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Thread: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

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    United States Avalon Member Free Thinker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

    EDIT to add:
    Of course "intelligence" is just one of many the valuations that humans can possess that give them special value. We tend to lump all these valuations, under the term "intelligence" without any proper distinction, but like you mention above, there are many other distinct values for consideration.
    I have my sincere doubts that anyone (especially not us humans) can measure such a thing at all. It would be like trying to measure love or compassion or creativity or some other equally undefinable value. Such a belief or practice thereof is often rife with untold abuse.
    "The truth will set us free, whatever that may be."
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    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Free Thinker (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

    EDIT to add:
    Of course "intelligence" is just one of many the valuations that humans can possess that give them special value. We tend to lump all these valuations, under the term "intelligence" without any proper distinction, but like you mention above, there are many other distinct values for consideration.
    I have my sincere doubts that anyone (especially not us humans) can measure such a thing at all. It would be like trying to measure love or compassion or creativity or some other equally undefinable value. Such a belief or practice thereof is often rife with untold abuse.
    It measures something rather specific, like I explained. And also like I explained, what it measures is only one out of many valuations that can give a person value, such as the other values that you mentioned and attributed (perhaps wrongly, or at least without distinction) to "intelligence". I think you grossly misunderstood (the intention of) my post ... did you even read the whole thing?
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 25th April 2021 at 04:40. Reason: clarity
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Free Thinker (here)
    Putting numbers of any kind on one's "IQ" is just more dogma and more lies. I, personally, will not fall for that trap.

    But to each their own.

    Nope, it's a demonstrably accurate way of testing for intelligence. It's so blatantly and statistically obvious that it cannot be disputed.

    I would encourage you to just do a little bit of looking into it. That's all it would take.

    But this is kind of the point of the thread, isn't it? There are smart people not just disputing things that are obviously true, but downright denying them. I didn't intend to create an example here, but my intuitive intelligence must have guided me into it

    To add to my previous post:
    Smart people don't want to appear to be wrong either. It's kind of an emotional gut punch, particularly if their identity is wrapped up in being smart. Much easier to dig in and double down on the original argument. And I do speak from experience here! Not that I'm especially smart, but I've done this many, many times in my life. So no way am I preaching from a pulpit! For example: I've never really liked guns. Though I abhor the word, I'll use it here - they "trigger" me a little. I've made very emotional arguments against guns, both here and in my everyday life, that I knew made little sense logically. But there was a sense of pride that wouldn't allow me to let go, and a desire to maintain what felt like the moral high ground at the time. Plus, having dug my heels in so far, I didn't want to appear foolish.

    Sometimes smart people are just uninformed, and having defended a position so vigorously, they don't want to admit to perhaps being wrong. I know this because I've done it. I'm just as guilty as anyone here. I like to think I'm getting better at avoiding it, but I still catch myself doing it from time to time.
    Last edited by Mike; 25th April 2021 at 04:57.

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

    "and how IQ tests can't detect much outside of pattern recognition."

    I don't think I know anyone that would state that an IQ is the be-all and end-all of determining a persons worth or even intelligence. Perhaps you put too much faith in that belief that it is considered the de facto standard, or "system" as you put it.
    On the contrary, it is my lack of faith or belief in people who are using and falling back on that very same exact limited crutch to not put their own vile spin on it, and do exactly what you just stated; make it the end-all, be-all. Maybe that was the original intent in the beginning not to do so, but we truly don't understand how to handle such complex matters. There is far too much EGO in such a practice, far too much trying to "capture this in a bottle for the masses to forever ooh and aah over", too much "labeling" going on, to be able to ever take such seriously or to see any true credibility in it.

    Again, this is just my opinion. But one that makes a whole heck of a lot of sense to me.
    "The truth will set us free, whatever that may be."
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    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Free Thinker (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

    "and how IQ tests can't detect much outside of pattern recognition."

