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    Australia Avalon Member Spindoctor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Quote Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
    THANK YOU GRACIE MAY! Agreed!
    Let me add to my reply above. Gracie said something I agree with ,but this will tail off into an off topic discussion.
    We do have borders. We do have a crisis. We do have a 2nd amendment. We do have guns. We do have drug cartels. We do have a population hungry for drugs who will buy them and keep the cartels in business .We are in debate over our environment and so on. These are realities not going away with any president.
    You acknowledge the above grim realities but project bias when it comes to Biden

    Trump built a wall and had a position on protecting our sovereignty.
    Trump openly went after brown people and other foreigners calling them rapists, murderers, gang members, terrorists in a blatant and divisive racist appeal to white voters, to gather in the proud boys, militias and GOP diehards. He lashed blacks, muslims, before he tried to get elected. His view of US soveriegnty was purely for self empowerment..
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...eignty/598822/ .. "In his deeds, rather than in his words, Trump is concerned only with internal sovereignty, which has to do with the question of who has the final legitimate authority within a state. And he is advancing a particularly self-serving version of that idea—one in which he is the sovereign, free not so much from foreign interference, but from the internal institutions that exist to scrutinize and curb his executive power. This kind of sovereignty is an enemy of democracy, not its ally."

    "Biden undid all Trump did and we have a crisis. He didnt do it for the benifit of this country or for the benifit of the people flooding in.
    He did it because thats what the dems want. They want voters and to keep people on the government dole as insurance.
    They want power, just like the Republicans do. its a matter of which of both bad systems do you want?
    My feeling on our borders has nothing to do with race. 100% nothing.We either have a border, a policy, and a route to becoming a legal citizen or we don't.
    And letting these people flood in against the law is an injustice to anyone who has waited on line to do so the legal way.
    Fact Biden is trying to undo the worst excesses of trumps storm troopers victimising people held in concentration camps where you have kids sleeping on concrete , He can't undo all that trump harmed nor is the immigration influx the result of bidens election.
    Trump spent billions on a wall that migrants jump daily using $5 ladders. The wall is still there, the people flood has continued before, during and after Trump. The only difference now is that kids are not being abused by border security and authorities are scrutinised to ensure minimal harm is done, the sick are cared for and some care and respect as per the US constitution for each living person is shown.

    Quote he didn't do it for the country or the people flooding in"
    Open bias on show there ..Biden has called for action from VP Harris to try to solve what is a huge ongoing and costly economic and human problem going on for decades if not the past century or so. Biden is demanding action and solutions to halt the influx, prevent systemic child abuse, separation of families, homelessness and the massive drain on government security, relief, health and other agencies. Putting up a wall doesn't address the causes of the influx nor stop it. it is a massive problem with no end in sight but involves years of diplomacy, aid, assistance, influence, pressure and

    "They want voters to to keep people on the dole as insurance"
    Again open bias.
    Many of the illegal immigrants don't apply for citizenship, therefore cannot vote nor qualify for the dole, so your claim all are willing political pawns or dole bludgers is false. If that was the truth Texas would be a blue state as they have had the biggest growth in population especially from minorities than almost anywhere else. Fact check Immigrants want to work. They overwhelmingly look down on the dole. Study after study shows the tax and job benefits they and their kids generate are huge and also that the jobs they often are prepared to do the average American doesn't so they actually complement and fill out the jobs sector. Over $11 billion in taxes according to the PBS story. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy...he-u-s-economy

    Quote They want power, just like the Republicans do. its a matter of which of both bad systems do you want?"
    You might want to actually look at what the Dems policies are, what they are attempting to do in the stimulus package in the face of incredible opposition from billionaires, corporations, lobbyists, bought off GOP and Murdoch to stop any changes to a current economic model which as we saw last year massively enriched the 1% but has hollowed out the middle class, encouraged division, racism, suppression of wages & minorities, lowered education for all but the rich, and continued extortionate healthcare.
    The newest Dem congressmen and women elected in 2018 were told by trump spopkesman and ex goldman sachs how government is run.
    “Gary Cohn, former CEO Goldman Sachs addressing new members of Congress today: ‘You guys are way over your head, you don’t know how the game is played,'” Tlaib tweeted. “No Gary, YOU don’t know what’s coming – a revolutionary Congress that puts people over profits.”
    https://www.businessinsider.com.au/a...8-12?r=US&IR=T

    So both parties are not the same and to lump them together is disingenuous. As I said from the outset America is at the make or break stage, the Dems through Biden are enacting policies to break the stranglehold of corporations and corrupt vestede interests.

