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Thread: The Beating of Sunday School Kids is OUT!

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    Default The Beating of Sunday School Kids is OUT!

    I'm placing this in the legends thread since many of us know the legendary saying of "spare the rod and spoil the child" but few know how that phrase came to be.

    I was researching another topic and noticed that the Hebrew Rabbin (plural for Rabbi but your spell-checker is probably goy-built) had modified one of their existing proverbs from the Old Testament.

    We see that Proverb 22:15 has been traditionally translated in the Hebrew language version of the Old Testament as: "A nod to the wise is sufficient; the fool requires a blow". (qbible.com/hebrew/) After laughing hysterically for a while, I decided to look up the original Hebrew that they were quoting. Because it couldn't be that funny.

    The King James Version has translated that same chapter and verse as "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

    So it seems that King James' boys decided to bend it so that it would apply to children
    in their Church schools as well. Rods, blows, fools, children .... what's really going on here?

    So I decided to check the Hebrew version to see what they actually wrote in the early Hebrew text. But the actual Hebrew (from the Masoretic text) tells us a completely different story.

    I'm shocked! But not really, since I have seen this many times before.

    The word meanings, in the order that they are given, and with the number of times that each meaning has been used in other portions of the biblical text is:

    conspired 18, bind 14 (to league together)
    folly 13, foolishness 10
    instruction 30, correction 8 (discipline)
    tribe 140, rod 34 (to branch off)
    young man 76, servant 54, child/lad 77
    heart 508, mind 12, (will, understanding)
    in, at, to, on, among, with, towards, by, because of
    than 224, above 46, among 35, any 35, besides 46, outside 52,
    far 25, (to be or become far or distant)

    We should accept the meaning that is used most frequently as having the
    best chance of being the correct one.

    So I believe that they meant something like : "Foolishness conspires in the heart of a young man; reaching further than any instruction." So it was probably just a comment on how difficult it is to train young students, and NOT A COMMANDMENT TO BEAT THEM.

    No rods, no more blows; albeit fools or slow learners they may be!

    So let's all just take it for granted that we no longer have to beat those ignorant kids, the ones that just don't "get" the bible teachings in Sunday School classes.

    BTW - I used to be one of those Sunday School teachers, and in my experience the
    kids actually got the message more often than some of the adults did.

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    Default Re: The Beating of Sunday School Kids is OUT!

    Fascinating!
    Those old adages, repeated, are not unlike the jingles and now memes of advertising and other propaganda used throughout the ages. Funny how they get drilled in our psyches, and are most often unexamined.
    Do you have any others (mis)translations you have discovered, Jim?
    "We're all bozos on this bus"

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    Default Re: The Beating of Sunday School Kids is OUT!

    Quote Posted by Sue (Ayt) (here)
    Fascinating!
    Those old adages, repeated, are not unlike the jingles and now memes of advertising and other propaganda used throughout the ages. Funny how they get drilled in our psyches, and are most often unexamined.
    Do you have any others (mis)translations you have discovered, Jim?
    Hundreds. The Book of Proverbs and Psalms were designed to instruct; to teach the youths or inexperienced ones what really was most true about life, and they are a sort of philosophy as well. But when you have ignorant people translating it centuries later, sometimes the original pearls of wisdom get changed into the eaten corn cobs of hogs, metaphorically speaking. Here are two more examples:


    I'm sure that we have all read this famous passage while studying the bible, but the general
    meaning does not really tell us what the Hebrews meant in regard to this pearl of wisdom.

    The Traditional translation is:

    Proverbs 13:20
    He that walketh with wise [men] shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.

