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Thread: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

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    Lightbulb Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?


    Explore the möbius strip and Klein bottle conceptualizations in topology as we embark on this dumbfounding whirlwind tour of higher dimensions, time travel, paradoxes, 4D visualization, and sentient primitive shapes.

    CHAPTERS:

    00:00 - A Hexagon Illusion
    00:50 - Defining Topology, Manifold, and Boundary
    02:11 - An Open 2D Manifold
    02:25 - Riddle #1
    02:39 - Cutting the Möbius Strip in half and in thirds
    04:34 - The Grandfather Paradox
    05:13 - Grandfather Paradox Solution Using a Möbius Strip
    07:11 - A Closed 2D Manifold
    07:46 - Riddle #2
    08:03 - Visualizing the Klein Bottle with an Ant
    09:12 - Spatial and Temporal Dimensions
    09:24 - Linus - Two Dimensions for a 1D Creature
    10:26 - Squirrel - Three Dimensions for a 2D Creature
    11:19 - Time Evolution of a Flattened Möbius Strip's Boundary
    12:07 - Klein Bottle
    12:36 - Visualizing the Klein Bottle in 4 Dimensions

    related:
    • Cutting a Möbius strip in half (and more) Animated Topology:

    cheers,
    John 🦜🦋🌳
    Last edited by ExomatrixTV; 10th August 2022 at 20:10.
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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    This Mobius strip explanation is profound. It gives us a new perspective of cause and effect. The effect is the cause of the cause if you view the chain from a higher philosophical dimension.

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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    No need2follow anyone, only consider to broaden (y)our horizon of possibilities
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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    Quote Posted by syrwong (here)
    This Mobius strip explanation is profound. It gives us a new perspective of cause and effect. The effect is the cause of the cause if you view the chain from a higher philosophical dimension.
    Can't agree with you more!
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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    Nice sharing. Möbius Strip gives me the Unconventional Thinking.
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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    I'd suggest the Grandfather Paradox solution (at 05:13 in the video) is a little spurious. The real solution is far easier: (but can still kind of be related to the Möbius Strip)

    If you go back in time to kill your grandfather (or do anything else that might change the developing future timeline), then a new timeline branch is created. It's as simple as that.

    The real problem for backwards-traveling time travelers might be navigating to return back to their original timeline, rather than back to the newly created one, where some (or many!) things might have changed. This is explored in Ray Bradbury's classic 1952 Sci-Fi short story A Sound of Thunder, which in 2005 was made into a perfectly awful film of the same name.


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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    Time marches on for 8 billion people on earth. 8 billion; lifelong timelines - some short, some up to 8o+ years.

    There is approximately 86,4oo seconds per day. [The day changes slightly over time, both faster and slower]

    So a snapshot of one day for 8 billion people is 691,2oo,ooo,ooo,ooo seconds of earth's population travelling forward in time on a second/per second basis.

    We often do not think of all of the motion of time. Which includes 9 million species of animals and insects and 4oo,ooo species of plants.

    It sort of makes the 'butterfly effect' lonely and not relevant. However, all of this motion in time is important; including all of the connections between the population and the connections with nature.

    I think because of the magnitude of time and those moving along with it helps one understand the computer Doctor Who has and the fact that it's power source was a small 'Star'.

    In order to travel backwards in time will take super computing to another level; is what I think. No one person is going to solve this problem in their garage.
    I wish they could unravel all they had woven; that we might have our woods and our innocence again, instead of our castles and our policies. ~ Abraham Cowley [1618-1667]

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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    Travel in time would be a potential if time existed but it apparently does not. This reality flashes in and out very rapidly making each moment unique to itself. Each flash brings with it a movement of what is..but never quite the same. The person that started writing this is not the one that finishes it as everything is in flux. There is only this moment and this and this ad infinitum. No past and no future and no continuum as such and also no person as we think we are. I have only experienced this flashing in and out once and it was with each in breath and out breath and much slower. The book "The secret Oral Teachings in Tibetan Buddhist Sects" by Alexandra David-Nell goes into this in depth and explains that we are all of it/everyone experiencing and not a separate individual cut off from everything. From this comes the common spiritual teachings that there is only Now.

