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Thread: Turmoil in Cuba

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    United States Avalon Member onawah's Avatar
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    Default Turmoil in Cuba

    Uprising in Cuba
    Hannity: Another lie from 'gutless' Joe

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    "Sean Hannity reacts to the uprising Cuba seen this weekend."


    Marco Rubio 'embarrasses' Biden into answering questions on Cuba
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    "Florida Republican discusses the president's response to Cuban freedom protests on 'Hannity' "
    Last edited by onawah; 13th July 2021 at 06:34.
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    Exclamation Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    • Cuba's Communist Regime: The Beginning Of The End:
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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    I wonder how Cuba would fare, if the U.S. were to finally lift its 60 year embargo on those people that we claim to care so much for? That is after all the goal of these things, make the people miserable enough, for long enough, and they will rise up and do the job of overthrowing the country for them.

    It never works but we keep on doing it to countries (Iran and Venezuela being two other notables) who have governments that the U.S. government doesn't like. And when conditions deteriorate as expected, they blame that government, call them evil, murderous, terrorists, the list goes on and on.

    I'm hearing a lot in right wing circles, as above, that the embargo doesn't even matter, Hannity won't even mention it like it doesn't even exist. So the question is then why have it at all if it's irrelevant?
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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    I wonder how Cuba would fare, if the U.S. were to finally lift its 60 year embargo on those people that we claim to care so much for? That is after all the goal of these things, make the people miserable enough, for long enough, and they will rise up and do the job of overthrowing the country for them.

    It never works but we keep on doing it to countries (Iran and Venezuela being two other notables) who have governments that the U.S. government doesn't like. And when conditions deteriorate as expected, they blame that government, call them evil, murderous, terrorists, the list goes on and on.

    I'm hearing a lot in right wing circles, as above, that the embargo doesn't even matter, Hannity won't even mention it like it doesn't even exist. So the question is then why have it at all if it's irrelevant?
    We can look at other country that was devastated by Us sanctions in the same way as Cuba, but, once the sanctions were removed, it has been recovering, without having to change much their ways of government or ideologies
    Quote Vietnam’s GDP expanded 5.64 percent in the first half of the year, marking a jump from 1.82 percent in the same period a year ago
    https://www.vietnam-briefing.com/new...-concern.html/
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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    Well, Cuba can trade with virtually any other country it pleases. And it does. Even US allies. So there's really no excuse for the conditions there.

    The US embargo certainly doesn't help matters, but it isn't responsible for them either. Not primarily anyway.

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Well, Cuba can trade with virtually any other country it pleases. And it does. Even US allies. So there's really no excuse for the conditions there.

    The US embargo certainly doesn't help matters, but it isn't responsible for them either. Not primarily anyway.
    You sure about that Mike? Empire shows no mercy to those who defy it, or refuse to play ball. Here are just two quick examples out of many:

    Quote A Ban on Subsidiary Trade-Beginning in 1992, the Cuban Democracy Act imposed a ban on subsidiary trade with Cuba. This ban has severely constrained Cuba’s ability to import medicines and medical supplies from third-country sources. Moreover, recent corporate buyouts and mergers between major U.S. and European pharmaceutical companies have further reduced the number of companies permitted to do business with Cuba.
    Quote Shipping-Since 1992, the embargo has prohibited ships from loading or unloading cargo in U.S. ports for 180 days after delivering cargo to Cuba. This provision has strongly discouraged shippers from delivering medical equipment to Cuba. Consequently shipping costs have risen dramatically and further constricted the flow of food, medicines, medical supplies and even gasoline for ambulances. From 1993 to 1996, Cuban companies spent an additional $8.7 million on shipping medical imports from Asia, Europe and South America rather than from the neighboring United States.
    https://medicc.org/ns/documents/The_...on_in_Cuba.pdf

    They're not still driving cars from the 1950's, and constantly scrambling to scrounge up spare parts for decades old X-Ray machines, because of their form of government.

