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Thread: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Brahmanaspati; Bhrgu and Angiras; Purusha; Sadhyas and Dharma; Narayana; female Rishikas

    After the Vedas, there is a type of Dark Age where it is a bit harder to say what was written when, and why there are variations.

    For example, Kena Upanishad is based in Uma "Don't Cry" as virtually the opposite of Rudra, but, this is out of my league. I haven't followed any of the commentary, and have no initiative to use it. That is due to following the same subject as so far discovered.

    After the Vedas, it is also thought there was the development of a social caste system. It seems to be a bit in the Brahmanas, and moreso in Manu Smrti; and this is why Yoga in the guise of Aranyakas and Sravaka traditions (Jain, Buddhist, etc.) seems to work outside it, and, undermine the institution.

    Well, if you come from the view of the Warrior Caste, it is a little different than the Priest.

    In fact, there is the suggestion that Brahma was the original Sanskrit deity, onto whom Vedic Indra was imposed.

    I am not sure that is correct; more broadly, it implies the Upanishadic tradition pre-dates the Vedas. The Upanishads are the ways of Warriors. Necessarily, this is going to be the dominant, continuous league anywhere, priests rather depending on them for any form of stability. Even Bhimbetka clearly shows battles, where it would be hard to specify a priest was present.

    We are sure there is a whirlwind of difficulty streaming off King Santanu of Book Ten, it does not seem that Dattatreya has a Vedic basis, however Parasurama does. Through him converge many non-Vedic deities, i. e. Dattatreya, Renuka, Hingula Mata, and the general understanding he did something nearly genocidal to the Warrior Caste.

    Even if that is really not the best term for it, a somewhat hereditary military uses a kind of person that is not like others. Takes a certain understanding. And, of course, known history is based around kings who deployed thousands of warriors, regardless if they believed in the same Vedic or Hindu deities or whatever, clashes and conquests seem to be pretty normal.

    Here is a reference from D Kosambi ca. 1950s article series:

    Quote ...in the Anukramani citing Parasurama as the author of RV. X. 110. The only Rama mentioned in that Veda (RV. X.93.14) is a king described as asura, which is taken to mean ‘powerful’. The epic hero Rama is far more popular, but is nowhere mentioned in the older Brahmanical literature where his father-in-law, Janaka of Videha, figures so prominently. Whatever the real historical basis of the Rama legend, that hero was clearly a Ksatriya while his protagonist Ravana is a Brahmin who had proved superior in prowess to Indra himself.

    Does Rama replace Indra because he is a more charismatic role model for the same sin?

    Does he replace Vedas by promoting Upanishads?

    These are realistic questions, because we *don't* know an agreeable version of what came after King Santanu, but, there are multiple Yoga deities cascading from Parasurama who are most likely precursors if not confidants of Rama or Ayodhya. Plus, if it is a very ancient tale, then, Ayodhya is symbolic. Chances are, an actual settlement by that name was eventually made in honor of the heritage. I don't think either Ayodhya or Kashi could really claim to be that old, aside from, perhaps, a mainly agricultural development in their general areas. As cities or kingdoms, these are probably derivatives.

    They consider it para-Vedic:

    Quote Upanisads represent a long process of assimilation and adoption of foreign ritual as well as
    philosophy by the indigenous Brahmanas, who could not all have been associated with Ksatriyas from the earliest times; Both the yajna and its philosophy have clearly been acquired from Ksatriyas; for the Pancala oligarch Pravahana Jaivali says explicitly (Ch. 5.3.7, and Br. 6.2.8) that Gautama, who had begged this knowledge of him, would be the very first Brahmin to possess it. This would be incomprehensible if all Brahmins had always been Aryan priests.

    He is using "Br." = Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.

    I just speak of Conventional Yajnawalkya meaning the historic author of the main compendium. But in full he means a lineage:

    Quote Nevertheless, it is again a Ksatriya-like king Ajatasatru of Kasi who
    has to give the philosophical interpretation of Brahma (Br. 2.1, Kausitaki 4) to a Brahmana, the Gargya Balaki. We have referred to the various lines
    of tradition, as at the end of Br. 2, Br. 4, Br. 6, of which the first two are almost identical and contain two Tvastras, Visvarupa Tvas-tra being
    presumably the famous ‘three-headed’ purohita slain by Indra, Rg-veda 10.8.8-9. Yet Br. 6.3.7-12 gives another vamsa which seems distinct from
    the three main lines, namely Uddalaka Aruni to Vajasaneya Yajnavalkya to Madhuka Pairigya to Cula Bhagavitti to Janaki Ayasthuna to Satyakama
    Jabala. It is certain that several lines have been combined, and also clear that a tradition which reports the words of Ajatasatru (whom I am
    compelled to identify with the Magadhan emperor who ruled at the time of the Buddha’s death) cannot have come unchanged through a line of
    teachers that covers as many as 58 consecutive names, mostly older.

    Our simple answer is that there was a historical Ramayana with the same characters but no war.

    Mithila one or two centuries before Buddha.

    Again it is not a difficulty to say something like King Janaka I & II, what we don't want to do is turn II into I and convolute everything. It is possible the Ramayana genealogy is already an effort to do this. The structural mote is again the rarely-mentioned Tvastr is prominent in the background of Yajnawalkya.

    This may tell us less about the date, and more about the school of the Aranyaka or forest or wilderness domain:

    Quote The Atharva Veda is mentioned as such only in Ch. 7.1.2, 7.2.1,
    7.7.1 and Mundaka 1.1.5; in all other cases, it is not a Veda but called by its secondary appellation Atharvangirasa, which becomes significant as,
    in the same context, the Rk-, Yajur- and Sama- are called Vedas explicitly. The interpretation is that the Brahmanic tradition is still being crystallized
    in some parts of the country, ritual coming before philosophy, but both oriented towards assimilation of the Ksatriyas. The fourth Veda has not yet
    been accorded a regular place in the canon.

    Not sure it is a "secondary appellation", because there is a fundamental difference from Bhrgu Atharvan, which has no surviving texts. In other words, Yajnawalkya cleverly merges Tvastr's lineage with that of Angiras.

    He also encounters the fact that Indra is a violator, sinner, transgressor:

    Quote This passage is of the highest interest as an attempt to assimilate an Aryan tribal god who must at one time have actually been a hero and leader
    in battle. In Ch. 8.7 to 8.9 we have Indra from the gods and Viro-cana from the Asuras going to Prajapati to learn the true knowledge of the self. Only
    Indra completes the study while his rival returns with false understanding. On the other hand, this ruthless Indra who brags above about his
    exploits is definitely on the wrong side of the true Brahmanical tradition. In the first place the descendants of Tvastr are mentioned in Br. 2.6 and
    4.6 as in the direct line of tradition (vamsa) from Brahma. Secondly, the slaying of the three-headed Tvastra seems to be a definite historical incident
    quite apart from its mention in Vedic literature.

    In ravaged Mohenjo-Daro seals have been found with three-headed animals, along with the remains
    of a beautifully carved image with three head-sockets—whether meant for three separate heads or three positions of one head. The whole passage
    above runs in the same tone, for throwing ascetics to the wolves was certainly not an act calculated to win Brahmin hearts.

    We know from Puranic
    tradition that a Prahlada was the worshipper of Visnu whereas Indra boasts of having violated treaties with the tribe. These actions of Indra are
    systematically against whatever the ancient Brahmins cherished. Therefore, we need not be surprised when Brahma, the self-existent (svayambhu),
    nevertheless appears in Br. 1.4.6 as a mortal, inferior to the immortal Aryan gods created by him who are his superiors. The later pantheon has not
    yet been accepted; one may reasonably conjecture that the original cult of Brahma was dying out. Br. 1.4.1 admits quite frankly that the Kstrahood
    rules even in heaven—an obvious recognition of the facts visible on earth, and of new cults introduced by Aryan conquerors.

    I am not sure we can say IVC Chimera is Vedic Visvarupa.

    Depends on how much Tvastr lore would have been going around in order for Book Six to be comprehendible.

    My personal guess is that the additional details that can be found in Book Ten were pretty much already in existence before the first Bharadwaj hymn was kept/recorded. It may be that Atharvangiras is a superior recording system, perhaps because made by Tvastr.

    At the same time, it does not contradict the Veda to think of "brahm-" as a verb, which is primarily expanded to Brahmanaspati.

    But no it is not the Puranic trinity with Brahma:

    Quote This is not all; for we see further that the pre-occupation of Patanjali’ s Brahmins is the Veda while that of the Upanisads falls into several layers
    of which the most prominent is the interpretation of Brahma.

    The point would be of less interest were it not for the fact that both Yajnavalkya and Balaki expect substantial gifts from their royal patrons for
    the interpretation of Brahma. The main idea is to gain some sort of a livelihood, and it is generally precarious.

    "Interpreting Brahma" would not be meaningful in the Veda, it would be a sidetrack.

    Again the Upanishad cannot track its history the same way. Beyond the preserved versions, it is like Purana, nobody has anything other than a verbal claim to the possibilities. In general, you could probably lower-case "purana" and equate it to "folk myths, probably pre- or even non-Vedic", and "upanishad" may be similar, within the military. Not that every military chieftain would have automatically done the same thing, the rites and mantras may be different, although the inner yoga principles are similar.

    One basic rule for the concept of civilization is agricultural surplus, which is demonstrated by fermented beverages, which are found in IVC in the old layer of Mehrgarh. Brewing seems to have been universal or i. e. anywhere that surplus is believed to have appeared, you find alcohol at that same age. Here is a Brewers' response to Aswins I.116:

    Quote "O Hero, you gave wisdom to Kaksivan, from the lineage of Pajra, who sang your praises. From the hooves of your mighty steeds you poured out hundreds of jars of beer-surā (flowing) like from a colander.»

    Year after year, the earth gives birth to the stems from which the grains come out and are transformed into beer. The image of the strainer indicates that the surā beer can be filtered. Drilled with about 100 holes, it is a real used utensil (see the kārotara sieve-funnel and the Śatatranā sieve to filter fermented mash or surā-beer in brahmanic tradition).

    The mention of beer at the heart of the metaphor of agricultural abundance shows that the nomadic pastoralists (milk and mead drinkers) and the beer-drinking Indus cereal growers have merged whole sections of their respective mythologies. In a Hymn of Glorification to the Sun together with a ritual of protection, the surā-beer serves as an offering. The word "Poison" refers to it metaphorically.

    " I hang the poison in the sun, a leather sack hanging in the house of the one who has surā; he shall not die, nor shall we die: his way is far off: the one who is riding the bay horses [the sun] has turned you into sweet honey. " (RV I.191.10).

    The surā beer is here mixed with honey. Meadhu, mead, is an Indo-European beverage.

    Keeping honey in a wineskin exposed to the sun to accelerate the spontaneous fermentation of diluted honey is a technique of nomadic peoples. Whoever has surā also has honey/hydromel (madh). But Madh means by extension "joy, pleasure, euphoria, drunkenness", and in a more abstract sense, "enthusiasm, impulse towards". The boundaries are thin and permeable between alcoholic drunkenness and euphoria that opens the mind, between surā and madhu, between surā and soma.

    There we go. If we are thinking the "message" is about everyone's personal experience, everyone is not a priest, warrior, or craftsman, but everyone eats and drinks.

    So does the Brahman Caste:

    Quote The sacrifice Śrauta is part of the important Brahmanic rites. It includes the sacrifices of Soma and the havis-sacrifice. Among the latter, the sacrifice sautrāmani includes the preparation and offering of the beer surā. At the end of the ritual surā is drunk by the priest and the priests. The Satapatha Brāhmana describes the preparation of ingredients and beer in the caraka version of this ritual (V.5.4.1-35) and in its kaukili version (XII.7.1-9.3.16). The explanations of the brewing of the surā beer are complicated by the ritualisation of gestures, the terminologie of the procedure, and by an imitative codification of the sacrifices of the soma.

    In the list of brewing equipment, we find:

    Kārotara = filter vase with hairs of 3 animals: lion, wolf and tiger.

    That is a bit unusual, does not really match Vedic iconography, but it does sound like IVC.

    Quote The deity Surā Devi was born from the foam produced by the churning of the ocean by the devas and the asurās; the beer-surā comes from the foam of the fermentation of rice and barley. The parallel is striking. The addition of milk during this cosmic fermentation does not change the nature of the fermented beverage brewed, an authentic beer.

    Brewing the surā beers belongs to the sphere of daily consumption and celebrations. Only an Adhvaryu can be a brewer (a surākāra) for the sacrifice sautrāmani, but brewing surā beers is a common activity apart from the Vedic rituals and religious pursuits.

    Returning to the Tvastr presence.

    There is something that makes a sort of hierophantic archetype in Grtasamada's Brahmanaspati II.23:

    “Tvaṣṭā engendered you (chief) amongst all beings, (whence) you are the reciter of many a holy hymn: Brahmaṇaspati acknowledges a debt to the performer of a sacred rite; he is the acquitter (of the debt), and the destoyer of the oppressor.”

    viśvebhyo hi tvā bhuvanebhyas pari tvaṣṭājanat sāmnaḥ-sāmnaḥ kaviḥ | sa ṛṇacid ṛṇayā brahmaṇas patir druho hantā maha ṛtasya dhartari ||

    sāmnaḥ sāmnaḥ kaviḥ, the reicter or another of every sāma, sarvasya sāmnaḥ uccārayitā kartāsi; or kavi refers to tvaṣṭā, further explained as the sage who created Brahmaṇaspati by the efficacy of the sāma: sāmnaḥ sāreṇa tvam ajījanat; acknowledges a debt: ṛṇacit stotṛkāmam ṛṇam iva cinoti, he takes the intention of the praiser as if it was a debt, or obligation; acquitter of the debt: ṛṇaya is explained as the discharger or remover of the debt which is of the nature of sin: pāparūpasya ṛṇasya pṛthak kartā

    “When Bṛhaspati, descendant of Aṅgiras, for your glory, Parvata had concealed the herd of kine, you did set them free, and with thine associate, Indra, did send down the ocean of water which had been enveloped by darkness.”

    tava śriye vy ajihīta parvato gavāṃ gotram udasṛjo yad aṅgiraḥ | indreṇa yujā tamasā parīvṛtam bṛhaspate nir apām aubjo arṇavam ||

    Brahmanaspati follows in the bloc of Hymns 24, 25, 26.

    This deity is visibly important, and, an engineered design by the more mystical Tvastr, particularly at the level of Sama.

    But he is certainly not visible in modern terms, less so than Indra. What happened?

    Brahmanaspati is clearly deified across the Veda--and is unknown to Puranas except for:

    Siva Purana says that Shiva created Brahma, the Brahmanaspati, saying it is condensed from the Vedas as narrated by Shiva.

    Sounds like a near contradiction.

    It is fairly easy to find what has been shucked. Brahmanaspati is prevalent in Rg Veda, such as:

    VII.41 in a strand of invocations at dawn

    with Dadhikra and Vishnu in Lingokta VII.44

    Brahmanaspati Indra VII.97

    with Aditi in VI.75

    with Kaksivan, son of Usij and Dirghatamas in I.18

    with Maruts in I.40


    Visvedeva X.65

    Brahmanaspati as Brihaspati 10.67

    Brahmanaspati commented as Aditi in 10.72

    as Tiksna Srna Brihaspati 10.155

    uses Tvastr's axe to shape drinking vessels in Suci 10.53

    We don't see "pair of bull horns", but, we do see Sharp Horn Brhaspati. Just one, the individual pointing device? To be an effective weapon, a horn does not need to be sharp. A buffalo can just pick you up by the ribcage and shake you, a dull horn is going to rip through your skin and scramble your organs in a matter of seconds. Ramming or puncture attacks are not what they really do, upper thrust against your own weight is devastating.

    It is correct that Brahmanaspati is given the epithet "ganapati" one time. Only appearance in the whole book. Whether that constitutes a name or form, I cannot really tell, but it is there.

    I have to question "Upanishadic Brahma", because that is practically backwards, since "brahma" is the word for a priest, or the word spoken by one.

    Moreover, at first, it is plebian, emphatically not an invocation, form of address, or epithet.

    In the Old Books, "brahma" is just a noun, with maybe one exception:


    brahmāṇam brahmavāhasaṃ gīrbhiḥ sakhāyam ṛgmiyam | gāṃ na dohase huve ||

    “I invoke with hymns Indra, our friends, who is Brahma, who is attracted by prayer and entitled to adoration, to milk him as a cow.”

    If you are influenced by that, Brahma becomes a name of Indra, unless it is still lower-case, Indra who is the priest.

