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Thread: Om Mani Padme Hum

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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddh...-by-suffering/

    This is a good start maybe.
    Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

    I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)
    Quote I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here?
    Yes i can, everything but what you have experienced so far

    That's the exact point of it all, you were unable to see the world for what it is because you right now try to explain to me a culture/religion that came late into your life and you expect to know more than someone who was born and raised into it

    Let me explain it other way. If you are 40 years old or whatever, and then comes someone who is 24 years old. And you just learned about eastern culture and found it cool and interesting and learned from whoever/books/movies and such, and then comes the 24 year old that grew on it and knows the raw version of it (without the nice things added so it's more attractive to westerners). Do you think you have more experience than the 24 year old, because you are older?

    Do do think that maybe, since the 24 did not know or had to rebuild her mind to find out what the eastern culture means, has an advantage over you? Have you thrown away yet, all you assumed, or did you just picked up the latest version of the culture and re-interpreted it once more?

    Think, please

    This is a pointless argument.. like i said "You may be right, but.."

    Sometimes, it does get very tiring when i get my own culture explained to me

    I had already pointed to you, on other thread, about "suffering" and yet you skipped over my links and replied with a bunch of nonsense, and kept going, you did not took a look at the link i posted, and i know that because you kept ignoring and not addressing anything i said, yet you come again and try to impose a view about eastern culture concepts that you don't understand

    Just don't

    Spend a year, or 10, like already said several times, and then come back with real stuff, you just keep cycling over the same tired explanation that doesn't mean much if you don't accept that you have to throw away your pre-conceived notions. Like i said already way too many times

    So, in the end

    "It is your own path" and i can't change it.. "Unless you ask"

    We went full cycle here, once again.............

    ETA:Why do you have to keep fighting back? I asked you to look more into it, it takes months, years, decades, a life! To get to it, spend your time more wisely and do that, arguing with me here when you don't understand what Buddhism really is but still try to hold your views on it is ridiculous.

    Spend.The.Time.Learning it already

    Or not! It's up to you, no one is forcing you, but if you want to reference Buddhist concepts, please at least spend more time learning what it really means

    What more is there to say?

    We were not even about this, yes. I was just trying to express how i get around my bad days in hope other people would find a way out in the same way i do, and hopefully make them feel good, and now you are bringing the monster out, why?
    Last edited by Mashika; 13th March 2021 at 08:49.
    Tired

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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Mike it's easy to have little fear of death when you're not dying. I've worked in hospitals. I've watched people die slow and painful deaths. It's not like the movies where they share a cry with loved ones after a labored and heroic speech.. "Live, live for me Johnny!"...as the fluttering eyes close to a lovely Enya soundtrack.

    You won't be able to intellectualize your bedsores, or develop a subjective opinion of them that will stop you from crying out in pain.

    You may be very good at controlling your emotions. I don't doubt it. Full marks to you. But what you're doing is stubbornly intellectualizing everything to the 1000th degree in order to make a point that is far from the one being made here. Think of it this way then: before you became this wondrous Buddha figure you are today, did you ever cry, suffer disappointments, brood, break a bone, entertain regrets, or get frustrated? Ever? As a boy even? Well that's all I'm talking about.
    Last edited by Mike; 13th March 2021 at 09:56.

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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddh...-by-suffering/

    This is a good start maybe.
    Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

    I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)
    Just so you know

    Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

    But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

    I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

    Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

    It would be so easy, and yet
    Tired

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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddh...-by-suffering/

    This is a good start maybe.
    Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

    I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)
    Just so you know

    Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

    But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

    I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

    Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

    It would be so easy, and yet
    Everyone knows what "suffering" means and you won't avoid confusion if you keep using it differently. So how about using a different word for "Buddhist suffering" then? Along with a definition?

