WW3? Ukraine/US vs. Donbass/Russia

[Ravenlocke]

The Limits of Ukraine's Offensive and the High Price to Pay When it Ends

Update on Russian operations in Ukraine for October 5, 2022

- Latest US aid package falls far short of replacing steep Ukrainian losses amid continued offensives;
- Ukraine’s offensive has limited capabilities, will not achieve “victory” over Russian forces in territory deemed “Ukrainian” by Kiev;
- Ukrainian offensive is an “all-or-nothing” proposition, hoping to achieve psychological and political gains toward ending the conflict in ways Ukrainian military force cannot;
- Western analysts celebrate the psychological impact the offensive is having on pro-Russian media, pundits, and even prominent members of Russian society;
- In reality, Ukraine will be left overextended and vulnerable just as Russia’s 300,000-strong mobilization begins shaping the battlefield.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=pONjlORXdFQ

Also in the above video,

https://twitter.com/Navsteva/status/1577698397431242752

[shaberon]

Posted by Justplain (here)
You like to discount the chechyan campaign, and deflect criticism by pointing at whatever atrocities the USA did. We are talking about the Ukraine invasion here, not USA stuff. The chechyan campaign is integral to this discussion because that campaign used the same militaery techniques as what Russia is trying to employ in Ukraine: flatten the opposition with artillery. So, don't try to say that Ukrainians self inflicted all these communities with artillery, that's just horse manure.

You koolaid drinkers are NOT giving this conflict an objective view. You're painting Russia as saviour, which is completely false. Sure, Ukraine has plenty of guilt here, but so does Russia.

I absolutely abhor violence. I absolutely detest the use of force to obtain anything. I'm of the hippie peace love dove mindset. This 'military operation's 'noble' goals could have been achieved through much more peaceful and constructive means. I am sure of this. Any other excuses you make up to justify this repulsive situation is half backed horse manure from an fsb psyop lab.

But Ukraine is "USA stuff".

Major problem.

They could have achieved "peaceful means" some other way than by shelling the Baby Twins for eight years.

I personally have no problem with violence. I would be glad to discuss with anyone why I might kill you or not. This is a subject that may deserve attention in the near future.

Stop calling us "koolaid drinkers" and telling us what we are thinking. I would just like to overthrow about eight governments in the next eight years. Sound familiar? Just different ones from what we were told.

These are terrible posts sounding as if you are trolling the thread. Can you tell us something we don't know??



Here is a little update on pass the buck:


The entirety of the discretionary budget for 2022 was $1.52 trillion.


This is the part that is useful to us, maybe:


The Department of Energy receives $46.1 billion in funding.


But:

Counting regular military spending, veterans affairs and foreign aid, the total military budget for the United States is $1.168 trillion per year. That does not include related spending, like money spent on the intelligence budget that funds three letter organizations...

US National Debt Tops $31 Trillion For First Time in History

The $31 trillion total debt amounts to $93,419 per person


That's per person, not taxpayer...but even if it is close to accurate...at 1%, that is $934 per year you have to pay for debt service.

In the U. S., you pay around a thousand dollars a year on interest and never touch this $31T principal debt. Whether or not you agree with the imbalance that siphoned most of it away from anything useful.

Those bastards do not have my permission, and, if lethal force was the only way to redress it, that is what would come out of this.

How do we de-nazify something "peacefully and constructively"?

Isn't that what 60s acid rock was unleashed to prevent??

We are the DoD, you eat boots.

And now what, I hold Russia accountable for whatever happened on Patrice Lumbumba Street? Right.

No, I would still just tend to dissolve the "United" union. These massacres don't affect my politics. Unfortunately my politics does not really affect anything. If it had, then none of this would have even been possible.

None of this is possible, and, it may take a few more years for our Dollar and our English stuff to finally disintegrate like so much ash, but what do you think it was made of?

Sometimes I wish I knew what might be in an FSB "lab". I am down the street from probably the world's biggest psyop which was originally designed to steal you after a nuclear strike. Now we just kind of game it at "South American countries" randomly. Pretty big budget for around eighty years now. But that probably doesn't really work, either.

Deprivation of economic opportunity still makes those military careers sound good.

If there was a chance one might have thought maybe Russia was "overreacting", that went out the window with finding a quarter-million man Ukrainian invasion force already in due progress. Is this a mistake? Did they not have this buildup back in February??

