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Thread: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

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    England Avalon Member Did You See Them's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    Gets my vote !

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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    Nice idea Ewan, If only we can afford to travel to meet and live with like minded people. I use to travel on workaways, capitalizing on my handyman skills. I now have a 2.4 hectare place on the mountains to keep me away from all the madness in the city. Still looking for like minded people. People who's willing to live off grid and eventually without money. Just finished tinkering with my first fully automatic egg incubator. Baby ducks soon

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    UK Avalon Member Brigantia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    Quote Posted by LoneWolf76 (here)
    Been trying to get something like this off the ground all year. Seems to be very difficult in the UK, although I know a few who've done it. Rachel Elnaugh from Dragon's Den has been instrumental in helping kickstart a few around the UK.
    Still working on it though, gotta have the right people first, the rest will follow.
    I think that it's England that's the problem as planning laws are very strict; you need planning permission to live permanently in a caravan, any other type of mobile home or what is classed as a 'temporary' home (such as a log cabin) and that is very rarely granted. They want people in houses and only gypsy/Romany communities have special status on this. I know that in Wales you have the right to live in a caravan on your own land or with the landowner's permission. The situation in Scotland looks complicated, I'm not yet fully awake to plough through this.

    Anyone remember the New Age travellers in the 1980s, and the Battle of the Beanfield? That just shows you the contempt that the authorities have for alternative lifestyles.

    There is a longstanding community in west Wales called Tipi Valley, founded in 1975 that had to apply for retrospective permission for the site; the Welsh authorities finally granted it, the (London-based) government ministers kept trying to overturn the decision but failed. Here's their website: https://www.diggersanddreamers.org.u...y/tipi-valley/

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    Scotland Avalon Member Ewan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    Thank you for all the responses.

    It did occur to me today that such a venture would be fraught with potential difficulties. Should just one person decide they had made a mistake and want out it could break the whole scheme. However legal means could be put in place to make that an unpalatable decision, the obvious negative to that path would make the scheme a less attractive one in the first place - if you know your investment looks a lot like a one-way street.

    Falling out with other people is the biggest risk to any such venture. Bill can correct me if I am wrong but I am sure the same thing happened to him when first settling in Ecuador. Bill?

    I also never considered maintenance in my initial excitement at the idea. Some form of income would be necessary in order to cover ongoing maintenance and, ideally, all bills such as tax, power and water. A glamping site as far away as possible from the main building might be a solution but not necessarily an attractive one.

    An alternative to a castle might be an old farm with over 100 acres. Provided planning permissions can be gained then building homes is a cheaper solution and each individual property can be sold separately to preserve the security of the venture.



    This particular example, pictured, would only be considered a summer home, but the websites states that by by widening and heightening the structure it can qualify as a permanent dwelling.

    If you have farmland you can grow things (and we have a heck of a knowledge base here on Avalon to guide us on things we don't already know collectively), you can sell excess produce, have a farm shop etc. All organic. There would be plenty hands on deck to do the work and may serve to win that elusive planning permissions - your business needs workers and the workers need accommodations.

    Also with farmland and space you have the option of more privacy, in a castle there is more chance of feeling on top of each other. That said, the size of those rooms in a castle could easily be converted into fairly private apartments.

    Ideal property would likely contain some woodland and river frontage with fishing rights.
    Last edited by Ewan; 9th June 2021 at 20:42.

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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    Quote Posted by Johan (Keyholder) (here)
    Excellent ideas Ewan!

    But how about this place... in nature, at the seaside, paradise (still even now I think)... and just a bit less expensive.
    And yes, it IS for sale! Harder to travel there though. But once there, you can swim with...WHALES!

    I was there before it was created (1985, 1990 and 2005), a fabulous place and friendly people.

    Have a look... especially the videos too!

    https://www.serenitybeaches.com/
    This is a really interesting topic. Im also looking into community living on the land. I have set out multiple fishing lines in my country. I used to feel really bound to the Netherlands but this is fading in very quick tempo. Mainly because my relationship with most of my family and mainstream friends is deteriorating in very quick fashion because of everything thats happening.

    P.S. This castle must be haunted if you can buy it for 1.5 mil.

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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    Foundation for Intentional Community is an international coalition of intentional communities, and is a great resource as well for people wanting to start one.
    See: https://www.ic.org/directory/
    Each breath a gift...
    _____________

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    Scotland Avalon Member Ewan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    We could also all go and join Bill in Ecuador.

    (Imagines Bill putting his head in his hands and muttering, 'No, please no!')

