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Thread: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

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    Default THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    THE KNIGHTS TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA
    PART ONE (of TWO)


    1. At a symposium celebrated in 1992 at Castilla la Vieja, Soria, Spain, the then Grand Prior General of the Sovereign and Military Order of the Temple of Jerusalem, Fernando del Toro Garland, confirmed the existence of documentary proof of voyages made by the Knights Templars to America before Columbus.

    Columbus consulted the Templars' nautical archives in the possession of the Orden de Calatrava in order to persuade Isabel la Católica to finance his voyage to the New World.(footnote 1)


    2. The purpose of the Templar voyages to South America was to mine and then import silver to Europe for their own purposes. If one takes into account that the Templars always paid with coins of genuine silver, a metal of greater value at that time than gold, the mystery remains for modern historians where the Templars obtained the silver since apart from a few small mines in Germany it was not to be found in Europe.

    If one adds the fact that the Order maintained a fortified port on the Bay of Biscay at La Rochelle, the seventeen or so ships based there (the fleet as at 1307) being of no value for the defence of the Middle East, one may reasonably assume that they were used to sail between France and the coast of Brazil in connection with the silver mining activities of the Order in Bolivia.

    (Footnote 1) See Antonio Las Heras, La Trama Colón, Ediciones Nowtilus, Madrid. The author is an Argentine broadcaster, author and journalist. The book is about Columbus and his discovery of the New World.

    PART TWO follows.

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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    Quote Posted by Mecklenburger (here)
    The purpose of the Templar voyages to South America was to mine and then import silver to Europe for their own purposes.
    That simple sentence contains a LOT.

    It surely implies established trade and long periods of systematic exploration, very probably including the building of good relationships with indigenous people.

    How do you sail to a new continent and straightaway start mining silver? (You don't!) That might take dozens or maybe even hundreds of trips over two or three centuries, and perhaps a longstanding permanent settlement of quite some sophistication.

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    United States Avalon Member Denise/Dizi's Avatar
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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    There are so many relics in America, and stories carried through generations of natives that suggest there was much more happening upon the land I call home, long before we ever thought it possible. Including many pyramids that quite easily outdate, given the wear, those in Egypt.

    I could not imagine those relics being tucked away to hide the true history of this nation. The city I was born in, has things that predate missions, and the stories we have been given.. Dwellings made of tunnels, walls of home carved out of the land.. Most certainly NOT English settlers, and not native indians, and they will tell you as much...

    The stories the natives tell are vast and varied, but many suggest we share this planet with others that live below us, and that at times of hardships, they come up and help humanity to survive, teach them to sprout seeds, and keep themselves fed. From ant people to human looking beings. Tall Giants with fiery red hair, and more. And there are skeletons that have been dug up, and or discovered and displayed throughout local history here.. But they're quickly tucked away, never to be seen again, only a few old articles and photographs.

    I would suspect that if these stories are true, the Templars learned long ago, from other ground dwellers, that America existed, and indeed was worthy of traveling to and mining.

    The truth would be nice wouldn't it???
    Last edited by Denise/Dizi; 5th April 2021 at 23:57.

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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    Sh*ts been going on for years!

    Excellent series here, from Forum Borealis:

    Pt: 1


    Pt: 2


    Pt: 3



    For those not familiar with Forum Borealis, head-on over for some excellent video content..... In spite of Youtube's latest effort, Al is still managing to get info out on the Youtube channel.
    May your Spirit stay unbroken, may you not be deterred.

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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    Bill Ryan

    I take your point but the connection for trade would be between the Templars and the Incas. In fact the only operator of a silver mine of any size worth mentioning in the Americas in 1200 AD was the Incas and there was only one mine, operated amongst fields of maize. Does that ring a bell?

    There had been contact between the Vikings and the Incas during this period at Lake Titicaca as de Mahieu showed and one would assume the introduction came from the Vikings who were still in the area until at least 1250 AD. The Templars would have had to barter to obtain the silver on a regular basis, but whatever might have been brought from Europe to induce the Incas to trade eludes me at the moment.
    Last edited by Mecklenburger; 5th April 2021 at 22:47.

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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Mecklenburger (here)
    The purpose of the Templar voyages to South America was to mine and then import silver to Europe for their own purposes.
    That simple sentence contains a LOT.

    It surely implies established trade and long periods of systematic exploration, very probably including the building of good relationships with indigenous people.

    How do you sail to a new continent and straightaway start mining silver?
    Well it does say "voyagers" (plural) so that may signify this was a long term plan. Perhaps they assumed that the locals would be doing the mining for them, or perhaps they thought the locals were already engaged in mining.

