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Thread: The Wall Of Shame

  1. Link to Post #101
    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    The mistake he makes in the video is trying to mollify and reason with these fools in an attempt at collegiality. They don't want to be friends, they don't want to talk, they don't want to meet in the middle, and they don't even want Joe Rogan to have a voice. None of that is negotiable. They feel entitled to their demands.

    He's already fallen into their trap. Their suggestion that he is dangerous and unreasonable has him on his heels. The video is a demonstration that he's neither of those things; he's trying to show them with his body language, word choice, tone, inflection, and so on that he's none of the things they're accusing him of. He's trying to prove something to them, and by doing so he's already ceded a position of strength.

    He doesn't have to prove anything. But Joe, being a naturally agreeable and reasonable man, tries in vain to use those very things to reach these profoundly disagreeable and unreasonable people. It's the classic example of a strength becoming a weakness. There's some naiviete there as well, and likely some pressure or sense of obligation towards Spotify. So there a few things at play here.

    I can say all these things as an agreeable person myself. I'm guilty of those things. And with all that money in play, there must be alot of pressure on Joe. Easy for me to criticize from the sidelines - I know! - but it doesn't make me any less right. The greatest challenge for a grounded, reasonable, and agreeable person is to know when none of those things will work for you and will in fact be weaponized and used against you. In those types of situations and with those types of people you have to learn to aggressively break character and in no uncertain terms say F#CK OFF.

    And that's what Joe should have done.

    Telling fanboy stories about Neil Young and Joni Mitchell was a dumb thing to do. You're never going to win them over. They're infected with that sinister brand of self righteous stupidity that's taking over the globe at the moment.

    I still like Joe and I'll watch his podcasts just like everyone else. I'll even listen to Neil Young. Harvest Moon is brilliant. I like to have a bit of fun in this thread but I'm not a canceler by nature. I'm aggressively anti authoritarian, and that's what this is all about ultimately. But it'll be interesting to see how Joe reacts when he sees what type of reaction his mea culpa invites. Will he double down on the olive branch approach or will he snap out of it and tell these idiots to f#ck off? And what will Spotify do? Will they crumble under the pressure? Let's see what happens

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/31/joe-...musicians.html

    Never thought I'd do it, but I'm symbolically canceling Joe Rogan.

    Say it ain't so Joe...

    After Neil Young and Joni Mitchell left Spotify in protest over Rogan's "dangerous misinformation" re covid, vax etc, Rogan made an Instagram video apologizing and promising to "do better" in the future.

    Have we learned nothing in the last couple years? Sigh..

    There's really only one correct answer to all this if you're Joe Rogan. And that is this: F#ck you Neil Young. F#ck you Joni Mitchell. Go f#ck yourselves.

    Anything less is grossly inappropriate. Or just say nothing. Why dignify those fools with the energy?

    I'm really disappointed in Joe. The blood is in the water now. Watch closely for the sharks in the following days and weeks here
    Watch what rogan himself said, don't listen to what the media reported him saying. Rogans response was flawless.


    I listened to every word. Did you?
    Last edited by Mike; 2nd February 2022 at 09:19.

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  3. Link to Post #102
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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    ." It's a strange responsibility to have this many listeners and he wasn't prepared for it. He just wants to create interesting stories".


    That's why flip-flops are too dangerous today, specially when you know that jabs are no good for anybody...
    fans or not...

    A) you are a coward

    B)you are an immature man, grow up!

    C)you canceled yourself

    D) you sold out!
    Last edited by Vicus; 2nd February 2022 at 09:56.

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  5. Link to Post #103
    United States Avalon Member Strat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    I gotta disagree with you a bit. I do agree that the folks that hate him are, well, brain washed emotional non-thinking followers for the most part. I think 90% of people who hate him and suggest that he's a nazi and gives a platform for them or he's anti vax or he's this or that have never watched his podcast. He had Rosa Parks' mugshot in the background for years for christs sake. His opponents are not free thinkers or open to debate, they just want to whip out the ban hammer.