    I don't think I know anyone that would state that an IQ is the be-all and end-all of determining a persons worth or even intelligence. Perhaps you put too much faith in that belief that it is considered the de facto standard, or "system" as you put it.
    On the contrary, it is my lack of faith or belief in people who are using and falling back on that very same exact limited crutch to not put their own vile spin on it...
    I don't see that ... I've hung around with some incredibly intelligent people in my life with very high IQ's (by the test), not one would spin it with vile ... Unless that was a covert jab at something specific in your life ... or perhaps something recently?
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    UK Avalon Member Mike Gorman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Well, you know I have developed some ideas about intelligence over the years: it has always struck me that our education systems and psychometric understanding has been deeply flawed.
    The architect of the original Eye queue school (as I capriciously term it), Alfred Binet was called on by the French government to determine which French children would not do well in their emerging compulsory education system, so they could
    construct remedial classes for them.
    Binet in 1905 discovered that we are not all the same (the heavens part with an astounding glimpse of reality); and that the nature of human intelligence is highly protean, variable and vastly unquantifiable.

    For the empirical thinkers of the early 20th Century, this was an intolerable state of affairs! They demanded that we consider intelligence as being quantifiable, and materially considered, we should be able to determine how much intelligence each human unit contains!
    Hence we developed this very wrong headed idea about intellect, that Eye Queue is a material substance, a discernible quality which can be measured and contained; everyone can be evaluated for possessing a certain quantity of Eye Queue!
    How much Eye Queue do you have, the average amount of 100, or are you a Genius with 145+?
    Alfred Binet, being a genuine man of science and really a man of profound integrity, did not feel very comfortable about his Test; he voiced these concerns to his colleagues, they told him to be quiet and to collect his fee from the French government.
    But ever since, from 1905 we have been led along this strange, very neat orderly path of assessing Eye Queue, and considering ourselves as either being very ordinarily stupid, or not stupid at all and able to join Mensa, and talk about abstruse puzzles and feel very important.
    The entire foundation of psychometrics is founded on a lie.
    The education systems we have constructed are all deeply flawed, and our people are herded into streams of employment and social positions on the basis of our performance.
    But we each know, I feel, that there is something not at all right about this; we each sense there is a lot more going on with our minds than a number assigned to its worth, a numerical absolute which defines our potential value.

    The true creative wizards among our number flourish whether they are 'allowed' to or not; those of us who understand the open-ended nature of human thinking, have always had enormous problems with the official conceptions of education and learning.
    This is why we have so many thwarted, unhappy people in our midst, we have made a huge error with Eye queue, and its absolute nature, I think we shall come to know this in future times, if we survive.

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Nope, it's a demonstrably accurate way of testing for intelligence. It's so blatantly and statistically obvious that it cannot be disputed.
    Well, I assume that was tongue-in-cheek. An IQ test tests how good you are at doing an IQ test. Nothing more. That's the point of this thread!

    See also this thread, in which the whole elusive notion of "intelligence" was discussed here a couple of years ago. That also touches on how very unintelligent some people with high IQs are.

    Being able to do math puzzles against the clock has absolutely nothing to do with true intelligence, awareness and being a fully-functioning, high-ability human being. Anyone who can't see that may not be very bright.

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    IQ tests are pretty accurate actually and quite revealing. An IQ can be measured pretty easily. And it's the predominant indicator of success in the world, without question. Just ask yourself this: if you had a choice would you rather have an IQ of 65 or 145? If you had an IQ of 65 you wouldn't have any linguistic ability, would likely never be able to read, write, get a job, or leave home...regardless of what your so called emotional, spiritual, spatial, or musical intelligences were. It's definitely not 1/10th of the picture. When you're talking about intelligence, it's basically the whole picture.

    .
    In terms of the link between IQ and professional standing/income in the current world I would say this is true. IQ does play a big role in ones ability and speed in processing and retaining abstract and technical information. Of course, as we have all acknowledged the ability to be successful in the current world is by no means the most important thing in one's life. My wife is taking online classes at the moment and is having a far harder time with courses I breezed through twenty years ago, BUT I would say that her direct awareness of things like spirits, energy, and spontaneous compassion for others is greater than my own. By and large, the postmodern world created by high IQ people is also ruining the planet.