[Tintin]

In my eyes, we are peering here into the abyss of the consolidated activities of horizontal (inter-ministerial) and vertical integration of modern state propaganda: from the ministries—and their partnerships with transatlantic think tanks like the [London] ISD—down to the press, "fact-checkers", social media, "multipliers", "critical civil society" and so on. We're even stooping to making schools and primary school-aged children get involved.

- Whistleblower

--------------------------

Alex Thomson, a chap I have much time and respect for, for not only his high intellect but also his truthfulness, talent and thoroughness, has provided a most illuminating piece that has been published on the UK Column website. One of his areas of expertise is his multi-lingual ability and he has clearly invested some time in providing this translation.

It's a thoroughly recommended read which sheds much light

Source: UK Column

-------------------

Leak: German Government's Ukraine war propaganda campaign



by ALEX THOMSON, EASTERN APPROACHES
Wednesday, 5th October 2022

The below is a translation, made with the permission of the author, of Part I (dated 29 September 2022) of Florian Warweg's exclusive article in NachDenkSeiten, a careful and reliable German new media platform. The original there contains several screenshots of the German document that has been leaked.

Leaked document: How the Federal German Government is working on "Gleichschaltung of the narrative" on the Ukraine war—Part I

NachDenkSeiten has exclusively been leaked an internal document of the German Government. We were able to verify the paper and we also know the identity of the whistleblower. The document gives an illuminating insight into the extent of the horizontal and vertical structures of—there is no other way to put it—propaganda by the German state at federal level, especially as regards the official involvement of media (e.g. Der Spiegel and Stern), Western social media corporations, educational institutions and so-called "fact-checkers". Even primary school children are being targeted. What emerges is a concerted attempt by the Federal Government to subject information to Gleichschaltung.

The document is entitled "Current Activities of Departments and Authorities against disinformation in connection with the RUS war against UKR", runs to ten pages, and meticulously lists the relevant activities of the federal ministries and subordinate authorities as of 27 June 2022. Moreover, these activities are altogether quite something.

In this first [published] part of its evaluation, NachDenkSeiten will concentrate on the role of the BMI (Interior Ministry), the AA (German Foreign Office), BPA (Federal Press Office) and BKM (Federal Commissar for Culture and the Media). In the second part, we shall look at the activities of the BMDV (Ministry for Digital Affairs and Transport) as well as the BMFSFJ (Ministry for Family Affairs) and the BMVg (Ministry of Defence) [all likewise at federal level].

Socialist-run Interior Ministry the hub for state propaganda activities
The list begins with the SPD-led Federal Ministry of the Interior (BMI) under Nancy Faeser. The BMI is to take the lead and coordinate the "identification of and defence against hybrid threats" in an "interdepartmental" manner. This will be led by the "UAG RUS/UKR" (UAG stands for "sub-working groups" in ministerial parlance). One of the undertakings in this regard is a situation report on "Hybrid Threats" with a focus on Russia-Ukraine, to be drafted every fortnight. However, the "Ten-Point Resilience Plan" listed in the document is particularly eye-catching.

The first point in this "plan" is concerted "linking to fact-checkers on federal government websites". Private "fact-checkers" such as Correctiv, or contribution-financed ones such as the ARD-Faktenfinder, financed mainly by the US billionaire and eBay founder Pierre Omidyar, are to be massively advertised through the "websites of the Federal Government". So much for the vaunted "political neutrality" and "independence" of the fact-checkers.

Furthermore, pamphlets on "disinformation in the context of the Russian war of aggression against Ukraine" are to be produced and sent to federal ministries and elected representatives in the Bundestag, Länder [states] and municipalities. The list is replete with the reference: "Distribution to multipliers in civil society is underway".

The fifth point in the "Resilience Plan" is also particularly revealing; it is devoted to cooperation with the press. Mention is made, for example, of a "Spiegel background discussion" on 31 March and the preparation of features and interviews with Interior Minister Faeser; explicit reference is made in this context to Stern and Tagesspiegel. It is also mentioned that the term "Anti-Disinformation Task Force" has successfully been embedded in [media] reporting. In the document, (Russian) "disinformation" is understood as anything that amounts to accurately reporting the official Russian position. And this is exclusively in relation to the Russian side. Neither official Ukrainian nor US talking points on the war in Ukraine are assessed by the German Government as "disinformation" per se in the same manner.

Another aspect of the plan is "outreach into the parliamentary arena", i.e. influencing members of the Bundestag and state parliaments. This is not an unproblematic undertaking, given the established separation of powers between the executive and the legislature.