    Pulitzer prize winning journalist Chris hedges says America has a decade to fix its systemic inequities and rigged economy or else there will be civil war and total collapse.
    He witnessed that in Europe. I take his views seriously..

    Disillusioned voters opted for Biden because Trump was a tool of the billionaires. Now Biden is attempting to make a raft of radical changes including what are commonsense easily implemented programs to bring real benefits to the public and which have been iin place in other western countries since the 50's. Things like free healthcare & education, public housing, a months leave or more each yer, substantial sick leave, maternity leave for both parents, a shorter working week, unions, a living wage and real wage growth and others.

    If you didn't vote you are to blame for not changing the system. You abrogated your responsibility to keep your politicians and businesses accountable and honest. If you voted for trump you wanted more of the same so don't bitch if the injustice, violence and protest which he fomented continues especially involving and against a racist embedded militarised police force.

    Lastly if you can afford to stand in line to apply for citizenship, you are obviously rich enough and have the resources to not to be forced to walk/ smuggled under threat to life and limb across multiple countries to be dumped at the border. They would welcome a chance to apply legally. Many thousands don't have any choice left and see America as their only hope.. so the inrush continues.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    I come back to this is war -- world wide.
    It is always possible to find the good or the bad that people have done.
    Hitler built a magnificent road system which is still of benefit to Germany, that does not mitigate the evil of Satanism, the millions killed on both sides.
    Look at what is behind the current situation -- forget Biden forget Trump.
    Do you support what the founding Fathers set out in the constitution?
    Its that simple.

    Many are dying many have their lives ruined, many suicidal.
    Look very deeply at the root cause of this.
    If you are not 100% for the constitution then you are supporting all manner of things.
    Unwittingly perhaps.
    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Spin D/ once again , how different people can see things. thanks for your thoughts

    Chris, yes I believe in what the founding fathers set out in the constitution. its that simple

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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Spindoctor, I could be wrong, but it seems to me that it isn't the case that poster's on this thread don't like what you are saying or advocating, but rather that they just don't believe that Biden, and the Democratic party through him, are actually going to do the things they say they are going to do. And not because of interference from the GOP, but because things may not be as they appear, or as we are told. Are there hidden agendas? Hidden players and forces working through government and politicians, regardless of party? Many seem to think so and that these forces aren't what most would call benevolent.

    If Biden turns the US into a better, kinder and fairer place to live, I can't imagine that very many would be against that. I wish Biden and the Democratic are as you say they are, and that they just want to improve the US and life for her citizens. I just can't shake the feeling that isn't exactly true unfortunately. There are members here who are far more informed then I am and can point to evidence of this if you are interested. The way Bernie was treated comes to mind for me.

    None the less, maybe it can lessen the enmity here knowing that many want similar things. Maybe not exactly the same things, but much is shared.
    Last edited by Billy Vasiliadis; 4th May 2021 at 13:56.

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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Billy, I agree. I have voted liberal democrat my entire life. I only voted once for someone not a democrat and that was D Trump in this last election. I didnt vote at all in the previous Clinton/Trump election for the first time in my life.

    I would have voted for Tulsi Gabbard had she won the nomination. I am an anti war person . I will lean to a candidate that will avoid war. And Trump is and followed thru on his promise. And he was removed because he was not a MIComplex war supporter.

    So understand, I know this Dem party today is nothing like it once was. Nothing at all and I am well aware of this. i believe the nomination was stolen from Bernie and others. I believe Seth Rich was "marginalized "cause he had evidence to this theft and gave it to Assange. There is so much more than meets the eye in all this its staggering.

    is censorship the answer? is hunting down trump voters and supporters the answer? is changing election laws the answer? well I could go on but its pointless

    its a modern day Tower of Babel, and we are all speaking different languages. its beginning to look like, stick to your own kind, because the debate is illogical and only stress producing

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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    I feel that the Biden crowd has been less energetic/enthusiastic after the election. My wife has lots of friends on Fakebook, quite a few got doctorate degrees and are blue blood Democrats themselves. She used to tell me how they felt very vocally and enraged at Trump. That was before the election. Not any more. I asked if they still praise Biden and she did say yes, of course because they just do, kind of a broad brush observation. But I doubt that when I am talking with them face to face.