    39-acres



    13.5 acres



    23.5 acres



    Caveat/Small Print
    Please note: In each location above the main property belongs to the finder, namely ME, Ewan. Parcels of land 2-3 acres in area can be purchased for a mere $50k-65k!



    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Mypos (here)
    Quote Posted by Johan (Keyholder) (here)
    Excellent ideas Ewan!

    But how about this place... in nature, at the seaside, paradise (still even now I think)... and just a bit less expensive.
    And yes, it IS for sale! Harder to travel there though. But once there, you can swim with...WHALES!

    I was there before it was created (1985, 1990 and 2005), a fabulous place and friendly people.

    Have a look... especially the videos too!

    https://www.serenitybeaches.com/
    This is a really interesting topic. Im also looking into community living on the land. I have set out multiple fishing lines in my country. I used to feel really bound to the Netherlands but this is fading in very quick tempo. Mainly because my relationship with most of my family and mainstream friends is deteriorating in very quick fashion because of everything thats happening.

    P.S. This castle must be haunted if you can buy it for 1.5 mil.
    No problem, Brigantia is going to be the cleaner. She will cast it out in double quick fashion.

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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    Maybe let's go back to basics, you already live in a community right? You already live in a 'property' ... This doesn't have to be large scaled to work. Everywhere has it's good and it's bad, choose what you would like to focus on... Starting small and sustainable is the key. Sometimes it just takes a 'warrior' who knows where this is all going to get things started.

    Do you know your neighbours? (this isn't inferred at anyone here, just a generalisation) if not why not. Just saying hello sometimes and offering a 'cuppa' is the start. The wild haired fouled mouthed 'one' might be a 'lamb' once they get talking they just needed a kind person to converse with... A generalisation I know , but sometimes being brave enough to confront the unknown is all it takes. x

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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    One pitfalls for the succes of intentional communities is having focus on "legalities" Not saying that we don't consider it, what I am saying is that to have the least possible attention to it. Keep the government and its damn laws out of your community as much as you could. And let the laws of nature, the laws of the heart govern your community. If you want a community that care for each member, go out there and take care of everyone in your community. Its a lot more efficient to teach people by example rather than words. "Be the change you wanted to see"

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    Quote Posted by Ewan (here)
    Falling out with other people is the biggest risk to any such venture. Bill can correct me if I am wrong but I am sure the same thing happened to him when first settling in Ecuador. Bill?
    Yes, I'd agree that's absolutely the biggest risk. And yes, this is exactly what happened here in Ecuador quite a few years back.

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    UK Avalon Member Brigantia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    Quote Posted by Ewan (here)
    P.S. This castle must be haunted if you can buy it for 1.5 mil.
    Quote Posted by Ewan (here)
    No problem, Brigantia is going to be the cleaner. She will cast it out in double quick fashion.
    I'll set the cat on it - she's so feral and fierce that it'll go and haunt somewhere else.

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    UK Avalon Member Mike Gorman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    This has been on my mind a lot recently, the idea of a remote-ish community in a characterful location, where people can contribute their life-skills and trades/professional chops e.t.c
    There are an amazing number of huge properties out there, abandonned in some cases through the attrition of family lines reaching their natural end (all kinds of reasons, but it happens)
    and deceased estates which are never claimed...all kinds!
    If people can combine financial resources entire colonies of like-minded folks could do this, and those without substantial finances can offer other qualities, and skill-sets. This could be an answer to quietly disappear to escape the insanity and oppressive social orders being manifested: this could lead to new forms of feudal/tenant societies(!) WARFARE with the billionaire communities(!)
    But in the short term, it could be a good solution.

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    UK Avalon Member Brigantia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    Quote Posted by Mike Gorman (here)
    There are an amazing number of huge properties out there, abandonned in some cases through the attrition of family lines reaching their natural end (all kinds of reasons, but it happens)
    and deceased estates which are never claimed...all kinds!
    That would never happen in England sadly as there is so much land pressure; though a couple of years ago the council in Liverpool were offering houses in a street for £1000 if the buyer would make the necessary improvements, but that was very much an exception.

    One thing that I heard about was 1 euro houses in Italy in certain municipalities. From the time I spent there I learned that Italians don't want old properties, they will even have a house built rather than buy an old one. In fact they have a horror of anything secondhand, an attitude that probably comes from the dire poverty experienced by many until the economic boom of the 1960s. They equate used stuff with poverty.

    So, there are many old properties lying empty in Italy.

