Meritocracy: an alternative to Democracy?

[Bill Ryan]

One possible option is to make voting more difficult — NOT easier for everyone.

So only those who are highly motivated (and maybe smart enough to figure out how to get it done) would have their opinion counted. Casual voters who don't really care all that much might be kind of filtered out that way.

Of course, there are huge flaws with this, as with any scheme. (But it might contribute to the brainstorm)

[Michi]

My worry is the selection by "merit" only. If such chosen ones are only selected by university degree and achievements thru blackmail or "fitting in" or doing things for those who pay most - then we get more or less what we have - those governing a country.

No. There must be an equal factor of how altruistic those chosen ones are.

And by altruism I don't mean some twisted "best for all" idealism like Bill Gates is pushing.

The following article (not mine) proposes a type of "government" led by 7 ministers who are altruistic, aren't motivated by money or properties but dedicated to serve the people as a whole (not a party or class).

This is taken from https://paradigmenwechsel.weebly.com...ny_vs._0.1.pdf

Organization of the State

The society should be organized in such a way that at least the seven vital functions of an organism i.e. 1) formation, 2) information, 3) energy, 4) production, 5) quality, 6) international relations and 7) coordination are well covered. [ref.] The management or government of the (e)state will be assigned to seven ministries. The following merely gives the general idea of how these vital functions, could be covered. These functions are though logically arranged of course inclusive of all the functions traditionally assigned to government.

The ministry of formation

The purpose of the ministry of formation is to maintain the form as outlined in the constitution and the laws based on it. By form we mean the organizational embodiment of the principles. The ministry of formation is headed by the minister of formation who is personally responsible for finding suitable people to man the government in accordance with the provisions of the constitution. The ministry is responsible for the upkeep of public buildings.

Each person or citizen is accounted for and provided with an energy allotment to ensure they can live well. Each person can register their products in the national register, like the national library. Organizations and associations of individuals are registered as well as their purposes and products. Any such registers are accessible to everyone in the country.

The ministry is also responsible for establishing, maintaining, improving, correcting or repairing public communication systems infrastructures, public roads etc.

The third section is the maintenance of the laws and the administration of justice. An important part of the duties of this ministry is the maintenance of the regulations pertaining to the air, the waters and the land remaining free from pollution. Other duties are those of defense and any needed military actions to eliminate suppression of the national interests by inimical interests.

The ministry of information

The purpose of the ministry of information is to provide the necessary facilities, people and cooperatives involved in providing the nation with current, up-to-date and vital information about what is going on nationally and internationally. Formerly there were a few corporations, financed by foreign interests (example Bill Gates) which exercised their control over what people should know and what not, resulting in long term disinformation.

The ministry of information sees to it that censorship and the old ‘lying press’ syndrome will never repeat its unsavory history. Public TV stations were mainly outlets for politicians and party propaganda. Accurate information should be freely shared and available to all, viewpoints and opinions that differ from what is held by a majority, must not be suppressed and should be considered an essential part of a dialectic process of communication, review and counter review.

Every person citizen has a personal node on the internet, by which he or she can communicate their affairs, desires, offerings and opinions. And the same goes for groups and associations of people.

The ministry of energy

The purpose of the ministry of energy is to replace the former finance ministry and establish and maintain a public, state owned national bank with the exclusive right to issue interest free currency. This ministry will be entrusted to organize the liquidation of the public debt and the orderly transition from a debt based ‘money’ system via a gold and/or asset backed system to a modern information money system. Energy is the basic constituent of everything. People, land, buildings, machines and objects all operate on energy i.e. are more or less stable energy configurations and/or users of energy. Money has for a long time been functioning as an energy pump, due to the fact that people were entrained to use their talents in order to gain sufficient money to satisfy their appetites and even to survive in the old system’s societies. The allotment of natural resources belongs here too.

Energy needs inflow and outflow as well as adjustment, such coordinative tasks resort under the Ministry of Energy. This includes food stuffs as well as other mobile items.

The ministry of production

The purpose of the ministry of production is to organize and guide any and all types of production of artifacts (factories, handwork, and industry) which may include works of art. Anything created by people, which includes intangibles, is basically a transformation of energy. The idea is to use production to raise our standards of living and obtain higher levels of wellbeing, comfort, understanding, consciousness, cooperation and harmony from bed socks to improved air conditioning gadgets, new types of computers or entire buildings created by the architects amongst us.

