Advice on 5-HTP and other alternatives

[Scorpio Girl]

Hi guys, I'm looking for advice on whether 5HTTP is helpful for teenagers suffering from anxiety and panic attacks. Or whether there is anything more effective than that. It's a long story which I'm not going into right now but I need to find something to help my son. He is seeing a Cognitive Behaviour Therapist but has only just started down this road. Even being pointed in the right direction would help.

[Dorjezigzag]

I dont use it now but I have found it very effective in the past for depression and also helps to fall to sleep. Much better as far as side effects compared to SSRI's etc. Make sure you get the natural 5-htp from the Griffonia seed and not the synthetic versions. Definitely give it a go. Exercise is very important as well, if he doesn't already perhaps find him something he can enjoy while getting fit, both physically and mentally. Of course take a close look at his diet, cut down on sugar and caffeine. Best of luck to your son.

[norman]

If the situation with your son is manageable and steady, ignore the rest of this post.

In a life threatening emergency, 30mg Mirtazapine. It's obviously not the right option for healing but it will shut him down and save his life, for another day.

I know it's not the answer to your question but I'm throwing it in here.

I've used it myself in the past. It stopped acute anxiety dead in half an hour and gave me a good restful sleep, into the bargain. A bit drowsy on waking up but that's preferable to an instant anxiety surge on waking up.

In my country it's prescription only, and probably in yours too, that's the snag.

[Mashika]

Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)
I dont use it now but I have found it very effective in the past for depression and also helps to fall to sleep. Much better as far as side effects compared to SSRI's etc. Make sure you get the natural 5http from the griffonia seed and not the synthetic versions. Definitely give it a go. Exercise is very important as well, if he doesn't already perhaps find him something he can enjoy while getting fit, both physically and mentally. Of course take a close look at his diet, cut down on sugar and caffeine. Best of luck to your son.

This is my experience as well, i had it long ago and it help with sleep and depression. I still got anxiety attacks, it did not help with that. It was removed from my treatment after less than a year

But the root of the problem may be completely different and it also means it may work for one person but not another. In my case i had a very specific situation that required a lot of other treatment normally no teenager requires.

In other words my anxiety attacks came from live experiences that most kids won't have, so it may work well in his case after all

[Violet3]

Hi there
As a retired social worker who worked as a counsellor on and off I can offer that CBT is known to be effective for assisting with management of symptoms of anxiety including panic attacks, so it is good to try that out especially if your son 'clicks' with the Therapist. Otherwise find someone he likes or respects, as the relationship is itself therapeutic. It is also helpful if you yourself don't panic but stay calm and do whatever supports you.
Re 5HTTP I have no experience but in my opinion as it is a serotonin precursor, naturally produced in the body, it could be helpful if for some reason he is not producing enough. If it does not help, it won't hurt him, as long as it is not used long term. Long term use of things that the healthy body should produce actually inhibits production, but as a shorter term strategy it is worth a try. See if after a week he thinks it helps. Consulting a Naturopath would also perhaps help to refine what natural substances might be more targeted to help.

Long term, understanding the source of the anxiety and gaining the capacity to manage or overcome it is what helps, along with friends and positive prospects in life, love and support.
So many young people are anxious these days, for obvious reasons, especially the sensitive ones. I feel for them.
Best wishes to you, Scorpio Girl.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)
I dont use it now but I have found it very effective in the past for depression and also helps to fall to sleep. Much better as far as side effects compared to SSRI's etc. Make sure you get the natural 5http from the griffonia seed and not the synthetic versions. Definitely give it a go. Exercise is very important as well, if he doesn't already perhaps find him something he can enjoy while getting fit, both physically and mentally. Of course take a close look at his diet, cut down on sugar and caffeine. Best of luck to your son.

Yes definitely exercise helps a lot, good point.

[Dorjezigzag]

I used to frequently perform and laterly present art auctions in front of 100s of people and I did need to make sure I avoided any anxiety and stage fright, so I found a combination of 5-htp for calming and ginseng for energy worked really well.

So I would say it could be effective for his anxiety, as Malisa says we are all individuals with different root causes but I definitely think he has nothing to loose by trying.

Would not recommend the ginseng combo initially though.

