WW3? Ukraine/US vs. Donbass/Russia

[Ravenlocke]

Caution video at end shows pics of crushed faces.

https://twitter.com/Dpol_un/status/1579895107423440897

https://twitter.com/RussiaUN/status/1579903646736998400

[Ravenlocke]

Maybe the rhetoric is changing before the G20 summit…
As well the midterm elections due next month…

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...43850977918976

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/coope125/status/1579915742635773952

[TargeT]

Posted by Ravenlocke (here)
Maybe the rhetoric is changing before the G20 summit…
As well the midterm elections due next month…

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...43850977918976

I'm watching... you seem watchable.........


and by that I mean... please put some more of "you" into your posts...... you seem sus, divide and conquer has two sides.... are you one of those???

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/apocalypseos/sta...85562043961344

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...87551431303169

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...87562130976768

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...88343995777025

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...88353570947073

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...88348542050304

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...88359074267136

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...88363746328576

¤=[Post Update]=¤

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...92488689143809

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...92552664883200

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/jaccocharite/sta...87673511120896

[TargeT]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by Ravenlocke (here)
Maybe the rhetoric is changing before the G20 summit…
As well the midterm elections due next month

I'm watching... you seem watchable.........

also.... what is 9 times 9... are you a human or just a polarization bot.... can you do two things at once?


what does pink look like? (do you know how to interact?)



If you can go 10 posts with out a twitter link I will wire you 500$ USD... (better hurry, paste proof here in this thread, inflation is decaying the worth of that offer).



Rather than that..... how about this. post ONE MORE inane twitter link; just for posterity.

R E S P O N D like a human you bot.......... or don't, I'd like to say this would be a challenge, but you haven't made it one.

Mod note from Bill:
Who the heck are you talking to here, and why?
Reported Tweets and Telegram posts are 100% fine. This is a mainly a Ukraine news thread.
It's an efficient way of reporting rapidly changing information, a lot better and less time-consuming in many cases than long videos. If anyone doesn't appreciate that, then just skip the posts and instead write some intelligent personal commentary about the situation, all of which is always appreciated.

[Tintin]

Posted by loungelizard (here)
I began to read the "Audacious" brochure (from Grayzone) with interest, but soon called hoax on it. It looks like a travel brochure rather than a serious military document.

Have you read it? It’s pretty juvenile, and isn’t even written in British English - there are several US spellings (maneuvre? maximise?) and words that are never heard here in the UK (indiction? re-enforcing?). It’s full of spelling errors (vesses? temporally? or my favourite - Black Sea Feet??!) together with random and excessive use of capital letters which is always a red flag - and the date is written in the US style, not the way we write it in the UK.

So no, there's no way Hugh Ward wrote this

Well, respectfully, I've read through the entire document.

This is actually a Powerpoint presentation with the slides converted to PDF, and I know from experience that occasional errors are made particularly when these are put together in a hurry where time is short.

'Interdict' is often used in language relating to military topics, and, again from experience, sometimes creators of these sorts of presentations will copy and paste from other documents and any Americanisms that appear would likely have been sourced from US military literature.

Kit Klarenberg is one of the very best interpreters of intelligence literature so would be very well placed to detect any red flags. He hasn't and overall there really aren't at all that many errors.

I don't have quite the same level of experience as Kit, obviously, but I am familiar enough with this sort of literature to comfortably assess that this is not a hoax, or a brochure.

[Journeyman]

I understand Target's point and support his intention. If this thread isn't the place for it, then maybe discussion could take place elsewhere, but it should take place.

I'd like to discuss the war,, but this thread feels like a vehicle for reposting select channels providing one particular viewpoint, many appear to better meet the description of propaganda rather than independent reportage. There are few personal viewpoints being shared, it appears more like a twitter or telegram feed drawn from a narrow frame of reference. The effect on the reader is akin to stepping into an echo chamber than a meeting of minds.

