This ridiculous forum thread instantly turned me vegan

[Hym]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by waxamillionpehhgasus (here)
You're posing lazy questions and making incorrect assumptions due to your lack of knowledge.

Hey.

This is your second of just two posts following your 'Welcome to Avalon' reply, which we appreciated. You might be surprised what many members here do know.

Cool it. A good piece of advice may be to make friends first, and then have animated, passionate discussions with your friends.

But — make friends first.

I agree with Bill's take on chilling with the aggression.
It does little to no good in advancing a discussion by attacking,
and it takes some more thought and ingenuity to prompt someone else to see things differently.

That's up to you, inspiring new perspectives and initiating interesting discussions, more than those who respond to this thought provoking thread you've started.

Back To The Topic

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
... A good piece of advice may be to make friends first, and then have animated, passionate discussions with your friends.
But — make friends first.
...

Best advice ever. This should be added to the "welcome" thread for new members. Its much easier, and more effective to have a thoughtful debate with people you've gained some respect from and for.

I learned from this guy once - it was a business learning that applies to everything - he was a new manager and told the CEO that he wouldn't be doing anything for a month but observing and taking notes - no decisions. The CEO obliged. If people asked him to solve problems and make decisions he just responded that he wanted things to continue status quo, and to please solve the problems as they would have before he got there ... my observation of this was some of the best management training I ever had.

It goes a long way to just get to know people first.

[Sue (Ayt)]

Posted by Strat (here)

I don't mean to hold your feet to the fire I'm just curious about your beliefs: does this apply to only certain plants? Like some plants mind whereas others don't? Or is it across the board that plants don't mind being eaten?

No disrespect, but it's relatively well known that plants have natural defences against critters.

That book made quite an impression on me years ago when I read it. I don't remember it all - just bits and pieces, but as I recall, plants desire to be eaten by beings of higher consciousness as it contributes to their own collective evolvement. (or something like that!)

[iota]

so, two things ...

one, i've always felt "connected" to plants and "aware" of the sentience in a very different, nevertheless, REAL way ...

i don't have a green thumb or anything, mostly 'm not very "physically" oriented, meaning i'm a terrible friend to notice your new haircut or outfit or whatever is going on physically with you, BUT i KNOW if you're ok or not from your "hello" and if you're in trouble, i'm probably going to be the one to call you out of the blue

so ...

BUT along those lines, when i first realized i was "picking" up the energies of people around me? i KNEW i'd be in BIG trouble if i didn't figure out a way to release them, and plants were always the way, especially trees ... but from the VERY first time, it seemed only right to ASK first if it was ok to do that?

and from the very first time i asked? i got that "warm" feeling (physically warm) that is very, very, similar to the feeling i identified with the Holy Spirit or Source, when i connected there ... almost indistinguishable

so i talk to my trees when i'm "present" enough to notice them, and they usually respond back with that warm physical feeling i'm describing ... its all very comforting really.

TWO, is this thread ONLY about discussing plants and their sentience and being vegan? or can we discuss other points in the thread?

i'm reading it, and i got a HUGE insight right off the bat that is turning my world perspective on its heel

but don't want to bring up if its going to be off topic


PS really want to thank you for posting this and the link ... a few years ago, i had done an in depth study of the Hidden Hand ... 1 and 2. saved and studied both and had heard of this Roffschild (his spelling) Thread but it was gone from that forum and not part of my collection. ... so nice find! and thanks!

[Sirus]

Humans are supposed to eat animals from both a biological and metaphysical pov. Of course, the way animals (and other foodstuffs) are treated today - without respect and gratitude is out of alignment with our better nature.

[Michael Moewes]

Posted by waxamillionpehhgasus (here)
You elect to form a relationship with a CHICKEN. Or maybe TWO CHICKENS!

You find that the chickens greedily eat the fibrous grinding remains along with bugs and anything else they can find...and, in exchange, give you a small nutrient bomb of proteins, high quality fats, organic minerals and other good stuff. They, in essence, extract the rest of the nutrition from the vegetables and produce it in a highly assimilatable form...complete amino acid profile, proportioned correctly.

Seeing an opportunity, you add this marvel of human nutrition to your green juicing! Raw!

Because the egg is UNFERTILIZED, there are no karmic issues with its consumption! Because you are providing a safe and healthy environment to the chicken; supplying it with healthy vegetables grown from the sweat of YOUR BROW...your toil...it is a perfectly symbiotic relationship!