As far as dosage with the 5-htp I personally feel the 50mg has little effect and really I need a minimum of 200mg. Although you do probably need to be careful initially.

I no longer use any supplements like this but I really recommend this on the road to rebalancing his system.

In relation to Violet 3 post and serotonin
Serotonin in the brain is thought to regulate anxiety, happiness, and mood. Low levels of the chemical have been associated with depression, and increased serotonin levels brought on by medication are thought to decrease arousal.
https://www.healthline.com/health/me...onin#functions

[palehorse]

Hi Scorpio Girl,

The best advice I can give you, take your son to the outdoors, go for exercises close to nature, do anything close to nature, he will heal. My kid already entered into "teenager realm" despite she is only eleven, she is already a 15 or 16 teenager mind. Not easy, try not to freak out haha I usually do, but best thing to do, join their world for a little while and try to understand their frustrations, give practical advice, cut to the chase without too much explanations of this and that, they will appreciate, all they need is a good friend to trust (speak their tongue).

[Olaf]

Well, the answer depends from what is the cause of the panic attacks.

If there are psychological reasons, 5-HTP will have no significant effects.

If there is a lack of neurotransmitters (serotonin), 5-HTP will have a significant effect, if used right.
5-HTP is the pre-stage of serotonin. But to produce serotonin from 5-HTP the body needs also activated vitamine B6 (P-5-P). To build it, the body needs B6, zinc and magnesia. If any of these three substances is missing, the process will not work.

I have about 200 clients, that take 5-HTP. All of them combine it with P5P. The doses depends from other factors. Normally 30... 50 mg P5P, but some people only accept 3 mg (1/20 of the normal dose), when they have problems with histamine.

Finally it is not always easy to find out, if there are psychological reasons too. Of course you cannot process stress when you have a lack of neurotransmitters. So a lack of 5-HTP or P5P or B6 or zinc or magnesium will weaken your possibilities to process stress, and that causes secondary psychological problems.

So having said that, one can have also a combination of material and psychological causes for anxiety and panic attacks.

[Bill Ryan]

Mod note from Bill:

I believe this isn't '5http', but 5-HTP (5-hydroxytryptophan). May we change the thread title?

[Dorjezigzag]

I just want to put a warning that although there can be great benefits from psychological treatments and therapy my own personal experience was not a good one. I also saw some friends who were taken down by the psychiatric system. Labels put on them that did not help their situation at all. I think there are some great people working in this field but really look out for your son because it can be destructive. Just as much of the the pharmaceutical industry has become destructive and more focused on profit than healing, modern Psychiatry can do a lot of damage as well.

[Mike]

I would give something like magnesium a try first

[DeDukshyn]

Posted by Mike (here)
I would give something like magnesium a try first

Agreed, the order of things I would try:

Magnesium glycinate, or bisglycinate specifically. Avoid magnesium oxide, as its poorly absorbed, and is usually just used for constipation.

L-Theanine, possibly in combo with magnesium and for breakthrough anxiety.

5-HTP (considering the protocol Olaf posted above)

[palehorse]

What came to mind now, those products usually body builders use it, like whey protein or mass gainer, they usually have all the micro nutrients the body needs. it is not a substitute for real food of course, but it helps with the intake of those amino hard to find in average diets, and it is all in one sort of deal, then no need to pick all the nutrients one by one, it can be daunting. I myself used whey protein in the past and I am thinking of start using again, instead of multivitamins like centrum or similar, one can take small doses like I did and I am not a body builder, I do not even go to a gym, but i do outdoor exercises every day
If decide to go that way, buy from a recognized lab (I won't indicate any, because I do not want to sound like I am sales person haha), there is many fake stuffs out there, specially the ones made in china (literally crap in a beautiful package). The ones from EU - France and Portugal are great, US also has very good stuff ( just have sure it is made in US and not packed in US ).
Read the aminogram table and everything that contains in it such as all vitamins, etc.., only best brands will provide a full report of the nutrients, avoid buying in marketplaces like Amazon, get it from the source, or official retailers.

Always remember that amino acids are building blocks of proteins.

Oh, very important notice: Some of whey proteins products they contain creatine in their formula, and it is NOT indicated to kids, not at all. But there is brands which do not include the creatine, that's why it is important to buy from a good brand, because they provide all the accurate information, just like a drug from pharmacy.

