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Thread: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

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    Ireland Avalon Member Adi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    This is a serious thread. For years I've pondered why (e.g.) someone with a PhD and a measured IQ of 180 might be just really dumb and unaware outside of their specialist field. We see this ALL the time.

    It's not about EQ (Emotional Intelligence) or SQ (Spiritual Intelligence). I think it's about the predominant vulnerability of almost all humans, whatever their IQ, EQ, SQ, age, culture, or level of education, to be victims of belief.

    And there may be two components to that:
    1. The susceptibility to being initially influenced to form a belief.
    2. The resistance to letting go of it once it's entrenched.
    A high intellect can paradoxically be a handicap, as extremely clever people are often very skilled at self-justifying whatever beliefs they have. A smart and articulate person will defend their beliefs strongly, self-reinforcing all the time.

    I'd be most interested in other members' views (and experiences!) about this.
    This is a very interesting proposition, and, I think, I understand what you are getting at! I've ruminated and considered these ideas before; why some people who possess clear, quality intellect, and may very well be Masters at what they do, yet ask them to consider the potential for intelligent life in our own Universe (producing consistent accounts, testimony, video, etc etc, to support the proposition) but yet those individuals quite simply cannot summon the capacity to appreciate that which you advance to them, to support that very possibility of intelligent life existing. Some simply cannot let down the walls around them, to consider something which has really and truly enough evidence to meet the burden of proof, in a civil court case, for example! Yet such individuals may be able to write encyclopaedic texts on law, biology, medicine etc, but are unable consider an alternative perception; it is as though they have built up vast intellectual firepower within their mind, but only then for one to go and introduce something so different, so alternative, they cannot process it, because they are simply locked into a version of reality which will not allow them to step outside that intellectual firing machine and consider that there may be a whole lot more going on than one is lead to believe, in the circumstances where there is very good reasons to believe it. I personally know people like this, people who have excelled fantastically academically - some who have even written textbooks - but who cannot (this is separate from those who are intentionally ignorant) grasp the nuance and/or intricacies which are involved, in the UFO phenomena for example, or 'spiritual awarenesses', they just cannot go there; cannot be lead there! SYSTEM INCOMPATIBLE!

    I think you're quite right, Bill, such people most definitely are emersed or blanketed in a fixed and/or rigid system of belief and awareness, but in fact they really are the victim of significant deficit with regard to matters outside that emersion or blanketing of intellectual pursuits – does it come back to that thing called, balance! I don't know, but I'd certainly hazard a guess. I don't doubt ego is very important in the consideration, but I feel it's not entirely about the ego, there's something more dense going on too.

    The more I view life, the more I go through it and experience certain people, the more I am realising that the 'all rounder' (if you will), that person who can distill the noise, pay attention to the nuanced; think outside the box; separate ego from pure self; feel the essence of others and truly appreciate others experiences, but not be drowned by them; and navigate this world with boundless open mindedness, delving into all that which very well may be possible – really is a rare thing, and what may be of a reasonable concern is that, there is not an insignificant number of people on this planet at this time, there is, as we all know, probably too many, yet, there is not enough who are the sort that I've just discribed, but I believe many have discovered the trail to places like Avalon.
    Last edited by Adi; 26th April 2021 at 15:30. Reason: Fixed typo

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    Australia Avalon Member Constance's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Thanks for starting this thread Bill It is such a big subject to unpack because what defines intelligence and why someone can lack these intelligences is something very multifaceted and complex in its nature.

    On my path, I've had the opportunity to connect with people from all walks of life and in my direct experience, some of the most ignorant and arrogant people I've met have been the scientists, medical professionals, alternative health practitioners and academics.

    Everyone has their blind spots but many of these professionals are so full of what they already know that there is no room left for anything new. Everything becomes narrowed down into one small focus. As a consequence, they are not open to being corrected or truly open to another perspective.

    From a wholistic perspective, an internal belief system is most certainly a part of why people become so narrow in their focus but I would also take into consideration:
    1. A lack of connection with nature. Connecting with nature on a regular basis instils an appreciation for the diversity of our universe.

    2. A lack of diversity. If a person has spent the majority of their life in a laboratory, working and socialising with peers who have the same narrow focus in life, taking the same paid holidays with the same groups of people they went to university with or work with, eating the same foods, they may not have the worldly experience or have had the opportunity to connect with others outside of their own reality.

    3. The lack of ability to think wholistically - this may stem from being indoctrinated at school, or having the creativity stamped out of their souls through a person not having the opportunity to do what they love to do. An over-reliance on book knowledge.

    4. The ability to self-correct. If someone doesn't have the ability to self-correct, the default will always be to return to what someone knows rather than being open to other perspectives or to embrace the new and unexamined.

    5. The ability to alter one's perspective. If the conditioning and programming they have experienced has been the dominant force in their lives, they may not have the neurological pathways yet to alter one's perspective on life.

    6. The 81 intelligences - based upon Howard Gardners nine multiple intelligences - expanded upon holigraphically. Kim Peake was the most extreme example of having incredibly high logic/mathematical intelligence but virtually none of the other intelligences which rendered him almost completely disabled and unable to take care of himself.

    7. Pride and ego: If someone has worked in a field for the last thirty to forty years, the thought that whatever theory or philosophy they had been promoting might be completely wrong might be too stressful to handle.
      All the pride and ego of people trying to make a place for themselves in the world and attaining and maintaining that position at all costs.

    8. Working in a field that suits a persons level of neurological integration. Think of how many high functioning aspies work in Silicon Valley in the field of I.T.

    9. Rushing. People being too busy in their own field of work to even consider other perspectives.

    10. People working long hours leaving them exhausted and unable to do anything else. People being burned out through their work and not inspired to study outside or around their own field. For example, the pressure of study to become a doctor and then the entire process of working in a hospital working crazy hours; a decade of being sleep deprived and the exhaustion from working long hours; so few would have the inspiration or the motivation to continue studying outside of what they already know.

    11. Poor diets: You are what you eat but even more so than that, you are what you think whilst you eat. Your ability to determine your reality has everything to do with the ritual of eating. Many people in these specialised fields work long hours and as a consequence drink a lot of caffeine, and eat in-house cafeteria type foods at their desks. What you eat determines your ability to focus.

    12. Chemical poisonings: Can create obsessions.

    Last edited by Constance; 26th April 2021 at 04:07. Reason: grammar

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Nope, it's a demonstrably accurate way of testing for intelligence. It's so blatantly and statistically obvious that it cannot be disputed.
    Well, I assume that was tongue-in-cheek. An IQ test tests how good you are at doing an IQ test. Nothing more. That's the point of this thread!

    See also this thread, in which the whole elusive notion of "intelligence" was discussed here a couple of years ago. That also touches on how very unintelligent some people with high IQs are.

    Being able to do math puzzles against the clock has absolutely nothing to do with true intelligence, awareness and being a fully-functioning, high-ability human being. Anyone who can't see that may not be very bright.



    No I'm deadly serious! An IQ test is a clear indicator of how well you'll perform in the world. It's self evident.

    I'm not sure what you mean about "true" intelligence!. Intelligence is intelligence and shouldn't require any qualifiers. It's quantifiable, that's what IQ tests are for. But if you mean emotional intelligence, spiritual intelligence, body intelligence etc etc etc, I would say: you can't demonstrate that those things even exist. They're not falsifiable. It's like inventing new genders. While it's true that some people are more spiritually oriented, or emotionally grounded, it won't matter much if they can't read or do basic arithmetic. That is, if you want to be successful in the world. If you're perfectly happy roaming forests and staring at the sky all day, and have a group of friendly people problem solving for you , then IQ is unimportant. But life is a series of problems and situations that must be navigated, and if you can't do that reasonably well you're in real trouble, regardless of what your “true” intelligence (whatever that is!) suggests.

    Among all the various forms of “intelligence” being proposed here, I would say that basic intelligence (IQ) is common among all of them. I don't have the graph in front of me, but I would say that basic intelligence correlates more with all the manufactured subcategories than it doesn't. Dividing all these things up is more of an invitation to chaos than anything else. If you're unintelligent in terms of IQ, reading music will be very difficult. You'll also suffer emotionally because you'll be an outcast. Even if you're athletic, your decisions on the field or the court will be poor. You'll have trouble gaining employment. As a result of that, you'll have great difficulty meeting a spouse, or starting a family. And so forth. If your basic intelligence is poor, all the other various forms of “intelligence” will suffer as well. It's a trickle down thing.