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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    Quote Posted by Trisher (here)
    Travel in time would be a potential if time existed but it apparently does not. This reality flashes in and out very rapidly making each moment unique to itself. Each flash brings with it a movement of what is..but never quite the same. The person that started writing this is not the one that finishes it as everything is in flux. There is only this moment and this and this ad infinitum. No past and no future and no continuum as such and also no person as we think we are. I have only experienced this flashing in and out once and it was with each in breath and out breath and much slower. The book "The secret Oral Teachings in Tibetan Buddhist Sects" by Alexandra David-Nell goes into this in depth and explains that we are all of it/everyone experiencing and not a separate individual cut off from everything. From this comes the common spiritual teachings that there is only Now.

    Am well aware of all kinds of (new age type) wisdoms discussing (the mystery of) time ... most boils down that on a Multidimensional Soul level we are beyond the limits of time.

    But I always use specific things that relates to the practical perceptions of time:

    01. Do you want cold coffee/tea or warm/hot coffee/tea? ... both can be experiences in T I M E ... as almost everything seems to be about timing ... and your relationship with "timing" has to do with how much are you in tuned to time ... to exceed your normal "5 sense abilities" your 6th sense is beyond the limits of time!
    02. Do you want fresh made bread smelling wonderful? or do you want old bread with all kinds of molds/fungus? (both can be experiences in TIME).
    03. Do you want old fish that smells or fresh fish (bot are 100% related to what we call time!)
    04. Do you see a seed of an apple tree it has the potential to give you 100s of apples over time!
    05. When you see snow in the winter all over the place... do assume it will be always like that? Or do KNOW it will change due to what we call time!
    06. When you see a baby of ANY creature on earth ... do you see it as "fixed"? or do you know it will change over time to something else!
    07. When you need to go to the toilet and some one else has taken the toilet both perceptions are real, one is in a big hurry the other does not.

    And I can go on and on and on and on and on what practical perceptions are about how we experience time!

    Our Soul can see it all at once like watching a movie ... and the movie projector is deciding what the focus is ... the film is linear the projector does not have to be thus beyond the limits of the projected screens we focus upon.

    Anyone who claims "time does not exists" ... I will give that person cold coffee, rotten fish, bread with molds/fungus, no longer than 1 second attention to your stories etc. etc. Time can be a gift, a blessing or a curse depending what you want.

    So now you see the paradox of practical down to earth "time wisdoms" not discussed in most new age type "time" discussions.
    • Last but not least: without time crystals can not be formed! ... and without crystals we would among others not have radio-transmitters & receivers!
    cheers,
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    April 10th, 2022 🦜🦋🌳

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    Last edited by ExomatrixTV; 12th August 2022 at 22:00.
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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    Quote Posted by Trisher (here)
    Travel in time would be a potential if time existed but it apparently does not. This reality flashes in and out very rapidly making each moment unique to itself. Each flash brings with it a movement of what is..but never quite the same. The person that started writing this is not the one that finishes it as everything is in flux. There is only this moment and this and this ad infinitum. No past and no future and no continuum as such and also no person as we think we are. I have only experienced this flashing in and out once and it was with each in breath and out breath and much slower. The book "The secret Oral Teachings in Tibetan Buddhist Sects" by Alexandra David-Nell goes into this in depth and explains that we are all of it/everyone experiencing and not a separate individual cut off from everything. From this comes the common spiritual teachings that there is only Now.
    In its simplest form, time is a tool.

