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Thread: What Are You Going To Do about It?

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    Default Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Now to the contention of this ďegregious voter fraud and disenfranchisementĒ, Iím just not seeing it. I see a continuous stream of wild claims coming from the administration, and the new go to conservative sources of OAN and News Max, but nothing even close to showing me any direct evidence. Iím seeing these lawsuits getting retracted, thrown out of court, and the states are now beginning the certification process.
    Quote Posted by T Smith (here)
    Have you poured through this? I mean, really taken the time to go through it? None of this is evidence? Really?
    I went through a lot of that T Smith, and it's all the same kind of stuff I allude to above, which either Trump lawyers are retracting, or judge after judge is throwing out of court.

    I'm not saying there's zero evidence, but evidence to make this anything more than the Hail Mary of all Hail Mary's? Absolutely not, not even close. It's very difficult to show people the 500 pound gorilla in the room that's not really there.

    If this smoking gun is so obvious, Giulliani should be able to point to it with ease, and settle the matter forthwith.
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    Default Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    either Trump lawyers are retracting, or judge after judge is throwing out of court.
    To my understanding trump has mostly been going after 14th amendment claims.. aka "procedural" not fraud.

    Do you have examples of "judge after judge throwing something out of court"? or lawyers retracting (trump's team isn't in charge most the cases,, closer to half, but that's besides the point I suppose).

    law suits are expensive, better to work from procedure up and we have until the DEC 14th deadline, so plenty of time left.... I expect more legal actions to come and SCOTUS is very possible.

    I'd like to think my position is factually based, i have not seen judge after judge throw anything out that wasn't appealed and won, or currently still in appeal.
    Last edited by TargeT; 18th November 2020 at 22:24.
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    Default Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Now to the contention of this ďegregious voter fraud and disenfranchisementĒ, Iím just not seeing it. I see a continuous stream of wild claims coming from the administration, and the new go to conservative sources of OAN and News Max, but nothing even close to showing me any direct evidence. Iím seeing these lawsuits getting retracted, thrown out of court, and the states are now beginning the certification process.
    Quote Posted by T Smith (here)
    Have you poured through this? I mean, really taken the time to go through it? None of this is evidence? Really?
    I went through a lot of that T Smith, and it's all the same kind of stuff I allude to above, which either Trump lawyers are retracting, or judge after judge is throwing out of court.

    I'm not saying there's zero evidence, but evidence to make this anything more than the Hail Mary of all Hail Mary's? Absolutely not, not even close. It's very difficult to show people the 500 pound gorilla in the room that's not really there.

    If this smoking gun is so obvious, Giulliani should be able to point to it with ease, and settle the matter forthwith.
    Gracy May, I try to stay out of your way, but you are wrong on many levels about this.

    Thatís all Iím going to say because I will not engage with you in a pointless debate. Youíve made up your mind and Iíve made up mine.

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    Default Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)

    I'm not saying there's zero evidence, but evidence to make this anything more than the Hail Mary of all Hail Mary's? Absolutely not, not even close. It's very difficult to show people the 500 pound gorilla in the room that's not really there.
    Just some food for thought, Gracy... this sort of thing doesn't happen unless there is 500 pound gorilla in the room.

    This one county alone has enough vote discrepancies to flip the entire state of Michigan red.

    The key to your second point is getting access to the scene of the crime. So far the lower courts (largely partisan) have been reluctant to grant access to the room (where we would find real discovery). The process takes time. The motion for the kind of discovery you are alluding to will move up to the USSC. And if they allow access to the room we're not going to find a single 500 pound gorilla in there, but an entire jungle of them.

    Just my take... I'll back out now as I respect you see things differently.

    It should be interesting, though, to revisit this discussion in a few weeks or so...
    Last edited by T Smith; 19th November 2020 at 13:19.

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    Default Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?

    Quote Posted by Satori (here)
    Gracy May, I try to stay out of your way, but you are wrong on many levels about this.

    Thatís all Iím going to say because I will not engage with you in a pointless debate. Youíve made up your mind and Iíve made up mine.
    Maybe I am wrong about all this, but thus far I've seen no direct evidence to back up these extraordinary claims. Like the old saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    Counselor, like a dutiful juror, my mind is not made up. If the courts in this land acknowledge these supposedly obvious smoking guns all over the place, and if I can see the damning evidence myself to boot, then I will most certainly change my mind. That's what I've done, and even though I don't like him either, practically all the evidence I've seen thus far tells me Joe Biden won this election.

    Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what the trial judge wants, an impartial juror prepared to make a decision based on the preponderance of the evidence, not a juror who is only looking for evidence to confirm what they have believed all along should be the rightful outcome.

    I pretty much stand naked and alone here in my opinions on this matter. So be it, and that's fine. What worries me more and more these days though, is that in real life this may not be the safest place to stand any more, thus the inspiration for this thread. If the boys on horseback wind up riding in asking me "to hell with what the courts say, are you with the president or against him" (I live in deep red rural Kentucky), I'll give them the required lip service to make them happy and move on; if they say "join us or you're one of them", that's when it turns into "Gracy bar the door".

    You know the really scary thing? I'm actually seeing the dominos starting to fall that way, just like George W. looking at us and saying "either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists". It's starting to settle into my bones that this thing could easily turn bad, really bad, and that we're being led that way quite intentionally.

    I don't want to see that, but I see it anyway.

    Quote Posted by T Smith (here)
    Just some food for thought, Gracy... this sort of thing doesn't happen unless there is 500 pound gorilla in the room.

    This one county alone has enough vote discrepancies to flip the entire state of Michigan red.

    The key to your second point is getting access to the scene of the crime. So far the lower courts (largely partisan) have been reluctant to grant access to the room (where we would find real discovery). The process takes time. The motion for the kind of discovery you are alluding to will move up to the USSC. And if they allow access to the room we're not going to find a single 500 pound gorilla in there, but an entire jungle of them.

    Just my take... I'll back out now as I respect you see things differently.

    It should be interesting, though, to revisit this discussion in a few weeks or so...
    Thank you T Smith for always trying to keep our disagreements courteous and respectful. Hopefully it's noticed that I try and do the same.

    An AM talk show host I used to listen to all the time (Dennis Prager) used to advise something along the lines of "we never need agree on things, but we always need to show mutual respect".

    If we lose that then the talking is over, which leads to bad places.
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    Default Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?

    Gracy May said: "Maybe I am wrong about all this, but thus far I've seen no direct evidence to back up these extraordinary claims. Like the old saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    Counselor, like a dutiful juror, my mind is not made up. If the courts in this land acknowledge these supposedly obvious smoking guns all over the place, and if I can see the damning evidence myself to boot, then I will most certainly change my mind. That's what I've done, and even though I don't like him either, practically all the evidence I've seen thus far tells me Joe Biden won this election.

    Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what the trial judge wants, an impartial juror prepared to make a decision based on the preponderance of the evidence, not a juror who is only looking for evidence to confirm what they have believed all along should be the rightful outcome."

    A good lawsuit is not tried in the media. That is an exercise in futility and a lawyer can also run afoul of professional and ethical rules that apply to lawyers prohibiting too much being said or done outside a courtroom. Capable and competent lawyers know that. Such lawyers also do not show all their cards until in the courtroom.

    The evidence is there, and some of it has been provided in good faith by Trump's legal team to try to counteract the media's false claims that there is no evidence. The media seeks to try the cases in the public forum and rule that the cases should be dismissed. Fortunately our system is not designed or intended to work that way.

    You are clearly a bright and capable person. I have little to no doubt that if you were a juror or a judge, and the evidence and arguments of counsel were presented to you in the proper forum, i.e., a courtroom, and if you maintained your objectivity and were truly intent upon seeing that truth prevail and justice be done, which I believe you are, you would come to the conclusion that there is sufficient evidence that the election results are the product of fraud. You would fashion what you deem an appropriate remedy to rectify the fraud and spare the election results from the effects of the fraud.

    I have seen enough relevant, competent and admissible evidence from the public filings and other sources to lead me to conclude, not only by clear and convincing evidence, but beyond any reasonable doubt, that massive fraud occurred in the key states that are under scrutiny. And, again, as I have said in other posts, some of the best evidence of fraud is not complicated, and is undisputed. For instance, PA failure to follow the USSC's order to preserve and segregate the mail in ballots that came in after the polls were closed on 11/3/2020. The evidence that has been, and that will be presented in court, is sufficient for a judge, as there are no juries involved in these cases, to rule for Trump. (Which is not to say that they will do so and that he will prevail in the lower courts.) Whether some or all of the presiding judges will rule for Trump is an open question.

