Theosophy

[Bo Atkinson]

Posted by Journeyman (here)

I guess my question, which could already be answered above but I'm too idiotic to grasp it, is does Theosophy represent a good pathway today for the spiritual novice from a Western background? Or is it very much of its time and one would be better advised looking either direct to the source of Eastern thinking, or direct to the source itself by looking within? The latter was where my own research was leading me, because there appears to be a morass of deception, twisting of sources etc etc in almost every direction I look.

I would answer that as long as a study, any study, supports the emotional drive to keep a serious search going, it will be well energized and yield something sought for. In our time, we are past that earlier stage where you were forced to subscribe to institutional venues, for guidance, and we are now freed to use self-guidance, where we are responsible. When that is ready, the experience will come.

I bought a whole bunch of alternative knowledge books, from spiritual to scientific, from the arts to the ethics, way back in the early 1970s, costing months of pay at my laborer's wage. Settling down on to the land, getting away from the urban and suburban, just near the edge of organic nature, and all kinds of alternative tech was important too. I was a high school grad a few years before that, trying to get free of the draft, (Viet Nam War).

My twenties were too young to orient myself, to avoid the pit falls and even in my sixties I was still diving in head first to see what could be found anywhere. Absolutism was increasingly avoided. Finally I got into meditating on Socrates' idea, of knowing that he knew nothing worth knowing. Finding what really works well inside, and what answers lastingly was wanted.

Balancing all sides of life seemed key, but the counterbalances were always hard to gauge. Internet searching was quite limited in scope until maybe 2010, at least for me. Possibly I searched the wrong words, and definitely the wrong experiences sometimes. But wrong experiences can be very educational. "Dare to be naive", as a great author once said.

The needed scientist in me was on one shoulder and the mystic on the other. So long as the teachings developed something helpful, I held on to that plow. I always dropped away when higher truths seemed to leak in from elsewhere, because I kept verifiable mental records of origins and sequences.

[shaberon]

Posted by Journeyman (here)
I guess my question, which could already be answered above but I'm too idiotic to grasp it, is does Theosophy represent a good pathway today for the spiritual novice from a Western background? Or is it very much of its time and one would be better advised looking either direct to the source of Eastern thinking, or direct to the source itself by looking within? The latter was where my own research was leading me, because there appears to be a morass of deception, twisting of sources etc etc in almost every direction I look.

All of these?

HPB states that her inner doctrines are from the direct apostolic descendants of the original Vedic Rishis.

Everything in yoga is based from you discovering within.


Nothing spiritual is new, and so it depends on what it means to consider ourselves Western. I physically am. Recently I came across an article I had not minded before. She is rebutting a Russian critic. It is generally true that the original Theosophical Society and its literature were not widely received in Russia. She says at the end:



Finally, he would understand that the Key to Theosophy does not contain any special teaching, but is simply an attempt to correct some of the rather wild ideas held by the public concerning certain beliefs of the Asiatic mystics, and the Theosophical Society. I will say more: he would have been convinced that not only Christian Fellows continue—in spite of their fellowship—to look upon Christ as a God descended on Earth, but that even Theosophists who are Buddhists, Brahmins, Parsees and Mussulmans look upon him as a great Arhat and Prophet.


This is from several pages where she is defending accusations of Neo-Buddhism where, despite the lack of many Russian warm sentiments, she mostly sides with Orthodoxy:


...if our critic had studied the Theosophical teachings half as well as he has studied Papism and Judaism, he would easily have succeeded in the difficult task of writing about the meaning of our teachings. Then he would probably have abstained from writing about the Key to Theosophy, since he would have understood that this book was not written for Russia––the only country where the pure ideal of Christ is still preserved; and knowing this he would have understood for whose benefit I was quoting the Gospel precept concerning the tree that is known by its fruit The Key has been written by me for countries where such things are possible as the Salvation Army, with its wild street howlings and song themes from the repertoire of operettas, and where the name of the “beautiful Helen” is changed to the name of Him they call the Son of God; for a country where at the present moment there are not less than sixteen incarnations of Christ, from the Reverend Missionary Schweinfurt, to Kennedy, a former thief from a reformatory, and now recognized by the Connecticut sectarians as a Messiah; it was written for pseudo-Christian countries like England and America...