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    Arrow Re: Om Mani Padme Hum


    J'aime bien cette version


    Avec la conscience géométrique en plus


    Dans une forme originale

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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddh...-by-suffering/

    This is a good start maybe.
    Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

    I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)
    Just so you know

    Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

    But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

    I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

    Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

    It would be so easy, and yet
    Everyone knows what "suffering" means and you won't avoid confusion if you keep using it differently. So how about using a different word for "Buddhist suffering" then? Along with a definition?
    Everyone in the world generally understands the mundane connotation of suffering. We have all experienced events that are unpleasant, so we would generally want to avoid these kinds of experiences. What sets the Buddhist definition of suffering apart from this mundane connotation is that in Buddhism, suffering is not only about every unpleasant experiences, it also includes every pleasant experiences. In short, every aspects of our existence until we are enlightened is suffering.

    This aspect of the Buddhist definition of suffering -- inclusion of even pleasant experiences as suffering is what I believe Mashika is striving for the readers of this thread to come to grips with. The reason that pleasant experiences are considered suffering is that the pleasant experiences are only temporary (impermanent). So eventually they go away, so when they do, we crave or long for it to return. This craving or grasping for pleasant experience and repelling unpleasant experiences is the root cause of the suffering based on attachment to self (ego), or "I". As Mike pointed out, the Buddhist eightfold path can be followed to overcome this suffering.

    The Guatama Buddha first explained the suffering in his first sermon of the Four Noble Truth.

    1. All existence is dukkha. The word dukkha has been variously translated as ‘suffering’, ‘anguish’, ‘pain’, or ‘unsatisfactoriness’. The Buddha’s insight was that our lives are a struggle, and we do not find ultimate happiness or satisfaction in anything we experience. This is the problem of existence.

    2. The cause of dukkha is craving. The natural human tendency is to blame our difficulties on things outside ourselves. But the Buddha says that their actual root is to be found in the mind itself. In particular our tendency to grasp at things (or alternatively to push them away) places us fundamentally at odds with the way life really is.

    3. The cessation of dukkha comes with the cessation of craving. As we are the ultimate cause of our difficulties, we are also the solution. We cannot change the things that happen to us, but we can change our responses.

    4. There is a path that leads from dukkha. Although the Buddha throws responsibility back on to the individual he also taught methods through which we can change ourselves, for example the Noble Eightfold Path.

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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Mike it's easy to have little fear of death when you're not dying. I've worked in hospitals. I've watched people die slow and painful deaths. It's not like the movies where they share a cry with loved ones after a labored and heroic speech.. "Live, live for me Johnny!"...as the fluttering eyes close to a lovely Enya soundtrack.

    You won't be able to intellectualize your bedsores, or develop a subjective opinion of them that will stop you from crying out in pain.

    You may be very good at controlling your emotions. I don't doubt it. Full marks to you. But what you're doing is stubbornly intellectualizing everything to the 1000th degree in order to make a point that is far from the one being made here. Think of it this way then: before you became this wondrous Buddha figure you are today, did you ever cry, suffer disappointments, brood, break a bone, entertain regrets, or get frustrated? Ever? As a boy even? Well that's all I'm talking about.
    It may be easier to not have a fear of death when I am not dying. But I don't have it now because I am not dying. That's my whole point -- you guys are telling me that I suffer and tat I need to suffer and maybe I need up to 10 years to learn to suffer - its a bit absurd to be honest. I don't think you guys know me at all.

    I watched my father dying slowly of cancer over a year -- you act as though I must be someone who has never experienced anything in life and only have the hoolywwod version of life - nothing could be further from the truth, and I already told you that, but maybe it is you who can't possibly understand me so you keep having to make this assumptions and associations so that you can force me into your view.

    Suffering is subjective - what is suffering to one person may not be for another, depending on your upbringing, perspective, religion, culture, etc. So how can there be a global consensus and who's suffering from what?

    If you want to say that life is full of everything that causes people suffering, I will agree, but again, suffering is a subjective experience.

    I don't think this as complicated as you seem to think it is.