    I have a Latino renter, an illegal immigrant. He did not vote but said that Biden would win, by what he saw on TV and the poll numbers. He was laughing at me because I did not believe in the polls. We had a bet - a case of Bud Light . When he moved out, saying it was getting too dangerous to live in North Minneapolis lately and you know why, right?, he wanted to collect his bet. I said sure but Biden did not win. To my surprise, he reluctantly admittedly said "well! Biden stole the election but you know he is president now." So there, in his hive-mind circle, they know.

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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Quote Posted by Billy Vasiliadis (here)
    None the less, maybe it can lessen the enmity here knowing that many want similar things. Maybe not exactly the same things, but much is shared.
    Perhaps much of the divide appears to be one of idealism vs. realism?
    "We're all bozos on this bus"

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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Quote Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
    I would have voted for Tulsi Gabbard had she won the nomination.
    Me too.

    Quote Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
    I am an anti war person .
    Me too.


    Quote Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
    I will lean to a candidate that will avoid war.
    Me too, even though I don't vote any more.


    Quote Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
    And Trump is and followed thru on his promise. And he was removed because he was not a MIComplex war supporter.
    And that's where you start to lose me there Doug. True he didn't start any new wars, so credit given there, but he sure as hell got us within a whisper of all out war with Iran after executing their top field commander. Who was not a terrorist, and was actually an enemy of ISIS. Go figure...

    He gave the Saudis, who actually are a world leader in terrorism (as opposed to Iran) with their extreme Wahhabism, a dream of a lifetime weapons deal. He also vetoed a bill demanding the US stop assisting the Saudis in their genocide in Yemen.

    In Syria. True he didn't get us in there, but he sure seemed to relish the idea of continuing things there, especially in jacking their oil, and making sure ISIS remnants were safe in Idlib. He also was fine with the crippling sanctions on the Syrian people, so that it even makes it very difficult for them to rebuild.

    Speaking of sanctions. What did the people of Iran or Venezuela ever do to us, to deserve their own crippling sanctions? It's well known now that sanctions affect everyday people, not leadership.

    Siege warfare, is warfare.

    Quote Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
    i believe the nomination was stolen from Bernie and others.
    Agreed. The democratic establishment is as scummy as it gets.

    Quote Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
    I believe Seth Rich was "marginalized "cause he had evidence to this theft and gave it to Assange.
    Very likely. However, I always cringe when seeing Trump fans talking about Assange, when it was Trump himself who released the hounds who got him thrown into the hole. Talk about cancelling someone, I wouldn't even bring that up when talking about great things that administration did.

    Of course I'm (unsurprisingly) not seeing Biden doing anything different there either, although if he really does get us out of Afghanistan (I'll believe it when I see it!) I will give him a standing o for that one.
    If you trust your government
    You don't know history

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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Gracie/ thanks and thanks for acknowledging Trump did not start any new wars. Thats all I said. As for the killing of one man , perhaps it was necessary? I dont really know. And almost starting a war is not doing so. there are so many power games these people need play and its multi leveled. perhaps if we were read into what the stakes are, we would understand better? again , I dont know
    Imagine an E T factor was at the helm of all this? then this entire post of mine is moot because we lil lemmings have no clue what were all talking about.