    While I do enjoy discussions with those who have an IQ close to or higher than my own, it is incredibly frustrating when they can't see their own biases. I don't mind that they have them, just that they can't or wont see through them. It comes up often as of late when people say things like "trust science" "science says" or "follow the science", as if science was an utterly pure process that gives 100% gospel truth. I like the process and discovery of research as well, but research and scientific journals are created by humans, and humans are heavily subject to biases and funding sources. Said funding sources are more often than not corporations. While a good research study should be evaluated based on the evidence and not who funded it, saying "trust science" without looking at things more in depth is basically a way of saying "I trust capitalist corporations".

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    This is a serious thread. For years I've pondered why (e.g.) someone with a PhD and a measured IQ of 180 might be just really dumb and unaware outside of their specialist field. We see this ALL the time.

    It's not about EQ (Emotional Intelligence) or SQ (Spiritual Intelligence). I think it's about the predominant vulnerability of almost all humans, whatever their IQ, EQ, SQ, age, culture, or level of education, to be victims of belief.

    And there may be two components to that:
    1. The susceptibility to being initially influenced to form a belief.
    2. The resistance to letting go of it once it's entrenched.
    A high intellect can paradoxically be a handicap, as extremely clever people are often very skilled at self-justifying whatever beliefs they have. A smart and articulate person will defend their beliefs strongly, self-reinforcing all the time.

    I'd be most interested in other members' views (and experiences!) about this.
    High IQ stupidity could be due to lack of life experience. And courage to think for oneself. Getting good grades requires more obedience than intelligence. Old souls tend to dislike school. Car salesmen remark on how dumb medical doctors are, make ideal "victims."

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Archaeologists and linguists tell us that the Sumerians believed in many gods and goddesses. I used to take that as a given. I have translated recently some tablets from 2300 BC that were previously untranslated and basically ignored. And one speaks of their having more than one god, but choosing one to worship out of them, and thus they declare "One God for all to worship". So I thought to myself, how is it possible that other translators, most with many degrees and published papers, ignore this or refuse to publish it?

    I gave up on the idea that they were not that intelligent, because some of them actually are. I then considered some type of agenda, either related to Atheism or established religion, but neither seem to fit all of the instances in which this type of behavior raises its ugly head. I have found instances of where scholars have buried evidence of course - such as the Univ. of Penn scholars, trained at Yale, who refused to publish an archaeological mention of Abraham, and in the time period of 1980 BC, which fits. And it was claimed to be due to their fears that the crowd who were trying to claim that the Hebrews copied everything from the Sumerians would have more ammunition. But that's a very weak argument, and especially since the authors were both Lutheran ministers as well as Archaeologists.

    Some have posited that we are cattle, and that some group has been calling the shots, amending history, and pretty much doing what they want since man first began writing or even earlier. I have never wanted to believe that theory, but in all honesty I have no real evidence against it either.

    There are simply too many idiotic theories that they stick to no matter what the evidence says, to convince me that it is simply academic stubbornness. But lines have been drawn that are not crossed, at the peril of losing your Government grants or University tenure or even your job. And thus the new crop seems reluctant or unable to effect a lasting change.

    Every six months I watch again the movie "They Live". Somehow it comforts me and allows me to continue with my mundane existence for another six. And so it goes.

    I am currently trying to get out a book as fast as possible, but on the back burner I have assembled a few chapters and notes on one that I have given a working title of Historical Amnesia - which examines the possibility that some PTSD enacting event in our distant past may have caused us to have an amnesiatic episode in regards to our true history, and that the inability to answer a great deal of questions about our supposed past has ignited the stress levels to the degree that they cause our modern scientists to mentally stutter and even lie, when presented with those questions.
    Last edited by Jim_Duyer; 25th April 2021 at 15:24.

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    I’m just reading this very interesting article called

    Toward the Neurobiology of Delusions

    The authors have examined in dedicated research study and plenty of corroborative effort ways “beliefs” and “delusions” can be formed and encoded in our brain,
    synergic relationship of neurotransmitters uptake and release, the neurone oscillation hypothesis and much more.
    The study works primarily with psychotic subjects or those in whom psychotic delusions have been induced chemically however the field covers very large spectrum of individual symptomatics and it altogether aspires to decode the background of brain function, long and short term memory sequencing and encoding,
    signal to noise ratio and ways errors get encoded as prior memories,
    which can happen for many reasons.