    Ultimately he's just a dude with a podcast and people can't accept that. This especially pisses off the media and it's why they constantly go after him.

    Where I disagree with you is that I don't think he's employing any strategy, he's not using any body language or anything. He's just being himself. Just saying his message, shrug his shoulders and move on. I'm the same way in life. He's freakishly confident and comfortable with who he is and when that's part of your character then you have zero desire to tell someone to **** off. Younger Joe would tell him to but older Joe is much more tame. I doubt he sat back with a PR and debated how to respond. I think he has a life to get to and isn't too worried about the podcast. He comes from a humble background and now has f you money.

    And Spotify doesn't have an opinion IMO. They are a pimp and they follow the money. When Joe stops bringing in an audience they will give him the boot for some self righteous reason.

    And yeah heart of gold rocks. Easy to play on the guitar and gets the laydees attention. Douchey I know but gotta work with what ya got.
    Last edited by Strat; 2nd February 2022 at 09:37.
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  7. Link to Post #104
    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    I gotta disagree with you a bit. I do agree that the folks that hate him are, well, brain washed emotional non-thinking followers for the most part. I think 90% of people who hate him and suggest that he's a nazi and gives a platform for them or he's anti vax or he's this or that have never watched his podcast. He had Rosa Parks' mugshot in the background for years for christs sake. His opponents are not free thinkers or open to debate, they just want to whip out the ban hammer.

    Ultimately he's just a dude with a podcast and people can't accept that. This especially pisses off the media and it's why they constantly go after him.

    Where I disagree with you is that I don't think he's employing any strategy, he's not using any body language or anything. He's just being himself. Just saying his message, shrug his shoulders and move on. I'm the same way in life. He's freakishly confident and comfortable with who he is and when that's part of your character then you have zero desire to tell someone to **** off. Younger Joe would tell him to but older Joe is much more tame. I doubt he sat back with a PR and debated how to respond. I think he has a life to get to and isn't too worried about the podcast. He comes from a humble background and now has f you money.

    And Spotify doesn't have an opinion IMO. They are a pimp and they follow the money. When Joe stops bringing in an audience they will give him the boot for some self righteous reason.

    And yeah heart of gold rocks. Easy to play on the guitar and gets the laydees attention. Douchey I know but gotta work with what ya got.


    Right, I don't think he spent much time strategizing. And he was just being himself. Agreed. That's why I suggested he should have aggressively broke character there. In his natural state Joe is very grounded, reasonable, rational, and agreeable. And that has made him tremendously successful. 95% of the time it works for him. But his agreeableness in particular here backfired on him, in my view.

    Even as I'm writing these posts in this thread I'm battling my own emotional side that kind of agrees with your take. It feels good to reach out, it feels good to extend the olive branch, it feels good to apologize. I want to get lost in the feelgoodedness of it all and hope for a kumbaya moment for all parties involved. I really dislike being so cynical. It doesn't feel good. I think Joe is similar. But there's a time and a place where you gotta go cold and hard and break character. This was one of those times imo.

    I did watch the video. He apologizes at the end to all the people he's "pissed off". Ouch. Bad judgement there!

    When I say he should have told them to f#ck off, I don't mean in some performative way, or to start a silly Twitter war or something. I mean he needed to hold ground and make a statement...a statement that demonstrated his resolve in the face of this type of nonsense. As I said earlier, this is like blood in the water. The sharks will be arriving soon.

    He didn't soften his enemies up, he just created more enemies. By showing a willingness to apologize to the mob he opened the floodgates.
    Last edited by Mike; 2nd February 2022 at 19:22.

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  9. Link to Post #105
    United States Avalon Member DNA's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    In all honesty I think Joe Rogan knows far more than he lets on. I also think he understands how brainwashed and ****ed the American people are as a whole.
    I'm of the opinion that Joe likes to appear as near the baseline as possible in terms of where the public is in their understanding of what is going on with the country.
    Joe is captivating in his role as the every day man who appears to punctuate his face with understanding and revelations as some of his more controversial guests enlighten him and the American people along the way.