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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Quote Posted by Spindoctor (here)
    Quote Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
    THANK YOU GRACIE MAY! Agreed!
    Let me add to my reply above. Gracie said something I agree with ,but this will tail off into an off topic discussion.
    We do have borders. We do have a crisis. We do have a 2nd amendment. We do have guns. We do have drug cartels. We do have a population hungry for drugs who will buy them and keep the cartels in business .We are in debate over our environment and so on. These are realities not going away with any president.
    You acknowledge the above grim realities but project bias when it comes to Biden

    Trump built a wall and had a position on protecting our sovereignty.
    Trump openly went after brown people and other foreigners calling them rapists, murderers, gang members, terrorists in a blatant and divisive racist appeal to white voters, to gather in the proud boys, militias and GOP diehards. He lashed blacks, muslims, before he tried to get elected. His view of US soveriegnty was purely for self empowerment..
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...eignty/598822/ .. "In his deeds, rather than in his words, Trump is concerned only with internal sovereignty, which has to do with the question of who has the final legitimate authority within a state. And he is advancing a particularly self-serving version of that idea—one in which he is the sovereign, free not so much from foreign interference, but from the internal institutions that exist to scrutinize and curb his executive power. This kind of sovereignty is an enemy of democracy, not its ally."

    "Biden undid all Trump did and we have a crisis. He didnt do it for the benifit of this country or for the benifit of the people flooding in.
    He did it because thats what the dems want. They want voters and to keep people on the government dole as insurance.
    They want power, just like the Republicans do. its a matter of which of both bad systems do you want?
    My feeling on our borders has nothing to do with race. 100% nothing.We either have a border, a policy, and a route to becoming a legal citizen or we don't.
    And letting these people flood in against the law is an injustice to anyone who has waited on line to do so the legal way.
    Fact Biden is trying to undo the worst excesses of trumps storm troopers victimising people held in concentration camps where you have kids sleeping on concrete , He can't undo all that trump harmed nor is the immigration influx the result of bidens election.
    Trump spent billions on a wall that migrants jump daily using $5 ladders. The wall is still there, the people flood has continued before, during and after Trump. The only difference now is that kids are not being abused by border security and authorities are scrutinised to ensure minimal harm is done, the sick are cared for and some care and respect as per the US constitution for each living person is shown.

    Quote he didn't do it for the country or the people flooding in"
    Open bias on show there ..Biden has called for action from VP Harris to try to solve what is a huge ongoing and costly economic and human problem going on for decades if not the past century or so. Biden is demanding action and solutions to halt the influx, prevent systemic child abuse, separation of families, homelessness and the massive drain on government security, relief, health and other agencies. Putting up a wall doesn't address the causes of the influx nor stop it. it is a massive problem with no end in sight but involves years of diplomacy, aid, assistance, influence, pressure and

    "They want voters to to keep people on the dole as insurance"
    Again open bias.
    Many of the illegal immigrants don't apply for citizenship, therefore cannot vote nor qualify for the dole, so your claim all are willing political pawns or dole bludgers is false. If that was the truth Texas would be a blue state as they have had the biggest growth in population especially from minorities than almost anywhere else. Fact check Immigrants want to work. They overwhelmingly look down on the dole. Study after study shows the tax and job benefits they and their kids generate are huge and also that the jobs they often are prepared to do the average American doesn't so they actually complement and fill out the jobs sector. Over $11 billion in taxes according to the PBS story. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy...he-u-s-economy

    Quote They want power, just like the Republicans do. its a matter of which of both bad systems do you want?"
    You might want to actually look at what the Dems policies are, what they are attempting to do in the stimulus package in the face of incredible opposition from billionaires, corporations, lobbyists, bought off GOP and Murdoch to stop any changes to a current economic model which as we saw last year massively enriched the 1% but has hollowed out the middle class, encouraged division, racism, suppression of wages & minorities, lowered education for all but the rich, and continued extortionate healthcare.
    The newest Dem congressmen and women elected in 2018 were told by trump spopkesman and ex goldman sachs how government is run.
    “Gary Cohn, former CEO Goldman Sachs addressing new members of Congress today: ‘You guys are way over your head, you don’t know how the game is played,'” Tlaib tweeted. “No Gary, YOU don’t know what’s coming – a revolutionary Congress that puts people over profits.”
    https://www.businessinsider.com.au/a...8-12?r=US&IR=T

    So both parties are not the same and to lump them together is disingenuous. As I said from the outset America is at the make or break stage, the Dems through Biden are enacting policies to break the stranglehold of corporations and corrupt vestede interests.

    Pulitzer prize winning journalist Chris hedges says America has a decade to fix its systemic inequities and rigged economy or else there will be civil war and total collapse.
    He witnessed that in Europe. I take his views seriously..