Theosophy invents nothing, but tries to sift inner truth from superstition in every tradition. Also in this article, she gives information which says that most Buddhists are not particularly learned in the Puranas:



I will not dwell on such insignificant trifles as, for instance, the distortion of my name which, though he refers to me as “a very well-known author,” is given by the critic as Blavazky instead of Blavatsky; nor will I emphasize such errors in translation as for instance the rendering of Isis Unveiled as “Isis Without Veil,” even though this shows a lack of knowledge of the English language. I will devote but a word or two to the fact that our critic assures the public, as if in defense of “Mrs. Blavazky,” that she could not have “invented the Tibetan brotherhood or the spiritual order of the Khe-langs” (?!), as the missionary Huc furnishes “positive and reliable information” about them in a book written by him “more than thirty years before the formation of the Theosophical Society.” In answer to this, I will take the liberty to ask our critic where he has read or heard that Mongolian Khe-langs, Lamaist-Buddhists, have ever been referred to as “Mahâtmans” by proud Brâhmanas? Have I not stated in my letters, From the Caves and Jungles of Hindostan, that the one whom we recognize as our chief teacher (and whom Hindus recognize as a Mahâtman) is a Râjput by birth, and therefore belongs to the caste of Kshatriyas or warriors? There are other Râja-Yogins known to us, Brâhmanas and Himâlayan ascetics, mystics of various nations, among whom are some Mongolians, but of course they are not Khe-langs. How could, not only Khe-langs, but even Hutuktus and Hubilkhans (the incarnations of various Buddhas and Bodhisattvas) teach us anything else but Lamaist-Buddhism? This is no place to speak of our teachers; for one reason, because of the only truth expressed by Mr. Solovyov, namely that, though the relations between us and our “hidden inspirers in the distant Orient cover nothing prejudicial,” yet it would be better “if this mysterious relationship remained secret.” Very true, especially as this relationship is apt to incite personal ambition in the West, and give rise to selfish intrigues (even in Russia) among pseudo-Theosophists who have turned into unscrupulously lying and confirmed enemies of the Theosophical Society and especially of me, its “scapegoat,” because of their failure and the refusal of the Mahâtmas to provide them with money for various ventures.


The article also tells us that the Warrior Kings held the most secret or Upanishadic literature, especially Janaka Videha, King of Mithila, father of Sita of the Ramayana.


This is like a typical day, she has to defend from an arrogant "expert" while her own house is full of thieves, there is so much more blame and controversy than actually heeding the main subjects she is getting at.


She was so prolific that the index is over six hundred pages.

Most of it is probably the best way to get acquainted with any subject under the sun.

In the long run, I personally suggest getting into whichever of the practices one can connect to. Because I personally have experienced Orthodoxy, and, at almost every turn, HPB throws in some kind of reference to Pauline or esoteric Christianity, I can say there is something here I have not found elsewhere. It is possible that very minor forms such as Coptic, Thomasene, etc., may convey the same type of power. I am not sure.



The distinction of Elementals and Elementaries distinguishes common Christian theology from Nepalese Buddhism and Kabala:


From the standpoint of certain Buddhist schools, your correspondent may be right. Their philosophy teaches that even our visible universe assumed an objective form as a result of the fancy followed by the volition or the will of the unknown and supreme adept, differing from Christian theology, however, inasmuch as they teach that instead of calling out our universe from nothingness, he had to exercise this will upon pre-existing matter, eternal and indestructible as to invisible substance, though temporary and ever-changing as to forms. Some higher and still more subtle metaphysical schools of Nepal even go so far as to affirm—on very reasonable grounds too—that this pre-existing and self-existent substance or matter (Svabhavat) is itself without any other creator or ruler; when in the state of activity it is Pravritti, a universal creating principle; when latent and passive, they call this force Nivritti. As for something eternal and infinite, for that which had neither beginning nor end, there can be neither past nor future, but everything that was and will be, IS, therefore there never was an action or even thought, however simple, that is not impressed in imperishable records on this substance called by the Buddhists Svabhavat, by the Kabalists astral light. As in a faithful mirror this light reflects every image, and no human imagination could see anything outside that which exists impressed somewhere on the eternal substance. To imagine that a human brain can conceive of anything that was never conceived of before by the “universal brain,” is a fallacy, and a conceited presumption. At best, the former can catch now and then stray glimpses of the “eternal thought” after these have assumed some objective form, either in the world of the invisible or visible universe.