    No doubt, Trump has a very though roe to hoe. But I do respectfully disagree that this his is an extraordinary claim. And, further, the legal test is not extraordinary evidence. It is at most clear and convincing evidence, which is a lesser standard than beyond a reasonable doubt applied in criminal cases.

    Evidence of conspiracy of this magnitude is never easy. When it comes to the really big criminal conspiracies, the co-conspirators rarely spill the beans, confess guilt and identify the co-conspirators. (E., g, JFK, MLK, RFK, OK City bombing, 9/11....) That is one reason why the evidentiary rules and case law interpreting the rules permit circumstantial evidence to prove fraud. The judge is permitted to consider both the direct evidence and the circumstantial evidence and make reasonable inferences from all the evidence. The lawyers are entitled to argue what all the evidence means and convince the judge what he or she should rule.

    Also, importantly, experts are involved in these cases. Trump has experts. (Biden may too.) Experts are afforded a great deal of leeway when it comes to their opinion testimony and their conclusions of what the evidence proves. Experts can, among other things, consider any direct evidence, circumstantial evidence, learned treatises, and other relevant documents, and they can consider hearsay when rendering an opinion. They can also bring to bear their own professional experiences on the questions presented. The only limitation on experts is that they be qualified in the area that they are giving an opinion, and that their opinions be relevant and deemed reliable. The judge makes these calls. Judge usually allow a qualified expert's testimony and then give it whatever weight the judge deems appropriate. The judge's decision is subject to review by a higher court. You can be sure that Trump will preserve for review by a higher court all actions by the judges.

    All we can do at this time in connection with the legal proceedings is stay tuned. It ain't over til' it's over.

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    Default Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)

    What worries me more and more these days though, is that in real life this may not be the safest place to stand any more, thus the inspiration for this thread. If the boys on horseback wind up riding in asking me "to hell with what the courts say, are you with the president or against him" (I live in deep red rural Kentucky), I'll give them the required lip service to make them happy and move on; if they say "join us or you're one of them", that's when it turns into "Gracy bar the door".

    You know the really scary thing? I'm actually seeing the dominos starting to fall that way, just like George W. looking at us and saying "either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists". It's starting to settle into my bones that this thing could easily turn bad, really bad, and that we're being led that way quite intentionally.

    I don't want to see that, but I see it anyway.
    Sadly, your fears are not unfounded. But I don't see it quite in the same way. If there is line drawn in the sand demarcating the battle for the soul of the nation, be it real or abstract, I do not foresee those who engage in a fight for freedom forcing or enlisting innocents or those who disagree to choose a side. No one will declare you, Gracy May, the enemy for not embracing the cause, save for the other side of this fight employing its vast surveillance apparatus hunting for dissidents to silence and to gather up and to throw into concentration camps for either re-education or liquidation. You can see where my bias lies in how I see this going down. However, if tensions do reach that point where either of our fears play out, people may have no choice but to choose for themselves which uniform to wear... Perhaps this is what is what frightens you most? Which side to choose?

    Most of us are not willing to discuss these things in polite society, but the fact is our country is founded on the spirit of resistance. This notion is deeply seeded in our national consciousness. I need only quote the famous words of the 3rd President of our very young Republic:

    The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty (sounds like he was looking directly into a 2020 crystal ball to me)...(W)hat country can preserve itís (sic) liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is itís (sic) natural manure. Thomas Jefferson, 1787

    Again, it is somewhat taboo to discuss these things but this is exactly the discussion you have have solicited by starting this thread. You don't happen to believe (or are not yet convinced) that Tyrants have stolen the election and have disenfranchised the people, but there are 74 million people or so who profoundly disagree with you, including, in the latest poll, 30% of democrats. My guess is these numbers will continue to go up as the facts continue to come out. The question is, are We the People going to lay down to this coup d'etat of our Republic, our country, our freedoms, our way of life? It is clear to many (millions) that this country is at a crossroads and a global-Imperial force has just crossed the Rubicon.

    As I've said elsewhere, the remedy to avoid all of this "scary stuff" is a complete audit of the vote. If there is any goodwill at all--and if this isn't a hostile takeover, as you assert--why not just allow for an audit? Transparency and honesty makes this all go away, regardless who wins the vote. This is not about POTUS Trump or POTUSE Biden. If the perpetrators of the biggest (alledged) crime against the people of the United States in its history were to agree to a complete audit of the vote, you wouldn't need to worry about barring the door against the good ol' boys on horseback.

