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Thread: US Election: the Legal Challenge

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    Avalon Member Satori's Avatar
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    Default US Election: the Legal Challenge

    I'm going to be as succinct as I possibly can.

    Trump won the election. The forces of evil are attempting to steal the election. They may succeed. They started that process and the related programs of "winning" in 2020 the moment Trump defeated Clinton in 2016, if not before.

    The United States Supreme Court (USSC) will decide the outcome of the 2020 election. If Biden "wins", the legal presumption (versus the actual facts) will be that the results are fair and accurate. The burden of proof will be on Trump to prove voter fraud and overcome the legal presumption(s). A heavy burden indeed. At least meeting the legal standard of clear and convincing evidence of fraud will be required.

    Stepping back a bit, what Trump did was unforgettable and unforgiveable to "them" (or "they"). Among other things, he broke the chain of criminality beginning at least with the Kennedy assassination and carrying forward to daddy Bush and the Reagan administration, daddy Bush's 4-year term as POTUS (daddy Bush was POTUS for 12 years, 8 years de facto and 4 years de jure), then passing the baton to Bill Clinton, then to his son Bush [the simple], and on to Obama [the usurper and fraud]. Trump committed the ultimate sin: he was not a political hack, going along to get along who could be bought and controlled. This is true whether you like him or not. Be honest with yourself at least.

    He also exposed" them" for what "they" are, and he answered, and put faces on, the heretofore unanswered question of who "they'" and 'them" are. Indeed, they willingly exposed themselves in their hubris and zeal to destroy Trump in particular, and Patriots in general. Because of Trump (and his allies) any right-minded, thinking person knows who "they" are--at least many of "them."

    Also, and significantly, please understand that while not unimportant, the office of POTUS is not--standing alone-- nearly as important as is Congress; especially when coupled with the USSC. That is part of the genius of the Founding Fathers of this Republic: Tri-Camera and co-equal branches of federal/national government and check and balances. (To say nothing at all about the other two branches of national government; the States and most important of all, the People--the true source of all legitimate authority.)

    Regardless of the outcome of the 2020 POTUS election, in the Senate (and possibly in the House and thus Congress as a whole), and in the USSC, Patriots outnumber traitors and criminals. This is in large measure due to Trump. Also, thanks in large measure to Trump and fellow Patriots, we now know, in most cases, who is who (Patriot vs. traitor). At least this is true to a large extent in the USA. There are now faces and names to the traitors and to the Patriots.

    Whatever the USSC does, all is not lost. Much has been gained. This must be kept in mind at all times.

    Regardless of what the USSC does, the Republic will stand. It is more united now than ever before. The forces of evil are largely exposed, their programs and plans are clear for all to see. Patriots everywhere are joined in a common cause with a renewed and rejuvenated strength and vigor. The Giant Within has been aroused and awakened. Not only in the US of A, but around the World.

    Far from dividing America, the forces of evil have solidified the resolve and conviction of the Patriots of America, and the World, to let Freedom and Liberty ring everywhere.

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    I took the liberty of copying this very valuable post from here, to start this new thread. I suspect it may be needed in the next couple of months.

    I have one two-part question for Satori, which may be easy for him to answer. (But be gentle on him if you have questions yourself! )
    • In your personal opinion, how long do you think the legal process may take?
    • If it extends beyond the inauguration date, what happens?

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    Avalon Member Satori's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    I took the liberty of copying this very valuable post from here, to start this new thread. I suspect it may be needed in the next couple of months.

    I have one two-part question for Satori, which may be easy for him to answer. (But be gentle on him if you have questions yourself! )
    • In your personal opinion, how long do you think the legal process may take?
    • If it extends beyond the inauguration date, what happens?
    Bill,

    Thank you for starting this thread. I will do my level best to answer your questions, as well as any other questions that may be put to me.

    I will begin by a disclaimer: I do not have a much experience in the area of election law. I do, however, know how to read, interpret and understand statutes, regulations, codes and case law. I am committed to drilling down and researching this area of the law and weighing in as we go along. I sincerely hope to add value to the discussion.

    The first question posed is my personal opinion about how long I think the legal process may take?