I have not gotten a Kabalistic system to work very much; Buddhism, so to speak, gives back what you put into it.

I have accomplished yoga by what Buddhism calls "the energy of the centers", which I am trying to reform by following the Noumenal Path. That is why I would say that if you get near any Sanskrit Hinduism even if just Om or Soham Hamsa and it starts doing anything, you need a good guide.

None of the Catholics or Jews I have known believed everything, or agreed with very much, of what came from their respective officials, and was supposed to be represented in their spiritual services.


I am willing to say that original Theosophy of Blavatsky and the Mahatmas is reliable, that Orthodox Hesychasm will get you to Heaven, Aryan Yoga will Liberate you from Form altogether, and that Buddhist Yoga will make you a Buddha.

When I look for some of our Buddhist deities in India, I get pages of phone numbers for black magic.

In western territories, things like Orthodoxy and Buddhism are just mission work. If possible, one may as well physically visit whatever is in range, after an initial review. For example you might come to a wing of T'ai Chi, and even that is beneficial. If something is purifying and beneficial, then it can at least be tolerated and examined.

[Journeyman]

Many thanks all! Much to ponder...

Posted by onawah (here)
That "morass of deception" is why I found Zen and Taoism in their purest form to be very appealing.
They push the practicioner directly into experiencing, not thinking.
Once you have a truly revelatory experince, so many questions are answered.

Given I'm dragging my trained mind kicking and screaming away from the materialist mindset, some kind of confirmatory experience would be life changing and hopefully would give renewed impetus to continue progress/enquiry. Whereas at present I drift in and out of considering these matters. Meditation etc is not coming easily, surrounded as I am with distraction and the like.

Posted by wavydome (here)
I would answer that as long as a study, any study, supports the emotional drive to keep a serious search going, it will be well energized and yield something sought for. In our time, we are past that earlier stage where you were forced to subscribe to institutional venues, for guidance, and we are now freed to use self-guidance, where we are responsible. When that is ready, the experience will come.

I bought a whole bunch of alternative knowledge books, from spiritual to scientific, from the arts to the ethics, way back in the early 1970s, costing months of pay at my laborer's wage. Settling down on to the land, getting away from the urban and suburban, just near the edge of organic nature, and all kinds of alternative tech was important too. I was a high school grad a few years before that, trying to get free of the draft, (Viet Nam War).

My twenties were too young to orient myself, to avoid the pit falls and even in my sixties I was still diving in head first to see what could be found anywhere. Absolutism was increasingly avoided. Finally I got into meditating on Socrates' idea, of knowing that he knew nothing worth knowing. Finding what really works well inside, and what answers lastingly was wanted.

Balancing all sides of life seemed key, but the counterbalances were always hard to gauge. Internet searching was quite limited in scope until maybe 2010, at least for me. Possibly I searched the wrong words, and definitely the wrong experiences sometimes. But wrong experiences can be very educational. "Dare to be naive", as a great author once said.

The needed scientist in me was on one shoulder and the mystic on the other. So long as the teachings developed something helpful, I held on to that plow. I always dropped away when higher truths seemed to leak in from elsewhere, because I kept verifiable mental records of origins and sequences.

I wish I'd started sooner. I think I spent my twenties repressing any kind of deeper thinking. None of the religion I grew up with made any impact whatsoever, other than encouraging me to dismiss the entire question. A strict materialist outlook was comforting I think. I'd got the merest glimpse of the darkness at the top of the world in my early 20s and I turned away and tried to ignore it and the implications thereof. Think I was happier to think of it as a very well organised mafia and ignore the implications of the signs of a darker theology at work. Ironically as that position became harder to maintain I was forced to look at the entire question of what this world and our place in it really is. I think we've been steered away from those questions and myself, as an avid consumer of the programming for many years, maybe more than most. Now I have to fight the negative assumptions that whatever spiritual sense I have has atrophied through non-use as well as the feeling I tried to articulate above that it's difficult to find any one path that doesn't seem to have been laced with a trap or misdirection.

Posted by shaberon (here)

All of these?

...In western territories, things like Orthodoxy and Buddhism are just mission work. If possible, one may as well physically visit whatever is in range, after an initial review. For example you might come to a wing of T'ai Chi, and even that is beneficial. If something is purifying and beneficial, then it can at least be tolerated and examined.

