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Thread: The AltRight is NOT the whole of the Alternative Community

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    Avalon Member enfoldedblue's Avatar
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    Default Re: The AltRight is NOT the whole of the Alternative Community

    Quote Posted by Mark/Rahkyt (here)
    Quote Posted by enfoldedblue (here)
    Thanks for this thread Mark. Skimming through the posts I applaud your patience and the investnent of your time in your responses. And thank you to the other commenters who shared their perspectives with kindness and vulnerability.
    Big fan of you, sistersoul, thank you for contributing to the conversation.

    Quote Posted by enfoldedblue (here)
    To me discussion with the goal to increase understanding of that which we term 'other' (whatever it may be for us) is they key to moving forward and rising above the oppression that keeps the few dominating the human collective.
    Yes. I find that my own, personal stance is kind of Libertarian according to some test I took the other day, so me, personally, I'm not necessarily one whom could be considered to be a Leftist BLM or Antifa scion. But I am university trained at the PhD level and so understand the philosophy and education which undergirds much of what the Left believes and is putting into practice. Theory never translates into reality, all of our experiments with economic and social philosophies have proven that to be so. And yet, we find ourselves still beholden to them, calling each other capitalists and communists, when neither of those systems, as practiced and theorized, works to the benefit of the people as a whole. They continue to support ages old structures of human civilization and stratification, in a time when we require something new to deal with the issues that are facing us as a planet.

    After having spent time in the political system at the local level and seeing how difficult it is to make change and how the system responds like an immune system to reject the foreign bodies trying to make the change, I don't know if it can be done outside of traumatic and destructive planetary shift resulting in displacement, massive loss of life and movement of entire populations from tropical regions to the north and south of the equatorial regions.

    Those few - of the controller system cabals - understand these problems and have mapped out a way into the near future, it seems, that allows them to keep us off balance and at each other's throats as what seems to be remorseless, machiavellian plans make their way from theory into reality, manifesting all around us as we continue to just talk about it for the most part.

    Quote Posted by enfoldedblue (here)
    Quote We are all doing our best, following what appears to make the most sense based on our experiences, our nature, as well as our beliefs about, and our understanding of reality.

    Each of us has a unique perspective with blindspots that limit our scope of vision. We've all been wrong about things. We've all made mistakes. Surely we can see that there is room for error in our perspective.

    We have been funneled into opposing echo chambers. In our echo chambers we are fed one side of the picture and told that the other side are misinformed, confused, stupid, brainwashed. Often our kindness drops away as we look beyond our echo chamber. Supported by those who think like us we laugh,  poke fun at, demean, insult, ridicule, or put down those in the opposing camps.

    Each one convinced of its righteousness and desparing at the absurdity and stupidity of the other.

    But I ask you to consider that the other side isn't wrong ... they are holding pieces of the truth. Truth mixed with untruths. We all are.

    When we can accept that we don't know what we don't know... and can open to examining other perspectives, without feeling that our own is threatened ...  moving from a place of defence or attack to place of curiosity ... we engage in a process that holds the potential to expand toward wholeness, rather than shoring up the manufactured division.
    Love this. Real talk. I don't know that we have the time to collectively make a difference. But if the controllers plans are to be foiled, that is what it will require. It might take that trauma I mentioned above to motivate the Remnant that remains as trauma does what it does, shocks and awes, leaves speechless and people in action since that doing, then, will be all that will be left to do.

    Finding the truths that each side shares might be a good place to make the difference. But, as I have stated earlier in this thread, I don't think that the group of organizations and the people in them that some call the Alt-Left IS REALLY the Alt-Left. I think groups like BLM and Antifa and others of that ilk are more truly called Alt-Mainstream(MS).

    The real Alt-Left looks more like some of us, here. This said understanding the nigh uselessness of the dichotomization, but working within the parameters as given. We should just be the AltCom, but that ship has sailed in the current political clime.
    I must say, at times when I observe from a space of objectivity I find it fascinating and amazing how effectively they have succeeded in dividing us. From a strategic perspective pitting safety vs freedom was a brilliant move.

    Of course when I drop into my heart and see the effects of this division, the depth of the divide I want to cry.

    So many take prepackaged versions of the alternative narratives,
    (Mainstream alternatives, is a good name) rather than bothering to weave through all narratives to come up with a more balanced perspective.

