Non-Vegans = People With No Empathy?

[waxamillionpehhgasus]

Most start off at a baseline of ignorance surrounding two things: 1) whether or not a vegan diet is "healthy" and 2) the realities of how meat/dairy/eggs arrive at the grocery store.

If we watch The Game Changers, a documentary about world class vegan athletes, many of them men with very large muscles and explosively powerful performance, we see that it is possible to live a VERY active and high performance lifestyle on a vegan diet for both men and women. So the idea of "vegan = unhealthy" gets hard to justify. (It is, undoubtedly, possible to experience sickness, brain fog, and a lack of energy on a vegan diet if you get deficient in a certain vitamin and mineral. But it is entirely possible to get everything you need from just plants, besides B12, as The Game Changers shows.)

Knowing this, it becomes a discussion of the health benefits of meat vs. plants, and there are actually some VERY good arguments to be made for meat. For example, ground beef has everything you need in it, and you could eat just that and survive, which is cool. Also, incorporating meat into your diet makes it far less likely that you'll get sick, since it's hard to get deficient in a certain vitamin or mineral if you are eating something that has every vitamin and mineral in it.

In a vacuum, it makes perfect sense to incorporate meat into your diet.

Meat: 1, Vegan: 0

However, once we start considering where our meat/dairy/eggs comes from in 2022 - remember, we are not our ancestors living off the land in the year B.C. 2022 - things start getting a lot murkier.

99% of people shop at the grocery store, and the grocery store is fueled by factory farms. The meat/dairy/eggs you buy at the grocery store all come from factory farms.

Factory farms are not just sometimes a little bad for the animals... they are wholesale centers of sadness, pain, and frankly, torture. Dominion is a good documentary that looks into what you, yes YOU, directly support when you buy meat/dairy/eggs from the grocery store.

These factory farms exist because people buy meat/dairy/eggs from the grocery store - so if you buy meat/dairy/eggs from the grocery store, you are putting money directly into the hand of someone who tortures animals.

It's no different from paying someone to kick a dog to death, then eating the dog, because cows, chickens, and other animals are actually on par with the intelligence of many dogs, with the difference being they can't be trained to not sh*t inside. They're as sentient as any other animal, including the dog you show love to and would never consider killing and eating for food.

Now, from here, there would usually be a discussion of whether or not it's necessary to have this evil in our world to feed the world's population - but as we see from The Game Changers, there's really no discussion to be had. You can be a beast on a vegan diet, and most people advocating against a vegan diet are not even close to the level of fitness as the athletes in The Game Changers.

Now we see that two things are undeniably true, 1) You can be very healthy on a vegan diet, with some effort and 2) When you buy meat/dairy/eggs at the grocery store, you, yes you, directly fund animal cruelty.

Therefore, once you are aware of these two facts, eating meat/dairy/eggs comes down to one thing: being OK with the wholesale torture of animals because meat/dairy/eggs are nutritionally convenient and they taste good.

Which is a pretty weak and non-empathetic mentality to have.

Can you realistically argue against this? Keep in mind that many of the anti-vegan arguments in your head are likely quite weak or founded in myth. For example...

• "Our ancestors ate meat" - yes, but they did not get their meat from factory farms like you do if you shop at the grocery store
• "Plants have feelings and emotions too" - yes, but you kill 10x fewer plants to live if you eat them directly instead of feeding them to cattle and eating the cattle
• "Being vegan isn't healthy" - it can be unhealthy if you do not stay vigilant on your micronutrient intake, but putting in a tiny bit of effort seems like a small price to pay for removing your footprint on the horrors of modern day animal farming
• Vegetable and fruit farming has its problems too - sure, but it's pretty hard to argue that harvesting a field of corn is comparable to the horrors of modern day animal farming. If you're making this argument, there's almost no chance you understand the truly gruesome reality of modern day factory farms

If you can be 100% healthy on a vegan diet (and a world class athlete at that), and yet you voluntarily choose to support factory farming by purchasing meat/dairy/eggs at the grocery store, well... that doesn't seem very cool to me.

What do you think? Am I an annoying vegan, or is my argument actually fairly sound once you give it some thought?

[Orph]

You're not annoying yet, but if you want to jump on that "I'm holier than thou because I'm a vegan" train than you can become annoying.

Look, we live in a world that is very VERY imperfect. We know that animals suffer and are treated inhumanely. That's just ONE of the very very bad things that's wrong in this world.

Can you tell me with absolute certainty that the clothes you wear all came from someplace that doesn't pollute the environment and doesn't use some type of forced or 'slave' labor? It happens. How much of Mother Earth was pillaged in order for you to live in your current place of residence? Not only the wood, but the copper piping, wiring, and literally everything else, (including your computer)? It all come's with a hurtful price. But hey, crap happens.

And what about the car you (and me) drive and all roads we drive on. Look at the price Mother Earth has to pay for us to do that. (I could go on).

Everything we do in life has detrimental effects on the world around us. Which means vegans are in up to their necks in this crap-hole just as much as everybody else. You are no better than me.