    But actually, by translating each of the original words in paleo-Hebrew into its
    English equivalence (transliteration then translation) it tells us:

    to go, walk, come, depart, proceed, move, go away
    wise, wise (man)
    and, and therefore, also, then, yet.
    to be or become wise, act wisely
    and, and therefore, also, then, yet
    to pasture, tend, graze, feed, to shepherd, to graze of cows or sheep etc
    fool, stupid fellow, dullard, simpleton, arrogant one
    to shout, raise a sound, cry out, give a blast

    So, no destruction, but it seem to represent simply an observation:

    A wise man proceeds and acts wisely,
    and yet the foolish, like grazing sheep, bleat.

    bleat: to make the natural cry of a sheep or goat
    to talk with complaints in your voice or with a whine
    synonym: blather - to talk foolishly at length

    How close is this to our own saying today of - Those than can, do, and those that can't, teach?
    Or, one man gets it done, while others stand around and wonder what happened? I find a direct
    path linking backwards and forwards to the skeptics of our day.

    Something to keep in mind in these days of false rumors, exaggerated reports, fear mongering, and
    the general end of the world attitude that is upon us. Time to act wisely, and proceed. And certainly the concept of shills and bleating sheep comes to mind more often lately.


    HERE'S ANOTHER:


    The Bible assures us that Women are Bad Drivers?

    I happened to be looking at these verses in the Old Testament:
    Proverbs 5:1-8 The Bible in Basic English
    1 My son, give attention to my wisdom; let your ear be turned to my teaching:
    or in other words: Pay attention to the lesson that follows.

    6 She never keeps her mind on the road of life; her ways are uncertain, she has no knowledge.

    Knowing that this is the Masoretic massage of the original text, and that Hebrew had no punctuation nor spaces between words, nor vowels, we could read this same verse as:

    She never keeps her mind on the road of life - her ways are uncertain; she has no knowledge!

    So, it's actually pretty funny, if you are not of the female persuasion, even as it is. Too bad that a word for for translation yields this truth:
    (Below are each word, along with the provided definition by the biblical commentator Gesenius, in his definitions)

    path, road, a well trodden road living, alive, life, living thing, fresh lest, not, beware lest to weigh, make level or smooth, balance to quiver, totter, shake, reel, stagger, wander, move, sift, wave, waver, tremble entrenchment, track , the trench made from the wheels of carts not, no to know, learn to know, to perceive, find out and discern, understand

    So actually, we have something a bit more mundane:

    While on the path of life, beware lest you strive to make it balanced - only to waver in your tracks when you do not learn to understand.

    And yes, one or more of the words take the feminine form, but it would not change the basic meaning. So what is crystal clear is that the verse had nothing to do with females. And so perhaps our biblical scholars should take this verse into account when they attempt to malign the reputation of females in their book. Perhaps they could use some "learning to understand" themselves, right?

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    Default Re: The Beating of Sunday School Kids is OUT!

    Quote Posted by Jim_Duyer (here)
    I'm placing this in the legends thread since many of us know the legendary saying of "spare the rod and spoil the child" but few know how that phrase came to be.

    I was researching another topic and noticed that the Hebrew Rabbin (plural for Rabbi but your spell-checker is probably goy-built) had modified one of their existing proverbs from the Old Testament.

    We see that Proverb 22:15 has been traditionally translated in the Hebrew language version of the Old Testament as: "A nod to the wise is sufficient; the fool requires a blow". (qbible.com/hebrew/) After laughing hysterically for a while, I decided to look up the original Hebrew that they were quoting. Because it couldn't be that funny.

    The King James Version has translated that same chapter and verse as "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

    So it seems that King James' boys decided to bend it so that it would apply to children
    in their Church schools as well. Rods, blows, fools, children .... what's really going on here?

    So I decided to check the Hebrew version to see what they actually wrote in the early Hebrew text. But the actual Hebrew (from the Masoretic text) tells us a completely different story.

    I'm shocked! But not really, since I have seen this many times before.

