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Thread: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Quote Posted by ThePythonicCow (here)
    ... the total collapse of the power, communications and supply grid would leave them isolated in their bunkers, with a Mad Max world above them.
    Precisely.
    • Kill all.
      Retreat to "bunker".
      Crustal Displacement.
      Release drone swarms to wipe out those pesky survivors.
      Emerge from "bunker" to a "new earth".

    Quote Posted by ThePythonicCow (here)
    They can't monitor it all; even the finest intelligence agencies are unable to reliably monitor all the encrypted traffic of their specific known adversaries, much less of all of us, and we'd all be their adversaries if they tried such a stunt.
    You seriously believe that the technology implemented that you and I know of is all they have? I wouldn't even hazard a guess as to how advanced their "hidden" technology is.
    Anything is possible with the proper training.

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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Of course I don't know it all, and if I did, I'd not be even hinting here that I did.

    The overall dynamics of the earthly power structures are visible to us all.
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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    The 'hidden' technologies most likely extend beyond this planet to off-world sources.
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

    Free will can only be as free as the mind that conceives it.

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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    The 'hidden' technologies most likely extend beyond this planet to off-world sources.
    Yup - likely so. Such is too far beyond my current understanding to support useful speculation.
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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Have to admit in advance that I haven't read the article yet. Anyway, this video is my understanding. Currently bitcoin's value is measured in fiat currency and fiat currency really only has value in relation to gold. As JP Morgan said, "Gold is money, everything else is credit."
    If/when hyperinflation comes, all currencies go to zero and gold goes to infinity, bitcoin goes....where? What am I missing? Thanks.

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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Quote Posted by IChingUChing (here)
    Have to admit in advance that I haven't read the article yet. ... What am I missing? Thanks.
    I suggest you spend the time to read the article. The Bullish Case for Bitcoin over Gold. There are logic errors and fallacies in the video you posted.

    For instance, the primary premise of the video is based on this question and answer, and I quote ... "In the beginning, how did anyone know what a bitcoin could buy? When bitcoin was born it was immediately indexed to the dollar."

    That is an erroneous answer. There is nothing inherent to bitcoin that ties it in any way to the dollar. That association simply does not exist as an intrinsic feature of bitcoin.

    Regarding the question, what could a bitcoin buy? The first recorded transaction was for pizza. On May 22, 2010, Laszlo Hanyecz agreed to pay 10,000 Bitcoins for two delivered Papa John's pizzas.

    Although this seems like a trivial thing, it literally is the event that established a value for bitcoin. Boy do I wish I had those 10,000 bitcoin. At $65k each, how how much money would I have?
    Last edited by Vangelo; 11th November 2021 at 21:46.
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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Thanks Vangelo.

    I will read it when I get the chance. Not sure I entirely agree with your argument. As I see it, fiat currency is globally agreed to be the representation used for exchange so that noone has to carry 3 chickens to go and exchange for 10 pizzas (for example). Rather 3 chickens cost $x and 10 pizzas also $x so we just hand over the units representing this in fiat currency. Because of global agreement to use the fiat system of value representation, even if 10,000 bitcoins were used to buy 2 pizzas, everyone translates the "2 delivered pizzas" in to the dollar fiat currency value of that time to know this initial valuation of bitcoin. I don't see a way around this. It would be ridiculous if everyone was talking about bitcoin in terms of so many oz of tomato paste, grammes of cheese, grammes of flour, etc.
    As far as I can see it always gets translated in to units of fiat currency because that's how we've agreed we compare values.
    Anyway, apologies - I have to read the article! :-)

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    United States Avalon Member Vangelo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Quote Posted by IChingUChing (here)
    ... fiat currency is globally agreed to be the representation used for exchange so that noone has to carry 3 chickens to go and exchange for 10 pizzas (for example). ... I don't see a way around this. It would be ridiculous if everyone was talking about bitcoin in terms of so many oz of tomato paste, grammes of cheese, grammes of flour, etc.
    As far as I can see it always gets translated in to units of fiat currency because that's how we've agreed we compare values.
    You are absolutely right, it would indeed be ridiculous and impractical. The inefficiency of the barter system is the primary reason why money has come into existence. You are describing the concept of 'store of value', one of the characteristics of money. It is a feature that is held by the fiat currencies of most nations.