What's worse is that the propaganda posts appear to be carefully calibrated to bring about a particular psychological response. I see a lot of labelling being used. It shouldn't matter what your perspective on these events, any one of us should realise that propaganda exists on all sides of a conflict. The first casualty of war is the truth. Acknowledging that and realising that there are likely truths being voiced by those on the other side is the first step in seeing opponents as human beings rather than the 'other' who can be easily demonised and dehumanised by a label.

If the intention is to capture news, then perhaps there's scope for two threads, one purely for sharing news links and a second where forum members are encouraged to give their own thoughts on what's taking place? That's a thread I'd be interested in posting in. Whereas at present, this thread could just as easily be connected to a few RSS feeds and left to broadcast that one perspective.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Journeyman (here)
The first casualty of war is the truth.

I understand your point, I truly do.

But there are not two versions of actual truth here. Anyone who thinks there are, should know better by now maybe having been a forum member for some time.

I state that definitively, and while it'd be tiresome to argue the point (and I truly don't want to spend time doing so! ), it can easily be done.

Regarding the updates, I don't have a smart phone, or a Telegram or Twitter account, so I for one very much appreciate Revenlocke's posts. They're easy to read at a glance, often link to more in-depth articles or videos, and they're simple to skip if the content seems uninteresting at that moment.

To balance that, I totally encourage members to post informed personal opinions about it all, and I try my best to do that myself.

(Mashika is a great example. Even from her hospital bed, she posts long, thoughtful and insightful comments that are almost always thought-provoking. And English isn't even her first or second language, go figure.)

So: in a fast-changing situation, where anything could happen at any time, and there's much much else happening in the world as well in tandem, top-line 'what's-just-happened' summaries are very helpful.

Long long videos with no summaries or time-stamps at all ARE NOT!

This thread is super-important. The entire world is changing before our eyes because of the events reported here every day.

And, for anyone who's silly enough to think that Ravenlocke is not a real person. I've exchanged PMs with her myself (hey, TargeT, PMing her is so easy to do!! ) to thank her for what is really quite a lot of ongoing work she does every day, which I personally appreciate.

[Bill Ryan]

From 0:49—19:08 in this new video (streamed 12 hours ago) here's Col. Douglas Macgregor talking to Clayton Morris from Redacted.

I never cease to be impressed at his articulate, concise summary of very complex and difficult issues. In all the time I've watched him, in my opinion he's never got a single thing wrong. He's not explaining what many following this thread don't already know, but for Doug Macgregor fans (and I am one ) this is another treat.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=1u519OI7pPM

[Journeyman]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Journeyman (here)
The first casualty of war is the truth.

I understand your point, I truly do.

But there are not two versions of actual truth here. Anyone who thinks there are, should know better by now maybe having been a forum member for some time.

I'm not saying there are two versions of actual truth:

Posted by Journeyman (here)
The first casualty of war is the truth. Acknowledging that and realising that there are likely truths being voiced by those on the other side is the first step in seeing opponents as human beings rather than the 'other' who can be easily demonised and dehumanised by a label.

And there obviously are some truths being voiced from the Ukrainian side. Even if you see this, as sometimes framed here, as a Manichean struggle between good and evil, can you really argue that one side has a monopoly on truth? That everything coming out of the Kremlin is true and everything from Kiev false? That's a big claim! The problem with the polarised viewpoint that's a hallmark of propaganda and which is increasingly presented here is that the grey areas are removed, the points where opposing forces could potentially meet half-way are eliminated. In this thread we're guaranteed to see the deeds of Kiev represented in the worst possible way and the deeds of Moscow in the best. Historical context is provided in one direction only.

Don't get me wrong, exactly the same process is taking place in many western media discussion sites, only in reverse. They will see something like this:

and form their views of Russian attitudes from clips like this:

There's no shortage of nutcases on either side of this conflict and if you're selective with what you show it's easy to demonise one side or the other. That's a process that's underway in both West and East right now. I just don't think we should follow suit and at present this thread is presenting a distorted view, which ultimately is harmful to all concerned.

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
I totally encourage members to post informed personal opinions about it all, and I try my best to do that myself.

I appreciate that Bill and the work that you and the moderating team do.