    The word meanings, in the order that they are given, and with the number of times that each meaning has been used in other portions of the biblical text is:

    conspired 18, bind 14 (to league together)
    folly 13, foolishness 10
    instruction 30, correction 8 (discipline)
    tribe 140, rod 34 (to branch off)
    young man 76, servant 54, child/lad 77
    heart 508, mind 12, (will, understanding)
    in, at, to, on, among, with, towards, by, because of
    than 224, above 46, among 35, any 35, besides 46, outside 52,
    far 25, (to be or become far or distant)

    We should accept the meaning that is used most frequently as having the
    best chance of being the correct one.

    So I believe that they meant something like : "Foolishness conspires in the heart of a young man; reaching further than any instruction." So it was probably just a comment on how difficult it is to train young students, and NOT A COMMANDMENT TO BEAT THEM.

    No rods, no more blows; albeit fools or slow learners they may be!

    So let's all just take it for granted that we no longer have to beat those ignorant kids, the ones that just don't "get" the bible teachings in Sunday School classes.

    BTW - I used to be one of those Sunday School teachers, and in my experience the
    kids actually got the message more often than some of the adults did.
    Where did you go to church? While the nuns in school spanked my hands and rear on a regular basis, I can honestly say I had never been spanked in church and can't imagine hitting a slow learner! How sad!
    "If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” William Blake

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    Default Re: The Beating of Sunday School Kids is OUT!

    Quote Posted by Karen (Geophyz) (here)
    Quote Posted by Jim_Duyer (here)
    I'm placing this in the legends thread since many of us know the legendary saying of "spare the rod and spoil the child" but few know how that phrase came to be.

    I was researching another topic and noticed that the Hebrew Rabbin (plural for Rabbi but your spell-checker is probably goy-built) had modified one of their existing proverbs from the Old Testament.

    We see that Proverb 22:15 has been traditionally translated in the Hebrew language version of the Old Testament as: "A nod to the wise is sufficient; the fool requires a blow". (qbible.com/hebrew/) After laughing hysterically for a while, I decided to look up the original Hebrew that they were quoting. Because it couldn't be that funny.

    The King James Version has translated that same chapter and verse as "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."

    So it seems that King James' boys decided to bend it so that it would apply to children
    in their Church schools as well. Rods, blows, fools, children .... what's really going on here?

    So I decided to check the Hebrew version to see what they actually wrote in the early Hebrew text. But the actual Hebrew (from the Masoretic text) tells us a completely different story.

    I'm shocked! But not really, since I have seen this many times before.

    The word meanings, in the order that they are given, and with the number of times that each meaning has been used in other portions of the biblical text is:

    conspired 18, bind 14 (to league together)
    folly 13, foolishness 10
    instruction 30, correction 8 (discipline)
    tribe 140, rod 34 (to branch off)
    young man 76, servant 54, child/lad 77
    heart 508, mind 12, (will, understanding)
    in, at, to, on, among, with, towards, by, because of
    than 224, above 46, among 35, any 35, besides 46, outside 52,
    far 25, (to be or become far or distant)

    We should accept the meaning that is used most frequently as having the
    best chance of being the correct one.

    So I believe that they meant something like : "Foolishness conspires in the heart of a young man; reaching further than any instruction." So it was probably just a comment on how difficult it is to train young students, and NOT A COMMANDMENT TO BEAT THEM.

    No rods, no more blows; albeit fools or slow learners they may be!

    So let's all just take it for granted that we no longer have to beat those ignorant kids, the ones that just don't "get" the bible teachings in Sunday School classes.

    BTW - I used to be one of those Sunday School teachers, and in my experience the
    kids actually got the message more often than some of the adults did.
    Where did you go to church? While the nuns in school spanked my hands and rear on a regular basis, I can honestly say I had never been spanked in church and can't imagine hitting a slow learner! How sad!
    I was trying to soften the blow a little bit by equating it with Sunday School. Obviously no punishment went on in any Sunday School that I have ever heard of, other than the Catholics who hit people with rulers on the knuckles, etc. Yes, Nuns hitting your hands and rear counts as part of "spare the rod and spoil the child", which is what I was pointing out. It happened more in the early 1900s than now of course, but it is part of what shaped our current generations. The nuns spanked those that were not paying attention. Again, were they relying on a mis-translation of this verse to support their striking with the rod to get your attention? That's what I meant.
    No offense meant certainly.

