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Thread: What is Time?

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    United States Avalon Member Casey Claar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is Time?

    Thank you, Mike.. I am a fan of brilliant minds and will certainly queue them up. ( excellent ).
    "Love is what is left when you let go of everything you no longer need." —Raj

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    ...

    ... at the bottom of it, it is a rate of change within a space which therefore describes motion. Therefore any space/density/dimension which contains any frequency/vibration can't help but have "Time" included in the very construct of that space/density/dimension (the rolling marble).

    As for the disappearing marble, well, one could say it got uncreated then got re-created in a different position in a specific space, without any motion, i.e. without "time"... and that gets us into the quantum entanglement of instantaneous communication between particles across any distance within a space... and that's where I quit understanding anything

    However, there are énergumènes like Clif High who posit that the physical universe gets created/uncreated/re-created every 23-ish trillionth of a second to generate the illusion of continuity of motion or immobility, solidity or fluidity. But that implies the existence of a consciousness vibrating at that rate between no space (uncreated or out of that space) and space (recreated)... and I don't think I understand that stroboscopic material/solid holographic physical motion picture very adequately.

    But, if true, considering the vastness of this universe, imagining the equivalent vastness of the consciousness holding all of it together in perfect functioning order is worthy of utter awe.

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    There is an outstanding book by English physicist Paul Davies titled “About Time”. I highly recommend it.

    He is an acclaimed professor of physics and the author of many books on physics and related topics. He has an amazing ability to take very esoteric and complicated concepts of physics and put them into layperson terms.

    His book About Time is a real page turner and thought provoker.

    Another of his great books is “The Mind of God”.

    On a lighter note I believe it is comedian and deep thinker Steven Wright who said “Time is God’s way of making sure everything doesn’t happen all at once.”

    But I’ll bet many physicists will disagree with that.

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    Quote Posted by Satori (here)
    There is an outstanding book by English physicist Paul Davies titled “About Time”. I highly recommend it.

    He is an acclaimed professor of physics and the author of many books on physics and related topics. He has an amazing ability to take very esoteric and complicated concepts of physics and put them into layperson terms.

    His book About Time is a real page turner and thought provoker.

    Another of his great books is “The Mind of God”.

    On a lighter note I believe it is comedian and deep thinker Steven Wright who said “Time is God’s way of making sure everything doesn’t happen all at once.”

    But I’ll bet many physicists will disagree with that.
    The 1st pdf is in avalonlibrary.net
    • PDF: “About Time,” by Paul Davies
    • EPUB, MOBI or PDF: “The Mind of God: The Scientific Basis for a Rational World," by Paul Davies

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    The issue I have with such questions is that they presuppose that we know what the chosen concept means. In other words: we think that we know what the word "time" means, and going from there, we try to understand what that what we mean when we use the word "time" is. It is however very questionable whether we know what the word "time" means.

    To provide an analogy to what I "mean", I suggest we start from pondering about something more tangible. We all know what "chair" means. After all it is something highly "concrete", so we are able to point at the object in order to clarify what we mean when we talk about a "chair". When we shift outside of the Western world however, we notice that the objects called "chair" start varying considerably from what we call a "chair" normally. And that, of course, is also reflected by the language. Won’t we say, for instance, that a "chair" is an object we "sit" on? That will be the associated verb in practically all Indo-European and Semitic languages. In Japanese however, though being the language of a highly evolved "modern" civilisation, what we "sit on" is rather the floor, and a "chair" is something we "hang in". This shows already that what we "mean" by a word is dependent on the language (and the civilisation) the word fits in.

    When we start to use abstract concepts, all hell breaks loose. I happen to lecture about a number of key concepts of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which you may know to be written in six languages: French, English, Spanish, Russian, Arabic and Chinese. The "star" presentation is about the concept of peace. Its somewhat provocative subtitle is: "how can we make peace when the parties making peace attach different meanings to the word?"

    This lecture used to be destined for a Belgian audience, so I associated with it the Dutch version fo the concept, "vrede", and the German one, "Frieden". As you can see, "vrede" and "Frieden" are cognates, as are "peace", "paix" and "paz", but the Arabic "salâm", the Russian "mir" and the Chinese "heping" stand alone. If we take the cognates as referring to one meaning, we are confronted with five meanings in the case of "peace".

    You may object: no, that is not the case – they are just five linguistically different formulations for the same concept, "peace". That is, alas, not true. In this case, we can see that parallels to the Japanese definition of a "chair" as something one hangs in, abound. The peace/paz/paix group is linked to associations which may be summarised by the idea of the "Pax Romana": "pax" is what is achieved within an area that military might has managed to render safe from military attacks. The Arabic "salâm" however is related to soundness and health, it is what makes physical integrity possible and characterises it. The Russian "mir" evokes the ideas of maternal protection, of milk and sweetness whereas the Chinese "heping" evokes the ideas of availability of food and taking care of fields and crops; the Dutch/German vrede/Frieden is associated with freedom, friendship and love. The respective bundles of associations are not the same, and it follows that the meanings of these words are different.