    But I also see (yes I am an eternal optimist ) the current planetary conditions pushing people to go deeper within. It is not comfortable and right now ... there is still a lot of resistance, resulting in projection and external drama. But I trust that this is a process that is ultimately leading us to realness....and in realness our interconnectedness is an inevitable truth.

    How long this process will take to unfold is anyone's guess. Looking out into external reality it appears we have a very long way to go ... but the path before us is unknown.... and infinite potential lies within waters of mystery.

    Thank you for your reply soul brother

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    Avalon Member lunaflare's Avatar
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    Default Re: The AltRight is NOT the whole of the Alternative Community

    Thanks for all the posts. I have read most of them, but find I am mentally drained with deconstructing terms and definitions.
    I am not so interested in identities these days.
    I am more interested in letting go of fixed beliefs and labels.
    I guess I'm inconsistent:
    I can be Left and Right
    I can be Alt and sometimes Mainstream
    Yep, many shades

    The meaning of words change over time.
    Party politics change, Social attitudes change, my attitudes change as I age...
    Operative word; change

    Identities keep us separated, safe, self-righteous, secure.
    In reality we are beholden to greater mysteries.
    At the heart of mystical teachings is interconnection.
    Love
    Compassion
    I like to focus here of late. This gives me inner peace which I sorely need.

    I was pondering the fusion of the words Right and Left

    Rift

    That pretty much sums it up

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    United States Avalon Member TargeT's Avatar
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    Default Re: The AltRight is NOT the whole of the Alternative Community

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Words are important because they're designed to reflect reality. When you change the words *and* the reality at the same time, all while upending our foundational axioms(like basic biology), it's just an invitation to chaos. My 2 cents, respectfully.
    linguistic drift is the death of accuracy and efficiency.
    Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.
    Where are you?

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    Default Re: The AltRight is NOT the whole of the Alternative Community


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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: The AltRight is NOT the whole of the Alternative Community

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Words are important because they're designed to reflect reality. When you change the words *and* the reality at the same time, all while upending our foundational axioms(like basic biology), it's just an invitation to chaos. My 2 cents, respectfully.
    linguistic drift is the death of accuracy and efficiency.


    Yes, well said. And so is introducing exogenous variables to industry, sport, education, etc. Any time you are required to meet a quota - whether for racial or gender reasons or whatever - you lessen the pool from which you draw from and our collective productivity suffers. So do our bodies of knowledge. It's not progressive, it's regressive. It sets civilization back significantly.

    So when you combine this with the linguistic drift, that's a pretty potent 1,2 punch. Accuracy, efficiency, and productivity declines rapidly..across many dimensions. And if I may put my conspiratorial tinfoil hat on a moment here, I wonder very seriously if it's all being done purposely. The critical theorists make no secret of their hatred for western civilization. They wanna destroy it (the euphemism used in the mainstream is "reimagine" i.e. lets "reimagine" the police force, or lets "reimagine" education). This would be an effective way to start doing that
    Last edited by Mike; 5th May 2021 at 17:24.

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: The AltRight is NOT the whole of the Alternative Community

    Ever since Babylon, and even before, people have found labels useful as a fast and effective means of characterization. Everyone needs to know their place and labels help to delineate. But since a label can be attached to anyone, regardless of affiliation, a better way had to be invented. Languages evolved for this express purpose. By language we could quickly sort out who was who. Even within a language, there are varying degrees of mastery that further delineates the group.

    Languages 'drift' as each generation attempts to distance themselves from the generations that came before. Words and phrases are redefined, sometimes without proper definition. As time goes by the new definition becomes formalized and accepted as the norm.

    The black community is a case in point. I have friends who speak two languages, the one they use with me and in public and the slang-filled hodge-podge of borrowed words and mixed languages often heard in the Caribbean. This keeps their group separate and unique, and different.

    The problem with this approach, however, is that there is a distinct affect on vocabulary, as the choices of words shrinks the vocabulary, making precise statements increasingly difficult. In today's world this is often seen in the fact that young people are speaking in phrases and not in sentences, with tenses, descriptors, and modifiers missing or used inappropriately. This confuses meaning and makes discussion on specific issues almost impossible.