Likewise, the "resilience plan" has as a central point the "occasion-related" intensification of contacts and talks with the platform operators of social networks "in order to sensitise them to state-directed disinformation". The document explicitly mentions Twitter, Meta, Google and Telegram in this regard. The talks are to be held at "junior minister [Staatssekretär] level".

No less problematic is the plan to influence the "curricula in schools as well as the involvement of adult education centres and voluntary bodies".

Finally, the plan states that the work on the implementation of the "Action Plan of the Federation and the Länder [states] against Disinformation and for a Defensible Democracy" has begun.

German Foreign Office, Press Service and Office of Chancellor's Media Tsar also key actors in state propaganda and censorship efforts

In addition to the Ministry of the Interior, the German Foreign Office (AA) appears in the document as a protagonist in the supposed "fight against [Russian] disinformation". It is noticeable that the whole gamut of measures by the AA is couched exclusively in terms of "Russian disinformation", and emphatically creates the impression that "disinformation" and the shaping of narratives only come from one single country worldwide.

For instance, the German Foreign Office document on "Measures as part of the RUS/UKR communication concept" mentions:

- Observation and analysis of current Russian narratives and disinformation
- Creation of a "living document" that "deconstructs/debunks classic and current
Russian narratives on the Ukraine war"
- Promoting projects to "build resilience to (especially Russian) disinformation [...]"

According to this document, the AA primarily networks—"intensively and bilaterally"—with US counterparts on disinformation issues. Explicitly mentioned in this context are the International Partnership to Counter State-Sponsored Disinformation (IPCSD) and the Counter Foreign Interference Group (CFI).

[Note by Alex Thomson: 'CFI' is a term used by other Western countries, including Australia. The leaked document screenshot embedded in the original article mentions "Counter Foreign Interference (CFI) Group" but this could well be an error for a similarly-named body, whether in the US, elsewhere or transnational. UK Column has reported on the scale of the British effort.]

The last point in the document concerning the activities of the AA is also revealing. It speaks of "[...] promoting the project proposals submitted by Deutsche Welle and DW Akademie for the expansion of reporting on UKR/RUS, as well as strengthening media competence [...]". We thus note that the German Foreign Office, a federal ministry led by the top Green politician Annalena Baerbock, is planning to fund projects of the [taxpayer-funded] German foreign broadcasting service, Deutsche Welle. How this is compatible with the Deutsche Welle Statute (DWG), which obliges [the broadcaster] to facilitate "an independent formation of opinion", would be just one of several questions raised by these Foreign Office plans revealed in the document.

The Federal Press Office (BPA), together with the Federal Foreign Office (AA), is in charge of the so-called "EG Desinformation" (when asked by telephone by NachDenkSeiten on 27 September what "EG" stands for in this context, the responsible head of service at the BPA could not provide any information). According to the document, the BPA is responsible for "raising awareness within the Government on the topic and dealing with disinformation". In addition, it offers "interdepartmental training" on disinformation. What is striking here is that the training is not provided by the BPA itself, but by private third-party providers such as the Institute for Strategic Dialogue (ISD) and the Business Council for Democracy of the Hertie Stiftung [German tax-exempt foundation].

The ISD, with its expressly transatlantic orientation and its headquarters in London, has such illustrious board members as Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg, the management consultant Roland Berger, and the CEO of Axel Springer SE, Matthias Döpfner.

"Interdepartmental training" on disinformation for employees of the federal ministries is thus being carried out by a transatlantic lobby organisation whose "board" includes exposed plagiarists, and the head of Springer-Presse—speaking of disinformation—which regularly spreads fake news, as well as the private foundation of a department store tycoon. The federal authorities' approach to outsourcing probably doesn't get much better than this reduction to the absurd.

Finally, the document lists that the deputy government spokespersons regularly engage in "bilateral exchanges with Google/YouTube, Twitter, Meta, TikTok and LinkedIn to discuss the platforms' "respective strategies to combat disinformation, particularly in the context of the war in Ukraine".

That is to say that, according to the document, both the Interior and Foreign Ministries, as well as the Federal Press Office, each hold regular bilateral meetings (at junior minster [Staatssekretär] level) with the major platform operators on "Russian disinformation" regarding the war in Ukraine. The pressure to conform and censor that this all adds up to can be considered significant.

Six-year-olds on board

Another major player is the Federal Commissar for Culture and the Media (BKM), Claudia Roth, who reports directly to the Chancellor. She has a budget of over two billion euros, 400 employees, and is responsible for federal government media policy (and finances bodies including the German foreign broadcasting service, Deutsche Welle, as part of this framework).