    If you say there is no time [no past. no future. just now.]:

    Then you do not own a watch or a phone.
    You do not commit to appointments [with friends, relatives, doctors, job interviews, etc.].
    You do not recognise history, or when something happened or did not happen - even your own history, your family's history, your country's history or world history by any measurement. [your country: the empire changed the world through exploration over centuries; not always for the worst.]
    You do not set goals; nor strive to achieve them.
    You arrive at places of business after closing time and feel entitled to getting the products or services usually rendered during opening hours.
    You do not take prescribed medications at the appropriate time, just whenever you feel like it.

    This tool goes way beyond mouldy bread or rotten fish. Unless you are dedicated to a spiritual life in the mountains where the use of such a tool as time would be engaged in a minimalist manner, the world works using this tool at the very least on a daily basis.

    Time may not be as complicated as a 4th dimension, but it is very much a useful tool.

    There is a time and a place for everything.
    I wish they could unravel all they had woven; that we might have our woods and our innocence again, instead of our castles and our policies. ~ Abraham Cowley [1618-1667]

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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    When coming from our perception and our senses and thoughts then all that is perceived in the world appears to be tangible and more or less as it appears to us. We could not function without time and labels in this context. There is no conflict at all with this.
    Beyond our senses and perceptions and thinking there is a much much deeper reality at play which cannot be reached by thought and words. Anyone..like the Tibetans as an example..who get this through realisations (it is never through just thinking) still have to function with labels and time but they no longer believe their world as it appears through the body senses. Whatever our perception and where we come from we are right and at the same time not right. A cosmic joke.

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    Lightbulb Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    Quote Posted by Trisher (here)
    When coming from our perception and our senses and thoughts then all that is perceived in the world appears to be tangible and more or less as it appears to us. We could not function without time and labels in this context. There is no conflict at all with this.
    Beyond our senses and perceptions and thinking there is a much much deeper reality at play which cannot be reached by thought and words. Anyone..like the Tibetans as an example..who get this through realisations (it is never through just thinking) still have to function with labels and time but they no longer believe their world as it appears through the body senses. Whatever our perception and where we come from we are right and at the same time not right. A cosmic joke.
    It is so much more than "appearances" it is also a genuine appreciation why fine-tuning & timing is super valuable on so so many levels ... like knowing how and when to grow (y)our food ... and the list of practical examples dealing with timing is enormous ... just because there are other realms (where we originally came from) have total different rules different possibilities does not make our appreciation for the existence of correct timing any less.

    This fine-tuning with timing/time something we humans did with nature almost without thinking ... nowadays almost everything gets automated & computerized ... thus our connection with natural-time dynamics dissipates and we become more and more robotized with a Transhumanism Agenda where A.I. ultimately micromanage us all from cradle to grave ... only if we let them ... using among others countless fake or manufactured crisis to justify throwing away more and more basic human rights all done for their "greater good".

    Our intuitive relation & connection with time is how we can test ourselves if we resonate with "what really is" vs being controlled by others having destructive agendas.

    cheers,
    John 🦜🦋🌳
    Last edited by ExomatrixTV; 12th August 2022 at 09:31.
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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    Quote Posted by ExomatrixTV (here)
    Quote Posted by Trisher (here)
    When coming from our perception and our senses and thoughts then all that is perceived in the world appears to be tangible and more or less as it appears to us. We could not function without time and labels in this context. There is no conflict at all with this.
    Beyond our senses and perceptions and thinking there is a much much deeper reality at play which cannot be reached by thought and words. Anyone..like the Tibetans as an example..who get this through realisations (it is never through just thinking) still have to function with labels and time but they no longer believe their world as it appears through the body senses. Whatever our perception and where we come from we are right and at the same time not right. A cosmic joke.
    It is so much more than "appearances" it is also a genuine appreciation why fine-tuning & timing is super valuable on so so many levels ... like knowing how and when to grow your food ... and the list of practical examples dealing with timing is enormous ... just because there are other realms (where we originally came from) have total different rules different possibilities does not make our appreciation for correct timing any less.