    However it is much more prevalent as a generic term. It is a command from Bharadwaj to Indra:

    śrudhi brahma

    "Hear my prayer."

    brahmavāhaḥ = mantrairvahanīya, to be borne or conveyed by prayers

    a standard enemy is:


    hates the priest or the prayer itself.

    a running theme such as in Vamadeva's IV.20:

    brahma navyaṃ

    a new hymn

    Okay. The "noun" is together with one of the only post-Vedic references to Brahmanaspati, which is from Brihadaranyaka Upanishad on Prana:

    Quote eṣa u eva brahmaṇaspatiḥ; vāgvai brahma, tasyā eṣa patiḥ, tasmādu brahmaṇaspatiḥ || 21 ||

    21. This alone is also Brahmaṇaspati (lord of the Yajus.) Speech is indeed Brahman (Yajus), and this is its lord. Therefore this is also Brahmaṇaspati.

    How is it known that the words ‘Bṛhatī’ and ‘Brahman’ mean the Ṛc and the Yajus respectively, and nothing else? Because at the end (of this topic, in the next paragraph) the word ‘speech’ is used as co-ordinate with ‘Sāman,’ ‘Speech is indeed Sāman.’ Similarly in the sentences, ‘Speech is indeed Bṛhatī’ and ‘Speech is indeed Brahman,’ the words ‘Bṛhatī,' and ‘Brahman’, which are co-ordinate with ‘speech’, ought to mean the Ṛc and the Yajus respectively.

    Moreover, unless they are taken in that sense, there will be no difference between the two terms of each sentence. (In the next two paragraphs) ‘Sāman’ and ‘Udgītha’ clearly denote specific objects. Similarly the words ‘Bṛhatī’ and ‘Brahman’ ought to denote specific objects. Otherwise, not conveying any specific object, they would be useless, and if that specific object be mere speech, both sentences would be tautological. And lastly, the words Ṛc, Yajus, Sāman and Udgītha occur in the Vedas in the order here indicated.

    Much as in the comment to RV IV.22:

    Food, hymn, soma and prayhers: an allusion to the fourfold forms of offering worship, Brahmā, Stoma, Soma and Uktha: the first is the cakes steeped in butter-- offerings or obaltions; the second, the praise that is recited aloud; the third, the libation of the Soma; and the fourth, the praise or prayer that is repeated silently or in a lower tone not chanted or sung.

    One might say this already suggests a familiar Yoga sadhana.

    It is not a difficulty to say the Yajur is equivalent to the Saman, because Yajur is not really a type of mantra, but, the combination of verbal and physical activities, meaning it incorporates Saman on top of the Rk.

    Then we start finding things about Brahma like the comment to III.26:

    “Heaven and earth be kind to that sage who is as it were a many-channeled and inexhaustible stream (of knowledge); the parent (of his disciples), the collater of holy texts, rejoicing on the lap of his parents,, whose words are truth.”

    Sayana says:

    That sage: That is, Viśvāmitra himself; in consequence of his discovery that vaiśvānara is para-brahma the supreme spirit; perhaps, this hymn may be ascribed to Brahma.

    and the comment to VI.9:

    dhruvaṃ jyotir nihitaṃ dṛśaye kam mano javiṣṭham patayatsv antaḥ | viśve devāḥ samanasaḥ saketā ekaṃ kratum abhi vi yanti sādhu ||

    “A steady light, swifter than thought, stationed among moving beings to show (the way) to happiness all the gods being of one mind, and of like wisdom, proceed respectfully to the presence of the one (chief) agent (vaiśvānara).”

    Sayana says:

    A steady light: According to the vedāntins, the light is brahma, seated spontaneously in the heart as the means of true knowledge, to which all the senses, together with the mind and consciousness, refer, as to the one cause of creation, or paramātmā, supreme spirit

    And he gives us this brief bio using the name in a way that is unclear:

    Quote Viśvāmitra was a kṣatriya, of royal or military profession, and was also a monarch for some time; he descended from Kuśa or the lunar lineage and was the ancestor of many royal and saintly persons, who, like himself, were called after their common ancestor, Kuśikas, or Kauśikas. By the force of his austerities, he compelled Brahmā to admit into the Brāhmaṇa order. He sought this position to be equated with Vasiṣṭha, which whom he had disputed earlier. The circumstances of his dispute with Vasiṣṭha are detailed in the Rāmāyaṇa; the legend is also told in the Mahābhārata, Vāyu, Viṣṇu and Bhāgavata Purāṇas. Viśvāmitra and Vasiṣṭha had the patronage of hostile princes; but both had friendly relations with the royal family of Ayodhyā, or King Daśaratha and his son, Rāma.

    It may mean that Visvamitra compelled Brahma, or the order, to accept Kausikas.

    Continuing this explanation for I.24:

    “Of whom, or of which divinity of the immortals, shall we invoke the auspicious name? who will give us to the great Aditi that I may again behold my father and my mother.”

    Aditi =earth;

    Quote Adit = earth. Rāmāyaṇa, b.i, ch.61 presents Śunahśepas, son of the Ṛṣis Ṛcika and is sold for a hundred cows by his father to Ambaṛṣa, king of Ayodhyā, as a victim for a human sacrifice. He sees Viśvāmitra, near the lake Puṣkara and learns a prayer when repeated at the stake induces Indra to come and set him free. Aitareya Brāhmaṇa has the legend: the rājā is Hariścandra, who has no sons and worships Varuṇa to obtain a son and promises to sacrifice to him his first-born. He gets a son, named Rohita; when Varuṇa claims this son, the king delays the sacrifice using various pretexts, until Rohita attains adolescence. When Rohita is told of the rājā's commitment to Varuṇa, Rohina refuses to submit himself and moves into the forests. In the forest, Rohita meets a ṛṣi, Ājīgartta who is in great distress. Rohita persuades the ṛṣi to part with his second son, Śunahśepas, to be substituted for Rohita as an offering to Varuṇa. The deal is struck and Śunahśepas is about to be sacrificed. On the advice of Viśvāmitra, an officiating priest, Śunahśepas appeals to the gods and is ultimately liberated. This hymn is uttered by Śunahśepas when bound to the Yūpa, or stake, as the puruṣaḥ-paśuḥ, the man-animal (or victim), as the Bhāgavata terms him: "Of whom" (kasya) may also be rendered; of Brahmā or Prajāpati (also called ka): as ko ha vai nāma prajāpatiḥ (Aitareya Brāhmaṇa 3.21; 7.26)

    My reaction is that is hugely symbolic and the primary moral lesson is to be taken that way.

    Consequently if one is interested in Ramayana, maybe one pursues it in comparison to Vedic Visamitra and Sunhashepa.

    When an event becomes famous, then I suppose we should expect one or more of the names involved to be cycled again later.

    Except there is one that disappears.

    More precisely, Brahmanaspati is found as Brahma in II.1. This is composed by the fusionistic:

    āṅgirasaḥ śaunahotro bhārgavo gṛtsamadaḥ

    Agni is:

    adhvarīyasi brahmā cāsi gṛhapatiś

    three kinds of priests.

    Verse Three:

    tvam agna indro vṛṣabhaḥ satām asi tvaṃ viṣṇur urugāyo namasyaḥ | tvam brahmā rayivid brahmaṇas pate tvaṃ vidhartaḥ sacase puraṃdhyā ||

    “You, Agni, are Indra, the showerer (of bounties) on the good; you are adorable Viṣṇu, the hymned of many; you Brahmaṇaspati, are Brahmā, the possessor of riches; you, the author of various (conditions) are associated with wisdom.”

    Agni is then Varuna, Mitra, Amsa, and:

    aryamā satpatir

    whose (liberality) is enjoyed by all

    You, Agni, are Tvaṣṭā, (the giver) of great wealth to (your) worshipper

    is Rudra, Maruts, Draviṇodās, Savitr, Bhaga, Rbhus, Aditi, Bharati, Ila, Sarasvati (the destroyer of Vrtra), and:

    “The Ādityas have made you, Agni, their mouth; the pure (deities) have made you, Kavi, their tongue; the (gods), the givers of wealth, depdn upon you at sacrifices; they eat the offered oblation through you.”

    I think that is at least nine Adityas specifically named, and, has universalized Agni like opening an umbrella.

    This is another translation of the line:

    Thou, Brahmanaspati, the Brahman finding wealth...

    Because "brahma" has already been used generically for "priest", then, yes, it probably just reflexively means Brahmanaspati is the successful or effective priest. So far it is not splitting out "Brahma" as an additional, distinct deity.

    There is some Vedic expansion on it, such as in X.109:

    te 'vadan prathamā brahmakilbiṣe 'kūpāraḥ salilo mātariśvā | vīḻuharās tapa ugro mayobhūr āpo devīḥ prathamajā ṛtena ||

    “These spoke first about Brahmā's sin, the boundless (sun), the water- god (Varuṇa), the wind-god (Vāyu), the fierce, wide-consuming fire, the source of happiness, (Soma), the divine waters, the first-born sons of the truthful (Brahmā).”

    Sayana says:

    Legend: Juhū is vāc, speech, the wife of Brahmā. Vācaspati, the lord of speech, who is Bṛhaspati, is also said to be the husband of Juhū or Vāc. On some occasion, Bṛhaspati's sin resulted in her losing her husband's affections, and he deserted her. Afterwards the gods consulted together as to the means of expiation of Bṛhaspati's sin, and restorred her to her husband

    "Saunaka" is one of the most heavily-cycled names in the Vaisnavite ethos. In other words, a certain credence of authority into the vein of Mahabharata and Bhagavata Purana. Usually, I find myself working around these sources. The Vedic Rishi Saunaka is the author's father or lineage with Brahmanaspati as the potential Ganapati in II.23.1:

    gaṇānāṃ tvā gaṇapatiṃ havāmahe kaviṃ kavīnām upamaśravastamam | jyeṣṭharājam brahmaṇām brahmaṇas pata ā naḥ śṛṇvann ūtibhiḥ sīda sādanam ||

    “We invoke the Brahmaṇaspati, chief leader of the (heavenly) bands; a sage of sage; abounding beyond measure in (every kind of) food; best lord of prayer; hearing our invocations, come with your protections, and sit down in the chamber of sacrifice.”

    It doesn't quite go "We invoke Ganapati who is Brahma", but, that is exactly what you will get in the Upanishad or any Ganapati Purana.

    If you formulate some kind of scheme to show how this arises from the foregoing, maybe we could follow it. If you say "It says so in the Vedas", everyone will mutely agree with you. I don't see anything about Rudra here. Next attempted translation of it:

    WE call thee, Lord and Leader of the heavenly hosts, the wise among the wise, the famousest of all,
    The King supreme of prayers, O Brahmanaspati: hear us with help; sit down in place of sacrifice.

    using the vocabulary:



    For Tvastar, he who knows each sacred song, brought thee to life, preeminent o' er all the things that be.

    Then Brahmanaspati operates Rna.

    Just from experience, I personally can see this in 1400s Tibetan exegesis, i. e. the Lhas. The simpler format adds, so to speak, a category, Pitrs, who receive offerings as well as Devas. Then you can find a system of Five Rnas, and as far as I can tell it is the same thing Tibetans are doing in the advanced version of Wind Horse. We have damaged, troubled, and abused various kingdoms of nature, so we try to restore a balance. However it has the dual meaning of also being internal, i. e. one's mind and life force consist of these natural kingdoms. That is why this is Yoga and not superstition.

    This sounds practically backwards for the author of most of the hymns of [Ṛg-veda ii]:

    Gṛtsamada (गृत्समद):—Son of Suhotra (son of Kṣatravṛddha). He had a son whom he called Śunaka. (see Bhāgavata Purāṇa 9.17.1-3)

    not surprising:

    There is the following story about him in Gaṇeśa Purāṇa...Gṛtsamada went and did penance to propitiate Gaṇapati and got Brāhmaṇya.

    Frequently we see "Brahmanaspati" parallel to "Brhaspati" which would seem to be the next step in pursuit of investigation.

    Along with calling Tvastr a form of Agni, such deities are typically placed in the lineage of:

    Āṅgirasa (आङ्गिरस).—a. (-sī f.) Descended from or referring to Aṅgiras.

    -saḥ 1 Name of Bṛhaspati, son of Aṅgiras;

    4) the soul;

    4) especially Name of Bṛhaspati, [Ṛg-veda; Atharva-veda] etc.

    5) the planet Bṛhaspati id est. Jupiter

    and it has been said to be authoritative, or, to have pushed out some other method of ritual.

    Now, of course, at a certain level, Bhrgu Gotra is indispensible because:

    Śukra (शुक्र).—(ŚUKRĀCĀRYA)

    The planet Venus or its regent, the son of Bhrigu, and preceptor of the Daityas or Titans.

    8) clear or pure Soma, [Ṛg-veda]

    the son of the great sage Bhrigu and Ushana, daughter of Hirana-Kashipu. He went to the hermitage of Angirasa to learn the scriptures. Angirasa's son Brihaspati was a fellow student of his. Appalled by the favoritism shown by Angirasa towards his son, Shukra left his guru and became the disciple of the sage Gautama instead.

    Śukra achieved the knowledge of Saṃjīvanī by worshipping Mahādeva and by the grace of the Lord he was famous as Yogācārya.

    Śukra has another name, Kāvya. Kāvya means the son of Kavi. Some authorities say that Kavi was Bhṛgu’s son, while others think that Kavi was Bhṛgu himself. Śukra’s mother is referred to as "Kāvyamātā" in many places.

    Kavya could perhaps just be called the next, non-Vedic genre, i. e. Ramayana, especially since Valmiki is called Adi Kavya.

    In the above you rapidly get the sense of Solar + Soma.

    Evidently Bhrgu and his Gotra were Atharvana like the Angirases, and then there was some type of internal dispute and they moved westwards. This caused some amount of actual conflict, and, their remnants were defrayed into Zoroastrianism.

    This most likely concerns the "Iranian problem" that seems to have occurred *within* the Veda, particularly Book Two.

    Therefor, retaining or re-admitting some Bhargavas, is to maintain a type of mixture that seems to be by design.

    Within the Veda as well, we are trying to show the development of language itself.

    Kavi and Sama are twin attributes of Tvastr.

    Rik and Saman are Brhaspati and Brahmanaspati. They are somewhat identical.

    The Veda's time frame is such that it must approximate the Age of Aries, which, may have been a reason for associating Tvastr--Spica with marking the year. The opposing Aswini Nakshatra has thirteen degrees of equinoctical drift to present itself as an ideal "first sign". Slightly less than half an "age", it must have been valid for ~800 years or so.

    In Jaiminiya Brahmana's Tivrasoma, Tvastr is even behind Indra sneezing.

    He persistently shows up, at least prior to the Puranas, but then is described as being of multiple origins or Gotras.

    From Nakshatra Mythology:

    Quote As per the Ṛgveda, Tvastar, also known as Rathakāra, belongs to the clan of the Bhṛgus. Similarly, as mentioned in the epic Mahabharata, Tvastar or the Rathakāra is Śukrācārya's son, Śukrācārya (the mentor of the asuras) is Bhṛgu's grandson and Vāruṇibhṛgu's son. He is the father of Saranyu, who twice bears twins to Vivasvat (RV 8.26.21), including Yama and Yami, also identified as the first humans. Tvastar is a solar deity in the Mahabharata and the Harivaṃśa. He is mentioned as the son of Kāśyapa and Aditi and is said to have made the three worlds with pieces of the Surya.

    Voice of Dharma discovers Tvastr in Vedic Geography as to why the archaic Bhrgus seem a bit distant:

    Quote 1. The actual Soma-growing areas were distant and unknown to the Vedic Aryans in the early parts of the Rigveda, and became known to them only later after they expanded westwards.

    2. The Soma plant and its ritual were not originally known to the Vedic Aryans and their priests, but were introduced to them in very early times by priests from the Soma-growing areas.

    3. The expansion of the Vedic Aryans (and, by a chain of events, the dispersion of the Indo-Europeans, as we shall see in later chapters) into the west and northwest was a direct consequence of their quest for Soma.

    The detailed evidence is as follows:

    1. Soma is regarded as growing in distant areas: this area is so distant that it is constantly identified with the heavens (IV.26.6; 27.3, 4; VIII.100.8; IX.63.27; 66.30; 77.2; .86.24, etc.)

    The only specific thing known about the place of origin of Soma is that it grows on mountains (I.93.6; III.48.2; V.43.4; 85.2; IX.18.1; 62.4; 85.10; 95.4; 98.9, etc.). Nothing more specific is mentioned in the Family MaNDalas or the early upa-maNDalas of MaNDala I.

    The area of Soma is clearly not part of the Vedic area (nor is there even the slightest hint anywhere in the Rigveda that it ever was): it is constantly referred to as being far away (IV.26.6; IX.68.6; X.11.4; 144.4). This area is also known as the "dwelling of TvaSTR" (IV.18.3); and this is what the scholars have to say about TvaSTR: �TvaSTR is one of the obscurest members of the Vedic pantheon.

    citing fifteen hymns for what we would call Syena--Hawk:

    Quote That this place of origin is alien to the Vedic people is clear from the fact that this eagle is reported to have to hurry (IV.26.5) to escape the guardians of Soma, who are described as attacking the eagle (IV.27.3) to prevent it from taking the Soma away.

