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Thread: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    Dear Friends, quite a long post here. Part 1 is about the unsustainability of our life on Planet Earth (at the rate we're going, and the way we're going), and the urgent changes that are necessary — while there's no sign of anything effective of that kind happening any time soon.

    And Part 2 is a story that I'd like to tell about how it could be.

    ~~~

    I know The Limits to Growth is a 1972 Club-of-Rome-commissioned report about pretty much the same topic: Wiki page here. The Club of Rome was/is a globalist organization, the WEF being its progeny. But the report they published highlighted a bunch of problems that were and are very real. Download link here:



    The best presentation I've yet seen in any form is this new online hour-long lecture delivered last week by Dr Chris Martenson to UC Berkeley students who were studying sustainability. It's the best he's got, which means this is both simple and world-class. Those who are familiar with Martenson know that he's pretty much the best explainer of complex issues that we've got.

    He's going to upload all three parts to YouTube in stages (the first part is here), but in the meantime here's a download link for the whole thing. I'd recommend it.
    I've been familiar with (and concerned about) this issue for a very long time, but Martenson presents it better than I possibly could no matter how much I was paid, or how long I had to prepare.

    We have to change the way we do just about everything we do on Planet Earth. Of that I'm certain. But the WEF are not our friends, and I'm certainly not advocating their totalitarian solutions.

    How we get to an optimum solution I don't know, but Free Energy (a topic beyond the scope of this post but which is very real and has existed operationally in classified black projects for at least 25 years) has to be part of the solution. Wade Frazier, who knows more about that this than almost anyone alive and who is not imprisoned in that black world, frequently writes about it on his major ongoing thread: WADE FRAZIER : A Healed Planet.

    But dismissing the WEF and all their anti-human control-freakery and rhetoric doesn't make the core problems disappear. We do have problems, and very serious ones. Do watch Chris Martenson's presentation, linked above. I'll post and embed all three YouTube videos (~20 minutes each) as soon as they're published.

    ~~~

    And here's a little story. Let's just say that I invented it.

    There exists an ET race that's almost utopian in their society, living on a planet many light-years from here.

    They're a highly altruistic, spiritually and technically advanced race. They're very wonderful people, and they're very aware of us (and our predicament) on Planet Earth. They regard us with compassion and concern.

    To introduce them, so to speak, they're very human-looking indeed, just a little shorter than us in stature. Their average height is something like 5' 4" or so (162-163 cm). They have very Japanese-oriental eyes, a little bigger than ours proportionally but which make them look very beautiful.

    Their planet has just one unified civilization (no nation-states, borders, different races or different languages), and they've mastered every technological and medical problem. Their lifespan is close to 200 earth-years, and any kind of sickness or disability is very unusual but almost always quickly remedied.

    They know that they reincarnate. Their population is stable (they reproduce as we do, and all children are greatly loved and valued) and they keep good track of the spiritual lineage of who used to be who in their history. They have families as we know them, but there's also a significant emphasis on the role of the community in sharing all tasks and any problems that need to be solved.

    Their whole society would seem idyllic to us. They don't have elections, but are governed by a group that Plato would have recognized as 'Philosopher-Kings', and Native Americans as kinds of wise, respected Tribal Elders. There's almost no crime of any kind, or harm done to one another. Anything like that which ever happens, which is very rare, is regarded as a case of mental illness. They have advanced military capability, but only for planetary defense if ever needed.

    They have their own wildlife, forests and oceans, in many ways similar to ours, which are protected and regarded with something that could be called reverence. All life is held as sacred. There's no pollution. Their manufacturing is all controlled by benevolent, 'clean' AI. Natural minerals, when needed, are mined from nearby lifeless rocky planets. A great deal is very thoroughly and effectively recycled.

    Besides not having crime or corruption, they don't use money (as in Star Trek ), and there's no 'capitalism' as such. Everyone's needs are met. That eliminates all greed. There's just no need for it.

    They do not kill animals or eat meat of any kind. An aberration like that would be seen rather as we regard cannibalism.

    What they do is live a peaceful life in which every possible need is met, and so their cultural focus is all about assisting other cultures in the galaxy. They're like scientists, explorers, anthropologists, guides, teachers and counselors.

    ~~~

    The End. Maybe readers could regard this story as a way of comparing our current human civilization with how it could, one day, just possibly be.

    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 23rd March 2023 at 18:03.

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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    Bill, I love your story and I think it nearer to the truth than one realises.

    All the experiences I had with Margo and Robin have been positive where the ETs have been with us, nevertheless I realise there has to be the opposite for balance. It is a matter of choice who you draw to you. But never simple!

    Thank you with love❤️

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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    I like the description of this society you have described Bill. I feel I visited a different "society" in the dream time that were a nicely tanned skin, very human like and human size people. Wonderful people that had seemed to balance out what the planet had and what they needed. They were kind and their planet seemed very well managed yet comfortable in simple ways, no feeling of greed, good family and community wellbeing.


    Perhaps those societies are older or further advanced or they just used their intelligence and rescources wisely. There is most likely a kind of circular problem with mental illness being caused by a nonfunctioning society and the mental illness can keep creating more disfunction. Mental illness is caused by so many things often brought on by addictive substances, depression, and in a low state it seems more possible that demonic type possision takes place, and the full sliding scale of mental illnesses we try and label like Naracissists, Sociopaths and Psychopaths.


