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Thread: If the power grid goes down... then what?

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    Canada Avalon Member DeDukshyn's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    ... The grid wont collapse because the control system will collapse with it. Imagine people unable to watch TV and listen to the lies and nonsense of governments and their bosses
    Correction: "THEY" probably won't collapse the grid, for the reasons you mention ... however, the sun could do it easily with only a few days hint that it might even happen ...

    BTW good job on getting yourself off grid.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    ... The grid wont collapse because the control system will collapse with it. Imagine people unable to watch TV and listen to the lies and nonsense of governments and their bosses
    Correction: "THEY" probably won't collapse the grid, for the reasons you mention ... however, the sun could do it easily with only a few days hint that it might even happen ...

    BTW good job on getting yourself off grid.
    Yes of course natural calamities can do it. We had a recent typhoon that collapse the grid on some parts of the country. Being born and live for 44 years in a typhoon prone area of the country I am a veteran of grid collapse. The longest if I remember correctly was 48 days of no power. This is the time when I converted our ordinary stove to a glowing stove. We cooked all our foods for the next day when sun sets. During this time of cooking we have light from the glowing stove. "Necessity is the parent of inventions". Been ok so far. just a little inconvenience. People are different though I see times like this as an opportunity to have fun. So maybe a huge inconvenience for others is little for me.

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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Quote Posted by Jambo (here)
    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Everyone knows that almost any motor can be turned into a generator, right? All you need do is turn the shaft with a prime mover force, like wind or water. It is not as efficient as a true generator but it will work.
    Sadly as someone who doesn't know this... I'd be happy to KNOW the how to of it!? Just for future reference... as you'd be helping me immensely.
    Many thanks in advance!

    It's simple, really. The wires from the motor become the generated power when you turn the shaft of the motor at its rated RPM, usually 1600rpm. So the only problem is figuring out how to move the shaft with wind or water or pedal power. A ten speed bike can be used for gearing even if wind or water is being used, to get the RPMs right.

    Charging batteries is also simple from a solar supply, because it is already 12 volts DC, unless panels have been interconnected for an inverter to convert power to 120 volts AC. A trickle charger is all you'd need in principle for a water or wind supply, being usually configured to 120 volts AC.
    Hey Ernie, most motors are induction motors. It wont work by simply turning its shaft. You need to find ways to excite the rotors and make it an electromagnet. like connecting capacitors on the winding. Motors with permanent magnets will work by simply turning its shaft. Most DC motors have permanent magnets. So its good to have one DC motor if you can find it at scrap yards. I have one that use to be a DC water pump. Just make sure that the motor has permanent magnets and you wont have problems with conversion or rewiring.

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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    additionally I would advise prepers to go for a DC power system. DC motors rated at 12 volts can run on 3 volts albeit at less RPM. you can't do that with ac motors because it will Burn.
    Almost all electronic appliance runs on DC. All you need is a DC to DC buck converter. I recently bought one for like 2 dollars. 6 to 26 volts input and 5 volts output. to charge my mobile phone from a 6 or 12 volt battery.
    Then of course you can collect DC power from sun. With DC motor/ generator you can harness power from wind water or pedals with little worries about correct RPM. For charging batteries you'll need a charge controller.
    For bigger power requirement such as mills or saws. Get an ICE and run it on woodgas or biogas. It can still be run on regular petrol anytime.

    Its fun really, just be frugal and try to forget the unreasonable luxuries of the city. Move around/ exercise more. You'll feel a lot better when you get used to grid collapse.
    Last edited by Bubu; 31st December 2021 at 01:01.

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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    Also, If you live out of town, or have your own well head. A lot of hardware stores sell hand pumps you can mount on the wellhead and pump your water yourself. A couple of clean buckets and you can flush toilets, and have drinking too. I just need a wood stove for heat, and a place to cook on.

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    Good point, and thanks. DC motors have commutators that cause losses, but are good for DC power, or to excite the field winding of an AC generator. Otherwise they still have to be inverted for AC power use.

    In an induction motor a small excitation current must be introduced to the field winding while the rotor is turning and a load must be attached to the motor leads to complete the circuit.
    The induction motor has shaded poles, interpoles, and other tricks to smooth out the power curve and increase efficiency, that interfere with the generator effect.
    I guess it's not so easy after all.

    There are other problems associated with the motor, that distinguish it from a generator.