    I feel that whoever have the patience to read through this study ( and apply those observations to their own brain activity, with discrimination ) can benefit.


    Don’t forget about pinch of salt 🍿


    It’s captivating.

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    This is a serious thread. For years I've pondered why (e.g.) someone with a PhD and a measured IQ of 180 might be just really dumb and unaware outside of their specialist field. We see this ALL the time.

    It's not about EQ (Emotional Intelligence) or SQ (Spiritual Intelligence). I think it's about the predominant vulnerability of almost all humans, whatever their IQ, EQ, SQ, age, culture, or level of education, to be victims of belief.

    And there may be two components to that:
    1. The susceptibility to being initially influenced to form a belief.
    2. The resistance to letting go of it once it's entrenched.
    A high intellect can paradoxically be a handicap, as extremely clever people are often very skilled at self-justifying whatever beliefs they have. A smart and articulate person will defend their beliefs strongly, self-reinforcing all the time.

    I'd be most interested in other members' views (and experiences!) about this.
    I have often thought about this as well over the years and while I don’t pretend to know why this is so, I’ll chime in with my two cents worth.

    I have been taught by, and worked with, highly educated people for most of my life and while there were some who demonstrated a high level of intelligence even outside of their field of expertise, there were others that made me wonder how they got their degrees. Some were good teachers and could clearly explain concepts they were teaching while others not so much. Some espoused the virtues of book learning with apparently little or no realization or acknowledgement that countless books were in conflict and that the “knowledge learned” was highly dependent on from which book(s) one preached.

    Regardless of who or what we are (or think we are), we are all products of our environment. Our beliefs, biases and prejudices are instilled in us from birth by our parents, family and friends, teachers and others who we looked up to. Some of us were lucky enough to come from good nurturing environments while others were not so lucky. Our experiences from those formative years, and our reactions to those experiences, have helped to mold us into whom and what we are today. Yet we all still have the ability to grow and change if we so choose. For example, if we had an abusive parent we might have adopted those behaviors toward our own children as a negative way of dealing with the trauma inflicted upon us in our childhood. Or, we may choose to never become that abusive parent and turn our negative experience into a positive one for our children by loving and encouraging them.

    The bottom line is that all of us, including highly educated people, come to the table with their own set of biases, prejudices and beliefs derived from a lifetime of experiences and reactions to those experiences. But there is no guarantee that a high IQ will make one more self-aware of their biases, prejudices and beliefs—particularly negative ones—than any other person. It requires introspection and a sincere desire and effort to examine ones beliefs and adjust them accordingly if found to be contrary or detrimental to what one thinks they are.
    There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Bill great post and topic.
    I have an average I q. I got d,s and F,s in school and dropped out of college. But i have been referred to by some as a polymath

    A polymath (Greek: πολυμαθής, polymathēs, "having learned much"; Latin: homo universalis, "universal man")[1] is an individual whose knowledge spans a substantial number of subjects, known to draw on complex bodies of knowledge to solve specific problems.


    I am the kind of person you want around when the car breaks down, or stranded on an island and need to invent with the surroundings in order to stay alive.
    I approach my art, music and creativity as a problem solver.
    We award book smarts in our educational system which is memorization in my opinion. We do not award logic and invention.

    Beliefs are a manifestation of the ego. A need to cling to a position in order to make us right. How could a person of any religion be told one day that your religion is wrong? They would have to say, wow I wasted 50 years of my life believing something wrong. Im pretty stupid. Not going to happen

    But beliefs are unavoidable and so is the ego. OSHO said you cannot defeat an ego , only observe it. i believe him! haha

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Free Thinker (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

    "and how IQ tests can't detect much outside of pattern recognition."