If you want to be a vegan, I'm all for it. I'm not against vegans talking about the vegan lifestyle and maybe trying to persuade non-vegans to change. Discussion is always good. But like I said, this world is far from perfect. All we can do is to look inside ourselves as our own unique individual self, and live our life as best we can. It's not our place to judge others.

I'm not a vegan, and never will be. And yes, it would be better if everyone was a vegan. Unfortunately, we aren't. And that's just the way life is. It 'aint perfect.

[Patient]

Posted by Orph (here)
You're not annoying yet, but if you want to jump on that "I'm holier than thou because I'm a vegan" train than you can become annoying.

Look, we live in a world that is very VERY imperfect. We know that animals suffer and are treated inhumanely. That's just ONE of the very very bad things that's wrong in this world.

Can you tell me with absolute certainty that the clothes you wear all came from someplace that doesn't pollute the environment and doesn't use some type of forced or 'slave' labor? It happens. How much of Mother Earth was pillaged in order for you to live in your current place of residence? Not only the wood, but the copper piping, wiring, and literally everything else, (including your computer)? It all come's with a hurtful price. But hey, crap happens.

And what about the car you (and me) drive and all roads we drive on. Look at the price Mother Earth has to pay for us to do that. (I could go on).

Everything we do in life has detrimental effects on the world around us. Which means vegans are in up to their necks in this crap-hole just as much as everybody else. You are no better than me.

If you want to be a vegan, I'm all for it. I'm not against vegans talking about the vegan lifestyle and maybe trying to persuade non-vegans to change. Discussion is always good. But like I said, this world is far from perfect. All we can do is to look inside ourselves as our own unique individual self, and live our life as best we can. It's not our place to judge others.

I'm not a vegan, and never will be. And yes, it would be better if everyone was a vegan. Unfortunately, we aren't. And that's just the way life is. It 'aint perfect.

Yes, but we have to start somewhere. So why not start with something that we are familiar with and help to educate people with something that can make a difference?

As you mentioned, there are many things that we use that cause harm to something - but people are not aware. Sharing information helps to inform people how to make the world a better place.

[Orph]

I'm all for sharing information. But the question was asked in the OP, .... was he annoying? It isn't annoying if someone is sharing information. (For instance, recipe's or other ways we can eat less meat). It becomes annoying if people start putting themselves 'above' other people.

Saying I have no empathy because I'm a non-vegan, ............ well, now you see where my initial argument comes from.

[Patient]

Posted by Orph (here)
I'm all for sharing information. But the question was asked in the OP, .... was he annoying? It isn't annoying if someone is sharing information. (For instance, recipe's or other ways we can eat less meat). It becomes annoying if people start putting themselves 'above' other people.

Saying I have no empathy because I'm a non-vegan, ............ well, now you see where my initial argument comes from.

It was a question - you can answer "No, I have empathy and I love animals too." As most meat eaters do love animals - they just do not know what farmed animals go through.

Many native cultures loved the land and the animals on it. They would kill the animal and thank it for it's sacrifice.

Many people today are so brainwashed and clueless that they will say that they do not eat cows, they eat hamburger and steaks from the grocery store.

[ExomatrixTV]

• Vegan Bodybuilders
  

Seeking size and definition, vegan bodybuilders have fuelled themselves effectively on a vegan diet. Winning titles in various different categories, they have excelled in traditional categories such as classic bodybuilding as well as figure, physique and fitness. They have years of veganism between them. Proving they can obtain not only the protein but also essential minerals from plant sources, they have caused other competitors to reconsider their nutrition. Most have been awarded Pro Cards in large established bodybuilding federations.

• source

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=2HUzxf-LPEE

[ExomatrixTV]

Long time ago I interviewed vegan Annanda Bosman in 1992 (30 years ago!) ... and I use part of his insights to build upon that a little further:

• If Aliens would have to judge humans how they treat all life on Earth especially when people do not care what happened to the animals they eat <<< just because most people assume animals to be a "lower" life-forms ... they (The Aliens) may have a case to "return the favor" using the same "logic" many humans use to justify eating animals or not even bother to justify anything. That would be the ultimate karmic mirror!

cheers,
John 🦜🦋🌳

[Patient]

Posted by ExomatrixTV (here)

• Vegan Bodybuilders
  

Seeking size and definition, vegan bodybuilders have fuelled themselves effectively on a vegan diet. Winning titles in various different categories, they have excelled in traditional categories such as classic bodybuilding as well as figure, physique and fitness. They have years of veganism between them. Proving they can obtain not only the protein but also essential minerals from plant sources, they have caused other competitors to reconsider their nutrition. Most have been awarded Pro Cards in large established bodybuilding federations.

• source

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=2HUzxf-LPEE

To expand a little on this topic....

I use a protein powder that many vegan MMA fighters use.

It is called "IronVegan Athlete's Blend". 30grams of protein per serving. (always go with vanilla flavour)

Using this before and after a workout has been very beneficial helping with muscle recovery.

[TomKat]

Posted by waxamillionpehhgasus (here)
What do you think? Am I an annoying vegan, or is my argument actually fairly sound once you give it some thought?

