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Thread: Math has a "Fatal Flaw" (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem)

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    Default Re: Math has a "Fatal Flaw" (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem)

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    "In the beginning, Math was created."
    A lovely speculation might be that eventually, when we'd developed a powerful enough computer, pi would be calculated to a quadrillion digits.

    Then a sequence of zeros and ones would appear, and when translated from binary would read: "Well done, mankind. I was waiting for you to reach this point. Now you know that I exist."

    Hmmm... sounds familiar. I think I read something very close to that in a SciFi book; maybe an old movie.
    Anything is possible with the proper training.

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    Question Re: Math has a "Fatal Flaw" (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem)

    "Proof" assumes we have limitations in what we call "reality" for practical reasons like: what is the smallest object/particle measured by the smartest quantum computer on Earth or most advanced alien civilization ever in the Universe that can not divided by 2 (if it could it would not be the smallest useful or practical object/particle anymore) ... but with math you can go smaller in to infinity ... which is a paradox to me ... as how is that a "true representation" of reality?
    • My brain hurts.
    What if valid paradoxes are all part of a bigger reality? How does that relate that to us? To what end? Mind-boggling.

    Why do we tend not to allow paradoxes to exist? Maybe because we assume proving any paradox makes something "invalid" meanwhile it is still there! Is this done by design? Prime Creator must be laughing about that in to infinity.

    cheers,
    John
    Last edited by ExomatrixTV; 7th June 2021 at 16:34.
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    Default Re: Math has a "Fatal Flaw" (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem)

    You're zeroing in on things in the set of all things which can (potentially) be measured physically. Not all things are in that set. Try to draw a right angle that is physically, measurably perfect. You can't, however small a level you try to measure it. Hence my signature.
    The only place a perfect right angle ever CAN be, is the mind.

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    Default Re: Math has a "Fatal Flaw" (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem)

    I think it is by designing machines that 'force' or 'coax' the paradox into the forefront and then using it to make impossible things happen, is a way to elicit the effects of the zero point field.
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

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    Default Re: Math has a "Fatal Flaw" (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem)

    "Science always has limitation..."

    It sounds more like "our understanding of reality and our attempts at explaining it, always have limitations"

    Science is not a being or anything like that, it's a constantly moving target, so the limitation is actually ourselves. By how we apply science. As we see everything one way, new discoveries are made and "science advances", now we have another view. Science did not move anywhere, our brains did, our understanding did, whatever we discovered had been there all along, we just could not see it yet

    We have the limitations. Our science may not even be valid for other beings in other realities, it would be meaningless to say that experimenting is not a valid way to test and validate theories, that's all science is in the end

    Quote Posted by Hughe (here)
    Quote In math, true statements are almost always provable, and are proved. For instance, we can prove that 2+3 = 3+2. It's not just someone's theory! That's going be true throughout the universe, on every planet, for all time.
    I can give an counter example that disproves 2+3 = 3+2.
    If the numbers represent purely imaginary objects, then above equation is always true.
    If the numbers represent real objects that orientation of shape changes the total volume, then above equation has limited truth.
    For example, let's put five magnets.
    Make the number two with two magnets arranging [N S] [N S]
    Making the number three with three magnets arranging [N S] [N S] [N S]
    Applying the left side state 2 + 3, creates the number five states:
    [N S] [N S] [N S] [N S] [N S]

    If we flip one of the number two or three to create the number five, below is the result.
    [S N] [S N] <------------> [N S] [N S] [N S]

    Quote And for those of you who remember Pythagoras' theorem (that in a right angled triangle with sides of length a, b and c, a2+b2=c2), we can prove that as well. The equation is always true.
    It only works on uniform Euclidean 3D space.

    3D space such as human face, Pythagora's theorem is failed.


    Science always has limitation.
    Last edited by Mashika; 8th June 2021 at 04:43.