    My question is how did they know the metallic riches of South America would be silver and not gold? Centuries later, Columbus, Pizarro, Cortes, explorers and conquistadors from the 1490s to 1540s, were pillaging and murdering their way through the Americas with their main objective being gold, not silver. Little did they understand that the most of the peoples they were terrorizing prized silver more highly than gold. How did these Templars know then that South America had lots of silver mines but not much in terms of gold?

    The other question was, what was the purpose of acquiring this wealth? Whether we are talking about the Templars, Ferdinand and Isabella or their grandson, Charles V, it should be obvious - driving Islam and the Ottoman empire out of South eastern Europe and the Holy Land and taking Jerusalem - and they needed the precious metals to finance their wars.

    Five hundred years later, this project is still in the works and significant progress is being made. One should ask, why do these people:
    • the Knights Templar
    • 15th and 16th century arch Catholic monarchs
    • the Zionist movement (at least the part of it that would have no interest in helping holocaust survivors find a home)
    • the people behind the Project for the New American Century

    have in common??? They are all trying to acquire wealth and power and using it to violently take control of the Middle East and the "Holy Lands". Is there a connection?

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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    Kryztian

    The word is "voyages" and not "voyagers".

    As you will have noticed from my inital post, section two, I explained that at that time, i.e. 1200 AD, silver was of greater value in Europe than gold.

    You also missed that I said above that "the locals" were the Incas and they were already engaged in operating the only silver mine of mentionable size in all the known Americas. It seems pretty clear to me that the idea of the Templars was to get a regular supply of silver back to the Templar mint. This is off subject but I believe that their their ultimate aim was to get rid of the Catholic Church. That could not be done without money. There you have my personal answer to your question "What was the purpose of acquiring all this wealth?" However the purpose of this thread is to discuss what evidence there is for the Templars having come to South America and nothing more.

    If, as it appears, you want to get passionate about Catholic monarchs 400 years later, the Zionist Movement and the Project for the New American Century, please do remember that the 13th century Templars cannot possibly have foreseen any of this, and are not to blame.
    Last edited by Mecklenburger; 6th April 2021 at 03:00.

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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Mecklenburger (here)
    The purpose of the Templar voyages to South America was to mine and then import silver to Europe for their own purposes.
    That simple sentence contains a LOT.

    How do you sail to a new continent and straightaway start mining silver? (You don't!) That might take dozens or maybe even hundreds of trips over two or three centuries, and perhaps a longstanding permanent settlement of quite some sophistication.
    Yes settlements, in Brazil they found evidences of such settlements on the coast and in the country and they connected the "dots" and it leads straight to Bolivia border, many of these places are covered in Jungle already, a straight line from the Brazilian coast to Bolivian border.
    A local guy in Joao Pessoa - Paraiba - Brazil told me once the entire history of Brazil is a big big big lie, there was people in and out long before the Portuguese came, they even say that one of the trading posts located in Cabo Frio - Rio de janeiro was there before the Portuguese settlement, the time Portuguese decided to take over the land, it is believed that more than 7 million indigenous people were killed and replaced by slaves from Africa, there is old documents dated more or less to the same period, trades leaving from Amazon, it is believed that before the colonization Brazil was flourishing.
    The local indigenous population at time, didn't consented with the Portuguese invasion and many of them fought until death, they never surrendered, in the old books there is history of Portuguese "domesticating" the indigenous people but without success, they always fought back, it was a total mess and blood bath.

    There is stories about the Jesuits introduced the Christian religion in Brazil, and forcing the local indigenous people to change from shamanism/folk's religion into Christians, also there is documents saying some of the Jesuits were pure evil to the tribes, killing those who refused to convert, but also documents says Jesuits help them out, not converting but with practical issues, like trading hard wood for soft wood due to lack of tools to cut the wood in the tribes. There is also quite a few old movies depicting the story, one I remember is called "Brave New Land" from 2000 it is a cooperating Brazilian - Portuguese production, unfortunately like many other movies about Brazil, it starts in the 15th century, but you can see some of the Jesuit priests joined forces with the tribes to help them out against the Portuguese, and others Jesuit priest they tried to convert them.

    Brazil used to have lots of Gold and Diamond, Silver is Bolivia and Peru, probably they used Brazil to reach those countries, if they were coming from Europe, shortest route for sure, and it explains all the settlements found from the Brazilian cost into Bolivia.

    Here is one recent photo of one of those settlements found years ago, most of them are covered in jungle.