Now, here is the exact point where you turned form Vegan to vegetarin.
A vegan, by explanation, is a human who doesn't consume any kind of animal derived products. E.g. leather, sheepwool e.t.c.
I don't point my self a Vegan because I still use some produce coming from animals.
But no cow dairy at all.
I became a Vegetarian right after becoming a Buddhist. it's just logical. do no harm.

[Michael Moewes]

Posted by Sirus (here)
Humans are supposed to eat animals from both a biological and metaphysical pov. Of course, the way animals (and other foodstuffs) are treated today - without respect and gratitude is out of alignment with our better nature.

B.S. in it's purest form

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Sirus (here)
Humans are supposed to eat animals from both a biological and metaphysical pov. Of course, the way animals (and other foodstuffs) are treated today - without respect and gratitude is out of alignment with our better nature.

Well humans are omnivorous - our physical systems from our teeth to our digestive tract to our vitamin and essential mineral requirements are suited to an omnivorous diet. That said, we do also understand nutrition to a point, and most of us have enough a variety of food available, that a plant only diet is well within the realm of suitable, as long as one applies some understanding, knowledge and science to it to avoid any deficiencies. So, I'd say that "humans are supposed to eat animals" is a fair bit of a stretch (to put it a bit more politely than Michael just did above ), but rather, "designed to accommodate eating animals" might be a better way to put it.

I have found that most arguments against eating meat come down to the current horrific factory farming practices we have allowed to flourish to make meat eating a commonplace thing. When I was a child, we were poor, and lived in a very rural area of northern interior of BC where you get one short growing season for vegetables and sub zero temperatures for 5 months of the year.

My father hunted so we could afford to eat during the winter. He was taught by the native hunters to "never attempt a kill unless you are confident you can do it with one shot, or the meat will be filled with fear". The animals lived a full and natural life then died quickly - better than I can say those wild and free animals slowly starving to death or just slowly getting too old to care for themselves until they are eaten alive by a cougar or what have you.

My cousins had a ranch and raised cattle and chickens. The animals were free range (proper free range - hundreds of acres, wooded and field areas to roam in as they pleased), were loved and well cared for their whole lives. So to solidly equate eating animals with torture and suffering of animals clearly isn't always the case at all.

Perhaps many have never considered that there are alternatives to supporting the horrific factory farming practices while retaining the ability to eat some meat. I believe we should all take more of a stance against such practices - yes it will drive up meat prices, but so be it - the western diet on average consumes way more meat than is needed for optimal nutrition. The quantity eaten in the western diet is actually quite wasteful.

[Constance]

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[Constance]

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[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Constance (here)
Put this together with the work of Tony Wright...

To be clear, I am not saying that we evolved from apes. I'm just pointing out the physiological similarities.

Things that make you go hmmmmm....



Attachment 46075

Sorry Constance, but apes are omnivores - those are the teeth of an omnivore ... Jane Goodall is considered to be the world's foremost expert on chimpanzees ...

"One of the earliest and most significant discoveries made by Jane Goodall was that chimpanzees hunt for and eat meat. Prior to this, chimpanzees were believed to be vegetarians." - https://janegoodall.ca/our-stories/1...impanzees-eat/




Even cute little bunny rabbits have been caught on video eating meat, and I'd wager their teeth are rather those of a vegetarian, as that is obviously their primary diet.

I also saw a video of a deer eating a bird the other day ...

EDIT: found it ...

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=sQOQdBLHrLk

[Constance]

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[Sirus]

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

Posted by Sirus (here)
Humans are supposed to eat animals from both a biological and metaphysical pov. Of course, the way animals (and other foodstuffs) are treated today - without respect and gratitude is out of alignment with our better nature.

Well humans are omnivorous - our physical systems from our teeth to our digestive tract to our vitamin and essential mineral requirements are suited to an omnivorous diet. That said, we do also understand nutrition to a point, and most of us have enough a variety of food available, that a plant only diet is well within the realm of suitable, as long as one applies some understanding, knowledge and science to it to avoid any deficiencies. So, I'd say that "humans are supposed to eat animals" is a fair bit of a stretch (to put it a bit more politely than Michael just did above ), but rather, "designed to accommodate eating animals" might be a better way to put it.