    Here is a portion of the article that describes the attributes of a good store of value

    When stores of value compete against each other, it is the specific attributes that make a good store of value that allows one to out-compete another at the margin and increase demand for it over time. While many goods have been used as stores of value or “proto-money”, certain attributes emerged that were particularly demanded and allowed goods with these attributes to out-compete others. An ideal store of value will be:

    Durable: the good must not be perishable or easily destroyed. Thus wheat is not an ideal store of value

    Portable: the good must be easy to transport and store, making it possible to secure it against loss or theft and allowing it to facilitate long-distance trade. A cow is thus less ideal than a gold bracelet.

    Fungible: one specimen of the good should be interchangeable with another of equal quantity. Without fungibility, the coincidence of wants problem remains unsolved. Thus gold is better than diamonds, which are irregular in shape and quality.

    Verifiable: the good must be easy to quickly identify and verify as authentic. Easy verification increases the confidence of its recipient in trade and increases the likelihood a trade will be consummated.

    Divisible: the good must be easy to subdivide. While this attribute was less important in early societies where trade was infrequent, it became more important as trade flourished and the quantities exchanged became smaller and more precise.

    Scarce: As Nick Szabo termed it, a monetary good must have “unforgeable costliness”. In other words, the good must not be abundant or easy to either obtain or produce in quantity. Scarcity is perhaps the most important attribute of a store of value as it taps into the innate human desire to collect that which is rare. It is the source of the original value of the store of value.

    Established history: the longer the good is perceived to have been valuable by society, the greater its appeal as a store of value. A long-established store of value will be hard to displace by a new upstart except by force of conquest or if the arriviste is endowed with a significant advantage among the other attributes listed above.

    Censorship-resistant: a new attribute, which has become increasingly important in our modern, digital society with pervasive surveillance, is censorship-resistance. That is, how difficult is it for an external party such as a corporation or state to prevent the owner of the good from keeping and using it. Goods that are censorship-resistant are ideal to those living under regimes that are trying to enforce capital controls or to outlaw various forms of peaceful trade.

    The table below grades Bitcoin, gold and fiat money (such as dollars) against the attributes listed above and is followed by an explanation of each grade:


    The remainder of the article gets into the characteristics of bitcoin relative to these properties. Please note, that the article and I am only talking about bitcoin and not other crypto currencies. Not all crypto currencies are the same by any stretch of imagination.
    Last edited by Vangelo; 12th November 2021 at 17:43.
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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Quote Posted by IChingUChing (here)
    As far as I can see it always gets translated in to units of fiat currency because that's how we've agreed we compare values.
    Yes - we use some artificial unit, such as sea shells, troy ounces of gold, pound sterling, or US Dollars, as the basic unit of accounting, and translate other values into that basic unit.

    Over time, the most widely preferred unit of accounting changes.

    As I explain on my Money Masters thread, the US Dollar is ending its time in that role, sunk under the weight of debt and corruption.

    The question is what will be the next, most generally accepted, unit.

    As our civilization expands and grows, it will be important to choose a unit that works over the Internet, which is becoming our civilization's "nerve system".

    Even the Banksters, who base their power on a monopoly over extending debt, would, I presume, want a robust unit of accounting, that is relatively immune to the fraudulent schemes that have grown like an enormous cancerous tumor, many times larger in nominal value than the real value of the underlying asset, the US Dollars in circulation, as we see now.