    Here's a website with links to Italian 1 euro houses, and also links to some in France and Croatia. One thing I would warn anyone is that Italian bureaucracy is a nightmare, though you can often find expats who will guide you through the maze.
    https://1eurohouses.com

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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    South of spain has some DEALS. And theres many people around there who are preety much autonomous already. (they grow their own fruits and veggies, kill their own porks as a town tradition...)
    Low law pressure, low taxes, prices for stuff are a joke...

    The province of Huelva, sierra de aracena, and places around it.

    Obviously not castles, but they have most of what you need to live, and plenty of sun, water and land.

    Check it out!



    https://www.milanuncios.com/venta-de...r-45094048.htm

    https://www.idealista.com/inmueble/84938943/

    https://www.idealista.com/inmueble/90743016/

    And this was on first glance, I'm sure cheaper and "loster" ones can be found ^^
    Last edited by I am B; 19th June 2021 at 15:16.

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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    The properties posted by I am B look so good! but if you don't like the heat then Russia is offering a free hectare in Siberia to anyone who can last 5 years there!

    Quote Law on the Far Eastern Hectare
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The Law on the Far Eastern Hectare, or the Federal Law of May 1, 2016, No. 119 FL,[1] is a law by Russian President Vladimir Putin to give 1 hectare, or 2.5 acres of free land in the Russian Far East to Russian citizens and foreign nationals as long as they live there for five years.[2][3]

    According to some observers, more Ukrainians and Belarusians will settle in Siberia than Russians themselves. However, the plan only allows Russian Citizens to own the land. Foreigners can join the program, but cannot own the land until 5 years after they have immigrated to Russia- in order to dissuade drug traffickers from abusing the program. Consolidated groups (of 20 lots minimum) will also be provided with basic infrastructure. [4] Despite restrictions on foreigners owning land, Old Believers from abroad have successfully applied in groups for farming space. As of December 2017, more than 107,000 people have applied and 40,000 people have become owners of the land.[5]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_on...astern_Hectare


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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    Quote Posted by I am B (here)
    South of spain has some DEALS. And theres many people around there who are preety much autonomous already. (they grow their own fruits and veggies, kill their own porks as a town tradition...)
    Low law pressure, low taxes, prices for stuff are a joke...

    The province of Huelva, sierra de aracena, and places around it.

    Obviously not castles, but they have most of what you need to live, and plenty of sun, water and land.

    Check it out!



    https://www.milanuncios.com/venta-de...r-45094048.htm

    https://www.idealista.com/inmueble/84938943/

    https://www.idealista.com/inmueble/90743016/

    And this was on first glance, I'm sure cheaper and "loster" ones can be found ^^
    I was looking at rural properties in Spain but discovered, since the Brits Brexit'd, we are only allowed to live in Spain for 6 months in a year. There are probably ways around it. 'Loster', I like that word, exactly what many of us are seeking I suspect.

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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    the book can be downloaded free at
    https://ca1lib.org/book/5321142/b6b12d

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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    Many communities failed for various reason, ownership is one of the reasons, when money and ideals get in the way, people change, I know one case where the title deed was in the name of 1 person and the rest of the group raised an eye brown because they shared the money in order to purchase the property. The simple solution for that is to incorporate the real state and each person have a number of shares in accordance with their financial contribution or based on some other criteria, I heard one case in Australia and another in Paraguay, it may or may not be the correct way to deal with that, anyway the land must be registered in the land office and duties must be paid yearly in order to keep it "legal", there is no escape to that, unless the place is totally isolated with no road access, not in the books of the land registrar, just wild or public land would fall into that category (national parks for example).

    In my humble opinion there is some ways of build a community legally minimizing troubles:

    - One way would be to incorporate with shareholders, this way everyone knows who own what.
    - The other way would be also to incorporate but instead of shareholders, the owner just lease the plot to the community member, leases can go up to 90 years in some countries, I believe these laws are very similar in all countries, the leasees would have the right to build on the surface of that land and use the land as s/he wish. The corporate owner owns only the land and nothing else. Mobile homes come to mind, those modern dome tents, or coodo style (https://www.coodo.com/) or anything actually even those amazing cob houses.

    In both cases need to be incorporated and have risks of dissolution and must be overthink in order to mitigate as much problems as possible when getting involved in such a thing.