I have found that most arguments against eating meat come down to the current horrific factory farming practices we have allowed to flourish to make meat eating a commonplace thing. When I was a child, we were poor, and lived in a very rural area of northern interior of BC where you get one short growing season for vegetables and sub zero temperatures for 5 months of the year.

My father hunted so we could afford to eat during the winter. He was taught by the native hunters to "never attempt a kill unless you are confident you can do it with one shot, or the meat will be filled with fear". The animals lived a full and natural life then died quickly - better than I can say those wild and free animals slowly starving to death or just slowly getting too old to care for themselves until they are eaten alive by a cougar or what have you.

My cousins had a ranch and raised cattle and chickens. The animals were free range (proper free range - hundreds of acres, wooded and field areas to roam in as they pleased), were loved and well cared for their whole lives. So to solidly equate eating animals with torture and suffering of animals clearly isn't always the case at all.

Perhaps many have never considered that there are alternatives to supporting the horrific factory farming practices while retaining the ability to eat some meat. I believe we should all take more of a stance against such practices - yes it will drive up meat prices, but so be it - the western diet on average consumes way more meat than is needed for optimal nutrition. The quantity eaten in the western diet is actually quite wasteful.

Humans are supposed to eat meat.
If they did not, their DNA would change and they would evolve into other beings.
Vegans require supplements and Omnivores do not - all things being equal, of course.

I totally agree with you regarding farming practices. Animals are best hunted in the wild.

[Constance]

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[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Constance (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

Posted by Constance (here)
Put this together with the work of Tony Wright...

To be clear, I am not saying that we evolved from apes. I'm just pointing out the physiological similarities.

Things that make you go hmmmmm....



Attachment 46075

Sorry Constance, but apes are omnivores - those are the teeth of an omnivore ... Jane Goodall is considered to be the world's foremost expert on chimpanzees ...

"One of the earliest and most significant discoveries made by Jane Goodall was that chimpanzees hunt for and eat meat. Prior to this, chimpanzees were believed to be vegetarians." - https://janegoodall.ca/our-stories/1...impanzees-eat/

Thanks for that but the reason I made mention of "apes" was because I didn't want there to be any confusion that we are on the same evolutionary pathway as animals.

I was only using the word "ape" in its most general term because there is a collective belief that our evolution has arisen from the ape and I want to distinguish us from apes.

Change the word from "apes" to primates and then to be exact, "frugivores" of the primate family.

Jane Goodall may be an expert in her field but her expertise is with just one species, Chimpanzees - they are just one branch in the species of primates. Yes, the picture in the chart does not accurately represent frugivores. It is misleading. Perhaps a picture of the Spider monkey's teeth would have been a more pure representation.

From a metaphysical viewpoint, animals are just us in another form. To eat an animal is like eating one of our own fingers on our hand. To be spiritual is to honour the spirit-in-u-all.

As Michael Moewes said, Do no harm. You cannot honour another being if you kill and eat it.

To be fair, all apes are omnivores. Gorillas are considered the "most vegetarian" of the apes, and their diet is very high in insects but they also do hunt and eat monkeys occasionally. Spider monkey would have been better for your chart, but some keen people might still point out that our closest genetic relatives are apes, not monkeys. As an aside, I don't really think that claiming that the "higher" the species is on an evolutionary path the "less meat they eat" holds any water - whales, dolphins and apes are probably our closest relatives in terms of intelligence, and they're all either carnivores or omnivores.

From a metaphysical viewpoint plants are also us just in another form. I guess to eat plants might be akin to eating our own hair?

Ultimately, from some understanding I have gleaned from some ancient texts and like to humour from time to time, for true humans (which isn't us or any of the "human-like" creations that we have direct archeological evidence for) eating is a pleasure of the physical realms, and not necessary for survival. However, that only could be possible if we have the ability to get energy directly from our Source, which would give us a "god-like" status, but I do believe a "human being" in the truest sense is this, and may have been this at one time -- we tend to have called them "gods". The "being" in human being doesn't properly describe us in our current state ... perhaps "human surviving" would be a more apt term?

That said, moving to eating less overall, and moving to eat plants does seem to be an appropriate evolutionary path for us at this point.

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Posted by Sirus (here)

Humans are supposed to eat meat.
If they did not, their DNA would change and they would evolve into other beings.
...

I don't really share this view; we are always evolving whether we like it or not ... there's a bit more on my view in my post above to Constance.