    I don't think I know anyone that would state that an IQ is the be-all and end-all of determining a persons worth or even intelligence. Perhaps you put too much faith in that belief that it is considered the de facto standard, or "system" as you put it.
    On the contrary, it is my lack of faith or belief in people who are using and falling back on that very same exact limited crutch to not put their own vile spin on it...
    I don't see that ... I've hung around with some incredibly intelligent people in my life with very high IQ's (by the test), not one would spin it with vile ... Unless that was a covert jab at something specific in your life ... or perhaps something recently?
    All I'm trying to say is, I don't trust the psychopathic idiots running our society, and that goes for their deranged "IQ tests" as well (correct me if I'm wrong here on the latter).

    I will read over and respond more to this thread later, as I think I need to focus on other things (both onsite and offsite) at the current time. I appreciate the feedback though.

    I realized I forgot to include common sense along with the other types of "intelligence." Oh well. I can edit that later.

    Edit: Edited initial post.
    Last edited by Free Thinker; 25th April 2021 at 21:10.
    "The truth will set us free, whatever that may be."
    "Question everything. Make a path where there was not one before."
    "We are part of the Universe. It's story, is our story."

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Nope, it's a demonstrably accurate way of testing for intelligence. It's so blatantly and statistically obvious that it cannot be disputed.
    Well, I assume that was tongue-in-cheek. An IQ test tests how good you are at doing an IQ test. Nothing more. That's the point of this thread!

    See also this thread, in which the whole elusive notion of "intelligence" was discussed here a couple of years ago. That also touches on how very unintelligent some people with high IQs are.

    Being able to do math puzzles against the clock has absolutely nothing to do with true intelligence, awareness and being a fully-functioning, high-ability human being. Anyone who can't see that may not be very bright.



    No I'm deadly serious! An IQ test is a clear indicator of how well you'll perform in the world. It's self evident.

    I'm not sure what you mean about "true" intelligence!. Intelligence is intelligence and shouldn't require any qualifiers. It's quantifiable, that's what IQ tests are for. But if you mean emotional intelligence, spiritual intelligence, body intelligence etc etc etc, I would say: you can't demonstrate that those things even exist. They're not falsifiable. It's like inventing new genders. While it's true that some people are more spiritually oriented, or emotionally grounded, it won't matter much if they can't read or do basic arithmetic. That is, if you want to be successful in the world. If you're perfectly happy roaming forests and staring at the sky all day, and have a group of friendly people problem solving for you , then IQ is unimportant. But life is a series of problems and situations that must be navigated, and if you can't do that reasonably well you're in real trouble, regardless of what your “true” intelligence (whatever that is!) suggests.

    Among all the various forms of “intelligence” being proposed here, I would say that basic intelligence (IQ) is common among all of them. I don't have the graph in front of me, but I would say that basic intelligence correlates more with all the manufactured subcategories than it doesn't. Dividing all these things up is more of an invitation to chaos than anything else. If you're unintelligent in terms of IQ, reading music will be very difficult. You'll also suffer emotionally because you'll be an outcast. Even if you're athletic, your decisions on the field or the court will be poor. You'll have trouble gaining employment. As a result of that, you'll have great difficulty meeting a spouse, or starting a family. And so forth. If your basic intelligence is poor, all the other various forms of “intelligence” will suffer as well. It's a trickle down thing.

    Yes, it's true that there are very smart people (IQ) that are emotional disasters. Or smart people that aren't very spiritual. But they represent the extremes. And yes, there are savants too, but they also represent the extremes. Most people that are reasonably smart are also reasonably stable.

    An IQ test is a very good indicator if how well you'll perform in the world. And that's how I'm defining it here. Maybe we're talking about different things. But it's the most determining factor of one's life, success, and happiness. You can try and dispute that if you wish but I think it's a losing game.

    IQ has been studied and refined since the early 20th century. It's a well established branch of psychology. Psychologists have defined intelligence in a more stringent and accurate way than almost any other psychological construct. We have very specific and accurate ways of measuring the cognitive skills that make one successful in the world (IQ) so if you dilute that with notions of emotional or spiritual “intelligence” etc, all it does it muddy the waters and distort a well defined and researched body of knowledge. It's not useful. IQ has a predictive validity that none of those other alleged intelligences have. I'm going off the science here, no guesswork involved.
    Last edited by Mike; 26th April 2021 at 01:17.