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    Default Re: Math has a

    Quote Posted by syrwong (here)
    If mathematics is incomplete, since it is based on logic, logic is incomplete. It is incomplete in the sense that we cannot get all the truths by logic. It also means that human thinking using logic has very great limitations. Therefore searching for the (ultimate) truth by philosophizing is futile. We may get some, but ultimately because our brain is not created for comprehending everything, we must eventually give up doing so. I prefer picking some words of wisdom and accepting them as truths by experiencing myself. Examples are "All is one and everything is connected to one another" or "There is only you". They may seem very illogical, but you can appreciate their truth only by experiencing them.
    Those dont just seem logical to me, they are very logical. Once you understand holographics/fractals, then its not only logical but nothing else makes any sense. So, what seems logical all depends on what level of awareness we hold obviously. I do think that logic (order/patterns) eventually blend into chaos and the unknowable mystery. But that is way beyond the logic of the average human. I bet that high level angels do things that look nonsensical to other highly aware interdimensional beings/ETs.

    Godel, Escher and Bach is a fascinating book and Hofstedtler makes me feel like a moron. My god that guy is brilliant at what he does. lol

    Brilliant thought on the CIA and the modern art movement. haha. They probably are also behind a lot of those physicists publishing loads of magic math they pull out of their butts.

    Bill is absolutely right about the geometric relationships being universal in even the strangest of worlds. They can change the symbols and what not but the basic relationships are built up from singularity and im quite sure it cant be different. Once you scale up to more complicated levels of atoms, then I could see different configurations in different worlds, although even those seem to be based off sacred geometry. Perhaps it can be same same but different. lol

    I haven't looked into Godel's Theorem but that's a really fascinating line of thought to try and prove. Seriously, we need some brain power upgrades, it sucks realizing your limitations and seeing what the Godel's have achieved.
    Last edited by Merkaba360; 8th June 2021 at 18:41.

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    Default Re: Math has a "Fatal Flaw" (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem)

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by meat suit (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by gord (here)
    Roger Penrose explains Godel's incompleteness theorem in 3 minutes
    But not very clearly!
    yeah, not very clearly and he could have done that in 20 seconds as well.. more clearly...
    For anyone touching on this thread who's bewildered, here's the simple version.

    In math, true statements are almost always provable, and are proved. For instance, we can prove that 2+3 = 3+2. It's not just someone's theory! That's going be true throughout the universe, on every planet, for all time.

    And for those of you who remember Pythagoras' theorem (that in a right angled triangle with sides of length a, b and c, a2+b2=c2), we can prove that as well. The equation is always true.

    And so is the equation that the area of a circle is πr2, where r is the circle's radius. That's true, too, and we can prove that — for any circle, anywhere in the universe.

    But in 1931 Kurt Gödel proved — paradoxically! — that some statements in math are 100% true but can actually never be proved. No matter how smart you are. They're just totally unprovable.

    So, math is actually "incomplete", and can never be "completed". Not even by ETs with IQs of 400 who are a million years more advanced than us.

    That upset a GREAT many people. At first, mathematicians could hardly believe it. It's still disputed in some circles, but is now almost completely accepted.

    Gödel, meanwhile, suffered serious bouts of mental instability later in his life... which, one might wryly observe, might not have been surprising.

    Have you or others heard of JainPi. It basically asserts that Pi is wrong because it is calculate from lines. So, they found that Pi calculated from Phi (spirals) is slightly different. In other words, the Pi we use is good enough for most uses but fails with some astronomical calculations. I just looked into it a bit, but It wouldnt surprise me. Form is created from the womb of the feminine (circles/curves). So its would make more sense to derive Pi/circles from Phi and not lines, since it seems lines/linear are part of the illusion (like timelines).

    Linear seems more part of the objective world that is exact although as an idea. However, there is no perfect circle, and even in the symbolic world of ideas, it seems more subjective given Pi is an irrational number in which we never arrive due to infinite decimals - never completing precision.

    I'm envisioning Bill administering ET's a human IQ test, breaking the test. lol If they get one question wrong we all point fingers at them and laugh for being the alien dunce. haha
    Last edited by Merkaba360; 8th June 2021 at 18:52.

