Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

[Catsquotl]

Trying not to get hung up on Buddhism,
But in their basic concentration training, that is the anapanasati sutta based meditations.
There are 8 very well defined and reproducible states of consciousness to be experienced with fairly well defined characteristics.
Usually the first four are called by their number.
From the 5th though the are named after impressions of the experience itself.
5 being boundless space, 6 boundless consciousness, 7 nothingness and 8 neither perception nor yet non-perception.


Just based on these names we I think I see where Alastair Forsythe is getting his insight/experience from. Now whether he got his insight or arguments from doing formal practices or not is irrelevant.
What matters is that these mindstates are real and experience.


There's a few well defines nana's states when doing formal insight practises like Vipassana as well.
I realize that buddhism is a put off for some. That doesn't mean we cannot use experiences had and discovered by buddhist to contemplate these matters because it's also an older religion is it?
The wealth of information and knowledge is astounding. As are the ways one can get to these experiences for ones self.


As an example, say one meditates and finds himself in the realm of nothingness. Only upon leaving will he/she be able to think about what they just experienced.
When it is time to mingle back into life again. He/she has experienced that nothing truly exists. not karma, not samsara.. nothingness is a reality for him or her at a deep experiential level.


having to do groceries afterwards is the most wondrous experience of all. because the nothingness makes way for a new although very familiar somewhat boring and tedious chore.
kamma and samsara in my experience is nothing more than the tension between what one knows. (nothingness is an experiential reality) and finding ones mind wandering off during the grocery shopping afterwards..


kamma and samsara are nothing more elaborate that that, they don't exist, but we experience them every day in their simplest (and for me only form)due to the way our minds work.
if I do my shopping every other day, or weekly or less. my mind will discover the pattern and call it cyclical. My mind will contemplate the events and how I feel about them and when i forget the co-dependency between past experiences and impressions and current events I may even call it kamma.


With Love
Eelco

[Innocent Warrior]

Perhaps it would be more productive to have a dialogue on how to apply the realisation presented in the OP, rather than trying to force a discussion in a specific direction.

You could begin by addressing the replies that disagree with the OP as a starting point for polishing the OP, it could do with a polishing up and that would be a cohesive way to explore and then pinpoint or sharpen the focus of the desired discussion. A dialogue will allow a collaborative flow and provide an agreed upon starting point to begin exploring ways to apply the knowledge.

I see that we misapply knowledge, it’s used like a tool box to decide who is right, what is right, figure **** out, win arguments etc. May I suggest applying it differently. See it as a download that upgrades your awareness but then leave it at that and move forward perceiving what is in the moment with that knowledge incorporated into the awareness, and then move on to how to actually apply what’s been learned. We know that realisations expand our awareness but they don’t actually materialise until we act. As an example; seeing reality as illusory doesn’t automatically free us from our minds/thought.

But as I said, a collaboration is required here, otherwise individuals will wisely resist incorporating it into their awareness and the knowledge will remain misapplied.

There’s no need to shut down the thread, hence shut down participating members. Lighten up, explore, have some fun with it.

[Constance]

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[Catsquotl]

Posted by Constance (here)

If people want to debate the truth of what was shared in the OP, it means that they are not open to it. If people cannot feel the inevitability of what was shared, it all just becomes a war of words and a clash of intellect.

I didn't share what I shared so that people could debate it or so that the message could be modified or diluted

Why didn't you say so in the first place? Could have saved us both a lot of time..
Your first statement is a bit much, even disrespectful, but it's a great reminder if I ever wonder if I should engage in conversation with you again..

[Constance]

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[Catsquotl]

Posted by Constance (here)

Posted by Catsquotl (here)

Why didn't you say so in the first place?

It should all go without saying but as it turns out, I eventually did have to say something.

Posted by Catsquotl (here)
Your first statement is a bit much, even disrespectful, but it's a great reminder if I ever wonder if I should engage in conversation with you again..

If you felt it was disrespectful, you have misunderstood the spirit in which I am coming from.

It should go without saying that a rant by someone else about 2 big words in the spiritual community should be accepted as a lovely outpouring of your heart without any discernment or regard of 2500 years of research on a forum that thanks it's existence due to people exploring Truth ??
You kinda lost me there.


I do think I am getting a handle on the spirit from which you come.
I'm just not buying it.
As it stands disrespectful is an understatement.


But then it's probably my misunderstanding of the intent with which you shared it...