    Vietnam for example is full blown Communist, why are they thriving if this is the case... It's a decades old, and still running drumbeat of a foreign policy propaganda machine aided by a complicit U.S. media, that makes this appear to be so.
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    And more lightning in the hand

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Well, Cuba can trade with virtually any other country it pleases. And it does. Even US allies. So there's really no excuse for the conditions there.

    The US embargo certainly doesn't help matters, but it isn't responsible for them either. Not primarily anyway.
    You sure about that Mike? Empire shows no mercy to those who defy it, or refuse to play ball. Here are just two quick examples out of many:

    Quote A Ban on Subsidiary Trade-Beginning in 1992, the Cuban Democracy Act imposed a ban on subsidiary trade with Cuba. This ban has severely constrained Cuba’s ability to import medicines and medical supplies from third-country sources. Moreover, recent corporate buyouts and mergers between major U.S. and European pharmaceutical companies have further reduced the number of companies permitted to do business with Cuba.
    Quote Shipping-Since 1992, the embargo has prohibited ships from loading or unloading cargo in U.S. ports for 180 days after delivering cargo to Cuba. This provision has strongly discouraged shippers from delivering medical equipment to Cuba. Consequently shipping costs have risen dramatically and further constricted the flow of food, medicines, medical supplies and even gasoline for ambulances. From 1993 to 1996, Cuban companies spent an additional $8.7 million on shipping medical imports from Asia, Europe and South America rather than from the neighboring United States.
    https://medicc.org/ns/documents/The_...on_in_Cuba.pdf

    They're not still driving cars from the 1950's, and constantly scrambling to scrounge up spare parts for decades old X-Ray machines, because of their form of government.

    Vietnam for example is full blown Communist, why are they thriving if this is the case... It's a decades old, and still running drumbeat of a foreign policy propaganda machine aided by a complicit U.S. media, that makes this appear to be so.

    No, it's not just their form of government, though that plays a major role. It's also incompetent leadership, from the top down. But perhaps the leadership wouldn't be so incompetent if it was democratically elected. After all, where's the motivation to do right by the people when you're never held responsible?

    Yes the cars are from the 50's and a bag of rice costs $200 or something. And that's kind of my point. One could expect the embargo to have an impact, but not to the extent it has, regardless of all it's tentacles. The country is in shambles. The Cuban government, despite the US embargo, still has more than enough wiggle room to at least provide their people with a reasonable standard of living. And they've failed miserably

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Well, Cuba can trade with virtually any other country it pleases. And it does. Even US allies. So there's really no excuse for the conditions there.

    The US embargo certainly doesn't help matters, but it isn't responsible for them either. Not primarily anyway.
    Sure Cuba, you can trade with anyone you want! *IF they want to trade with you of course

    On a separate meeting later on "Listen here pals, if anyone of you trades with Cuba, we're going to break your knees, you have been warned"

    Later on: "Oh, but no one wants to trade with Cuba, must be because Communism and failed government"

    That pretty much explains the strategy to hurt as much as possible, without being the source of the hurting, or problem

    Same happens in Iran and Venezuela by the way. Remember the oil tankers that suddenly disappeared on their way from Iran to Venezuela? And then later it was found the US military had confiscated them, and sold the oil! That's just plain robbery

    And as said, if the sanctions do nothing, the just lift them and let's see. Most of the world agrees to lift them, then why not just do that? Let them fall on their own, if that's what's going to happen anyway

    And Vietnam is starting to do better than some Latin American countries that are full capitalists, without giving up on Communism, so that's definitely not the problem that kept them in misery for so long. The only thing that changed is that the sanctions were removed

    ETA: The only reason some trading is allowed is because otherwise it would become obvious who and how the sanctions are killing people, if hundreds of thousands were to start dying all over Cuba. So it's a game of keeping them alive, but suffering as much as possible, so they can rebel and ask for external help. The people are being used in such a way that they go through hell, just so they can claim for it to stop, but no use for dead people, so let them survive a bit