In the internal document seen by NachDenkSeiten, there is talk, among other ideas, of "setting up a Russian editorial office-in-exile in Riga [capital of Latvia]" and "if necessary, setting up a Ukrainian editorial office-in-exile in Kraków, Poland". According to the paper, the BKM seems to be playing a central and proactive role among the EU Council of Media Ministers in "taking action against Russian propaganda media".

Likewise, the BKM is taking a lead role in the negotiations on the Orwellian-sounding "European Media Freedom Act" and is seeking to focus on "disinformation" there.

According to the document, the BKM is also planning a new funding programme "with a focus on promoting news literacy among the general population to combat disinformation".

Another project that raises questions is the use of child reporters from the age of 6 against "disinformation", a term not specified further. The document states, among other things:

"Children's reporters — Strengthening the news competence, and thereby resilience to disinformation, of 6–14-year-olds through active media work."

Finally, reference is made to the Deutsche Welle project "Artificial Intelligence against Disinformation" (KID), in which "AI modules of digital forensics are to be used to improve the (partially) automated identification of manipulation and concerted disinformation campaigns". Brave new world...

Whistleblower's concerns

The whistleblower also explained to us what motivated him to make this leak. He told NachDenkSeiten that when this document arrived on his work computer, he was deeply shocked. For him, he said, this was "a concerted attempt at narrative synchronisation". He went on:

"In my eyes, we are peering here into the abyss of the consolidated activities of horizontal (inter-ministerial) and vertical integration of modern state propaganda: from the ministries—and their partnerships with transatlantic think tanks like the [London] ISD—down to the press, "fact-checkers", social media, "multipliers", "critical civil society" and so on. We're even stooping to making schools and primary school-aged children get involved."

Furthermore, he told NachDenkSeiten that this document is only "the tip of the iceberg" and that the projects listed are not exhaustive. Everything listed in this document would still be a manageable leak for the Federal Government, he said, as it only included the measures that could be admitted to in [PR] communications if in doubt. The German public had no idea what else was going on behind the scenes, he added.

Finally, something about the presumed author of this internal document. According to the metadata of the original Word document, this German government list was compiled by a person whose name we are withholding out of respect for his private life, but whose curriculum vitae provides interesting insights into who draws up such "interdepartmental" papers on this topic.

Practically nothing can be found out about the author online, but what little can be found speaks for itself. On LinkedIn, there is a post thanking the author of the document "Current Activities of Departments and Authorities against disinformation in connection with the RUS war against UKR", written by BwConsulting (BwConsulting is the in-house consulting company of the Federal Ministry of Defence) for the partnership, and the author has also written a reference book on the management of NATO and EU military operations.

Addendum by Alex Thomson

Part II can be read in the original German here. The final screenshot embedded in Part II speaks of the Bundeswehr (German armed forces) involving “young people in particular” in dialogue on security policy, with a package on “hybrid threats” delivered in concert with the Security Policy Academy (BAKS) and another package planned on “Society and Resilience”, to be delivered in concert with the Bertelsmann Stiftung.

The text in the screenshot goes on to state that “youth officers” of the Bundeswehr, “specially trained in teaching methods”, are—apparently already—being dispatched to schools to “raise awareness of security policy and defence policy” through “direct dialogue”.

--------

Related articles:

Beyond Integrity Initiative: The Scale of UKGOV Counter Disinformation

The British Military Information War Waged On Their Own Population

[Ravenlocke]

https://www.rt.com/news/564123-bolto...-change-putin/


John Bolton wants US to push for ‘change regime’ in Russia

Former White House national security adviser John Bolton insisted on Wednesday that only “regime change” in Moscow can achieve long-term US objectives in Europe. He proposed funding Russian “dissidents” who could team up with mid-level officers to overthrow President Vladimir Putin in a coup.

“There is no long-term prospect for peace and security in Europe without regime change in Russia,” Bolton argued in an article titled “Putin Must Go,” which was published by the online journal 1945.

Change “must involve far more than simply replacing Putin,” according to Bolton. “The whole regime must go.”

Bolton actually opened the article by quoting President Joe Biden, who said in March, “For God’s sake, this man cannot remain in power.” Biden’s aides had scrambled to walk that back, with Secretary of State Antony Blinken arguing that “we do not have a strategy of regime change in Russia – or anywhere else, for that matter.”