    Like the Internet that is becoming our civilization's nerve system, both the debt-money monopolist Banksters and good humans and businesses, will increasingly depend on having robust monetary unit of accounting that works well over the Internet.

    We do the same thing with weapons: both good guys and bad guys seek out reliable guns.

    Also, like with guns, I don't seek to remove guns or make them more impotent.

    I seek to use the tools available to me, such as my brain with its experienced geek talents and the keyboard beneath my fingers, to support people acting for good, and hinder people acting for ill. I encourage others to do the same, with such abilities and resources as they may have.

    As best as I can tell, as I documented yesterday over at my Money Masters Post #118 and Post #120, Bitcoin is a good choice for the next basic unit of accounting for our civilization, and is on track to become just that.

    So, to answer the question I initially posed in the title of this thread:
    Yes, the Banksters are embracing a particular cryptocurrency, one that is not under the control of any particular national bank, namely Bitcoin.
    Last edited by ThePythonicCow; 12th November 2021 at 22:51.
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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    We're taking into account that in any future world 'emergencies' that the grid stays up and our virtual wallets will stay virtually wallet'ed

    I'm not wishing to spoil the party here

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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Like Dubsy says, it depends on the scenario.

    - If the grid goes off, and we're talking WW3 or by the likes (people eating boiled leather jackets, etc) It is out of question that bitcoin won't be remotely good. People don't know how to exchange and veryfy it, and there probably wouldn't be any device, or electricity at all, to go around exchanging them.

    - Another very likely outcome is If governments do reset the economy (something that seems like an obvious objective) and maybe during conflict or crisis, find the way and the excuse to wreck fiat money and make the world go into a credit system based on crypto. Which would very much turn it into complete dystopia, because of the "requirements" Vangelo posted. Imho, standarised cryptocurrency would be the very end of the little freedoms we have left.

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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Quote Posted by Dubsy (here)
    We're taking into account that in any future world 'emergencies' that the grid stays up and our virtual wallets will stay virtually wallet'ed

    I'm not wishing to spoil the party here
    Most of our modern life depends on technology, infrastructure, and other such world activity.

    If major or all portions of it go down, we fall back and regroup, as best we can.

    Since the odds seem good that it will keep going, we should arrange to do it as well as we can, and not stop because it might fail, while keeping some backup supplies, in case it does fail.
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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Quote Posted by I am B (here)
    standarised cryptocurrency would be the very end of the little freedoms we have left.
    Crypto as I imagine the Chinese CCP (and some of the American) elite desire would destroy much of our remaining freedom, yes.

    Crypto that supports direct person-to-person exchange of money, in much the same was as coins and paper money do now, would greatly expand our ability to engage in economic activity, with any other human, even for unbanked individuals commonly living in poorer regions of the world.

    Such would also be an improvement for many people in wealthier regions who rely on corporate payment services and bank cards to exchange money now. For example, some of those who have been blocked from Paypal for "spreading disinformation" would no longer be blocked. For another example, our good forum Founder Bill Ryan might find it easier to receive donations, in a form that he could then make practical use of in his locality, or over the Internet with remote services (such as the Avalon web host), than he finds it now.

    Just as the core Internet TCP/IP protocol has no way of blocking traffic just because some authority doesn't approve of who is sending or receiving it, so does Bitcoin have no way of blocking anyone from sending coin directly to another, just because of who they are.

    This is why I am against Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBCD), as they are usually proposed, for they would allow, in America for example, the Federal Reserve to identify every sender and every receiver of a requested transfer, before accepting it or rejecting it.

    This is analogous to guns. If only the agents of the government are allowed to have guns, then the people are much more easily controlled. If anyone might have a gun, then the police are much more likely to treat the people with respect (or at least to abandon the area, such as in some inner cities in America).
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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    But cryptos can be traced, the market can be easily influenced or broken with technology accesible to the rich and the government only and with the press of a button, not to talk about the "dangers" that the devices used for transmission hold. There is no privacy in the net, be it with CBCD or not.