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    Default Re: Math has a "Fatal Flaw" (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem)

    The Zero Theorem is a nice sci-fi movie and shows how someone can get insane trying to tackle the mysteries of the universe, and of course there is real life cases where people got completely insane, I like math but not that much, if it shakes someone's core to the point of create some irreversible issue it can't be good.
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    Default Re: Math has a "Fatal Flaw" (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem)

    Quote Posted by palehorse (here)
    The Zero Theorem is a nice sci-fi movie and shows how someone can get insane trying to tackle the mysteries of the universe, and of course there is real life cases where people got completely insane, I like math but not that much, if it shakes someone's core to the point of create some irreversible issue it can't be good.
    • The Zero Theorem Trailer:

    Terry Gilliam on His Epic New Dystopian Film The Zero Theorem

    The writer of Doctor Parnassus reimagines the future in The Zero Theorem.

    • The Zero Theorem - Clip: The Kid Explains - At Cinemas March 14:

    • Uncovering The Zero Theorem with Terry Gilliam:


    A hugely talented but socially isolated computer operator is tasked by Management to prove the Zero Theorem: that the universe ends as nothing, rendering life meaningless. But meaning is what he already craves.



    • Weird, wise and wonderful.
    Terry Gilliam has never found it easy to make one of his downright weird films. Studio interference has almost invariably led to project delays, postponements, and outright cancellations, with his final cuts emerging bruised, bloodied and - more often than not - broken. Interestingly, The Zero Theorem suffers from next to none of the scuttlebutt that usually accompanies a Gilliam film. Instead, this dense, complex, thought- provoking odyssey of human existence and (un)happiness feels like pure Gilliam: odd, uncompromising, but - at its best - almost breathtakingly brilliant.

    In some not-so-distant, sparkly-bright dystopian future, brilliant and determinedly solitary mathematician Qohen Leth (Christoph Waltz) suffers through the tiny indignities of daily life. He's forced to leave the burnt-out church he calls home to report for work, where he crunches numbers for his clueless immediate supervisor Joby (David Thewlis). But all he wants is to stay close to his telephone, waiting for a call he believes will help him unravel the mysteries of the universe and his existence.

    When mysterious head honcho Management (a silver-haired Matt Damon) finally gives him leave to work from home, Qohen is assigned the impossible Zero Theorem, a mathematical conundrum that has defeated many a mathematician before him. To keep him from going completely around the bend, Management sends him company in the form of Bainsley (Mélanie Thierry), a nubile young woman with whom he forges an unexpected emotional connection; and Management's own genius teenage son Bob (Lucas Hedges).

    If you're looking for a plot that makes sense and progresses in logical fashion, The Zero Theorem is not the film for you. In Gilliam's movie, based on a loopy, mind-bending script by Pat Rushin, plot points are more often than not metaphors for the human condition. The script can be simultaneously literal and obtuse: Qohen lives in a hollowed-out church, a blindingly obvious symbol of the fading of traditional religion; he's waiting for a call - read: calling - that will free him from the humdrum banalities of a worker-bee's life.

    But that's also where the film's genius lies. It's an explosion of philosophical ideas, asking deep, difficult questions about happiness, humanity and hubris - often in the same scene. Few films and film-makers would dare to so boldly confront existential issues on this scale and to this depth. The titular Zero Theorem, after all, requires Qohen to prove that everything is nothing: that the entire universe, filled with people, ultimately has no meaning. Qohen's strange, isolated journey hints at some answers, but not anywhere near all of them.

    Gilliam could easily have failed on two counts: the seemingly stereotypical blonde love interest; and the annoyingly precocious teenage boy. But, within these archetypes, The Zero Theorem finds something fascinating to say. Bainsley starts out as a ditzy blonde dream girl, but winds up offering Qohen plenty of soul and an elusive, transient kind of eternity. Bob, too, is a whip-smart delight, a child more in tune with the silent beats and rhythms of the universe than any number of people older and purportedly wiser than him.