To be honest after the response I got last time I pointed out some obvious deceptive propaganda I'd given up posting here and just used it read only. I've only broken silence because I appreciated Target's intentions and thought it worth voicing my support. However having voiced my opinion, radio silence once more.

[Tintin]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Journeyman (here)
The first casualty of war is the truth.

I understand your point, I truly do.

But there are not two versions of actual truth here. Anyone who thinks there are, should know better by now maybe having been a forum member for some time.

I state that definitively, and while it'd be tiresome to argue the point (and I truly don't want to spend time doing so! ), it can easily be done.

Regarding the updates, I don't have a smart phone, or a Telegram or Twitter account, so I for one very much appreciate Revenlocke's posts. They're easy to read at a glance, often link to more in-depth articles or videos, and they're simple to skip if the content seems uninteresting at that moment.

To balance that, I totally encourage members to post informed personal opinions about it all, and I try my best to do that myself.

(Mashika is a great example. Even from her hospital bed, she posts long, thoughtful and insightful comments that are almost always thought-provoking. And English isn't even her first or second language, go figure.)

So: in a fast-changing situation, where anything could happen at any time, and there's much much else happening in the world as well in tandem, top-line 'what's-just-happened' summaries are very helpful.

Long long videos with no summaries or time-stamps at all ARE NOT!

This thread is super-important. The entire world is changing before our eyes because of the events reported here every day.

And, for anyone who's silly enough to think that Ravenlocke is not a real person. I've exchanged PMs with her myself (hey, TargeT, PMing her is so easy to do!! ) to thank her for what is really quite a lot of ongoing work she does every day, which I personally appreciate.

Yes, absolutely

I would also add that the thread has had to evolve to keep relevant, informative, and critically important updates as alive as possible and available, for all. I would also stress that what we are all trying to do and actually doing here is (to) objectively present the other voices in this unravelling story so we can assess history from a better fairer informed perspective, that legacy media both won't allow or countenance, and that also maintains permanent archives of what it disseminates, sometimes for many decades.

We need this information, badly; how else can we attain a deeper understanding of what really is an at times most complex situation, without this?

This is what I am also attempting to do in the library; to ensure that there's as permanent a record as is possible for one already busy person to capture and maintain, so that history can be better judged and understood, tomorrow, and isn't lost.

As you (all) are then and keep it coming

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Journeyman (here)
And there obviously are some truths being voiced from the Ukrainian side.

None that I know of!

Not one.
If you have a counterexample, please do post it... I would appreciate that.

[Vicus]

Ukraine gets highly anticipated arms from Germany – Spiegel
Kiev has received the IRIS-T air defense system even before Berlin’s own military

Ukraine has received the first of four IRIS-T SLM air defense systems from Germany, Der Spiegel reported on Tuesday. With its own weapons stockpiles seriously depleted, Germany is gifting this ultra-modern system to Kiev before its own forces.

The system – which comprises a command vehicle, a radar vehicle, and a truck-mounted launcher capable of firing eight missiles – was handed over to the Ukrainian military next to the Polish-Ukrainian border on Tuesday, the German magazine reported.

The handover took place four days after German Defense Minister Christine Lambrecht made an unannounced visit to Ukraine, where she promised her Ukrainian counterpart, Aleksey Reznikov, that his country would receive the IRIS-T “in a few days.” German Chancellor Olaf Scholz pledged to provide this system to Ukraine back in June, with delivery initially slated for November.

In an update on Monday, Lambrecht said that Russia’s devastating missile strikes on Ukrainian military and infrastructure targets that morning showed “how important it is to supply Ukraine with air defense systems quickly.”

Berlin has promised Ukraine at least four IRIS-T systems, each of which can supposedly strike incoming missiles up to 40 kilometers (25 miles) away. Ukraine has reportedly asked Germany for at least a dozen of these systems, and offered to purchase them directly from the manufacturer, Diehl Defense.