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    Default Re: The Beating of Sunday School Kids is OUT!

    So what about Proverbs 13:24?

    "Whoever spares the rod hates their children,
    but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them."

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    Default Re: The Beating of Sunday School Kids is OUT!

    Quote Posted by pueblo (here)
    So what about Proverbs 13:24?

    "Whoever spares the rod hates their children,
    but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them."
    I can tell you the fear of the rod kept me in line!!
    "If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, Infinite. For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro' narrow chinks of his cavern.” William Blake

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    Default Re: The Beating of Sunday School Kids is OUT!

    Quote Posted by pueblo (here)
    So what about Proverbs 13:24?

    "Whoever spares the rod hates their children,
    but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them."

    You asked about Proverbs 13:24?

    Thank you for asking. I had not noticed that it ran so parallel to my
    own example. But does it also have a similar meaning to the other verse?

    Yes, this is yet another example that proves my own point - that the Biblical
    text absolutley does not say to spare the rod and spoil the child. As you
    provided, here is how it is traditionally translated:

    "Whoever spares the rod hates their children,
    but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them."

    Here are each of the meanings from the original Masoretic Hebrew
    characters for this verse in question;


    to withhold, restrain, hold back, keep in check, refrain
    rod, staff, branch, offshoot, club, sceptre, tribe, From a root meaning to branch off; a scion,
    + suffix meaning "his"
    to hate, be hateful, to hate (personally):—enemy, foe,
    son, grandson, child, member of a group, children, youth
    + suffix meaning "his"
    and, and therefore, also, then, yet
    to have affection for (sexually or otherwise), lover, love
    + suffix meaning "his"
    to seek, seek early or earnestly, look early or diligently for
    + suffix meaning "his"
    properly chastisement; figuratively reproof, warning or instruction; also restraint:

    As to this last word meaning, we look to useage and context to determine whiich
    meaning fits, based upon how they have been used in other verses of the text.
    The Hebrew was translated as the following meanings, and the number of times:
    instruction (20 times)
    discipline (18)
    punishment (2)
    warning, chastise and reproof are all (1 time)

    So what we actually have in that verse is quite different from what King James
    tells us, and very much in line with my earlier example. But thanks to your
    question, we now have another sad situation. It appears that we are being
    provided with wisdom towards how we should counsel or keep in order the
    members of our extended family or tribe. And the situation that this verse
    speaks of is one of abuse of minors. When one is observed to mistreat his
    own children, what advise does the Bible provide to us in order to help
    put him back into a loving path? That's what my translation of this
    verse gives:

    To keep in check a relative (or tribal member);
    the hateful anger he has towards his children,
    and therefore to have his affection,
    seek early and diligently for his instruction.

    So, in order to control the perhaps frustrated or alcohol induced anger
    that has arisen between one of your relatives and his own children, and
    to ensure that those children have the life that they deserve, this verse
    was placed in the Bible to help us. And that answer is very simple - very
    early on, and with great determination and diligence, instruct him
    in the error of his ways.

    But again, no rods, no beatings, no children being punished, but, in this
    example, exactly the opposite.

    Would it not serve to have this taught in Church in replace of
    the traditional explanation and command to not spoil the rod?

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    Default Re: The Beating of Sunday School Kids is OUT!

    I Should Mention .... That I myself received a figurative "rod" at home, and I gave it only once or twice to my own kids - who thereafter never needed to be spanked again, only threatened. And they all grew up, none are on dope and none in jail, so it does work. I'm not against the idea, infrequently applied. It's just that I don't like the Biblical text being twisted into a form of control mechanism. We should read it the way it was intended, in my opinion.

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