    Disillusioned voters opted for Biden because Trump was a tool of the billionaires. Now Biden is attempting to make a raft of radical changes including what are commonsense easily implemented programs to bring real benefits to the public and which have been iin place in other western countries since the 50's. Things like free healthcare & education, public housing, a months leave or more each yer, substantial sick leave, maternity leave for both parents, a shorter working week, unions, a living wage and real wage growth and others.

    If you didn't vote you are to blame for not changing the system. You abrogated your responsibility to keep your politicians and businesses accountable and honest. If you voted for trump you wanted more of the same so don't bitch if the injustice, violence and protest which he fomented continues especially involving and against a racist embedded militarised police force.

    Lastly if you can afford to stand in line to apply for citizenship, you are obviously rich enough and have the resources to not to be forced to walk/ smuggled under threat to life and limb across multiple countries to be dumped at the border. They would welcome a chance to apply legally. Many thousands don't have any choice left and see America as their only hope.. so the inrush continues.
    You do know that the concentration camp was an Obama policy.the kids on concrete floor was an Obama policy.the pictures you saw of children in cages locked in were proven to be false propaganda that's well documented on this sight.
    This is all of topic all of it.only a few days ago MOD hats were out steering this thread to stay on target,which up set a few people.
    now there taking it of topic ,I'll skip off this thread
    Last edited by samildamach; 4th May 2021 at 19:38.

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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    I see some fallacy here in a lot of this reasoning - on both sides of this debate ...

    How much power do we really believe the POTUS has? On one hand most of us here will say that it is the super elites, the super rich, the extremely powerful corporation who pull the strings, yet in a lot of the argument I am sensing it seems as though that idea is abandoned and the argument becomes reduced to "this POTUS did this and didn't do that, etc.

    I'm not saying that the POTUS has no power, but I am saying it is somewhat limited.

    Some silly arguments, like "Trump had nothing to do with War" and say "Biden rescues children from abuse and cages and concrete floors" are complete and utter nonsense.

    Does one really believe that Trump himself went to the border and said "Remove the carpet! Make these kids sleep on concrete! And why aren't these kids in cages!" and then Biden comes along and personally installs carpet, removes kids from the cages himself to sniff a couple in a show of his endearment, etc. If you believe this crap, you have lost touch with reality. Neither Biden nor the person he assigned to manage the situation have ever been to the border.

    It goes the other way though too "Trump didn't start any wars! and that means he's the a messenger of God!" -- er, Trump was just real about the wars that the US was actively engaged in during his tenure - and stated that the US was "in it for the oil" instead of making up some bull**** story about how we need to save third world countries from their evil governments or stop some terrorist organization and then market the hell out of that through propaganda like all other administrations do.

    But let's even look at the assassination of the Iranian general ... I think that action was something planned long before Trump was even in office and it was just the timing that he happened to be in office when the "time was right" for the elite who plan these things to make it so. It unironically aligns perfectly with China "catching a cold" and "Iran will be goaded into starting WW3".

    My point is the reasoning that many people are clinging to to defend their "favourite" is in many cases flawed as I see it, and ignores the fact that there is a an awful lot of influence on what happens outside of a POTUS' control.

    Trump didn't save the world, at best he slowed down some of the plans - which, don't get me wrong, it may have extremely beneficial results long term (the way I see it), but much of what is glorified about Trump is nonsensical fantasy. The guy was a buffoon. A disruptive and beneficial one perhaps, but a buffoon nonetheless.


    Biden is just continuing what every other president has been doing for the last 50 years ... the exact same type of **** that got us to exactly where we are today. I laugh when people get their favourite leader into office, and they feel like everything is going great. Nothing is getting better. 1970 was about the peak of how good things get for the middle class. The belief of voting the problems away, is the main reason why the world is so full of problems.

    Voting for Biden (or whoever) and pretending that things will get better if "your man (or woman)" gets in, is an indication that you are blinded by this reality, and have already given up the fight for a better world, and it is exactly this that the elites are counting on to usher in their new world order.
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 4th May 2021 at 21:03.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    United States Avalon Member Mark/Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Voting for Biden (or whoever) and pretending that things will get better if "your man (or woman)" gets it, is an indication that you are blinded by this reality, and have already given up the fight for a better world, and it is exactly this that the elites are counting on to usher in their new world order.
    No, it is not an indication that anyone is blinded by this reality. It is being participatory with other citizens who engage a system that has many flaws but that has worked to the betterment of many people in this country and, when repeated in other nations and run successfully, helps folks in those nations change their stars as well.