    Yes, it's true that there are very smart people (IQ) that are emotional disasters. Or smart people that aren't very spiritual. But they represent the extremes. And yes, there are savants too, but they also represent the extremes. Most people that are reasonably smart are also reasonably stable.

    An IQ test is a very good indicator if how well you'll perform in the world. And that's how I'm defining it here. Maybe we're talking about different things. But it's the most determining factor of one's life, success, and happiness. You can try and dispute that if you wish but I think it's a losing game.

    IQ has been studied and refined since the early 20th century. It's a well established branch of psychology. Psychologists have defined intelligence in a more stringent and accurate way than almost any other psychological construct. We have very specific and accurate ways of measuring the cognitive skills that make one successful in the world (IQ) so if you dilute that with notions of emotional or spiritual “intelligence” etc, all it does it muddy the waters and distort a well defined and researched body of knowledge. It's not useful. IQ has a predictive validity than none of those other alleged intelligences have. I'm going off the science here, no guesswork involved.
    I'm completely aware of where you are coming from and why you are saying what you are saying Mikey but here's a question for you and anyone else interested in learning difficulties. If we bear in mind that people who suffer from dyslexia can have trouble with comprehension, writing and reading material, how well do you think the following people who have suffered from a learning difficulty like dyslexia would perform under the pressure of a clock for a testing of their IQ and how would psychologists have evaluated these people as a result of an incomplete IQ test?

    John Lennon, Winston Churchill, Albert Einstein, Walt Disney, Steve Jobs, Michelangelo, Picasso, Mohammed Ali, Richard Branson, Ted Turner, Erin Brockovich, George Patton, Woodrow Wilson, George Washington, Billy Bob Thornton, Jay Leno, Jim Carrey, Keanu Reeves, Ansel Adams, Steven Spielburg, Agatha Christie, Gustave Flaubert, F. Scott Fitzgerald, William Butler Yeats, Auguste Rodin (I just saw a version of "the thinker" at the National Gallery of Victoria - it was bloody brilliant), Harry Belafonte

    and lastly, myself...(I don't put myself in the same category as the people above by the way - I just happen to be dyslexic)


    I'd also add the Weinstein brothers - Bret and Eric - to that list of brilliant people with learning disabilities. Good list by the way.

    Of course you're correct in making your point here. IQ is not a perfect way of determining intelligence, and therefore success in the world. There are other variables involved. But despite its flaws it's still the best way by far. For example, almost nobody in a respectable university has an IQ below 120. I don't think that's a coincidence!

    Regardless of who you are you're going to require food, shelter, friends, family, spouse, job, and some mode of artistic expression perhaps. I understand that this is an incomplete list - and doesn't define everybody! - but these are the things that are most important to most people. And IQ is the most accurate way of determining whether or not you'll acquire them, by a mile. That's just a fact (I'm refraining from posting my library of links because I'm already off topic lol)

    It doesn't mean that people with learning disabilities can't succeed! They may just have to work a little harder. I would know, I am one of those people!
    Last edited by Mike; 26th April 2021 at 02:08.

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    Australia Avalon Member Constance's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    I'd also add the Weinstein brothers - Bret and Eric - to that list of brilliant people with learning disabilities. Good list by the way.

    Of course you're correct in making your point here. IQ is not a perfect way of determining intelligence, and therefore success in the world. There are other variables involved. But despite its flaws it's still the best way by far. For example, almost nobody in a respectable university has an IQ below 120. I don't think that's a coincidence!

    Regardless of who you are you're going to require food, shelter, friends, family, spouse, job, and some mode of artistic expression perhaps. I understand that this is an incomplete list - and doesn't define everybody! - but these are the things that are most important to most people. And IQ is the most accurate way of determining whether or not you'll acquire them, by a mile. That's just a fact (I'm refraining from posting my library of links because I'm already off topic lol)

    It doesn't mean that people with learning disabilities can't succeed! They may just have to work a little harder. I would know, I am one of those people!
    You really made me laugh out loud at your "library of links" comment

    I don't think you are off topic here at all.

    Bret and Eric hey? wow...thanks for sharing that. I didn't know that!

    I just finished listening to this talk with Eric...It is an excerpt from a longer interview but it's a good 'un.


    Eric Weinstein on The Biggest Issues with Modern School Systems

    As you might already be aware, I am a big fan of people being self-taught wherever possible. Knowing what the current education system is predicated upon (yes! The New World order/Communism!) and knowing how our current education system can destroy/undermine creativity, the entire education system needs a complete overhaul. We need an education system that loves and serves all.

    Whenever people start to talk about the words "success" or "succeeding" in this world, I start to think about tribal communities. Do you think they even have an equivalent for those words in their vocabulary?

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    Finland Avalon Member Wind's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    If the smartest man in the world would also be a sociopath then what would be the value of that man when he views other living beings as mere objects? Many people in leading positions are like that. Cold, calculating, cruel and highly intelligent. Other people are justs assets, cattle or objects to them. Might is not right.

    The downfall of such highly intelligent people is also their arrogance, because even they too can be blind to their own biases and inhumane, pure egoic conditioning. Without real empathy and compassion you are truly unable to see and feel things from every possible angle and ultimately that will be a path towards self-aggrandizement and destruction. The simplest man in the world could be the most kind person out there.

    "Compassion is the highest moral value, the noblest human feeling, the purest creature-love. It is the extreme social expression of the divine soul of man. Because he is able to share his feelings, where both are in reality connected in harmony by the presence of this soul in each one. One consequence of this habit of compassion is that an immense understanding of human nature fills his entire being."

    ~ Paul Brunton
    Last edited by Wind; 26th April 2021 at 04:02.
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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    I'd also add the Weinstein brothers - Bret and Eric - to that list of brilliant people with learning disabilities. Good list by the way.

    Of course you're correct in making your point here. IQ is not a perfect way of determining intelligence, and therefore success in the world. There are other variables involved. But despite its flaws it's still the best way by far. For example, almost nobody in a respectable university has an IQ below 120. I don't think that's a coincidence!

    Regardless of who you are you're going to require food, shelter, friends, family, spouse, job, and some mode of artistic expression perhaps. I understand that this is an incomplete list - and doesn't define everybody! - but these are the things that are most important to most people. And IQ is the most accurate way of determining whether or not you'll acquire them, by a mile. That's just a fact (I'm refraining from posting my library of links because I'm already off topic lol)

    It doesn't mean that people with learning disabilities can't succeed! They may just have to work a little harder. I would know, I am one of those people!
    You really made me laugh out loud at your "library of links" comment

    I don't think you are off topic here at all.

    Bret and Eric hey? wow...thanks for sharing that. I didn't know that!

    I just finished listening to this talk with Eric...It is an excerpt from a longer interview but it's a good 'un.


    Eric Weinstein on The Biggest Issues with Modern School Systems

    As you might already be aware, I am a big fan of people being self-taught wherever possible. Knowing what the current education system is predicated upon (yes! The New World order/Communism!) and knowing how our current education system can destroy/undermine creativity, the entire education system needs a complete overhaul. We need an education system that loves and serves all.

    Whenever people start to talk about the words "success" or "succeeding" in this world, I start to think about tribal communities. Do you think they even have an equivalent for those words in their vocabulary?


    I think tribal communities do have word equivalents to success, and successful. Absolutely I do!

    And I think those words mean exactly what I suggested earlier. Success can be defined by, firstly, the basics: food,water, shelter. Before we can consider anything we need to make sure we're able to survive, correct? And secondly by spouse, family, job, spirituality, and artistic goals. Jobs and artistic goals might mean something a little different in tribal communities but they still exist. These are universal values, and exist across all cultures and all times.

    And I like the idea of being self taught - just like you do! - and I recognize the value in that. But I also recognize the value in what a formal education offers, despite it's deficiencies. The education system may be lacking, but kids are still taught the essentials: reading, writing, and basic arithmetic. Not only that but it socializes kids and prepares them for the people they will inevitably encounter in the world.