The very next day, however, Biden insisted he wasn’t backpedaling, and that his remarks were not “articulating a policy change” but “expressing moral outrage… and I make no apologies for it.”

While serving as President Donald Trump’s national security adviser, Bolton championed regime-change policies for Cuba, Venezuela, and Iran – and derailed Trump’s diplomacy with North Korea, after which he was dismissed in September 2019. Yet the official US position on Havana, Caracas, and Tehran has not changed since Biden took office.

Regime change has been the US goal in Russia for years
Regime change has been the US goal in Russia for years
The Kremlin reacted to Biden’s remarks by calling him a “victim of many delusions.” Putin’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov said the question of who should be in power in Russia is not up to any US citizen, but for Russians to decide.

“Carefully assisting Russian dissidents to pursue regime change might just be the answer,” Bolton argued, in a twist to Peskov’s logic. “The key is for Russians themselves to exacerbate divisions among those with real authority, the siloviki... Once regime coherence and solidarity shatter, change is possible.”

Bolton claimed that “Russians are already discussing it, quietly, for obvious reasons” and brushed off concerns that Russia is a nuclear power, saying “that is no more an argument against seeking regime change than against assisting Ukrainian self-defense.”

He also accused Moscow of subverting the US government “for many decades” and blowing up its own Nord Stream pipeline.

“Washington’s obvious strategic objective is having Russia aligned with the West, a fit candidate for NATO, as we hoped after the Soviet Union’s breakup,” Bolton argued. The US goal “of a peaceful and secure Europe… remains central to our national interests. This is no time to be shy,” he concluded.

An outspoken neoconservative who believes in American unilateralism, Bolton held government positions under Republican presidents Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush. The Biden administration claims that Iran plotted to have him assassinated.

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1577986923049750529

https://www.rt.com/russia/564154-ukr...cities-debunk/

German newspaper debunks false Ukrainian claim about Russian ‘torture’

A pile of gold teeth, which Ukraine alleged had been pulled from civilians by Russian troops to torture them, actually belonged to a local dentist, Bild reported on Wednesday.

On Tuesday, the Ukrainian Defense Ministry posted a picture on Twitter of what it called “a torture chamber” in Peski Radkovskiye, a town in Kharkov Region. The photo depicted a gas mask, which, according to the ministry, was used to torture the local population, and a box of gold dental crowns lying on the grass.

“How many more will be found in occupied Ukraine?” it asked, hinting that it was Russian troops who had committed the atrocities.

However, according to Bild, the teeth apparently belonged to patients of a local dentist, not to Ukrainian torture victims.

“These teeth look like those stolen from my collection,” Sergey, 60, told the outlet when he was shown the photo distributed by the Ukrainian authorities. “I’m the only dentist here. So if they were found here, they must have come from me.”

When asked if the teeth could have come from dead people, the dentist categorically dismissed the notion. “Oh God, no! They belonged to the people I’ve treated all these years. I pulled out these teeth because they were bad,” he explained.

The dentist also voiced suspicions that it was Russian troops who stole them, either because they thought them to be made of gold, or to intimidate local residents.

Lavrov puts spotlight on ‘impunity’ in Ukraine
Lavrov puts spotlight on ‘impunity’ in Ukraine
While the teeth were not a product of torture, local residents claimed that Russian troops had been involved in a number of alleged atrocities. They said soldiers had beaten some local residents and used them as forced labor for digging trenches. Moscow has repeatedly denied allegations that it has committed war crimes in Ukraine.

Russia sent troops into the country on February 24, citing Kiev’s failure to implement the Minsk agreements, designed to give the regions of Donetsk and Lugansk special status within the Ukrainian state. The protocols, brokered by Germany and France, were first signed in 2014. Former Ukrainian president Pyotr Poroshenko has since admitted that Kiev’s main goal was to use the ceasefire to buy time and “create powerful armed forces.”

In February 2022, the Kremlin recognized the Donbass republics as independent states and demanded that Ukraine officially declare itself a neutral country that will never join any Western military bloc. Kiev insists the Russian offensive was completely unprovoked.