    Last edited by palehorse; 6th April 2021 at 05:55.
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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    Quote Posted by Mecklenburger (here)
    Bill Ryan

    I take your point but the connection for trade would be between the Templars and the Incas. In fact the only operator of a silver mine of any size worth mentioning in the Americas in 1200 AD was the Incas and there was only one mine, operated amongst fields of maize. Does that ring a bell?

    There had been contact between the Vikings and the Incas during this period at Lake Titicaca as de Mahieu showed and one would assume the introduction came from the Vikings who were still in the area until at least 1250 AD. The Templars would have had to barter to obtain the silver on a regular basis, but whatever might have been brought from Europe to induce the Incas to trade eludes me at the moment.
    Pure speculation on my part but given the Templars connection to bringing spices, ginger etc into Europe, perhaps they would be a logical choice to use in trade for silver?

    This account of the possible move to Nova Scotia and the link to the skull and crossbones and 15 men on a dead man's chest here:

    https://www.captaintonz.com/templar.html

    Obviously later than we're talking about here but it seems interesting that the settlement at Nova Scotia is reckoned to be well established by this point, so perhaps another clue pointing towards a Westward orientated Templar presence?

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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    That simple sentence contains a LOT.

    It surely implies established trade and long periods of systematic exploration, very probably including the building of good relationships with indigenous people.

    How do you sail to a new continent and straightaway start mining silver? (You don't!) That might take dozens or maybe even hundreds of trips over two or three centuries, and perhaps a longstanding permanent settlement of quite some sophistication.
    I agree, and the reason for the silver trade wasn't because there were only silver mines in Germany, but because of the Black Death that reached Europe in 1347.

    Silver deposits are found all over Europe; plentiful potential mines were in Britain, Spain, Greece, Poland and the area known in antiquity as Thrace. It is known that there were mines in these areas from antiquity onwards.

    The toll of the Black Death is not precisely known, but is estimated to have killed between 40% to 60% of the populations of Asia, the Middle East and Europe. This led to a significant labour shortage and it is well recorded that crops lay unharvested as there were too few labourers to harvest them, and wages for labourers rose.

    There also would have been too few miners to extract silver, and labourers would have been paid in silver coinage, not gold; so there you have an increase in wage costs requiring more silver and too few to mine it for minting.

    I find it odd that if for this reason the Templars were trading across the Atlantic at this time that the plague didn't reach South America, though maybe the quarantine period had ended with the length of the voyage. There's a theory that rats weren't to blame as it was a viral infection and The Return of the Black Death is an excellent read about this. The plague reached Iceland but there were no rats there at that time, which lends further support for this.

    The Templars clearly knew where else to look to obtain silver.
    Last edited by Brigantia; 6th April 2021 at 12:44. Reason: Typo

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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    My one or two offered thoughts about this fascinating subject weren't really academic.

    I'm just completely astonished, the more I think about it, about what these men did and where they went. In those days, sailing from Europe to South America — maybe with poor maps, no means of calculating longitude (presumably!), with no communications back home, and with little or no idea what might await them and even if they'd ever return to their families — makes it all a much greater feat of speculative pure courage than going to Mars in our time. It's more like going to Alpha Centauri!

    And South America is huge, and was then wild, dangerous and thickly forested. Let alone the presence of the Andes mountains. Even if they landed on Brazil's Atlantic coast (which I'm sure they did), how they may have found (e.g.) Lake Titicaca and reached it boggles the mind. A reminder where it is...


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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    Ah, but did they have poor maps, Bill?

    I remembered 'lodestone' and found this article in a mainstream source about it; the Chinese were reported to have used lodestones for navigation for over 2000 years. The Vikings were also said to have had a stone for navigating that would show them the position of the sun when obscured by cloud - a type of clear quartz, maybe?

    One article I read some years ago was that when the climate was warmer (I can't remember why that was relevant), it was possible to sail to North America and be in sight of land for the whole voyage; Shetland Islands, Faroe Islands, Iceland, Greenland and then the eastern coast of Canada. Maybe they took the long route and went down the eastern American coast?

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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    Many thanks particularly to Palehorse for this indication of cutting across country from Brazil to establish contacts. A missionary priest, Gnupta, did it when he arrived with the Norman ships in the 12th century as is evidenced so I am told by his pastoral notebook.
    About ten years ago I was involved in a group investigating the possibilities in Buenos Aires. I am hoping to finish the article in one sitting shortly when I will provide the published evidence for the Inca mine and show the problem associated with the logistics.