    @Wind: most intelligent people aren't cold, calculating sociopaths. And thank God for that. It's intelligent people that make the world go 'round. They're responsible for all the luxuries and amenities we all enjoy today.

    And while compassion is right up there as far as values are concerned, I think it's second to truth. Truth is our true north. Everything else follows. Without truth (and I don't mean your truth, or my truth, or whatever. I mean *the* truth, with a capital "T") the world would be an insane, incoherent place..which is what we see happening now. Sometimes the most compassionate thing you can do for someone is to tell them how dumb they're being. Hugs are not always appropriate or productive. Some people need to be slapped back into reality(truth).

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    “Of course you're correct in making your point here. IQ is not a perfect way of determining intelligence, and therefore success in the world. There are other variables involved. But despite its flaws it's still the best way by far. For example, almost nobody in a respectable university has an IQ below 120. I don't think that's a coincidence!


    You’d be wrong on this point Mike. 120 is actually pretty high and not necessary for academic achievement depending on the area of study. I’ve done a couple of IQ tests and never got over 104, yet have 3 degrees from two highly esteemed Universities - the most recent is a Masters where I was up against high performing medical specialists and achieved a HD a average (>85%). Tenacity and a passion for my area of study was what got me over the line, not necessarily IQ, which simply would have enabled me to do it faster.

    Bill, your list of what is means to be successful was a beautiful read and I completely agree. My focus has definitely shifted to try to be better at many of those listed attributes. Being a dad was a major turning point.

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    As far as being successful in this world I believe intelligence has almost nothing to do with it at all. It is almost entirely who you know and who you b***. The people who are successful know how to make themselves valuable to their employers, sacrificing anything else to that end. They do not have to work hard or know too much, they just have to know how to get the accolades, deserving or not.

    A degree is a passport to success. Pay for the degree and success is almost assured, the grade hardly matters. But again those that excel will be those that take the time to impress the boss and use their fellow workers for their own gain.

    Of course success is very much tied to obedience - the ability to follow the rules regardless of one's personal opinion. If you don't follow the rules you cannot be successful, except as a criminal perhaps - and maybe that is why there are so many of them overflowing our prisons.

    For the most part, IQ is highly overrated...
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Free Thinker (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Free Thinker (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

    "and how IQ tests can't detect much outside of pattern recognition."

    I don't think I know anyone that would state that an IQ is the be-all and end-all of determining a persons worth or even intelligence. Perhaps you put too much faith in that belief that it is considered the de facto standard, or "system" as you put it.
    On the contrary, it is my lack of faith or belief in people who are using and falling back on that very same exact limited crutch to not put their own vile spin on it...
    I don't see that ... I've hung around with some incredibly intelligent people in my life with very high IQ's (by the test), not one would spin it with vile ... Unless that was a covert jab at something specific in your life ... or perhaps something recently?
    All I'm trying to say is, I don't trust the psychopathic idiots running our society, and that goes for their deranged "IQ tests" as well (correct me if I'm wrong here on the latter).

    ...
    I hear what you are saying, I just highly doubt that they psychopaths running our society have any ownership of the IQ test, nor use it as weapon.

    "We are losing control over the masses sir!"
    "Unleash, The IQ test!!"


    Like I said, most people with a reasonably high IQ would be the first to admit that its an extremely limited type of testing that doesn't represent a person's value in life, intellectually or otherwise. There might be a few, and those would be the types, that score well, but have limited intellectual and other valuable abilities.
    I appreciate the listen. It's entirely possible the so-called "IQ test" has little to do with the vile creeps hiding in the shadows sitting on their own self-proclaimed pedestals of self-importance, ones that would quickly dissolve if their secrets were to be exposed to the light of day and overall public awareness... Ahem...

    I recall one time at home, looking at the bookshelf where my family had a bunch of books stored there, and one of them was this "test your IQ on your own" type deal. So like a curious cat who didn't know any better at the time, I picked it up and flipped through it, to see if maybe I could test or evaluate my IQ in my own way and on my own terms, without some bothersome/annoying "middle man or middle woman" dictating the results for me.

    Needless to say, I didn't get very far, because as soon as I read the "you have 20 minutes to take this test", I pretty much lost my patience and whatever respect and curiosity I may have had at that moment in time, and angrily chucked the book against the wall, as though that would solve all my problems. I am pretty sure that I was at least outright disgusted by that "revelation" and could not stomach nor give "the book" any more credibility from my end.

    I may have had the idea to turn the offensive book into some sort of art journal, by painting over the pages and adding various pictures and whatnot to it, in order to recycle what I strongly felt (and still do!) was absolute garbage. I think I have it somewhere in my living space still, but it hasn't been top priority for me to play around with paints, markers, and whatnot in my artful revolution of defiance there. Mainly because, I have always had issues with being distracted and trying to do 100,000,000,000,000,000+ things at once, so I do it to myself getting overwhelmed like that. I don't recall, I've slept since then.

    One final note is this: even if there was an IQ profile done on me somewhere, I would have no interest whatsoever in knowing "the results", as flawed and completely inaccurate that I very much feel they would be, which is a "belief" or "viewpoint" that I continue to superbly resonate with on a very deep level, both mind and soul, and etc. As my mother would say "Consider the source." (No, not THAT Source!, the source of where the info is coming from). Pretty much says it all, and then some.

    Note: I applaud those who recognized my differentiation between lower-case 's'-source, and upper-case 'S'-Source. Not the same thing at all. So, if you are one of those people (anyone reading this that is) that caught that, I give you 2 thumbs up. Heck, I'd say I'd give you infinite thumbs up, but since I only have 2 thumbs in a physical sense, I will have to settle for just the 2 thumbs up appreciation overall, lol.
    "The truth will set us free, whatever that may be."
    "Question everything. Make a path where there was not one before."
    "We are part of the Universe. It's story, is our story."

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Napping (here)

    Tenacity and a passion for my area of study was what got me over the line, not necessarily IQ, which simply would have enabled me to do it faster.

    Bill, your list of what is means to be successful was a beautiful read and I completely agree. My focus has definitely shifted to try to be better at many of those listed attributes. Being a dad was a major turning point.
    I definitely agree with the interest and desire to learn part. If one has no desire to learn, their progress in doing such will be significantly diminished, IF they are able to learn anything at all. A VERY good point to make, and one I wholeheartedly agree with. Lack of interest and motivation can be an insurmountable wall or sea to cross, simply b/c they made it so in their minds and versions of reality.

    I also greatly enjoyed Bill's list of poignantly (intellectually and spiritually moving) beautiful, and thought-provoking questions.

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    As far as being successful in this world I believe intelligence has almost nothing to do with it at all. It is almost entirely who you know and who you b***. The people who are successful know how to make themselves valuable to their employers, sacrificing anything else to that end. They do not have to work hard or know too much, they just have to know how to get the accolades, deserving or not.

    A degree is a passport to success. Pay for the degree and success is almost assured, the grade hardly matters. But again those that excel will be those that take the time to impress the boss and use their fellow workers for their own gain.

    Of course success is very much tied to obedience - the ability to follow the rules regardless of one's personal opinion. If you don't follow the rules you cannot be successful, except as a criminal perhaps - and maybe that is why there are so many of them overflowing our prisons.

    For the most part, IQ is highly overrated...
    Indeed.
    "The truth will set us free, whatever that may be."
    "Question everything. Make a path where there was not one before."
    "We are part of the Universe. It's story, is our story."

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)



    I think tribal communities do have word equivalents to success, and successful. Absolutely I do!

    And I think those words mean exactly what I suggested earlier. Success can be defined by, firstly, the basics: food,water, shelter. Before we can consider anything we need to make sure we're able to survive, correct? And secondly by spouse, family, job, spirituality, and artistic goals. Jobs and artistic goals might mean something a little different in tribal communities but they still exist. These are universal values, and exist across all cultures and all times.

    And I like the idea of being self taught - just like you do! - and I recognize the value in that. But I also recognize the value in what a formal education offers, despite it's deficiencies. The education system may be lacking, but kids are still taught the essentials: reading, writing, and basic arithmetic. Not only that but it socializes kids and prepares them for the people they will inevitably encounter in the world.