    TvaSTR is especially the guardian on Soma, which is called the mead of TvaSTR (I.117.22) and Indra is described as conquering TvaSTR in order to obtain the Soma.

    In his footnote to 1.43.8, Griffith refers to "the people of the hills who interfere with the gathering of the Soma plant which is to be sought there".

    The Family MaNDalas are generally ignorant about the exact details of the Soma-growing areas. Whatever specific information is there is in the later MaNDalas.

    I am not sure they have considered Vanaspati or Soma in "all plants".

    For "eagle", Rg Veda has possibly:


    I,164 "birds" or X.149 "Savitr's Eagle".

    Derived from garut "a wing", which, in a backwards comment since "garuda" is a later spelling:

    Garuda is also called as Garutman (गरुत्मन्) which means the stratosphere which surrounds the earth: When the Lord is identified as Sūrya Nārāyaṇa, then Garuda becomes the stratosphere which conveys and modifies the rays of the sun to the earth and thus prevents the destruction of life by the intensity of the heat.

    They trace this geographical foray through Parasurama as a Bhargava:

    Quote ...the names of ancient preparers of Soma; Vivasvat and Trita Aptya

    Both Vivasvat and Yama Vaivasvata are identified in the Rigveda as BhRgus (see the discussion on the YAmAyana group of RSis in our chapter on the composers of the Rigveda); and Manu Vaivasvata is identified in the AnukramaNIs of VIII.29 with KaSyapa.

    Trita Aptya is not clearly identified with any family in the Rigveda, but it is significant that he is described by the GRtsamadas (Kevala BhRgus) in II.11-19 as belonging to "our party".

    a. The word Soma, which occurs thousands of times in the hymns of the Rigveda, is found in the name of only one composer RSi: SomAhuti BhArgava.

    b. The word PavamAna, which occurs more than a hundred times in the Soma PavamAna MaNDala, is found only once outside MaNDala IX: in VIII.101.14 composed by Jamadagni BhArgava.

    That was not the best way of saying the author of VIII.29 is:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): manurvaivasvataḥ kaśyapo vā mārīcaḥ

    and what he has to say:

    “One (Soma) brown of hue, all-pervading, leader of the nights, ever young, decorates (himself) with golden ornament.”

    What is happening is he keeps talking to "Eka", "One", as if riddles that Sayana or someone has inserted answers into the line. No translator wants to trifle with where the second "One" is with the Devas:


    The third "One" implies Tvastr because of a metal weapon or tool:

    vāśīm āyasīm

    So there are a handful of verses alluding to the pantheon without using their names, but making recognizable use of Pusan and Trivikrama Vishnu. It makes sense once you realize he is auto-completing, until the end when we might question:

    “Some (the Atris) when worshipping, call to mind the great Sāman, wherewith they light up the suṇ”

    They say the motive ("quest for Soma") is cued in III.33.5:

    ramadhvam me vacase somyāya ṛtāvarīr upa muhūrtam evaiḥ | pra sindhum acchā bṛhatī manīṣāvasyur ahve kuśikasya sūnuḥ ||

    “Viśvāmitra speaks: Rivers, charged with water, rest a moment from your course at my request, who go to gather the Soma; I, the son of Kuśika, desirous of protection, address with earnest prayer especially the river before me.”

    At my request: me vacase somyāya = to my speech importing the soma, i.e. the object of my address is, that having crossed over, I may go to gather the soma; cf. Nirukta 2.25; the river before me: that is, the śutudri

    That was the Red Sea moment.

    And we may combine this with the essence of Sama, which is Gandharva Veda:

    Quote The only place-name from Afghanistan that we find in the Rigveda is �GandhArI�, and this name occurs only once in the whole of the Rigveda: in the general and late upa-maNDalas of MaNDala I (I.126.7).

    But, the name is also found indirectly in the name of a divine class of beings associated with GandhAra, the gandharvas, who are referred to in the following verses:

    I.22.14; 163.2;
    VIII.1.11; 77.5;
    IX.83.4; 85.12; 86.36; 113.3;
    X.10.4; 11.2; 85.40, 41; 123.4, 7; 136.6; 139.4, 6; 177.2.

    As we can see, the gandharvas are referred to in 20 verses in 16 hymns, and all except one of these references are in the very latest parts of the Rigveda: MaNDalas VIII, IX and X, and the general and late upa-maNDalas of MaNDala I.

    The one reference in an early MaNDala (III.38.6) is not even an exception which proves the general rule, it is in itself strong corroboration of the late provenance of the gandharvas in the Rigveda: III.38 is one of the six hymns (III.21, 30, 34, 36, 38-39) which are specifically named in the Aitareya BrAhmaNa (VI.18) as being late interpolations into MaNDala III. As we saw in an earlier chapter, these hymns have been incorporated into MaNDala III in the eight-MaNDala stage of the Rigveda, and are contemporaneous with the hymns in MaNDala VIII.

    Despite the obscurity, Tvastr is of course Masonic and behind the art of Vimana:

    Quote In the ‘Manasara,’ II. 2-35, it is said that the four progenitors and prototypes of the four divisions of architects are born from the four faces of Visvakarman. They are Visvakarman, Maya, Tvastr, and Manu. Their descendants are the Sthapati, the master builder; the Sutragrahin or Sutradhara who hold the measuring rod or line, the surveyor or draftsman; the Vardhaki, the builder and painter (from vrdhi, to make grow) and the Taksaka, the carpenter. It is derived from His activity whose path ‘measures’ the wide heaven (AV. IV. 2.3.).

    Vimana is one's Heavenly Vehicle in the sense of how you exist in Swarga, composed primarily of Merit.

    Microcosm to macrocosm, it is also the temple structures and their stellar alignments.

    At a ratio of about 88 : 3, in Rg Veda, "Tvastra" has no "r", and therefor appears a simple etymology:

    Tvaṣṭa (त्वष्ट).—p. p. Made thin, pared, peeled &c.

    Pared, made thin. E. tvakṣ to make thin, affix kta.

    tvaṣṭa (त्वष्ट).—a S Pared, planed, thinned.

    Tvaṣṭa (ತ್ವಷ್ಟ):—[adjective] trimmed and smoothened with or as with an adze (said of wood).

    It makes sense, symbolicly of course by shearing 1/8 of Surya's rays (sometimes represented by a missing face/head).

    If you focus this spelling in Brahmanda Purana:

    Tvaṣṭā (त्वष्टा).—One of the four sons of Śukra;1 married Yaśodharā—Vairocinī, daughter of Virocana; father of Triśira, Viśvarūpa and Viśvakarma;2 Prahrādī, another wife; Samjñā, a daughter of his, was given in marriage to the Sun God;3 an Āditya in the month of Kārttika having 8000 rays; with the Śiśira Sun;4 reduced the Sun's tejas;5 made Viṣṇu's discus;6

    1) Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa III. 1. 78, 86; Vāyu-purāṇa 65. 77, 85; Viṣṇu-purāṇa I. 15. 121.
    2) Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa III. 14. 6; 59. 17.
    3) Ib. II. 24. 34, 39.
    4) Ib. II. 23. 20.
    5) Ib. III. 59. 44 and 65.
    6) Ib. III. 59. 71, 82.

    2c) The son of Bhauvana and Dūṣaṇā. His queen was Virocanā, and their son Virajā.*

    * Bhāgavata-purāṇa V. 15. 15. Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa II. 14. 70. Vāyu-purāṇa 33. 59.

    So in that last case, it is likely to be talking about actual people.

    "Viraj" has to do with cycles of mental then physical creation, which I would argue is the main subject of Purusha Sukta X.90:

    From him Viraj was born; again Purusha from Viraj was born.

    virāj, the aggregate of all living beings, spirit embodied in the egg of Brahmā

    Purusha's planes of existence being:

    Nirguna Brahman, Isvara, Hiranya Garbha and Viraj.

    Hiranyagarbha is the subtle body, viraj is material, which makes sense the purusha is subsequently re-born through, and then burned by the devas in Purusha Sukta Verse Seven, summarized at the end:

    By sacrifice the gods worshipped (him who is also) the sacrifice; those were the first duties. Those great ones became partakers of the heaven where the ancient deities the Sādhyas abide.

    sādhyāḥ santi devāḥ ||

    Apava (who sports in the waters), formed two beings from his body, a male, Viraj, and a female, Shatarupa (the hundred-formed). After creating Shatarupa, Brahma lusted for her. “How beautiful you are,” he said to his daughter.

    Satarupa being an equivalent term for female Viraja.

    The Sadhya class is not a Puranic invention, although their specific application may be.

    The closest thing to "Brahma" in the hymn is the priest transformed from the mouth of Purusha.

    In the hymn, Purusha is sacrificed by a team of Devas, Sadhyas, and Rishis, and it is not until after that in Verse Eight:

    From that great general sacrifice the dripping fat was gathered up....

    “From that victim, in whom the universal oblation was offered, the mixture of curds and butter was produced, (then) he made those animals over whom Vāyu presides, those that are wild, and those that are tame.”

    Then the Vedas, then animals such as goats and sheep:


    Only in Verse Twelve does it reach the humans, "four kinds of professions", which are among the major difficulties with the nationalistic or fundamentalist views.

    The hymn says more about what the Sadhyas dwell in, which is what the successful sacrificer attains, a rather typical Sanskrit construction of the forbidden "double negative":

    Nāka (नाक).—m.

    (-kaḥ) Heaven, paradise, æther. sky, atmosphere. E. na not with aka derived from ka happiness, and the privative a prefixed misery; in which there is no unhappiness. na kam akam duḥkham tat nāsti yatra .

    na + 2 -aka, ‘where there is no pain’

    vault of heaven (with or [scilicet] divas), firmament, sky (generally conceived as threefold cf. tri-diva, tri-nāka, and, [Atharva-veda xix, 27, 4]

    Happy, painless; celestial vault, heaven, sky (±divas); adj. painless, sorrowless.

    The line with Naka and Sadhya is quoted one way or the other in I.164.50 by:

    dīrghatamā aucathyaḥ

    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): sādhyāḥ

    which makes it unique, their purpose or duty being:


    They qualify as the designants of that line, following the previous:

    “Sarasvatī, that retiring breast, which is the source of delight, with which you bestow all good things, which is the container of wealth, the distributor of riches, the giver of good (fortune); that do you lay open at this season for our nourishment.”

    Sadhya Mantra:

    yajñena yajñam ayajanta devās tāni dharmāṇi prathamāny āsan | te ha nākam mahimānaḥ sacanta yatra pūrve sādhyāḥ santi devāḥ ||

    “The gods sacrifice with sacrifice, for such are their first duties; those mighty ones assemble in heaven, where the divinities who are to be propitiated (by sacred rites) abide.”


    These Mighty Ones attained the height of heaven, there where the Sadhyas, Gods of old, are dwelling.
    Uniform, with the passing days, this water mounts and falls again.

    Sayana says:

    sādhyāḥ = karma-devaḥ, divinities presiding over or giving effect to religious acts, yajñādi sādhanavantaḥ; or, the term may mean those who have obtained the portion, or the condition of gods, by the former worship of Agni, or the sādhyās = ādityas, or the aṅgirasas, or deities presiding over the metres...

    He could have said, "such as the important Dharma Deva...", although the Veda does not specifically name any Sadhyas, again we would think something must have been said about them in order for the name to have any significance. To "karma devas", the standard Vedic term appears to be "Visvedevas", which, in the Purana, are simply sons of Dharma by a different woman.

    The "dharmani" phrase has been cycled from Verse Forty-three:

    ukṣā́ṇam pṛ́šnim apacanta vīrā́s tā́ni dhármāṇi prathamā́ny āsan

    The Mighty Men have dressed the spotted bullock. These were the customs in the days aforetime


    “I beheld near (me) the smoke of burning cow-dung; and by that tall-pervading mean (effect, discovered the cause (fire); the priests have the Soma ox, for such are their first duties.”

    Sayana says:

    The Soma ox: ukṣāṇam pṛśnim apacanta: pṛśni = Soma;

    Ukṣāṇam = the shedder or bestower of the reward of the sacrifice

    We found that Uksa is like an upgrade, so is Prsni, in yogic symbolism.

    This is one of the longest ones I have looked into. The hymn overall includes:

    Then the Calf lowed, and looked upon the Mother, the Cow who wears all shapes in three directions.
    Bearing three Mothers and three Fathers, single he stood erect: they never make him weary.

    There is some symbolism of Twelve with the Sun, and:

    The son who is a sage hath comprehended: who knows this rightly is his father's father.

    This altar is the earth's extremest limit; this sacrifice of ours is the world's centre.
    The Stallion's seed prolific is the Soma; this Brahman highest heaven where Speech abideth.

    ayáṃ sómo vṛ́ṣṇo ášvasya réto brahmā́yáṃ vācáḥ paramáṃ vyo |ma

    He specifically says Parama Vyoma, which is extraordinarily relevant to Yogacara exegesis. It could be called "infinite void" but "parama" has the connotation "every link in the chain". Such as to say Paramatma resides in all living beings. In this case, you get the sense that the "links" are going to be something like heaven, space, void, infinite void. Here, it means the Speaker and the Speech reside in Absolute Void.

    Cf. Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 6.4 mating mantra:

    He embraces her saying, ‘I am the vital force, and you are speech; you are speech, and I am the vital force; I am Sāman, and you are Ṛc; I am heaven, and you are the earth.

    Further along in the hymn:

    Three kept in close concealment cause no motion; of speech, men speak only the fourth division.
    They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuna, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutman.

    To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Matarisvan.
    Dark the descent: the birds are golden-coloured; up to the heaven they fly robed in the waters.

    So Purusha Sukta is more about Viraj and the Sadhyas, who are reflected identically in another Book.

    Otherwise, "sadhya" is only in a couple of comments, such as for X.130 on Human Sacrifice by, perhaps, an eminent authority:

    yajñaḥ prājāpatyaḥ

    “The sacrifice which is extended on every side by the threads (of created things) spread out by the worship of the Devas for a hundred and one (years), these Pitrs, who have preceded us, weave it, weaving forwards, weaving backwards, they worship (Prajāpati) when (the world) is woven.”

    Purusha is:


    “The first man spreads out this (web), the first man rolls it up, he spread it above in this heaven; these his rays have sat down on the seat (of sacrifice), they have made the prayers serve as shuttles for weaving.”

    There are questions about authority and cause and the like, to which Sayana says:

    When the Sādhyas, assembled as agents of creation, offered sacrifice to Prajāpati, the question was: how should this Yajña be prepared?

    In other words, they are not named, but are considered by him the realm of necessary information.

    The answer is first given as Gayatri and other meters, and then Sayana says:

    Two of the other questions- those relating to the butter (ājya)and the enclosure (paridhi)-- have been answered, in the Puruṣa sūkta, 10.90; cf. Taittirīya Brāhmaṇa 3.12.9]. beholding them with the eye of the mind, I glorify those who of old celebrated this sacrifice.”

    Here again, Human Sacrifice reflects Purusha Sukta.

    The Sages also descend or originate from Pitrs:

    pitaro naḥ purāṇe

    manasā cakṣasā

    So by this knowledge men were raised to Rsis, when ancient sacrifice sprang up, our Fathers.
    With the mind's eye I think that I behold them who first performed this sacrificial worship.

    ṛṣayaḥ sapta daivyāḥ

    They who were versed in ritual and metre, in hymns and rules, were the Seven Godlike Rsis.
    Viewing the path of those of old, the sages have taken up the reins like chariot-drivers.

    And he uses it as an ordinary word describing different formats of recital in I.8:


    ṛk-sādhyam śastram, the unsung praise to be accomplished by the ṛcā.


    sāmasādhyam stotram, praise to be accomplished by the Sāmaveda

    śastra = hymn recited (audibly, or inaudibly)

    At least in our terminology, "accomplishment" is an "if" because it is not just "the performance of".

    From what is in the Puranas, I would say yes, accomplishment derives from Dharma and perhaps several if not most of the others. All I really know is the Veda says the Sadhyas are successful Dharmins. The Century at the beginning of this hymn must be that of Agni Vaisvanara. We might think of it in terms of, "he did it in the mental creation", which makes it our turn to restore and "incarnate the word". Unlike the Human Sacrifice, who gets away, Agni Vaisvanara died. That doesn't seem to matter much to him, personally, it interrupts the intended chain of offerings and mantras he was doing.

    Devi Bhagavata Purana invokes Sadhyas and Jaganath in the same area.