    Motor and generator are in theory the exact same principle but solved on opposite sides of the equation, so to speak.

    AC power is 'naturally' produced by a turning machine, and so AC power is far more desirable in those terms. Also it is much easier to transport AC power as opposed to DC over even medium distances of hundreds of feet. AC power can also easily be converted to DC by a simple bridge rectifier, the voltage moderated by resistors, unlike DC to AC.

    I defer to Bubu on the practical application side of things.
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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Good point, and thanks. DC motors have commutators that cause losses, but are good for DC power, or to excite the field winding of an AC generator. Otherwise they still have to be inverted for AC power use.

    In an induction motor a small excitation current must be introduced to the field winding while the rotor is turning and a load must be attached to the motor leads to complete the circuit.
    The induction motor has shaded poles, interpoles, and other tricks to smooth out the power curve and increase efficiency, that interfere with the generator effect.
    I guess it's not so easy after all.

    There are other problems associated with the motor, that distinguish it from a generator.

    Motor and generator are in theory the exact same principle but solved on opposite sides of the equation, so to speak.

    AC power is 'naturally' produced by a turning machine, and so AC power is far more desirable in those terms. Also it is much easier to transport AC power as opposed to DC over even medium distances of hundreds of feet. AC power can also easily be converted to DC by a simple bridge rectifier, the voltage moderated by resistors, unlike DC to AC.

    I defer to Bubu on the practical application side of things.
    I dont think we defer that much in opinion, And I am sure some people are glad we are discussing this, so back to topic. I recommend DC for emergencies, as this thread is more on that. And for people who have very little knowledge on this subject but wants to survive the onset of grid out with two most important things ; light and communication. However when things settled and gets better we definitely have to acquire AC power for the very obvious reason that more than 95% of electric appliance runs on ac.

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    Canada Avalon Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    [QUOTE=Bubu;1472121]
    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Good point, and thanks. DC motors have commutators that cause losses, but are good for DC power, or to excite the field winding of an AC generator. Otherwise they still have to be inverted for AC power use.

    I dont think we defer that much in opinion, And I am sure some people are glad we are discussing this, so back to topic. I recommend DC for emergencies, as this thread is more on that. And for people who have very little knowledge on this subject but wants to survive the onset of grid out with two most important things ; light and communication. However when things settled and gets better we definitely have to acquire AC power for the very obvious reason that more than 95% of electric appliance runs on ac.
    I purchased an Inverter/ Generator. It does not have the spikes and brownouts, so it does not damage the delicate electronics. It provides DC and AC and some have an economy setting, whereby it idles when you have a light load.

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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    additionally I would advise prepers to go for a DC power system. DC motors rated at 12 volts can run on 3 volts albeit at less RPM. you can't do that with ac motors because it will Burn.
    Almost all electronic appliance runs on DC. All you need is a DC to DC buck converter. I recently bought one for like 2 dollars. 6 to 26 volts input and 5 volts output. to charge my mobile phone from a 6 or 12 volt battery.
    Then of course you can collect DC power from sun. With DC motor/ generator you can harness power from wind water or pedals with little worries about correct RPM. For charging batteries you'll need a charge controller.
    For bigger power requirement such as mills or saws. Get an ICE and run it on woodgas or biogas. It can still be run on regular petrol anytime.

    Its fun really, just be frugal and try to forget the unreasonable luxuries of the city. Move around/ exercise more. You'll feel a lot better when you get used to grid collapse.
    I have added you to my list of hero's,bubu. I mean that. I have deep admiration for your level of knowledge in the field of survival, living off grid and the farm you are building as well as the diverse information you have. Would you be able to recommend a book for understanding the basics of all things electrical for dummies and how to utilize that knowledge the way you do or is it just things you learn over time and pick up here and there?

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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    Quote Posted by Pam (here)
    I have added you to my list of hero's,bubu. I mean that. I have deep admiration for your level of knowledge in the field of survival, living off grid and the farm you are building as well as the diverse information you have. Would you be able to recommend a book for understanding the basics of all things electrical for dummies and how to utilize that knowledge the way you do or is it just things you learn over time and pick up here and there?

    Dare to Prepare
    by Holly Drennan Deyo (Author)

    It's pricey, but extremely well researched. She covers every aspect of survival; much attention to detail.