[greybeard]

Nasargadatta would ask visitors.
"What do you know about spirituality?"
He would normally get a long answer from the seeker, who no doubt was knowledgable.
Nasargadatta Maharaj would then say "Thats not it"

He would follow with statements on the futility of concepts.
He would explain that the seeker was the child of a barren woman --the unborn.
Conscious being eternal had no beginning no end.
In absolute reality (Truth) there is no Samsara -- no Karma
Every effort to transcend just gives weight to an illusion.
One without a second is the best description I have read.
Advaita Vedanta as in the link has answers to the questions posed on this thread.
But thats not it either.
It can only be experienced.
Enlightenment --freedom from ignorance is the only way to escape the notion one is bound, a prisoner of the concepts of Samsara and Karma.
Working on these will however improve life in the illusion (Maya)
Chris
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/sho...=1#post1314602

[Bill Ryan]

Mod note from Bill:

Catsquotl has been blocked from this thread. (Enough already!)

[Journeyman]

Posted by Star Mariner (here)

Posted by Constance (here)
This is entering into the area of Freewill. And this is another area of contention and confusion. Does it exist or not?

Most definitely yes. But it is limited. I've written about this is many places, the summary is something along these lines:

We are intelligent, divine energy expressing itself in dense, material form in order to grow and evolve. We are consciousness, which in turn has an ego, which is basically the sum, expressing itself, of all our former experience (good and bad in our present life, and those past). We are consciously aware of our egos; it dictates what we think, judge, see and do in our daily lives. This in a nutshell is Duality. Duality is the right to choose either this way or that way. Fight or flight. Ignore or help. Forgive or avenge. That is Free will. The means to dictate our own path, to nurture either our spiritual character, or that ego, lies in our Free will.

Sorry if I chirped a bit too loudly in the earlier post, I end up somewhat railing against a lot of this new age philosophizing, and anything at all tinged with precepts and creeds, or the corpus of doctrines, including Buddhism, that requires an element of mental gymnastics to understand. All of which contains human baggage (distortion), and is entirely unnecessary. The answers, even ultimate answers, are already there, already within us, and they're very very simple. Most of which I summarized in this post here.

It may be right, it may be wrong. Everyone is free to decide, that's the beauty of free will.

Thank you for this and the previous post in this thread. I read the initial post and enjoyed the positive tone without really giving it much thought, but your critique was very useful as I wasn't fully on board with it but lacked the language or perspective to challenge it myself. I find myself agreeing with your stance, but thanks to @Constance also for posting this topic, it's got me thinking and challenging my assumptions which is why I've come here!

[Mashika]

Posted by greybeard (here)
Nasargadatta would ask visitors.
"What do you know about spirituality?"
He would normally get a long answer from the seeker, who no doubt was knowledgable.
Nasargadatta Maharaj would then say "Thats not it"

He would follow with statements on the futility of concepts.
He would explain that the seeker was the child of a barren woman --the unborn.
Conscious being eternal had no beginning no end.
In absolute reality (Truth) there is no Samsara -- no Karma
Every effort to transcend just gives weight to an illusion.
One without a second is the best description I have read.
Advaita Vedanta as in the link has answers to the questions posed on this thread.
But thats not it either.
It can only be experienced.
Enlightenment --freedom from ignorance is the only way to escape the notion one is bound, a prisoner of the concepts of Samsara and Karma.
Working on these will however improve life in the illusion (Maya)
Chris
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/sho...=1#post1314602

Hi Sr, respectfully disagree with a couple of your notions here, i understand this may sound bad or harsh, and completely unreasonable, but please consider my words for a bit, or "bear with me for a while" before considering i'm wrong on what i'm expressing

Enlightenment --freedom from ignorance is the only way to escape the notion one is bound

This tends, to lead to ego, how do you know you are Enlightened? Someone said so? The person said so? Who defines what that place is, or when someone reaches it? What's the criteria? It's all in one self? If so, therefore "ego"

Working on these will however improve life in the illusion (Maya)

I remember talking to someone in Mexico about this, a chaman, some time ago, and when i asked about this, he only had this to say "ha ha ha ha, you are so dumb, then he whacked me on the head, once again (i get whacked so much..)" Do you understand why he whacked me?

I'm not quite sure yet, but i do understand, that trying to improve our experience here, while throwing away preparation for what follows next, is a fools errand, that one thing i did get.. :/

P.S: By the way his words were more on the side of insulting while laughing, saying "estas bien "p*ndeja hija" and then he invited me to eat with him before telling me to go away

"Ya vayase muchacha!"

[greybeard]

Not my notions Masika I paraphrase what accepted "Masters" have said.
You might say accepted by who?
There is no one to accept anything -- thats the cosmic joke -- no seperate individual
Again I point to Tim --his finger pointing rings true to me.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/sho...l=1#post456904

We are discussing that which can not be spoken of.
Smiling
Chris

[Mashika]

Posted by greybeard (here)
Not my notions Masika I paraphrase what accepted "Masters" have said.
You might say accepted by who?
There is no one to accept anything -- thats the cosmic joke -- no seperate individual
Again I point to Tim --his finger pointing rings true to me.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/sho...l=1#post456904

We are discussing that which can not be spoken of.
Smiling
Chris

Old time Buddhist and Zen masters would say that something like:
"
if you find guide in someone else's words, you went wrong..
if you did not find guide in someone else's words, you went wrong
Why are you sitting on the floor?
"

[Mark]

Posted by Mashika (here)
I remember talking to someone in Mexico about this, a chaman, some time ago, and when i asked about this, he only had this to say "ha ha ha ha, you are so dumb, then he whacked me on the head, once again (i get whacked so much..)" Do you understand why he whacked me?