    Brigantia
    Professor de Mahieu wrote four other books mentioning this subject of the Vikings in the Americas: Le grand voyage du Dieu-Soleil, Paris 1971, L'agonie du Dieu-Soleil, Paris 1974, Drakkars en el Amazonas, Buenos Aires 1978 and La geografia secreta de America antes de Colon, Buenos Aires 1978. He relates landings on the coast of Mexico in the tenth century under a leader named Ullmann, the Viking arrival being remembered locally. From there they travelled by various means to the foot of the Andes and ascended into Peru.
    The Norman trade in brazil-wood trunks is well documented by French official papers of the time at Customs and Excise posts such as Harfleur, Caen and Dieppe. The Templars are bound to have known about this traffic.
    Last edited by Mecklenburger; 6th April 2021 at 23:09.

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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    When I was a kid,I was interested in traveling on land or sea and from time too time in my books I found different information regarding old ways of navigation and I found out that beside that the sailors used Sun and starts for orientation,they were also guided by the colour of the sea during clear sky,cloudy or during storms,taste of water,fauna in the waters,what winds blow in certain times and so on.So,by me,it was very simple to follow a certain route for traveling.

    On the other hand,reading Meck's information I wonder if the legend in which is told that the South Americans native waiting the red bearded gods is not related vikings/Templars travels in South America before Columbus.
    "Your planet is forbidden for an open visit - extremely aggressive social environment,despite almost perfect climatic conditions.Almost 4 billion violent deaths for the last 5000 years and about 15000 major military conflicts in the same period."

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  29. Link to Post #15
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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    PART TWO

    3. It has been shown that on the great island Marajo on the Brazilian coast, from at least the 12th century the Vikings felled brazilwood trees for export to Norman France. From Marajo, Normans and Vikings, (whose capital was established at Tiwanaku village on Lake Titicaca), and eventually Templars were able to establish contact across very difficult country to the remnants of the Tiwanaku empire and the Incas at Lake Titicaca. It is confirmed that contact was made (Mahieu, El Rey Vikingo, 1979) and the probable basis for barter was weapons of war for the Incas against payment in silver to the Templars.

    The area of Bolivia which most interested the Templars for the silver deposits lay on the eastern side of Lake Poopo. The population was a collectivity known as the Asanaqi who kept large herds of llamas and farmed fertile and irrigable fields principally for maize in the Cochabamba Valley. The area also had enormous silver deposits.There was even a Tiwanaku enclave at the south end of the lake.
    This area was therefore very well known to the Tiwanaku remnant and the Incas, and the Vikings must have heard talk of it too. (See: S.Elizabeth Penny, The Making of an Indigenous Andean Politics, Introduction p.6-8.

    "Porco was worked by the Incas for silver for centuries. Ores were galena, blende, ruby silver and other silver minerals. The Incas extracted the silver by smelting the ore, cupelling the resulting bullion and returning the residue for further smelting." Porco was or is about twenty kilometres SW of Potosi. The immense deposits of silver at Potosi itself, only recently close to exhaustion, were not discovered by the Spaniards until the 16th century.

    Even before the Incas moved in to take over the region in the 1400s, "as early as 1200 AD the excavation of heavy metals had begun at Lake Poopo for materials to support the Inca Army." So here was what could be bartered: Templar weapons and materials of war for silver ore. (http://www.lakepedia.com, also see Wikipedia "Lake Poopo").

    In the Final Part: The Logistics

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  31. Link to Post #16
    Australia Avalon Member Violet3's Avatar
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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    Quote Posted by The Moss Trooper (here)
    Sh*ts been going on for years!

    Excellent series here, from Forum Borealis:

    Pt: 1


    Pt: 2


    Pt: 3



    For those not familiar with Forum Borealis, head-on over for some excellent video content..... In spite of Youtube's latest effort, Al is still managing to get info out on the Youtube channel.
    Fabulous information. I was not aware that Al (the host) is so well informed, which makes the interviews pretty deep and wide ranging.

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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    It might even be possible that the information obtained to ensure the voyages to the Americas were taken from the Phoenicians, maps they might have used or even maps which survived the Great Library take out.

    Obviously the endless discussion about the Paraiba inscription (fake or not) and the small artifacts found in van Diemensland (Australia) back up the theory that Phoenicians were all over the place at their time.

    https://www.boloji.com/articles/1438...n-the-americas

    http://www.australiaforeveryone.com....oenicians.html

    The mining the Phoenicians did in for instance Australia (according to) might back up this theory, the Templars would have had access to many of their deliveries and perhaps even solid proof of certain areas. Obviously there's Rosslyn Chapel, the maize and Cacti patterns on the stone works years before Columbus reached the Americas, still puzzling People from all over, it is said that Henry I Sinclair went to the Americas in around 1398. But, like most things the latter is not set in stone although it makes one wonder. Obviously mainstream already dismissed the theory without any proof, like, well... always I guess.
    "Respect Him, Breath of Life". "-AMN-"

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  35. Link to Post #18
    Scotland Moderator Billy's Avatar
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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    Quote Posted by The Moss Trooper (here)
    Sh*ts been going on for years!