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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    We run on TWO power systems on our property - one is a 24VDC circuit that handles the lighting, comms (including radio, satellite, local UHF and base HF operations), security systems and a few other systems. The other is the standard 240VAC circuitry that, whilst it is currently fed by mains power, is primarily driven by the massive array of solar panels on the roof. Here, in Far Northern Queensland, we get PLENTY of sunlight, and we rarely have to rely on mains power during the day. During the evening, we have enough stored power to run the freezers and the lighting, because of the inverter / battery configuration. We don’t usually do that - while mains power is available we’ll use it and not waste battery charge/discharge cycles.

    But, if the grid went down:

    We have two diesel generators in place in the basement, configured to load-balance normal power demands. We have enough fuel in the ground to run them for just under 24 months.

    But there is a downside to this:
    - To maintain multiple freezers (we store a lot of produce from our farm) requires significant energy.
    - During the ‘wet’ (December through to March), the heat and humidity is NOT comfortable, and one would need air-conditioning, which draws a significant amount of energy.
    - Moving water from tanks to dam [and vice versa], etc requires power 24x7

    - During the ‘wet’ season, solar panels cannot produce 100% of the building’s power needs, especially if one considers that this is also the peak need for air-conditioning!

    All of the above means that there are some periods in the year where solar power is NOT enough to provide 100% of the power needs. So, we have a generator system that we use in case the solar system can’t meet the power needs of our homestead.

    If the grid went down, we would have at least two years worth of full power, maybe three. After that, it’s solar system only. We know that we can adjust our power requirements to adapt.

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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    Quote Posted by Pam (here)
    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    additionally I would advise prepers to go for a DC power system. DC motors rated at 12 volts can run on 3 volts albeit at less RPM. you can't do that with ac motors because it will Burn.
    Almost all electronic appliance runs on DC. All you need is a DC to DC buck converter. I recently bought one for like 2 dollars. 6 to 26 volts input and 5 volts output. to charge my mobile phone from a 6 or 12 volt battery.
    Then of course you can collect DC power from sun. With DC motor/ generator you can harness power from wind water or pedals with little worries about correct RPM. For charging batteries you'll need a charge controller.
    For bigger power requirement such as mills or saws. Get an ICE and run it on woodgas or biogas. It can still be run on regular petrol anytime.

    Its fun really, just be frugal and try to forget the unreasonable luxuries of the city. Move around/ exercise more. You'll feel a lot better when you get used to grid collapse.
    I have added you to my list of hero's,bubu. I mean that. I have deep admiration for your level of knowledge in the field of survival, living off grid and the farm you are building as well as the diverse information you have. Would you be able to recommend a book for understanding the basics of all things electrical for dummies and how to utilize that knowledge the way you do or is it just things you learn over time and pick up here and there?
    Thanks Pam I was thinking along the same lines towards you. I mean you are one of the people I consider "adorable" and I mean it. I cant remember reading books on any subject. When I want to know something I simply try to find the answer on google or make experiments. Its easy for me because I have the basic knowledge on almost everything technical. Being educated as marine engineer. Further I was born like this. I mean a discoverer/ tinkerer. I can not recommend any book but I will be glad to answer any of your questions no matter how many you ask. Some things you should know is ; where there is electric current there is an accompanying magnetic field. Alternating current is electricity that goes back and fort in a conductor. That is why Ernie said its easier to transmit it because its not actually transmitted it simply reciprocates in a wire, electrons or whatever it is. DC or direct current on the other hand is transmitted from one end to the other. That is why it requires bigger wires than ac. Just read electrical books it will prime you so you'll be able to ask the right questions. I will try to provide the answers the best I can. Learning is fun. don't stop learning while you still can.

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    Australia Avalon Member Tigger's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    Quote Posted by Tigger (here)
    We run on TWO power systems on our property - one is a 24VDC circuit that handles the lighting, comms (including radio, satellite, local UHF and base HF operations), security systems and a few other systems. The other is the standard 240VAC circuitry that, whilst it is currently fed by mains power, is primarily driven by the massive array of solar panels on the roof. Here, in Far Northern Queensland, we get PLENTY of sunlight, and we rarely have to rely on mains power during the day. During the evening, we have enough stored power to run the freezers and the lighting, because of the inverter / battery configuration. We don’t usually do that - while mains power is available we’ll use it and not waste battery charge/discharge cycles.