    This fine-tuning with timing/time something we humans did with nature almost without thinking ... nowadays almost everything gets automated & computerized ... thus our connection with natural-time dynamics dissipates and we become more and more robotized with a Transhumanism Agenda where A.I. ultimately micromanage us all from cradle to grave if we let them use countless fake or manufactured crisis to throw away basic human rights for their "greater good".

    Our intuitive relation & connection with time is how we can test ourselves if we resonate with "what really is" vs being controlled by others having a destructive agenda.

    cheers,
    John 🦜🦋🌳
    Totally agree John. There is a flow which we are all a part of.
    For those looking from no thoughts and no identity of themselves or labels they may see that they are all of it..the whole universe and more..far more than the focused identity of me doing... and as such they may find that there is actually no me doing anything..but the universe just flashing in and out..things just occurring...without anyone doing anything. The secret teachings were not really secret as such but few were ready and willing to investigate their own annihilation (and expansion. )
    No more comments from me on this as words are poor communicators when it comes to this.
    Sorry to have derailed the thread a bit

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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    Quote Posted by Trisher (here)
    Quote Posted by ExomatrixTV (here)
    Quote Posted by Trisher (here)
    When coming from our perception and our senses and thoughts then all that is perceived in the world appears to be tangible and more or less as it appears to us. We could not function without time and labels in this context. There is no conflict at all with this.
    Beyond our senses and perceptions and thinking there is a much much deeper reality at play which cannot be reached by thought and words. Anyone..like the Tibetans as an example..who get this through realisations (it is never through just thinking) still have to function with labels and time but they no longer believe their world as it appears through the body senses. Whatever our perception and where we come from we are right and at the same time not right. A cosmic joke.
    It is so much more than "appearances" it is also a genuine appreciation why fine-tuning & timing is super valuable on so so many levels ... like knowing how and when to grow your food ... and the list of practical examples dealing with timing is enormous ... just because there are other realms (where we originally came from) have total different rules different possibilities does not make our appreciation for correct timing any less.

    This fine-tuning with timing/time something we humans did with nature almost without thinking ... nowadays almost everything gets automated & computerized ... thus our connection with natural-time dynamics dissipates and we become more and more robotized with a Transhumanism Agenda where A.I. ultimately micromanage us all from cradle to grave if we let them use countless fake or manufactured crisis to throw away basic human rights for their "greater good".

    Our intuitive relation & connection with time is how we can test ourselves if we resonate with "what really is" vs being controlled by others having a destructive agenda.

    cheers,
    John 🦜🦋🌳
    Totally agree John. There is a flow which we are all a part of.
    For those looking from no thoughts and no identity of themselves or labels they may see that they are all of it..the whole universe and more..far more than the focused identity of me doing... and as such they may find that there is actually no me doing anything..but the universe just flashing in and out..things just occurring...without anyone doing anything. The secret teachings were not really secret as such but few were ready and willing to investigate their own annihilation (and expansion. )
    No more comments from me on this as words are poor communicators when it comes to this.
    Sorry to have derailed the thread a bit

    I see no derailing ... just different perspectives ... which is what this P.A. forum is all about ... so no worries
    Last edited by ExomatrixTV; 11th August 2022 at 18:51.
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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    Queueing this one up to potentially contribute on later, after I have studied the videos and everyone's comment. Thank you posting !!
    "Love is what is left when you let go of everything you no longer need." —Raj

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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    Quote Posted by Casey Claar (here)
    Queueing this one up to potentially contribute on later, after I have studied the videos and everyone's comment. Thank you posting !!
    To me it sounds like useless mental gymnastics. If time travel is a thing, it would be like bringing the past to life, which feels wrong. I think everything is in ‘real time’. Cadence dependent on ~situation, but echoes just echoes. That this idea exists, means that it is useful. But to whom, and to what purpose? Our goal is to perfect our inner being, overcome the weaknesses we have accrued. Surely we are responsible for our own progress.