    The way we are living now cannot go on, and keeping free energy use only for the ones that use control and greed to manipulate the planet is indeed a big problem. It is hard to bridge what our reality is now to the way that we might like it to be. We indeed need a plan on how to transition from where we are to where we would like to be with everyones individual wellbeing taken into account, as well as all our beloved animals and ecosystems. Tech can be good as long as it is a tool and not our tyranical dictator that we give our sovereign power to.


    It seems Wade Frazier is right in his thinking that we need energy to advance our society into something more than a continuous circle of boom and bust, war and stealing assets, while degradation keeps accelerating through each of these cycles if we don't learn anything and keep repeating the same mistakes. In that transition we need highly spiritual people (that care about consequences of their actions over time) and the integration of all through underlying connection of the whole from what we call material things to spiritual (non-seen presently with our eyes) but are all interwoven through ways we learn about as we mature as a society made up of people that are a fractal of that, yet each unique and valued.


    All our problems are interrelated and the solution will need to be that too, but definitely not the WEF plan that is the inverse solution of everything a good society would need so as we live better we also evolve better and need less "taking" from a planet to manifestation and creation from non-parasitic means. Creating in Love. I don't know for sure but I suspect that a society that reaches that stage creates a kind of forcefield that keeps them protected as no one that isn't "of love" can enter, and military protection no longer is necessary for a planetary or personal means of protection.
    Last edited by Harmony; 24th March 2023 at 10:16.

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    Avalon Member norman's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    The WEF paradigm is only a more powered up and brutal version of the paradigm the rest of us are trying to be more reasonable about.

    In one way, the WEF people are more directly honest about what's wrong with our world. It's ass backwards. They know it and want it like that, and intend to rule it like that.

    To us, it's ass backwards and we complain and dream of fixing it to make it a kind of agreeably universal utopia for more than a select few demonic cronies of the 'devil' himself.

    Neither of those are a real solution at all, but we could start by at least completely detaching ourselves from the paradigm the WEF people have muscled themselves into the driving seat of.

    The mistake ( singular not plural ) is not the superficial circus cockups that being ass backwards inevitable creates. The mistake is being ass backwards in the first place, and that's the first ( and really only ) thing to fix. If it's not the top priority, our hearts are not really in it and we'll fix nothing, only reinvent 'mistakes'.

    Really, the mind and it's schemas are "the cart" not "the horse". The "horse" is faith, from beyond here, and singular in a way that the likes of Kurzweil can't get their dumb heads around. Somewhere with a much cleared view to see what our brightest minds can't see, and never will.
    ..................................................my first language is TYPO..............................................

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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    Well the deceptiveness is a good point as in my time, it defrayed me into Maurice Strong-type movements.

    All of its "salvational" motif is, of course, their way of selling you whatever you want to buy.

    Of course, the subject is no joke.

    In essence, Environmentalism became a concern since at least around 1800 B. C. E. at Yellow River settlements where they already found that excessive deforestation makes hills wash away. As to how well anyone has found the best working solutions for "new growth", I am not sure.

    I moved away from an area that became a planned neo-colony for about 50,000 people.

    Not too long ago out here, a few strips of houses went up, and then a month or two ago I noticed a huge gash in the forest, maybe up to ten acres.

    Yes you can imagine how something like C. of Rome written in a benign language such as "limits" and based on obvious environmental concerns is a pretty good vehicle for something more vicious, like Capitalism. That really is a great spin, originally, until you find out how it works.

    Wade Frazier has good testimony and a lot of his early stuff at least was to attempt to get you to even imagine what it would be like not to struggle for energy resources.

    I remain unconvinced that technology is a long-term solution. Perhaps mankind would be doing good to remain approximately in the Iron Age. Anything pre-Steam goes? Something like that.

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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    @Bill - I have to say that I would not for very long appreciate living in the society you describe!

    It is indeed an idyll, in the sense of being a holiday, a rest, a place to heal and recharge batteries... but essentially I regard it as a series of negative attributes; the kind of situation that might result from removing the pains and miseries and afflictions.

    But after the batteries are recharged and the spirit is healed - what then?

    My ideal for an eternal timescale is something active, positive, growing from love and engaged in genuine creation; in an expanding divine creation to which others (Men, and all other Beings - which I take to include animals, plants and so-called 'minerals' such as planets and stars) are contributing and participating.

    In other words, I see your ideal as contemplative, passive and static - perhaps tending towards a state of blissful reabsorption in divine unity; whereas my ideal is to join with the primary creator (who is a person, not abstract) in the ongoing work of creating.

    Since creating is derived from love (love is the coherence of creation), and love is about relationships, my Heaven is like that - i.e. a place of overlapping and linked 'families' (both procreative and adoptive) - almost the opposite of a borderless world; and these interpersonal relationships extend to other not-human Beings.

    Where every individual is different and unique in their nature and contribution - and harmony is not from unity but from shared goals and a commitment to love (underpinned by a commitment for exclusion of everything that is Not of love, which is opposed to love). I think there are always preferences and favourites.

    [To illustrate; in the Fourth Gospel (John) Jesus is always described as loving particular persons, even among the disciples. I think this is a picture of the nature of the highest love: i.e. interpersonal and differentiated, not universally-equal.]