[Metalaane]

I'm something of a "supplonaut". Kind of like a psychonaut, but concerning non-hallucinogenic substances. If nobody has ever said "supplonaut" in all of time then I am coining the term, thank you very much. Anyways, I've used 5-HTP a lot. It's a part of my 2-in-1 nootropic/antidepressant stack of over the counter (mostly...) supplements.

I'd actually made quite a write up about it in a subreddit and I'd really just be rehashing what I said if I'd retold it, so apologies for the lazy man's copypaste. It's not primarily about 5-HTP however I dare to say you'll hopefully find all the details useful in regards to your son's challenges. I'd rank the 5-HTP fairly high too in regards to what to prioritize.


Above all else, though, eat as nutritiously as you can, combine it with intermittent fasting, and exercise plenty. That's the ground floor and no amount of Joe Rogan Alpha Brain pills or whatever is going to do much for anyone if they're eating McDonald's every day.

These are all things you can find in a supplement store like Vitamin Shoppe or General Nutrition Centers. A couple of them are pretty niche and the low-payed, low-caring sales rep might not be caring enough to even know they have that stuff in their inventory. They probably do, though, at least in my area. I'd know because I used to be a store manager for a General Nutrition Center. New Zealand? No idea if they ship to New Zealand if you'd buy online.
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Creatine Monohydrate. You have likely heard of this for weight lifting or body building but the *only* thing it does is provide your body with more ATP, your ultimate source of energy. Your *brain* included. A lack of ATP can bottleneck basically every process in the body, including proper neurotransmitter function, so there's basically no reason anybody would **not** take it. It's the most studied and safest clinically proven supplement out there.

Vitamin D-3. Not technically an antidepressant however it is pretty essential and a deficiency of it can cause lowered mood and memory. This is the basis for Seasonal Affective Disorder, but you less so need sun and more so need the vitamin. It is basically impossible to get enough vitamin D from sunlight during winter in North America (and its longitudal counterparts across sea).


St. John's Wort can be found in capsule form. This is a **monoamine oxidaze inhibitor** and thusly inhibits the reuptake of dopamine, serotonin, and adrenal neurotransmitters. MAOIs used to be the prevalent prescription pharmaceutical antidepressants, however the active ingredient in this herb is, of course, natural. It's far more mild compared to the pharmaceuticals. This synergizes with your fasting because your adrenal neurotransmitters that keep you mentally engaged elevate as you fast.

Green Tea Extract/EGCG. This targets adrenal neurotransmitters in particular and so it once again synergizes your fasting as well as acts like a partner to the Wort.

L-Tyrosine. This is the amino acid that your body produces dopamine with. You could be deficient in it or your brain could reuptake it quicker than it should. So, this will provide what it needs to manufacture the dopamine -- and the Wort will inhibit its reuptake.

5-HTP/L-Trytophan. This is what your body produces serotonin with. Same exact deal as the L-Tyrosine. This means this and the three above are a great combination.

Caffeine! It produces dopamine in of itself, and plenty of people love coffee or tea, so they get even more dopamine just from the taste (but the coffee or tea would have to be **plain** if you drink them during your fasting window). If you're taking the things about, particularly the Wort and Green Tea Extract, I recommend you steer clear from **green tea** and instead go for other teas or black coffee. EGCG is the active ingredient in green tea extract that blocks the reuptake of your adrenal neurotransmitters. Overdoing this EGCG can tip you from being mentally alert and into anxiety. You could swap out the green tea extract for drinking green tea, but coffee will have more caffeine. So it's quite the personal preference here.

L-Theanine. This amino acid helps with relaxation yet doesn't make you sleepy at improper times. It helps to counterbalance potential anxiety if the adrenal help from the above things is erring into anxiety. Green tea **also** has L-theanine though (but probably **not** the extract). If you're on a budget, green tea may be the way to go as it's something of a 3-for-1 here.

Ashwagandha. This helps with stress as well but acts on different pathways which means that it's not risking diminished returns with the L-Theanine. Can also help to promote serotonin production as well. Be careful with this one though and don't be taking extra throughout the day. Stick to your doses -- whoever predecided the dose irrelevant. Too much can cause anhedonia which is a lack of pleasure from things. I ran up against that once and it's not fun. I felt like a soulless husk for a little while until I figured out what I did to myself.