    Just give them the chance to prove themselves without any handicaps, if they will go down, then that's what will happen anyway, just let them try, but it's obvious that's not the end goal
    Last edited by Malisa; 24th July 2021 at 03:53.
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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    Russia sends 88 tonnes of aid to Cuba, and Mexico plans to send a few more, including medical aid, like the syringes they desperately need but the US gov has blocked them from buying

    https://www.reuters.com/world/americ...ry-2021-07-24/

    Meanwhile, some government officials in the US claim to be "very worried" about Cuban, so they apply more sanctions in response to the failed attempt at yet another coup in Cuba, but send basically 0 help in any other way

    NEWS: Turns out that the protests were planned and executed from within the US by Rosa Maria Paya, who has been exposed as the person paying desperate people in Cuba to go protest. But as usual, this won't be on your news
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar%C3...%C3%A1_Acevedo

    She created an organization that revolves entirely around hurting Cubans as much as possible, in order to cause upraising. She also built the entire campaign we saw days ago, and then disappeared from view after people in Cuba turned against her and marched in favor of the current Cuban government. Turns out that people once paid, and once learning they won't get paid again, march against the "client", and she was not able to handle it and had to take a step back. That's why very suddenly, protests dried up in Cuba

    She is a religious fundamentalist, willing to sacrifice as much people as needed in order to take revenge over the death of her father, which she blames on the Cuban government. She never proved it in any way, but she claims they killed him somehow, even if he died in a car crash. We may never know the truth, but this person is crazy and nothing excuses causing the death/suffering of thousands of innocents just so you can get revenge. As usual, fundamentalists are the perfect tool
    Last edited by Malisa; 25th July 2021 at 04:55.
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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    Very ironically, there are current protests in Paris, and people getting arrested after clashes between protesters and the police. I'm still waiting to hear the US government asking for regime change, and sanctioning top level government officials because of cops detaining/repressing protesters. Something must be done against that repressive French government, right? Actually i am not waiting, it will never happen
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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Very ironically, there are current protests in Paris, and people getting arrested after clashes between protesters and the police. I'm still waiting to hear the US government asking for regime change, and sanctioning top level government officials because of cops detaining/repressing protesters. Something must be done against that repressive French government, right? Actually i am not waiting, it will never happen
    The only time I've ever seen the U.S. get really upset with France, was when they refused to go along with the invasion of Iraq back in '03. Anyone remember the ridiculous bill passed that changed the name of french fries to freedom fries LOL? And soon they showed how deeply they cared about the Iraqi people, by lovingly bombing the living s**t out of their country, turning it upside down/inside out, and killing hundreds of thousands of them.

    Merica cares

    There are often massive protests at any given time around the world at any given time, including our very own just last summer, and France 2 years ago, but that's different...

    The U.S. government only really cares about one big thing so far as foreign policy is concerned, full spectrum world domination. If you're on our side, we'll overlook anything and everything, just look at our good buds the Saudi royals, who still have women's rights activists in jail, publicly behead people for things like adultery, drug use, sorcery etc. - yet we continuously lend them every aid for the ongoing genocide in Yemen, and in spreading their radical Wahabism throughout the world to suit both our needs.

    But take your ball and go home as Cuba did in '59, as Iran did in '53, or Venezuela did in '98, and you and your people had best stand the f**k by until you come back around to our way of thinking, and let us continue enriching ourselves at your expense.

    This is the standard mantra for countries not in near lockstep: "U.S. good/China Bad - U.S. good/Russia bad - U.S. good/Cuba bad - U.S. good/Venezuela bad - U.S. good/Syria bad - U.S. good/Libya bad - U.S. good/Iraq bad - U.S. good/Iran bad - U.S. good/Afghanistan bad.

    Did I miss any?

    Most of South America is in our hip pocket now, currently anyway, so they're pretty much good to go.

    Unless...

    Getting back to Cuba. What would happen if we did ease, or even eliminate the blockade, and they slowly but surely begin to flourish? Well we can never ever take the chance, because that would blow the "Capitalism good/Socialism" bad narrative, clean out of the water.
    Last edited by Gracy; 25th July 2021 at 14:44.
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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    It's not that ironic that the US doesn't care what's going on in France. If France were a communist island a mere 500 miles off its shores, it would care alot more. And for obvious reasons. Any American politician would freely admit that.