    Perhaps we are both extrapolating from what each us us regards as the best of this actual life: but for you the best is perhaps an immersive contemplative bliss - timeless, and maybe without much in the way of thinking - with Love as a state: impersonal, universal, undiscriminating, unconditional etc?

    Whereas for me the best of this actual life are the specifics of interpersonal love (family and marriage especially), and dynamic, creative thinking - in which I feel self-consciously a part of ongoing creation - i.e. when my thoughts are participating in the developing and transforming reality, and are being taken-up and incorporated-into already-existing and eternal creation.

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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    The erradication of all Federal Reserve Banks and the implementation all around the world of BTC/Ethereum as the 2 official global currencies. Fuvk the Bankers

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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    Quote Posted by Bruce G Charlton (here)
    @Bill - I have to say that I would not for very long appreciate living in the society you describe!

    It is indeed an idyll, in the sense of being a holiday, a rest, a place to heal and recharge batteries... but essentially I regard it as a series of negative attributes; the kind of situation that might result from removing the pains and miseries and afflictions.

    But after the batteries are recharged and the spirit is healed - what then?

    My ideal for an eternal timescale is something active, positive, growing from love and engaged in genuine creation; in an expanding divine creation to which others (Men, and all other Beings - which I take to include animals, plants and so-called 'minerals' such as planets and stars) are contributing and participating.

    In other words, I see your ideal as contemplative, passive and static - perhaps tending towards a state of blissful reabsorption in divine unity; whereas my ideal is to join with the primary creator (who is a person, not abstract) in the ongoing work of creating.

    Since creating is derived from love (love is the coherence of creation), and love is about relationships, my Heaven is like that - i.e. a place of overlapping and linked 'families' (both procreative and adoptive) - almost the opposite of a borderless world; and these interpersonal relationships extend to other not-human Beings.

    Where every individual is different and unique in their nature and contribution - and harmony is not from unity but from shared goals and a commitment to love (underpinned by a commitment for exclusion of everything that is Not of love, which is opposed to love). I think there are always preferences and favourites.

    [To illustrate; in the Fourth Gospel (John) Jesus is always described as loving particular persons, even among the disciples. I think this is a picture of the nature of the highest love: i.e. interpersonal and differentiated, not universally-equal.]

    Perhaps we are both extrapolating from what each us us regards as the best of this actual life: but for you the best is perhaps an immersive contemplative bliss - timeless, and maybe without much in the way of thinking - with Love as a state: impersonal, universal, undiscriminating, unconditional etc?

    Whereas for me the best of this actual life are the specifics of interpersonal love (family and marriage especially), and dynamic, creative thinking - in which I feel self-consciously a part of ongoing creation - i.e. when my thoughts are participating in the developing and transforming reality, and are being taken-up and incorporated-into already-existing and eternal creation.
    I like the way you distinguish the active and dynamic expression of creation IN LOVE with the passive removing of ills. Just taking away pain is sort of an inversion itself IMO in the scheme of things? I don't believe in "no pain no gain" either. Everything GOOD has a place which contributes. I feel we are very young beings who are learning but I also think we have been captured. This may not be so but it looks like that to me. We have been placed on a hamster wheel that goes round and round and our power is used to turn it, IMO. THis teaches us nothing except that we need to get off the wheel.

    From what I have read and understood, we humans are very creative and our creativity has been hijacked. We work for EVIL and inversion of the GOOD because we "think" that certain conditions are true and inevitable. We think if we were to stop making the wheel go around, we'd die.

    My dream is to have a chance to be on earth with conscious awareness of creation and cooperation in this creation and no EVIL. It would look much the same but it would not keep repeating and also we'd CHERISH life and cherish is the name.....

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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    It'd be fun travelling the stars and helping new intelligent species advance.

    But it would be way more fun exploring my own limits and abilities unhindered.

    That's my private fantasy: to be able to act as I wish and not as I am forced to act to pay the bills. 800,000 hours of servitude is too high a price to pay for a roof over my head and food in my belly.


    On a societal level, the idea of open-ended growth has been identified as a great danger for many decades. It was a basic Liberal talking point when the Liberals were still a rational organization. Since the radicalization of the liberal movement and its sidling up to the corporate teat, the liberal ideals have been captured and repurposed. Instead of being the fall back position of the grass roots and powered by organic fundamentals, the liberal movement has been hijacked and become authoritative, condescending, and irrational. Instead of the middle-of-the-road majority, it now caters to the misfits, lunatics, fringe nutcases, and the depraved. Their motto has morphed from 'No one left behind' to 'Our way or no way'.

    The Liberals may save us from the excesses of open-ended growth but the world they wish to usher in in its place is Draconian and inhumane : both antithetical to the traditional Liberal Movement.

    The Liberal Movement of today is so anti-liberal it makes the conservatives look downright progressive in comparison!
    Last edited by Ernie Nemeth; 24th March 2023 at 15:52.
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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    Quote Posted by Bruce G Charlton (here)
    @Bill - I have to say that I would not for very long appreciate living in the society you describe!

    It is indeed an idyll, in the sense of being a holiday, a rest, a place to heal and recharge batteries... but essentially I regard it as a series of negative attributes; the kind of situation that might result from removing the pains and miseries and afflictions.