The ministry of quality

The primary purpose of this ministry is to work diligently on and facilitate raising the quality of life for all of us. This is done by holding standards and by raising standards. There must be facilities to correct things, to maintain the general health of the population. The medical pharmaceutical establishment, the old now dissolved cartel, is to be re-organized in a holistic sense and anyone who comes up with usable cures for illnesses is going to be tested by this ministry and if successful made available to the entire population. The old medical doctors’ monopoly and prerogatives are abolished, without lowering any standards are lowered. A surgeon better be fully trained and capable of doing that job in accordance with the highest standards. The scope of the education or training should match the type of activity and be determined base on what is needed; there is for example no need to train for 8 years in order to give an injection. Health practitioners are paid for their services when their treatments are successful. Psychiatric institutions, would be instructed to do their best to rehabilitate or care for any insane people.

Overall this ministry makes sure that the government as a whole remains a learning organization and that the use of AI will always be subservient to the people’s interests.

The ministry of international relations

The purpose of this ministry is to maintain relations with other nations in such a way as to prevent conflict and war and enhance cooperation between nations. All export activities come under this minister. They compose proposed contracts and treaties with other nations.

The ministry of coordination

This is the ministry which carries the full responsibility for the harmonious functioning of all the other ministries combined and thus of the whole nation. It is in that sense the most important ministry which carries the highest authority in the nation it is run by the nation’s people with the highest qualifications. It is headed by a president chosen in accordance with the procedures established by the constitution. This ministry is constituted as a corporation sole, which holds the ownership of all the land and the natural resources. The current president is the office holder. The president as goes for all ministers is fully accountable towards the people.

[Agape]

What I’ve seen practically works here in India but it does work well quite the same way across the globe is localised governance.
In India every village or group of villages has local “Panchayat” that is theoretically five elders who usually include local priest, the wealthiest person in the village, school teacher and couple 80 year olds who are in their sharpest while in retirement, for example, who decide important matters in the village.
One of them reports to a district committee , not more than once or twice a year or as required.

Similarly, governors of districts are elected by people who know them, their character from grass root ecosystems and report their problems and activities to the central government.

I’m not suggesting it works quite as it should as the older system has been hijacked by modern idea of mostly bipartisan elections, right and the left etc.

In reality: bipartisan politics that fills pages and pages of arguments on media and stirs endless debate is only an academically solution.

In reality we are one people under the Sun and have to be able to take certain decisions together, without egotism and sacrificing some comforts on behalf of the bigger whole. So it depends upon all of us whether we are able to live together and how.
The debate never ends, whether our grandfathers were Muslim or Christian, Democrats or Republicans , Catholics vs Protestants , the Always Right, those seldom Right and those who Left ,
they are expressions of mentalities of their times and academic construct.

Bipartity implies polarity and division and oath to the game of divide and conquer unless it ends better way, this time ..

as human society is obviously in long term process of evolution, experimentation of social systems taking leaps ahead where we have never seen.

How far are we really from establishing an equilibrium on the globe that would mean peace, understanding g and no meanness ?
How far are we from our true place in the Universe ?


🙏🌟🦢

[TomKat]

Posted by palehorse (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
..
The HUGE counter-question, of course, is how all that should be judged and measured. How to avoid corruption, elitism and prejudice? There's no easy answer.
..

1. Are all voters equally qualified to formally cast their opinion?
2. If not, how does one measure and judge them to enable them to qualify?
3. Or is that impossible?
4. Or if it is possible, should that ever ethically be done?

Most people in this planet are poor, they barely survive on a minimum wage, how all these people would fit in a meritocratic system? I guess they won't.

True, but how much poverty is by choice? i.e., having children they can't afford?

[Ernie Nemeth]

These elitist considerations is a big part of the problem with a meritocracy. You cannot set out guidelines for merit until there are distinct and well spelled out fundamental tenets to direct such selections. If you think it is possible to just jump right into a meritocracy without the prevailing cognitive biases having been addressed you will end up back in this very situation at some time in the future. It is impossible to be fair in a system that is anything but. If you think it is possible you are not alone. Chairman Mao thought so too. Eugenisists thought it was so. Myanmar also. And the Soviet Union. And the Democrats in America today.

Trying to fix the problem on the same level of the problem will never work.