    More troublesome is that the understanding of formal language suffers. If words are not part of an individual's lexicon then the message delivered will not convey the intended meaning. Entire swaths of a discussion can be misunderstood even though the intention of understanding was present all along.

    When meaning is disrupted, common sense can easily be the first casualty as emotions become the purveyor of facts, which is acceptable in some discussions but not in others. Like the perception of fiat currency as a thing of value, perception of the intended meaning is not the meaning intended. Perception has no place in a higher conversation, unless an opinion is called for, because perception is not fact. As a matter of fact, like with today's money, perception is often the opposite of fact, or the replacement for no facts.

    Words like racist, liberal, conservative or phrases like black lives matter, critical race theory, systemic racism have no universal meaning and so must be interpreted either emotionally or linguistically. Both will pervert the intended meaning because the intended meaning is a personal choice.

    Such perversion of language, or 'linguistic drift' if you like better, is a way to label a group and perpetuate the angst of a movement. It is often a mix of personal feelings and history and comes about because of the 'perceived' need to separate one group from another, whether justified or not. Unfortunately the debate requires precise control of language and so might be almost impossible between two opposing groups, unless formal linguistic rules are stringently followed.

    Like Babylon however, how can two groups that speak two different languages communicate effectively?

    This is the crucial factor in the distinction of altleft and altright. The ground, the base, the motivating factor, of these two groups is divergent. They have conflicting priorities because of circumstance and their resultant opinions vary greatly, as does their suggested solutions.

    Before any meaningful debate or discussion can even begin a compendium of terms should have to be defined, but that in itself would require extensive debate and discussion. It is even unlikely that agreement could be reached on the definitions, so great is the divide between these alts.
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

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    Aaland Avalon Member Agape's Avatar
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    Default Re: The AltRight is NOT the whole of the Alternative Community

    Between the alt-right and alt-left what do we share is a language of meaning, I believe.

    The ultra- alt-right scholars of any pseudoscience can turn linguistically the most rich and productive as most live scientists spend most time on their observations and recording those is time consuming .

    Every human language including the old and modern ones is an offshoot of a tree and keeps growing its branches and crowns till it’s suppressed by another offshoot of the same tree.

    But going down to the roots of the tree of meanings, we are left either with “root syllables” aka letters of modern alphabets , pictograms, characters or hieroglyphs.

    Aside closed systems of alphabets assigned also numerical values

    or semi-open systems like the Chinese characters,

    future of recorded human communication may be simplified but enhanced to open field of colourful pictograms instead.

    Many humans of today still walk with their backs bent from generations of hard work.
    Even nowadays because our backs are weak we fail to sit straight on the chair and people forgot the art of walking.

    There is something that needs to evolve and I believe it does evolve with every new brighter generation and that is straightness of character.

    Unlike our parent generation we learned to give names to our emotions and theirs and acknowledge they exist and talk about it.

    We have learnt how to say no to anyone and explain our reasons.

    We have learnt to be independent of all the rest and left them hanging on their tv till they could also, turn it off.

    We learnt to stand straight for the cause not because they taught us .

    And some of us learnt to say “I’m deeply sorry” when we did a mistake despite our parent generation could never do that, not to themselves even , and that out of pride of being human.

    So I see there is a passage beyond what your forefathers were or my forefathers felt like and no life is not going to respect their tweaks and quirks as it constantly invents new ones.

    I feel, see, there always is a space and need to surpass generation limits , cultural and religious myths and tabus or believes that a colour of your skin and a shape of your nose are a matter of “social credit”.



    A sparkle of light in the darkness
    or a holy book ?


    💫
    Last edited by Agape; 9th May 2021 at 06:39.

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    United States Avalon Member Mark/Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: The AltRight is NOT the whole of the Alternative Community

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    I'm not exactly sure why you'd call capitalism a zero sum game. Could you please elaborate a little? Thx. In it's simplest form, goods are exchanged for money and both sides benefit. Right?
    In theory and in its base form, yes. But when capitalism goes deeper and the systems become more complicated, it becomes economic warfare as cohorts war for resources. I call it 'zero-sum' because, the way that the game is played is as if there is a finite amount of resources out there and if some folks gain it is other folks loss.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    As far as the broadening of definitions (Your phrase, not mine. I think you're being a little kind here. To me these word manipulations feel aggressively Orwellian), it's not the only thing contributing to this confusion and blurring of meaning. We're also facing what I feel is a pretty worrisome subjectivist turn here in this country. We're bombarded with phrases like my truth, your truth, lived experience, I identify as.. and so forth. Everything but the truth. It's tremendously confusing as the lines between the real and the abstract get blurred. This is especially troublesome as it applies to trans issues.
    I totally get that. I'm concerned about trans women competing in sports as well as children being bombarded with messages that actually form their opinions rather than reveal how they already feel.