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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    Good video that describes Möbius strips and Klein bottles. Still trying to wrap my 3D brain around a 4D Klein bottle, but I understand it a little bit better after this.

    But the Grandfather Paradox explanation does not work for me on a lot of levels:
    • We see time as one dimensional. A Möbius strip is a two dimensional object that unfolds in 3D space. At any point on the strip there are two surfaces (an "upside" and a "downside"). Does time has an "upside" and "downside". I don't think this geometric model works well to represent time.


    • When using a geometric model to explain time, time would be represented by a continuous geometric model. I think the best model for time is a vector, where, as we experience the world, all motion is in one direction. The vector extends into infinity in space, which is equivalent to eternity in time. The Möbius strip could be used to explain time that is cyclical. If we were talking about time travel, then the traveler, who starts her time machine, would leave the surface of the Möbius strip, and travel through 3D space and then land on another point on the strip where she leaves the machine. But here, the time travel line is built into the strip - time proceeds sequentially from a certain date and then suddenly jumps to another time on the strip. That's like having an axis (like your "x-axis" in geometry), that proceed sequentially: 0,1,2,3, etc. and then suddenly jumps back to zero at some arbitrary point.

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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    I'd suggest the Grandfather Paradox solution is a little spurious. The real solution is far easier: (but can still kind of be related to the Möbius Strip)

    If you go back in time to kill your grandfather (or do anything else that might change the developing future timeline), then a new timeline branch is created. It's as simple as that.

    The real problem for backwards-traveling time travelers might be navigating to return back to their original timeline, rather than back to the newly created one, where some (or many!) things might have changed.
    You are exactly right, in that even the act of time travel itself, let alone taking a dramatic action in the past, will necessarily create a new timeline branch. In fact, you can distinguish this type of timeline branch from the types created by the simulation algorithm - the former is created "internally" from within the simulation, and the latter is created "externally" (more accurately, from the interface layer between the simulation and the layer of meta-reality from where the simulation is being simulated).

    However, the mobius strip explanation is still useful in that it illustrates a type of quantum superposition on a scale much larger than sub-atomic particles, which remain the only types of quantum interaction we are able to understand (somewhat) and study in the current year. It is a fairly effective way of understanding that the computational engine of the simulation doesn't particularly care about whatever types of dramatic actions we might take when attempting to alter timelines - such alterations only matter when they contribute positively to the actual *goal* of the simulation itself - synthesizing new information.

    In other words, hypothetically a time traveller could create a new timeline branch, and then make countless absurd actions that would degrade the value of that timeline due to robbing the "naturalness" of the sequence of events in that timeline - this would have the effect of eventually "stubbing out" that timeline since there would be no useful information being computed from it any longer. This is why anyone from a time where time travel was possible, having the understanding that would come with being from that time, would never take absurd actions - they could serve no possible benefit to the meta-timeline.

    Another way of looking at it is this - a time traveller returning to their time in the future, actually cannot return to any other timeline than the one they came from. This is not intuitive at first, it seems like they should be able to return to a parallel timeline rather than the one they came from. However, in the future there will be enough resources around to help paint a proof of why this must be the case - what their actions in the past actually affect is their timeline's relationship with other timelines in the meta-timeline.

    Travelling to the future rather than the past is actually fairly symmetric in this regard, because the cause and effect relationship is not as simple as that of linear time, though cause and effect do nevertheless follow that arrow in this dimension/density. A change to the future would also potentially affect the relationship of the time traveller's original present timeline with the other timelines surrounding it, no more, no less.

    What is critical here is the nature of the meta-timeline, and the answer to why time traveller's might want to either travel (or project consciousness indirectly) to moments in time other than the one they live in. The only answer possible here is the one that can only be understood by understanding the meta-timeline itself. In other words, the actual purpose of this simulation.