    It's kind of like the device Socrates uses.
    Socrates doesn't usually monologue or soap box but rather he asks questions that lead to answers that allow him to build to more pertinent questions. In Rogan's case his guests are providing a foundation of knowledge for later guests to build upon.
    Rogan knows the danger of coming off like Alex Jones, and he needs to avoid this at all costs.

    In the face of the current controversy he is foregoing the battle in my opinion to help open the eyes of those witnessing this all out attack by the establishment.
    I think he is doing this to help illustrate how the establishment attacking him is losing all credibility in their over the top censorship attempts.
    By not fighting them he appears reasonable, sincere and most importantly not a threat.
    He is by all accounts a victim.
    Ironically enough in this victim culture the establishment has created this could allow him to alter the perceptions of those still sleeping as they identify with the guy being attacked.

    I'm with you Mike, I want to see him go on the offense more, but Rogan isn't really fighting like Alex Jones is, throwing haymakers, instead Rogan is playing the tactician. He needs to survive this all out attack so he can rope a dope his way back to interviewing guests who will again fire up his offense.
    If Rogan stays the nice guy stoner comic he is and not the expert or source of the information that is under attack he is simply exercising free speech by interviewing the guests who will do his fighting for him.

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    United States Avalon Member Strat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    Oh ok I understand what you're saying Mike. In this world of keyboard warriors, telephone tough guys and wiener boy, thin-necked talking head media dbags I truly don't think there's anything he can do to appease these folk. Attack or defend the result will be the same I think, just my 2 cents but I see your point and you might be right. Time will tell.
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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    I vote in Fred Steeves for the wall of Shame due to using the name of a Pornstar and therefore duping us all twice (Gracie May (Green)).
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 3rd February 2022 at 13:42.

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  15. Link to Post #108
    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    I'd never really thought of it like that Marcus. That's a damn interesting take there.

    I think we're all playing roles and are employing various social strategies, some more conscious than others. I'm fully aware of when I'm falling into a role, for example, but it's generally not something I've pre planned. It's habit and instinct mainly. The degree to which I'm consciously responsible (or anyone is) is tough to determine sometimes.

    Sometimes I don't think at all because I know that thinking will make me too self conscious when I'm trying to do something. But I am at least dimly aware of what my motivations are. Maybe Joe is like that. I dunno.

    The stoner/comic thing does work to his advantage. He's a very smart guy, but he can always fall back on the stoner/comic thing when he wants to shed responsibility for getting something wrong maybe, or to deflect pressure. And then, when it's convenient for him to be intelligent Joe again he does that. It's all timing and strategy, but although I'm sure he's aware he's doing it I doubt he gives it much conscious thought

    Re interviewing guests that will do his fighting for him: yeah well said. And I think it's true. Pretty smart too!
    Last edited by Mike; 2nd February 2022 at 10:27.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    Oh ok I understand what you're saying Mike. In this world of keyboard warriors, telephone tough guys and wiener boy, thin-necked talking head media dbags I truly don't think there's anything he can do to appease these folk. Attack or defend the result will be the same I think, just my 2 cents but I see your point and you might be right. Time will tell.

    Or don't attack or defend. Just say nothing.

    Do you have brothers or sisters? I do. And when we'd fight as kids nothing infuriated me more than when they simply ignored me. Enraged me lol!

    Joe didn't have to say a word here imo. But having made the decision to speak, it's my strong opinion that he should have come out guns blazing . But like you said, time will tell if I'm correct or not

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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    Actually that's what I figured he'd do, say nothing. I was surprised to see his video.

    I do have an older bro, he kicked my ass on the regular lol. Also out witted and manipulated me constantly, probably why I'm such a psycho nowadays lol. But hey could be worse, I'm fortunate to have grown up with a nuclear family so I'm not complaining.
    Today is victory over yourself of yesterday. Tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.

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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    Silence is a brutal punishment.  They don't put criminals in solitary confinement for peaceful time out.