Germany’s own military has yet to field a single ground-based IRIS-T system, with the remaining three pledged to Ukraine yet to be manufactured, Der Spiegel reported. Germany has faced persistent criticism from Kiev for its supposed hesitance in donating sufficiently heavy weaponry, but the arms it has sent have left its own stocks depleted.

Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock warned of “absolute deficits” in Germany’s weapons stocks in August, and a report by Business Insider on Saturday revealed that the Bundeswehr (German Army) has only enough ammunition for two days of warfare.

https://www.rt.com/russia/564488-ukr...y-iris-system/

[Vicus]

NATO admitted it’s at war with Russia – Medvedev
The former Russian president has claimed the bloc’s secretary-general confirmed its direct participation in the Ukraine conflict

NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg may have inadvertently admitted that the Western military alliance is at war with Moscow, at least in the eyes of former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev. At issue is Stoltenberg’s statement on Tuesday that a military victory for Russia in Ukraine would be a defeat for NATO.

Medvedev called the comment “an open confirmation of NATO’s participation in the war against our country – an unwise, but pure-hearted remark. The honest Norwegian fellow has finally admitted it.”

Stoltenberg, formerly prime minister of Norway, made his comments in a press briefing as NATO ministers prepared to meet on Wednesday with Ukrainian Defense Minister Aleksey Reznikov. Among other issues, the ministers will discuss how to meet Kiev’s “urgent needs” and shore up their own weapons stockpiles after shipping billions of dollars’ worth of military aid to Ukraine in hopes of helping to defeat Russian forces.

“There’s an urgent need for air defense, but of course also many other capabilities – precision-guided ammunition, HIMARS and other advanced, modern, NATO-standard systems,” Stoltenberg said of Ukraine’s aid requests. He added that NATO members are providing unprecedented support because “they understand that we have a moral, political and security interest in ensuring that Ukraine wins the war against President Putin.”

Russian officials have pointed out that providing more advanced weaponry to Ukraine, such as multiple rocket launcher (MRL) systems, will increase the risk of triggering a wider conflict. “The fastest way to bring the conflict in Ukraine to the point of no return is to arm the psychos in Kiev with longer-range MRLs,” Medvedev said. “The elderly leaders of Washington and NATO upstarts must use their softened brains at least sometimes.”

Stoltenberg insisted that NATO is “not a party to the conflict,” even as it plays a “key role.” He vowed that the bloc will stand with Ukraine “as long as it takes” to defeat Russia. “It is important for all of us that Ukraine wins the battle, the war against the invading Russian forces, because if Putin wins, that is not only a big defeat for Ukrainians, but it will be a defeat and dangerous for all of us.”

The NATO chief also accused Putin of “reckless nuclear rhetoric,” contributing to “the most significant escalation since the start of the war.” However, when asked whether the risk of a miscalculation amid heightened tensions with Russia prompted NATO members to consider canceling or modifying the bloc’s planned nuclear drill next week, he said, “Now is the right time to be firm and to be clear that NATO is there to protect and defend all allies.”

https://www.rt.com/news/564503-medve...berg-nato-war/ please delete

[Vicus]

Kiev targets ‘pro-Kremlin’ senior cleric
The priest has rejected accusations, blaming the SBU raid on a conspiracy by a rival schismatic Orthodox Church

Ukraine’s Security Services (SBU) have raided the office and residence of senior cleric Ionafan, accusing him of sowing religious discord and supporting Russia.

Ionafan is the metropolitan bishop of the Tulchin diocese in Vinnitsa Region, subordinate to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (UOC), which declared independence and autocephaly from the Moscow Patriarchate earlier this year following the outbreak of the ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine.

“The metropolitan on his own internet resource posted publications containing calls for inciting interfaith hatred. The expertise commissioned by the SBU confirmed the illegal nature of the suspect’s actions,” the security service said in a statement.

The SBU claimed it had seized incriminating materials, including various “printed pro-Russian content and propaganda literature.” Imagery released by the SBU shows assorted leaflets, including one reading “Donbass is Russia,” credit cards issued by the country’s SberBank, as well as a portrait of Patriarch Kirill, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church.