    The film would fail catastrophically without a leading man capable of handling the tragedy and comedy of Qohen Leth - a character who, in habitually referring to himself using the royal 'we' , is a metaphor for every human being that has ever been and will ever be. Waltz is more than up to the task. He is hilariously effective when called upon to wriggle into a skin-tight virtual-reality costume, and devastatingly heartbreaking in the moment when Qohen refuses a chance at freedom and happiness to stay locked into the dark, nihilistic world in which he lives.

    There are also a pair of wonderful supporting turns - slightly larger than cameos - from Damon and Tilda Swinton. The former clearly enjoyed his time working on The Brothers Grimm, one of Gilliam's most disastrous on-set experiences, and here, he provides a grim, mysterious counterpoint to Waltz's Cohen - the latter only appears to be impenetrable and tough to crack. Swinton, meanwhile, is a hoot as Dr. Shrink-Rom, Qohen's at-home, virtual psychiatrist, fumbling through their sessions with tons of blustery, false cheer.

    Perhaps most astounding of all is the fact that Gilliam made a film that looks so good - in its inventive, kitschy way - on a shoestring budget of US$8.5 million. That's pocket change for most Hollywood films, and there's no doubt that everyone involved took a huge pay-cut to make The Zero Theorem look as great as it does. The special effects are mostly wonderful, and the neon-coloured world through which the black-clad Qohen stalks practically bursts at the seams with detail and imagination.

    The Zero Theorem is emphatically not a film that will appeal to everyone. There are those who will find themselves incredibly annoyed by its philosophical navel-gazing, and others who might find Qohen's entire journey pointless and irredeemably self-involved. But, when it comes down to it, it's hard to deny the weird, wacky power of Gilliam's movie. The Zero Theorem so bravely grapples with big ideas and complicated metaphors that it's hard not to admire the director's great courage and even greater ambition.

    Did you know:
    • Trivia: In order to select the locations, Terry Gilliam used Google Earth: "I'd got most of the locations sorted out by using Google Earth before I first went to Romania. This is how we do location scouting these days
    • Goofs: When Qohen is sitting at his computer naked, he is wearing flesh colored underwear
    • QuotesQohen Leth: Nothing adds up.
      Joby: No. You've got it backwards, Qohen. Everything adds up to nothing, that's the point.
      Qohen Leth: What's the point?
      Joby: Exactly. What's the point of anything
    • Crazy credits: In memory of the great Richard D. Zanuck who kept the ball rolling
    IMBD
    torrent
    Last edited by ExomatrixTV; 12th June 2021 at 18:15.
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    Default Re: Math has a "Fatal Flaw" (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem)

    Quote Posted by ExomatrixTV (here)
    Quote Posted by palehorse (here)
    The Zero Theorem is a nice sci-fi movie and shows how someone can get insane trying to tackle the mysteries of the universe, and of course there is real life cases where people got completely insane, I like math but not that much, if it shakes someone's core to the point of create some irreversible issue it can't be good.
    • The Zero Theorem Trailer:

    Terry Gilliam on His Epic New Dystopian Film The Zero Theorem

    The writer of Doctor Parnassus reimagines the future in The Zero Theorem.

    • The Zero Theorem - Clip: The Kid Explains - At Cinemas March 14:

    • Uncovering The Zero Theorem with Terry Gilliam:


    A hugely talented but socially isolated computer operator is tasked by Management to prove the Zero Theorem: that the universe ends as nothing, rendering life meaningless. But meaning is what he already craves.



    • Weird, wise and wonderful.
    Terry Gilliam has never found it easy to make one of his downright weird films. Studio interference has almost invariably led to project delays, postponements, and outright cancellations, with his final cuts emerging bruised, bloodied and - more often than not - broken. Interestingly, The Zero Theorem suffers from next to none of the scuttlebutt that usually accompanies a Gilliam film. Instead, this dense, complex, thought- provoking odyssey of human existence and (un)happiness feels like pure Gilliam: odd, uncompromising, but - at its best - almost breathtakingly brilliant.