    My ex husband would frequently use silence treatment to punish me or force me to do things his way.  Last time he did it to me was for three weeks.  So I left.

    I agree that Joe should have gone silent and ignored this power play though.... when they were effectively spitting the dummy and giving him the silence treatment.
    Last edited by Gemma13; 2nd February 2022 at 11:51.

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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/31/joe-...musicians.html

    Never thought I'd do it, but I'm symbolically canceling Joe Rogan.

    Say it ain't so Joe...
    I've tried the links provided but they don't take me to the specific video. Here's one provided by rgray222. Finger's cross this is the one.

    Last edited by RunningDeer; 2nd February 2022 at 13:44.

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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    Quote Posted by Mad Scientist (here)
    I vote in Frank for the wall of Shame due to using the name of a Pornstar and therefore duping us all twice (Gracie May (Green)).
    Huh? Did I miss posts on the thread? Mad Scientist, I don’t understand how Frank is to blame for the Fred/Gracy thing.

    * Please provide a link to the post(s) so I can better understand your POV.

    I'm so confused (Vinnie Barbarino)
    Last edited by RunningDeer; 2nd February 2022 at 16:42.

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    Avalon Member Pam's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    The mistake he makes in the video is trying to mollify and reason with these fools in an attempt at collegiality. They don't want to be friends, they don't want to talk, they don't want to meet in the middle, and they don't even want Joe Rogan to have a voice. None of that is negotiable. They feel entitled to their demands.

    He's already fallen into their trap. Their suggestion that he is dangerous and unreasonable has him on his heels. The video is a demonstration that he's neither of those things; he's trying to show them with his body language, word choice, tone, inflection, and so on that he's none of the things they're accusing him of. He's trying to prove something to them, and by doing so he's already ceded a position of strength.

    He doesn't have to prove anything. But Joe, being a naturally agreeable and reasonable man, tries in vain to use those very things to reach these profoundly disagreeable and unreasonable people. It's the classic example of a strength becoming a weakness. There's some naiviete there as well, and likely some pressure or sense of obligation towards Spotify. So there a few things at play here.

    I can say all these things as an agreeable person myself. I'm guilty of those things. And with all that money in play, there must be alot of pressure on Joe. Easy for me to criticize from the sidelines - I know! - but it doesn't make me any less right. The greatest challenge for a grounded, reasonable, and agreeable person is to know when none of those things will work for you and will in fact be weaponized and used against you. In those types of situations and with those types of people you have to learn to aggressively break character and in no uncertain terms say F#CK OFF.

    And that's what Joe should have done.

    Telling fanboy stories about Neil Young and Joni Mitchell was a dumb thing to do. You're never going to win them over. They're infected with that sinister brand of self righteous stupidity that's taking over the globe at the moment.

    I still like Joe and I'll watch his podcasts just like everyone else. I'll even listen to Neil Young. Harvest Moon is brilliant. I like to have a bit of fun in this thread but I'm not a canceler by nature. I'm aggressively anti authoritarian, and that's what this is all about ultimately. But it'll be interesting to see how Joe reacts when he sees what type of reaction his mea culpa invites. Will he double down on the olive branch approach or will he snap out of it and tell these idiots to f#ck off? And what will Spotify do? Will they crumble under the pressure? Let's see what happens

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/31/joe-...musicians.html

    Never thought I'd do it, but I'm symbolically canceling Joe Rogan.

    Say it ain't so Joe...

    After Neil Young and Joni Mitchell left Spotify in protest over Rogan's "dangerous misinformation" re covid, vax etc, Rogan made an Instagram video apologizing and promising to "do better" in the future.

    Have we learned nothing in the last couple years? Sigh..

    There's really only one correct answer to all this if you're Joe Rogan. And that is this: F#ck you Neil Young. F#ck you Joni Mitchell. Go f#ck yourselves.

    Anything less is grossly inappropriate. Or just say nothing. Why dignify those fools with the energy?