    But after the batteries are recharged and the spirit is healed - what then?
    Thanks for the excellent question!

    I might offer this as a scaled-down analogy to my sketch of a near-idyllic planetary society.

    Let's imagine one lives in a happy, peaceful, loving, stable family. And that may also be in a happy, peaceful, loving, stable neighbourhood.

    Just because there are no problems at home to make one's life challenging, that doesn't mean there are none to be found anywhere. One might venture off to work every day to wrestle with huge issues on a much larger scale.

    Map that on to a happy, peaceful, loving, stable, planetary culture. Maybe their focus is on interplanetary travel where some distance from home they'd find themselves encountering and dealing with major problems and issues aplenty.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 24th March 2023 at 16:32.

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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    The quote "The center is everywhere, the circumference nowhere" is attributed to Hermes Trismegistus, an ancient Greek philosopher and spiritual master who is associated with the Hermetic tradition of ancient Egypt. This quote reflects a mystical understanding of the nature of reality, one in which the concept of a fixed center or boundary is dissolved in favour of a more fluid, interconnected view of the universe.

    In this view, the "center" refers to a point of stability, a place of balance and harmony from which all things arise. The "circumference," on the other hand, refers to the boundaries or limitations that we place on our perception of reality. According to Hermes Trismegistus, the center is everywhere because it exists within all things, and the circumference is nowhere because it is an illusion that we create with our limited perspective.

    The quote suggests that we are all connected to this universal center, and that our sense of separation and isolation is an illusion created by our own minds. By recognizing the interconnectedness of all things, we can expand our perception of reality and move beyond the limitations of our own ego-centered consciousness. This can lead to a greater sense of unity, harmony, and spiritual awareness.
    “One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. The latter procedure, however, is disagreeable and therefore not popular.” (Carl Jung)

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    Germany Avalon Member Michi's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    And here's a little story. Let's just say that I invented it.

    There exists an ET race that's almost utopian in their society, living on a planet many light-years from here.

    They're a highly altruistic, spiritually and technically advanced race. They're very wonderful people, and they're very aware of us (and our predicament) on Planet Earth. They regard us with compassion and concern.

    To introduce them, so to speak, they're very human-looking indeed, just a little shorter than us in stature. Their average height is something like 5' 4" or so (162-163 cm). They have very Japanese-oriental eyes, a little bigger than ours proportionally but which make them look very beautiful.

    Their planet has just one unified civilization (no nation-states, borders, different races or different languages), and they've mastered every technological and medical problem. Their lifespan is close to 200 earth-years, and any kind of sickness or disability is very unusual but almost always quickly remedied.

    They know that they reincarnate. Their population is stable (they reproduce as we do, and all children are greatly loved and valued) and they keep good track of the spiritual lineage of who used to be who in their history. They have families as we know them, but there's also a significant emphasis on the role of the community in sharing all tasks and any problems that need to be solved.

    Their whole society would seem idyllic to us. They don't have elections, but are governed by a group that Plato would have recognized as 'Philosopher-Kings', and Native Americans as kinds of wise, respected Tribal Elders. There's almost no crime of any kind, or harm done to one another. Anything like that which ever happens, which is very rare, is regarded as a case of mental illness. They have advanced military capability, but only for planetary defense if ever needed.

    They have their own wildlife, forests and oceans, in many ways similar to ours, which are protected and regarded with something that could be called reverence. All life is held as sacred. There's no pollution. Their manufacturing is all controlled by benevolent, 'clean' AI. Natural minerals, when needed, are mined from nearby lifeless rocky planets. A great deal is very thoroughly and effectively recycled.

    Besides not having crime or corruption, they don't use money (as in Star Trek ), and there's no 'capitalism' as such. Everyone's needs are met. That eliminates all greed. There's just no need for it.

    They do not kill animals or eat meat of any kind. An aberration like that would be seen rather as we regard cannibalism.

    What they do is live a peaceful life in which every possible need is met, and so their cultural focus is all about assisting other cultures in the galaxy. They're like scientists, explorers, anthropologists, guides, teachers and counselors.

    ~~~

    The End. Maybe readers could regard this story as a way of comparing our current human civilization with how it could, one day, just possibly be.

    Bill, I am yearning for such a home.

    Some may say: "There is no challenge." or "There is no ambition to grow." or "In such a perfect world, there is nothing else to reach."

    But here comes the spoiler:

    There are always higher and grander games to play, grander goals to reach.

    Man's visions are often around "Who is stronger, better, smarter, etc."
    But that doesn't mean there isn't anything beyond. Maybe there are civilizations who aren't centered around "stronger, better and smarter".
    Just because one only can conceive of oneself versus the others doesn't mean anything else is doomed to fail.
    Last edited by Michi; 24th March 2023 at 21:01.
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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    We certainly don't want to be fighting for the ability to grow ourselves out of a planet that can sustain us, and that is why the globalists agendas are on such a tipping point. Of course we need to reduce pollution, restore our atmosphere and oceans and land, and of course there is a limit to human population - all these are very important considerations for the sake of future generations.