Acetyl-L-carnitine. This is good for depression as well but to my understanding the science is still fuzzy on what exactly it's doing on the front. Also good for cognition and general mental acuity.

​
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Now with all that said...I am not a psychiatrist, dietician, or have any piece of paper verifying I know things. I'm just an oddball on a wyrd corner of the net. I do, however, know what these substances do for me, and I learned about them from other people saying these substances do the same things to them as well -- which means I'm not alone in the data I provide!


I've also had a few friends try out combinations of these things per my own suggestion and they've been impressed with the results as well. If your son has bipolar tendencies, though, then you'll want to put in extra due diligence when doing your own research, because sometimes but not frequently, these things send my mania into overdrive.

Since you're on Avalon, in this place I'll tell people that I don't find it to be a bad thing inherently. It's one of the ways I connect to "Something Higher" because I get some PROFOUND thoughts at times. It is a fine line, however, between the Mystic and the Psychotic if you asked Joseph Campbell and though I enjoy taking risks I am not at all encouraging you to do the same with you or your ilk!

[waxamillionpehhgasus]

Drugs (or "supplements" if you want to call them that) aren't going to stop a teenager from having anxiety unless you give him some potent stuff so that he is literally intoxicated. The cause of his anxiety is almost certainly entirely mental. Help him find and address the source of it if you want to help him. But, since he's a teenager, he probably won't listen/talk to you much, so maybe just recommend (or enforce? depending on age) less social media, way more exercise, and perhaps a tiny bit of meditation, which will set the stage for him to figure out the source of it himself. My 2c

[Perdido]

March 2021 I came across an Oil Bases B-1 = "Benfotiamine ", which works on Nerve Damage.

I tried 250mg at bedtime and awoke the next morning more focused, alert and motivated to get things done, as it works on Brain Nerves.

Recommended dose is 250-600 mg 2X/day.

It is absorbed in the fat in the body, like the brain.. and thus has longer to work.

Benfotiamine an Oil Based B-1 - Summary

https://www.benfocomplete.com/pages/...omplete-faqs?c

It helps reduce the pain and discomfort of neuropathy, sciatica, retinopathy, vascular health, general nerve health, improved blood pressure, general cellular protection, anti-aging, fibromyalgia, prevention of lactic acidosis, and treatment for Alzheimer’s disease.


How does it work?
Benfotiamine is believed to enhance in humans the activity of the enzyme transketolase, which converts harmful glucose metabolites at
the cellular level into harmless chemicals, preventing damage, especially to the endothelial cells which line the small arteries and capillaries of the kidneys and retinas.

The original U.S. patent for benfotiamine scientifically documents that the compound is far less toxic than thiamine hydrochloride itself (vitamin B-1). Another study concluded that benfotiamine is 30 times less toxic than acetaminophen (the active ingredient in Tylenol).

... Because diabetics are less able to absorb thiamine, one study found that they have about 70 percent less thiamine than the average person.

Nearly every cell in the body uses Vitamin B1 to convert food into energy, and it’s also vital for normal nerve, brain, and heart function. For patients with diabetes who are more susceptible to nerve damage, thiamine has been shown to protect the nerves against damage due to excess blood sugar.

Getting sufficient thiamine

Since the human body doesn’t produce its own thiamine, diabetic patients must consume the vitamin through foods like nuts, unprocessed whole grains, asparagus, peas, and meats. ...

Research has found that Benfotiamine, a man-made form of thiamine, is better suited to the human body than average B1 supplements because it is fat-soluble. This allows excess amounts of the vitamin to be stored in the body’s fat cells and released as needed over time.
--

[Perdido]

More info on Benfotiamine.. B-1

This is AWESOME. Wow.

This also works at keeping excess sugar down so as not to feed cancer..
Take ALA .. Alpha Lipoic Acid daily too.

Reduced inflammation and improved blood vessel function

This helps Nerve PAIN .. and Concentration

Oil Based B-1 works longer in the body.. as it is stored in fatty tissue.. like the BRAIN.

I am not a diabetic, but it helped me.. I have been taking it for a year now.. generally 2 times a day.. I noticed a difference the 1st morning after taking it.. I was more alert, clear headed.. less brain fog and focused to get things done.