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  31. Link to Post #36
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Nope, it's a demonstrably accurate way of testing for intelligence. It's so blatantly and statistically obvious that it cannot be disputed.
    Well, I assume that was tongue-in-cheek. An IQ test tests how good you are at doing an IQ test. Nothing more. That's the point of this thread!

    See also this thread, in which the whole elusive notion of "intelligence" was discussed here a couple of years ago. That also touches on how very unintelligent some people with high IQs are.

    Being able to do math puzzles against the clock has absolutely nothing to do with true intelligence, awareness and being a fully-functioning, high-ability human being. Anyone who can't see that may not be very bright.

    No I'm deadly serious! An IQ test is a clear indicator of how well you'll perform in the world. It's self evident.
    Well, maybe I'm just not very bright. It's not self-evident to me!

    "How well you'll perform in the world..."
    • As a loving parent?
    • An inspiring teacher?
    • A natural empath?
    • A healer? A poet? An artist? A gifted gardener? A great cook? An animal rescuer? A suicide hotline counselor?
    • The kindest friend you ever knew?
    • Someone you'd dearly love to ask to marry you?
    • Someone who would willingly endanger their life to help a colleague in a battle? (Or on a mountain, or at sea?)
    • Someone with a hotline to God, in whatever form that might take in our modern world?
    I know which Avalon members I really admire and would love to have as neighbors. (That list includes yourself, by the way. ) But IQ isn't a qualifier. Being a sensitive, aware, high-spirited, perceptive, kind person definitely is.

    Many people with very high IQs are limited, blinkered, self-justifying, self-important jerks. I could easily generate a long list of well-known public figures, and so could you. They're highly able in just one nerdy specialty. (And they may be sociopaths as well.)

    And many people who've never excelled academically are the most wonderful, altruistic people you'd ever be lucky enough to meet... the kind of people I'm guessing you'd like to see making decisions about the world.

    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 25th April 2021 at 21:29.

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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Nope, it's a demonstrably accurate way of testing for intelligence. It's so blatantly and statistically obvious that it cannot be disputed.
    Well, I assume that was tongue-in-cheek. An IQ test tests how good you are at doing an IQ test. Nothing more. That's the point of this thread!

    See also this thread, in which the whole elusive notion of "intelligence" was discussed here a couple of years ago. That also touches on how very unintelligent some people with high IQs are.

    Being able to do math puzzles against the clock has absolutely nothing to do with true intelligence, awareness and being a fully-functioning, high-ability human being. Anyone who can't see that may not be very bright.



    No I'm deadly serious! An IQ test is a clear indicator of how well you'll perform in the world. It's self evident.

    I'm not sure what you mean about "true" intelligence!. Intelligence is intelligence and shouldn't require any qualifiers. It's quantifiable, that's what IQ tests are for. But if you mean emotional intelligence, spiritual intelligence, body intelligence etc etc etc, I would say: you can't demonstrate that those things even exist. They're not falsifiable. It's like inventing new genders. While it's true that some people are more spiritually oriented, or emotionally grounded, it won't matter much if they can't read or do basic arithmetic. That is, if you want to be successful in the world. If you're perfectly happy roaming forests and staring at the sky all day, and have a group of friendly people problem solving for you , then IQ is unimportant. But life is a series of problems and situations that must be navigated, and if you can't do that reasonably well you're in real trouble, regardless of what your “true” intelligence (whatever that is!) suggests.

    Among all the various forms of “intelligence” being proposed here, I would say that basic intelligence (IQ) is common among all of them. I don't have the graph in front of me, but I would say that basic intelligence correlates more with all the manufactured subcategories than it doesn't. Dividing all these things up is more of an invitation to chaos than anything else. If you're unintelligent in terms of IQ, reading music will be very difficult. You'll also suffer emotionally because you'll be an outcast. Even if you're athletic, your decisions on the field or the court will be poor. You'll have trouble gaining employment. As a result of that, you'll have great difficulty meeting a spouse, or starting a family. And so forth. If your basic intelligence is poor, all the other various forms of “intelligence” will suffer as well. It's a trickle down thing.

    Yes, it's true that there are very smart people (IQ) that are emotional disasters. Or smart people that aren't very spiritual. But they represent the extremes. And yes, there are savants too, but they also represent the extremes. Most people that are reasonably smart are also reasonably stable.