    Not like right now its too too different, but at least cash money makes for a small almost untraceable economy...

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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Quote Posted by ThePythonicCow (here)
    Quote Posted by Dubsy (here)
    We're taking into account that in any future world 'emergencies' that the grid stays up and our virtual wallets will stay virtually wallet'ed

    I'm not wishing to spoil the party here
    Most of our modern life depends on technology, infrastructure, and other such world activity.

    If major or all portions of it go down, we fall back and regroup, as best we can.

    Since the odds seem good that it will keep going, we should arrange to do it as well as we can, and not stop because it might fail, while keeping some backup supplies, in case it does fail.
    Let's walk through this scenario together. It will show that bitcoin is much more resilient to this type of catastrophe than our current financial system...

    So, presuming some catastrophe hits and all the electricity goes out, everywhere around the world. That means the internet goes down everywhere as well. If it is an unrecoverable event, then it is an existential threat to the population of the world that is dependent upon electricity. The majority of people will die and money will have no value what so ever. Food and water will be the new gold

    If it is a recoverable event, and it was short enough duration that we didn't kill each other as we scavenged for food and water then, when we turned electricity back on, we would have to reset the data in the information systems that run our economy. So for instance, my bank would have to restore the last backup tape they have (note that I am being specific about backup tapes because they would be one of the few mediums that survive without an electric current running through them) Hopefully, my bank did a backup the night before the event. That means my bank account would read my balance as of last night as opposed to the balance as of the moment of the event.

    In addition, the company that supplies my electricity and the company that supplies my natural gas and my local, state and federal governments would also have to go to their their last backup tape (presuming they have one). None of them would have the same backup date which means nothing would add up. The government records might say I owe taxes while the electric company might say I have a positive balance on my account.

    How do we resolve that dilemma? A very interesting topic to speculate about...

    Notice, that I did not yet say anything about bitcoin. Here is the interesting thing, every miner on the network would have the same balance. All we would have to do is find the most recent backup tape that was taken by any one of the miners and use that as the new starting point. Then, the question becomes how do we know who owns each wallet? Well, if you saved your private key or seed words on a piece of paper, you are good. If you did not, you are out of luck.
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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Quote Posted by I am B (here)
    But cryptos can be traced, the market can be easily influenced or broken with technology accesible to the rich and the government only and with the press of a button, not to talk about the "dangers" that the devices used for transmission hold. There is no privacy in the net, be it with CBCD or not.

    Not like right now its too too different, but at least cash money makes for a small almost untraceable economy...
    Yes, this is why the FUD that crypto's are black market money that promote illegal activities and money laundering is a lie.

    However, cryptos like bitcoin do keep the owner's identity hidden. The way law enforcement tracks down the crypto criminal is to trace the transaction to the physical location (IP addresses) and then knock on the criminal's door and arrest them or they catch them when they cash out the crypto into fiat at a bank.

    There is a very important difference between CBCDs and cryptos like bitcoin which we have discussed previously in this thread and can be overly simplified as CBDCs BAD, Bitcoin GOOD. Let me elaborate...

    CBDCs (Central Bank Digital Currency) and Bitcoin are electronic currencies that implement blockchain technology. This is where they are the same and also why they are confused. The reason why bitcoin is good is because it has been implemented to be distributed, trustless, and private using encryption methods that can't be hacked. This simply means you and I can conduct a financial transaction without the need for a bank intermediary. I don't need to trust you or know who you are and you don't need to trust me or know who I am, but we both know the transaction will complete because it was executed on the bitcoin blockchain.

    The reason why CBDCs are bad is because they are not trustless or private and they are centralized. As such, they are under the complete control of the issuing central bank. China will be the first country to issue a CBDC. They have outlined the things they plan to implement with it and it is frightening. They will tie their social credit score to it. If you have a poor score then they can stop any and all payments to/from you. For instance, you wont be able to get on the bus or buy certain foods. They can also grade your purchases as good or bad according to their social credit system. They have even placed a timer on their money meaning, after a period of time, the digital Yuan you have will expire. They can take taxes from you directly, without your consent. They will know every transaction you make. I can go on and on...