    But, if the grid went down:

    We have two diesel generators in place in the basement, configured to load-balance normal power demands. We have enough fuel in the ground to run them for just under 24 months.

    But there is a downside to this:
    - To maintain multiple freezers (we store a lot of produce from our farm) requires significant energy.
    - During the ‘wet’ (December through to March), the heat and humidity is NOT comfortable, and one would need air-conditioning, which draws a significant amount of energy.
    - Moving water from tanks to dam [and vice versa], etc requires power 24x7

    - During the ‘wet’ season, solar panels cannot produce 100% of the building’s power needs, especially if one considers that this is also the peak need for air-conditioning!

    All of the above means that there are some periods in the year where solar power is NOT enough to provide 100% of the power needs. So, we have a generator system that we use in case the solar system can’t meet the power needs of our homestead.

    If the grid went down, we would have at least two years worth of full power, maybe three. After that, it’s solar system only. We know that we can adjust our power requirements to adapt.

    A classic case in point:

    This evening the mains power grid dropped out (again) due to fallen power lines. That’s not an unusual incident in this area (there’s been 5 power outages in the last 4 weeks), only this outage is likely to last several days.

    The problem is, this incident has hit us after several days of steady rain (i.e. very limited solar power generation) and the batteries are close to depleted. So the solar power system can’t supply our power needs for much longer...

    That wouldn’t normally be a problem for us, because we have generator backup, running 2 x 22KW units (load balanced)... Except, one of the generators failed this evening, and the secondary unit is now supplying 100% of our power needs. Technically we have no issue (one generator can hold the power needs of the property), assuming we can get the other generator fixed, and providing the secondary generator doesn’t fail. This is what we call redundancy. In the meantime, the secondary generator is chewing up diesel fuel like a kid chews lollipops.

    So, OK, we still have power, but look at how many of our systems failed in the process. And we’ve been pretty careful to shore-up our power needs because we know how badly we rely on that for a range of critical applications.

    THIS is why you need to run ‘scenarios’. THIS is why you need to evaluate your own situation and plan for contingencies. In this game, you need to develop a vivid but realistic imagination to deal with the “what if...?”

    In this little episode, I’m able to post online because I have failsafe after failsafe for my power needs. Considering this is a widespread power outage, all of the 4G towers are down, and I am running on a DS-3 satellite backup system, hence why I am able to post this update.
    Last edited by Tigger; 11th January 2022 at 15:09. Reason: Emphasis added

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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    A bit off-topic, but when the chips are really down, you could try this:

    Building a complete and warm survival shelter. Bushcraft earth hut, grass roof & fireplace with clay.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skcqFTi3s_A

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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    Quote Posted by Yoda (here)
    Quote Posted by Pam (here)
    I have added you to my list of hero's,bubu. I mean that. I have deep admiration for your level of knowledge in the field of survival, living off grid and the farm you are building as well as the diverse information you have. Would you be able to recommend a book for understanding the basics of all things electrical for dummies and how to utilize that knowledge the way you do or is it just things you learn over time and pick up here and there?

    Dare to Prepare
    by Holly Drennan Deyo (Author)

    It's pricey, but extremely well researched. She covers every aspect of survival; much attention to detail.
    Yoda, I am late to thank you, I will check your recommendation out!!!!

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  31. Link to Post #36
    Europe Avalon Member Icare's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    This thread has made me rethink whether I'm really well-prepared and it pretty much looks like I'm not - yet.

    I have enough food and water to last me quite a while, I have a Berkey water filter as well.

    So last week I ordered a little outside cooker fuelled by wood which I can theoretically collect in the tiny wood behind my house. It's for cooking and baking, so I'm hoping it'll be good enough. It has just arrived in the post and I'm hoping to unpack it and set it up outside soon. It's too heavy to do it on my own.

    That was step one. Now for step 2.

    I can't afford to buy solar panels for my house just yet, far too expensive and only useful if it would remain undamaged and could be disconnected from the grid in case of an attack or whatever on the grid, so now I'm thinking of getting an affordable smaller alternative, just 2 panels which would be completely independent of the grid and which I could theoretically place somewhere in the garden or in case of a serious crisis just in the kitchen windows.

    I'd buy a complete system including a transformer with a socket for an ordinary German plug and a battery.

    Unfortunately I'm not tech savvy at all and would like to ask somebody's advice.