    The question may then be asked: but if that is the case, how is to possible that they are the translations of each other? Well, one may wonder indeed. The only thing we know is that it is done that way, and that, as a consequence, what we call the "meaning" of "peace" – which we are supposed to intend unequivocally whenever we use either "peace" or "heping" or "mir" or "salâm" or "vrede" is, at best, the artefact of the fact that we use these words when we translate them. Besides, you may have noticed that of all those association bundles the one proposed for the Pax Romana is the one that we may come up with as members of this forum. I suggest that that is the case not because it is really the meaning of the concept of "peace" but only the reflection of the dominant position of English as the language of the Empire – in other words, there is a dominant meaning of "peace" and that is dictated by what the Peace Corps busies itself with (to put it provocatively); also, characteristically, translating software often uses English as the bridging language between translations. In fact however, the meanings of the words that are used as each other’s translations differ according to language culture and civilisation.

    I guess that this is also true for "time", and even to a larger extent – as the concept appears to be of an even more abstract nature. It is known that in quite a number of non-European languages, "time is expressed in quite peculiar ways". Peculiar, yeas, to the English or European-speaking mind – but not to theirs. It may be possible that in quite a number of them, “there is no word for "time" “, meaning: "there is no word which may be chosen as the translation of "time" in that language".

    I believe that examining what the cultures of the world "mean" when they use the word "time" or the translations of it in their languages is a preliminary to the "is" question.

    Additionally, when we stumble upon language civilisations who somehow distribute the meanings quite differently, e.g. when they have a word that is most frequently used that is their preferred translation for both "time" and "event" (let’s call it "wuk" for the sake of the thought experiment) – then what would render the question "what is time?" more interesting than the question "what is wuk?", unless we consider the fact that "time" belongs to the language of the dominating Empire as decisive?

    Obviously, the language of this forum is English. But the fact that "time" will be the word used to translate quite a number of words in other languages that have their own association bundles may at least make us curious also about the associations "time" has in English. But it might make us curious as well to know what members whose mother tongue is not English associate when they use in their language the word with which they translate the English word "time".

    As for one of my languages, French, the word "temps" means both "time" and "weather", and in the rural region where I live, where the life of organic farmers is spent in time (a clumsy association) and depends on the weather itself associated with seasons, "le temps" evokes more than what is measured by a stopwatch. As a matter of fact, they "time" their working time (temps) by means of the weather (temps).
    Last edited by Michel Leclerc; 30th April 2022 at 22:58.

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    Thank you, Satori....RunningDeer..... my appreciation for the suggestion and links.

    Just for reference, what I would put out here is that my main interest currently is direct experience and direct discovery. As well as dialogue with others actively going in for direct experience and discovery. Are there others present with active practices which stimulate curiosity, specifically relative to consciousness, space and time, reality and the way it works? I would love to hear where you are in your process. What I am mainly aiming at presently myself, is an understanding I can actively, in a very practical sense, radiate. This is why I am asking how your minds move around this question : what is time? It is a very tangible thing, when someone shares from their immediate experience. In this sense I am also attempting to connect with the specific group of people gathered here. I hope this makes sense. I am a bit brain tired from being on the computer all day. I think it is definitely time for a walk! lol
    "Love is what is left when you let go of everything you no longer need." —Raj

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    Quote The issue I have with such questions is that they presuppose that we know what the chosen concept means.
    Hello, Michel

    I am asking not to hear what anyone knows, per se, but rather how your minds move.

    It is a far more intimate thing, in a sense, as it is incomplete.


    A walk beckons.
    I'll come back to read the rest of what you wrote in a bit.

    Thank you for adding your voice.


    Casey
    "Love is what is left when you let go of everything you no longer need." —Raj

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    Quote Posted by Casey Claar (here)
    Quote The issue I have with such questions is that they presuppose that we know what the chosen concept means.
    Hello, Michel

    I am asking not to hear what anyone knows, per se, but rather how your minds move.

    It is a far more intimate thing, in a sense, as it is incomplete.


    A walk beckons.
    I'll come back to read the rest of what you wrote in a bit.

    Thank you for adding your voice.


    Casey
    Then, from the perspective of “how our minds move”, I’m not sure invoking the concept of time as the focal point is the best point of departure or focus. Movement and motion involve space and time, at a minimum, and not just time. “Mind” strikes me as timeless and motionless, as does consciousness and spirit.

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    Time is a convenience so that everything doesn't happen at once, which is just as valid.

    Did the Source think a Thought so comprehensive it encompasses even this question at this time?