    My answer is that, in my opinion, Trump would like to have the legal issues resolved (in his favor of course) before 12/14/2020, which if I recall correctly is the date the electors of the electoral college are to casts their votes. Trump would like to flip the votes in the swing states that are the subject of the voter fraud allegations so that he wins those states and the electors in the electoral college from those states also cast their votes for Trump. This would give Trump the presumptive win as a matter of fact and law and shift the burden of proof and persuasion to Biden to overturn Trump's victory.

    On the other hand, Biden et al. will want to delay any final decision by the USSC past 12/14/2020. I say this because Biden et al. expect the electoral votes in the contested states to be cast in his favor giving him the "win" and he would, as a presumptive factual and legal matter, want those votes to carry whatever weight they will have in the federal court proceedings and ultimately in the USSC.

    I pause to focus for a moment on the electoral college. I'm going to bone up on that. But, it is my understanding that the electors of a state are not required by law to cast their votes in accordance with the tally of the popular vote. So, the mechanics of, and law governing, the electoral college (EC) is something that we should look into. What are the odds of the EC casting enough votes for Trump to give him the win? I do not know. It may be a long shot.

    In the final analysis the USSC will decide the matter before 1/20/2021. How much before, is hard to say.

    (As I was typing this it has been declared by the media that Biden is the president elect, having "won" Pennsylvania.)

    I do not know the answer as a legal matter to the second question: what happens if the USSC does not decide the issue before inauguration scheduled for 1/20/2021? In my opinion, that is not likely to happen. I believe the USSC will act before then. (If not, can that date be moved?)

    To my knowledge there is no USSC precedent for this situation. If it can be viewed as such, the nearest precedent we have to the present situation is the 2000 election. That was decided by the USSC before inauguration in January 2001.

    Ultimately, the timing of the final legal result will be a function of how vigorously Trump and his team are able to push the challenges through the various administrative and bureaucratic processes in each state where the vote is being challenged to enable them to get into the federal court in each district, and then get the cases before the USSC. Biden's team will likely operate in a dilatory manner to slow the process down, but they will also seek to defeat Trump on the merits of his claims of voter fraud and invoke every factual and legal presumption in favor of the claimed Biden victory.

    I'm going to get to work and do some drilling down on federal election law and the electoral college.
    Last edited by Satori; 7th November 2020 at 17:39.

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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    Quote Posted by Satori (here)

    I pause to focus for a moment on the electoral college. I'm going to bone up on that. But, it is my understanding that the electors of a state are not required by law to cast their votes in accordance with the tally of the popular vote. So, the mechanics of, and law governing, the electoral college (EC) is something that we should look into. What are the odds of the EC casting enough votes for Trump to give him the win? I do not know. It may be a long shot.
    It is my understanding that the Legislature of each state appoints, by vote, the electors that will cast their votes for the POTUS. For example, the State of Michigan has 16 electoral votes. The Michigan Legislature convenes on December 6 to appoint its 16 electors. The Michigan Legislature, which is controlled by the Republican Party, can theoretically and legally, per the US Constitution, appoint electors who will cast their votes for Trump, if so inclined. The popular vote in Michigan, held a month prior, merely provides an indicator as to how these electors should cast their votes, but does not require them to vote for the mob-rule. This remedy in the US Constitution is specifically designed to address the very crisis we are now seeing unfold.

    I agree it is unlikely, because the Republican legislations likely do not have the spine to ever do this. But it is a remedy, especially if it becomes 100% clear to the American people that they are getting 100% steamrolled and f$%#$d by the DNC mafia crime cabal, which includes MSM, Big/Tech, Communist China, etc.

    In my opinion, for that remedy to ever happen the narrative contrary to the drivel put out by MSM would have to be so overwhelming and pervasive as to embolden the (often soft and go-along-to-get-along State legislator politicians) to do such a thing. If we had Trump-like politicians across the board it would be no-brainer. But we don't.

    We are in an infowar now, and it's imperative to spread the facts. But that is an uphill battle given the censorship, propaganda, and 100% fake news.

    We shall see how this plays out as Big Tech/MSM throws its victory party.

    EDIT: UPDATE: I stand corrected on my assumption that electors can cast a vote for POTUS contrary to the popular vote, as Satori points out here.

    However, if Steve Bannon is correct, there is another Constitutional remedy, discussed here.
    Last edited by T Smith; 7th November 2020 at 19:00.