    I have found 2 systems which sound promising.

    If an Avalon member with any knowhow in this field reads this, would you kindly send me a quick pm? Then I could send you the two links and you could tell me which one to get?
    I guess I could post them here, but they're in German, so I'm guessing only an expert, someone who can understand all the numbers without needing literal translations for the components would be able to understand.

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  33. Link to Post #37
    Avalon Member TrumanCash's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    I highly recommend the Thunderbolt Solar Panel kits for northern areas and other areas with limited sunshine. The kits contain "amorphous" solar panels which are not the same as the usual blue crystal panels which are better (i.e., more efficient) for sunny areas. Amorphous solar panels are more efficient at capturing indirect lighting that is more common in cloudy areas and when chemtrails cover the sky.

    Thunderbolt 12-volt kits not only contain solar panels but also lights, controller and connectors. Thunderbolt also has smaller 12-volt batteries for sale. Harbor Freight carries them but they can also be found online. There is no inverter in the kits so you can purchase one separately if you want to power 110 volt AC electronics. I would recommend getting the kits now while they are still available and they cost about $200 per kit with four 25-watt solar panels.

    Unfortunately, the Thunderbolt kits are the only source for amorphous panels that I have found outside of amorphous RV and camping solar panels that are usually flexible and can be rolled up. The Thunderbolt kits have solar panels that are set in frames and are not flexible. This kits now have four panels (100 watts). One can purchase a connecting device to connect multiple Thunderbolt kits together for more wattage.
    Harbor Freight page with video -- https://www.harborfreight.com/100-wa...kit-63585.html
    I just found another company that sells amorphous panels, Renogy.com, but I like the plug-and-play features of the Harbor Freight panels and a controller with USB for charging cell phones and computers.

    Last edited by TrumanCash; 17th January 2022 at 18:01.

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  35. Link to Post #38
    United States Avalon Member
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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    This morning between 06:00 & 06:12 there was a power outage in my area of Los Angeles County. I wondered if and when it would go back on.

    Dare-to-Prepare

    This video gives a good list of preparedness items.

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  37. Link to Post #39
    Philippines Avalon Member
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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    Quote Posted by Icare (here)
    This thread has made me rethink whether I'm really well-prepared and it pretty much looks like I'm not - yet.

    I have enough food and water to last me quite a while, I have a Berkey water filter as well.

    So last week I ordered a little outside cooker fuelled by wood which I can theoretically collect in the tiny wood behind my house. It's for cooking and baking, so I'm hoping it'll be good enough. It has just arrived in the post and I'm hoping to unpack it and set it up outside soon. It's too heavy to do it on my own.

    That was step one. Now for step 2.

    I can't afford to buy solar panels for my house just yet, far too expensive and only useful if it would remain undamaged and could be disconnected from the grid in case of an attack or whatever on the grid, so now I'm thinking of getting an affordable smaller alternative, just 2 panels which would be completely independent of the grid and which I could theoretically place somewhere in the garden or in case of a serious crisis just in the kitchen windows.

    I'd buy a complete system including a transformer with a socket for an ordinary German plug and a battery.

    Unfortunately I'm not tech savvy at all and would like to ask somebody's advice.

    I have found 2 systems which sound promising.

    If an Avalon member with any knowhow in this field reads this, would you kindly send me a quick pm? Then I could send you the two links and you could tell me which one to get?
    I guess I could post them here, but they're in German, so I'm guessing only an expert, someone who can understand all the numbers without needing literal translations for the components would be able to understand.
    there isnt much sun on your area so get a monocrystaline panel. they work at low light intensity. I imstalled my panel on a wood bar such that I can rotate it to face the sun. I turn it 3x a day. I am also planning to install a reflector on the sides of the panel to maximixe light collection. This is a lot cheaper than buying additional panels.

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  39. Link to Post #40
    UK Avalon Member Nick Matkin's Avatar
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    Default Re: If the power grid goes down... then what?

    Great and timely thread! There are real fears of a very significant imminent cyber attack on Western energy and industrial infrastructure. There's some good technical info posted in the thread, but unfortunately probably above the grasp of those readers with little technical grounding.

    "Nine Meals from Anarchy" may give some insight...

    Link here: https://neweconomics.org/uploads/fil..._34m6bv9jo.pdf
    Last edited by Nick Matkin; 14th April 2022 at 16:55.

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