    EDIT: actually, let's go back to the Hollywood versions of things ... could it be that Disney, Hollywood, and media in general have amplified our responses to adversity, by showing us "how we're supposed to respond?" (tossing you example out the window)

    The example you gave is not like how movies portray death for the most part. Movies, by their nature amplify the suffering caused from adversity to get that emotional reaction - that is the goal - to amplify that emotional reaction, to give you that emotional response. Especially in Disney products aimed at children - have to train them while they are young. Also the "news" and other media - all seeking to amplify your emotion response to get people to become addicted, and like and share, etc. Is this not true? Do marketing companies not seek to play on emotional reactions? The News? Hollywood? Almost everything?

    Could it be then that we have become trained to have an over-emotional reaction to everything - which would maximize our experience of "suffering" by our "society"? That it has become "normalized"?
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 13th March 2021 at 17:59.
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    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddh...-by-suffering/

    This is a good start maybe.
    Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

    I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)
    Just so you know

    Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

    But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

    I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

    Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

    It would be so easy, and yet
    I'm just trying to say that suffering - they way people tend to suffer - isn't a requirement, it can be alleviated, you can have a healthy relationship with the adverse events in your life. Like I said to Mike, it's subjective. And you are trying to make me believe that this isn't so, and seem to be indicating that I am wrong for having alleviated it.

    I am also just saying that there is a distinction between adversity and suffering, they are not the same thing. Once you have a healthy relationship with adversity, you no longer suffer as much, and therefore have alleviated it. I don't think it is complicated.

    Perhaps you and Mike are lacking that distinction between adversity and suffering? If one lumps those two things together as a single thing, then I totally understand why this topic has created the conversation it has.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Hey Mike, you mentioned you had kids. What if, God forbid, one of them was paralyzed or killed in a car wreck - would you stop and decide what emotions are appropriate to perceive in the moment, or would you just be overcome with emotion? Would you subjectively decide how you should feel in that moment, or would you just instantly feel horror, sadness, worry, and so forth?

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    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Hey Mike, you mentioned you had kids. What if, God forbid, one of them was paralyzed or killed in a car wreck - would you stop and decide what emotions are appropriate to perceive in the moment, or would you just be overcome with emotion? Would you subjectively decide how you should feel in that moment, or would you just instantly feel horror, sadness, worry, and so forth?
    I never said I don't feel emotions, In fact I said earlier somewhere that I do feel rather strong emotion. But an emotion is distinct from suffering as is suffering from adversity. We have been conditioned to believe that that emotion is the definition of the words we use to, highly inadequately, describe them.

    Emotions are extremely complex. I recall as a child, being able to "feel the day" - I could feel everything, the wind, the trees, the animals, my family - everything had this energetic imprint, and that was felt through the system we call the emotional system. I can't say whether you recall anything like this in your childhood, but I am sure I am not alone in recalling this. As we grow older we are taught there are only a few emotions: Happy, sad, anger, jealousy, etc. and that has the effect of rendering the extremely complex emotional system we are born with into some crude inaccurate format. Along with that we are conditioned that "when this happens, this is the one of those five emotions I am supposed to feel", ad infinitum, taught to us by the people around us but most notable the media as I mentioned earlier.

    To address your question specifically ... I would feel emotion, if say, I lost a child (don't forget I watched my father die slowly of cancer, I'm not new to adversity). An emotional response has a natural time limit. When you are centered and grounded in the present moment, you feel the emotion for the present moment. It is in this present moment that you feel the complexities of your emotional system - it is the natural state of being - the naturals state of a human "being". The state that our "civilization" has "cultured" out of us.

    Suffering, is when you move that emotional reaction outside of its natural place and project it into the future or drudge it up from the past. Our powerful memories can facilitate a life long suffering based on a memory of something that has happened long ago. Something that IS not happening. Likewise, we can project our emotional reactions onto something we imagine in the future - causing us fear and suffering that way. But receiving the emotion based on anything in the moment it is happening, even adversity, is not what I term suffering. That is adversity.