More than annoying, very passive agressive.

[ExomatrixTV]

Posted by TomKat (here)

Posted by waxamillionpehhgasus (here)
What do you think? Am I an annoying vegan, or is my argument actually fairly sound once you give it some thought?

More than annoying, very passive agressive.

Sarcasm at its best

Almost ... e v e r t h i n g ... can be interpreted/perceived as a "micro aggression" the moment you get annoyed about anything and let it be known to snowflakes lol

[ian33]

..i think that most people who are genetically predisposed to an omnivore diet, would prefer more humane methods than that dictated by profit at all costs, unfortunately their desires do not control big business..we do what we can, which may differ due to circumstances
..jainism is even more strict than veganism, and some would choose to chastise vegans for disturbing the soil and the things that live in it.
..breatharians take it a step further it seems..perhaps they might show some empathy for those they consider less evolved, i dont know.
..forbearance can be hard to achieve, yet another challenge in life..i certainly am not perfect by anyones standards, including my own
..no empathy is indeed an extreme, which i feel i have yet to encounter

[Journeyman]

I worked with a Jainist guy from India, it was hard work finding food for him when we were on the road. He was horrified by our diet and asked me what we (the UK pop) were thinking about the spiritual price we would pay for our habits. At the time I didn't believe in anything beyond the material and wasn't really able to answer him in anything but the most banal way. I think about the conversation differently now.

I think veganism is something to aspire to, although if you look into the negative impact that this can also have, eg soy farm led destruction of rain forests, it needs to be scrutinised to see whether the claims made for it are valid. On a practical level I have quite serious food intolerances which already limit what I can eat. Taking anything further out of my diet i something which would need serious work, a lot of the ready made replacements which vegans and vegetarians rely on simply aren't an option for me.

[Johnnycomelately]

Posted by Journeyman (here)
I worked with a Jainist guy from India, it was hard work finding food for him when we were on the road. He was horrified by our diet and asked me what we (the UK pop) were thinking about the spiritual price we would pay for our habits. At the time I didn't believe in anything beyond the material and wasn't really able to answer him in anything but the most banal way. I think about the conversation differently now.

I think veganism is something to aspire to, although if you look into the negative impact that this can also have, eg soy farm led destruction of rain forests, it needs to be scrutinised to see whether the claims made for it are valid. On a practical level I have quite serious food intolerances which already limit what I can eat. Taking anything further out of my diet i something which would need serious work, a lot of the ready made replacements which vegans and vegetarians rely on simply aren't an option for me.

I feel ya, stranger. I was a mostly-vegetarian for a couple decades plus, lapsed twice including to this day. I did that for the spirit of life of the animal kingdom. Rattles me a bit now every time I eat meat. Giving thanks is more serious now, trying not to feel like a fraud.

[Matthew]

Posted by ExomatrixTV (here)

Posted by TomKat (here)

Posted by waxamillionpehhgasus (here)
What do you think? Am I an annoying vegan, or is my argument actually fairly sound once you give it some thought?

More than annoying, very passive agressive.

Sarcasm at its best

Almost ... e v e r t h i n g ... can be interpreted/perceived as a "micro aggression" the moment you get annoyed about anything and let it be known to snowflakes lol

I'm with TomKat, it was passive aggressive, and so is your statement ExomatirixTV

[ExomatrixTV]

Posted by Matthew (here)

Posted by ExomatrixTV (here)

Posted by TomKat (here)

Posted by waxamillionpehhgasus (here)
What do you think? Am I an annoying vegan, or is my argument actually fairly sound once you give it some thought?

More than annoying, very passive agressive.

Sarcasm at its best

Almost ... e v e r t h i n g ... can be interpreted/perceived as a "micro aggression" the moment you get annoyed about anything and let it be known to snowflakes lol

I'm with TomKat, it was passive aggressive, and so is your statement ExomatirixTV

• Can HSP deal or cope with Passive Aggressiveness?

[Matthew]

Blackholes consume planets, lets campaign for that to stop.

Cats are pure evil for a vegan surely? I love cats.

You want me to be triggered for your argument to work. I only came to post here because of your passive aggressive retort. I still think you're being passive aggressive. Triggered?

[Strat]

This debate will never go away. Every person should just do their due diligence to see what diet works best for their body. Many vegans, such as the OP, are approaching dieting from perceived empathy first and physical performance second. Nothing wrong with that, whatever floats your boat. I don't think he's being passive aggressive and even if he is I have a thick skin and I don't care. Bigger fish to fry in life than arguing with a dude on the net about what kind of sandwich I'm going to eat later.

One thing I tend to notice is dieting quickly turns into a debate like politics or religion, people get heated quick. The body is a complex machine and nobody has all the answers. I think it works best if we exchange ideas like non biased scientists rather than passionately evangelize our beliefs.

Also read, read, and read. Documentaries should be reserved as inspiration, not sources to quote. Watching a documentary and suddenly changing your way of life without further research is in my mind the equivalent to succumbing to a magic trick or jedi mind trick. The more educated you are the more immune you are to having your opinion swayed in an hour and a half.

[Frankie Pancakes]