    Did that Thought take time? Does rethinking it?
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

    Free will can only be as free as the mind that conceives it.

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    Quote Posted by Casey Claar (here)
    It is on my mind a lot these days, so let me it ask it here. What is time, and how does the future affect the past?


    Mod note from Bill:

    I've moved this and the 9 replies that follow to start this new standalone thread, as it seems there's a lot of interest in discussing this!

    may i ask what you have discerned in-regards to the topic at hand,

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Time is a convenience so that everything doesn't happen at once, which is just as valid.

    Did the Source think a Thought so comprehensive it encompasses even this question at this time?

    Did that Thought take time? Does rethinking it?
    Hi Ernie. Your characterization of time as a convenience, got me wondering in a new way.

    I asked “convenient to who?”, since that is how we use that word, and that brought me to wondering about the intents and the choices of those that designed this place in which we earthlings experience ‘time’.

    I guess I’m wondering about how necessity fits in to this. Like, the various seemingly fine-tuned physics ‘constants’ look like necessities, but what is called ’convergent evolution’, critters (and plants?) getting quite similar functionality via different pathways, suggests that some choices are available. In the case of time, I will go with necessity. And if it took a bunch of tries to get a universe right, for us, like this one, that would negate any ‘convenience’ dividend. ~8)

    I think the idea “What is a thought?” deserves a thread of it’s own. So so rich a subject. I have pondered over thought and thinking, tho probably not enough, especially back at uni where I rubbed shoulders with way smarter/tuned people than me. We could even ask “If a member of the animal kingdom or the mineral kingdom knows what they are, is that thought?”. I would love to hear people’s thoughts on the whole gamut. Cheers.

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    Isn’t there an extra term for „future“ deja-vu?

    And isn’t the crystallization of something potentially also a process that binds that (flowy?) something to a specific space and time?

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    Quote Posted by wegge (here)
    Isn’t there an extra term for „future“ deja-vu?

    And isn’t the crystallization of something potentially also a process that binds that (flowy?) something to a specific space and time?
    You were all given the explanation to all of this way back, *you were born knowing this* yet you chose to "ask" instead of "introspect" and then decided to *not* just bring up the obvious answers you already knew. That's why it is frustrating and idiotic most times, to look at this from a "human point of view", it's so dumb lol

    It's more fun to spend years asking and revolving around the thing, than to figure it out already and stop playing around in the courtyard, isn't it?

    I'm bothered, "don't touch me or talk to me, i'm a fool on the hill", right? lol
    Last edited by Mashika; 1st May 2022 at 12:03.
    Tired

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    Why oh way do you feel the need to look for answers from someone else, instead of just asking yourself "why" until you get to the bottom of it, as those answers are already within you?

    Why the need to ask someone else, or to even expect someone else to have the answers you are looking for? Why do you consider some other person more smart and aware than you? Is it because they wrote a book?

    Why oh why...
    Tired

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    For me time is a developed reference point for our material being, like a index for us to fit into.
    If you do lots of medative being time has no being.

    For us it is a limiting jailer that stops us expanding in any direction we desire.
    A jailer that keeps our main focal point in the material, the so called now.


    Another good question to think about is "What is LIGHT"?
    I'm a simple easy going guy that is very upset/sad with the worlds hidden controllers!
    We need LEADERS who bat from the HEART!
    Rise up above them Dark evil doers, not within anger but with LOVE

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    some questions are rhetorical, designed to make one think

    like a koan of Zen fame
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

    Free will can only be as free as the mind that conceives it.

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    Quote Posted by Gwin Ru (here)
    ...

    ... at the bottom of it, it is a rate of change within a space which therefore describes motion. Therefore any space/density/dimension which contains any frequency/vibration can't help but have "Time" included in the very construct of that space/density/dimension (the rolling marble).

    As for the disappearing marble, well, one could say it got uncreated then got re-created in a different position in a specific space, without any motion, i.e. without "time"... and that gets us into the quantum entanglement of instantaneous communication between particles across any distance within a space... and that's where I quit understanding anything

    However, there are énergumènes like Clif High who posit that the physical universe gets created/uncreated/re-created every 23-ish trillionth of a second to generate the illusion of continuity of motion or immobility, solidity or fluidity. But that implies the existence of a consciousness vibrating at that rate between no space (uncreated or out of that space) and space (recreated)... and I don't think I understand that stroboscopic material/solid holographic physical motion picture very adequately.

    But, if true, considering the vastness of this universe, imagining the equivalent vastness of the consciousness holding all of it together in perfect functioning order is worthy of utter awe.
    'SWIM' introduced a friend to mushrooms. lol In her apartment, the full effect took hold. SWIM started to see the 'flicker' and she started freaking out a bit about how this wasn't her apartment. At that moment it was apparent that she was seeing it too. Once you can perceive the flickering refresh rate, you see that your field of view is brand new every moment. It doesn't seem that it would be perceivable if there were 23 trillion frames per second. It seems that there would be just as much as there needs to be plus a bit of overkill. That would be more efficient. Just like fractals are the most effiicient way to create nature.