There are basic flaws in our society that blocks our ability to even consider a truly different approach, a new way, a fair and equitable solution.

We immediately think of the many ways a system can be used for one's own betterment. How the lazy will take advantage. How the unworthy will get what they do not deserve. That what we have carved out of this system might be taken away from us. That we will enable the poor and destitute. We do not want others to benefit from our hard work. Yet even today the Americans want to do just that with 15,000,000 illegal aliens in their country and a large portion of the populace think it is a great idea! That is the thinking in today's world.

And it is this thinking that drives the dialog, even here.

The positive is overshadowed by our skepticism, by our experiences that have colored our belief in others. Through these colored glasses we see only what we have seen and expect to see, as guided by the past. But it is the past we are trying to escape. We cannot use the same group-think that brought us to this point, to see us through it successfully.

We need a new way, a better way, a way that allows everyone to excel. And the wealthy nations of earth, that have used the system to their advantage, and exploited the third world to destitution and beyond, are complicit and must hold themselves accountable.

We owe the world, not reparations, but to guide them out of the mess we put them in.

Speaking of who is worthy of merit is a rabbit hole with no possible equitable solution without again leaving some out of the process. And people who are left out of the system always makes those so disenfranchised into radicals with a need to plan their revenge. And they always resort to violence.

The violence must be met with more violence and more incarceration and executions. This just steels the next generation to more extreme measures, like the tide of illegal immigrants now flooding into the nations of the west from the third world. Radicalized and bereft, these have only one goal in their new countries: burn, burn, burn!

So when the discussion turns to who is worthy of merit, remember that if not handled correctly all you are doing is setting up a minority for radicalization and inviting death and suffering to your own door.

[happyuk]

I would say that as a population evolves, the need for government becomes less.
A society of morons and unthinking people will never establish a true Democracy.
The average man is lazy, cannot think clearly, gives up too easily and is ruled by his emotions - he needs the master brain of a dictator in order to do the right things.

Once the mass of people within a nation become uniformly educated and spiritually evolved then a Democracy of universal wisdom and agreement naturally evolves.
They will then become able to govern themselves spontaneously according to universal laws. Dictators will become unnecessary.

As an example, I would say one wise Dictator, like that of a Roosevelt or Trump, does more good than the too many cooks of career politicians and other weak little men. Much is discussed but very little of lasting benefit is accomplished with these kinds of people.

What we see happening are the growing pains of a nation that has to undergo republicanism, dictatorships, capitalism, and other 'isms' which are necessary for its growth.

[Michi]

As I am just watching a very interesting documentation on German TV, called "Powers of Billionaires" I come to understand one the the biggest flaws in politics of western civilizations.
It's called
Lobbying
In politics, lobbying, persuasion, or interest representation is the act of lawfully attempting to influence the actions, policies, or decisions of government officials, most often legislators or members of regulatory agencies.


Those lobbyists are not wise, educated masters necessarily. It's just a dirty money business and not only the western government systems are rigged that politicians listen to them instead to the public.
The above is democracy - so not exactly answering the threads theme, but there could be a danger that meritocracy could fall in the same trap.

[palehorse]

Posted by TomKat (here)

Posted by palehorse (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
..
The HUGE counter-question, of course, is how all that should be judged and measured. How to avoid corruption, elitism and prejudice? There's no easy answer.
..

1. Are all voters equally qualified to formally cast their opinion?
2. If not, how does one measure and judge them to enable them to qualify?
3. Or is that impossible?
4. Or if it is possible, should that ever ethically be done?

Most people in this planet are poor, they barely survive on a minimum wage, how all these people would fit in a meritocratic system? I guess they won't.

True, but how much poverty is by choice? i.e., having children they can't afford?

Sure many did by choice, but it is highly related to the educational system we have in place today, or better saying the lack of an "educational system". Properly educated people will practice mindfulness and kindness and will be leaded to a better way of life. What I mean is: we can not blame people alone for the massive mess this world became, our "leaders" should have done a better work instead, but since everything is so twisted now, seems like all values are inverted, I really do not know if there is a short term solution for that anymore, in the long term I have hope it can be fixed but it will require massive changes in the current system.

