Mountain Lions, Pumas, and other Big Cats

[Bill Ryan]

Dear Friends, this thread has been created by copying over a handful of interesting posts — some slightly edited here to focus on the new topic — from Mara returns to the Mountains, where I shared this photo a few days ago:



That impressively large and clear puma print sparked some sincere concern (for good reasons!), and I felt the discussion was so interesting that it was probably best to start this new thread. I've left all the original posts in place, all of which were truly appreciated. But now that thread, about Mara's astonishing and wonderful return to the mountains. can go gently back to topic.

[Bill Ryan]

Folks. here's a hot-on-the-heels update that has astonished and delighted me almost as much as our breakthrough mountain hike I shared here the other day.


We did it again yesterday, this time with no support team (therefore no drone!), and we were easily able to go even further up the high grassy valley. It was a really hot blue-sky day, so I planned the route to include plenty of water. We were on the move (or in the water!) for a full two and a half hours.

And some light relief — sort of! I've encountered puma scat many times (for non-English speakers, this is the scientific term for poop), but I've never seen a puma itself, or even a print. But yesterday our trail was covered in crystal clear puma tracks that looked very fresh indeed. It was probably just a few hours ahead of us (or maybe less!), and might even have been watching us all the time.

Look at the size of this giant cat's paw:

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Lovely vid - Mara looks in her element.

But the puma. That's essentially a mountain lion -- not a creature you'd want to stumble across. Do you have adequate protection, just in case?

[Dennis Leahy]

Thanks for posting the updates on Mara, Bill. It is truly uplifting to see her back in her element. She has been such an important being in your life (and you, in hers!)

Can she see light and dark? It sure seems like she can.

That BIG puma track should not be "ignored" (I know you're not ignoring it), and may be a strong sign to take a gun - quickly accessible, holstered, not in your pack - with you on your hikes. Certainly, a hunting puma would target Mara and not you. You'd maybe have 2 seconds, max, to fire a shot (warning, or deadly aimed.) I wouldn't want to face a puma with just a hiking pole to defend yourself, and a hiking pole won't save Mara from an attack. Compared to the extremely quick prey that this puma has been eating to get that big, you, and especially Mara, are easy prey, and the puma will immediately sense that.

You have been an amazing friend to Mara, and she is lucky to enjoy your company and love. To me, the big story isn't "Mara's travails", but rather Bill and Mara's friendship, your mutual love. It may be trivial in the big picture of what is going on in the world, but far from unimportant.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

If I knew there were things like Pumas running around out there (pointing vaguely at my front door), I don't think I would go outside! I've seen a number of hiking/cycling/walking videos where a dangerous animal appears out of nowhere. It's pretty damn scary.

One recently was of a coyote that appeared in front of a guy on a walking path. It was extremely aggressive (may have had pups nearby). He only saved himself by throwing rocks at it. Several more clips I've seen have involved bears. When I had a dog, I worried about crossing a farmer's field with cows in it (if one was a bull). Fortunately, in the UK, our wildlife isn't that wild!

The only time I've been truly fearful of 'nature' in the UK was on one occasion as a teenager hiking on Dartmoor with my brother-in-law in the dead of night. That was sketchy as hell, because in that neck of the woods there were spooky rumours of Black Dogs on the prowl. If you know your folklore (and Britain's full of it), the semi-mythical Black Dogs inspired the famous Sherlock Holmes tale The Hound of the Baskervilles. Granted, these stories may be no more than a tale told around the fire in pubs, mostly by old timers over their pint, the ones with a gimlet eye, but when you're out on Dartmoor, miles from anywhere, in the pitch dark and howling wind...you can't help but wonder if, perhaps, that howling you hear is not the wind.

Bill, get a gun!

[Pam]

Posted by Mark (Star Mariner) (here)
If I knew there were things like Pumas running around out there (pointing vaguely at my front door), I don't think I would go outside! I've seen a number of hiking/cycling/walking videos where a dangerous animal appears out of nowhere. It's pretty damn scary.