    An emotion is not what you think it is (I'm assuming as I'd say this is true for 99.999% of people) ... people tend to link suffering to their emotional responses, but true suffering comes from the denial of truth, not from the experience of emotion. Denial of truth is the trigger. Not the emotion itself. The emotion is the result.

    Emotion, adversity, and suffering are all distinct things.

    Unless you are trying to tell me that adversity is emotion, emotion is suffering, and, I experience adversity, therefore I must suffer? I think maybe perhaps it is the condition of belief that this is so that has caused an undue amount of "suffering" in this world.

    My main point is that there is an undue amount of suffering in this world (because of the denial of truth, and our propensity to avoid finding the peace of the present moment, and our poor relationship with our emotional systems) ... would you not agree? And would that not beg for alleviation in some manner? Even if that alleviation is as simple as learning to relax into a state of not denying the truth, relaxing into that peace?
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 13th March 2021 at 19:28.
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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Hey Mike, you mentioned you had kids. What if, God forbid, one of them was paralyzed or killed in a car wreck - would you stop and decide what emotions are appropriate to perceive in the moment, or would you just be overcome with emotion? Would you subjectively decide how you should feel in that moment, or would you just instantly feel horror, sadness, worry, and so forth?
    Re-reading this ... I think I see something here that may be causing some of the misunderstanding ... you think that I "control" my emotions, and that is how I have alleviated my suffering. Not true. Learning to have a healthy relationship with emotions has nothing to do with control.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Emotion, adversity, and suffering may all be different things in the dictionary, but in the real world they often occur instantaneously. Example: you're climbing a mountain, you slip and fall, landing on a rock bluff 20 feet below, suffering a severely broken leg. You can intellectually tease out all the variables of emotion, adversity, and suffering while writing about it on a chat forum, but in the moment it all happens at once..in a split second.

    And that's the point: often in life we're overwhelmed by an emotional or physical challenge in such a dramatic way that doesn't allow for subjective perception or intellectualization. It just happens, in an instant. Perhaps over time pain and suffering can be lessened, but not in the moment.

    Some pain and suffering is subjective insomuch as people will react differently to different stressors. Fair enough. But still, people will react to stressors throughout life in ways which will cause discomfort, or suffering. Stressors and suffering are still an inevitability for everyone. And that's the universal or objective aspect to suffering you either can't or won't acknowledge.

    If you doubt it, report back here immediately after you lose a loved one and let us know how you're subjectively feeling about it. And while you're at it, run head first into a wall and let us know how you subjectively feel about that too. What you either can't or won't acknowledge is the universality of suffering. I'm truly sorry to hear about your father, but surely at some point in that process you felt grief, sadness, or heartache. If you didn't then I can recommend a pretty good therapist. Yes, over time this type of suffering wanes - it wanes for everybody - but for it to wane it first has to exist.
    Last edited by Mike; 13th March 2021 at 19:54.

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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Emotion, adversity, and suffering may all be different things in the dictionary, but in the real world they often occur instantaneously. Example: you're climbing a mountain, you slip and fall, landing on a rock bluff 20 feet below, suffering a severely broken leg. You can intellectually tease out all the variables of emotion, adversity, and suffering while writing about it on a chat forum, but in the moment it all happens at once..in a split second.

    And that's the point: often in life we're overwhelmed by an emotional or physical challenge in such a dramatic way that doesn't allow for subjective perception or intellectualization. It just happens, in an instant. Perhaps over time pain and suffering can be lessened, but not in the moment.

    Some pain and suffering is subjective insomuch as people will react differently to different stressors. Fair enough. But still, people will react to stressors throughout life in ways which will cause discomfort, or suffering. Stressors and suffering are still an inevitability for everyone. And that's the universal or objective aspect to suffering you either can't or won't acknowledge.