    I'm really disappointed in Joe. The blood is in the water now. Watch closely for the sharks in the following days and weeks here
    Watch what rogan himself said, don't listen to what the media reported him saying. Rogans response was flawless.


    I listened to every word. Did you?
    This is an extremely powerful post, Mike. This is a lesson for the entire human race. If you don't feel you can discern who is who, just ask yourself, "Is the person making demands, willing to discuss this?" Someone with a legitimate concern should be willing to debate or discuss their grievances. Specifically, in this case, what kind of misinformation? Why do they believe it is misinformation? Would they be willing debate, since it is Joe Rogan?

    I can't help but wonder if they simply can't hear that maybe their choice to take that injection wasn't as safe as they thought. They are used to be able to have people around them agree with them, either because they pay them or they are in awe of their "celebrity" status(no matter how old and worn it is). They leveraged their perceived entitlement and products so that no one can publicly state on a large venue what they don't want to hear. Something that compromises their perceived safety. Never mind that Jonie Mitchell is still a die hard smoker......

    So this is not about discussing, or being specific or getting to facts, this is a entitled, financially well off person believing they can get away with having an adult tantrum and threaten to take their toys away if the game can't be played the way they want. The solution is not to placate someone that resorts to these tactics. Let them take their friggin toys and go home. Being willing to do it their way or partially change the game that the majority wish to play to placate the pouty one is not seeing the long term ramifications of placating this type of behavior.

    Tyrants and bullies always want more because internally they will never feel "safe" enough.
    Last edited by Pam; 2nd February 2022 at 14:40.

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    Avalon Member Kryztian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    Quote Posted by Strat (here)
    Rogans response was flawless.
    I am going to agree with you 100% on that one Strat. I think his response was B-R-I-L-L-I-A-N-T. An ingenius, diplomatic move on his part.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    The mistake he makes in the video is trying to mollify and reason with these fools in an attempt at collegiality. They don't want to be friends, they don't want to talk, they don't want to meet in the middle, and they don't even want Joe Rogan to have a voice. None of that is negotiable. They feel entitled to their demands.
    I think the mistake would be to climb on your high horse and engage Rogan's critics who are clearly on their high horses. What will that that accomplish other than the creation of even more sound and fury, and intensifying the feelings of self righteousness on both sides of the pro/anti Rogan fence.

    I've seen social workers interact with irrational and emotional people, and telling them the unvarnished truth never accomplishes a thing. However, having some humility (even if you are the sane one) and talking to the other party (who is insane) as an equal, and with respect, and giving them some validation for their behavior and gripes .... GETS RESULTS! It's time to stop the war and start the diplomacy.

    Rogan did not apologize for "spreading fake news" or "being anti-science" or "having liars on his show" or any of the other crazy things he has been accused of. In fact, I am not sure exactly sure what his apology is for ... and it is brilliantly vague but looks oh so heart felt. I think Rogan genuinely wants to be someone not seen on the left or right, just someone who wants to move the conversation forward. Perhaps he is sorry that he doesn't have the people on the pro-vax side of the fence in his audience and is reaching out to them. He neglected to interview the kind of people they want to hear from. And now he is so sorry. (Pass the Kleenex please.)

    Maybe he should invite Sanjay Gupta (conventional provax doctor from CNN) back on the show. Maybe he can get him to address some of the issues Malone addressed on the show. He might even let Gupta score some points and validate his criticisms. Perhaps he could even get Gupta to debate Malone. Now that would be real progress! And if Gupta or others like him don't' want to come on the show, then that will just demonstrate even better how morally self-righteous and stubborn the pro-vax-everyone crowd is and marginalize them and make them more irrelevant.

    The sit-on-your-high-horse way of doing business isn't doing anyone any good. Glad we have people like Rogan moving things forward. If there is anyone who can change hearts and minds, it might be him.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    Chris I'm not on any high horse I'm not piling on with the critics. Joe's critics are glad he apologized! I'm a Joe fan. I'm just pointing out that he made a crucial error in judgment. I'm not suggesting we should all abandon him now or anything. I still think he's great! But he royally goofed up when he apologized and promised to "do better" in the future. That's textbook bowing down to the mob language.