One recently was of a coyote that appeared in front of a guy on a walking path. It was extremely aggressive (may have had pups nearby). He only saved himself by throwing rocks at it. Several more clips I've seen have involved bears. When I had a dog, I worried about crossing a farmer's field with cows in it (if one was a bull). Fortunately, in the UK, our wildlife isn't that wild!

The only time I've been truly fearful of 'nature' in the UK was on one occasion as a teenager hiking on Dartmoor with my brother-in-law in the dead of night. That was sketchy as hell, because in that neck of the woods there were spooky rumours of Black Dogs on the prowl. If you know your folklore (and Britain's full of it), the semi-mythical Black Dogs inspired the famous Sherlock Holmes tale The Hound of the Baskervilles. Granted, these stories may be no more than a tale told around the fire in pubs, mostly by old timers over their pint, the ones with a gimlet eye, but when you're out on Dartmoor, miles from anywhere, in the pitch dark and howling wind...you can't help but wonder if, perhaps, that howling you hear is not the wind.

Bill, get a gun!

I love you and respect your wisdom, but this feeling of natural separation from the natural world is what I am questioning. Every sentient creature has its right to be a part of the entire scheme of things. The folly of humans is that somehow we deserve to avoid any of that.

The last foster dog I took in was a huge Siberan Husky. I mean huge. He had only been neutered a couple days before coming to live with me. I remember the day well. He was frollicking and feeling his dominance. I was working the property and he aggressively approached me. It was not about maliciousness, it was about establishing dominance and he was about to do that with me. He wished to be the Alpha in the household. I knew I didn't stand a chance against this magnificent beast. He was ready to jump me, and no doubt would have ripped me to pieces, if I had played the fearful weak prey role but I was sort of given inspiration outside myself to create a stance, a feeling of strength and surety. We stood , looking at other for probably 5 minutes. I sort of puffed out my stance and gave him direct eye contact. I projected strength and offered no movement. This of course is the antithesis of my real personality. At any rate, he lost interest in the dominance thing for the moment and I avioded an attack that might be quite normal in the dog world.

I don't believe in separation from the animal world. If I would have been mauled, well, it was on me. I chose what I did. Let's not separate ourselves from the natural world and the creatures that have manage to survive our holocaust against them. What right do we have to do that? I don't expect this post to be understood but it's all good. Still love you Mark, even though we have a disagreement on this level.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Posted by Pam (here)
Let's not separate ourselves from the natural world and the creatures that have manage to survive our holocaust against them. What right do we have to do that? I don't expect this post to be understood but it's all good. Still love you Mark, even though we have a disagreement on this level.

Love you too Pam .

I wouldn't ever want to hurt an animal -- or a human for that matter -- but sometimes that animal (or human) wants to and will hurt you. 'Nature' isn't all puppy dogs and butterflies, deadly threats exist too. There's a difference between a dog for example, domesticated in its DNA for many of thousands of years, and a wild cat like a puma. I'm not an expert on such matters, but it might be possible to stare down a puma and make it blink first, like you can do with a dog, but it's also quite possible you'd lose that contest. In that event, you might be dead before you get to blink again.

I think even coming from a higher, spiritual perspective, it would not be a sin to kill an animal (also a human) to protect and preserve your life. Self-preservation is hard-wired into us, it's perhaps our first, most basic instinct. To surrender our lives when it could be prevented -- I think that would be a sin. Yes, the puma has as just as much right to live as we do, so does a bear, a man-eating shark, or a rabid pit-bull. But if one of these animals was about to end our life, I believe it's our sovereign right, and I think our very obligation, to do everything we can to thwart it. Even if it means firing a gun.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Mark (Star Mariner) (here)
Even if it means firing a gun.

That's not gonna happen.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Mark (Star Mariner) (here)
Even if it means firing a gun.

That's not gonna happen.