    @Wind: most intelligent people aren't cold, calculating sociopaths. And thank God for that. It's intelligent people that make the world go 'round. They're responsible for all the luxuries and amenities we all enjoy today.

    And while compassion is right up there as far as values are concerned, I think it's second to truth. Truth is our true north. Everything else follows. Without truth (and I don't mean your truth, or my truth, or whatever. I mean *the* truth, with a capital "T") the world would be an insane, incoherent place..which is what we see happening now. Sometimes the most compassionate thing you can do for someone is to tell them how dumb they're being. Hugs are not always appropriate or productive. Some people need to be slapped back into reality(truth).
    Aha! I see what you are saying there Yes. You could call that success. and what you just described to me as the definition of success, I would describe as the common passion; what we truly require to come together to live in harmony.

    I have a different take on education to yourself. In essence, all learning is self-learning. Kids don't learn the way we think they should learn and I had a very humbling experience that showed me this. My son had already mastered what you called 'the essentials' by the time he was three but this was not via any school, this was all through improvisation and play. I remember a time when I proudly bought home some flashcards to teach my one-year-old to read. However, he resisted all my efforts because he wasn't learning the way he wanted to learn. And thank god for that. lol.

    There was a really interesting experiment carried out by a guy in India named Sugata Mitra. In the slums of New Delhi, he placed a computer in a hole in the wall. The children barely went to school, they didn't speak any english, had never seen a computer before and they didn't know what the internet was. He connected high speed internet to it, three feet off the ground, turned it on and left it there. He repeated this all over India and through a large part of the world. On one of the computers, he relates how the kids had already taught themselves how to play music on it after only four hours! What Mitra noticed was that children will learn to do what they want to learn to do. When we do the things that we love to do, we naturally and spontaneously fire up all the neurological pathways that we require to take us to the next level of growth within our experience.

    Have you ever had the experience of teaching yourself something that you loved to do? How effortless was it to learn?

    You might not consciously remember this but when you were a kid, no one taught you how to speak, or walk, or climb, or sing, or feed, or dress yourself. You taught yourself. Kids are super-motivated and inspired to teach themselves to do all these things because that is our natural state. Really young kids learn through watching, observing, interacting, being in nature, and through fun and play with their parents, siblings, grandparents etc. Kids are masters of improvisation and imagination. Give a kid a box and he will turn it into a house, a toboggan, a castle, a car, a boat, a plane, a mail box, a washing machine, and a toy car ramp.

    We all know what happens if a child is locked in a room for years and deprived of the stimulation and activation that is required for their growth. Children end up being mute and unable to talk and walk or dress themselves and have great difficulties with integrating into the real world. Similarly, if we don't get to do what we love to do when we are young, all those natural pathways that have not been fired up, activated and stimulated will mean that we will spend all our time as adults, compensating for it all by doing all the things we know we shouldn't be doing.

    As adults, we have lost the ability to play and have fun. But this has been through no fault of our own. This is all due to being institutionalized in a school system where people have had all the creativity around learning crushed out of them. This is why I constantly bang on about putting back what is missing in our lives.

    Classrooms are the death of kids inspirations and creativity because schools cater for a classroom and not the individual. Everything is done to a schedule and within time and space. It takes us away from our natural state which is a state beyond time and space.
    The Education system is not designed to nurture and nourish us at the deepest levels of our beings. Have you ever seen how enthusiastic little kids are with their questions? If you ask little kids what is it that they would like to do, you can't shut them up. However, all that creativity and curiosity is knocked out of most kids by the time they are teenagers because the school system is deliberately designed to do this.


    Speaking of socialization, if you are referring to the kind of socialization that I constantly hear people referring to, it's not ideal.

    Kids need to be out in the real world with other people who are not their own age and spending the majority of their time with their parents. Who decided that our kids should be spending all their time around other immature peers instead of being with adults who would prepare them for how to live as adults?

    At what other point in time do we ever associate with people who are exactly the same age as us? If you went back in time and spoke to a tribe about their kids needing to go to school so that they could have a place in this world and learn how to socialize, they would look at you like you were nuts.

    There is a great presentation by Gabor Mate called "Hold onto your kids". Gabor describes how immature kids grow into immature adults because the only instruction that the kids are receiving are from the teachers and their peers and not their parents. If kids spend the majority of the time with other kids, they are going to be looking only to each other and not to their parents for advice and support.

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)



    I think tribal communities do have word equivalents to success, and successful. Absolutely I do!

    And I think those words mean exactly what I suggested earlier. Success can be defined by, firstly, the basics: food,water, shelter. Before we can consider anything we need to make sure we're able to survive, correct? And secondly by spouse, family, job, spirituality, and artistic goals. Jobs and artistic goals might mean something a little different in tribal communities but they still exist. These are universal values, and exist across all cultures and all times.

    And I like the idea of being self taught - just like you do! - and I recognize the value in that. But I also recognize the value in what a formal education offers, despite it's deficiencies. The education system may be lacking, but kids are still taught the essentials: reading, writing, and basic arithmetic. Not only that but it socializes kids and prepares them for the people they will inevitably encounter in the world.

    @Wind: most intelligent people aren't cold, calculating sociopaths. And thank God for that. It's intelligent people that make the world go 'round. They're responsible for all the luxuries and amenities we all enjoy today.

    And while compassion is right up there as far as values are concerned, I think it's second to truth. Truth is our true north. Everything else follows. Without truth (and I don't mean your truth, or my truth, or whatever. I mean *the* truth, with a capital "T") the world would be an insane, incoherent place..which is what we see happening now. Sometimes the most compassionate thing you can do for someone is to tell them how dumb they're being. Hugs are not always appropriate or productive. Some people need to be slapped back into reality(truth).
    Aha! I see what you are saying there Yes. You could call that success. and what you just described to me as the definition of success, I would describe as the common passion; what we truly require to come together to live in harmony.

    I have a different take on education to yourself. In essence, all learning is self-learning. Kids don't learn the way we think they should learn and I had a very humbling experience that showed me this. My son had already mastered what you called 'the essentials' by the time he was three but this was not via any school, this was all through improvisation and play. I remember a time when I proudly bought home some flashcards to teach my one-year-old to read. However, he resisted all my efforts because he wasn't learning the way he wanted to learn. And thank god for that. lol.

    There was a really interesting experiment carried out by a guy in India named Sugata Mitra. In the slums of New Delhi, he placed a computer in a hole in the wall. The children barely went to school, they didn't speak any english, had never seen a computer before and they didn't know what the internet was. He connected high speed internet to it, three feet off the ground, turned it on and left it there. He repeated this all over India and through a large part of the world. On one of the computers, he relates how the kids had already taught themselves how to play music on it after only four hours! What Mitra noticed was that children will learn to do what they want to learn to do. When we do the things that we love to do, we naturally and spontaneously fire up all the neurological pathways that we require to take us to the next level of growth within our experience.

    Have you ever had the experience of teaching yourself something that you loved to do? How effortless was it to learn?

    You might not consciously remember this but when you were a kid, no one taught you how to speak, or walk, or climb, or sing, or feed, or dress yourself. You taught yourself. Kids are super-motivated and inspired to teach themselves to do all these things because that is our natural state. Really young kids learn through watching, observing, interacting, being in nature, and through fun and play with their parents, siblings, grandparents etc. Kids are masters of improvisation and imagination. Give a kid a box and he will turn it into a house, a toboggan, a castle, a car, a boat, a plane, a mail box, a washing machine, and a toy car ramp.

    We all know what happens if a child is locked in a room for years and deprived of the stimulation and activation that is required for their growth. Children end up being mute and unable to talk and walk or dress themselves and have great difficulties with integrating into the real world. Similarly, if we don't get to do what we love to do when we are young, all those natural pathways that have not been fired up, activated and stimulated will mean that we will spend all our time as adults, compensating for it all by doing all the things we know we shouldn't be doing.

    As adults, we have lost the ability to play and have fun. But this has been through no fault of our own. This is all due to being institutionalized in a school system where people have had all the creativity around learning crushed out of them. This is why I constantly bang on about putting back what is missing in our lives.