[Tintin]

...and some comments from the thread, here:

Here's the link to The Daily Mail news story: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Russians.html

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/jaccocharite/sta...45780983414785

https://twitter.com/jaccocharite/sta...45787828506624

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/jaccocharite/sta...49019443265536

https://twitter.com/jaccocharite/sta...49026246336518

[Justplain]

Corbett Report:. 'Putin has accomplished everything he set out to prevent'-

https://corbettreport.substack.com/p...ates-from#play

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/Dpol_un/status/1578086165839740941

https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1578083098339811335

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1578080403075760135

https://www.rt.com/news/564144-eu-co...-ukraine-nato/

EU commissioner warns Ukraine on NATO bid

Ukraine’s goal of becoming a part of NATO cannot be realized as long as it is engaged in armed hostilities with Russia, EU Commissioner Thierry Breton has said.

Speaking on the French TV channel BFM on Thursday, Thierry Breton called the ongoing conflict a disqualifying condition for Kiev’s bid. Ukraine’s President Vladimir Zelensky earlier sent a request to NATO, asking the US-led bloc to grant Ukraine candidate status and fast-track it into the alliance.

“To apply for NATO membership, you must not be a country at war,” the French businessman and EU commissioner for the internal market said. “Accessions are made when the countries are at peace” because otherwise the entire alliance would be dragged into the conflict that the new member is engaged in.

As “Ukraine is, alas, a country at war,” its demand for NATO membership is a “symbolic, political demand,” Breton argued.

Ukraine declared its strategic goal of joining NATO after the 2014 Maidan coup in Kiev. In 2019, the policy choice was enshrined in the nation’s constitution.

Only nine members voice support for Ukraine’s NATO bid
Only nine members voice support for Ukraine’s NATO bid
Last Friday, Zelensky signed on camera a formal call to “accelerate” his country’s accession, arguing that Ukraine was “de facto” already part of the organization. His office heavily implied that a positive reaction would follow.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg reiterated on the same day that the bloc maintained its previous stance. While it supported Kiev’s fight against Russia and kept the door open, “NATO is not party to the conflict” and would not change its Ukraine policy, the official told journalists.

Nine central and eastern European members of the alliance have expressed support for Ukraine’s proposed swift accession, but others, including the US, either tacitly or directly rejected it. Bulgaria said Kiev and Moscow must be at peace before Ukraine can join the bloc.

When Russia sent troops into Ukraine in late February, it cited a growing threat to its national security as one of the reasons. Moscow accused NATO of a creeping expansion into Ukraine despite not formally accepting it as a member, and said it crossed Russia’s red line.

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/AZgeopolitics/st...73606042656772

[Ravenlocke]

https://twitter.com/GeromanAT/status...27526508290049

https://twitter.com/coope125/status/1577765516705468425

https://twitter.com/coope125/status/1578003002467799048

[Chester]

Posted by Bob_2011 (here)
Uncovered: Box of gold teeth ‘pulled from Ukrainians’ at Russian torture chamber

What was the excuse for the Russians invading, Oh yea to de-Nazify Ukraine, hmm what does this (if its true) remind you of , yep !

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-un...090645157.html

When you look at your source and are well-informed of this sources track record for massive, intentional disinformation, then a discerning individual would have doubts about its validity and not post such crap.

Third strike for me (ignore list addition completed).

Folks, the feature's there for a reason. If everyone ignored the compromised and/or witting dis-info agents, they would get nothing but echo chamber responses. Beyond the compromised and/or witting dis-info agents stands plenty of space for intelligent debate as to this war, reasons each side my put forth in any attempt to justify the actions by their side of choice, but this can only be done if folks are honest and broadly informed. Those who only get their information from professional propagandists (on EITHER SIDE) should post elsewhere. This is a serious thread.

[Chester]

Posted by shaberon (here)

Posted by Justplain (here)
You like to discount the chechyan campaign, and deflect criticism by pointing at whatever atrocities the USA did. We are talking about the Ukraine invasion here, not USA stuff. The chechyan campaign is integral to this discussion because that campaign used the same militaery techniques as what Russia is trying to employ in Ukraine: flatten the opposition with artillery. So, don't try to say that Ukrainians self inflicted all these communities with artillery, that's just horse manure.

You koolaid drinkers are NOT giving this conflict an objective view. You're painting Russia as saviour, which is completely false. Sure, Ukraine has plenty of guilt here, but so does Russia.

I absolutely abhor violence. I absolutely detest the use of force to obtain anything. I'm of the hippie peace love dove mindset. This 'military operation's 'noble' goals could have been achieved through much more peaceful and constructive means. I am sure of this. Any other excuses you make up to justify this repulsive situation is half backed horse manure from an fsb psyop lab.

But Ukraine is "USA stuff".

Major problem.

They could have achieved "peaceful means" some other way than by shelling the Baby Twins for eight years.