I'll have to think on some of this post before attempting a coherent reply but on your last point, I do like the idea of something practical. I'm not a 'joiner' particularly although up until the pandemic shut everything down I was doing hatha yoga classes 2 or 3 times a week, but with little to no understanding / spiritual engagement with the forms and the underlying grounding. It just felt like a good way of getting more limber and less alienated from my aging rather stiff body. Maybe restarting that with a bit more focus could help, or a family member has taken up Qigong so that's been something I've been considering also.

Thanks again all.

[shaberon]

Posted by Journeyman (here)
I'm not a 'joiner' particularly although up until the pandemic shut everything down I was doing hatha yoga classes 2 or 3 times a week, but with little to no understanding / spiritual engagement with the forms and the underlying grounding. It just felt like a good way of getting more limber and less alienated from my aging rather stiff body. Maybe restarting that with a bit more focus could help, or a family member has taken up Qigong so that's been something I've been considering also.

Surprisingly the first thing identifiable as a Hatha Yoga text is Buddhist.

These days there are many different kinds which may mean different things.

One cannot do Noumenal Yoga without a certain suppleness and pliancy of the material body. We want it to feel noticeably light, as if lifted up. Although not all of the Historical Buddhas spent all their time in Nepal, they were also in neighboring Bihar. One of the mountains there has caves with hot springs that were used as a spa and exercise area by the Buddhas of the Past and their disciples.

And so everyone needs something to help keep them fit.

I consider those things kind of a separate category.


Although Indians are generally taught to reject or ignore Buddhism, when it comes to the subject of Yoga, they paradoxically accept that Buddhist yogins show similar powers as, and are as valid as, Hindus. There are various traditions about who exactly they were, most frequently summarized as Eighty-four Mahasiddhas.


The primary crossroads is in Nath, where we can usually find about four of these Hindus also becoming Buddhist. In the Buddhist traditions, most of the Siddhas have an identifying trait or feature, and, one of the most distinct of these is Jalandhara Natha.






Relatively modern card:







1800s Apo Manuscript following Taranatha:









1600s Drukpa Kagyu of Hemis Monastery, Ladakh:







Hemis participates in the Mani Rimdu Mask Dance Festival.

Usually those biographies are filled with all kinds of bizarre feats. But Jalandhara is basically just about yoga meditation:


Born and raised as a Brahmin in Turkara City, Jalandhara one day became disgusted with the world he saw around him and renounced his worldly life to meditate in a charnel ground. He entered a state of heightened consciousness and heard the voice of a Dakini coming out of the sky saying he was to learn about absolute truth. He continually called in prayer to the Dakini until eventually, she appeared before him. She gave him the initiation into the practices of the Hevajra Tantra and instructions on Perfection Stage yoga, telling him to meditate on the indivisibility of appearance and emptiness. Jalandhara did these practices for seven years and achieved the ultimate realization, Mahamudra. He spent the rest of his life working selflessly for the good of all beings until he entered the pure realm of Khechari [Vajrayogini] accompanied by three hundred students. (Abhayadatta Tradition, folio 193).



Jalandhara was a few generations before Tilo, the nominal head of the Kagyu lineage. He never said anything like "I am starting the Kagyu school", but, the reason he is the oldest Indian directly named, is because several lineages, Jalandhara and others, converge in him, and it is this convergence which is represented as crossing the mountains and becoming Tibetan in the hands of Marpa the Translator.


Allright. So, for example, Jalandhara achieved a state of altered consciousness that Jung did not. This is evasive to most otherwise would-be yogins. He wrote a few higher tantric commentaries; anything intermediate?

Sri-mahakarunikabhiseka-prakaranopadesa-nama


Mahakarunika is the overall song cycle of Avalokiteshvara and of Tara in Lotus Family. Avalokiteshvara has a standard song played in many recordings; here is a Chinese girl who made a sped-up dance version:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=0ahW_co1CQ4

It obviously is not a very meditative version, but, we want sounds that cover all dynamic ranges.