A pre-trial probe into the bishop’s alleged activities has been launched. So far, however, Ionafan has not been detained by the Ukrainian authorities.

The priest has firmly rejected the allegations raised by the SBU, claiming that the raid was part of efforts to seize a local cathedral from the UOC. Moreover, the metropolitan implied the “evidence” recovered during the raid of his home had been planted.

“I believe that the aforementioned actions are deliberate and directed against the Ukrainian Orthodox Church as a whole and against the authority of the Tulchin diocese hierarchs and sowing confusion among its clergy and believers. And in the future, the capture of its Tulchinsky Christ-Nativity Cathedral in favor of a ‘privileged’ religious organization,” Ionafan said in a statement.

While the cleric did not name the “organization” explicitly, he was apparently referring to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU), a breakaway entity established with active help from the country’s authorities and then-president Petro Poroshenko. Ukraine has long experienced religious tensions, with multiple unrecognized entities claiming to be the true Ukrainian Orthodox Church and challenging the authority of the Moscow Patriarchate.

Poroshenko’s efforts, however, caused an open schism within the Ukrainian Orthodox community back in 2018. The rivalry between different churches was further aggravated by the ongoing conflict, with the UOC declaring its autocephaly from the Moscow Patriarchate back in May.

https://www.rt.com/russia/564545-ukr...ox-cleric-sbu/

[kfm27917]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ing-in-ukraine

[Michel Leclerc]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Journeyman (here)
The first casualty of war is the truth.

I understand your point, I truly do.

But there are not two versions of actual truth here. Anyone who thinks there are, should know better by now maybe having been a forum member for some time.





I state that definitively, and while it'd be tiresome to argue the point (and I truly don't want to spend time doing so! ), it can easily be done.

Regarding the updates, I don't have a smart phone, or a Telegram or Twitter account, so I for one very much appreciate Revenlocke's posts. They're easy to read at a glance, often link to more in-depth articles or videos, and they're simple to skip if the content seems uninteresting at that moment.

To balance that, I totally encourage members to post informed personal opinions about it all, and I try my best to do that myself.

(Mashika is a great example. Even from her hospital bed, she posts long, thoughtful and insightful comments that are almost always thought-provoking. And English isn't even her first or second language, go figure.)

So: in a fast-changing situation, where anything could happen at any time, and there's much much else happening in the world as well in tandem, top-line 'what's-just-happened' summaries are very helpful.

Long long videos with no summaries or time-stamps at all ARE NOT!

This thread is super-important. The entire world is changing before our eyes because of the events reported here every day.

And, for anyone who's silly enough to think that Ravenlocke is not a real person. I've exchanged PMs with her myself (hey, TargeT, PMing her is so easy to do!! ) to thank her for what is really quite a lot of ongoing work she does every day, which I personally appreciate.

I agree fully Bill.

Target, I have always appreciated your dry comments. Well, you know the story about facts and interpretation. How aware we need to be of the fact that interpretations are not, or are more than, facts. But we tend to forget that in order to give meaningful interpretations of facts, we need to have the facts first. Ravenlocke does that, not “all” the facts, but facts. Maybe with a propagandistic slant occasionally (not Ravenlocke’s, but the author’s of the quoted message), but then that slant can be peeled off rather easily and you, I can still get to the facts. As in the West, where I live, news is heavily censored, and as I do not wish to have a Twitter account, I appreciate to get facts so my interpretation stance can start working.

Journeyman. “The first casualty of war is the truth”. An empty statement. If that were the case, any initiative that may end a war is hopeless. This statement either holds for any social transaction, where lying is always involved, or for none. War is not special in that. And, as in any social transaction, truth is also there. It is essential that we look for it and find it – as for any social transaction.

We need as much truth as possible, and that means as many facts as possible. And our interpretation of them should be as open-minded as possible (I’m writing that with Richard D. Hall’s thoughts in mind about the timing of the Nato-supported planned large-scale attack of the Donbass prior to Russia’s special military operation as a function of the larger purposes of the anti-"covid" inoculation program), mobilising our faculties as comprehensively as ppossible.