    In regards to the subjectivist turn, that's only true from the perspective that we were objectivist before. Or, that objectivity is even possible. Is there a such word as multijectivist?

    If not, there should be.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Words are important because they're designed to reflect reality. When you change the words *and* the reality at the same time, all while upending our foundational axioms(like basic biology), it's just an invitation to chaos. My 2 cents, respectfully.
    It is.

    And, sometimes, chaos is necessary. In fact, chaos always accompanies shifts in cultural narratives, which we are undergoing big-time in all of our nations. The false Chinese saying applies, "May you live in interesting times."

    We certainly do, and chaos is a large part of it. We just have to ride the storm out and maintain sanity and openness in our communities as far as we are able. Those of us who can observe the deeper patterns of what is going on right now are in low supply and high demand, even if it seems like we are being targeted right now. It is because we offer a truth alternative to the MSM. Our very existence threatens their hegemony. Each one of us, no matter how small a role it seems we have to play in what is going on, it is important. To those in our immediate environs as well as those further afield.

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    United States Avalon Member Mark/Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: The AltRight is NOT the whole of the Alternative Community

    Quote Posted by enfoldedblue (here)
    I must say, at times when I observe from a space of objectivity I find it fascinating and amazing how effectively they have succeeded in dividing us. From a strategic perspective pitting safety vs freedom was a brilliant move.
    It sounds so simple doesn't it. But has such reverberating and lasting effects in our lived realities. Here in the AltCom, all it took was raising the threat of the extinction of a false reality that generations have bought into. Which is deep because it threatens all that we think we define ourselves by.

    Quote Posted by enfoldedblue (here)
    Of course when I drop into my heart and see the effects of this division, the depth of the divide I want to cry.
    I had an experience last night wherein I was in a zoom of 7or 8 people and I was the only POC. One person in the group began talking about how the larger organization was taking on 'outside perspectives' by trying to diversity the organization. Another member, a leader, was explaining why it needed to be done and the entire conversation was so elementary, but at the same time, requiring such an in-depth explanation, that I despaired of even being able to contribute to the conversation because, where do you start? I've been having these discussions for so long I'm tired. I left the zoom abruptly. I haven't restored integrity around it yet because I'm not sure I'm going to continue in the organization. And this is just my perspective. The depth of the divide is immense.

    Quote Posted by enfoldedblue (here)
    But I also see (yes I am an eternal optimist ) the current planetary conditions pushing people to go deeper within. It is not comfortable and right now ... there is still a lot of resistance, resulting in projection and external drama. But I trust that this is a process that is ultimately leading us to realness....and in realness our interconnectedness is an inevitable truth.
    I agree that it will lead to that. I don't think it will take a lifetime for us to see what we might consider to be more positive shifts occurring. Here in the USA, for instance, the vaccination effort is stalling as they've plateaued it seems on the number of people willing to get it. States are sending vaccinations back to where they got them from. More people are unwilling to do it just because they say so.

    Quote Posted by enfoldedblue (here)
    How long this process will take to unfold is anyone's guess. Looking out into external reality it appears we have a very long way to go ... but the path before us is unknown.... and infinite potential lies within waters of mystery.
    Beautiful. Gotta leave room for mystery. Always. Blessings.

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    United States Avalon Member Mark/Rahkyt's Avatar
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    Default Re: The AltRight is NOT the whole of the Alternative Community

    Quote Posted by lunaflare (here)
    Identities keep us separated, safe, self-righteous, secure.
    In reality we are beholden to greater mysteries.
    At the heart of mystical teachings is interconnection.p
    Thank you for sharing. Beautifully said and so true.

    Individually, it is wonderful to enjoy such ways of being, beyond identity, if you can get there. I'd say not many can, as of yet. We will see how that works out in the near future.

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