    It also describes during Indra's dethronement Nahusa takes over heaven and raises problems with Brhaspati.

    The following uses "Brahma" as equivalent to "Purusha". Near its beginning, Brahmanda Purana describes spiritual descent in terms of Dharma First:

    The Sādhyas, Viśvedevas and Vasus are remembered as the sons of Dharma.

    Twelve Sādhyas were born as the sons of Sādhyā and Dharma. Those conversant with the Devas affirm that they are superior to other Devas.

    His other offspring include:

    The ten famous Viśvedevas were born of Viśvā (i.e. the wife of Dharma). Including Purūravas.

    The Vasus were the sons of Vasu. They are remembered as the younger brothers of the Sādhyas.

    Marutvants were born of Marutvatī.

    These Muhūrtas are the different periods of time. They are remembered as Devatās.

    Ahirbudhnya of the Night somehow drags in the Adityas, and they appear as nighttime deities.

    All the objects on the Earth were born of Arundhatī. This is the scholarly permanent creation of Dharma. It has been thus narrated.

    At that point some grievous violation has been committed because Arundhati is chaste.

    Metaphysically she has spawned the class Compound Objects (Bhautika), i. e. the recombinations of Elements, their Mothers.

    There are not many other branches of progeny parallel to that of Dharma:

    Dakṣa gave twenty-eight (? twenty-seven) of his daughters (in marriage) to Soma (Moon).


    Fourteen other girls of great nobility and fortune, Kaśyapa accepted as his wives.

    Eleven Rudras were born of Surabhi as sons of Kaśyapa.

    Twelve Adityas including:

    Viṣṇu was born of Aditi (as the son) of Kaśyapa son of Marīci.

    who is particularly special because:

    He is born at the outset on account of the part of that body of Brahmā which has a predominance of Sattva Guṇa and which is called Pauruṣī. He was mentally born of Ākūti during Svāyambhuva Manvantara.

    He reincarnates in the other Manvantaras until:

    118. By means of three steps, Lord Viṣṇu incarnated as Trivikrama, conquered all these (three worlds) and handed them over to Indra accompanied by all the Devas.

    It is from Viṣṇu that this entire universe is born and it gets merged in him again. It is from Viṣṇu’s part that all the immortal ones, the lords of the three worlds are born. They flourish in brilliance, intellect, learning and strength. Understand that whatever is endowed with prosperity, whatever being is glorious and powerful, is born of a part of the splendour of Viṣṇu.

    For Eight Deva classes:

    The Ādityas, Maruts and Rudras should be known as the sons of Kaśyapa. The three sets (of gods) viz. Sādhyas, Viśvedevas and Vasus are the sons of Dharma. The Bhṛgus are the sons of Bhṛgu and the Devas (called) Aṅgiras are the sons of Aṅgiras.


    4. He gave the overlordship of all the Aṅgiras to Bṛhaspati. He anointed Kāvya (i.e. Śukra) as the ruler over the kingdom of Bhṛgus.

    5. Then he made Viṣṇu, the leader of the Ādityas, Pāvaka (fire-god) as the leader of Vasus, Dakṣa chief of the Prajāpatis and Vāsava (Indra), as the head of Maruts.

    6. He made Prahlāda, the delighter of Diti, the king of Daityas, Nārāyaṇa, of the Sādhyas and the bull-bannered god as the king of Rudras.

    Adityas were Sadhyas in the previous Manvantara. Twelve Suns with Five Feet in the descent of Agni, also has Planets, Time, and Rays.

    As we saw in X.130, Devas were worshipped for a hundred years when only Pitrs existed. In this "mental time", it was Agni Vaisvanara being the one who was doing the honors. He died, and was blasted or shattered to pieces in our world, so, i. e. Samsya loved sixteen rivers up to at least Sita in the Tarim Basin.

    So when Vishnu is sort of awkwardly thrown in as both something solar and as the "creator", it is different because it is not in the material sense, but as consciousness. The Trivikrama is any and all consciousness which has arisen in the three worlds, and his overall hypostasis must have something to do with Dharma, which is not Rta, because it has more to do with interacting with other fields of consciousness.

    Vishnu is mostly Noumenal, and so Agni Vaisvanara is one's own type of intercessory priest who recovers and repairs "parts" of Agni to make it whole, at the same time awakening and developing the Dharmic intent of Vishnu consciousness.

    If successful, one has or joins Rudra.

    That is how a type of Trinity is meaningful and fairly simple. It does not exactly start with Brahma or Purusha, it definitely has Vishnu in the middle, and it ends with Rudra rather than Shiva. Who the "first person" should be is rather difficult to determine, they may all be metaphorical and allusive. Hiranyagarbha is not the worst idea, although it does not convey the sense of embodied mantra; the process is descending on levels that require new operatives such as Prajapati and Tvastr. It is correct that a Sage's name connects Manu Vaivasvata and Kasyapa, which, obviously, does not make him, personally, the "first person", that would be absurd.

    Buddhism definitely responds to the Tri Murti usually showing the rarefied third person, Rudra Mahesvara:

    When one has purified the tenth level, one acquires immense and infinite dhāraṇis and upāyas, one realizes all the pratisaṃvids and all the vaśitas, one becomes Maheśvaradevaputra, one is also the support of all the universes.

    I did not know this apparently is not Hindu, in Buddhism we use Brahmavihara:

    four limitless minds (apramānacitta)

    “four practices”

    'sublime' or 'divine abodes'

    where again the "brahma" is not really quite a personal name. It could be generic for "the practitioner" or "use of mantra" with the intent of "sadhya" or that these are benefits that can be accomplished. These are the necessary components of a divinized state of being.

    The Sadhya class has minimal literary depictions; they appear again while hooking to Vedic characters in the section on Pitrs:

    I shall describe the sets (of Pitṛs) having Prabhā (lustre) as their forms, O excellent Brāhmaṇa (?)

    85. Those Kāvyas, the sons of Agni Kavi (?), are the Pitṛs born of Svadhā. They are the Pitṛs in the celestial worlds shining with the luminary bodies. They have great brilliance.

    86. In holy rites causing the development and flourishing progress and fulfilment of all desires the Brāhmaṇas worship them. Their mental daughter is well known as Yogotpatti.

    87. She was given in marriage to Śukra by Sanatkumāra. She became well renowned as Ekaśṛṅgā. She caused the increase in the fame and renown of the Bhṛgus.

    88-89. Those worlds which have rays within are stationed in the heaven enveloping everything.

    These are the sons of Aṅgiras formerly nurtured and developed by the Sādhyas. Those Pitṛs are declared as Upahūtas. They shine in the heaven; seven groups of Kṣatriyas who seek benefit, worship them.

    90. Their mental daughter is well known by the name Yaśodā. She is considered as the queen mother of Khaṭvāṅga the noble-souled king.

    The supposedly Upanishadic Warriors have just been grouped with Angiras and the Sadhyas.

    Now it will take a swipe at Rg Veda and we want to be careful about whether this degrades everything:

    93-94. (?) The Pitṛs named Ājyapās are the sons born of Pulaha who was born of Kardama, the Prajāpati. They reside in those worlds which can go wherever one desires. They move about in the sky in various forms and shapes. The groups of Vaiśyas who seek benefit worship these Pitṛs in Śrāddha.

    95. Their mental daughter is well known by the name Virajā. She was the chaste wife of Nahuṣa and the mother of Yayāti.

    96. The Pitṛs named Sukālas are the sons of the noble-souled Vasiṣṭha, son of Hiraṇyagarbha (Brahmā). The Śūdras worship them.

    97. Those worlds where they stay in the heaven are Mānasa by name. Their mental daughter is Narmadā, the most excellent river.

    98. She sanctifies the living beings as she proceeds along the Dakṣiṇāpatha (southern tract and territory). She was the wife of Purukutsa and the mother of Trasaddasyu.

    99. It is after accepting these that Manu the lord of the Manvantara initiates the Śrāddha rites everywhere.

    It's of course a little weird, hard to tell who is intended to be human. Maybe weirder to think of Arya kings as "wedded" to the southern Narmada River.

    Rudra is reborn in each of these Manvantaras, and Agni and the Pitrs are the only thing that stays the same.

    Individuals change names, classes change jobs, for example Sadhyas are now Adityas, everything else is a flux besides Agni and Pitrs.

    So those are two branches that use his two wives, Svaha and Svadha, for the ending of mantras. They are his power or, i. e. Svaha carries mantras to Devas, Svadha to the Pitrs, Sraddha Rite, which upon examination is about Time rather than ancestors. Agni shows manifested units of time, the day, year, etc., whereas Pitrs are much like Father Time, duration in the abstract.

    Most streams of Purana have dissipated all this, such as:

    Sādhya (साध्य) refers to a group of deities that was once worshipped in ancient Kashmir (Kaśmīra) according to the Nīlamatapurāṇa.—Various groups of the deities like Ādityas, Vasus, Sādhyas, Viśvedevas and Maruts have their place in the pantheon of the Nīlamata but nothing significant is said about them.

    Or they may be found shuffled in to Shiva Ganas that have nothing to do with this.

    Where discussed, they may include:


    Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa II. 24. 27; 38. 3.

    and importantly:

    Viṣṇu, Nārāyaṇa, lying in sleep in the vast mass of water.*

    * Vāyu-purāṇa 23. 108.

    live in Bhuvarloka; Nārāyaṇa, their overlord

    in the [Śatapatha-brāhmaṇa] their world is said to be above the sphere of the gods; according to Yāska [Nirukta, by Yāska xii, 41] their locality is the Bhuvarloka or middle region between the earth and sun;

    in the later mythology they seem to be superseded by the Siddhas

    The easily-copied rosters of Sadhyas are:

    Manas, Mantṛ, Prāṇa, Nara, Pāna, Vinirbhaya, Naya, Daṃśa, Nārāyaṇa, Vṛṣa, Prabhu

    Mana, Anumanta, Prāṇa, Nara, Apāna, Vīryavān, Vīti, Naya, Haya, Haṃsa, Nārāyaṇa, Vibhu, and Prabhu

    The latter, from Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, is in the context that they take birth at will, consciously. The same group of entities changes names and kingdoms; the twelve souls have continuity. And so they remember that they once were, on the ideal or ideational plane:

    Prāṇa, Apāna, Udāna, Samāna, Vyāna, Cakṣus, Śrotram, Rasa, Ghrāṇa, Sparśa, Buddhi and Manas.

    There for example is Mind's Eye, Caksus, which is unlike Indra, because ordinary vision requires a physical eyeball and a psychological response to stimulus, may be easily tricked. This is incorporeal vision that represents Perfect Sight.

    "Later mythology" means the Sadhyas appear in Mahabharata numerous times, but, barely have any references in Bhagavata Purana.

    "Narayana" is in Rg Veda as the author of Purusha Sukta. That's it.

    The famous name Narayana is split like a wishbone with substantially different lore in Bhagavata and Brahmanda Puranas.

    Devi Bhagavata Purana truncates the "race of Dharma" to:

    Hari, Kṛṣṇa, Nara and Nārāyaṇa

    And speaks of Sage Narayana, who was also a target of alarmed, paranoid Indra.

    However the name appears in over 140 chapters.

    Notice the osmosis of author:

    The notion of the Virāṭ Puruṣa is evidently a development of the idea in seed form, in Puruṣa sūkta of Ṛgveda. The Virāṭa Puruṣa is otherwise called Nārāyaṇa in the Bhāgavatpurāṇa.

    It was one person, who wrote one hymn, which can be shown as laterally attached to at least two more. Inter-textuality is the way to evaluate the entire Sanskrit ethos. It is not quite "plagiarism" as a type of theft, it is a way to confirm, support, or antagonize and reject. It is an intentional re-use, rather than an attempt to appear as the original.

    Of course, in many cases, the name of the author is because they are an ardent follower of the subject deity. Because Narayana has not contributed any other hymns, then, that is a decent argument that Narayana is an identity of Purusha, perhaps even a better personal name of it.

    That is pretty much what Narayana Upanishad of Krishna Yajur Veda says:

    The Ṛgveda teaches this.

    Nārāyaṇa is the only one that is stainless, sinless, changeless, and unnameable, and that is pure and divine. There is no second. Whoever knows Him thus, becomes Viṣṇu Himself. The Yajurveda teaches this.

    It does not clearly mention Sadhyas or Visvedevas.

    Narayana is also substantial in Chandogya Upanishad. The chronology and authorship of Chandogya Upanishad, along with the Brihadaranyaka and Kau****aki Upanishads, is further complicated because they are compiled anthologies of literature that must have existed as independent texts before they became part of these Upanishads.

    Scholars have offered different estimates ranging from 800 BCE to 600 BCE, all preceding Buddhism.

    The more intricate Mahanarayana Upanishad, whose largest edition is also in Krishna Yajurveda, is later, and functions similarly to a Saman:

    These relative chronology estimates date the text to second half of 1st millennium BCE.

    The text extracts, repeats and integrates the hymns from the Vedic texts. For example, its first ten chapters reference and include hymn fragments or entire hymns from Rigveda 1.18, 1.22, 1.164, 2.3, 4.58, 5.82, 9.96 and 10.81, Yajurveda 32.1 through 32.4, Atharvaveda 10.8.13.

    The chapter 2 of the text gives, for example, an elaborate version of the Rigvedic Gayatri mantra.

    Stating the obvious, the major effort of the work is balance with Rudra, and the general page omits I.99 and Durga Sukta.

    So, yes, one could reasonably speculate the Upanishad must have had some kind of background by 1,000 B. C. E.; as to whether you can stretch that to archaically beyond the Vedas, I am not sure. If we think about this for a minute, it means Mahanarayana Upanishad was quite possibly cutting-edge when Ashoka took over India.

    If Rg Veda does not go into enough detail to explain any of this, and, Brahmanda Purana does, this is how it would characterize the second person of the Trinity, the sustainer and protector:

    Vishnu is an Aditya and the youngest Deva.

    Narayana is a Sadhya, a Deva that is so supreme it is beyond the Thirty-three Devas, it has a continuous memory through the Manvantaras. In our world, he is a son of Dharma.

    It is also possible that Sage Narayana was a sadhya, that is, a highly realized practitioner, an Atharvan.

    In terms of identity, nothing is more potent than Devi Suktam--*I* am...she starts with four classes, i. e. Rudras, Vasus, Adityas, Visvedevas, then names a few individuals, then a trio of Adityas:

    tváṣṭāram utá pūṣáṇam bhágam

    Written by Vak, who is Vak, or Vak Viraj, counterpart of Brahma Viraj or Purusha or Purusha Suktam.

    That is why these male and female sounding hymns are both simultaneously true, and so is the Hiranyagarbha Suktam.

    She is counted in a compilation of Vedic RshikA:

    GhoshA (Kakshivati, Rgveda 10, 39),

    Sraddhã (KAmAyanI,10, 151),

    SikatA (NivAvarI, 9, 86),

    Agastya-svasãA(10. 60),

    SArpa rAjñI (10, 189),

    IndrasnushA(Vasukra-patniI 10, 28),

    GodhA (10, 134),

    Nadi (3,33),

    LopAmudrA (1, 179),

    ViSvavArA (AtreyI , 5, 28),

    VAk (AmbhranI, 10, 125),

    YamI (VaivasvatI, 10, 10),

    SASvatI (AngirasI, 8, 1),

    SaramA (DevaSunI, 10, 108),

    SUryA (SAvitri, 10, 85).

    SachI (PulomI, 10, 159),

    JuhU (Brahma-jAyA, 10, 109),

    DakshinA (PrajApatyA 10, 107),

    Aditi (DAkshAyanI, 10, 72),

    RAtri (Bharadvaji, 10,127),

    RomaSA (Brahma-vAdiinI, 1, 126 and 1 27) and

    ApalA (8, 7)

    A few of those are a little sketchy; Nadi are the deities of III.33 who have this modest translation of Deva Yoni:

    we are flowing to the receptacle which has been appointed by the deity

    As soon as we tap in to what is going on with Rishika Vak, this metastasizes and magnifies and will bring us back to where we are. Will newly post what this is so far.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    As I suspected, this would be rather arcane when examined.

    I had previously studied Honey Doctrine in Puranas and Upanishads and found it led to the Atharva Veda in an unusual way.

    I decided to ask the Rg Veda, because no one has.

    It turns out to be what it is about.

    First we have to point out this is particularly because of Tvastr who begins in the beginning and gathers momentum all the way through.

    Part of the additional meaning is represented by Grtasamada in Book Two:

    tvaṣṭā, further explained as the sage who created Brahmaṇaspati by the efficacy of the sāma

    That is one of the main underlying principles of the Veda, and, it is exactly these deities that have been discarded since then, along with the Sadhyas.