    Capitalist "good" and socialist "bad" isn't a narrative. It's a reality. You cannot, with any kind of intellectual honesty, even begin to compare the 2.

    Human history (dating way back, not just a hundred years) has been one long game of Empire. The US didn't invent this game of Empire. And the US didn't invent the game of meddling. But having emerged as a world power quite quickly, it's obliged to play those games to not just maintain it's position in the world, but to survive. If the US were merely seeking world domination, I'd say it was doing a pretty poor job at it. It's policies and behaviors, both legal and not so legal, are every bit as defensive as they are offensive. And they are no more diabolical than those of most other countries who are doing the exact same thing.

    You seem to be arguing that we care more about our position in the world than we do humanitarianism. And the answer is, of course we do! Our values and our way of life have to be preserved, firstly, before we can hope to encourage others to adopt them

    Of course we swing and miss sometimes! Freedom fries, OUCH. Very embarrassing, yes. The mess in Iraq, also very embarrassing. And of course there are others. We will never be immune from corruption. But you have to consider the picture in its totality.

    As far as Cuba is concerned, it's important to consider the history between the 2 nations. Castro came around in the late 50's or early 60's, took over, slaughtering all political dissidents. And then he went around and nationalized all business, including US business, on the island. Just stole our sh!t. So he got off to a bad start with us! How willing would you be to help people who just stole all your sh!t?

    I don't know who our president was then, but I believe he put some version of the embargo in place. And that's how it began.

    Of course the then U.S.S.R. sent missiles to Cuba, resulting in the Cuban missile crisis and all that. And it didn't help when Cuba shot down a couple of our planes in the late 90's..planes that were flying in international waters I believe

    They have an inept government. They have a failed socialist system. And they've been ruled by incompetent dictators. The Cuban citizens are prevented from expressing themselves politically, artistically, economically. It's a disaster. Cuba is one big prison. A gulag. You have to escape if you want to leave. It's run by brutal thugs. That's why it's in the state it's in today, mainly.

    How much would conditions improve if we lifted the embargo? I don't think too much, because it's so ineptly run and saturated with corruption. It would be like giving a bunch of broke drug addicts several million dollars. They don't need money and supplies as much as they need a total makeover, in my view. If they'd agree to the makeover, it would be my hope that we'd end the embargo.
    Last edited by Mike; 26th July 2021 at 01:55.

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    You seem to be arguing that we care more about our position in the world than we do humanitarianism. And the answer is, of course we do! Our values and our way of life have to be preserved, firstly, before we can hope to encourage others to adopt them
    I don't think i need to quote more than this, , even if could write an entire book about all the other misconceptions, half truths, narratives and selective history rewriting i can see

    First: "Our values and our way of life have to be preserved". What about the values of other's, those are not worth anything? To preserver your values, you must destroy others? Then those values are not as valuable as you think, if to preserve them you must kill indiscriminately around the world

    Second: "before we can hope to encourage others to adopt them". But nobody asked to be forcefully "converted".... Should be personal choice to follow... And the use of "encourage" is incorrect here, as a hard historical line of facts can prove easily, it should be "before we demand and enforce others to adopt them, one way or another, or else"

    You are selectively ignoring hundreds of historical facts about Cuba, specially about the Castro revolution and the true nature of the initial refugees in Miami. It's like the very minimal version used to explain newcomers so they follow the narrative. And that's disappointing, very honestly, because the full historical truth is not hard to reach out there, it's on the web

    This thread is just going to keep in circles like it just happened, unless real research and analysis of the facts and evidence is done, going back to the 'official narrative' for arguments is pointless
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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    https://news.un.org/en/story/2021/06/1094612

    I have three questions, which requires analysis before replying

    1. If the Cuban embargo, doesn't exist, as i keep seeing people mentioning all over the place, then why 184 countries in the UN votes in favor of lifting it? Are they dumb? Don't they have capable people that understands how the embargo is affecting people on Cuba? What's going on in the UN then?