    An IQ test is a very good indicator if how well you'll perform in the world. And that's how I'm defining it here. Maybe we're talking about different things. But it's the most determining factor of one's life, success, and happiness. You can try and dispute that if you wish but I think it's a losing game.

    IQ has been studied and refined since the early 20th century. It's a well established branch of psychology. Psychologists have defined intelligence in a more stringent and accurate way than almost any other psychological construct. We have very specific and accurate ways of measuring the cognitive skills that make one successful in the world (IQ) so if you dilute that with notions of emotional or spiritual “intelligence” etc, all it does it muddy the waters and distort a well defined and researched body of knowledge. It's not useful. IQ has a predictive validity than none of those other alleged intelligences have. I'm going off the science here, no guesswork involved.
    I'm completely aware of where you are coming from and why you are saying what you are saying Mikey but here's a question for you and anyone else interested in learning difficulties. If we bear in mind that people who suffer from dyslexia can have trouble with comprehension, writing and reading material, how well do you think the following people who have suffered from a learning difficulty like dyslexia would perform under the pressure of a clock for a testing of their IQ and how would psychologists have evaluated these people as a result of an incomplete IQ test?

    John Lennon, Winston Churchill, Albert Einstein, Walt Disney, Steve Jobs, Michelangelo, Picasso, Mohammed Ali, Richard Branson, Ted Turner, Erin Brockovich, George Patton, Woodrow Wilson, George Washington, Billy Bob Thornton, Jay Leno, Jim Carrey, Keanu Reeves, Ansel Adams, Steven Spielburg, Agatha Christie, Gustave Flaubert, F. Scott Fitzgerald, William Butler Yeats, Auguste Rodin (I just saw a version of "the thinker" at the National Gallery of Victoria - it was bloody brilliant), Harry Belafonte

    and lastly, myself...(I don't put myself in the same category as the people above by the way - I just happen to be dyslexic)

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    United States Moderator Sue (Ayt)'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Just as a small aside, when I worked briefly in our state capitol's advocacy group for the gifted, we made the points that a higher proportion of students measured as gifted dropped out of school, and also a surprisingly high proportion of prisoners are gifted. The advocacy group was attempting to attain more funding for the gifted, as many programs for the students on the higher end of the normal curve were very low-budget, cut, or non-existent, in comparison to the funding for other special needs programs. Many just did not see the need for any extra funding for the gifted.

    The point being, that high IQ's do not necessarily equal societal success. Both extremes of the curve do tend to have problems fitting in with the bulk majority.
    ---------
    Abstract
    The aim of this study was to comparing the mental health of gifted and average high school students. Eighty three students of high school who were selected by randomized classification method, divided in two groups (43 gifted students, 40 average students). In the gifted students’ category, 30.2% were healthy, 59.2% were considered suspicious and 18.6% were known to be vulnerable. As to average students group, 50% were healthy, 37.5% were considered suspicious and 12.5% were known to be vulnerable. Further study with more cases and psychological interview based on DSM-IV after screening is recommended.
    Elsevier Ltd. 2010© Open access under CC BY-NC-ND license.
    https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com

    Abstract
    High intelligence is touted as being predictive of positive outcomes including educational success and income level. However, little is known about the difficulties experienced among this population. Specifically, those with a high intellectual capacity (hyper brain) possess overexcitabilities in various domains that may predispose them to certain psychological disorders as well as physiological conditions involving elevated sensory, and altered immune and inflammatory responses (hyper body). The present study surveyed members of American Mensa, Ltd. (n = 3715) in order to explore psychoneuroimmunological (PNI) processes among those at or above the 98th percentile of intelligence. Participants were asked to self-report prevalence of both diagnosed and/or suspected mood and anxiety disorders, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), autism spectrum disorder (ASD), and physiological diseases that include environmental and food allergies, asthma, and autoimmune disease. High statistical significance and a remarkably high relative risk ratio of diagnoses for all examined conditions were confirmed among the Mensa group 2015 data when compared to the national average statistics. This implicates high IQ as being a potential risk factor for affective disorders, ADHD, ASD, and for increased incidence of disease related to immune dysregulation. Preliminary findings strongly support a hyper brain/hyper body association which may have substantial individual and societal implications and warrants further investigation to best identify and serve this at-risk population.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60289616303324
    "We're all bozos on this bus"

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Nope, it's a demonstrably accurate way of testing for intelligence. It's so blatantly and statistically obvious that it cannot be disputed.
    Well, I assume that was tongue-in-cheek. An IQ test tests how good you are at doing an IQ test. Nothing more. That's the point of this thread!