    So, if 20 frames per second fools the eye, it seems that 100 or so would be pretty darn convincing. Only when you speed up your consciousness can that flickering be seen.

    Time is that refresh rate of change, as I believe Henry Deacon said.

    I just think of torus voxels filling 3D space. That gives the perspective of discrete individual units like 2D pixels, but they are all fractally interconnected and changes in them reverberate thru all the voxels. I symbiotic relationship of toruses within toruses. One time I saw them. Once all the voxels rotated, then I was in a new dimension. See nowhere to go lol. Just change the data on the screen.


    not only are the toruses symbiotically working together as a symphony from left to right ot up and down, but at different levels. Ex: Nucleus, Atom, organism's torus/egg. By the way, check out this video going over some of the CIA declassified document regarding the Holographic Universe amongst other things. Amazing. There's a few fascinating details in there I hadnt heard before.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOYl1oqgDX4

    Here is the 1983 CIA document from cia.gov.

    https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs...00210016-5.pdf

    Time as numbers are relative units we created for measurement. So, we can measure this rate of change. Its more like phenomena is morphing rather than moving the way i see it.

    In dreams, the 'voxels' are morphing faster normally, so you could say that time is faster. The faster things change the more it slips away...."Time slipping away". Imagine a fascinating new world that was morphing rapidly. we would be saying, "hey, i was done looking at that." Its a good thing if your are in a bad experience, but not so good if its a wonderful moment.
    Last edited by Merkaba360; 1st May 2022 at 13:46.

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    Default Re: What is Time?

    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Why oh way do you feel the need to look for answers from someone else, instead of just asking yourself "why" until you get to the bottom of it, as those answers are already within you?

    Why the need to ask someone else, or to even expect someone else to have the answers you are looking for? Why do you consider some other person more smart and aware than you? Is it because they wrote a book?

    Why oh why...
    Well, here's a proposal: we can make you a moderator, with the specific responsibility of censoring anyone's posts that ask any questions about anything at all.

    (But, wait a minute.. didn't you just ask a question here?)

    Quote Why oh way do you feel the need to look for answers from someone else, instead of just asking yourself "why" until you get to the bottom of it, as those answers are already within you?



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  36. Link to Post #39
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    Default Re: What is Time?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Why oh way do you feel the need to look for answers from someone else, instead of just asking yourself "why" until you get to the bottom of it, as those answers are already within you?

    Why the need to ask someone else, or to even expect someone else to have the answers you are looking for? Why do you consider some other person more smart and aware than you? Is it because they wrote a book?

    Why oh why...
    Well, here's a proposal: we can make you a moderator, with the specific responsibility of censoring anyone's posts that ask any questions about anything at all.

    (But, wait a minute.. didn't you just ask a question here?)

    Quote Why oh way do you feel the need to look for answers from someone else, instead of just asking yourself "why" until you get to the bottom of it, as those answers are already within you?


    I would destroy it all in a day or two, no doubt about it

    But there is something i still believe is true, and it is that people don't question themselves too much, they look for answers far beyond themselves most times, and as an initial point to find answers

    Some/most times, the answer wasn't far away, but we were told that 'someone else has the answer' as a matter of principle in life, you always have to 'ask" for wisdom from someone else. Nobody seems to be asking "why i lack this understanding that this other person has" or more like "how did this other person get to understand or learned about these things i want to know?" Was the other person better or wiser? How did they got there in the first place? What drove them or what path lead them to be a guide for other people?

    It just seemed to me, that we should first drain down our own lake of wisdom before going out looking for answers or knowledge from someone else, but as usual i managed to offend and insult, i suppose, instead of becoming "a person someone wants to read and talk to or even discuss things with"

    I'm not good at this at all
    Last edited by Mashika; 1st May 2022 at 14:27.
    Tired

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  38. Link to Post #40
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    Default Re: What is Time?

    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)

    I'm not good at this at all
    That's true, and that's very honest of you.

    When people ask questions in a community like this, it's often not because they [just] want to explore possible answers. It's also because they want to connect with others, and in their own social circle they may not have many (or any!) people to talk with about esoteric subjects.

    I know you understand this VERY well.

    But we also have to be kind. That's far more important than understanding what 'time' may be. Casey is a new member here. We should welcome her and appreciate what she wants to share about her own thoughts and meditations.

    And always remember, asking any question at all in public is an opening of vulnerability, an act of trust. I know you absolutely understand this too.



    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 1st May 2022 at 14:36.

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