    Classrooms are the death of kids inspirations and creativity because schools cater for a classroom and not the individual. Everything is done to a schedule and within time and space. It takes us away from our natural state which is a state beyond time and space.
    The Education system is not designed to nurture and nourish us at the deepest levels of our beings. Have you ever seen how enthusiastic little kids are with their questions? If you ask little kids what is it that they would like to do, you can't shut them up. However, all that creativity and curiosity is knocked out of most kids by the time they are teenagers because the school system is deliberately designed to do this.


    Speaking of socialization, if you are referring to the kind of socialization that I constantly hear people referring to, it's not ideal.

    Kids need to be out in the real world with other people who are not their own age and spending the majority of their time with their parents. Who decided that our kids should be spending all their time around other immature peers instead of being with adults who would prepare them for how to live as adults?

    At what other point in time do we ever associate with people who are exactly the same age as us? If you went back in time and spoke to a tribe about their kids needing to go to school so that they could have a place in this world and learn how to socialize, they would look at you like you were nuts.

    There is a great presentation by Gabor Mate called "Hold onto your kids". Gabor describes how immature kids grow into immature adults because the only instruction that the kids are receiving are from the teachers and their peers and not their parents. If kids spend the majority of the time with other kids, they are going to be looking only to each other and not to their parents for advice and support.


    Classrooms have to run on a schedule because if they didn't it would be chaos. Schedules can feel restricting but can be good for kids as well. They calm a frenzied mind. They teach discipline and order and punctuality, things they'll need to learn in order to survive in the world. Discipline gives kids the ability to practice the daily habits they'll need to achieve the things they want or to get the things they want. And kids need some borders and some routines. Not so much that it drums the creativity and spontaneity out of them, but just enough so that it helps them channel and focus their very chaotic energy. There's freedom in that actually. Too much free time and not enough discipline and they will get nothing out of their talents, because they won't have the tools to do anything with them.

    I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you use the word tribes? Maybe you can explain that a little further. I think we all have romantic notions of tribal life of some kind, a simpler life, and so forth. But I don't think it's wise to raise children for a world that you may wish existed, instead of the one that actually exists. They still have to perform reasonably well in all the mundane, sh!tty things that life will inevitably ask of them (a solid IQ will help them tremendously in these areas). So they have to be prepared in the best way possible, hopefully without killing their spark. I won't pretend to know how to do that exactly - I'm not a parent! - but I've been a kid, I've worked with kids as a daycare assistant, and I've been alive long enough to make some reasonable observations...I think lol

    And I think kids need to know how to interact with other kids, simply because most kids will be spending most of their time with other kids LOL. It's unavoidable. Plus, show me the kid who wants to hang out with adults! No, they desperately want to get outside to run around with the other kids on the block. It's not just something they want to do - it's a deep biological impulse. If a kid isn't socialized early he or she will likely become a misfit, antisocial, resentful, bitter, and lonely as an adult. The science is in on that one. It's not disputable. Kids need adult supervision and wisdom and guidance of course, but it's so they can best interact and cooperate and compete civilly with their peers, ultimately. They need the full experience: they need the fighting, the scratching, punching, arguing, screaming, and so forth, just like they need to play in the sand and the dirt - to inoculate themselves against it in some way. They mature thru experience, the good and the bad. Unless the kid winds up in an ashram somewhere, he or she will need to know how to handle these situations when they arrive later in life (and they will!)

    So, I respectfully disagree that kids need to spend most of their time with their parents. I think that ultimately makes them kind of soft and dependent and awkward as teens and young adults. I don't think they should spend most of their time with other kids either, necessarily (but a fair share if it). There's some balance there between order and chaos, play and discipline, schedules and whimsicality, maturity and immaturity, that will never be perfect but that we should always be striving for IMO

    Annnnnnnd that has nothing to do with the thread topic
    Last edited by Mike; 27th April 2021 at 04:26.

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Annnnnnnd that has nothing to do with the thread topic


    I have a whole lot of things that I would love to share in response to everything you've shared but I don't want to turn this into the Constance and Mikey show and completely derail the thread so I guess we will just have to continue this conversation elsewhere

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    I have not had time to go through this thread properly yet but it is an interesting subject thanks Bill.

    Anyway, I came across this interesting video on the techniques for creating mass psychosis and totalitarianism. And I suppose this dichotomy we are seeing now could just be the product of these techniques to a large degree (although there is definitely more to it overall imo). Anyway a good watch nevertheless I think (if it has not already been posted elsewhere).


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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Annnnnnnd that has nothing to do with the thread topic


    I have a whole lot of things that I would love to share in response to everything you've shared but I don't want to turn this into the Constance and Mikey show and completely derail the thread so I guess we will just have to continue this conversation elsewhere
    very good insights....please keep dialoguing where we can see.

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by One (here)
    I have not had time to go through this thread properly yet but it is an interesting subject thanks Bill.

    Anyway, I came across this interesting video on the techniques for creating mass psychosis and totalitarianism. And I suppose this dichotomy we are seeing now could just be the product of these techniques to a large degree (although there is definitely more to it overall imo). Anyway a good watch nevertheless I think (if it has not already been posted elsewhere).

    Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. This is a very good watch. It really deserves a thread of its own.

    It's a very short presentation of 16.31 minutes but very succinct. The title of the video asks a very good question,

    Can sanity return to an insane world?

    Humanity has experienced Mass psychosis throughout the ages with witch hunts, genocides and even dancing mania's but The academy of ideas posits that in the modern era, it is the mass psychosis of totalitarianism that is the greatest threat.

    Totalitarianism is the modern phenomenon of total centralized state power coupled with the obliteration of individual human rights; In the totalized state, there are those in power, and there are the objectified masses, the victims.
    The video goes on to describe how the ruling elite prime the minds of masses so that they can enact their plans for utter submission and the exact formula for how to descend the masses into insanity. As the video progresses, it all sounds so eerily familiar.

    There is a surprising twist at the end which I hadn't expected. There is inspiration around how we might navigate our way through the current world situation.

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by One (here)
    I have not had time to go through this thread properly yet but it is an interesting subject thanks Bill.

    Anyway, I came across this interesting video on the techniques for creating mass psychosis and totalitarianism. And I suppose this dichotomy we are seeing now could just be the product of these techniques to a large degree (although there is definitely more to it overall imo). Anyway a good watch nevertheless I think (if it has not already been posted elsewhere).

    The Manufacturing of a Mass Psychosis
    Can Sanity Return to an Insane World?
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.”

    Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind
    Diseases of the body can spread through a population and reach epidemic proportions, but so too can diseases of the mind. And of these epidemics of the latter variety, the mass psychosis is the most dangerous. During a mass psychosis madness becomes the norm in a society and delusionary beliefs spread like a contagion. But as delusions can take many forms, and as madness can manifest in countless ways, the specific manner in which a mass psychosis unfolds will differ based on the historical and cultural context of the infected society. In the past, mass psychoses have led to witch hunts, genocides and even dancing manias, but in the modern era it is the mass psychosis of totalitarianism that is the greatest threat:
    “Totalitarianism is the modern phenomenon of total centralized state power coupled with the obliteration of individual human rights: in the totalized state, there are those in power, and there are the objectified masses, the victims.”

    Arthur Versluis, The New Inquisitions
    In a totalitarian society the population is divided into two groups, the rulers and the ruled, and both groups undergo a pathological transformation. The rulers are elevated to an almost god-like status which is diametrically opposed to our nature as imperfect beings who are easily corrupted by power. The masses, on the other hand, are transformed into the dependent subjects of these pathological rulers and take on a psychologically regressed and childlike status. Hannah Arendt, one of the 20th century’s preeminent scholars of this form of rule, called totalitarianism an attempted transformation of “human nature itself”. But this attempted transformation only turns sound minds into sick minds for as the Dutch medical doctor who studied the mental effects of living under totalitarianism wrote:
    “… there is in fact much that is comparable between the strange reactions of the citizens of [totalitarianism] and their culture as a whole on the one hand and the reactions of the…sick schizophrenic on the other.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    The social transformation that unfolds under totalitarianism is built upon, and sustained by, delusions. For only deluded men and women regress to the childlike status of obedient and submissive subjects and hand over complete control of their lives to politicians and bureaucrats. Only a deluded ruling class will believe that they possess the knowledge, wisdom, and acumen to completely control society in a top-down manner. And only when under the spell of delusions would anyone believe that a society composed of power-hungry rulers, on the one hand, and a psychological regressed population, on the other, will lead to anything other than mass suffering and social ruin.