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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    Don't we have to consider that creation is not duplication. In other words you can't go back in time, cuz you can only be right here perceiving whatever is in front of you, and that would be RE-creating the exact same perception of lets say your grandfather in November 11 1940 at 3:33pm in his home. Wouldn't that just be a copy, or a new instance (a new timeline) that looks identical to that moment and place in time in 1940, but actually is different if you analyzed every quantum particle or whatever.

    The mushroom gods showed me how each moment was absolutely a new and fresh projection. The room i was sitting in felt like a different room as each frame/moment of time passed by. That was the beauty of creation, utter uniqueness. Just as we might look at 2 identical model brand new cars as the same thing, they really are unique if looking beyond appearances lacking deeper inspection.

    I guess the whole timeline of earth we all are storing as memories is a 4D timeline "object" or "file". I guess 5D would be the fractal of all timelines. So, I think if humanity gains "time travel", that is just another way of saying that we become interdimensional to keep creating new timelines in the fractal. That whole 5D "blob" couldn't hold all possibilities, becuase that is infinite, which can never be completed. But it could keep growing as we continued to play with our new "time travel" (timeline shifting) abilities. So, maybe that is the ultimate technology or achievement of our current experience, the seeming time travel is what breaks the game to go to playing on the new multidimensional level.

    What I don't understand is how can I "time travel" lets say I kill my friends grandfather, and then continue on in that new timeline.......doesn't that force everybody whose life changed from that murder to have to live another life , so i get to re-live my life in a slightly different way? Or does that mean God just plays every other character....but wouldn't that then mean none of you are sovereign beings playing the game you all see fit, like me? ugh...something doesn't add up here.

    After I die, can i come back and reboot the same life and play it in a new way? It seems that there are 2 types of creations. That case I would call a simulation. You are the only player that is sovereign, and everyone and everything else is just run by the simulation for my enjoyment or learning.

    The second type of creation, is what seems to be the case now. A MMORPG, with 8 billion sovereign players that can only be played one time, cuz users are coming and going during this long game, but if it was rebooted, 8 billion bodies wouldnt have all the same souls (players) enter the game the next time around.

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    Default Re: Möbius Strip Solves 'The Grandfather Paradox' of Time Travel?

    Yes that is exactly right, it would seem. Any timeline inventing time travel would also know the limitations of what can be achieved using it, since by then they'd have a much better understanding of 4D and 5D exactly as you describe them. 4D indeed views a 3D timeline as a static object or file, and 5D does indeed represent the fractal of all timelines, or the "meta-timeline".

    Back to the earlier point, it can't be emphasized enough how little value there would be in taking a drastic absurd action upon travelling to the past. In so doing you might risk throwing any real purpose for your travel into jeopardy, because of how much less value would then be ascribed to that branch in the meta-timeline. You would be throwing away all the work that went into the time travel in the first place.

    Regarding your last points, of the 2 types of creations, you may be able to entertain a third possibility - that a combination of both is possible. This is in fact a better description of the nature of this simulation, it is alpha/omega all at once, and it is only our inability to understand this type of superposition that makes it seem outlandish.

    How can it be both at once? If you are choosing the number 8 billion to roughly represent the number of humans on earth, then even though they are all on the same planet, even then people cannot be consciously aware of the experiences of the other 7.99.... billion people around them, instead only a few.

    Now imagine that this constraint is applied to all of us, but then it is made up for by allowing the meshing of experiences to not actually be tethered to a single reality after all, despite how it would appear. No matter how rapidly you tried to personally check the facts of the reality around you and the experiences of others, you could not check anywhere near all of it in your own lifetime.

    And so this becomes the perfect playing field for the Mandella Effect to occur when parallel experiences of reality overlap - the groups of people having experienced reality one way vs another now occupying the same "fold" in this tapestry of the meta-timeline.

    All of this is to say - what would you differently if you knew reality to be this way, instead of the way you probably thought it was beforehand? Is the meta-timeline somehow navigable, in a way as simple as falling asleep and waking up to a slightly different timeline? Would you let the boat take you wherever it may drift, or would you start to steer it yourself?

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