    See also this thread, in which the whole elusive notion of "intelligence" was discussed here a couple of years ago. That also touches on how very unintelligent some people with high IQs are.

    Being able to do math puzzles against the clock has absolutely nothing to do with true intelligence, awareness and being a fully-functioning, high-ability human being. Anyone who can't see that may not be very bright.

    No I'm deadly serious! An IQ test is a clear indicator of how well you'll perform in the world. It's self evident.
    Well, maybe I'm just not very bright. It's not self-evident to me!

    "How well you'll perform in the world..."
    • As a loving parent?
    • An inspiring teacher?
    • A natural empath?
    • A healer? A poet? An artist? A gifted gardener? A great cook? An animal rescuer? A suicide hotline counselor?
    • The kindest friend you ever knew?
    • Someone you'd dearly love to ask to marry you?
    • Someone who would willingly endanger their life to help a colleague in a battle? (Or on a mountain, or at sea?)
    • Someone with a hotline to God, in whatever form that might take in our modern world?
    I know which Avalon members I really admire and would love to have as neighbors. (That list includes yourself, by the way. ) But IQ isn't a qualifier. Being a sensitive, aware, high-spirited, perceptive, kind person definitely is.

    Many people with very high IQs are limited, blinkered, self-justifying, self-important jerks. I could easily generate a long list of well-known public figures, and so could you. They're highly able in just one nerdy specialty. (And they may be sociopaths as well.)

    And many people who've never excelled academically are the most wonderful, altruistic people you'd ever be lucky enough to meet... the kind of people I'm guessing you'd like to see making decisions about the world.



    You're one of the smartest people I know! And it's served you well! Despite all your other abilities I doubt you'd have this platform if your IQ wasn't as high as it clearly is.

    Just for the record: I rarely even think about IQ. It's not something I consider when interacting with people, or determining who I'll be friends with, or so forth (unless the IQ is so low that it's impossible to get on). If excessively high IQ was required to be on this site, I wouldn't be allowed here. I am a man of modest intelligence, and I think what I'm trying to say is that first and foremost, I think a modest intelligence is required to be successful at mostly anything, even those things you listed.

    (And btw, if you're ever in the Florida area, that dinner is on me)

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    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why humans are unintelligent: it's all about belief

    Quote Posted by Free Thinker (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Free Thinker (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)

    "and how IQ tests can't detect much outside of pattern recognition."

    I don't think I know anyone that would state that an IQ is the be-all and end-all of determining a persons worth or even intelligence. Perhaps you put too much faith in that belief that it is considered the de facto standard, or "system" as you put it.
    On the contrary, it is my lack of faith or belief in people who are using and falling back on that very same exact limited crutch to not put their own vile spin on it...
    I don't see that ... I've hung around with some incredibly intelligent people in my life with very high IQ's (by the test), not one would spin it with vile ... Unless that was a covert jab at something specific in your life ... or perhaps something recently?
    All I'm trying to say is, I don't trust the psychopathic idiots running our society, and that goes for their deranged "IQ tests" as well (correct me if I'm wrong here on the latter).

    ...
    I hear what you are saying, I just highly doubt that they psychopaths running our society have any ownership of the IQ test, nor use it as weapon.

    "We are losing control over the masses sir!"
    "Unleash, The IQ test!!"


    Like I said, most people with a reasonably high IQ would be the first to admit that its an extremely limited type of testing that doesn't represent a person's value in life, intellectually or otherwise. There might be a few, and those would be the types, that score well, but have limited intellectual and other valuable abilities.
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 26th April 2021 at 01:00.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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