    But to put it simply, there are sharks currently jumping in on this reality and trying to use it to control people into giving them total control of the planet, by taking advantage of people's desire to make these changes. The WEF to a large part, is made up of multi - billionaire globalist industrialist, that made their billions and accepted their control from taking advantage of people developing industries that are the very cause of these problems they say they are trying to solve. Pharma giants, oil and gas giants, chemical giants, energy giants, - they way they have conducted business and the products they shoved down our throats literally created all the problems we face today.

    This is why they turn the focus toward the average person, and tell us that we are to blame for all the world's pollution, and all the mental health issues. They are shifting the blame, and telling us its all out fault, but then they go a step further and say, "If you really care about fixing it, you will eat synthetic foods, live in a tiny bubbles, and subscribe to our systems of total control over your lives - you will surrender your freedoms if you really care"

    Fun fact: the top 1% richest people in the world have a 200% higher carbon footprint than the bottom 50% of all people. Basic math and common sense says that if we want the fastest return on reducing carbon, the richest 1% would be the targets. not the average person. But carbon reduction is not what any of this is about in the WEFs eyes, and that's why they don't care. Its about control over the masses.

    The majority of pollution and plastic in the ocean is from industry and fishing giants that don't care how their practices and products are destroying the oceans. This has decimated phytoplankton which absorbs the vast majority of atmospheric carbon. If the WEF and its industrial partners cared at all about atmospheric carbon, they wouldn't be concerned about what you ate or where you traveled or what drugs you were forced to take, they would be addressing the issues with the oceans. Of course this means that they really couldn't care less about you reducing your carbon footprint - their goals and agendas have nothing to do with that.

    The guise of "doing the right thing" is a road to hell laid out by the industrial globalists. What they want is to keep the "way" they do things going, but just on a scale that allows them to not have to change their ways. Changing their ways would put them in a disadvantaged situation vs currently. They are struggling to hold onto their wealth and power and the agenda they are promoting under the guise of "saving the planet" is exactly for that purpose.

    All the systems that create their "ways" and their wicked products rely extremely heavily on open loop systems - systems that always creates a horrible byproduct in result - an undesirable that has to be kicked out of the system, whatever that may be.

    The actual solution is using technology, science, innovation and nature to move the "way" we do things into closed loop systems - or as close as we can get to it. We need to bring ourselves into harmony with nature, our planet, and each other. The global rulers, fear this drastically because they know the result will collapse all their systems, all their ways, all their power and wealth. This is holographically the same process as an individual freeing themselves from the confines of their ego's self destructive thoughts and emotions - this same process, as we go through it individually (and we must to some extent) has to be reflected externally as well. "As above, so below"

    It is almost entirely "the way" we do things that are the problem. I do not believe the world is overpopulated. I did some quick math the other day and I found that if you took every single person on the whole planet, gave them a one square meter space to stand on, you could fit everyone into a space about 1/4 the size of Vancouver island, or about the size of New York city. That's every human on the entire planet. Grab a globe and take a look at how that compares to the rest of the available liveable land.

    The problem is the way we do things, they way we have been led to do things by the same ruling globalist elite that say we are the problem and that they need to control us to fix things. I even look at the design of modern housing, and I am baffled at the lack of good and innovative engineering that goes into them - they are designed to make a few people a lot of money - both in the creation process, and in the inhabitation. They are not designed for any type of efficiency, because efficiency takes money out of the hands of big business, regulators, and their giant corporations.

    In short, we do need to change and a lot of it quickly, but we need to reject fully and vehemently the WEF, UN, WHO, etc. and we need to start creating properly new and innovative systems on our own that work toward achieving these goals.
    Last edited by DeDukshyn; 25th March 2023 at 02:44.
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    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    Quote Posted by DeDukshyn (here)
    The guise of "doing the right thing" is a road to hell laid out by the industrial globalists. What they want is to keep the "way" they do things going, but just on a scale that allows them to not have to change their ways.

    Usually that is the case.

    The reason I mentioned Maurice Strong was that his example was quite destructive and slated for the relatively near-term future.

    In his words, industrialized societies "go poof".

    Well, we could say a relatively close comparison is slavery. I think it was probably a pretty big driver of the economy; if anyone would argue about that, put it in another thread. Also it is comparable because "slavery" can easily become as emotionally exciting as "environmentalism". Here's the thing. If you just "end slavery" as if by the stroke of an axe, you wake up with millions of unemployed homeless people.

    In cases like this, we are not usually offered a realistic transition.

    Continuing "as usual" in the expectations of WEF and the like, would appear to interest us in rechargeable batteries.

    The only alternative would be something tangible that actually works better than any known industrial product. There is simply a phenomenal amount of energy in petroleum. This limit on growth used to be highly associated with "Peak Oil" which again probably does reflect a stratum of reality, which does not mean we should implement some guy's calculations as law. When we combine the disappearance of a product with the accumulation of its waste, we can be fairly certain we are in a dead end.

    I have no idea what it would be like if petroleum energy were distributed equitably rather than for profit.

    Last time I checked, it can definitely be replaced by horses and hand tools. Not as much, but works for basic survival.

    The ability to smoothly transition from petroleum to something we don't even know what is yet, is kind of concerning.