    My personal experience: I took the solo way, me and my family we have a piece of land we bought about a decade ago, we have been working on it sometimes (we go slow on our own time), it is not a community in the real sense, it is not incorporated as a company, it is just a personal property, but it is off grid (no public water or electricity, closest town is about 45km), we do have a local village which is some sort of community, but each and every one has its own land in their own names, some of them uses the land for generations and never bothered to register it properly (I don't know if it will be an issue in the future or not, the world is changing fast and new tyranic laws popping up every day), but they are there for a long time and hardly anyone will mess with them I believe. What I mean by that is: there is always ways around, and sometimes better to be on your own doing things.

    Obviously some common rules (no rulers, no bosses, no madman), would have to be created and an open assembly to discuss the issues periodically must be stabelished as soon the community even started, evebody should have the right to vote and give their opinions, no ranks, no bull****, no hierarchy, just the anarch way of solving problems fits much better for communities than anything else, after all, people joining such a community has the sense how freedom works, we are talking about people with a higher level of conciousness, and it would be easy to spot crooks trying to "infiltrate" for whatever reason.

    I do believe in community and I would join one, no doubt, but all the legalities must be clear in the title or contract, there is scammers out there.
    --
    A chaos to the sense, a Kosmos to the reason.

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    Philippines Avalon Member
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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    perhaps we can learn a thing or two from the Hippie communes. They all seem to thrive at first and then they die off. One thing that I am aware off is that the TPTB dont like anything outside of their control. "Sabotage" is something we have to look into. We have to learn to safeguard our community from it.

    This seem to be the case for this hippie commune and many other


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    Belgium Moderator Johan (Keyholder)'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Pooling resources and knowledge: An alternative escape. UK.

    Creating a community as proposed is a good idea. Yet, there are many "pitfalls", some have been highlighted here already.

    While it is not so easy to decide on joining a community, whether a PA one or another one, I thought that it would be a good idea to "start smaller", meaning organize get-togethers for a week or so in different locations. Affordable and for PA-members. On August 13th 2019 I made even a thread about it. 1 (one) person found it a very good idea. I never got any reactions why this was not possible to realise (it was not expensive, it could be done just about anywhere, and it would bring us together). And maybe, just maybe, it would create opportunities to brainstorm about the potential of a PA-community.

    A copy of what I wrote, below (it was, then, in the Members Only section):

    Gatherings for Avalonians.

    PA is like an oasis in a world that gets more complex every day and for many if not most of us to survive in this type of world takes courage and perseverance, in every possible domain. We are lucky to have a place like PA is now, today.

    But where will it be tomorrow, in three months or a few years?

    There are so many threads on the forum about what may/could happen with freedom of speech, information,… and the censoring of the internet. It may be just a matter of time. There is the whole discussion about copyright versus accessible information. There is GDPR. And lots of other issues that come into play.

    That is the way it looks like, to me at least. Hopefully we have many years coming, in which we can get easily to ‘this oasis’.

    But as Caliban wrote in a post 5 days ago:

    Quote ” It also has an inherent limit -- it's in our minds, or the cloud, or whatever. What it's not is Face-to-Face. Either we get together, as the Occupy crowd did--which by the way was not left or right or gender this or that--or nothing's really going to happen. Something has to break the ice where we start gathering together again. We need a carnival atmosphere, parties, potlatches, something like that. Get off the machines and listen and look at each other. Maybe something like that could catch fire. Where we start to forget these people and structures even exist.”
    That was in Christian’s thread about the “Information Wars” (please read it as background info if you have the time).

    It, being the internet. And I think Caliban is right. We best can prepare for a time where the internet is either way more limited (not as “free” as now) or not available anymore to most of us.

    So, where carnival atmosphere and parties can be fun, it is the Face-to-Face, the physical gatherings (like the one in Laughlin earlier this year, next month a smaller one in Malta, the proposed one in Ecuador…) that we should think about.

    I do realize that there are for many of us “constraints”. Maybe money (very often the case), time (also quite often so), responsibilities towards family, job, and others. Maybe health-issues can prohibit some. Or the impossibility to get a visa. There are other reasons as well.

    But for those amongst us that càn make an effort, I would plea to get an initiative started. And I will give an example below, of what may be possible.

    What should be the requirements for an optimal place to get together?

    Example for EUROPE

    Airport nearby that can be reached from a large number of (international) cities.
    In or as close to nature as possible.
    Quiet surroundings.
    Enough rooms for 8-16 people (or more), possibly 2 sharing a room.
    Not too far away from a major airport (1.5-2 hours max).
    Easy to reach (car, public transport….)
    Enough facilities: kitchen, large room(s) for meetings,…
    Total cost per person (for a week) between 300 € and 350 €, this is including a return flight, food (3 meals), room and facilities, local transport (only thing not included would be personal spending money).