    If you doubt it, report back here immediately after you lose a loved one and let us know how you're subjectively feeling about it. And while you're at it, run head first into a wall and let us know how you subjectively feel about that too. What you either can't or won't acknowledge is the universality of suffering. I'm truly sorry to hear about your father, but surely at some point in that process you felt grief, sadness, or heartache. If you didn't then I can recommend a pretty good therapist. Yes, over time this type of suffering wanes - it wanes for everybody - but for it to wane it first has to exist.
    Have you ever seen a kid get hurt and then look to its parent and then mirror the "emotional reaction" of the parent? Whether the reaction was breaking down and crying, falling down in weakness, or having no reaction at all? I think most people with kids comes to realize this phenomenon to some extent. I think maybe you underestimate the conditioning influence on our behaviours by our "cultures".

    I explained the definition of suffering and the distinctions between adversity and emotions in the previous post. Nothing you offer here deems further explanation. I never claimed that I don't feel physical pain, or won't have an emotional reaction if I lost a child, as I explained in the previous post ... you are trying to move the goalposts. I do though, have strategies to alleviate pain and suffering because I recognize that 90% of all suffering is undue and caused by our own interpretation and conditioning, as to how we believe we should react to adversity.

    My argument isn't that suffering doesn't exist or that it is imaginary. It never was. My argument is that it can be alleviated because much of it is undue, and I have alleviated it to a large extent. As I mentioned before, I used to suffer a lot, but recognizing that it was not required, and caused not by the adversity itself, not by the emotion itself, but by the denial of truth, I was able to alleviate it. Does that sound ike some new age fantasy unicorn poo and fairy dust story?
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 13th March 2021 at 20:19.
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  27. Link to Post #34
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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Ok, fair enough Mike. We're finding some middle ground then. Alleviating suffering is perfectly reasonable. I think your 90% hypothesis is an exaggeration, but maybe that's for another thread, another time.

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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Ok, fair enough Mike. We're finding some middle ground then. Alleviating suffering is perfectly reasonable. I think your 90% hypothesis is an exaggeration, but maybe that's for another thread, another time.
    I'll settle on an average of 75%. Variable by individual, and by specific definition of a specific type of "suffering".
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 13th March 2021 at 21:11.
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  31. Link to Post #36
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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    My daughter 8 months old hums second voice. Magic!
    Humming hmm. My son almost 3, falls asleep on the mantras but the little lady hums louder and louder. Sliding along on another mantra.

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  33. Link to Post #37
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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddh...-by-suffering/

    This is a good start maybe.
    Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

    I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)
    Just so you know

    Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

    But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

    I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

    Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

    It would be so easy, and yet
    Everyone knows what "suffering" means and you won't avoid confusion if you keep using it differently. So how about using a different word for "Buddhist suffering" then? Along with a definition?
    Sure, the word is 'Dukkha', and the actual concept goes beyond just "suffering" as in pain or hurt or something that causes me to feel unhappy. I don't think i'm going to be able to explain it correctly because it is learned without words, and written explanations always are missing the core of it

    It's more like "general dissatisfaction",

    Dukkha-dukkha
    For when you get hurt, emotional or physical hurt, as you live, your body dies second by second, you sometimes can feel it over the short time, but always over the long term, you grow old and start seeing it and feeling the changes

    Viparinama-dukkha
    Like when you were enjoying something very much but it goes away or loses the property that made you enjoy it and you stop enjoying, it's 'suffering' too

    Sankhara-dukkha
    Like going to work, achieving what you meant to do, but having a feeling of dissatisfaction because it got done but you hoped to get it done in a different way. That's 'suffering' also, even if everything is ok in your day and life at that moment and there's nothing to complain about

    Picking up an icecream cone and enjoying it and then going home thinking about how it tasted good but you must not have another one. That's 'suffering'

    Going to the park one afternoon and having a great time, then going home and watching the sun go down and longing to be able to come back next week and have more memories and fun with your family.. That's 'suffering'
    Tired