    In the previous post, we looked at the popular Purusha Suktam and what it may have to do with Narayan, and then Devi Suktam already throws us into deeper waters by giving us multiple Deva kingdoms. This is like a geometric stamp on forever.

    From her we then found Vedic support for Kadru who is probably Ila Devi.

    No one has asked about honey, but someone did say are there any women, and uncovered a decent quantity. This is somewhat manual work because nothing says "Kadru" with any link, because it is in combinations like kadreva-, and you have to assess all this stuff. Even Sayana, he is, maybe, about 70-30 on having something useful to say, and it is obvious he is not in touch with a substantial part of the basis.

    Working from the list, Apala is filed under the wrong number; her hymn turns out to be autobiographical in a way that is elaborated in Śāṭyāyaṇa Brāhmaṇa. She is a daughter of Atreya who in VIII.91:

    “A young woman going to the water found Soma in the path; as she carried it home she said, I will press you for Indra, I will you for Śakra.”

    ...drink this Soma pressed by my teeth together with fried grains of barley, the karambha, cakes and hymns.

    ...often hated by our husband and forced to leave him, may we be united to Indra.

    “These three places-- do you cause them all to grow-- my father's (bald) head, his (barren) field, and my body.”

    Crop: i.e., make them all hairy, romaśani

    Thrice did you purify: Indra dragged her through the wide hole of his chariot, the narrower hole of the cart, and the small hole of the yoke, and she cast off three skins. The first skin became a hedge-hog, the second an alligator, the third a chameleon.

    The citation is crisp for V.28:

    Viśvavārā = feminine

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): viśvāvārātreyī;
    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): agniḥ ;

    “Agni, when kindled, spreads lustre through the firmament, and shines widely in the presence of the dawn; Viśvavārā, facing the east, glorifying the gods with praises, and bearing the ladle with the oblation, proceeds (to the sacred fire).”

    She is interested in this kind of Agni:

    amṛtasya rājasi

    Three kinds of sacrificial fires, according to the Taittirīya are: havyavāhana, which receives the oblation intended for the gods; the kavyavāhana, that intendended for the pitara; and the saharakṣas, that intended for the asuras; the worshipper is directed to select the first, on this occasion.

    She is probably the first of her kind, or, we see "daughter of Atreya" in Books Five and Eight.

    Old Books only came from a few hands, so, it is not really a huge deal to say "all the women are in Late Books". I would think it shows the "concentrated" phase of development that shows more people are participating in a stable affair.

    As to it, or, experience, being somewhat schizophrenic, Sasvati does not show up until the end of VIII.1.34:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): śaśvatyāṅgirasyāsaṅgasya patnī;
    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): āsaṃṅgaḥ

    This is a hymn that has transitioned authors a few times. She is talking to her husband, author of the previous lines:

    Asanga, descendant of Yādu

    but it is unclear if this may be an epithet of the author from Verse Three to here:

    medhātithimedhyātithī kāṇvau

    You have broken to pieces the moveable city of Śuṣṇa...

    two peacock-tailed, white-backed horses

    “When Sūrya harassed Etaśa, Śatakratu conveyed (to his aid) Kutsa, the son of Arjuni, with his two prancing horses (swift) as the wind, and stealthily approached the irresistible Gandharva.”

    may our libations, flowing through the filter, dropping quickly, and diluted with consecrated water



    It starts as a fairly normal Indra hymn, until you get to the part where the Sage explains his name:

    Praise (me), praise (me), Medhyātithi, for among the wealthy we are the most liberal donors of wealth to you...

    “(So praise me, saying), "Asaṅga, the son of playoga, has given more than others, Agni, by tens of thousands; ten times the (number of) vigorous and brilliant oxen (given by him) to me, issue forth like the reeds of a lake.”

    and because it is a mostly normal hymn, it is out of the blue for the woman to come in and say:

    “Śaśvatī, perceiving that the signs of manhood were restored, exclaims, "Joy, husband, you are capable of enjoyment".”

    he is capable of:

    arya bhojanam

    Playogi has no meaning other than these four lines,

    Plāy (प्लाय्):—(pla = pra and √ay = i; cf. pla-√kṣar and pla-yoga) [Ātmanepada] plāyate, to go away, go along

    asaṅga (असंग).—a (S) Lone, solitary, wanting a companion.

    Solitary, unassociated. E. a neg. saṅga with.

    So this Sage in the Kanva line seems, to me, at least, to be calling himself Wealthy Benefactor, and the other may simply be Solitary on the Yoga Path.

    The same author refers to Asanga being turned into a woman in VIII.33.17-19:

    strī hi brahmā

    a woman from a brahma priest, yes, it literally says this.

    I would assume it to be a colorful expression.

    First of all, whether the name is "Asanga, son of Prayogi"--which may be unlikely because this may be the very introduction of yoga--he may just be introducing the term yoga or yogi in this capacity.

    Part of his yoga is intended to be sexual, to which, he, effectively, has become a woman.

    Regardless of whether it is a real name, or a descriptive title, the net result is clearly the wife celebrating the restoration of virility.

    Many forms of "yoga" are *everywhere* in the Veda, generically, without being visible as its own subject. If anything, this may loosen up with X.114 from the lineage of Tapas:

    What sage hath learned the metres' application? Who hath gained Vak, the spirit's aim and object?
    Which ministering priest is called eighth Hero? Who then hath tracked the two Bay Steeds of Indra?

    káš chándasāṃ yógam ā́ veda dhī́raḥ kó dhíṣṇyām práti vā́cam papāda
    kám ṛtvíjām aṣṭamáṃ šū́ram āhur hárī índrasya ní cikāya káḥ svit

    Two bay horses: The Ṛk and the Sāman are intended

    Here the proximity yoga--veda becomes "learned the application", which is a bit underwhelming. Although the meaning is right, or, this does not sound different from what we would mean by Yoga, to evoke Vak. Otherwise, there is no context about "playoga", whether a person, thing, or thing to do.

    So in just a couple of hymns, we find a woman with hair or skin problems, and a man with no power, therefor wrecking their love lives.

    Of course, the rest of the women have clan names and you would understand the network better by focusing them.

    The other one that may not be a normal fit is sārparājñī sūryo vā X.189:

    Deity Sārparājñī: i.e., Kadru, the mother of the serpent race; Yajuṣ3.6-8

    ending by including:

    Stations = muhūrtas

    and briefly would appear directed towards:

    gauḥ pṛśnir

    moving many-coloured (Sun)

    who, seated with Mother in the East, moves towards Pitr in the:

    svaḥ ||

    or Svar Loka.

    Nothing has merited the nomination of Kadru yet.

    The author's name fits in the only place where this is discussed, or, rather, practiced, in Bharadvaja Srauta Sutra:

    1. After having recited the formula pertaining to the setting up of the sacred fire in accordance with the gotra of the sacrificer, he should utter the two Vyāhṛtis, bhūḥ bhuvaḥ.

    2. Then the two sārparājñī verses, “Thou art the earth in depth, sky in breadth, midregion in greatness. In thy lap, O goddess Aditi, I place Agni, the food-eater for the eating of food.—The spotted bull has come and reached again the mother and the father faring to the heaven.”

    ...the third, “He rules thirty places; speech resorts to the bird; do thou bear it with the days.


    One should deposit the fire of the sacrificer, who is desirous of Brahman-splendour, when the sun has fully risen.

    3. After having recited the formula pertaining to the setting up of the sacred fire in accordance with the gotra of the sacrificer, the Adhvaryu should utter the three Vyāhṛtis, bhūḥ, bhuvaḥ, and suvaḥ.

    4. Then he should recite the two sārparājñī verses—the first, “Thou art the earth in depth... and the fourth, “From his expiration she wanders between the worlds with her inspiration; the bull discerns the heaven.”

    12. (With the formulas,) “O Agni, thy form, being purified and dear, which is in the cattle, in the earth, in the fire, in the Rathantara Sāman, in the Gāyatrī metre,I hold fast that thy form for that to thee, svāhā.—O Agni, thy form, purifying and dear, which is in water, in the midregion, in the wind, in the Vāmadevya Sāman, in the Triṣṭubh metre, I hold fast that thy form; for that to thee, svāhā.—O Agni, thy form, shining and dear, which is in the sun, in the heaven, in the sun, in the Bṛhat Sāman, in the Jagatī metre, I hold fast that thy form; for that to thee, svāhā.

    “The wave rich in honey has emerged from the ocean; it has fully attained ambrosia through the Soma-stalk. It is the secret name of clarified butter, the tongue of the gods, the navel of ambrosia.—We praise the name of clarified butter; we support it in this sacrifice with praise. May the Brahman hear the Veda being recited. The four-horned buffalo has vomited this.—He has four horns, three feet, two heads, and seven hands. The bull tied at three places bellows. The great god has entered the mortals.”

    To me, that sounds more like a Vedic lineage than forgetting King Santanu.

    Sarparajni is something particularly for the Householder:

    One should deposit the Gārhapatya fire with all the sārparājñī verses.

    “If I have scattered thee in anger, in rage or through misfortune, that of thee, O Agni, be in good order. We relight thee,” he should deposit the Anvāhāryapacana fire.

    10. With the verse, “Whatever of thee scattered in rage was spread over the earth, that the Ādityas, Viśve Devas and the Vasus gathered together,” he should deposit the Āhavanīya fire.

    If we follow Sayana to Yajur Veda, this is something popular because it is the scientific argument about orbital mechanics:

    Yajurveda 3.6 & Markandey Puran 78.9 clearly describes Earth shape as Spherical (like egg) and says that it moves (turns) around Sun

    The similar verse occurs in Atharva-veda 6.31.1

    That is what is being drawn from this, but, what we will find is the whole hymn is stuffed in anonymously to a longer compound hymn in White Yajur Veda:

    6 This spotted Bull hath come and sat before the Mother and
    The Father, mounting up to heaven.

    7 As expiration from his breath his radiance penetrates within:
    The Bull shines out through all the sky.

    8 He rules supreme through thirty realms. Song is bestowed
    upon the Bird
    Throughout the days at break of morn.

    O Brahmanaspati, make him who presses Soma glorious,
    Even Kakshîvân Ausija.

    May Jamadagni's triple life, the triple life of Kasyapa,
    The triple life of Deities—may that same triple life be ours.

    It is a related but very different application, certainly nothing about Kadru there.

    AV VI.31 is *only* the hymn as it is in Rg Veda.

    There is a Vedic Kadru from another Kanva in an Indra hymn after:

    Soma mixed with milk


    “Indra drank the Soma offering of Kadru, (he smote the enemies) of the thousand-armed; there did his might shine forth.”


    In battle of a thousand arms Indra drank Kadru's Soma juice:
    There he displayed his manly might.

    apibat kadruvaḥ sutam indraḥ sahasrabāhve | atrādediṣṭa pauṃsyam ||

    “Well-knowing those (sacrificial) deeds of Turvaśa and Yadu, he overcame Anhavāyya in battle.”

    “I praise our common (Indra), the deliverer of your families, the slayer (of your enemies, the bestower) of riches in cattle.”

    When given the name, Sayana does not know if it is "a Rishi" or Puranic Kadru. The dictionary thinks it is no one:

    a cert. Soma-vessel

    a brown Soma-vessel, [Ṛg-veda viii, 45, 26]

    Because it generically means a color, tawny or spotted, it might be the color of a cup, or a snake.

    There is not a male Sage Kadru suggested anywhere.

    There is a female in the layer of Brahmanical commentary on Vedic Soma:

    Quote We find the myth of the Soma-theft in the following texts of the later Veda, mostly in texts belonging to the black and white Yajurveda. These different versions present certain variations. Some of these passages briefly state that the Soma is in the third heaven.

    Other versions[16] present a more developed and complete form of the story, which can be summarized as follows: Kadru (the Earth) and Suparni (Speech;sometimes the Sky) hold a bet. Which Suparni loses. Kadru tells her to get for her the Soma, which is kept in the third heaven, to pay for her freedom. Suparni sends one after the other her three children, the meters Jagati, Trishtubh and Gayatri. (Alternatively, the Gods and rishis request the meters to get the Soma which is in heaven). Only the Gayatri, although she is the smallest meter, manages to bring back the Soma, holding two pressings in her feet and one in her beak. Some of these versions have one common point with the Rigvedic account, namely that a Soma-guardian (a Gandharva named Vishvavasu or Krishanu) cuts off either a Soma-leaf, or a feather (or claw) of the Gayatri, as she flies away with the Soma. This leaf / feather/claw undergoes certain transformations when it falls down.


    Taittiriya Samhita. 6.1.6;

    Kathaka Samhita 23.10;

    Shatapatha Brahmana.;

    Aai.Br. 3.25-26;

    That is a broad agreement, which brings us to the tiniest piece of definition for Kadru:

    6) f. (ūs) a particular divine personification (described in certain legends which relate to the bringing down of the Soma from heaven ; according to the Brāhmaṇas, ‘the earth personified’), [Taittirīya-saṃhitā vi; Śatapatha-brāhmaṇa iii, vi; Kāṭhaka etc.]

    We have heard of the Moon considered as a Soma Vessel, and, this may be saying the Earth is one too.

    It may be the color of soil, or autumn leaves, I am not sure. I am fairly sure Vedic Kadru is not Sarparajni, who remains ambiguous.

    YV would leave her flummoxed, so, the Bharadwaj corpus is showing us something pretty specific by porting pieces and then the whole thing.

    By now, I would hope that someone would get the idea that it is not "a higher direction up", but, the Third Heaven, Svar Loka or Swarga, which only has a mental existence. This is easily distinguishable by Vedic Sarparajni in AV:

    To Sūrya the Sun-God

    1This spotted Bull hath come and sat before his mother in the
    Advancing to his father Heaven.
    2As expiration from his breath his radiance penetrates within.
    The Bull shines out through all the sky.
    3He rules supreme through thirty realms—One winged with song
    hath made him mount
    Throughout the days at break of morn.

    āyaṃ gauḥ pṛśnir akramīd asadan mātaram puraḥ | pitaraṃ ca prayan svaḥ ||

    antaś carati rocanāsya prāṇād apānatī | vy akhyan mahiṣo divam ||

    triṃśad dhāma vi rājati vāk pataṃgāya dhīyate | prati vastor aha dyubhiḥ ||

    Sayana is oblivious to "winged" or "flying" and says "voice of praise", but, this is Vak:

    Pataṃga (पतंग).—[adjective] flying; [masculine] bird, insect, [especially] grasshopper, butterfly, or moth (also pataga).

    Pataṅga (पतङ्ग):—[pata-ṅga] (ṅgaḥ) 1. m. A grasshopper, a bird; the sun; rice.

    Name of the author of [Ṛg-veda x, 177] and of this hymn itself

    That is true and it begins the first two lines of X.177 where nothing is said about upward motion or flight:

    “The wise behold their mind; (seated) in their heart the Sun made manifest by the illusion of the asura; the sages look into the solar orb, the ordainers (of solar worship) desire the region of his rays.”

    “The Sun bears the (sacred) word in his mind the Gandharva has spoken it, (abiding) within the womb; sages cherish it in the place of sacrifice, brilliant, heavenly ruling the mind.”

    “I beheld the protector (the Sun), never descending, going by his paths to the east and to the west; clothing (with light) the (four) quarters of heaven and the intermediate spaces, he constantly revolves in the midst of the worlds.”

    The links in Book One *do* translate as winged or flying. So the AV translation "one winged with song" probably is a good fit for Vak Patanga.

    Those verses are gayatris so people could easily do them somewhat correctly. Even I could do that. Those are Sarparajni Gayatris. We have no clue that she would be intended as Kadru or any other affiliation.

    X.189 in the more basic literal translation:

    THIS spotted Bull hath come, and sat before the Mother in the east,
    Advancing to his Father heaven.

    Expiring when he draws his breath, she moves along the lucid spheres:
    The Bull shines out through all the sky.

    Song is bestowed upon the Bird: it rules supreme through thirty realms
    Throughout the days at break of morn.

    If unfortunately we couldn't find "Sarparajni" to mean anything related to Kadru, could it be related to something, probably so, the author of X.94:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): arbudaḥ kādraveyaḥ sarpaḥ [arbuda kādraveya sarpa];
    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): grāvāṇaḥ;

    He definitely calls himself a snake in the brood of Kadru.

    We think this is the earth named for its color.

    There are victorious Kadrus in Book Eight, so, this guy is part of something more than his own selection.

    In the Fauna report. Talageri did nothing with snakes, so we have no tip. Well, in a few words, snakes are also named for their color. In this case, they are being named for their mode of conveyance, i. e. close to Kadru. That this is so in terms of a regular verb is easily shown in a quick vocabulary polish from VIII.17 by the Tamil irimbiṭhiḥ kāṇvaḥ who at first used Brahma and Brahmanaspati in the manner just studied:

    “May this Soma, invested (with milk), approach you, observant Indra, like a bride (clad in white apparel).”