    The difference between a CBDC and a normal crypto like bitcoin is important for every one of us to understand. The blockchain and bitcoin gives the regular guy financial freedom and independence. We need to do everything we can to preserve and protect it. On the other hand CBDCs are a bastardization of the blockchain technology and is designed to enslave you and I. We must do everything we can to limit CBDCs. I would say stop them but I don't believe we will succeed. The best thing to hope for is laws that limit their capabilities. Of the two, the most important is to keep bitcoin alive because it can operate in parallel with the CBDC. Those Chinese people with bitcoin will be in a better position than those without.
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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Quote Posted by Vangelo (here)

    CBDCs (Central Bank Digital Currency) and Bitcoin are electronic currencies that implement blockchain technology. This is where they are the same and also why they are confused. The reason why bitcoin is good is because it has been implemented to be distributed, trustless, and private using encryption methods that can't be hacked. This simply means you and I can conduct a financial transaction without the need for a bank intermediary. I don't need to trust you or know who you are and you don't need to trust me or know who I am, but we both know the transaction will complete because it was executed on the bitcoin blockchain.
    .
    I'm afraid thats wrong, and kinda naive too. Everything can be hacked from the moment you get online. And bitcoin IS traceable now. No standard person will be halfways "hidden and private" while doing bitcoin transactions. It just needs the smallest of efforts for any government or organisation to go after it.

    And one way or another, you're putting your money in a "device" that could be literally torched with the press of a button. (Almost the same way it is now with bank accounts)

    Of course CBDCs are even worse. But it doesn't make cryptos any better. I just see at the best of two evils.

    They worked back then for exchanging some illegal goods privately. (and they had TONS of scams etc) But you cannot base an economy into that, the same way I wouldn't bet all my money on my finely tuned pc to work forever. (specially not while having the power there is aganist it)

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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Quote Posted by I am B (here)
    Quote Posted by Vangelo (here)

    CBDCs (Central Bank Digital Currency) and Bitcoin are electronic currencies that implement blockchain technology. This is where they are the same and also why they are confused. The reason why bitcoin is good is because it has been implemented to be distributed, trustless, and private using encryption methods that can't be hacked. This simply means you and I can conduct a financial transaction without the need for a bank intermediary. I don't need to trust you or know who you are and you don't need to trust me or know who I am, but we both know the transaction will complete because it was executed on the bitcoin blockchain.
    .
    I'm afraid thats wrong, and kinda naive too. Everything can be hacked from the moment you get online. And bitcoin IS traceable now. No standard person will be halfways "hidden and private" while doing bitcoin transactions. It just needs the smallest of efforts for any government or organisation to go after it.

    And one way or another, you're putting your money in a "device" that could be literally torched with the press of a button. (Almost the same way it is now with bank accounts)

    Of course CBDCs are even worse. But it doesn't make cryptos any better. I just see at the best of two evils.

    They worked back then for exchanging some illegal goods privately. (and they had TONS of scams etc) But you cannot base an economy into that, the same way I wouldn't bet all my money on my finely tuned pc to work forever. (specially not while having the power there is aganist it)
    true what you say ... Bitcoin is not even encrypted ...

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    United States Avalon Member Vangelo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Quote Posted by I am B (here)
    ...
    I'm afraid thats wrong, and kinda naive too. Everything can be hacked from the moment you get online.
    How familiar are you with SHA256 and Elliptic Curve Digital Signatures?

    The one thing I am certain of, regarding the Avalon community, is that it is full of people with extraordinary depth and knowledge. As a result, I tread softly.