Actually, that might have seemed unintentionally a little curt (it was intended to be light-hearted ), and so my sincere apologies (especially to Dennis) whose post was kind, thoughtful and full of rock-solid practical sense.

If I ever see a puma, I'll report it right here. But I should add that in maybe 1000+ miles of high wilderness hiking in probably 100+ days since 2015, I've never seen a puma — just the scat (quite a few times) and last week was the first time I've ever seen tracks.

I've also searched on the net for any reported instances of puma attacks in Ecuador, and so far I've found none at all. I have a friend who speaks excellent English and who's a professional mountain guide, running the restaurant at the trailhead to the high grassy valley which Mara and I hiked to successfully twice now. Next time I see him I'll certainly ask what he knows or has heard about. My guess is that he'll dismiss the danger. But I'll still ask him.

[Bill Ryan]

Two anecdote, neither of them my own. The first isn't about big cats, but about bears — similar in some ways, of course.

This is a true story. A good friend of mine, when she was a little girl, frequently went hiking with her mother in Yosemite National Park in California.

She and her mother were on a good hiking trail, when they rounded a corner in the forest and came face-to-face with a momma black bear and her cub. The two mothers and their cubs both stood absolutely still and looked at each other for a long time.

Then, very slowly and carefully, the two mothers-and-cubs passed respectfully by each other — and just continued on their way.