    Excellent series here, from Forum Borealis:

    Pt: 1


    Pt: 2


    Pt: 3



    For those not familiar with Forum Borealis, head-on over for some excellent video content..... In spite of Youtube's latest effort, Al is still managing to get info out on the Youtube channel.
    All posted here in this already existing thread from 2013.
    https://projectavalon.net/forum4/sho...=1#post1411736

    Thread link.
    https://projectavalon.net/forum4/sho...erican-Indians

    Quote Posted by Mad Scientist (here)
    It might even be possible that the information obtained to ensure the voyages to the Americas were taken from the Phoenicians, maps they might have used or even maps which survived the Great Library take out.

    Obviously the endless discussion about the Paraiba inscription (fake or not) and the small artifacts found in van Diemensland (Australia) back up the theory that Phoenicians were all over the place at their time.

    https://www.boloji.com/articles/1438...n-the-americas

    http://www.australiaforeveryone.com....oenicians.html

    The mining the Phoenicians did in for instance Australia (according to) might back up this theory, the Templars would have had access to many of their deliveries and perhaps even solid proof of certain areas. Obviously there's Rosslyn Chapel, the maize and Cacti patterns on the stone works years before Columbus reached the Americas, still puzzling People from all over, it is said that Henry I Sinclair went to the Americas in around 1398. But, like most things the latter is not set in stone although it makes one wonder. Obviously mainstream already dismissed the theory without any proof, like, well... always I guess.
    What some may not know is that Scott Wolter was given Henry Sinclair's journals mentioned in the first video above. His journals (if legitimate) confirm his travels to Canada 1398, he went there firstly with his father long before 1398 when he was a young child then continued when he was an adult. Proof of the journals will be documented in Scott Wolter's latest book.

    Henry Sinclair Earl of Orkney mentions in his journals the route they sailed. Orkney to Iceland, Iceland to Greenland, Greenland to northern Canada.

    Check the videos out guys. They are a fascinating series.
    Last edited by Billy; 7th April 2021 at 10:05.
    When you express from a fearful heart in the now moment, You create a fearful future.
    When you express from a loving heart in the now moment, You create a loving future.

    Have no fear, Be aware and live your lives journey from a compassionate caring nurturing heart to manifest a compassionate caring nurturing future. Billyji


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  37. Link to Post #19
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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    Dieppe has "an All South America map, extraordinarily precise, which includes the Strait of Magellan. It was brought by the missionary P.Gnupa aboard the Viking vessel which returned him to France in the year 1250 after his stint in NE Brazil." (Prof. de Mahieu).
    Last edited by Mecklenburger; 7th April 2021 at 14:59.

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  39. Link to Post #20
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    Default Re: THE TEMPLARS IN SOUTH AMERICA from the 12th century

    4. The Logistics (Final Part)

    In the 13th century silver was more highly prized than gold and so regular sea voyages between France and Brazil bringing back any quantity of silver would have been worth the effort. The immense distances overland (between the mines and Santos 2700 kms) and the countless problems involved in the 13th century in transporting even such a quantity as 100 kilos over that distance are today difficult to imagine.

    The Overland Routes
    During the couple of centuries prior to c.1200 the Vikings had prepared two routes inland from the disembarcation "port" at Santos in Brazil towards Potosi and their own capital at Tiawanaku.

    The route ran from Santos to Ourinhos and then split. Because horses would have been indispensable for the transport of the silver cargo the more northerly Ivinheim route is the most probable.

    The long established village of Ivinheim (Old High German, iwa; Norse, heimr; "place where the red-wood tree used in archery grows") whose founding inhabitants spoke German or Scandinavian languages, stands even today on the river Ivinheim on the west bank of the River Parana. It commanded an area of vast pasturelands at 800 metres altitude used by the Vikings to raise cattle and horses.

    After this useful stopping point for the Templars in either direction of travel, the route continued to Weibingo, another Norse corruption, at 23 degrees 35" South on the River Paraguay where there was a rest house, and continued from there west to Potosi and Tiawanaku. The overall distance involved was 2700 kilometres.

    END

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