    2. If 184 countries voted "Yes" and only 2 voted "No", and the embargo remains, then is the UN useless?

    3. "A total of 184 countries on Wednesday voted in favour of a resolution to demand the end of the US economic blockade on Cuba, for the 29th year in a row, with the United States and Israel voting against." In an total honest way, what do you think this means? Democracy? or DemoCrazy
    Last edited by Malisa; 26th July 2021 at 03:14.
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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    I don't know why these things have to be pointed out, when the information is freely available, but more importantly, can be independently verified by history books and more

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Revolution
    Quote Prior to the Communist revolution, Cuba was ruled under the elected government of Fulgencio Batista from 1940-1944. Throughout this time period, Batista's support base consisted mainly of corrupt politicians and military officials. Batista himself was able to heavily profit from the regime before coming into power through inflated government contracts and gambling proceeds.[30] In 1942, the British Foreign Office reported that the U.S. State Department was "very worried" about corruption under President Fulgencio Batista, describing the problem as "endemic" and exceeding "anything which had gone on previously." British diplomats believed that corruption was rooted within Cuba's most powerful institutions, with the highest individuals in government and military being heavily involved in gambling and the drug trade.[33] In terms of civil society, Eduardo Saenz Rovner writes that corruption within the Police and government enabled the expansion of criminal organizations in Cuba.[33] Batista refused U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt's offer to send experts to help reform the Cuban Civil Service.

    Later in 1952, Batista led a U-S backed military coup against Prío Socarras and ruled until 1965. Under his rule, Batista led a corrupt dictatorship that involved close links with organized crime organizations and the reduction of civil freedoms of Cubans. This period resulted in Bastista engaging in more "sophisticated practices of corruption" at both the administrative and civil society levels.[25] Batista and his administration engaged in profiteering from the lottery as well as illegal gambling.[25] Corruption further flourished in civil society through increasing amounts of police corruption, censorship of the press as well as media, and creating anti-communist campaigns that suppressed opposition with violence, torture and public executions. The former culture of toleration and acceptance towards corruption also dissolved with the dictatorship of Batista. For instance, one citizen wrote that "however corrupt Grau and Prío were, we elected them and therefore allowed them to steal from us. Batista robs us without our permission.”[34] Corruption under Batista further expanded into the economic sector with alliances that he forged with foreign investors and the prevalence of illegal casinos and criminal organizations in the country's capital of Havana.
    The will of the people means nothing, once it affects US companies, right? Democracy means nothing as well. Those people did not take anything from the US, it belonged to them in the first place, they were being robbed shamelessly, from all their richness and resources by the corruption of the government imposed by the US government back then. The took they rights and land/resources back, so now they are bad. Corruption was perfectly allowed by the US government as long as American companies got their share. And this as very hard historical facts

    Is not a time to selectively remove the true but inconvenient facts from history just to fill a narrative and make it go longer, as unsustainable as it is. *Everybody knows the truth*, as proven by the ridiculous difference in votes on the UN

    It is time to accept the facts, and not revised story that conveniently ignores what happened prior and what caused the revolution in the first place. It is time the US government stops being "3 kids stacked on each other under a trench coat"
    I bet you're naked under those clothes, how indecent of you...
    Whatever happens, happens next.

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    You seem to be arguing that we care more about our position in the world than we do humanitarianism. And the answer is, of course we do! Our values and our way of life have to be preserved, firstly, before we can hope to encourage others to adopt them
    I don't think i need to quote more than this, , even if could write an entire book about all the other misconceptions, half truths, narratives and selective history rewriting i can see

    First: "Our values and our way of life have to be preserved". What about the values of other's, those are not worth anything? To preserver your values, you must destroy others? Then those values are not as valuable as you think, if to preserve them you must kill indiscriminately around the world

    Second: "before we can hope to encourage others to adopt them". But nobody asked to be forcefully "converted".... Should be personal choice to follow... And the use of "encourage" is incorrect here, as a hard historical line of facts can prove easily, it should be "before we demand and enforce others to adopt them, one way or another, or else"

    You are selectively ignoring hundreds of historical facts about Cuba, specially about the Castro revolution and the true nature of the initial refugees in Miami. It's like the very minimal version used to explain newcomers so they follow the narrative. And that's disappointing, very honestly, because the full historical truth is not hard to reach out there, it's on the web

    This thread is just going to keep in circles like it just happened, unless real research and analysis of the facts and evidence is done, going back to the 'official narrative' for arguments is pointless

    I don't know if you've been paying attention or not, but the Cuban people are waving American flags We don't need to impose or destroy anything. They want what we have. There's a reason they're marching the streets. And it's not because they're happy with their government.