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  35. Link to Post #38
    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddh...-by-suffering/

    This is a good start maybe.
    Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

    I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)
    Just so you know

    Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

    But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

    I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

    Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

    It would be so easy, and yet
    Everyone knows what "suffering" means and you won't avoid confusion if you keep using it differently. So how about using a different word for "Buddhist suffering" then? Along with a definition?
    Sure, the word is 'Dukkha', and the actual concept goes beyond just "suffering" as in pain or hurt or something that causes me to feel unhappy. I don't think i'm going to be able to explain it correctly because it is learned without words, and written explanations always are missing the core of it

    It's more like "general dissatisfaction",

    Dukkha-dukkha
    For when you get hurt, emotional or physical hurt, as you live, your body dies second by second, you sometimes can feel it over the short time, but always over the long term, you grow old and start seeing it and feeling the changes

    Viparinama-dukkha
    Like when you were enjoying something very much but it goes away or loses the property that made you enjoy it and you stop enjoying, it's 'suffering' too

    Sankhara-dukkha
    Like going to work, achieving what you meant to do, but having a feeling of dissatisfaction because it got done but you hoped to get it done in a different way. That's 'suffering' also, even if everything is ok in your day and life at that moment and there's nothing to complain about

    Picking up an icecream cone and enjoying it and then going home thinking about how it tasted good but you must not have another one. That's 'suffering'

    Going to the park one afternoon and having a great time, then going home and watching the sun go down and longing to be able to come back next week and have more memories and fun with your family.. That's 'suffering'
    If I may ...

    This makes sense. I would say though, that "suffering" is a potential result of these dukkhas - I believe there's a space between "how it occurs" and the "suffering that results" (perhpas there's a bit of semantics at play here) that one can potentially intercept if they so choose. You may not agree, or feel that it is "right" or "ok" to do so, and that's a valid point of view to have (just not how I see it), but perhaps that is a different matter and a different topic.
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 14th March 2021 at 00:34.
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  37. Link to Post #39
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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddh...-by-suffering/

    This is a good start maybe.
    Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

    I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)
    Just so you know

    Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

    But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

    I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

    Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

    It would be so easy, and yet
    Everyone knows what "suffering" means and you won't avoid confusion if you keep using it differently. So how about using a different word for "Buddhist suffering" then? Along with a definition?
    Sure, the word is 'Dukkha', and the actual concept goes beyond just "suffering" as in pain or hurt or something that causes me to feel unhappy. I don't think i'm going to be able to explain it correctly because it is learned without words, and written explanations always are missing the core of it

    It's more like "general dissatisfaction",

    Dukkha-dukkha
    For when you get hurt, emotional or physical hurt, as you live, your body dies second by second, you sometimes can feel it over the short time, but always over the long term, you grow old and start seeing it and feeling the changes

    Viparinama-dukkha
    Like when you were enjoying something very much but it goes away or loses the property that made you enjoy it and you stop enjoying, it's 'suffering' too

    Sankhara-dukkha
    Like going to work, achieving what you meant to do, but having a feeling of dissatisfaction because it got done but you hoped to get it done in a different way. That's 'suffering' also, even if everything is ok in your day and life at that moment and there's nothing to complain about

    Picking up an icecream cone and enjoying it and then going home thinking about how it tasted good but you must not have another one. That's 'suffering'

    Going to the park one afternoon and having a great time, then going home and watching the sun go down and longing to be able to come back next week and have more memories and fun with your family.. That's 'suffering'
    If I may ...