My friend often shared this story as a kind of parable about the sanctity of motherhood.

~~~

And another story, reported by another friend of mine when she was also a little girl, then living in a remote area of Western Scotland, in Argyll, right by the sea (a tiny place called Ellary). She went for a short walk on her own and came face to face with a golden-tawny colored cat just as big as she was.

Remarkably, the cat was not aggressive (or hungry!), and after staring at each other for a few moments, they each turned round and ran off in opposite directions.

Big cats in Britain are a definite reality, btw... do see this separate thread:

• Big cats in the UK

This topic is far from nonsense. What happened was that back in 1976 there was a change in the law, and people keeping big cats as pets were now required to register them. Many just released them into the countryside, instead — where there were so many rabbits and sheep and deer it was easy for them to survive and breed.

[shaberon]

I have only done this one time:


fed pumas.


Just from that relatively minor contact, I would tend to say they are non-threatening.

This was in the context of feeding other dangerous beasts, such as bears and wolves, and I got the sense that most of them are non-threatening. Moreover, the big cats seemed very similar to some housecats. They're not necessarily your friend, but, they may check you out in a somewhat neutral manner, in a way that makes it appear you could develop a friendship in the long term.

Of course, you wouldn't have much way to make friends unless you feed them, which is probably a bad idea.

The way in which Indian tigers are considered dangerous usually concerns dilapidated rogue tigers. They get old and lose their teeth and it becomes too difficult for them to hunt normally. So they pounce on unsuspecting people. If South American pumas were like this, there would probably be stories.

Around here, wild cats make an unusual nocturnal sound, something like a loud, messed up warble of a human baby. I've never heard it during the daytime. I don't know where they go and have never seen one. This means they are on the skittish side of contact even compared to foxes and coyotes, which can be seen occasionally.

So I doubt you will ever see the makers of those tracks, unless you roam around at night with an infra-red device, or try to go in their caves.

The main reason I have heard of campers carrying a gun is bears, who have a very curious mentality, not exactly hunting you, but may lead to a scuffle while they are rummaging through your stuff. It is an omnivore. The puma probably isn't interested in anything other than potential prey, or, chasing rivals off a fresh kill. Cats are not connoisseurs.

Finding such a pristine paw print at least suggests the ecosystem is still working somewhat normally, probably less a sign of danger, and more of an elusively neat thing to look for.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

@Bill; @Pam

Just to add, and something I brought up in discord chat, was that rather than carrying a gun and using deadly force, a good alternative might be a small portable air-horn. These can be quite effective at deterring potentially dangerous animals, and in a completely non-lethal way

[mountain_jim]

^ just acquired one of those a couple of weeks ago after our mama bear visits - have a friend who has to use his almost weekly during summer as his home seems to be on a regular bear path, and they walk right down his back deck along the house almost every time.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Mark (Star Mariner) (here)
Rather than carrying a gun and using deadly force, a good alternative might be a small portable air-horn. These can be quite effective at deterring potentially dangerous animals, and in a completely non-lethal way

It's a good idea. I'll definitely get one, but some practice may be needed! Having it deep in one's backpack when there's a sudden encounter might not help much. (One would need a kind of quickdraw holster, but that'd probably be quite easy to rig up )

[RunningDeer]

Posted by shaberon (here)
Around here, wild cats make an unusual nocturnal sound, something like a loud, messed up warble of a human baby. I've never heard it during the daytime.

You can hear Luna make that sound in the first 3 seconds.

Hello, I'm Luna the black leopard (1:40 minutes)

Luna_the_pantera

Luna is a black leopard or a black panther as it is also called. She was born in a traveling zoo, where Luna’s mother has refused to feed her on the seventh day after the birth. The zoo employees did not immediately notice that the kitten was thrown out of the nest, and it has led to unfavorable consequences. I was asked to take care of the kitten, because I already had a similar experience, and I was territorially closest to the zoo. I agreed to take care of her, and then decided to redeem Luna. (the zoo's management planned to sell her, and it was highly likely that Luna would not have received the necessary care and veterinary control that She needed at that time)

Luna has been with me since the eighth day after she was born. This child has been through a lot of trials and still has some health problems, but the trend is quite good, and in a few years all the existing problems should disappear. This is the optimistic attitude of the specialists who are watching us. At the moment, she needs to take some supportive medications, active supplements, follow a diet and proper physical activity. I hope we will stay together with Luna forever.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=NeLSCaNnfCM

Click the "closed caption" for subtitles.

[Mercedes]

Such majestic animals!! Quite a beauty! Life is so worth preserving. But I am a little concerned about when she becomes an adult. She is a predator by nature, her instincts are built into her genetics and ... that kitty is a big big cat. Still love the story and would like for her to be with her family forever.

[RunningDeer]

Do jaguars attack humans?

Panthera Belize Director Bart J. Harmsen reminds us that humans are not part of a jaguar’s diet. Attacks on humans are very rare and usually triggered as a defense mechanism when humans threaten the jaguar by chasing it with dogs or firing at it. Unprovoked attacks have happened very infrequently when jaguars baited to be shown to tourists lose their instinctive fear of humans. Jaguars are naturally shy and will avoid human interactions. They came to the Americas long before the advent of indigenous peoples, so humans are not and have never been on the jaguar’s menu.