    Locally, the system works much better than nationally, although it remains easy for folks to manipulate the system. I believe that the local election I lost last November was manipulated.

    It's got problems and it is probably too late to change it or even shift it for the better, considering where we are in the times. But we had to and have to try, if we still have enough time.

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    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Quote Posted by Mark/Rahkyt (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Voting for Biden (or whoever) and pretending that things will get better if "your man (or woman)" gets it, is an indication that you are blinded by this reality, and have already given up the fight for a better world, and it is exactly this that the elites are counting on to usher in their new world order.
    No, it is not an indication that anyone is blinded by this reality. It is being participatory with other citizens who engage a system that has many flaws but that has worked to the betterment of many people in this country and, when repeated in other nations and run successfully, helps folks in those nations change their stars as well.

    Locally, the system works much better than nationally, although it remains easy for folks to manipulate the system. I believe that the local election I lost last November was manipulated.

    It's got problems and it is probably too late to change it or even shift it for the better, considering where we are in the times. But we had to and have to try, if we still have enough time.
    Blind people can be and often are participatory to what they are blinded to. Being participatory is not relevant to that statement. We believe that we bring about change by voting but I'd argue the plans that got us where we are today were drawn up a very long time ago, and what administration is in office has little to do with it, except where when the elite need "right" policies, they use it and when they need "left" policies they use it - its their tool, not ours.

    But who's to say under a system that wasn't designed to serve the controllers' rule, that our world wouldn't be a vastly better place?
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 4th May 2021 at 19:11. Reason: structure for clarity
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    United States Avalon Member Mark/Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Blind people can be and often are participatory to what they are blinded to. Being participatory is not relevant to that statement.
    That sentence is hard for me to understand. LOL But, not all who participate are blind. That's just facts.

    I'm not blind and I participate.

    I know everything y'all know that call yourselves whatever, since "woke" is negative in this venue. I know many others who are not blind who participate as well.


    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    We believe that we bring about change by voting but I'd argue the plans that got us where we are today were drawn up a very long time ago, and what administration is in office has little to do with it, except where when the elite need "right" policies, they use it and when they need "left" policies they use it - its their tool, not ours.

    But who's to say under a system that wasn't designed to serve the controllers' rule, that our world wouldn't be a vastly better place?
    Who is to say and that is a good question, one that we cannot know the answer to unless we somehow are able to peek in on alternate timelines to see how such potentialities have played out there.

    Sure, voting serves elite interests. Society has always been stratified since the first villages built walls to protect their people and the fruit of their agricultural labor. There were leaders, followers and workers, and, eventually, every caste in the social order to carry out the necessary functions of urbanized society.

    This is the best system we've come up with yet. It could be improved and it could be further strengthened against fraud.

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    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Quote Posted by Mark/Rahkyt (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Blind people can be and often are participatory to what they are blinded to. Being participatory is not relevant to that statement.
    That sentence is hard for me to understand. LOL But, not all who participate are blind. That's just facts.

    I'm not blind and I participate.

    I know everything y'all know that call yourselves whatever, since "woke" is negative in this venue. I know many others who are not blind who participate as well.


    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    We believe that we bring about change by voting but I'd argue the plans that got us where we are today were drawn up a very long time ago, and what administration is in office has little to do with it, except where when the elite need "right" policies, they use it and when they need "left" policies they use it - its their tool, not ours.

    But who's to say under a system that wasn't designed to serve the controllers' rule, that our world wouldn't be a vastly better place?
    Who is to say and that is a good question, one that we cannot know the answer to unless we somehow are able to peek in on alternate timelines to see how such potentialities have played out there.

    Sure, voting serves elite interests. Society has always been stratified since the first villages built walls to protect their people and the fruit of their agricultural labor. There were leaders, followers and workers, and, eventually, every caste in the social order to carry out the necessary functions of urbanized society.