    This makes sense. I would say though, that "suffering" is a potential result of these dukkhas - I believe there's a space between "how it occurs" and the "suffering that results" (perhpas there's a bit of semantics at play here) that one can potentially intercept if they so choose. You may not agree, or feel that it is "right" or "ok" to do so, and that's a valid point of view to have (just not how I see it), but perhaps that is a different matter and a different topic.
    Perhaps something I missed

    To me, from my point of view, suffering doesn't happen inside life, life happens inside suffering, the act of existing and being aware of existence, is suffering

    All the things happening in our lives happen within the suffering of existence. As opposed to we can feel things and sometimes things happen that make us suffer

    That's why it means something different, in that buddhist context
    Tired

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  39. Link to Post #40
    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Om Mani Padme Hum

    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    https://tricycle.org/beginners/buddh...-by-suffering/

    This is a good start maybe.
    Seems pretty close to the western definition ... Am I some sort of weird anomaly, that looks at things in life that others see as tragedy and only see's "life's events" without a strong emotional reaction? Am I a psychopath? Is the alleviation of suffering requiring the psychopathic mindset? I dunno ... I don't think I'm a psychopath, I do have strong emotions, but I feel I do not "suffer" as is keeping to be explained to me ... did Jesus suffer? Not that I am Christian .. I am not ... just trying to figure all this out ...

    I hope Mashika can give me perhaps a better definition of suffering that jibes with my experience? Or am I the freak here? (for the record I am ok with being the "freak" ... I just am navigating the world as I see it with the world as everyone else sees it, as that is what reality is made of - my reality and everyone else's reality = reality, no one's is better than any others)
    Just so you know

    Every single time you fight back against what other people like me say, you get farther away from the truth you seem to wish to reach

    But like i said "you don't understand that you don't understand"

    I just wish that you would listen, instead of fighting back, because i could have lots of things to say, but i'm so tired of having the exact same conversation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... and over non stop

    Why can't people in the west just simply say "i don't know, what does this mean"? Regardless of who they are speaking to?

    It would be so easy, and yet
    Everyone knows what "suffering" means and you won't avoid confusion if you keep using it differently. So how about using a different word for "Buddhist suffering" then? Along with a definition?
    Sure, the word is 'Dukkha', and the actual concept goes beyond just "suffering" as in pain or hurt or something that causes me to feel unhappy. I don't think i'm going to be able to explain it correctly because it is learned without words, and written explanations always are missing the core of it

    It's more like "general dissatisfaction",

    Dukkha-dukkha
    For when you get hurt, emotional or physical hurt, as you live, your body dies second by second, you sometimes can feel it over the short time, but always over the long term, you grow old and start seeing it and feeling the changes

    Viparinama-dukkha
    Like when you were enjoying something very much but it goes away or loses the property that made you enjoy it and you stop enjoying, it's 'suffering' too

    Sankhara-dukkha
    Like going to work, achieving what you meant to do, but having a feeling of dissatisfaction because it got done but you hoped to get it done in a different way. That's 'suffering' also, even if everything is ok in your day and life at that moment and there's nothing to complain about

    Picking up an icecream cone and enjoying it and then going home thinking about how it tasted good but you must not have another one. That's 'suffering'

    Going to the park one afternoon and having a great time, then going home and watching the sun go down and longing to be able to come back next week and have more memories and fun with your family.. That's 'suffering'
    If I may ...

    This makes sense. I would say though, that "suffering" is a potential result of these dukkhas - I believe there's a space between "how it occurs" and the "suffering that results" (perhpas there's a bit of semantics at play here) that one can potentially intercept if they so choose. You may not agree, or feel that it is "right" or "ok" to do so, and that's a valid point of view to have (just not how I see it), but perhaps that is a different matter and a different topic.
    Perhaps something I missed

    To me, from my point of view, suffering doesn't happen inside life, life happens inside suffering, the act of existing and being aware of existence, is suffering

    All the things happening in our lives happen within the suffering of existence. As opposed to we can feel things and sometimes things happen that make us suffer

    That's why it means something different, in that buddhist context
    Got it, but I just think there's a bit more distinction to be had, and thus the slight differing of the picture we are each painting here. I feel if you dissect it down further, there is more details to be found, and these details can bring a different type of picture or understanding. That probably sums up the differentiating viewpoints.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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