I personally have no problem with violence. I would be glad to discuss with anyone why I might kill you or not. This is a subject that may deserve attention in the near future.

Stop calling us "koolaid drinkers" and telling us what we are thinking. I would just like to overthrow about eight governments in the next eight years. Sound familiar? Just different ones from what we were told.

These are terrible posts sounding as if you are trolling the thread. Can you tell us something we don't know??



Here is a little update on pass the buck:


The entirety of the discretionary budget for 2022 was $1.52 trillion.


This is the part that is useful to us, maybe:


The Department of Energy receives $46.1 billion in funding.


But:

Counting regular military spending, veterans affairs and foreign aid, the total military budget for the United States is $1.168 trillion per year. That does not include related spending, like money spent on the intelligence budget that funds three letter organizations...

US National Debt Tops $31 Trillion For First Time in History

The $31 trillion total debt amounts to $93,419 per person


That's per person, not taxpayer...but even if it is close to accurate...at 1%, that is $934 per year you have to pay for debt service.

In the U. S., you pay around a thousand dollars a year on interest and never touch this $31T principal debt. Whether or not you agree with the imbalance that siphoned most of it away from anything useful.

Those bastards do not have my permission, and, if lethal force was the only way to redress it, that is what would come out of this.

How do we de-nazify something "peacefully and constructively"?

Isn't that what 60s acid rock was unleashed to prevent??

We are the DoD, you eat boots.

And now what, I hold Russia accountable for whatever happened on Patrice Lumbumba Street? Right.

No, I would still just tend to dissolve the "United" union. These massacres don't affect my politics. Unfortunately my politics does not really affect anything. If it had, then none of this would have even been possible.

None of this is possible, and, it may take a few more years for our Dollar and our English stuff to finally disintegrate like so much ash, but what do you think it was made of?

Sometimes I wish I knew what might be in an FSB "lab". I am down the street from probably the world's biggest psyop which was originally designed to steal you after a nuclear strike. Now we just kind of game it at "South American countries" randomly. Pretty big budget for around eighty years now. But that probably doesn't really work, either.

Deprivation of economic opportunity still makes those military careers sound good.

If there was a chance one might have thought maybe Russia was "overreacting", that went out the window with finding a quarter-million man Ukrainian invasion force already in due progress. Is this a mistake? Did they not have this buildup back in February??

Great post and now I have a second opinion as to why I am utilizing the ignore list feature (again for this same member).

[Johnnycomelately]

Posted by Chester (here)

Great post and now I have a second opinion as to why I am utilizing the ignore list feature (again for this same member).

I also agree with Shaberon’s response to that post of Mr. Plain. And, no disrespect to the latter, I am thankful for it having been seen by by the former. I have not blocked anyone here, not like back on LL where there were some seriously offensive and useless posters. I’ve talked to this irritant of yours, presented what I thought was a good counter. I hope that you will unblock yourself, and invest some energy in saying how you think different. Justplain is not a bad guy.

[Harmony]

Thank you to everyone trying to help Justplain understand the full situation of what is going on.


Nobody knows what another member and their family may have been through in the past. Justplain has stated that is wife and son are Russian and he deserves the respect of having his own views even if others may not agree with him, and hopefully a fuller view can be had as everyone looks deeper into the history and how things have changed in the present now.


Here is a link to a post by RunningDeer:


Special Report: Reset in Ukraine, Part 2 with Karel Van Wolferen (1:30:00)September 28, 2022

By Catherine Austin Fitts
Karel van Wolferen is an author, journalist, professor, publisher and one of the most respected voices in the Netherlands on geopolitics.

In March, I visited Karel for a wide ranging discussion on his views about events in the Ukraine and how they relate to the push for central control globally. We so enjoyed our discussion, I returned on April 15 to continue our discussion….and debate!

[Tintin]

"For the ghouls saying they don't see destruction [from Ukrainian shelling], I'm subtitling clips of destroyed apartment buildings and houses." - Eva Bartlett

--------------------

On the referendums Craig Murray published an interesting, but in my view deeply flawed interpretation of their 'legality' predicated on the international rules usually used to conduct them, and assuming they be conducted in a peaceful environment. Essentially he was splitting hairs through an academic lens and perhaps, unusually for him, misread the genuine will of the people; the referenda were fair, and he had perhaps been selective in conveniently ignoring the collective west's activities in Kosovo in the 90s. (Golan Heights as well anyone?)