[Constance]

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[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Constance (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
I don't really think that claiming that the "higher" the species is on an evolutionary path the "less meat they eat" holds any water - whales, dolphins and apes are probably our closest relatives in terms of intelligence, and they're all either carnivores or omnivores.

Just for clarity's sake, I was never professing that the higher the animals are on an evolutionary path, the less meat it would eat. I consider animals to be on a different evolutionary path to ourselves.
The chart was purely for a physiological comparison to show how similar a frugivore's physiology is with ours, ...

I get that, but our physiology is more similar to omnivores, as I pointed out.

Posted by Constance (here)
The animals that you alluded to as being of "intelligence", which of the 9 intelligences are you referring to?

My point was higher intelligence, or evolution as we observe, has nothing to do with diet.

Posted by Constance (here)

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
From a metaphysical viewpoint plants are also us just in another form. I guess to eat plants might be akin to eating our own hair?

Ha ha! Touché. The reality is that plants want to merge with us if our energies are pure so that they can experience and express themselves through us whereas animals will run for their lives if they know that our intent is to kill them.

I cannot say that plants don't want us to eat them ... as I haven't been able to have any detailed enough conversations with them to specifically ask that, but I do know that most plants have both survival and defense mechanisms that they employ to try to keep themselves alive as long as possible.

Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
Ultimately, from some understanding I have gleaned from some ancient texts and like to humour from time to time, for true humans (which isn't us or any of the "human-like" creations that we have direct archeological evidence for) eating is a pleasure of the physical realms, and not necessary for survival. However, that only could be possible if we have the ability to get energy directly from our Source, which would give us a "god-like" status, but I do believe a "human being" in the truest sense is this, and may have been this at one time -- we tend to have called them "gods". The "being" in human being doesn't properly describe us in our current state ... perhaps "human surviving" would be a more apt term?

Posted by Constance (here)
Yes. I can understand why you would say this. It appears that the majority of the worlds people are in a state of survival. However, we are already everything we are meant to be, we just need it drawn out of us; nurtured and nourished with nature, soul, food. We are universal, supernatural, multidimensional, cosmic, eternal and infinite spiritual beings.

Our potential has not been stripped from our DNA And I agree, realization of this is a tool to set us back on the correct evolutionary path. Short of some extraordinary "event", it'll be a little while before we as a whole species get everything in balance - but of course that is no excuse to not start right now at a personal level. <insert link to Contance's empowerment thread here>

...

[Strat]

Posted by Constance (here)
Things that make you go hmmmmm....

I've seen this before but I don't buy it. Only recently have humans had the ability to choose a diet accordingly. Every indigenous culture on the planet would eat what they could get their hands on. The most physically fit people on the planet (as far as I'm aware) are the Masai. I don't necessarily attribute this to their high meat diet, it probably has a lot to do with genetics. Personally, I just couldn't look a native in the eye and tell them they are going against nature.

Like you said previously, this could go back and forth forever. I could 'text wall' a reply but I think you're a cool person and we have more in common than not. These debates can bring out nasty behaviour and I won't go down that road. Also, you wouldn't have to twist my arm to try vegan dishes! I eat it all, I love food! I have a vegetarian friend and it's great because I get introduced to new foods and I have a chance to expand my pallet. Her and I get along great, I grow the food and she has fun new ways to eat it. I'm no slouch myself, I could live off of tabbouleh for the rest of my life and be happy as a clam. I'm drooling like Homer Simpson just thinking about it. Smear some hummus on it too and my god man...

Maybe I'm brainwashed, maybe you drank the cool aide. At the end of the day, I'm not sure it's a debate worthy of having. In this world we have bigger fish to fry...err onions to caramelize. hyuck hyuck dumb joke I couldn't resist. If any of you vegan Avalonians are in my area I will be happy to put together a vegan picnic for you. I don't judge. I'd like to have a vegan critique my skills anyway. The only question is do you want it in the woods with the critters or on the sandy beach with the sound of the waves.

[Constance]

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[Strat]

Posted by Constance (here)
I look forward to sharing a vegan meal with you one day Strat, woods or the beach.

Absolutely! I have the food grown naturally, straight from the Florida sun and birthed by mother Gaia, no pesticides or herbicides. I'm a dick on the internet but I dare say I'm charming in real life. Much love my friend.