    In some not-so-distant, sparkly-bright dystopian future, brilliant and determinedly solitary mathematician Qohen Leth (Christoph Waltz) suffers through the tiny indignities of daily life. He's forced to leave the burnt-out church he calls home to report for work, where he crunches numbers for his clueless immediate supervisor Joby (David Thewlis). But all he wants is to stay close to his telephone, waiting for a call he believes will help him unravel the mysteries of the universe and his existence.

    When mysterious head honcho Management (a silver-haired Matt Damon) finally gives him leave to work from home, Qohen is assigned the impossible Zero Theorem, a mathematical conundrum that has defeated many a mathematician before him. To keep him from going completely around the bend, Management sends him company in the form of Bainsley (Mélanie Thierry), a nubile young woman with whom he forges an unexpected emotional connection; and Management's own genius teenage son Bob (Lucas Hedges).

    If you're looking for a plot that makes sense and progresses in logical fashion, The Zero Theorem is not the film for you. In Gilliam's movie, based on a loopy, mind-bending script by Pat Rushin, plot points are more often than not metaphors for the human condition. The script can be simultaneously literal and obtuse: Qohen lives in a hollowed-out church, a blindingly obvious symbol of the fading of traditional religion; he's waiting for a call - read: calling - that will free him from the humdrum banalities of a worker-bee's life.

    But that's also where the film's genius lies. It's an explosion of philosophical ideas, asking deep, difficult questions about happiness, humanity and hubris - often in the same scene. Few films and film-makers would dare to so boldly confront existential issues on this scale and to this depth. The titular Zero Theorem, after all, requires Qohen to prove that everything is nothing: that the entire universe, filled with people, ultimately has no meaning. Qohen's strange, isolated journey hints at some answers, but not anywhere near all of them.

    Gilliam could easily have failed on two counts: the seemingly stereotypical blonde love interest; and the annoyingly precocious teenage boy. But, within these archetypes, The Zero Theorem finds something fascinating to say. Bainsley starts out as a ditzy blonde dream girl, but winds up offering Qohen plenty of soul and an elusive, transient kind of eternity. Bob, too, is a whip-smart delight, a child more in tune with the silent beats and rhythms of the universe than any number of people older and purportedly wiser than him.

    The film would fail catastrophically without a leading man capable of handling the tragedy and comedy of Qohen Leth - a character who, in habitually referring to himself using the royal 'we' , is a metaphor for every human being that has ever been and will ever be. Waltz is more than up to the task. He is hilariously effective when called upon to wriggle into a skin-tight virtual-reality costume, and devastatingly heartbreaking in the moment when Qohen refuses a chance at freedom and happiness to stay locked into the dark, nihilistic world in which he lives.

    There are also a pair of wonderful supporting turns - slightly larger than cameos - from Damon and Tilda Swinton. The former clearly enjoyed his time working on The Brothers Grimm, one of Gilliam's most disastrous on-set experiences, and here, he provides a grim, mysterious counterpoint to Waltz's Cohen - the latter only appears to be impenetrable and tough to crack. Swinton, meanwhile, is a hoot as Dr. Shrink-Rom, Qohen's at-home, virtual psychiatrist, fumbling through their sessions with tons of blustery, false cheer.

    Perhaps most astounding of all is the fact that Gilliam made a film that looks so good - in its inventive, kitschy way - on a shoestring budget of US$8.5 million. That's pocket change for most Hollywood films, and there's no doubt that everyone involved took a huge pay-cut to make The Zero Theorem look as great as it does. The special effects are mostly wonderful, and the neon-coloured world through which the black-clad Qohen stalks practically bursts at the seams with detail and imagination.

    The Zero Theorem is emphatically not a film that will appeal to everyone. There are those who will find themselves incredibly annoyed by its philosophical navel-gazing, and others who might find Qohen's entire journey pointless and irredeemably self-involved. But, when it comes down to it, it's hard to deny the weird, wacky power of Gilliam's movie. The Zero Theorem so bravely grapples with big ideas and complicated metaphors that it's hard not to admire the director's great courage and even greater ambition.