Previously I researched it for a friend in Thailand and knew it helps alcoholics foot nerve pain..

Another friend.. a retired pilot.. who has had Diabetes for at least the last 4 years.. but would not listen to a thing I told him .. called and said it had Nerve Damage in his foot now.. Duh.. I warned him.. So I said.. I know the solution... and will send you notes.. but I wanted to read over them 1st to make sure it was a good article..

Wow.. This helps with numerous types of pain.. as it works on the nerve health... for the brain, etc..

I had used it on my foot a couple of years ago.. and less than half a bottle solved the problem.. So I had some.. grabbed and and took 1 pill..

The way it works is.. Diabetics can not process sugar.. and it backs up and damages the nerve.. (somehow?) The OIL BASED B-1 IN THIS.. PROCESS THE EXCESS SUGAR AND MOVES IT AWAY FROM THE NERVES.

I suggest trying Life Extension Brand - Mega Benfotiamine 250 mg.
There are some others of 300 mg online.

10 Surprising Health Benefits of Benfotiamine – with Mechanisms

https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/heal...-benfotiamine/

Benfotiamine is a synthetic version of thiamine, also known as vitamin B1, which is essential for many of the body’s functions including strengthening the immune system and protecting the brain. Benfotiamine is especially useful for protecting the body from the harmful byproducts of too much sugar and improving symptoms of diabetes and Alzheimer’s disease.

Benfotiamine works by:

Activating the enzyme transketolase, a necessary part of the pentose phosphate pathway that turns sugars into sources of energy instead of harmful advanced glycation end-products (AGEs) [R, R, R, R]

Changing the production of specific enzymes (Nos3, PKB/Akt) to increase cell regeneration and reduce cell death [R, R, R, R]

Altering how energy is used in cells to enhance healthy growth and suppress cancerous growth [R, R, R]

Decreasing inflammation in brain cells and white blood cells [R, R]

Inhibiting the GSK3b gene, which improves brain health [R, R]

Inhibiting the NOX4 gene, which improves the breakdown of sugar in muscles [R].

[Johnnycomelately]

Posted by Violet3 (here)
Hi there
As a retired social worker who worked as a counsellor on and off I can offer that CBT is known to be effective for assisting with management of symptoms of anxiety including panic attacks, so it is good to try that out especially if your son 'clicks' with the Therapist. Otherwise find someone he likes or respects, as the relationship is itself therapeutic. It is also helpful if you yourself don't panic but stay calm and do whatever supports you.
Re 5HTTP I have no experience but in my opinion as it is a serotonin precursor, naturally produced in the body, it could be helpful if for some reason he is not producing enough. If it does not help, it won't hurt him, as long as it is not used long term. Long term use of things that the healthy body should produce actually inhibits production, but as a shorter term strategy it is worth a try. See if after a week he thinks it helps. Consulting a Naturopath would also perhaps help to refine what natural substances might be more targeted to help.

Long term, understanding the source of the anxiety and gaining the capacity to manage or overcome it is what helps, along with friends and positive prospects in life, love and support.
So many young people are anxious these days, for obvious reasons, especially the sensitive ones. I feel for them.
Best wishes to you, Scorpio Girl.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)
I dont use it now but I have found it very effective in the past for depression and also helps to fall to sleep. Much better as far as side effects compared to SSRI's etc. Make sure you get the natural 5http from the griffonia seed and not the synthetic versions. Definitely give it a go. Exercise is very important as well, if he doesn't already perhaps find him something he can enjoy while getting fit, both physically and mentally. Of course take a close look at his diet, cut down on sugar and caffeine. Best of luck to your son.

Yes definitely exercise helps a lot, good point.

I don’t know about that stuff, and CBD hasn’t worked for me. So all I can recommend is Sativa THC. And skateboarding, cruiser style at least (my thing, standard double-kicktail shortboard with big soft fat wheels tucked in there, riser pads for wheelbite and non-skate-industry sealed bearings). Skating provides exercise but also lessons and constant practice on judgement and vigilance. I skate all year round here, only stopped by fresh snow or too much rainfall. Below -18C mostly solves the snow problem if cars have been, and oiling worn (sloppy) bearings with good engine oil helps much against wet.