Jalandhara has something else that sounds transitional and semi-tantric:


Humkara-citta-bindu-bhavana-krama-nama



That has to do with the syllable Hum (pronounced "hoom"), Citta or Mind, Bindu or energy point or atom. Buddhism says that the real Citta lives in the Heart. So this must be an alteration of regular brain consciousness. I have never read this text and I doubt I could even find it, but, here he has clearly honed in on the main meditative doctrine to do away with intellectual and ungrounded drifting.

The other thing we may notice is that his Initiation came straight from some Dakini.



So Jalandhara was a rapid summary of yogic power.




This is less of a direct response but is related information:

As this system goes forward, it passes through the hands of someone who is at least of interest to me personally. Ratnakarasanti or Santipa was the eleventh-century bastion of Yogacara, or, particularly, of Asanga's Yogacara. In consequence, he makes quite possibly the smoothest and most elegant Sutra-to-Tantra system, or the most accurate towards Mahayana. Although he is not a total mystery, he has been somewhat suppressed and left out of the lineages. In fact his story in the Eighty-four Mahasiddhas is almost an insult that is not even realistic.

His perhaps heretical teaching was that divinity is immanent and accessible. And yet I saw recently that Ratnakarasanti's Hevajra empowerment is being streamed/recorded for use today. Yet he has rarely been credited or included in any lineages. For instance, the lineage for Marpa or Bowl Hevajra according to Himalayan Art:

Vajradhara, Jnana Dakini, Bodhivajra Garbha, Arya Nagarjuna, Aryadeva, Candrakirti, Matangipa, Tailo Prajnabhadra, Naro Jnana Siddhi, Marpa Lotsawa Chokyi Lodro, etc.


This is the same as what Gelug calls its Guhyasamaja lineage. That is why they have nothing unique or special. It is Kagyu Mahamudra and Hevajra. This is where we argue that it is not the same as Sutra Nagarjuna, or, at least is a reincarnation at a much later time.

According to Takpo Tashi Namgyal:

The tradition of the Kagyu mahamudra expounded here derives from the great Indian masters Asanga, KamalaSila, Santipa, and Saraha. The educated reader will be able to discern that this system incorporates elements of the yogacara, madhyamaka, and vajrayana schools.

Santipa has an article on Guru Yoga with several references, including Ratnolka Dharani.





For the Two Armed Sahaja Hevajra according to H. E. Garchen Rinpoche:

This particular empowerment ritual stems from the transmission lineage of the great accomplished master Shantipa, the lineage gurus of the innate Hevajra with consort, according to the transmission lineage of Lord Drikungpa, and his disciples is as follows: Buton Rinchen transmitted the lineage to his heart’s son Rinchen Namgyal then it was transmitted through the scholar, Chandrakirti, the master Yeshe Gyamtso, the venerable Khyenrab Chojin, Lama Rinchen Gyelpo, the mahasiddha Pema Garwang...


So wherever it came from, they say Ratnakarasanti's Hevajra entered Drikung Kagyu.

Jigten Sumgon the first Drikungpa is mostly associated with Phagmo Dru:


The glorious Phagmodrupa had five hundred disciples who possessed the white umbrella; but, as he said again and again, his successor would be an Upasaka who has attained the tenth level of a Bodhisattva...[this being Jigten Sumgon, who] At the time of the Buddha Shakyamuni, he appeared as the stainless Licchavi, who was inseparable from the Buddha himself. Later, he was born as the Acharya Nagarjuna...From Lama Lhopa Dorje Nyingpo, he received the teachings of Guhyasamaja and others.


Phagmo Dru [1110-1170], who influenced the beginning of Drikung, was one of the three main disciples of Gampopa.

Gampo was transmitting Marpa Kagyu. So this implies that Ratnakarasanti's Hevajra passed through Marpa into the Drikung.



Ngok Jangchub Pal gave the empowerment of Hevajra Yab-Yum to the Drikung Kagyupas.

Ngok was the main Hevajra custodian from Marpa, so there is a tantric system of Marpa and Ngok:


The seven maṇḍalas of Ngok consists of:

1) the nine-deity maṇḍala of Hevajra (dgyes rdor lha dgu);

2) the fifteen-deity maṇḍala of his consort Nairātmyā (bdag med ma lha mo bco lnga);

3) the forty-nine-deity maṇḍala of Vajrapañjara (rdo rjegur rigs bsdus lha zhe dgu);

4) the seventy-seven-deity maṇḍala of Yogāmbara, the male form of Catuṣpīṭha (gdan bzhi’am rnal ’byor nam mkha’lha mang);

5) the thirteen-deity maṇḍala of Jñāneśvarī, Jñānaḍākinī, the female form of Catuṣpīṭha (ye shes dbang phyug ma lha bcu gsum);

6) the five-deity maṇḍala of Mahāmāyā (sgyu ma chen mo lha lnga);

7) the fifty-three-deity maṇḍala of Nāmasaṃgīti of the gSang ldan Tradition (’jamdpal mtshan brjod gsang ldan lugs).