    Did you know:
    • Trivia In order to select the locations, Terry Gilliam used Google Earth: "I'd got most of the locations sorted out by using Google Earth before I first went to Romania. This is how we do location scouting these days
    • GoofsWhen Qohen is sitting at his computer naked, he is wearing flesh colored underwear
    • QuotesQohen Leth: Nothing adds up.
      Joby: No. You've got it backwards, Qohen. Everything adds up to nothing, that's the point.
      Qohen Leth: What's the point?
      Joby: Exactly. What's the point of anything
    • Crazy creditsIn memory of the great Richard D. Zanuck who kept the ball rolling
    IMBD
    torrent

    Thanks for super elaborating on that.
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    A chaos to the sense, a Kosmos to the reason.

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    Default Re: Math has a "Fatal Flaw" (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem)

    The Big Bang Theory, like its name might suggest, caused a great splash upon its entry into the world of ideas. It immediately drew supporters who intuited the beauty and symmetry of the theory. It tied many loose ends together and unified the ungodly under a new banner. Finally god had been done away with, the universe ended as it began - and might just begin again! The entire universe was nothing more than froth in some backwater eddy of the multiverse, forever spewing forth realities, while simultaneously reabsorbing others.

    The True Reality had been found. Godel's Incompleteness Theory, like the Big Bang Theory, replaces concept with context by a clever reassignment of terms. In the big bang theory, the unimaginable vastness of the universe is condensed by slight-of-hand into a mere cone of probability - easily grasped as but a diaphragm currently in the expansion phase, but still reducible to a bubble of inconsequential size and limit. In Godel's world of incompleteness, the edges, the frontiers, of knowledge itself are limited, thereby reducing the universe to inconsequence by reason of koanic illogic. The emergence of paradox, or the conclusion in paradox, renders the entire universe moot.

    But what of a world that responds to thought, that creates by will, that acts in harmony, that is guided by love, and only knows what is true? How would a paradox exist in such a world? How can we exist there?

    We have gone astray. Our philosophies point to it, our science proves it, our religions illustrate it, and sadly our attitudes highlight it. Our thoughts are not in concert with reality and the resulting cacophony of unrelated and irreconcilable half truths that populate our minds has become chaotic and nonsensical.

    It is not mathematics that is flawed. It is our society, our future trajectory, and our minds that have been derailed by unseen and detrimental forces. The world is a far stranger place than even the most outlandish ideas in the mind of man. We have no true idea...
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

    Free will can only be as free as the mind that conceives it.

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    Lightbulb Re: Math has a "Fatal Flaw" (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem)

    • The Simplest Math Problem No One Can Solve:

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    • So this is one of the questions we can ask Aliens to prove they are really Aliens ... if they can solve it within seconds!
    cheers,
    John
    Last edited by ExomatrixTV; 5th August 2021 at 12:48.
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    Default Re: Math has a "Fatal Flaw" (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem)

    Thanks for the 3x+1 video. I actually managed to follow most of that. I'm good at general arithmetic and passed A-level maths, but I'm too right-brained to grasp the higher complexities of mathematics, which is damn shame because I find it (conceptually) fascinating.

    In a nutshell me at school:

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    Default Re: Math has a "Fatal Flaw" (Godel's Incompleteness Theorem)

    Quote Posted by Star Mariner (here)
    Thanks for the 3x+1 video. I actually managed to follow most of that. I'm good at general arithmetic and passed A-level maths, but I'm too right-brained to grasp the higher complexities of mathematics, which is damn shame because I find it (conceptually) fascinating.

    In a nutshell me at school:

    Attachment 47099

    What I love the most about "Unsolved Mysterious Complex Math Videos" is how they make visual representations using almost art-like features just like what you can see in 100s of "Mandelbrot Set Fractals" videos! Fractal Geometry are also used to make Games looking "more real" more natural to us.

    I wonder how visuals look like if they Tweak the "3x+1 (even-uneven)" formula like doing the "divide by 2" only on Prime Numbers or Golden Ratio Numbers or Fibonacci numbers

    cheers,
    John
    Last edited by ExomatrixTV; 5th August 2021 at 15:42.
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