    The difference between your situation as a social worker and the situation with these authoritarians is that you're not a multimillionaire podcaster and they're not trying to deplatform you. You can point to many situations where diplomacy and reason ultimately saved the say, but my whole point is that you can't negotiate with the mob. Diplomacy and reason will only leave you vulnerable. Humility will only invite more aggression with them. Notice how none of them even offered to talk to Joe. They just delivered ultimatums. That says it all right there

    Bullies don't respond to humility and reason. It just emboldens them. They'll follow you to the ends of the earth tormenting you till you finally turn around and punch them in the face. I fear that Joe's reaction will only encourage more authoritarian bullies to bring him down

    I like Neil Young btw. And Joni Mitchell. I wish she and Young and Joe could find common ground and be buddies and do some podcasts together. I'd love to see that! But it ain't happening brother. You cannot emotionally bargain with or appease these people in any way. It's a sad reality. I don't like it. I wish I was wrong! But it is what it is I'm afraid
    Last edited by Mike; 2nd February 2022 at 18:08.

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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    It appears to me that Rogan was really trying to apologize to his golden goose, Spotify. He made that apology abundantly clear. While he was at it he started t throw apologies around like Trump throwing around adjectives such as hugely or perfect. It was overkill and unnecessary.

    I like Rogan, this has not put me off of him but I am afraid we have not seen the end of this story. When the cancel culture senses a bit of weakness they will not stop. It may take days, weeks, months or even a year or two but they will stay on Rogan until he caves or says screw you. He would have been much better off saying nothing or telling them to go to hell.

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    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    Chucky's In Love is a Ricky Lee Jones song, not Joni Mitchell, so Joe was obviously sending out an encoded signal to say to start the revolution!

    Seriously, FrankV is a good guy. After all he has done for Project Avalon, when Bill was in need. I call bullsh!t on canceling him, or disparaging him.
    (Mod note from Bill: Mad Scientist meant Fred Steeves, not Frank V). He's corrected his post. )
    Mike's right: Rogan groveled when he should have stood firm.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 3rd February 2022 at 13:45.


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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    Pam you nailed it. Updating one's thinking often requires a certain brand of courage many won't attempt. Especially if that update involves something like questioning the medical establishment. Because if the medical establishment is corrupt, what else is? That's how the thinking goes I think. It represents a kind if existential crisis, and very few want to grapple with that. They know it will turn their reality upside down. Being emotionally unprepared or unwilling to face that creates a kind of addiction to the false narrative they've been telling themselves all along, and that's where the irrational behavior kicks in

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    Chucky's In Love is a Ricky Lee Jones song, not Joni Mitchell, so Joe was obviously sending out an encoded signal to say to start the revolution!

    Seriously, FrankV is a good guy. After all he has done for Project Avalon, when Bill was in need. I call bullsh!t on canceling him, or disparaging him.

    Mike's right: Rogan groveled when he should have stood firm.

    Hey Dennis, I think Mad Scientist means Fred, not Frank. A little goof up there I think
    Last edited by Mike; 2nd February 2022 at 19:40.

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    Avalon Member Delight's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Wall Of Shame

    Dramadramadramdramdram....
    Sound and fury signifying?
    The drum beat, the drum roll, the drumming in the ear, beating for nothing.

    We who are about to die, wonder
    Is anything about ALL this that we have created of any value?

    The cacaphony of all the voices bleating.
    While the drum keeps beating.
    Dramadramdramdram.

    Sick unto death we are.
    But all in all,
    Even if we were born a star
    We'd blink off one day.
    Live now.... while we may.

    How DO we live?
    All the stories and the characters and the war.

    It seems a shame.
    WE created a whole world of seeking fame
    Glory riches and the acquistive frame
    Where we lack for wisdom
    WE HAVE DRAMA
    Is our dramdramdrama enough?
    Last edited by Delight; 3rd February 2022 at 04:18.

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