    But what triggers the psychosis of totalitarianism? As was explored in the previous video of this series, the mass psychosis of totalitarianism begins in a society’s ruling class. The individuals that make up this class, be it politicians, bureaucrats, or crony capitalists, are very prone to delusions that augment their power, and no delusion is more attractive to the power-hungry, than the delusion that they can, and should, control and dominate a society. When a ruling elite becomes possessed by a political ideology of this sort, be it communism, fascism or technocracy, the next step is to induce a population into accepting their rule by infecting them with the mass psychosis of totalitarianism. This psychosis has been induced many times throughout history, and as Meerloo explains:
    “It is simply a question of reorganizing and manipulating collective feelings in the proper way.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    The general method by which the members of a ruling elite can accomplish this end is called menticide, with the etymology of this word being ‘a killing of the mind’, and as Meerloo further explains:
    “Menticide is an old crime against the human mind and spirit but systematized anew. It is an organized system of psychological intervention and judicial perversion through which a [ruling class] can imprint [their] own opportunistic thoughts upon the minds of those [they] plan to use and destroy.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    Priming a population for the crime of menticide begins with the sowing of fear. For as was explored in the first video of this series, when an individual is flooded with negative emotions, such as fear or anxiety, he or she is very susceptible to a descent into the delusions of madness. Threats real, imagined, or fabricated can be used to sow fear, but a particularly effective technique is to use waves of terror. Under this technique the sowing of fear is staggered with periods of calm, but each of these periods of calm is followed by the manufacturing of an even more intense spell of fear, and on and on the process goes, or as Meerloo writes:
    “Each wave of terrorizing . . . creates its effects more easily – after a breathing spell – than the one that preceded it because people are still disturbed by their previous experience. Morality becomes lower and lower, and the psychological effects of each new propaganda campaign become stronger; it reaches a public already softened up.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    While fear primes a population for menticide, the use of propaganda to spread misinformation and to promote confusion with respect to the source of the threats, and the nature of the crisis, helps to break down the minds of the masses. Government officials, and their lackies in the media, can use contradictory reports, non-sensical information and even blatant lies, as the more they confuse the less capable will a population be to cope with the crisis, and diminish their fear, in a rational and adaptive manner. Confusion, in other words, heightens the susceptibility of a descent into the delusions of totalitarianism, or as Meerloo explains:
    “Logic can be met with logic, while illogic cannot—it confuses those who think straight. The Big Lie and monotonously repeated nonsense have more emotional appeal … than logic and reason. While the [people are] still searching for a reasonable counter-argument to the first lie, the totalitarians can assault [them] with another.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    Never before in history have such effective means existed to manipulate a society into the psychosis of totalitarianism. Smart phones and social media, television and the internet, all in conjunction with algorithms that quickly censor the flow of unwanted information, allow those in power to easily assault the minds of the masses. What is more the addictive nature of these technologies means that many people voluntarily subject themselves to the ruling elite’s propaganda with a remarkable frequency:
    “Modern technology teaches man to take for granted the world he is looking at; he takes no time to retreat and reflect. Technology lures him on, dropping him into its wheels and movements. No rest, no meditation, no reflection, no conversation – the senses are continually overloaded with stimuli. [Man] doesn’t learn to question his world anymore; the screen offers him answers-ready-made.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    But there is a further step the would-be totalitarian rulers can take to increase the chance of a totalitarian psychosis, and this is to isolate the victims and to disrupt normal social interactions. When alone and lacking normal interactions with friends, family and coworkers, an individual becomes far more susceptible to delusions for several reasons: Firstly, they lose contact with the corrective force of the positive example. For not everyone is tricked by the machinations of the ruling elite and the individuals who see through the propaganda, can help free others from the menticidal assault. If, however, isolation is enforced the power of these positive examples greatly diminishes. But another reason that isolation increases the efficacy of menticide is because like many other species, human beings, are more easily conditioned into new patterns of thought and behaviour when isolated, or as Meerloo explains with regards to the physiologist Ivan Pavlov’s work on behavioural conditioning:
    “Pavlov made another significant discovery: the conditioned reflex could be developed most easily in a quiet laboratory with a minimum of disturbing stimuli. Every trainer of animals knows this from his own experience; isolation and the patient repetition of stimuli are required to tame wild animals. . . .The totalitarians have followed this rule. They know that they can condition their political victims most quickly if they are kept in isolation.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    Alone, confused and battered by waves of terror, a population under an attack of menticide descends into a hopeless and vulnerable state. The never-ending stream of propaganda turns minds once capable of rational thought into playhouses of irrational forces and with chaos swirling around them, and within them, the masses crave a return to a more ordered world. The would-be totalitarians can now take the decisive step, they can offer a way out and a return to order in a world that seems to be moving rapidly in the opposite direction. But all this come at a price: The masses must give up their freedom and cede control of all aspects of life to the ruling elite. They must relinquish their capacity to be self-reliant individuals who are responsible for their own lives, and become submissive and obedient subjects. The masses, in other words, must descend into the delusions of the totalitarian psychosis.
    “Totalitarianism is man’s escape from the fearful realities of life into the virtual womb of the leaders. The individual’s actions are directed from this womb – from the inner sanctum. . .man need no longer assume responsibility for his own life. The order and logic of the prenatal world reign. There is peace and silence, the peace of utter submission.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    But the order of a totalitarian world is a pathological order. By enforcing a strict conformity, and requiring a blind obedience from the citizenry, totalitarianism rids the world of the spontaneity that produces many of life’s joys and the creativity that drives society forward. The total control of this form of rule, no matter under what name it is branded, be it rule by scientists and doctors, politicians and bureaucrats, or a dictator, breeds stagnation, destruction and death on a mass scale. And so perhaps the most important question facing the world is how can totalitarianism be prevented? And if a society has been induced into the early stages of this mass psychosis, can the effects be reversed?

    While one can never be sure of the prognosis of a collective madness, there are steps that can be taken to help effectuate a cure. This task, however, necessitates many different approaches, from many different people. For just as the menticidal attack is multi-pronged, so too must be the counter-attack. According to Carl Jung, for those of us who wish to help return sanity to an insane world, the first step is to bring order to our own minds, and to live in a way that provides inspiration for others to follow:
    “It is not for nothing that our age cries out for the redeemer personality, for the one who can emancipate himself from the grip of the collective [psychosis] and save at least his own soul, who lights a beacon of hope for others, proclaiming that here is at least one man who has succeeded in extricating himself from the fatal identity with the group psyche.”

    Carl Jung, Civilization in Transition
    But assuming one is living in a manner free of the grip of the psychosis there are further steps that can be taken: firstly, information that counters the propaganda should be spread as far, and as wide, as possible. For the truth is more powerful than the fiction and falsities peddled by the would-be totalitarian rulers and so their success is in part contingent on their ability to censor the free flow of information. Another tactic is to use humour and ridicule to delegitimize the ruling elite or as Meerloo explains:
    “We must learn to treat the demagogue and aspirant dictators in our midst. . .with the weapon of ridicule. The demagogue himself is almost incapable of humor of any sort, and if we treat him with humor, he will begin to collapse.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    A tactic recommended by Vaclav Havel, a political dissident under Soviet communist rule who later became president of Czechoslovakia, is the construction of what are called “parallel structures”. A parallel structure is any form of organization, business, institution, technology, or creative pursuit that exists physically within a totalitarian society, yet morally outside of it. In communist Czechoslovakia, Havel noted that these parallel structures were more effective at combating totalitarianism than political action. Furthermore, when enough parallel structures are created, a “second culture” or “parallel society” spontaneously forms and functions as an enclave of freedom and sanity within a totalitarian world. Or as Havel explains in his book The Power of the Powerless:
    “….what else are parallel structures than an area where a different life can be lived, a life that is in harmony with its own aims and which in turn structures itself in harmony with those aims? . . .What else are those initial attempts at social self-organization than the efforts of a certain part of society…to rid itself of the self-sustaining aspects of totalitarianism and, thus, to extricate itself radically from its involvement in the…totalitarian system?”