In the slums in Brazil, Bangladeshi, India and other parts of the world, there is no words to describe the horror of the situation, some families with 15 members, it is basically 1 baby per year per mother, young girls as young as 14 or 15 (at least look like) already pregnant, a lot of this people has no birth certificate and in average they will spend the rest of their lives in the slums (it is a growing problem), others take advantage of the social benefits paid by the government, Brazil is one hell of example for what I know, other countries in development I do not know if they have the same sort of social benefits.. by the way criminals in Brazil get arrested and the police has no clue who they are, because they have no identity, were never officially registered, born into crime, become a criminal, drug dealer, killer and God know what else. Some of these criminals will stand in court with no records, no birth contract with the government, no way possible to identify who is the subject and very often they are just released and back into crime.

This is one part of the problem that leaders turned a blind eye, let alone society, they hate poor people, it is always been about status, I am not generalizing it, I am 100% positive there is good mindful people anywhere in the world rich or poor.

In a few words: Governments allow the ongoing situation when they "reward the victim of the system instead of educate them properly" this is big business as usual to keep people under their stand.

--------------------------------------
now back to the democracy x meritocracy

The government functions will probably be replaced by code in the future, algorithms would be a distributed direct democracy where each and every people vote in an idea or propose their own (if allowed) and forming what is known as representativeless government.

People could score in this system only when providing ideas to be voted and create a reward system based on acceptance, but then could be large groups shifting the direction of the votes/ideas, there is no easy solution for democracy or meritocracy, but a blend of both would make a lot more sense of what we have currently in place. Politicians has no experience or meaning understanding science and technology, they are a way out of this league.

There would be obvious challenges like:
- social inclusion in the new system (everybody forced in or what?).
- people not having a fully knowledge of the problem before providing their ideas/votes, so what, junk data would be inevitable? there would have a great filter to keep garbage away.
- who would be overseeing the entire system (AI ? backed by private company or people (open source) ?)
- who would be enabled to draw a proposal to the system? The educated ones?
- continuous voting system and not every 4 years, we arrived at the point we need changes every day and not every 4 years, as we know the next presidents always put the previous projects in the trash can!

This structure would work completely decentralized and distributed with no central point of failure hence representativeless government and it would need an human unique identification (dna) which is exactly what Bill Gates is doing with their HUID.

I know the idea is quite crazy, but there is people in technology pushing it forward, project Cicada is one that comes to mind, I am not sure if they still active, it was long time ago when I last read their proposals also there is another project called DemocracyOS and bit congress or something like that..

There is good and evil intentions on building projects like that, and no easy solution for the problem, but I believe we are going to see a very clear picture of it after the end of the scamdemic.

[Anchor]

What measures of merit will apply?

If you set the merit bar really low - for example being a citizen of the state in which the election is taking place and being over 18, there isn't much difference between meritocracy and democracy (if your point of view is restricted to who can vote).

So, how do you raise the bar? What qualities are you looking for?


Isn't China's system a meritocracy?

[Bruce G Charlton]

My strong feeling is that lack of merit is not the problem as of 2023 in The West.

The deepest problem is in people's motivations - that they want wrong things; and this especially applies to the leadership/ managerial/ intellectual class, including many of those with above-average intelligence.

A further problem is that voting, as a form of decision-making, is immoral; since it leads to lack of responsibility for decisions (and, indeed, can lead - mathematically - to decisions that no individual voter regards as optimal, or even correct: this was explained by Nobel Laureate economist Kenneth Arrow some 60 years ago).

Groups-as-such (with very few historical exceptions - and only small groups) are not wise or well-motivated, nor are they moral; only (some) individuals.

Large groups (as in elections) are never wise/ well-motivated/ moral!

Whatever 'system' we have ought to link power to personal responsibility in ways that are - in practice - almost impossible for systems including voting.

[ExomatrixTV]

• Democracy: Stick a fork in it, it's done

[rgray222]

You could actually make a case that meritocracy does exist in the USA, given the fact that it is a Constitutional Republic and not a pure democracy. Also, the president of the USA is elected through the electoral college and not the popular vote.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=wbsfpeMELGE

Of course, there have to be fairly rigid guidelines on the eligibility of voters. This has been under attack in the USA for the last 12 years. Many many states allow voting without any ID cards, and many states have adopted mail-in balloting, same-day registration, and unsecured ballot drop boxes which expose the vote to fraud and corruption The political left has also taken control of counting and auditing of votes and deny the opposition voting clerks opportunities to verify the count and the process. If this does not change voting in the USA will collapse and the republic is will be in danger of destruction.