    Feel free to add, what is your idea? What should be added?

    How could this be achieved? It could be organized in almost any country in Europe (later on, elsewhere in the world too, but that may be more costly). Europe is cost-effective, because one can fly return from almost every country to any other country for under 50-100 Euro return. This way I have taken flights to Dublin, London Stanstead, Rome, Venice and Torino (Italy), Carcassonne and Nice (France), Riga (Latvia), Stockholm, Barcelona, Chania and Thessaloniki (Greece), Krakow (Poland), Budapest (Hungary) and I could go on. All from Brussels. This can be done from (almost) “anywhere” to “anywhere”, provided one books ahead of time and flying in midweek (Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday).

    A practical example. Staying 7 nights, Tuesday October 15th-Tuesday October 22nd, here:

    http://www.ferme-chateau-laneffe.com...gites/?lang=en

    This place is about half an hour drive away from Brussels-Charleroi airport. There are several combinations (gites) possible and for a week, the cost would be approximately 120 € per person (depending on how many people being there ànd sharing of a room).
    Possible activities in the area: hiking, horseback riding, biking, kayaking, visiting an artisanal brewery, chocolate making place, heritage sites visits, carting, and more.

    Food: 70 € p.p. for the week, having three good meals a day.

    Sharing of transportation: 50 € p.p. for the week (can include pick-up from the airport and some visits by car). I can use my own car plus one or two rental cars would be needed.

    Return flight with Ryanair: example from Barcelona Girona to Brussels Charleroi leaving Oct 15th at 6.25 and return leaving Brussels Charleroi to Barcelona Girona on Oct 22nd at 8.50 for under 30 € (traveling light, additional luggage is rather expensive with Ryanair).

    Many other similar routes are possible. While 30 € for a return flight is very low indeed, 60-80 € is more realistic, but it depends when it is booked too.

    Next year March, April or May is probably more realistic then mid-October this year. It could be done though. If at least 8 Avalonians would like to go ahead for second half of October, I will organize it. Otherwise, later on.

    This way, the total cost for the week would be around 320 €, which I think most of us can afford.

    Besides the campfire, walks in nature, good chats, getting to know fellow Avalonians, … this type of get-togethers would also offer ways to explore what we all can do in a practical way to make PA grow beyond “the internet”. Anything can be possible if we put our minds (and hearts) in it. Totally open for suggestions and discussions.

    Other venues that can be considered for such weeks (just a few ideas):

    Crete (Greece)
    Carcassonne area/Cathar country (France)
    Canary Islands (Spain)
    Malta
    Algarve (Portugal)
    Transylvania (Romania)
    Wicklow Mountains near Dublin (Ireland)
    Scottish Highlands (Scotland/UK)
    Zakopane (Poland)
    Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania
    Balaton Lake (Hungary)
    And so many others….

    While Europe is the easiest continent to organize this (cheap flights), it may be possible – given time – to organize this on other continents as well. But it may be more costly. Personally I think that North America and Australia/NZ may be more expensive and Latin America and Asia less expensive. But, you first have to get there of course. And transcontinental flights aren’t cheap.

    It may be an idea for Avalonians from the USA/Australia/South Africa… to come over for 3-4 consecutive weeks (in Europe). Having a week in Crete, France, Ireland and Poland for instance. That would be around 1400 €. Add the return flight and maybe one could have a month in Europe, for under 2000 €. Just thinking out loud here. It’s still expensive but maybe doable for some.

    Important! This is NOT a “business”, the idea is NOT to make any money of it (quite clear that at this price it would not be possible), but the idea is to create opportunities to get together in real life and work out a better future yet for PA, besides the forum on the internet. I checked that this type of initiative does not violate the forum rules. However, we may pay 20-30 € each (for the week) to put aside for – eventually – inviting Bill to come over and attend, paying all his costs. It would depend how often these gatherings would happen and how many would attend, to realize this.

    We would need to know who is coming (identity), to make everything safe. Therefore I have put this idea in the “Members” section, but Mods, feel free to put it in another place on the forum. While spouse/partner could/would be welcome to come along, it is NOT the idea to organize “cheap vacations”. Of course a lot of fun and leisure time can be part of the week, but meeting fellow Avalonians ànd working on a potential future for PA IRL (“in real life”) should come first I think.


    I am volunteering to organize the first gathering in Belgium, if enough people (I would say 8 at least) plan to attend. There is no real maximum.

    Everything is open for discussion. I believe we all have personal strengths and talents and if and when we put these to good use within the PA-environment, a lot can be achieved.

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