    Like women, let this Soma-draught, invested with its robe, approach,
    O active Indra, close to thee.


    “crawl; spread; wander.”

    this being another gayatri:

    ayam u tvā vicarṣaṇe janīr ivābhi saṃvṛtaḥ | pra soma indra sarpatu ||

    It is not "Indra the snake", but "Soma approach Indra".

    Crawling, in the Puranas, is the result of a curse, but there are not enough snakes in the Veda to do much but rationalize the term "sarpa".

    “(Indra), who was the offspring of Śṛṅgavṛṣa, of whom the kuṇḍapāyya rite was the protector, (the sages) have fixed (of old) their minds upon this ceremony.”

    Napat = apatya, offspring

    With head uplifted like a serpent:


    So, that is another expression, Prdaka, as a better option for a snake with raised head as compared to crawling.

    Otherwise, there are a few instances of "sarpa" either in its verb form, or, as a snake in general context. Nothing particularly special until you try to figure it as Ahi. So, here, it does not seem Kadru "is" a snake, but obviously is "close" to them since they lack legs.

    Another Sarpa composed a hymn for the same deity, Grava X.76. This one is from the less-intuitive Airavata clan. If it is weird to think of a snake as born from Mother Earth, it perhaps is weirder to think of them as related to Elephants. These names do not seem to be species-to-species equivalents.

    By these Sarpas, we find Grava apparently deified.

    According to Viswamitra, Tvastr produces one's son who wields it--copied by Vasistha.

    According to Atri:

    he whose stone is uplifted, whose Soma juice is effused

    yuktagrāvā sutasomo

    Medatithi Kanva to:

    Neṣṭā (= Tvaṣṭā), with your spouse (gnāvo = grava?)

    Tvaṣṭā assumes the functions of Neṣṭṛ as the priest at a sacrifice

    Neṣṭra (नेष्ट्र).—[neuter] the Soma vessel or office of the Nestr

    Given in II.1.2by:

    āṅgirasaḥ śaunahotro bhārgavo gṛtsamadaḥ

    The anatomical view was suggested for Sunhashepa:

    grāvā pṛthubudhna ūrdhvo

    having a broad sole or under-part

    broad in the hinder part (as a worm)

    That is because in the adjustable meanings of Sanskrit, the next line has "jaghana", which *could* mean hips or buttocks, but, with two platters, boards, or bowls, adhi savanya, is shifted towards its other potential meaning, vagina lips. Because "grava" consistently refers to base, bottom, then this first line does appear to be a big behind. Yes, of course, physically it can still be a Pestle, or a stone-lined hole in the ground, etc., which is where most of the desired product would be. This hymn has a repeated refrain where enjoyment is found by drops dripping from the Mortar, which again sounds slightly less than physically literal.

    Savana apparently being "juice", adhi "towards", Adhi Savanya is the receiver that juice is pressed towards, the Jaghana.

    In a non-deified manner, grava is mentioned by Gautama:

    may the stone (that bruises the Soma) attract, by its sound, your mind towards us.

    Parucchepa Divodas:

    “Pass, (Vāyu), by the many sleeping (worshippers) and go (with Indra) to the house where the stone resounds; Indra (and Vāyu), go to that dwelling; (go where) the (word of) truth is manifest; (go where) the butter flows; go both well-fed horses to the sacrifice; Indra (and Vāyu), repair to the sacrifice.”

    aśvattha = the religious fig tree; explained here as the Soma found spread through mountains and the like,

    I am not sure what is the difference between sleepers and "noisy stones", but, moderately suggestive.

    purified by the stones:


    to the reservoir, flows clad in its refulgent light:

    pari kośam arṣati = kośa-sthānīyam grahamprāpnoti, it goes to the ladle

    śukrā vasāno arṣati

    sutānām adribhir

    Need to watch how we translate:

    Adribhid (अद्रिभिद्).—m. (-bhit) A name of Indra. E. adri, and bhid who breaks; the splitter of mountains, (with his thunderbolt.)

    splitting mountains or clouds, [Ṛg-veda vi, 73, 1]

    Adri (अद्रि) refers to a “stone”

    2) A stone, especially one for pounding Soma with or grinding it on.

    pavitram is a term applied to bundle of kuśa grass, which is supposed to purify the Soma or the butter poured upon it; it is here explained the receiver of the Soma placed slopingly or obliquely, or a filter or a strainer made of wool.

    Likely receptacles:

    The juhū is a sruc, a spoon, the sruva, a ladle.


    A crescent-shaped wooden ladle used for pouring the sacrificial ghee into the fire.

    personified as wife of Brahmā and goddess of speech (author of [Ṛg-veda x, 109])

    a tongue ([especially] of Agni; 7 are named, [Ṛg-veda i, 58, 7])

    A few stray remarks:

    “The mighty winged (Soma) whose father is Parjanya has placed his dwelling on the navel of the earth among the mountains; the sisters, the waters flow to (the produce of) the kine; he meets with the stones at the beloved sacrifice.”

    somaḥ is implied in mahiṣasya parṇinaḥ (The mighty winged)

    The mountains are the grinding-stones; the navel of the earth is the oblation.

    May the stone be uplifted, gods, when I make the libation; disperse all my secret adversaries

    ūrdhvo grāvā

    AV VI.3:

    Guard us the Maruts! Guard us well, O Indra, Pushan, Aditi.
    Guard us, O Waters' Child, and Rivers Seven. May Vishnu
    guard us, and the Sky.
    2May Heaven and Earth take care of us for victory, may Pressing-
    Stone and Soma save us from distress.
    Sarasvati, auspicious Goddess, guard us well: preserve us Agni
    and his kind protecting powers.
    3Preserve us both the Asvins, Gods and Lords of Light, and let
    the Dawns and Night bring us deliverance.
    The Waters' Child protect our house from every harm. Do thou,
    God Tvashtar, make us strong for health and wealth.

    It would read, as deities of (2), Dyava, Prithvi, Grava, Soma, and I can imagine how they might ease distress.

    Visvedeva X.109 turns out to be a woman's story that is pre-told by Sayana. I get certain ideas when a woman names herself for a Spoon:

    juhūrbrahmajāyā, ūrdhvanābhā vā brāhmaḥ

    The Spoon that is "Brahma's Wife", raised from the navel of Brahma. It almost sounds Trinitarian but also reverts well to meaning the brahman, the priest. This obviously is her name and the favor is:

    First, the royal Soma, without being ashamed, restored Brahmā's wife (brahmajāyām) (to Bṛhaspati)

    Or the Devas:

    ...exclaimed against the outrage on a Brahman.

    King Soma first of all, without reluctance, made restitution of the Brahman's consort.

    Arguably we find female Bhima:

    The terrible wife of Brahma has been brought back (to her husband); (penance) elevates into the highest heaven.”

    bhīmā jāyā brāhmaṇasyopanītā durdhāṃ dadhāti parame vyoman ||

    Thus spake of her those Gods of old, Seven Rsis who sate them down to their austere devotion:
    Dire is a Brahman's wife led home by others: in the supremest heaven she plants confusion.

    Here is the analogy of her name:

    tena jāyām anv avindad bṛhaspatiḥ somena nītāṃ juhvaṃ na devāḥ ||

    Bṛhaspati obtained his wife (formerly) brought him by Soma, as the gods receive an offering.

    Through him Brhaspati obtained his consort, as the Gods gained the ladle brought by Soma.

    Jāyā (जाया).—[feminine] wife, consort

    Getting a wife/consort is like getting a Spoon.

    It does not say an "offering" like "havya", etc., it says the object, Juhu.

    Happily ever after:

    “The gods gave her back again, men also gave her back, and kings confirming (the gift) gave Brahmā's wife back again.”

    She negates Brahma's original crisis:


    One would not think this is the same Brhaspati as the antecedent of Book Six, and, the line with the slight innuendo is the only place Brhaspati is explicitly identified, and says how this works:

    brahmacārī carati veviṣad viṣaḥ sa devānām bhavaty ekam aṅgam | tena jāyām anv avindad bṛhaspatiḥ somena nītāṃ juhvaṃ na devāḥ ||

    “He leads the life of a Brahmacārin, even adoring all the gods; he becomes a portion of the gods; therefore, Bṛhaspati obtained his wife (formerly) brought him by Soma, as the gods receive an offering.”

    The Brahmacari goes engaged in duty: he is a member of the Gods' own body.
    Through him Brhaspati obtained his consort, as the Gods gained the ladle brought by Soma.

    This is the same Juhu saying it, evidently she is aware that the deity, Brhaspati, is with her, because present in her husband.

    Notice all of these tales end in victory and success. I don't think anywhere in the Veda misery prevails.

    We have shifted the view of Kadru because it means she must have been around Parasurama's time, and is probably an alternym of Ila Devi.

    Sarparajni is Sun Gayatris intricately involved with Saman according to Bharadwaj Gotra.

    No doctrine is given, although Devi Suktam is clear that the Thirty-three Devas are quintessential, plus Visvedevas, who themselves have numerous hymns. I don't think it is usually brought up that Subjectivity and Objectivity are the spawn of Dharma. Kasyapa is the "bed of nature", the organisms and natural processes, and then there is Soma.

    If it is evident that the Sadhyas are the most perfected type of Deva, I am not sure why you would obliterate the memory.

    That opposes their ethos.

    This is very interesting about a Vedic Kadru, and we may be able to find something about the Rishikas of the more famous clans or Gotras.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    These posts, are they a train of thought, written in one sitting? Or a compilation or synopsis of a treatise?

    Whatever the case, it is mesmerizing to read it, a sort of literary salve for the mind.

    I don't understand it, yet some words, phrases, and titles are familiar. They seem to evoke a sense of familiarity based merely on a symbolic level of commonality, perhaps. A place before intellect and reason, yet intrinsically related to both. Is it the level where the yoke is introduced to the mind? So much fanfare and pomp are recounted, and other accoutrements attributable to the flesh. Even the gods are comparable based on physical distinctions, lineage, and accomplishments.

    When reading I always think of the yoga. The principles of which are designed not to break, but to illustrate through the use of the postures the existence of, the yoke.
    I get the same sense when reading these posts.
    Last edited by Ernie Nemeth; 27th January 2024 at 20:51. Reason: moved a comma
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    Free will can only be as free as the mind that conceives it.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    These posts, are they a train of thought, written in one sitting? Or a compilation or synopsis of a treatise?

    Well, a combination.

    Like a thirty-year project of combining multiple thirty-year projects.

    For example, on the Rig Veda particularly, besides the English translations, the only real "studies" of it in its own light were Sri Aurobindo (ca. 1930s), and then just a few in the modern era such as David Frawley and Srikant Talageri. To an extent, I am re-compiling the salient points I have gotten from them.

    Unfortunately, I was forced to find out the "opposite camp" was partly established by Dayanand Saraswati who quarreled with the Theosophical Society, then the guy who literally wrote the pamphlet on Hindutva. In actuality, the country, India, has some serious problems, one of which might be that they are ignorant of the Veda.

    Secondly as you next said, making the posts is a form of yoga, for example in the Buddhist view we would say part of the Bodhisattva Path is to "study, internalize, and re-distribute scriptures". I personally am not claiming to be non-sectarian, while at the same time my own teachings tell me to find and use anything good from Hindu lore. And so for the most part I am going into the whole Sanskrit language.

    Any valid yoga is a Yogacara, the difference in "sects" being mostly minor, so I wanted to post on the Vedas and some related Sanskrit materials separately from Buddhism, itself.

    You can't trust what anyone says about the Rg Veda and so I will return with the rest about the references to women Sages. It is partly true but it is not like some authors like Wendy Doniger might say, this isn't about "women's rights" or anything like that, actually I think they are going to give a perfect explanation of Yoga. I would suggest the Rg Veda represents a time frame of language developing from first *mentioning* praises on mythology that has a yogic ring to it, up to illustrating a somewhat detailed view.

    Yes I use a lot of tabs and it takes a while to make those kind of posts, but, I am just a student, I don't have a pre-conceived answer that told me what to do. It turned out that Tvastr goes through each book, continues in the lineage of Yajnawalkya, and then is fairly clear in the Brahmanda Purana and less so in others. The narrative has already framed itself, I am only tracing what that is.

    Sanskrit is a fairly easy, and fun, language. For example, this gathers like wool:

    eka, dvi, tri, chatur, pancha, shad, sapta, asta, nava, das

    Doesn't really require translation, does it?

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Part Three

    It is a famous enough group of women in the Rg Veda, however the raw list is somewhat misleading because they are not all Sages in terms of uttering a complete hymn.

    The articles on Voice of Dharma sound like Talageri and look better than his blogging, because, it turns out, it is his published book.

    So we will pass the Rishikas listed above through his Composers article and try to finish it.

    He has done some great work, but is not asking the same questions as a devotee. Such as ignoring snakes. So he has not picked up on this one that appears to be named "Marut Gana", whom he places in the line of Uru ANgiras (joint composer of IX.108):

    AriStanemi TArkSya (1 hymn): X.178.
    a. The only other hymns to horses are by ANgirases
    (I.162-163; IV. 38-40) and a VasiSTha (VII. 44).
    b. The word TArkSya, outside this hymn, is found only
    in one verse by an ANgiras, Gotama RAhUgaNa

    He should realize that "asura" does not fit:

    A word meaning asura-slayer, asurahan/asuraghna,
    occuring in X.170. 2, is found elsewhere only in
    hymns by a BharadvAja (VI. 22. 4) and a VasiSTha

    We just found there is an asurya, "sunless" person, however, Talageri is correct that the word is certainly present. Bharadvaj is talking to Indra:

    pitaro navagvāḥ sapta viprāso

    the seven sages, our ancient progenitors, performing the nine days' rite

    Indra, subduer of foes, invoked of many, abounding in wealth, what is the portion, what the offering (due) to you who are the slayer of the asuras?

    Vasistha says:

    BRING song and hymn to Agni, Asura-slayer, enlightener of all and thought-bestower.
    Like an oblation on the grass, to please him, I bring this to Vaisvanara, hymn-inspirer.

    X.170 is to Surya:

    He rose, a light, that kills Vrtras and enemies, best slayer of the Dasyus, Asuras, and foes.

    Indra slew Vrtra once, but there you have Surya killing multiple Vrtras.

    Aside from whatever that is, the Veda makes a value judgment, and "Dasyus" are against that. So besides quibbling over what tribes/kingdoms these are, if you look at what is in the Veda, it is really criticizing certain people. That is, it goes against some "kinds" of people, such as either those who have no rites, or, those who attempt to honor Indra and do it horribly.

    "Dasyu" may be a category, of the rude, ugly, or dull, which is the context "Asura" is being used in here.

    Much more frequently the following would be true:

    The Brāhmaṇas state that Prajāpati created Asuras with the breath (Asu)

    which is why in Rg Veda, we would say Asuras are deities. It is never a race, it is a condition, "loser", from the Ocean of Milk, but in the Veda, a "deity" is a form of light propelled by divine breath.

    To be fair, it does seem to include the other meaning, but not in the way people think.

    You have to trickle through the definitions to find:

    Asūra (असूर).—a. Ved. Devoid of praise or worship; असूरेः सन्ति सूरयः (asūreḥ santi sūrayaḥ) Ṛgveda 8.1.4. (stotrarahita). ind. In the night.

    -ram Ved. Absence of a person to extract the Soma juice; a place devoid of praise.

    That starts to make sense, because it equates to "no rites", and we understand how sura is involved with Soma. It does not require the legend of Churning the Ocean, it already has this meaning from ordinary brewing. This may include milk, so, as a familiar activity, the idea has legs.

    Then if we fix the attribution, this is how it is used for the Aswins in VIII.10.4:

    Upon whom (all) sacrifices are dependent,

    yayor adhi pra yajñā

    of whom there are worshippers in a place where is no worship,

    asūre santi sūrayaḥ

    Another Vedic occurrence said to be "evil spirits, demons" also is a misprint because it is really in II.30.4:

    “Pierce, Bṛhaspati, with a radiant shaft, as with a thunderbolt, the sons of the asura guarding his gates; in like manner as you did formerly slay Vṛtra by your own prowess, so do you now destroy our enemy.”

    Sayana says:

    Bṛhaspati = Indra

    Nice of him, I suppose, but "asura" is "our current enemy" in Book Two. Doesn't have to be a nationality. Could be any place that Indra rites are not done properly or at all.

    The Rg Veda has Danavas, but, I do not think it has Daityas. I do not think it says "race of demons born from Diti". It does, however, know of such a thing as Diti and recognizes her in the following way:

    Savitr, Bhaga, Diti (Vasistha)

    Diti and Aditi (Vamadeva)

    Aditi and Diti


    Indra, the son of Niṣṭigrī

    Niṣṭigrī = a name of Aditi


    Iḷā (the daughter) of Dakṣa

    Diti is not in there much, and so far I don't see "the mother of our enemies" or anything like this.