    If you want to talk Cuban history lets do it! Enlighten us. But there's nothing in that article you linked that says the US is preventing supplies from reaching Cuba

    And who's saying the embargo doesn't exist?

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    Avalon Member Malisa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    When the US government, designed the embargo against Cuba, they did not consider one thing...

    They basically said:

    Any ship that carries goods or makes business with Cuba, can't continue to make business with the US, or dock on the US ports, therefore putting the entire world on lock down and enforcing the embargo with Cuba, but still being able to say "anyone is free to do business with them, IF they want to"

    However, they forgot, in their tremendous arrogance, one simple thing.. Military ships, don't dock or do business with the US...

    So Mexico and Russia sent military ships with all the help they could send on a single trip, basically breaking through the embargo. LMFAO!

    *Think fast, think smart*

    What will the US do if China sends more help? The US government is basically shooting themselves in the foot right now, and they don't get it

    Let's see if the US is going to apply sanctions to Mexico now

    And again, i must make a note:

    NOTE: The government, and the people, are NOT the same thing, in any country on earth. And very rarely their interests are the same. What the US gov is doing, has *nothing* to do with the will of the US people, as far as Cuba goes. Except for a certain group in Miami, which is corrupted to the very core of their souls
    Last edited by Malisa; 29th July 2021 at 07:40.
    I bet you're naked under those clothes, how indecent of you...
    Whatever happens, happens next.

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  35. Link to Post #18
    Avalon Member Malisa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turmoil in Cuba

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    You seem to be arguing that we care more about our position in the world than we do humanitarianism. And the answer is, of course we do! Our values and our way of life have to be preserved, firstly, before we can hope to encourage others to adopt them
    I don't think i need to quote more than this, , even if could write an entire book about all the other misconceptions, half truths, narratives and selective history rewriting i can see

    First: "Our values and our way of life have to be preserved". What about the values of other's, those are not worth anything? To preserver your values, you must destroy others? Then those values are not as valuable as you think, if to preserve them you must kill indiscriminately around the world

    Second: "before we can hope to encourage others to adopt them". But nobody asked to be forcefully "converted".... Should be personal choice to follow... And the use of "encourage" is incorrect here, as a hard historical line of facts can prove easily, it should be "before we demand and enforce others to adopt them, one way or another, or else"

    You are selectively ignoring hundreds of historical facts about Cuba, specially about the Castro revolution and the true nature of the initial refugees in Miami. It's like the very minimal version used to explain newcomers so they follow the narrative. And that's disappointing, very honestly, because the full historical truth is not hard to reach out there, it's on the web

    This thread is just going to keep in circles like it just happened, unless real research and analysis of the facts and evidence is done, going back to the 'official narrative' for arguments is pointless

    I don't know if you've been paying attention or not, but the Cuban people are waving American flags We don't need to impose or destroy anything. They want what we have. There's a reason they're marching the streets. And it's not because they're happy with their government.

    If you want to talk Cuban history lets do it! Enlighten us. But there's nothing in that article you linked that says the US is preventing supplies from reaching Cuba

    And who's saying the embargo doesn't exist?
    I hope the messages i sent to you, explain this part about "Cubans people are waving American flags". Perhaps not me, but you, should eventually update this thread, since if i post that here, it won't change much around perception of other Americans, but if you do, it may actually help to change and improve things, for the people on Cuba who are truly suffering. I just hope you understand what i mean and why i said the things i said, and look them up and figure out what really is going on right now, and in the past decades.
    I bet you're naked under those clothes, how indecent of you...
    Whatever happens, happens next.

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  37. Link to Post #19
    Avalon Member Malisa's Avatar
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    I bet you're naked under those clothes, how indecent of you...
    Whatever happens, happens next.

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