    But, as I and others assert, this is not a partisan dispute under the umbrella of our Constitutional Republic. This is a war on the Constitutional Republic, an invasion, a takedown, or so perceived by a large majority of We the People regardless of its degree of veracity.

    If this was not a takedown we would all agree to audit the vote and resolve the issue. But those waging this war won't agree to the audit because they are guilty. Local and State officials will not agree to the audit because they are guilty. The MSM/Alphabet Agencies will not push for or advocate for an audit, because they are co-conspirators and they are guilty. The certifiers of the vote will not agree to the audit because they are guilty. The lower courts will not agree to the audit because they are either co-conspirators and guilty or discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. The very last stopgap, the highest court in the land, may not have the authority or necessary remedy of justice in proportion to the crimes.

    In short, the system appears broken, which speaks directly to Thomas Jefferson's famous words above.

    I find it infinitely curious that our overlords take no issue auditing us plebs over every minor dispute or allegation of wrongdoing. You can be assured the IRS would demand an audit of the taxi driver's, grocery bagger's, or garbage man's finances who buys a 20-room mansion in the Hamptons, and who has not claimed sufficient income on his tax return to support his lifestyle.

    The results of this election--the results our conquerers are forcing us to believe--are equivalent of a part-time grocery bagger earning $10 an hour and using his wages to purchase a 20 million dollar estate. We the People demand an audit of our vote. Period.

    If there is no available remedy for this--as we are about to discover--Thomas Jefferson may not only be considered one of our most prominent Founding Fathers, but also an augur.
    Last edited by T Smith; 20th November 2020 at 22:25.

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    Default Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?

    So then, here we are again. Here's a metaphor describing the way I'm seeing this march towards civil war here in the States, a whole lot of things have to line up just right for this thing to go down: I bought my 6 number lotto ticket down at the corner store, and am watching the numbers being drawn. 1st number drawn, hey I got one already. #2, dang, another one. #3, wow, three in a row and I win $6! #4, that's four in a row and I just won $800. This is getting serious!

    They're just getting ready to show me #5, and I'm really paying attention now...

    Now in real life I'm not wanting a match on #5, but the way the stars are aligning just so, it almost seems preordained by this point, but there's still two more chances to slip onto the tracks of a slightly different timeline at the last minute.

    Back to subject at hand. As the stars continue to align, I'm noticing a very apparent trend towards violence may just be the only answer. Like finally being forced to stand up to the school yard bully. With the bully, violence pretty much stops when you haul off and give him a black eye or a fat lip.

    What about the kind of violence that might be required to settle matters in this election dispute? Are you looking to possibly think about taking matters into your own hands? If so, what are some options where you think you might make a difference? Join a militia for example? Strength in numbers? But still then, what might the militia decide to do about things? Hmmmmm, what to target... You tell me, whether you act on your own, or with a group.

    Or maybe you're more wanting the mass arrest thing, and not actually get involved yourself, just cheer it on. If you're in that camp, I'd like to dig a little deeper, and get an idea of how you might want that to look. Would this be like judges handing out arrest warrants to federal marshals, and the perps go straight to prison to await trial?

    Or maybe go the NDAA route, charge them as domestic terrorists, and march them straight through the gates of Gitmo for indefinite detention, or maybe a military when they get around to it? Or maybe something else, these are just two possibilities off the top of my head. Maybe Marshal Law a part of this?

    Or maybe this would not be enough of a future deterrence at this point. I'm seeing more and more people talking about public hangings live on the internet, heads on pikes, drawn and quartered and shot at dawn. Might acts like these be required to ensure this never happens again?

    So now that this thing is growing legs, and for a lot of people it's looking more and more like David Icke's "Something must be done!", what might be your role in doing something about it? Are you willing to get your own hands dirty (if so how), or would you rather stay in the bleachers (if so what do you want to witness)?

    Now someone earlier noted that they think I'm inciting people here. That's not at all what I'm doing! I saw this s##t quite possibly coming a long ways back, and the frustration and anger (or rage?) that would inevitably go along with a loss.

    And here we are. This is getting real...
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