However he did post up some interesting statistics which should serve as a reminder for those paying attention (and it is clear that some are not), that Ukraine have been shelling their own people [since 2014] along with a great many others. His take-away should have been that if there was a 99.7% turnout anywhere that this represented the will and desire of all the below listed peoples - that's fairly conclusive one would have thought

-----------

Craig's full article is here, from which this portion has been extracted:

The last census in Ukraine was in 2001, conducted under the pro-Russian president Leonid Kuchma. These are the narodnosc results as percentages for the regions Putin has just annexed.

Donetsk Region

Ukrainians 56.9
Russians 38.2
Greeks 1.6
Belarussians 0.9
Tatars 0.5
Armenians 0.3
Jews 0.5
Azerbaijanians 0.2

Luhansk Region

Ukrainians 58.0
Russians 39.0
Belarussians 0.8
Tatars 0.3
Armenians 0.3

Kherson Region

Ukrainians 82.0
Russians 14.1
Belarussians 0.7
Tatars 0.5
Moldavians 0.4
Armenians 0.4
Crimean Tatars 0.2

Zaporizhzhia Region

Ukrainians 70.8
Russians 24.7
Bulgarians 1.4
Belarussians 0.7
Jews 0.2
Armenians 0.3
Tatars 0.3
Georgians 0.2

In none of the regions Putin has just annexed were Russians a majority in 2001, let alone a 99.7% majority. Apparently 6.4 million Ukrainians have simply vanished.

(Mod comment: academic, and a somewhat fallacious comment; around 10 million have actually either fled, sought citizenship status in Russia and other European countries, or I may helpfully add, been murdered, disappeared or sacrificed by successive Kievan regimes. He - Craig - may have been on the Lagavulin when he wrote this - Tintin)

For completeness here were the 2001 results for Crimea:

Russians 58.3
Ukrainians 24.3
Crimean Tatars 12.0
Belarussians 1.4
Tatars 0.5
Armenians 0.4
Jews 0.2
Poles 0.2
Moldavians 0.2
Azerbaijanians 0.2

[Rizotto]

Posted by Justplain (here)
Corbett Report:. 'Putin has accomplished everything he set out to prevent'-

https://corbettreport.substack.com/p...ates-from#play

Thanks Justplain for this very interesting interview. Eye opener for sure. MUST SEE!

The most shocking to me is that the covid jab is mandatory for the entire Russian military personnel, including the new 300,000 conscripts? Those conscripts who refuse the jab face 10 years in prison!?? And the Sputnik injection they use in Russia is just a version of the dangerous Astra Zeneca jab that many countries have abandoned for being unsafe. But Russia does not compile safety data on this 'clot-shot'? I'd like to believe that none of this is true, but it all seems quite factual. (Would like to hear from anyone here who knows otherwise.)

The one thing not discussed in this interview is Russia's claim of USA sponsored bioweapons labs in Ukraine. Probably because they're known to exist, not only in Ukraine but also in many countries around the world.

At any rate, there is so much happening so quickly these days, that trying to keep up might leave one in a state of confusion. I've often wondered if that is in fact the goal of the major players.

[Isserley]

Posted by Rizotto (here)

Posted by Justplain (here)
Corbett Report:. 'Putin has accomplished everything he set out to prevent'-

https://corbettreport.substack.com/p...ates-from#play

Thanks Justplain for this very interesting interview. Eye opener for sure. MUST SEE!

The most shocking to me is that the covid jab is mandatory for the entire Russian military personnel, including the new 300,000 conscripts? Those conscripts who refuse the jab face 10 years in prison!?? And the Sputnik injection they use in Russia is just a version of the dangerous Astra Zeneca jab that many countries have abandoned for being unsafe. But Russia does not compile safety data on this 'clot-shot'? I'd like to believe that none of this is true, but it all seems quite factual. (Would like to hear from anyone here who knows otherwise.)

The one thing not discussed in this interview is Russia's claim of USA sponsored bioweapons labs in Ukraine. Probably because they're known to exist, not only in Ukraine but also in many countries around the world.

At any rate, there is so much happening so quickly these days, that trying to keep up might leave one in a state of confusion. I've often wondered if that is in fact the goal of the major players.

I have been thinking about the situation with covid vaccines in Russia for some time now and here is the answer.
I'm not surprised.
Sometimes it seems to me that all this is The Shelling of Mainila incident al over again or simply a systematic Russification of the neighboring countries that would eventually result in a newly conquered land.
But Im probably wrong eh..