    This is the best system we've come up with yet. It could be improved and it could be further strengthened against fraud.
    I'd say there's a massive amount of distance between people coming up with a hierarchy to channel group decision making, and what we have today as far as national and international politics go. To compare the two and say "this is the best we have come up with" would be disingenuous. And I'd also say that to not recognize that massive amount of distance, would be due to blindness, however that blindness came about (I'm not necessarily putting fault on the individuals).
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    United States Avalon Member Mark/Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    I'd say there's a massive amount of distance between people coming up with a hierarchy to channel group decision making, and what we have today as far as national and international politics go. To compare the two and say "this is the best we have come up with" would be disingenuous. And I'd also say that to not recognize that massive amount of distance, would be due to blindness, however that blindness came about (I'm not necessarily putting fault on the individuals).
    You're the one comparing the two since you just came up with the first example - "coming up with a hierarchy to channel group decision making" - out of the whole cloth of your mind. So does that mean you're being disingenous? This feels like word games and put downs and I'm not down with that. I'll tap out now.

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    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Quote Posted by Mark/Rahkyt (here)
    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    I'd say there's a massive amount of distance between people coming up with a hierarchy to channel group decision making, and what we have today as far as national and international politics go. To compare the two and say "this is the best we have come up with" would be disingenuous. And I'd also say that to not recognize that massive amount of distance, would be due to blindness, however that blindness came about (I'm not necessarily putting fault on the individuals).
    You're the one comparing the two since you just came up with the first example - "coming up with a hierarchy to channel group decision making" - out of the whole cloth of your mind. So does that mean you're being disingenous? This feels like word games and put downs and I'm not down with that. I'll tap out now.
    It was written with the intent to be synonymous to this: "...There were leaders, followers and workers, and, eventually, every caste in the social order to carry out the necessary functions of urbanized society. " - from your previous post.

    You indicated that such a system is "the best we have come up with", I was saying that what we have vs an ideal of what we might think it is, or what we believe it was intended to be, are not the same.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Avalon Member Delight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    If the plot is so much bigger than any one politician (of which I fully agree btw), and these guys are just placeholders (of which I also agree!), why spend so much time and effort plastering pro Trump and stop the steal stuff all over the forum?

    Either it matters, or it doesn't. Which is it?

    A lot of people say they are beyond politics, yet the posting history does not bear that out when so many posts highly favor one side of the political great divide, and those who support and spread those particular ideas.
    "Stop the Steal" was the cry for fairness in elections. It is obvious to me that not only was the election stolen but the remedies were corrupted.
    I think the US has now entered into the same Take Down of civilization that Venezuela and others have already enjoyed.
    Maybe some of us are just weighing out as best we can who will "let us live to fight another day."
    From my limited observation, the Republicans are less dangerous ATM.

    The Republicans have been much less "boot jack" about the lockdowns. Republican governors showed that in practice, all the draconian measures were LESS than helpful.
    IMO for example, Republicans seem to be less involved with the social up ending. There also seems to be less interest in applying cancel culture techniques.

    There is some evidence that the present admin is the overseers of the end of life (not just as we know it) for most.

    IMO the present admin is ushering us into a 100% totalitarian control state. It seems possible now we could even have a nuclear war. Food is being planned to be made unavailable. There is evidence in letting the borders flood, proclaiming dissent to be domestic terror, PUSHING dangerous untested gene therapy etc. AND THEN saying reactions are "next waves" that there is no benevolent agency to intervene.

    It will make some people fight back and IMO that will be an excuse to "round up" the resistance.

    Adding this here as the covid saga continues

    Last edited by Delight; 5th May 2021 at 02:07.

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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    "Stop the Steal" was the cry for fairness in elections. It is obvious to me that not only was the election stolen but the remedies were corrupted.
    I think the US has now entered into the same Take Down of civilization that Venezuela and others have already enjoyed.
    Maybe some of us are just weighing out as best we can who will "let us live to fight another day."
    From my limited observation, the Republicans are less dangerous ATM.

    The Republicans have been much less "boot jack" about the lockdowns. Republican governors showed that in practice, all the draconian measures were LESS than helpful.
    IMO for example, Republicans seem to be less involved with the social up ending. There also seems to be less interest in applying cancel culture techniques.