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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    As a complete law idiot, I ask, can the supreme court, on the presentation of evidence that gross vote count fraud took place, cancel the whole thing and start again, and grant extended time to do so ?
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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    Well, I drilled down on the electoral college issue I touched upon in my prior post. There is nothing to be found there to help Trump. Interestingly enough, on 7/6/2020 the USSC by 9/0 answered the question and probably settled it forever.

    In Chiafalo v. Washington, a case arising from the 2016 election when 10 of Washington State's 12 elector's were "unfaithful" or "faithless" and refused to cast their votes for Clinton, the USSC held that electors of a State must cast their votes in accordance with their pledge to follow the popular vote of their State, and that they can be compelled to do so and sanctioned for failing to do so. In ruling in favor of the State of Washington, the USSC stated:

    "The Electors' constitutional claim has neither text nor history on its side. Article II and the Twelfth Amendment give States broad power over electors, and give electors themselves no rights. Early in our history, States decided to tie electors to the presidential choices of others, whether legislatures or citizens. Except that legislatures no longer pay a role, that practice has continued for more than 200 years. Among the devices States have long used to achieve their object are pledge laws, designed to impress upon electors their roles as agents of others. A State follows in the same tradition if, like Washington, it chooses to sanction an elector for breaching his promise. Then too, the State instructs its electors that they have no ground for reversing the vote of millions of its citizens. That direction accords with the Constitution--as well as with the trust of a Nation that here, We the People rule. Opinion, pp. 17-18.

    Here's the decision: https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/06/polit...urt/index.html (It starts on the second page of the link.)

    It now comes down to Trump establishing, if he can, to the satisfaction of the USSC that "... the trust of the Nation here, We the People [,]" was misplaced and breached due to voter fraud.

    Unless the tally of electoral college votes can be changed to Trump having 270 or more of the votes, and setting aside additional chicanery (much of which has been touched upon), Biden will occupy the position of POTUS.

    God help us all.
    Last edited by Satori; 7th November 2020 at 18:56.

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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    Here is the the USSC 2000 decision in the legal battle between Gore and Bush. It likely has some precedential value today.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-949.ZPC.html

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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    Quote Posted by norman (here)
    As a complete law idiot, I ask, can the supreme court, on the presentation of evidence that gross vote count fraud took place, cancel the whole thing and start again, and grant extended time to do so ?
    I doubt that will be the ruling by the USSC. That opens up others line of Constitutional issues that the USSC will not want to get into. But who knows?

    If the USSC is convinced voter fraud occurred and is convinced where and how the fraud occurred, it will most likely order that the fraudulent votes not be counted and the the vote count be based upon the remaining legitimate votes. It may also order that votes that were not counted or ballots that were "undercounted" be counted. Assuming they can be located.

    BTW--the USSC does not take the evidence in the first instance. The evidence is and must be presented at the lower level, including administrative and judicial proceedings. That evidence will constitute the record evidence before the USSC.

    Biden's handlers strategy was and is to cast fraudulent votes, undercount Trump's votes and ram the vote counting process full steam ahead, claim the victory and put the burden of proof and persuasion on Trump to show the fraud.

    The federal judiciary must not let provable voter fraud get a free pass. This will go to the USSC. But,....?
    Last edited by Satori; 7th November 2020 at 19:41.

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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    Quote Posted by Satori (here)

    BTW--the USSC does not take the evidence in the first instance.


    Getting legal action moving, then, sounds like trying to launch a moon shot from an underground car park.
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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    Quote Posted by T Smith (here)
    Trump has not yet lost.
    Maybe - but, does the Republican party want to be drawn into a protracted legal effort with an iffy chance of winning - or blame past misdemeanors on Trump, and focus on regrouping and rebuilding post-Trump for 4 years time?

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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    This twitter thread supplements what Satori has shared

    https://twitter.com/APhilosophae/sta...35291791839232

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...791839232.html

    And it may address some questions that Gracy May asked, as well.

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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    Quote Posted by norman (here)
    Quote Posted by Satori (here)

    BTW--the USSC does not take the evidence in the first instance.