    The daityas are frequently assimilated to the Vedic asuras...

    Ṛigveda (1.32.9) speaks of Vṛtra as the son of Danu." However, in books 2-7 of the Rig Veda, Vrta is not considered an asura or demon, and there is no mention of Danu or the danavas at all.

    As Talageri puts it following his argument that, before him, the actual contents of Rg Veda was important to no one:

    Quote India contained many folk of rude culture or aboriginal stock such as NiSAdas, DAsas and Pulindas. Powerful races of hostile character are often mentioned, such as DAnavas, Daityas, RAkSasas, NAgas, and Dasyus. Some of these were partly civilized, while others were rude and savage.

    I.112.5: Rebha and Vandana: Rebha and Vandana are said to have been thrown into wells by Asuras.

    From a view of metaphysical asura in a positive light, this is true:

    Quote In the Rig Veda, there are no two feuding classes Devas vs. Asuras, but only the Devas who are also Asuras. The most common reference is of the singular ‘Asura’ in the sense of ‘one supreme power’. Moreover, the Asura symbol is part of a great and profound metaphysical doctrine and mystical experience. For a modern-day practising Hindu, who has been educated in the myths of the religion, it is very hard to believe that in the oldest and most sacred book the terms mean the very opposite of what he/she may be used to. This is due to the fact that classical Hinduism draws more inspiration from the Puranas and Epics than the ancient Vedic literature.

    But this--which I believed until a few minutes ago--is not:

    Quote A tectonic shift occurs in the later Vedic literature (Yajur Veda, Atharva Veda, Brahmanas, etc) where only ‘Deva’ is used for the Vedic gods, and ‘Asura’ is now used for the anti-gods. The derivation of ‘Asura’ now changes to ‘A-sura’ i.e. “not sura”, and “sura” now becomes a synonym of ‘Deva’. This is totally unknown in Rig Veda, where “Asura” has absolutely no negative connotation.

    It has a very negative connotation. It is just a different derivation and context than the same letters/word used in other situations. One is Asur--Breath, the other is No Sura = no Soma rites. Nothing lost if it was never there.

    You might presume Vedic Asuras, even as enemies, are quite distanced from Diti. If she is a deity, someone with no rites has not heard of her.

    There are over twenty references to Adityas, none of them are Dityas or Daityas, nothing like that seems present.

    There is a phenomenal lack of Demon Family. There is a general lack of adversity, much more is put into recovery from misfortune. Problems happen and then they are fixed. Hardly anything about hell or angry ghosts, if it is in here at all.

    Now, back to what is actually in there.

    The "families" mean the lineages corresponding to the ten Apri Hymns:

    The ten AprI-sUktas, and the ten families of composers to whom they belong, are:

    1. I.13 KaNvas (Kevala-ANgirases)
    2. I.142 ANgirases
    3. I.188 Agastyas
    4. II.3 GRtsamadas (Kevala-BhRgus)
    5. III.4 ViSvAmitras
    6. V.5 Atris
    7. VII.2 VasiSThas
    8. IX.5 KaSyapas
    9. X.70 Bharatas
    10. X.110 BhRgus

    Details are not given for all of them; here are a few notes.

    Among Angirases:

    a. Agni SaucIka is identifiable with the BharadvAja
    RSi Agni BArhaspatya (joint composer of VIII. 102).
    b. SUcI is a BharadvAja gotra.

    GRtsamada (a descendant
    of BharadvAja)

    All Prajapatyas are Visvamitras, and for them:

    All the above hymns deal with the subject of
    creation. The only other hymn dealing with this
    subject is X.190, composed by AghamarSaNa
    VaiSvAmitra; and the only other verse to which the
    AnukramaNIs assign the same subject is I.24.1,
    composed by SunahSepa AjIgarti (VaiSvAmitra).

    NArAyaNa is a ViSvAmitra gotra.


    3. Manyu TApasa (2 hymns): X.83-84
    a. Manyu TApasa is identifiable with Manyu
    VAsiSTha (joint composer of IX.97).

    4. PurUravas AiLa and UrvaSI (1 hymn): X.95.

    Urvasi is also mentioned:

    once in a hymn by a VasiSTha
    (VII.33.11) where UrvaSI is referred to as the
    mother of VasiSTha.

    Indra is a VasiSTha gotra.


    VivasvAn Aditya

    a. YAmAyana or YAmyAyaNa is a BhRgu gotra.
    b. Mathita is also a BhRgu gotra.
    c. The alternative names given in the AnukramaNIs
    for the composer of X.19, Mathita YAmAyana,
    are BhRgu or Cyavana BhArgava.
    d. Yama is mentioned along with ancient, mythical
    BhRgu RSis, AtharvaNa and USanA KAvya
    in I.83.5.
    e. Hymn X.14.5 states: �Our fathers are ANgirases,
    Navagvas, AtharvaNas, BhRgus.� BhRgu hymns
    in MaNDalas IX and X often identify with both
    ANgirases and BhRgus (see, for example,
    IX. 62.9, and the comment on it in Griffith�s
    f. All the above hymns deal with the topics of
    funerals and death. Tradition ascribes the
    initiation of funeral rites and ceremonies to
    Jamadagni BhArgava.

    That is notable, that Visvamitra and the Bhrgus, both having quarreled with the "central order", are re-instated with near exclusive say on Creation and Death. Seems a little odd to say there were no funerals before Jamadagni, but, I suppose, it is not really our main motive, it might not be something you would naturally do. The Rg Vedic period as a whole starts in a Family theme, and adds these two somewhat paranormal subjects at the end.

    Well, that is probably why the book was complete, and, it is arranged in the way it is.

    So it is a bit astonishing that it includes information not only on wars with future repercussions, but, we were able to extract some amount of personal detail, such as the Sarpas and Kadru, that gives me, at least, the sense of swinging from a few straggling shepherds to an enormous flock whose purpose was, in part, to add something new.

    All the attempts to find "Brahma" revert to the human, the priest, whereas the importantly-related deity is Brahmanaspati.

    This--whether in the mundane sense or esoterically--has a mating or mated aspect.

    The simplest and most expressive hymns would be Purusha and Devi Suktas, which are found to interlace with the other material in a particular way.

    Correspondingly, Tvastr had been working on something the whole time, and Vak Devi is the first to make a complete self-identification with the divine at the end.

    Not "may we join each other", "may I go there", she speaks with conviction like an Atharvan.

    The first women appeared to be daughters of Atreya; and these are the remaining names after having looked into the ones that were slightly off:

    GhoshA (Kakshivati, Rgveda 10, 39),

    Sraddhã (KAmAyanI,10, 151),

    SikatA (NivAvarI, 9, 86),

    Agastya-svasãA(10. 60),

    IndrasnushA(Vasukra-patniI 10, 28),

    GodhA (10, 134),

    LopAmudrA (1, 179),

    SaramA (DevaSunI, 10, 108),

    SUryA (SAvitri, 10, 85).

    SachI (PulomI, 10, 159),

    DakshinA (PrajApatyA 10, 107),

    Aditi (DAkshAyanI, 10, 72),

    RAtri (Bharadvaji, 10,127),

    RomaSA (Brahma-vAdanI, 1, 126 and 1 27)

    Some have reputations that precede them:

    Lopamudra, wife of Sage Agastya:

    E. lopa losing, (reputation,) amudrā sad, not happy.


    Name of the authoress of a Sāman.


    A daughter of Bṛhaspati. The reply given by Romaśā to her husband when he teased her, is given in Ṛgveda, Maṇḍala 1, Anuvāka 19, Sūkta 126.

    The pudenda; न सेशे यस्य रोमशम् (na seśe yasya romaśam) Ṛgveda 10.86.17, x, 86, 16.

    And, the next-to-last, Ratri or "night" is perhaps a little cutting-edge for "sun worship".

    The likely earliest one,Lomasa, is famous not because she is the authoress, but has a one-line reply to this:

    “She, who, when her desires are assented to, clings as tenaciously as a female weasel, and who is ripe for enjoyment, yields me infinite delight.”

    Bhāvya says this to his wife Lomaśa;

    Weasel: Kaśīkā = sutavatsā nakulī, the female, mongoose, having brought forth young

    She says:

    “Approach me, (husband); deem me not immature; I am covered with down like a ewe of the gandhārins.”

    Her "meaning" is one we will have to salvage from the translators, who do not know how to deal with the phrase employed in the other reference:




    “govern; command; master; dominate; can; reign; control; own.”



    which appears in a perplexing twist:

    na seśe yasya rambate 'ntarā sakthyā kapṛt | sed īśe yasya romaśaṃ niṣeduṣo vijṛmbhate viśvasmād indra uttaraḥ ||
    na seśe yasya romaśaṃ niṣeduṣo vijṛmbhate | sed īśe yasya rambate 'ntarā sakthyā kapṛd viśvasmād indra uttaraḥ ||

    “The man who is impotent begets not progeny, but he who is endowed with vigour; Indra is above all(the world).”
    “[Indra speaks]: He who is endowed with vigour begets not progeny, but he who is impotent; Indra is above all (the world).”

    [Indrāṇī speaks]...

    The hymn she fully composed, I.179, Lopamudra's deity is:

    Dampati (दम्पति) denotes ‘the master of the house’ in the Rigveda, but is more often used in the dual to designate ‘the master and the mistress’, an expression that may legitimately be deemed to show the high status of women at the time of the Rigveda.

    Mostly equivalent to the sign Mithuna (Gemini).

    She gripes about old age and decay; the "student" eavesdropping the conversation absolves sin by:

    Soma, which has been drunk in my heart

    What has been drunk in my heart: antito hṛtsu pītam, drunk mentally, not actually

    The main point here is that Sage Agastya practiced both Varnas:

    kāma and tapas, desire and devotion; the duties of domestic as well as ascetic life

    The citation for Book Nine appears to use a woman's name as a partial composer of a long hymn; nothing unusual is said.

    Verse X.60.6:

    agastyasya svasaiṣāṃ mātā

    beseeches help:

    for the nephews of Agastya

    I believe says "Agastya's mother's sister", i. e. his aunt, explained by the text.

    Then a healing occurs.

    Here is one I would guess is going to tell us something.

    Ghoṣā (घोषा).—A tapasvinī famed in Ṛgveda. She was the grand-daughter of Dṛgata maharṣi and daughter of sage Kakṣīvān. As she contracted leprosy in her very childhood nobody came forward to marry her. Ultimately she composed a mantra in praise of Aśvinīdevas. They cured Ghoṣā of leprosy and she got married. (Ṛgveda, Maṇḍala 1, Anuvāka 7, Sūkta 117).

    This is who she knows of in Aswins X.39:

    “You made the aged Cyavana, when like a worn out chariot, again young and able to go; you bore the son of Tugra above the waters; all these your (exploits) are to be celebrated at our sacrifices.”

    Son of Tugra: i.e.,Bhujyu

    “You brought, Śundhyu, the daughter of Purumitra to (her husband) Vimada; you came at Vadharimati's invocation, and gave excellent offspring to her who was full of wisdom.”

    Śundhyu: the Aśvins heard her invocation in battle when her hand was cut off and gave her a golden hand

    “You made young again the life of the sage Kali, when approaching old age, you rescued Vandana from the well; you quickly enabled Viśapalā to walk.”

    Kali: cf. RV 1.112.15;

    Vandana: cf. RV 1.112.5; Vandana had thrown himself into the well through grief for the death of his wife;

    Viśpala: cf. RV 1.116.15

    “Aśvins, shedders of rain, you extricated Rebha when he was placed in a cave and was dying; you made the heated fire-pit cool for Atri; you gave (liberty) to Saptavadhri.”

    Rebha: RV 1.116.24; he was saved from a guhā, a secret place or a cavity; was dying = dead; Atri; cf. RV 1.116.8;

    Saptavadhri: cf. RV 5.78.5 and 6

    “You gave, Aśvins, to Pedu a strong white horse with nine-and-ninety (other) steeds, (a horse), active(in combat), putting to flight the friends (of the foe), worthy to be invoked, a source of deligght, like wealth to meṇ”

    “Do you two, Aśvins, climb the path to the mountain with your triumphant chariot; you have renovated for Śayu (barren) cow; you liberated by your acts the quail that had been seized from the jaws of the wolf.”

    Jayuṣā: cf. RV. 6.62.7;

    Śayu: cf. RV 1.118.8; you liberateḍ..wolf: cf. RV 1.116.17]. this praise like a son, the eternal performer of rites, we have decked (with ornaments, your laudation) among men, as if had been a wife.

    We have prepared this laud for you, O Asvins, and, like the Bhrgus, as a car have framed it,
    Have decked it as a maid to meet the bridegroom, and brought it as a son, our stay for ever.

    Sarama is a deity who tracked Vala. Bitch of the Devas. Śyāma and Śabala, sons of Saramā, were two prominent messengers of Yama and they possessed four eyes each. The offsprings of these dogs are called Sārameyas. The Ṛgveda and Mahābhārata contain a story about Saramā cursing Janamejaya.

    In Verse Two, she takes over:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): saramā devaśunī;
    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): praṇayaḥ

    She is having a conversation with:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): paṇayo' surāḥ

    Pani Asura.

    She also equates Indra to Brhaspati:

    Kine which Brhaspati, and Soma, Rsis, sages, and pressing-stones have found when hidden.


    X.85 is the feminized sun god.

    This is a wedding hymn and the marriage described is mainly to Soma, but there is more. The trend of ideas is:

    Soma is stationed in the vicinity of these Nakṣatras.

    He who has drunk thinks that the herb which men crush is the Soma; (but) that which the Brāhmaṇas know to be Soma,, of that no one partakes.

    “Concealed by means of coverings, protected by the Bārhats, O Soma, you abide listening to the grinding-stones; no terrestrial being partakes of you.”

    Vāyu is the guardian of Soma, the maker of years and months.

    As forms of songs:

    “Raibhi was her companion; Nārāśaṃsī her slave; Sūrya's lovely dress was adorned by Gātha.”

    “Citti (mind) was the pillow, the eye was the collyrium; heaven and earth were the box [kosa] when Sūrya went to her husband.”

    “Mind was her chariot, and heaven was the covering, the two shining (orbs) were the oxen when Sūrya went to (her husband's) dwelling.”

    “Those two oxen yoked by the Ṛk and the Sāman march equally; the two wheels were your ears; the moving path (was) in heaven.”

    Vāyu was the fastened axle, Sūrya mounted the chariot of the Mind, going to her lord.

    “Sūrya's bridal procession which Savitā despatched has advanced; the oxen are whipped along inthe Magha (constellations); she is borne (to her husband's house) in the Arjunī (constellations).”

    “When, Aśvins, you came in your three-wheeled car soliciting the marriage of Sūrya, then all the gods, assented and Pūṣan (your) son chose (you as) his parents.”

    “I offer this adoration to Sūrya, to the gods, to Mitra and Varuṇa, (and to all those) who are considerate to created beings.”

    ...prepare the happy world of the immortals, your marriage procession to your husband...

    I worship Viśvāvasu with reverence and with hymns; seek for another maiden still dwelling in her father's house, decorated with ornaments; that is your portion.

    Viśvāvasu: a gandharva

    “Rise up from here, Viśvāvasu, we worship you with reverence; seek another maiden, one with large hips; leave the bride with her husband.”

    “I set you free from the noose of Varuṇa, wherewith the adorable Savitā had bound you; in the place of sacrifice in the world of good deeds I unite you, unharmed, with your husband.”

    Savitā employs Varuṇa to make bonds. The ṛca is recited when the bridegroom undoes the bride's girdle.

    nīlalohitam bhavati kṛtyāsaktir vy ajyate | edhante asyā jñātayaḥ patir bandheṣu badhyate ||

    “Blue and red is (her form); devoted (to her) is left behind; her kinsmen prosper, the husband is bound in bonds.”

    Closely unite thy body with this; man, thy lord. So shall ye, full of years, address your company.
    Her hue is blue and red: the fiend who clingeth close is driven off.

    “Put away the garment soiled by the body; give wealth to the Brāhmaṇas; this Kṛtyā having become endowed with feet, enters the husband's heart as his wife.”

    “The (bridegroom's) body is lacking in beauty; shining with this wicked (Kṛtyā), when he wishes to clothe his own limbs with his wife's garments.”

    “Behold the forms of Sūrya, the āśasana (bordercloth) the viśasana (headcloth), the adhivikartana(divided skirt); of these the Brāhmaṇa relieves her.”

    “Pūṣan, inspire her who is most auspicious, in whom men may now seed, who most affectionate may be devoted to us, and in whom animated by desire we may beget progeny.”