    There is some evidence that the present admin is the overseers of the end of life (not just as we know it) for most.

    IMO the present admin is ushering us into a 100% totalitarian control state. It seems possible now we could even have a nuclear war. Food is being planned to be made unavailable. There is evidence in letting the borders flood, proclaiming dissent to be domestic terror, PUSHING dangerous untested gene therapy etc. AND THEN saying reactions are "next waves" that there is no benevolent agency to intervene.

    It will make some people fight back and IMO that will be an excuse to "round up" the resistance.[/QUOTE]


    I am really interested in how you can maintain your view in the face of verifiable facts, official documents, multiple vote audits all leading to the same result, over 30 frivolous court actions all thrown out by GOP appointed judges who found on the overwhelming evidence..... Biden won the election.

    Stop trying to argue that incontrovertible physical evidence was faked. Trump was spouting Stop the steal years before the election casting doubt on voter integrity reinforcing his self serving claim there would be foul play.. It played to his base and was a blatant attempt to destroy a democratic process and reinstall himself as Dear Leader.

    The election was fairer than expected according to Repub governors and US and overseas independent agencies, as because of Covid, massive numbers of postal votes were issued, signed for, votes cast and then returned, all sealed and witnessed. The votes were tallied, counted and recounted numerous times and even Republican governors and officials constantly said the results stand, are true and correct. What minimal issues with questionable votes were sorted every time.. Numerous GOP nominated and endorsed Judges rejected the dozens of frivolous lawsuits mounted by the disgruntled die hards wanting to subvert democracy to retain power at any cost. Even the massive ongoing gerrymander could not keep the GOP in power because people stood in harsh weather all day to ensure their vote counted.

    You can go back and hand count again the physical evidence of all the votes. There is your proof.

    BUT not when the Biden win is inconvenient to GOPers desperate to keep power and the cash cow coming in from vested interests.. The GOP paid for Cyber Ninjas, who lets be honest are open backers of this conspiracy push, are conducting a vote audit in Georgia, using their own security, self appointed cops and scrutineers, at least one identified who took part in the capitol insurrectioin while most media are excluded as observers, but not far right OAN, so the entire operation is suspect and far from unbiased and open. Why aren't all media allowed to watch proceedings? This reeks of wilful fraud, fabrication and open contempt for democracy when even GOP Governors and other groups oppose this travesty and try to stop it.

    Maricopa board of supervisors chair Jack Sellers went on CNN saying they ran the election vote for all people not vested interests and what Cyber Ninja are doing is unprofessional.
    IMHO The fix is in.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp6cCjHYz3k&t=382s


    "The repubs have been much less boot jack about the lockdowns."
    Yep it shows too. With the result more GOP supporters are dead.
    A study of COVID-19 diagnoses and deaths from March to December 2020 finds that a greater number occurred in states led by Republican governors.
    The study suggests that the less stringent remediation measures taken by Republican governors have likely led to the imbalance.
    The study provides statistical evidence about the danger of political polarization.
    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/art...-hardest-study

    It must be very depressing and certainly unhealthy believing in nothing but certain doom and gloom from imaginary enemies and end of world scenarios. I'd like a shred of evidence to back up your claims. If nothing happens and in fact the US becomes a happier, healthier, more prosperous and caring society many will be shocked and angry they were lied to by propagandists who prosper from chaos.

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    United States Avalon Member mpennery's Avatar
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    Default Re: Biden voters and supporters. How is it going?

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Quote Posted by thepainterdoug (here)
    Hi Gracie. is that in jest or a real place? dont know.

    Regardless, I didnt ask about truth, so I dont think it is relevant. I asked how the Biden supporters are feeling bout things so far.How he and Kamala are doing? There must be an opinion?
    My bad Doug, kind of assumed most regulars around here knew of that break away forum split up from this one several years ago. I'm not advertising, just pointing out it's a real place with a real local history.
    https://jandeane81.com/forum.php

    I wasn't jesting, TOT is as blue as Avalon is red. I doubt very seriously you'll find any Biden supporters here.
    Does that mean it’s safe to come back?? 😇
    Fear is simply a consequence of a lack of information.

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