    Vaclav Havel, The Power of the Powerless
    But above all else what is required to prevent a full descent into the madness of totalitarianism is action by as many people as possible. For just as the ruling elite do not sit around passively, but instead take deliberate steps to increase their power, so too an active and concerted effort must be made to move the world back in the direction of freedom. This can be an immense challenge in a world falling prey to the delusions of totalitarianism, but as Thomas Paine noted:
    “Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict the more glorious the triumph.”

    Thomas Paine, American Crisis
    link

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Bump, bump.... A must read and understand.

    Quote Posted by RunningDeer (here)
    Quote Posted by One (here)
    I have not had time to go through this thread properly yet but it is an interesting subject thanks Bill.

    Anyway, I came across this interesting video on the techniques for creating mass psychosis and totalitarianism. And I suppose this dichotomy we are seeing now could just be the product of these techniques to a large degree (although there is definitely more to it overall imo). Anyway a good watch nevertheless I think (if it has not already been posted elsewhere).

    The Manufacturing of a Mass Psychosis
    Can Sanity Return to an Insane World?
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.”

    Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind
    Diseases of the body can spread through a population and reach epidemic proportions, but so too can diseases of the mind. And of these epidemics of the latter variety, the mass psychosis is the most dangerous. During a mass psychosis madness becomes the norm in a society and delusionary beliefs spread like a contagion. But as delusions can take many forms, and as madness can manifest in countless ways, the specific manner in which a mass psychosis unfolds will differ based on the historical and cultural context of the infected society. In the past, mass psychoses have led to witch hunts, genocides and even dancing manias, but in the modern era it is the mass psychosis of totalitarianism that is the greatest threat:
    “Totalitarianism is the modern phenomenon of total centralized state power coupled with the obliteration of individual human rights: in the totalized state, there are those in power, and there are the objectified masses, the victims.”

    Arthur Versluis, The New Inquisitions
    In a totalitarian society the population is divided into two groups, the rulers and the ruled, and both groups undergo a pathological transformation. The rulers are elevated to an almost god-like status which is diametrically opposed to our nature as imperfect beings who are easily corrupted by power. The masses, on the other hand, are transformed into the dependent subjects of these pathological rulers and take on a psychologically regressed and childlike status. Hannah Arendt, one of the 20th century’s preeminent scholars of this form of rule, called totalitarianism an attempted transformation of “human nature itself”. But this attempted transformation only turns sound minds into sick minds for as the Dutch medical doctor who studied the mental effects of living under totalitarianism wrote:
    “… there is in fact much that is comparable between the strange reactions of the citizens of [totalitarianism] and their culture as a whole on the one hand and the reactions of the…sick schizophrenic on the other.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    The social transformation that unfolds under totalitarianism is built upon, and sustained by, delusions. For only deluded men and women regress to the childlike status of obedient and submissive subjects and hand over complete control of their lives to politicians and bureaucrats. Only a deluded ruling class will believe that they possess the knowledge, wisdom, and acumen to completely control society in a top-down manner. And only when under the spell of delusions would anyone believe that a society composed of power-hungry rulers, on the one hand, and a psychological regressed population, on the other, will lead to anything other than mass suffering and social ruin.

    But what triggers the psychosis of totalitarianism? As was explored in the previous video of this series, the mass psychosis of totalitarianism begins in a society’s ruling class. The individuals that make up this class, be it politicians, bureaucrats, or crony capitalists, are very prone to delusions that augment their power, and no delusion is more attractive to the power-hungry, than the delusion that they can, and should, control and dominate a society. When a ruling elite becomes possessed by a political ideology of this sort, be it communism, fascism or technocracy, the next step is to induce a population into accepting their rule by infecting them with the mass psychosis of totalitarianism. This psychosis has been induced many times throughout history, and as Meerloo explains:
    “It is simply a question of reorganizing and manipulating collective feelings in the proper way.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    The general method by which the members of a ruling elite can accomplish this end is called menticide, with the etymology of this word being ‘a killing of the mind’, and as Meerloo further explains:
    “Menticide is an old crime against the human mind and spirit but systematized anew. It is an organized system of psychological intervention and judicial perversion through which a [ruling class] can imprint [their] own opportunistic thoughts upon the minds of those [they] plan to use and destroy.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    Priming a population for the crime of menticide begins with the sowing of fear. For as was explored in the first video of this series, when an individual is flooded with negative emotions, such as fear or anxiety, he or she is very susceptible to a descent into the delusions of madness. Threats real, imagined, or fabricated can be used to sow fear, but a particularly effective technique is to use waves of terror. Under this technique the sowing of fear is staggered with periods of calm, but each of these periods of calm is followed by the manufacturing of an even more intense spell of fear, and on and on the process goes, or as Meerloo writes:
    “Each wave of terrorizing . . . creates its effects more easily – after a breathing spell – than the one that preceded it because people are still disturbed by their previous experience. Morality becomes lower and lower, and the psychological effects of each new propaganda campaign become stronger; it reaches a public already softened up.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    While fear primes a population for menticide, the use of propaganda to spread misinformation and to promote confusion with respect to the source of the threats, and the nature of the crisis, helps to break down the minds of the masses. Government officials, and their lackies in the media, can use contradictory reports, non-sensical information and even blatant lies, as the more they confuse the less capable will a population be to cope with the crisis, and diminish their fear, in a rational and adaptive manner. Confusion, in other words, heightens the susceptibility of a descent into the delusions of totalitarianism, or as Meerloo explains:
    “Logic can be met with logic, while illogic cannot—it confuses those who think straight. The Big Lie and monotonously repeated nonsense have more emotional appeal … than logic and reason. While the [people are] still searching for a reasonable counter-argument to the first lie, the totalitarians can assault [them] with another.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    Never before in history have such effective means existed to manipulate a society into the psychosis of totalitarianism. Smart phones and social media, television and the internet, all in conjunction with algorithms that quickly censor the flow of unwanted information, allow those in power to easily assault the minds of the masses. What is more the addictive nature of these technologies means that many people voluntarily subject themselves to the ruling elite’s propaganda with a remarkable frequency:
    “Modern technology teaches man to take for granted the world he is looking at; he takes no time to retreat and reflect. Technology lures him on, dropping him into its wheels and movements. No rest, no meditation, no reflection, no conversation – the senses are continually overloaded with stimuli. [Man] doesn’t learn to question his world anymore; the screen offers him answers-ready-made.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    But there is a further step the would-be totalitarian rulers can take to increase the chance of a totalitarian psychosis, and this is to isolate the victims and to disrupt normal social interactions. When alone and lacking normal interactions with friends, family and coworkers, an individual becomes far more susceptible to delusions for several reasons: Firstly, they lose contact with the corrective force of the positive example. For not everyone is tricked by the machinations of the ruling elite and the individuals who see through the propaganda, can help free others from the menticidal assault. If, however, isolation is enforced the power of these positive examples greatly diminishes. But another reason that isolation increases the efficacy of menticide is because like many other species, human beings, are more easily conditioned into new patterns of thought and behaviour when isolated, or as Meerloo explains with regards to the physiologist Ivan Pavlov’s work on behavioural conditioning:
    “Pavlov made another significant discovery: the conditioned reflex could be developed most easily in a quiet laboratory with a minimum of disturbing stimuli. Every trainer of animals knows this from his own experience; isolation and the patient repetition of stimuli are required to tame wild animals. . . .The totalitarians have followed this rule. They know that they can condition their political victims most quickly if they are kept in isolation.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    Alone, confused and battered by waves of terror, a population under an attack of menticide descends into a hopeless and vulnerable state. The never-ending stream of propaganda turns minds once capable of rational thought into playhouses of irrational forces and with chaos swirling around them, and within them, the masses crave a return to a more ordered world. The would-be totalitarians can now take the decisive step, they can offer a way out and a return to order in a world that seems to be moving rapidly in the opposite direction. But all this come at a price: The masses must give up their freedom and cede control of all aspects of life to the ruling elite. They must relinquish their capacity to be self-reliant individuals who are responsible for their own lives, and become submissive and obedient subjects. The masses, in other words, must descend into the delusions of the totalitarian psychosis.
    “Totalitarianism is man’s escape from the fearful realities of life into the virtual womb of the leaders. The individual’s actions are directed from this womb – from the inner sanctum. . .man need no longer assume responsibility for his own life. The order and logic of the prenatal world reign. There is peace and silence, the peace of utter submission.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    But the order of a totalitarian world is a pathological order. By enforcing a strict conformity, and requiring a blind obedience from the citizenry, totalitarianism rids the world of the spontaneity that produces many of life’s joys and the creativity that drives society forward. The total control of this form of rule, no matter under what name it is branded, be it rule by scientists and doctors, politicians and bureaucrats, or a dictator, breeds stagnation, destruction and death on a mass scale. And so perhaps the most important question facing the world is how can totalitarianism be prevented? And if a society has been induced into the early stages of this mass psychosis, can the effects be reversed?