    Getting legal action moving, then, sounds like trying to launch a moon shot from an underground car park.
    The legal action is moving and well under way. Using your analogy, the task will be to land the lunar module and bring it back home again. Not impossible, but difficult. It can be done. Will it be done? That will fall on the Trump legal team and ultimately the USSC.

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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    Quote Posted by safara (here)
    Quote Posted by T Smith (here)
    Trump has not yet lost.
    Maybe - but, does the Republican party want to be drawn into a protracted legal effort with an iffy chance of winning - or blame past misdemeanors on Trump, and focus on regrouping and rebuilding post-Trump for 4 years time?
    I honestly do not know. We are talking about a party that resisted Trump tooth and nail, but is also feckless and obsolete without him. Secretly, 80% of them are swamp creatures who despise him, and who are content to enrich themselves while selling out their country men and women.

    It is times like this when one discovers who are genuine and who are enemies.

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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    Quote Posted by norman (here)
    As a complete law idiot, I ask, can the supreme court, on the presentation of evidence that gross vote count fraud took place, cancel the whole thing and start again, and grant extended time to do so ?
    This is a question many people of good conscience are asking: Surely with the level of doubt over this election, being such a critical matter, there should be a nullification of this election, and another election held to clear any possibility of malpractice?

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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    Regarding the Electoral College, it may have worked for the founding fathers in that they sited the general citizenry's lack of knowledge for the reason for establishing an electoral college. However, it serves no purpose today. We elect governors, senators, congress men and women by popular vote. It should be the same for the office of the president. That's something we can all probably agree upon.

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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    Quote Posted by norman (here)
    As a complete law idiot, I ask, can the supreme court, on the presentation of evidence that gross vote count fraud took place, cancel the whole thing and start again, and grant extended time to do so ?
    In 2000 the Supreme Court ruled in favour of Bush Jr, even though there was no legal basis for them deciding an election, and they even said at the time that their decision would not be a precedent for future decisions. So, yeah, they got away with it, and they might again.

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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    ...

    ... interesting observation by Charlie (~ 11:35): President statement backed by flags with no gold fringes... something's afoot!

    Last edited by Gwin Ru; 8th November 2020 at 14:52.

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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    this gonna be great thread only talk about legal perspective....

    alot of people saying Trump have no evidence or need evidence but i think he might have evidence, have known for long time and expected something going on this election and on election day trump saying something about the ballot appear at 4am. Trump might have something in his sleeve




    Quote “A full audit is absolutely necessary, we should get injunctions if necessary. And if I have to do it, I’ll fight on the floor of the House of Representatives to stop the electoral college from being certified. We only need one senator to join to ensure that that challenge will then be subject to a full vote of the Congress and the Senate.”
    https://www.mediaite.com/election-20...ing-certified/

    this gonna be interesting show...If i do what mainstream said "put thin foil hat" on and i do think Biden already chosen one because Dems platform are so closed to Elites Agenda like great reset...

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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    Quote Posted by apokalypse (here)
    this gonna be great thread only talk about legal perspective....

    alot of people saying Trump have no evidence or need evidence but i think he might have evidence, have known for long time and expected something going on this election and on election day trump saying something about the ballot appear at 4am. Trump might have something in his sleeve




    Quote “A full audit is absolutely necessary, we should get injunctions if necessary. And if I have to do it, I’ll fight on the floor of the House of Representatives to stop the electoral college from being certified. We only need one senator to join to ensure that that challenge will then be subject to a full vote of the Congress and the Senate.”
    https://www.mediaite.com/election-20...ing-certified/

    this gonna be interesting show...If i do what mainstream said "put thin foil hat" on and i do think Biden already chosen one because Dems platform are so closed to Elites Agenda like great reset...
    There is much evidence of voter fraud. One question is: will that evidence be admitted into evidence in the administrative and judicial proceedings, if it is, will the judge(s) give it any weight or the weight it deserves? In other words, can Trump’s legal team create a sufficient evidentiary record of voter fraud and will the judges let the evidence in and consider it?

    Trump can try and he can create a record of judicial and/or administrative error if relevant and reliable evidence is excluded. Those errors can be reviewed by a higher court, including the USSC.

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    Default Re: US Election: the Legal Challenge

    here's an interesting list of current litigation for experts or have good knowledge out there....

    https://www.scotusblog.com/election-litigation/

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