    A very good marker is the Earth Summit. This was started in 1992, when I thought they were doing the right thing, and let's remember that in America at least, there was a lot of resentment about Bush I and war for oil and so on, and so it was a perfect opportunity for these environmentalists and it certainly worked on me. I started going "wait a minute..." with Yugoslavia and the repeal of Glass-Steagall. Time goes by and there was a 20th anniversary Earth Summit in 2012. One of the speakers was a girl who was not even born for the first one, she was about twelve or so, and even in her lifetime believed she had seen things go exactly backwards.

    So, yes, very "as usual" during all that. And still.

    With exposure and maybe some actual prosecutions, I think that kind of regime could be flushed out, and we might manage not to witness an "oil crash" in our lifetimes. The future is particularly hosed for Americans because of the national debt.

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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

    The best presentation I've yet seen in any form is this new online hour-long lecture delivered last week by Dr Chris Martenson to UC Berkeley students who were studying sustainability. It's the best he's got, which means this is both simple and world-class. Those who are familiar with Martenson know that he's pretty much the best explainer of complex issues that we've got.
    Here's Chris Martenson's UC Berkeley presentation in three YouTube parts, totaling an hour. Highly recommended.




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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    A Falun Gong perspective.

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/falun-...t_5000952.html

    'Falun Gong Founder Mr. Li Hongzhi Publishes ‘How Humankind Came To Be’

    Mr. Li Hongzhi is the founder of the spiritual discipline Falun Gong. The practice combines meditation and gentle exercises with a moral philosophy centered on the tenets of truthfulness, compassion, and tolerance.

    After Mr. Li introduced the practice to the public in China in the early 1990s, an estimated 100 million people started practicing. Since then, the practice has spread to more than 100 countries around the world.

    Despite this, in China, the practice has been subjected to extreme persecution by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). This includes a campaign of hate propaganda and censorship by the CCP, both in China and in the West. The Epoch Times, on the occasion of the Chinese New Year, is honored to provide a platform to Mr. Li.

    Mr. Li is a four-time Nobel Peace Prize nominee and was nominated by the European Parliament for the Sakharov Prize for Freedom of Thought. He is also the recipient of Freedom House’s International Religious Freedom Award.

    Mr. Li is the author of the book “Zhuan Falun,” which has been translated into 40 languages.

    The following is the article “How Humankind Came to Be” by Mr. Li, translated from Chinese.

    ***

    How Humankind Came To Be
    I would like to first pass along my greetings to everyone on the advent of the Chinese New Year.

    New Year’s would normally be a time for sharing a few pleasant remarks about the occasion. But I am seeing imminent danger approaching humanity, and have been called upon by divine beings to pass along, for this reason, several things to everyone in this world. Each of what I am about to disclose is a higher, closely guarded secret, and these are being shared to provide a true picture of affairs, and to give people another chance at salvation.

    First is the question of how humankind came about. From the dawn of its creation to its final days, the universe has gone through an exceptionally long passage of time consisting of four stages: Formation, Stasis, Degeneration, and Destruction. When the final point of the Destruction stage is reached, the complete obliteration of everything in the greater cosmic body—which includes the universe in which we exist—takes place instantaneously, and all living things perish!

    When a person dies, it is just a matter of his physical body declining and breaking down, while his true soul (which is who he really is, and which does not die with the passing of his physical body) will continue on in a next life, being reborn. So just as the universe goes through formation, stasis, degeneration, and destruction, so too do human beings go through birth, aging, illness, and death. These are laws of the universe, to which even higher beings are subject, only the time span is longer, with the process being more drawn out in proportion to how great the beings are. Life and death are not painful for them, and they remain cognizant throughout these processes—to them, it is as if but changing outfits. Put differently, normally, lives do not really die. When the universe and the cosmos disintegrate at the final stage of the Formation-Stasis-Degeneration-Destruction process, however, lives will not be reborn, and there will be no more existence of life or matter, with all turning to dust and there being only emptiness. Currently, the human world is experiencing the last period in the Destruction phase of the Formation-Stasis-Degeneration-Destruction progression. Everything has changed for the worse in these end times, as fated, and destruction is thus imminent. And it is for this reason that the world is so troubled. Good thoughts are rare, people’s minds have become twisted, debauchery and drug abuse are rampant, and people subscribe to atheism. These are inevitable in the last stage of the cosmos, and bespeak of the time at which we have arrived!