    Quote ...
    And bitcoin IS traceable now. No standard person will be halfways "hidden and private" while doing bitcoin transactions. It just needs the smallest of efforts for any government or organisation to go after it.
    Yes, that is why I agreed with your original assertion and said "Yes, this is why the FUD that crypto's are black market money that promote illegal activities and money laundering is a lie."


    Quote Posted by I am B (here)
    ...
    And one way or another, you're putting your money in a "device" that could be literally torched with the press of a button. (Almost the same way it is now with bank accounts)
    Not sure I understand this comment. Are you saying something like... if my bitcoin is stored on my phone and the phone is destroyed, I would therefore lose my bitcoin? If so, that is not true. Nothing is stored on private devices. The 'information' is stored in the ledger and the ledger is replicated at every one of the nodes i.e. with the miners. There are currently over 10,000 bitcoin nodes around the world. That means the ledger is replicated 10,000 times and it is why bitcoin and other distributed ledger cryptos are so resilient. Banks, on the other hand, are centralized and their bank account information is only as safe as the DR (disaster recovery) location.


    Quote Posted by I am B (here)
    ...
    Of course CBDCs are even worse. But it doesn't make cryptos any better. I just see at the best of two evils.
    CBDCs have the potential to truly enslave us all. Unfortunately, I don't think we will be able to outlaw them so I only see 2 options:
    1) Work to get your government to pass laws that limit the capabilities of CBDCs
    2) Work to get your government to pass laws that facilitate the use and adoption of cryptos such as bitcoin.

    In all cases, we need to educate people as to the differences between the two.
    Happiness comes from within, nowhere else.

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  39. Link to Post #80
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    Default Re: Will the Banksters Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish Cryptocurrencies?

    Quote Posted by Vangelo (here)
    CBDCs (Central Bank Digital Currency) and Bitcoin are electronic currencies that implement blockchain technology.
    ...
    The reason why CBDCs are bad is because they are not trustless or private and they are centralized. As such, they are under the complete control of the issuing central bank.
    CBCD's might not even use blockchain technology

    Blockchains come with extra complications required to reach a consensus between a more or less random unreliable collection of independent nodes. A particular CBCD might use blockchain technology, but that would be an internal implementation choice. A given Central Bank is a single organization, and would be more likely, in my estimation, to use more traditional banking and retail transaction processing software.

    Blockchains are used to implement distributed, trustless databases. Blockchains are the first example we have of a software architecture that could do this, and they are still the most common way of doing this. Blockchains are a way for multiple nodes that don't trust each other to come to a consensus on updates to a shared database. They require additional logic to arrive at this consensus. They can do this over the public network. They don't have to be behind the firewall of a single operation. They can reach consensus in the presence of nodes coming and going without notice, while other hostile nodes are busy poking and prodding, interfering with this traffic by blocking, spying on, or flooding the network with bogus traffic

    Anytime you are doing such accounting work inside a single operation, you don't need these complications. You can put up a firewall and use traditional computer software, such as the banks already use to keep track of their customer accounts. Such software is much more mature, feature rich and commercially supported than blockchain software.

    In nations where most people already have online accounts with banks, stores and other services, the customer facing interface to CBDC's might well look and feel like the debit cards many of us already have. The main difference be that the Central Bank holds the account, instead of a commercial or retail bank or similar.

    In nations where many people don't have the legal identities needed to setup such accounts, or where the Central Bank wants to support more anonymous access, then the CBDC's can let each user's device, such as a PC or mobile, generate random unique identifiers to be used as the addresses to send money to, and receive money from. That might still not involve blockchains on the back end, though it might feel more like using a blockchain network, to the end user.

    In short, CBCD's are not that much different than checking accounts with ordinary banks, except (1) no paper checks, (2) only electronic access over the Internet and (3) it's the Big Daddy of banks in your nation you're dealing with, so you jolly well better hope they don't take a dislike to you.
    My quite dormant website: pauljackson.us

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