    While one can never be sure of the prognosis of a collective madness, there are steps that can be taken to help effectuate a cure. This task, however, necessitates many different approaches, from many different people. For just as the menticidal attack is multi-pronged, so too must be the counter-attack. According to Carl Jung, for those of us who wish to help return sanity to an insane world, the first step is to bring order to our own minds, and to live in a way that provides inspiration for others to follow:
    “It is not for nothing that our age cries out for the redeemer personality, for the one who can emancipate himself from the grip of the collective [psychosis] and save at least his own soul, who lights a beacon of hope for others, proclaiming that here is at least one man who has succeeded in extricating himself from the fatal identity with the group psyche.”

    Carl Jung, Civilization in Transition
    But assuming one is living in a manner free of the grip of the psychosis there are further steps that can be taken: firstly, information that counters the propaganda should be spread as far, and as wide, as possible. For the truth is more powerful than the fiction and falsities peddled by the would-be totalitarian rulers and so their success is in part contingent on their ability to censor the free flow of information. Another tactic is to use humour and ridicule to delegitimize the ruling elite or as Meerloo explains:
    “We must learn to treat the demagogue and aspirant dictators in our midst. . .with the weapon of ridicule. The demagogue himself is almost incapable of humor of any sort, and if we treat him with humor, he will begin to collapse.”

    Joost Meerloo, The Rape of the Mind
    A tactic recommended by Vaclav Havel, a political dissident under Soviet communist rule who later became president of Czechoslovakia, is the construction of what are called “parallel structures”. A parallel structure is any form of organization, business, institution, technology, or creative pursuit that exists physically within a totalitarian society, yet morally outside of it. In communist Czechoslovakia, Havel noted that these parallel structures were more effective at combating totalitarianism than political action. Furthermore, when enough parallel structures are created, a “second culture” or “parallel society” spontaneously forms and functions as an enclave of freedom and sanity within a totalitarian world. Or as Havel explains in his book The Power of the Powerless:
    “….what else are parallel structures than an area where a different life can be lived, a life that is in harmony with its own aims and which in turn structures itself in harmony with those aims? . . .What else are those initial attempts at social self-organization than the efforts of a certain part of society…to rid itself of the self-sustaining aspects of totalitarianism and, thus, to extricate itself radically from its involvement in the…totalitarian system?”

    Vaclav Havel, The Power of the Powerless
    But above all else what is required to prevent a full descent into the madness of totalitarianism is action by as many people as possible. For just as the ruling elite do not sit around passively, but instead take deliberate steps to increase their power, so too an active and concerted effort must be made to move the world back in the direction of freedom. This can be an immense challenge in a world falling prey to the delusions of totalitarianism, but as Thomas Paine noted:
    “Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict the more glorious the triumph.”

    Thomas Paine, American Crisis
    link

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Wind: most intelligent people aren't cold, calculating sociopaths. And thank God for that. It's intelligent people that make the world go 'round. They're responsible for all the luxuries and amenities we all enjoy today.
    I think that is partly true, but if intelligent people are running the world then doesn't that make them insane too because the world is and has been running in an insane way? Note that I am grateful for all the things I have, including technology and all. People in thirld world countries don't have all the luxuries we do, but even then it doesn't change the fact that there is something terribly wrong with this society of ours too. If wisdom was running it then there would be no problems like we currently are having, quite many of them being self-created due to greed or ignorance etc.

    Quote And while compassion is right up there as far as values are concerned, I think it's second to truth. Truth is our true north. Everything else follows. Without truth (and I don't mean your truth, or my truth, or whatever. I mean *the* truth, with a capital "T") the world would be an insane, incoherent place...
    I hold Truth in high value, in fact it is the be-all and end-all. The problem is that many people don't care about the truth, all that matters to them is their truth and thus they are blindsided.

    Sapience would be needed, here's how Wikipedia describes it:

    Quote Sapience is closely related to the term "sophia" often defined as "transcendent wisdom", "ultimate reality", or the ultimate truth of things. Sapiential perspective of wisdom is said to lie in the heart of every religion, where it is often acquired through intuitive knowing. This type of wisdom is described as going beyond mere practical wisdom and includes self-knowledge, interconnectedness, conditioned origination of mind-states and other deeper understandings of subjective experience. This type of wisdom can also lead to the ability of an individual to act with appropriate judgement, a broad understanding of situations and greater appreciation/compassion towards other living beings.
    Last edited by Wind; 27th April 2021 at 22:07.
    "When you've seen beyond yourself, then you may find, peace of mind is waiting there." ~ George Harrison

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    Australia Avalon Member Constance's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Wind (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Wind: most intelligent people aren't cold, calculating sociopaths. And thank God for that. It's intelligent people that make the world go 'round. They're responsible for all the luxuries and amenities we all enjoy today.
    I think that is partly true, but if intelligent people are running the world then doesn't that make them insane too because the world is and has been running in an insane way? Note that I am grateful for all the things I have, including technology and all. People in thirld world countries don't have all the luxuries we do, but even then it doesn't change the fact that there is something terribly wrong with this society of ours too. If wisdom was running it then there would be no problems like we currently are having, quite many of them being self-created due to greed or ignorance etc.

    Quote And while compassion is right up there as far as values are concerned, I think it's second to truth. Truth is our true north. Everything else follows. Without truth (and I don't mean your truth, or my truth, or whatever. I mean *the* truth, with a capital "T") the world would be an insane, incoherent place...
    I hold Truth in high value, in fact it is the be-all and end-all. The problem is that many people don't care about the truth, all that matters to them is their truth and thus they are blindsided.

    Sapience would be needed, here's how Wikipedia describes it:

    Quote Sapience is closely related to the term "sophia" often defined as "transcendent wisdom", "ultimate reality", or the ultimate truth of things. Sapiential perspective of wisdom is said to lie in the heart of every religion, where it is often acquired through intuitive knowing. This type of wisdom is described as going beyond mere practical wisdom and includes self-knowledge, interconnectedness, conditioned origination of mind-states and other deeper understandings of subjective experience. This type of wisdom can also lead to the ability of an individual to act with appropriate judgement, a broad understanding of situations and greater appreciation/compassion towards other living beings.
    Regarding intelligence, compassion and truth - the highest virtues in this world may be the lowest in another.

    There are universal truths available to us and this is where establishing a universal language, one that allows us to instantly recognize a universal truth when we see it will empower us and dissolve any conflict and confusion.

    Compassion as I see it, is serving another in living the highest truth. As I shared upstream with Mikey, it's the common-passion - what we truly require to come together to live in harmony.

    What most people describe as being compassionate, is only fluffing someone's pillows to help another temporarily feel better, or to secure or assert a place in the world, it's not serving them to live the highest truth.

    I had an example of this just the other day. I was saying to someone the other day that I have never worn a mask, I've never social distanced and I didn't stay within the 5 kilometre rules when they were imposed because the whole thing is a scam.

    Their response to me was that wearing a mask was being compassionate towards others. However, if you look at this response for what it truly was, all it was doing was to try to project guilt, shame and blame onto anyone who wants to live outside of zoo society.
    It also dishonoured anyone who is trying to expose what the elite are doing and how harmful these vaccines are. If we are living as sovereign beings, why should anyone have any jurisdiction over us?

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