    The Creator cherishes all of the heavenly beings that exist as well as all of the lives that are good and kind, and all of the glorious creations in the cosmos. So at the beginning of the Degeneration stage, the Creator led a number of divine beings to the outermost plane of the cosmic body (known generally as “that which is outside the Divine Realm”), a place where there are no divine beings, and created Earth. But Earth hadn’t the capacity to exist independently; it needed for there to be a corresponding cosmic structure with which it could form a circulatory system involving life and matter. For this reason, the Creator made a larger expanse outside of the Earth, which higher beings refer to as the “Three Realms.” Before the final time of salvation arrived, no higher beings, however great, would be allowed to enter this expanse without the Creator’s permission. The expanse of the Three Realms comprises three major realms: the Realm of Desire (yu), which is made up of the lives on this earth, including humankind; a second realm, the Realm of Likings (se), which is above it; and a third realm, further above, known as the Realm Without Likings (wu se). Each successive realm is higher and more glorious than that below it, though none can compare to the Divine Realm or the many heavenly kingdoms still higher. The “heaven” that people normally refer to is in fact within either the Realm of Likings or the Realm Without Likings, within the Three Realms. Each of the Three Realms has 10 planes within it, making for a total of 33 planes in all, if you include the Three Realms themselves. Human beings reside in the Realm of Desire, and this is the lowest of all planes, with the worst environment. Life is painful and short here, but more dreadful still is the fact that in the human world, few of the things people take to be truths are actually valid. What human beings hold to be true is on the whole considered the opposite in the larger universe (but an exception is the higher truths that holy beings have taught to man). For example, the divine does not consider it right for whomever is victorious in battle to become ruler, for territory to be seized by military force, or for the powerful to be seen as heroes, since killing and forcefully taking from others are involved. That is not the way of the universe, nor how higher beings go about things. Yet in the human world, these are inevitable and accepted. Those are the ways of the human world, but they are contrary to the ways of the universe. Thus, if a person wishes to return to heaven, he must follow true, higher laws and work on himself. Some people are content when they are doing a bit better in life than others. But such people are only comparing themselves with other human beings within this human realm, when everyone here is in fact living in what is considered to be the trash bin of the universe. The Three Realms were established at the outermost perimeter of the cosmic body, and everything here is made up of the lowest, crudest, and filthiest of particles—molecules, atoms, and the like. In the eyes of higher beings, this is where the trash of the universe is cast away. They thus regard this plane of molecules as dust or “clay” and see it as the lowliest of places. This is the origin of the belief held in some religions that man was made by the divine out of clay. Man was indeed formed out of matter at the molecular plane.

    When divine beings made man, they did so at the Creator’s behest, and He instructed them to each make human beings in their own unique image. For this reason, there are the white, yellow, black, and other races. While their outward appearances differ, the souls within them were given by the Creator. And that is why they have common values. The purpose that the Creator had in directing divine beings to make man was to make use of man in the final times when He would offer all lives of the greater universe—including holy beings—salvation.

    But why would the Creator have divine beings create humans in such a lowly and inferior place? It was because, with this being the universe’s lowest plane, it is the most grueling of places, and only when things are trying and painful may a person elevate himself through spiritual practice and shed his or her karma. When a person, amidst painful experiences, still manages to keep kind thoughts, have gratitude, and be a good person, he or she is growing through it. Salvation is a process of ascending from low to high, and so one has to start from the bottom. Life is trying for anyone living here. There are the tensions between people when they are trying to make out better, there is the terrible state of the natural environment, and there is the fact that just getting by in life takes a great deal of thought and effort, to name just a few examples. All of these circumstances provide people with opportunities to develop themselves and lessen their karma. It is certain that going through hardships can help people to atone for their sins and karma. And anyone who manages to stay good-natured amidst painful situations and interpersonal troubles is going to build up merit and virtue and, as a result, will achieve the elevation of his or her soul.

    With the arrival of modern times, the Creator had intended to utilize mainly the human body to save the many lives of the universe. And so the souls originally in the majority of human bodies here were replaced by those of higher beings, who incarnated in them. With a human body, they could reduce their karma and sins by enduring hardship. And in this place that is devoid of truth, they could, by holding fast to the higher truths taught by God and persevering in goodness and kindness, achieve the elevation of their souls. The end times are now upon us; the Heavenly Gate that leads out of the Three Realms has been opened, and the Creator is choosing such beings for deliverance.

    Everything in the universe had become impure during the Formation, Stasis, and Degeneration phases, and inferior to when creation was begun. And this is why things are heading for Destruction. In other words, everything in the greater universe has gone bad, the lives of creation are no longer as good as they were in the very beginning, are no longer pure, and all of them have accrued karma and sins. And this accounts for Destruction coming about. This kind of sin is what has been referred to in religious contexts as original sin. So that the universe could be saved, the Creator directed a multitude of higher beings and divine sovereigns to descend to the earth and assume human form in this setting, where they would suffer, elevate, atone for their sins, and forge themselves anew—re-ascending to heaven as a result. (The Creator has been re-making the universe at the same time as saving humankind.) The new universe is perfectly pure and simply glorious. If, in a trying setting like this, a person can still keep his thoughts virtuous; if he can hold his ground against the onslaught of modern values and views, and stick to traditional ones; and if he still believes in the divine in the face of assaults from the atheist and evolutionary camps, then that person will fulfill his purpose: to gain salvation and return to heaven. All of the madness now unfolding in the world was planned as such, for the final phase, by divine beings. Their goal was to test the lives here and see whether they were worthy of salvation, and give them a chance to, in the process, work off their sins and karma while going through difficult things. And all of this was done so that people could be saved and gain deliverance back to heaven.