Thank you for sharing your experience Mashika. It made me smile and recall this scene from the History channel series, Vikings. This particular video has a few scenes in it but the very first scene, with the monk laughing uproariously, is the relevant one.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=UsGdG2uxS04

Who is the Buddha, indeed. What is enlightenment, indeed. If you understand the nature of the laughter and the situation of the Monk compared to that of Hvitserk in this video, juxtaposing your experience as a similar ontological situation, then perhaps something is there that is quite remarkable. 🐵🙉🙈

[Innocent Warrior]

Posted by Constance (here)

Posted by Innocent Warrior (here)
Perhaps it would be more productive to have a dialogue on how to apply the realisation presented in the OP, rather than trying to force a discussion in a specific direction.

You could begin by addressing the replies that disagree with the OP as a starting point for polishing the OP, it could do with a polishing up and that would be a cohesive way to explore and then pinpoint or sharpen the focus of the desired discussion. A dialogue will allow a collaborative flow and provide an agreed upon starting point to begin exploring ways to apply the knowledge.

I see that we misapply knowledge, it’s used like a tool box to decide who is right, what is right, figure **** out, win arguments etc. May I suggest applying it differently. See it as a download that upgrades your awareness but then leave it at that and move forward perceiving what is in the moment with that knowledge incorporated into the awareness, and then move on to how to actually apply what’s been learned. We know that realisations expand our awareness but they don’t actually materialise until we act. As an example; seeing reality as illusory doesn’t automatically free us from our minds/thought.

But as I said, a collaboration is required here, otherwise individuals will wisely resist incorporating it into their awareness and the knowledge will remain misapplied.

There’s no need to shut down the thread, hence shut down participating members. Lighten up, explore, have some fun with it.

Thank you for your thoughts.

I'm willing to sacrifice up to the point of compromising my heart.

If people want to debate the truth of what was shared in the OP, it means that they are not open to it. If people cannot feel the inevitability of what was shared, it all just becomes a war of words and a clash of intellect.

It has been said to me that the degree to which we try to influence the world, is the degree to which the world will try to influence us.

We are not here to save or influence the world, we are here to be all that we can be and to experience and express that as a way of being in the world.

I didn't share what I shared so that people could debate it or so that the message could be modified or diluted, I shared it as an outpouring of my heart. The whole article from beginning to finish was like listening to a beautiful waterfall. It was perfect. I could see the liberation and the pure grace within it all. It was a lot of fun reading it because I could see the nature of life unfolding before me. It is from that point that I was sharing.


The meaning of life is to have fun and the purpose of life is to share in it all.

When we are serving each other in living the truth, this is where we can truly have fun and share in it all. Life is about being in a constant state of flow. When we are in a state of flow, we experience a state of forgetfulness.


Our effort is to maintain the effortlessness. If it is not effortless, I don't do it. This only feeds into and perpetuates the old paradigm.

I know exactly what you mean, I can appreciate that.

In that case, maybe some sort of introduction like that in the OP would serve as a guide for the intended discussion and help avoid any frustration.

[Constance]

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[Javblanc]

Truly advanced Buddhist monks are not supposed to suffer anymore. After hard work of detachment from the world, through years and years of meditation, they have withdrawn to the depths of themselves, so that nothing affects them anymore. The pain does not reach them. Some yogis can sleep on nails or walk on hot coals with bare feet or remain naked in the snow without feeling cold... When they reached this degree of excellence in the path of Buddhist realization, they were no longer of this world and many retired to meditate on the mountain, in caves, and there they let themselves die of starvation. Some time later they were found sitting in the lotus position with a smile on their faces. In the West, some saints achieved a similar detachment. For example, the medieval Cathar heresy is said to be "Western Buddhism" because the 'parfaits' (the "perfect ones", the cathar initiates) followed a discipline of renouncing the world similar to that of the Buddhist monks. In that degree of perfection, when they believed their time to leave this world had come, they received the sacrament of consolamentum (a kind of extreme unction) and then retired to die in solitude. This ritual suicide by starvation was known as 'endura'. Of the Cathar 'parfaits' that were burned at the stake at the foot of Montsegur, it is said that their faces did not reflect any pain. By the way, in this Montsegur castle, the villagers of the region assured the historian René Nelli (at the beginning of the 20th century) that at night it was possible to see apparitions of monks walking through the ruins. The curious thing is that the description of these monks responded more to Buddhist monks with slanted eyes.