According to Snow Lion:

Jamgon Kongtrul also included other important Marpa Tantric teachings such as the Chakrasamvara, Vajravarahi, Guhyasamaja, Buddhakapala, and Vajrabhairava mandalas into the Kagyu Ngak Dzod.



According to John Powers, Ratnakarasanti's Hevajra also appears to have entered Sakya:


Gonchok Gyelpo was a disciple of the translator Drokmi
(ca. 993-1077), who had traveled to Nepal and India, where he studied
Sanskrit with Santipa, one of the great masters of his day and author of a
commentary on the Hevajra Tantra. Drokmi brought the text to Tibet and
translated it, and it later became the basic text of Sakya tantric practice.

Santipa also has a Lamdre lineage in Sakya. Ngor is a monastery developed through Sakya.

Nine deity two armed Hevajra, 1300s Ngor from the tradition of Kanha:








That is the same as shown on the transmission page, which has several Sahaja Hevajras.


It also has this Santipa or Ratnakarasanti:








We might find him in a few other secluded places.

Marpa, the normative channel of Kagyu, usually has Mila and Gampo under/after him. Sometimes, Tilo and Naro are added above/before him.

Modern Drukpa Kagyu with these:






He is over Weapon Hevajra (from Samputa Tantra), and appears to have the addition of Nagarjuna and Santipa above him.

1700s Kagyu, perhaps intending Naro, Tilo, and Santipa above:








1500s Marpa and Mila with multiple Hevajras. In the lower left are Gampo and H. H. 3rd Karmapa Rangjung Dorje. Buddha is in the middle of the second tier, which includes Nagarjuna, Asanga, etc., although I cannot distinguish them:








Probably the oldest Marpa, ca. 11th-13th century. He is between some very bizarre Makara creatures I have never seen like this. Over him appears to be Cinnamasta, i. e., the three figures together:











Back in the harsh mode of the world around us, today The Saker makes more pro-Orthodox statements and refers to the lack of spiritual practices in the west, where he lives:


...until the USA is finally denazified and disarmed too. But until all of Zone A is absorbed and re-civilized by Zone B, that danger will threaten every human being on the planet...


To the demons in Washington DC we need to oppose our saints, both living and long dead.

Our most formidable weapon is not a nuke or any “Tsar-Bomba” but our modest prayer ropes.

Let’s use that most formidable weapon of ours which only we have (there is no real hesychasm in the West, and there has not been for many centuries now)...

[norman]

This guy spends 45 minutes diving into a current argument that has flared up around the meme "Christ is King" ( as being 'antisemitic'). Along the way he quotes Alice Baily and Helena Blavatsky and plays a few very choice cut clips of Alex Jones, Donny Darkened, and others.

A very fine 45 minute listen from a guy with a rare Christian intelligence that defies the common perception of 'christians' as indoctrinated gullible fools, imo.

Canary Cry Radio - Alt Faith and the Promethean Fire | FLYBY
46 min - Posted Mar 30, 2024

SHOW NOTES
The rise of Alternative Media has already began to splinter as we get pushed into Network States. Last year, our grind on Canary Cry NewsTalk began to reveal how the social engineers may be getting ready to split the Judeo-Christian ethic in America to divide us on religious and spiritual lines. In this Albert Pike-ian context for World War 3, we are witnessing the rise of what can be described as Alt Faith, where the words being used as very much rooted in traditional Christianity, yet the nuances are more akin to occult knowledge and the rebellious nature of Prometheus. In this short FlyBy, Gonz walks us through why the Daily Wire said “Christ is King” is antisemitic, why Candace Owens said “Christ Consciousness is rising” and why people like Alex Jones are marching towards the dangerous path to become tools for the Beast that will eventually destroy the Harlot in judgement, yet be thrown into the lake of fire along with the False Prophet.