    All of this is to say that the purpose of people’s lives on this earth isn’t to accomplish something in the world. All of the intense efforts and attempts people make in life, and their drive to get what they want, which can even involve resorting to unscrupulous means, only make people immoral in the end. The reason people came to this world and became human was to atone for their sins and karma, and to make significant spiritual progress. People came to this world to gain salvation. They came and assumed human form to await the Creator and his salvation back to their heavenly kingdom. And while they waited, they built up merit over their many past lives, and that was the purpose of people’s rebirths. The troubled nature of this world is meant to make something great of these lives. Of course, there are some people who, when seeking divine help in times of duress, haven’t been satisfied with the outcome and started to loathe God—even turning against Him as a result. Some have even turned to the demonic, dark side, and committed still further sins and made yet more karma. Those whom this applies to had best quickly come around and beg God for forgiveness, if they are still to have a chance of reaching safety. Everything that happens in one’s life—whether it seems warranted or not—is, in reality, the karmic consequence of what one did in one’s past lives, for better or for worse. The amount of blessings and virtue that one built up in one’s past lives determine what fortune is in store in this lifetime, or perhaps the next. If one lives a blessed and virtuous life now, perhaps it will translate in one’s next lifetime into a high position and salary, or it might translate into different kinds of wealth and fortune. And this would also include whether one has a happy family, or even how one’s children turn out, and so on. This is the fundamental reason why some people are wealthy and others poor, why some hold positions of high rank while others are destitute and homeless. It’s nothing like the diabolical nonsense that sinister communism spouts about equality between rich and poor. The universe is fair. Those who do good are blessed for it, while those who do bad things will face payback—if not in this life, then in the next. For this is an immutable law of the universe! Heaven, Earth, the Divine, and the Creator alike are compassionate toward all lives. Heaven and Earth, just as was man, were made by the Creator, and it is never the case that He plays favorites with some lives and shortchanges others. The reason some people lead happy lives and others do not all comes down to rewards and retribution for past deeds.

    When you see people winning or losing in life, it appears to come about in a normal way from things in this world. But it is ultimately the karmic consequences of those people’s past doings. Whether people have something or not, or are winning or losing in life, is going to play out in ways that accord with this world. So no matter whether you are rich or poor in life, you should be sure to do good, refrain from doing bad things, stay good and kind, be spiritual and devout, and be happy to help others. And by doing so, you will build up blessings and virtue, and reap their rewards in the next life. In the past, the older generation in China would often talk about things like not lamenting your lot in life when things are hard and about earning a better next life by gaining virtue through good deeds. And the point was that it’s useless praying to God for help if you didn’t do good things in your former life and earn blessings. The universe has its laws, and even higher beings must obey them. Even they will be punished if they do things they shouldn’t. So things are not as simple as people take them to be. Should people expect higher beings to give them whatever they pray for? The prerequisite is that one has to have built up the blessings and virtue for it over past lifetimes. And so the things that come to you are on account of the blessings and virtue you have! This is what the laws of the universe dictate. But speaking on a fundamental level, getting what you want is not the ultimate goal of accumulating blessings and virtue. The real purpose of building those up is to pave the way for you back to heaven. And that is what’s most crucial, not the brief round of happiness that they can bring you in this lifetime!

    Teacher Li Hongzhi

    Jan. 20, 2023'

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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    This is the first of a series of videos presented by Chris Martenson on exactly the topic of this thread.

    In this first one, 45 mins long, he starts slow (like the exponential function!), and the only thing he wants anyone to take away from his detailed explanation is that exponential growth always starts slow — and then very suddenly speeds up wildly towards the end.

    That applies to money printing, debt, GDP, use of resources, oil production (so far!), pollution, deforestation, and almost everything in our lives. And it can't continue this way.

    Crash Course 2.0: Chapter 1 (Setting the Table)


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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    Part 2 (30 mins) of Chris Martenson's important new series.

    The most interesting part of this for me was the last 5 minutes. Martenson reminds us:
    • It's not the money system itself that causes out-of-control inflation. It's the managers of the money system.
    • When the money system breaks down, then society breaks down. Even if there are plenty of natural resources, factories in good shape, and good honest people willing to work hard every day.

    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 17th May 2023 at 14:29.

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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    Here, all at once, are the next four installments of Chris Martenson's Crash Course.

    This is a feast for Martenson fans (and I am one), but in my opinion most Avalon members (and maybe guests!) may be able to skip the first three below because they just lay foundations for what most here may already know:
    1. What 'wealth' really is (not money! Hard assets, land, tools, houses, health, family, community, security and much more);
    2. How banking works to create money simply by lending it;
    3. What the US Federal Reserve really is and what exactly it does. (This is a US-focused series, but exactly the same principles apply globally to all nations.)
    But the fourth, about Inflation, I'd totally recommend. I learned some things here I never knew or fully understood.

    As a reminder to readers here, this is all posted on the 'Limits to Growth' thread because all this is 100% slam-dunk totally unsustainable. The entire system will break. The only thing we don't know is exactly when, but it's going to be quite soon now.

    And (coming later in the series) is the inextricable connection of global finance (and ever increasing 'economic growth') to a finite planet with limited natural resources. If we could wiggle our noses and instantly magic into existence anything we needed (oil, gas, copper, lithium, great food, and everything else), there'd be no problem.

    But we can't.




    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 31st May 2023 at 10:36.

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    Default Re: The Limits to Growth, and the Human Condition

    Here's an hour long interview of Chris Martenson by Mike Adams from Natural News. The video summary says it all:

    Dr. Chris Martenson from Peak Prosperity talks with Mike Adams about currency, ENERGY, supply chains and how this chapter of history ends in catastrophe.

    https://www.brighteon.com/0b94cea7-4...c-7c9b4bc2601c

    Source: https://www.brighteon.com/embed/0b94cea7-4353-4bf3-be1c-7c9b4bc2601c

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