What are the threats facing jaguars?  

The species is threatened by habitat loss and fragmentation, conflict with local people due to the real or perceived threat posed to livestock, overhunting of the jaguar’s prey by local people and their perceived threat to humans, despite the fact that humans are never attacked or killed by jaguars, unless by baited jaguars or in hunting situations.

Recent fires have also destroyed a great deal of jaguar habitat in Brazil and Bolivia. Or, between 1990 and 2010, clearing of land for economic development and resource extraction destroyed 25 percent of Guatemala’s natural forest, which could have been jaguar habitat. When jaguar prey is overhunted, it leads to livestock conflict as well, as jaguars are more likely to kill domestic animals if their natural prey is reduced. At our Jofre Velho Ranch in the northern Pantanal of Brazil, our team is working on innovative and effective ways to mitigate the problems posed by jaguar-livestock conflict that show that the coexistence with these large felines is possible.  

From: Jaguar Experts Answer Your Questions

Posted by Mercedes (here)
Such majestic animals!! Quite a beauty! Life is so worth preserving. But I am a little concerned about when she becomes an adult. She is a predator by nature, her instincts are built into her genetics and ... that kitty is a big big cat. Still love the story and would like for her to be with her family forever.

Her caretakers recognize the reality of the situation. Luna is a happy camper living amongst her adoptive family. Luna is coming up on three years old this December if my research is correct.

~ Overall, the lifespan of a black panther is largely dependent on its environment and lifestyle. In the wild, they face many dangers that can shorten their lives. However, in captivity, they can live up to 23 years due to the ideal diet, conditions and care. A panther lives approximately the same time as a leopard (12-17 years), a jaguar (12-15) and also comparable to a common house cat!

From: Life expectancy of a black panther.

Luna’s play ground of trees and field grasses.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=WQBV6rfmv8I

Black Panther Raised By A Lady Made Friendship With A Rottweiler

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=IDFePbrq3i0

[Mari]

Slightly off -topic, but I just had to post this well-known video again, which gives a much-needed insight into the workings of a leopard's mind, courtesy of animal communicator Anna Breytenbach.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=gvwHHMEDdT0

And updated one year ago, the follow-up story of Spirit:

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=xlHcf6r4HNI

[Orph]

Just a brief update on the post above, Spirit, the black leopard, passed this past June, 2023. He was 21 years old.

[Dennis Leahy]

Pam, this is an issue that I have wrestled with. I'm utterly appalled by trophy hunting, as well as "sport" shooting creatures like prairie dogs. I'm sickened by photos of some grinning 'big game hunter' standing over the giraffe they just murdered. How about the helicopter-riding gunmen murdering wolves. Then, there's the practice of murdering millions of sharks to eat one fin, miles-long trawler nets that kill sea mammals and turtles indiscriminately. Millions of gallons of insecticides applied to crops, killing billions of insects and insectivorous animals. Yes, humans are at war with all other animal species on the planet. "They paved paradise and put up a parking lot" mentality. Humans: first; all other life forms; last.

Only humans have invisible boundaries delineating the remaining wild spaces from the human-infested, er, I mean inhabited areas. The New Zealanders killed all the Dodo birds because they could, and I believe that if it was easy or cheap to do so, someone would have already murdered every shark in the oceans and every large (scary to humans) predator on land. They only remain because it ain't easy or cheap to eradicate them all.

I lived on the coast in Southern California for 11 years, and loved being in the ocean. I personally came to the conclusion that by entering the ocean - the sharks' home - I had to relinquish any "rights" to remain unharmed or uneaten. I could applaud technologies such as a shark-repellent substance for wetsuits, but not the idea of "making the ocean safe for humans" by slaughtering all the apex predators. I've had to face this same inner conundrum on land, when camping in the Sierra and Rocky Mountains, or in northern Minnesota - where bears and mountain lions call it home. It's a bit different than my feeling about the ocean, because I am a land animal - the land, including the "wild places", is my home too. But still, I have wrestled with the notion of being attacked by a large predator, (I've seen a couple of bears and one wolf) and I conclude that the predator would be "innocent." I'd consider myself as innocent as well - there doesn't have to be guilt assigned if not due. I've never carried a gun hiking or camping (probably should have been carrying bear spray a few times.)

So, with that background, yes, I did recommend to Bill that he carry a gun when hiking with Mara. My thoughts (unexpressed) were that the gun would be as a protection for a four-legged blind family member, not really Bill so much. If Bill hikes alone, I agree with others that the likelihood of a big cat attacking a human would be extremely low. But, to a big hungry puma, a blind dog walking through the meadow is like a corn-dog on a stick at a State Fair. If we could go a bit Buck Rodgers, I'd want Bill to have a sound canon or an EMP weapon to stun or scare away the attacker. The air horn is a good idea, but if Mara was 30 yards away from Bill, and the cat was really hungry, the sound might temporarily startle but may not stop the attack. Unless Bill has a hidden skillset with handguns that he doesn't brag about, the likelihood of him actually hitting a sprinting puma is about nil. I'm pretty good at shooting stationary targets at a practice range, but I wouldn't bet $5 on me hitting a sprinting puma. I think a gun would therefore be primarily a sound canon.