    “Soma first obtained the bride; the Gandharva obtained her next. Agni was your third husband; your fourth (husband) is born of man.”

    Gandharva: the Sun

    Saci triumphs over rival wives, we have seen this before.

    my husband must conform to my will

    “Triumphant, I conquered these my rivals so that I might rule this hero and his people.”

    Sarama returns in X.107. It says this is written by:

    divya dakṣiṇā vā prājāpatyā

    but the translation does not match the text; it copies the Sarama we just posted. The alternate listing for X.107 is something else entirely.

    X.72 is by:

    bṛhaspatirbṛhaspatirvā laukya aditirvā dākṣāyaṇī

    Based on this parable:

    Dakṣa was born from Aditi, and afterwards Aditi from Dakṣa.

    Eight sons (there were) of Āditya who were born from her body; she approached the gods with seven, she sent forth Mārtāṇḍa on high

    And seems to confirm that the small group of Adityas was not full manifestation:

    “With seven sons Aditi went to a former generation, but she bore Mārtāṇḍa for the birth and death(of human beings).”

    X.127 appears to be a pen name:

    kuśikaḥ saubharo, rātrirvā bhāradvājī

    Sayana says for X.28:

    Legend: Indra came in disguise to a sacrifice celebrated by Vasukra, whose wife, not recognizing him, prayed for his presence; to satisfy her that he had actually come, the following dialogue occurs.

    Sraddha certainly mentions this conflict:

    As the gods had faith in (their fight with) the Asuras

    From them, you get a socio-personal ethos, and a yoga view of Soma. And there was something weird in a marriage. There was a conversation with Indra and Indrani. It was a paradox or moebius strip. This is the Sage and tone of rhetoric for X.86:

    vṛṣākapiraindra indrāṇīndraśca

    Indrāṇī speaks:...

    ...Indra is above all (the world).



    sharp-horned bull

    vṛṣabho na tigmaśṛṅgo

    (or: pointed)

    The weird revolving thing has been analyzed by someone in terms of a rebellion or power change with a less prudish translation of Indrani:

    ná mát strī́ subhasáttarā ná suyā́śutarā bhuvat |

    ná mát práticyavīyasī ná sákthy údyamīyasī víśvasmād índra úttaraḥ ||10.86.06||

    “No woman would have a better behind than me, or would be better at sex than me. Or pressing closer or thrusting her thighs higher. I’ndra is superior to all.”

    Then the difficult phrasing about "impotence" is thought to mean having successfully wrestled the throne from the opponent. It could be this metaphor. But the actual male problem coincides with the preceding translation:

    rambate 'ntarā sakthyā

    the penis hangs between the thighs, i. e., it has no sexual activity.

    This is juxtaposed with:

    niṣeduṣo vijṛmbhate

    Nisedha "prevention" of the vagina:

    Vijṛmbhaṇa (विजृम्भण).—

    1) Gaping, yawning.

    2) Blossoming, budding, blowing, opening; वनेषु सायंतनमल्लिकानां विजृम्भ- णोद्गन्धिषु कुड्मलेषु (vaneṣu sāyaṃtanamallikānāṃ vijṛmbha- ṇodgandhiṣu kuḍmaleṣu) R.16.47.

    3) Exhibiting, displaying, unfolding.

    4) Expanding.

    5) Pastime, amorous sport.

    so it is saying the same thing, no activity of her.

    I don't know if that is really a political symbol. It is closer to what the people are really saying than anyone would write in the nineteenth century.


    Shikhandini Kasyapi IX.104

    Prsniyojäh IX.86.31-40

    The latter means Pavamana IX.86 is a joint project that includes Sikata Nivavari and Prsnaya Ajah. Followed by Three Kings as a composer.

    List by their subjects.

    List with verses:

    4.18 Aditi

    8.91 Apala atreyi

    9.104 Shikhandinyava Psarasau Kashyapan
    10.142 Jarita Sharngah

    Jarita may be "female singer, female bird", but otherwise this example is a normal Agni hymn.


    Kashyapa Rishi (Tarksya)

    Kashyapa Rishi had 21 wives including Vinata (Suparna), Kadru, Patangi and Yamini.

    10.184 Tvashta Garbhakarta

    10.142 Jarita Sharngah

    8.71 Suditirangirasah

    10.153 Indra Mataro

    in most cases they have complete names such as:

    Romasha Svanya, AangirasI Sarasvathi, Apala Athri


    Sulabha Maitreyi

    10 are accredited to Maitreyi

    (must be in the Upanishad)

    The Sama Veda adds Nodha, Akrishtabhasha, Sikatanivavari and Gaupayana.


    Lopamudra Vaidarbhi

    The above would be an adjustment to Tvastr X.184:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): tvaṣṭā garbhakarttā viṣṇurvā prājāpatyaḥ
    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): liṅgottāḥ (garbhārthāśīḥ)

    If understood as feminized, then she is invoking female Tvastr.

    That would mean Tvastri, or Vairocani.

    She also includes goddess Sinivali. This is a brief "womb artisanry" hymn.

    I am not yet going to claim that Tvastri is the real recipient of most of these hymns, but we have enountered the ambiguity.

    In terms of creation, no one could be saying that more than Yami Vaivasvati in X.X, such as "my womb".

    The authoress is only called "Yami" for Funeral X.154 where Sayana says:

    Those who offer Soma to their pitṛs are the students of the Sāmaveda, those who offer ghī are students of the yajurveda, and who offer honey are students of the Atharvaveda.

    IV.18 is by Vamadeva with:

    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): indrāditī

    in the dwelling of Tvaṣṭā Indra drank the costly Soma from the vessels of the offerers.

    It is a conversation; Aditi enters as Indra's Mother and scoffs at Indra interrupting the Soma or slaying Vrtra, that does not matter to her. Then she says:

    Indra and Viṣṇu, my friend (if you) purpose slaying Vṛtra exert your greatest prowess.

    So she does not reallt represent a female Sage there.

    VIII.71 does not clearly involve a woman although it finds this kind of person objectionable:


    X.153 is simply plural, a collective, "mothers of Indra", matara deva:

    Jamāyattu (ಜಮಾಯತ್ತು):—

    1) [noun] an administrative division of a state; a district.

    2) [noun] a division of an army; an organised body of soldiers.

    X.142 is unclear than anything other than a female singer is involved.

    Sikhandini is given as a co-author of IX.104, along with Parvata Narada; she is most likely "pea hen".

    It takes a few tries to figure out who is a regular person rather than a feminized potency.

    If we rewind to the first few women making a historical debut:

    5.28 Vishvavara Atreyi
    8.1 Sashvatyangirasi (one line to Asanga)
    8.91 Apala atreyi

    If the Veda resembles the Purana, at all, it is not unlikely those two Atreyis may be sisters, and, sisters of Dattatreya, who is not in the Veda. In this case, rather than a vast inflation, we will find mental creation truncated through the Vedic Sages into the Mahabharata in an incredibly compressed format from Brahmanda Purana on offspring of Atri:

    Datta is considered to be the eldest, Durvāsas was his younger brother. The youngest of all was a lady who expounded the Brahman.

    In this context the persons well-versed in the Purāṇas cite this verse.


    86. The following four (also) are remembered as belonging to the side (family) of Atris. They are of very great power.

    Kāśyapa, Nārada, Parvata and Arundhatī.

    87. These were the mental progeny (of Atri). Understand (the progeny) of Arundhatī.

    Nārada gave Arundhatī in marriage to Vasiṣṭha.

    91. Vasiṣṭha begot his son Śakti of Arundhatī. Śakti procreated his bosom-born son Parāśara of Adṛśyantī.

    92. The holy lord Kṛṣṇadvaipāyana was born of Kālī, by (her union) with Parāśara. From Dvaipāyana, Śuka, equipped with all good qualities was born of the Araṇī (the holy wooden stick used to produce fire by attrition).

    As to this marriage, see a hymn by a VasiSTha
    (VII.33.11) where UrvaSI is referred to as the
    mother of VasiSTha.


    Kīrtimatī. She was the mother of yogic power. She maintained all the holy rites. She was the wife of Anuha and mother of Brahmadatta.

    It is almost nonsensically kaleidoscopic. The Rg Veda apparently already relies on a Seven Sages myth without, I don't think, naming them, or, stating that any current authors were their incarnation.

    The chick with one line and Apala are mostly making personal statements, whereas in Book Five you already have a woman composing a fairly normal theological Agni.

    If we look at what Visvavara is physically handling:

    eti prācī viśvavārā namobhir devām̐ īḻānā haviṣā ghṛtācī ||

    Ghritaci may have the meaning of ghee, or the ladle it goes in; although it potentially is divinizable, like Juhu or Spoon would normally be anyone's name, or Pounding Stones, and so the line is fairly close to a self-identity for her.

    It may auto-suggest itself, if the Atris in the Purana are remotely accurate since from his beginning:

    I shall recount the family of Atri the third Prajāpati (among sages).

    74. He had ten beautiful wives who were very chaste. All those ten were the children of Bhadrāśva begot of Ghṛtācī the celestial damsel.

    There is also the epithet:

    Kapiñjalī (Taittirī bird) Ghṛtācī

    If the actual, historical Atris had any clue about this Puranic myth attributed to them, then you might think they would have something to say about Ghrtaci.

    Yajur Veda 15:

    18 This one on the left, Lord of uninterrupted riches; the leader of his host and his chieftain are Tarkshya and Arishtanemi, and Visvachi and Ghritachi his Apsarases.

    That says Kasyapa just got Atri's wife, or, one of them.

    In most views, she just keeps going:

    A beautiful apsara. She excelled at seducing sages and giving birth to their sons. Her ‘victims’ included Vyasa, Kushanabha, Bharadwaja and she had a prime position among apsaras.

    Vishwakarma had a daughter with her named Chitrangada.

    Puru and Bhrgu.


    Once Ghritachi, an apsara and Viswakarma have exchanged curses, because of which they both took birth as humans on the earth. Viswakarma as Brahmin and Ghritachi as a cowherd girl. Both together given birth to five sons who expanded the clan of professionals in Gold (kamsalis), wood (carpeters), Iron (blacksmiths), Stone (sculptors) and Bronze (bronzesmiths).

    Manu, Maya, Tweshta, Shilpi, and Devagya

    Nala and Neela construct Adam's Bridge in Ramayana.

    So far in Rig Veda I do not see "ghrtaci" deified, as Juhu for example. She is common for "ghee offering" but not found as an Apsaras.

    The Purana just said Kasyapa was a mental son of Atri, which actually does resemble the physical fact, in the sense of "spiritual son". Mentally, Kasyapa is supposed to be all creatures including man. It is like that in every Purana without exception, I think. The Veda strongly suggests he was elevated by Atri.

    Talageri did not notice the peculiar thing that is Kasyapa's only contribution to Book One:

    8. KASYAPAS (1 hymn, 1 verse): 99

    Again, that would be used in Durga Suktam. It shows the attribution to:

    kaśyapo marīciputraḥ

    They come in with Atris in Book Five.


    8. KaSyapas (11 verses): 44.1-9, 14-15
    11. Joint Atris and KaSyapas (3 verses): 44.10-12


    8. KASYAPAS (6 hymns, 74 verses): 27-31, 97


    8. KASYAPAS (36 hymns, 300 verses): 5-24, 53-60,
    63-64, 91-92, 99-100, 113-114


    8. KASYAPAS (3 hymns, 24 verses): 106, 136, 163

    That is, maybe, a little weighted towards Soma of Book Nine.

    In terms of sole authorship on Soma, it is more than anyone, twenty per cent more than Angirases. Not sure what to say about the "mixed" composition, although this is rather interesting:

    Joint ANgirases and VasiSThas
    (11 verses): 67.22-32
    Joint SaptaRSis (19 verses): 107. 8-26

    Talageri says IX.104-5 are by a Kanva.

    105 is just:


    who is in 104 "and/with":

    śikhaṇḍinyau vā kāśyapyāvapsarasau

    which may be calling her an Apsaras.

    To pick at random 100 for comparison, it is by:

    rebhasūnū kāśyapau

    which, now, we see Kashyapa in the gotra/descent of Rebha. So, you can usually tell how this works.

    Apsarases are considered a reference to Urvasi and Vasistha:

    “By the wisdom seated in the heart the Vasiṣṭhas traverse the hidden thousand branched world, and the Apsarasas sit down wearing the vesture spread out by Yama.”

    born, Brahmā, of the will of Urvaśī, after the seminal effusion

    “He, the sage, cognizant of both worlds, was the donor of thousands; he was verily donation; wearing the vesture spread spread by Yama, Vasiṣṭha was born of the Apsaras.”

    apsarasaḥ pari jajñe vasiṣṭhaḥ ||

    Vena to Vena X.123:

    “The pious, knowing his form, praised him, for they followed the city of the great deer; approaching him with sacrifice, they reached the flowing (water), for the sustainer of the waters knows the ambrosial (fluids).”

    “The Apsaras, smiling affectionately like a wife at her lover, cherishes him in the highest heaven; she wanders in the abodes of her beloved; he, Vena, being loved, sits, down on his golden wing.”

    Great deer: i.e., Vena, whose cry is the thunder;

    sustainer of the waters: gandharva

    vidad gandharvo amṛtāni nāma ||

    I could imagine IX.104 implies a Celestial Maiden in the Kasyapa line because:

    Rishi Kashyapa is said to have married thirteen daughters of Daksha. In companionship with his thirteen wives he fathered the Devas, Asuras, Nagas, Gandgarvas, Apsaras, flora, fauna and all of humanity. The Apsaras are said to be the daughters of Rishi Kashyapa and his wife Muni.

    Again, at least in popular symbolism, Kasyapa is the "nature/objective" half of what the progeny of Dharma is the subjective, senses and higher intellection and so forth. That summarizes all of existence except for Soma or the Moon, obviously more related to Time.

    As to why the author may be a Kanva, I am not sure, Parvata and Narada obviously have a suggestive tone. From a total list of composers, they are two separate people, both Kanvas.

    It is an unusual sequence in Book Nine by Trta and Dvitya Aptya, then Parvata, Narada, and Sikhandini.

    Book Ten begins with Trta, then Trisiras, and Yami Vaivasvati.

    These are identifiable names:

    VIII.27-31, Kasyapa Marica or Manu Vaivasvata.

    X.178 Pratardana Kashiraja

    Being a slight error, X.178 has:

    Tārk.sya: i.e.,suparṇa, the son of Tṛkṣa, commissioned by the gods to bring the Soma from heaven; cf. Nirukta 10.28

    Kasyapa, son of Trksa (?), does bear the most Soma of them all. Contribution of some families is only single digits. The Kasyapas outpace the Angirases. That's very adaptable compared to the idea of a single family trying to dictate their own contrivance. At the same time, there is no room to suggest that later families simply replaced the older. Like most of the hymns, the actual Vedic Gotras seem to display specific problems, and repair it or use Indra properly who does all the fixing.

    Tṛkṣa (तृक्ष).—Name of the sage Kāśyapa.

    Comment in I.89:

    Tārkṣya, son of Tṛkṣa is Garuḍa. He is Ariṣṭanemi, he who has unharmed or irresistible (aṛṣṭa) weapons (nemi, circumerference of a wheel). Ariṣṭanemi is a Prajāpati (Vāyu Purāṇa). Tārkṣya = Aruṇa, the personified dawn

    Tārkṣya (तार्क्ष्य).—A sage. He was a member of the court of Indra. He was known as Ariṣṭanemi also.

    Married four daughters of Dakṣa. These were Vinatā, Kadrū, Patangī, and Yāminī, who were mothers of birds, snakes, etc.

    a patronymic of Tṛkṣi, who is known from the Rigveda onwards as a descendant of Trasadasyu

    X.179 actually does have:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): pratardanaḥ kāśirājaḥ

    Cf. IX.96:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): pratardano daivodāsiḥ

    In Book Eight, the published Hymn 27 just says "Manu", but Talageri says:

    KASYAPAS (6 hymns, 74 verses): 27-31, 97

    Kasyapa Marica has I.99, IX.64, 93, and 113-4.

    It seems likely that Pratardana Kasiraja is the same as the author of Pavamana IX.96; Rg Veda inherently has Puranic and Ramayana Divodasa II:

    A King of the line of Pūru. Pratardana who was the son of the daughter of King Yayāti ruled the country after making Kāśī his capital. Pratardana’s mother was Mādhavī, Yayāti’s daughter, and father, Divodāsa.

    Name of a king of KāŚi (son of Divo-dāsa and author of [Ṛg-veda ix, 96])

    Qv. Paruchhepa Daivodasi, Book One.

    Sudas Paijavana of X.133 would probably then be Sudas II.

    Even if it is "Sudas II", all these other authors lack a "raja" title, so, I am guessing "Kasi" may not be a "country", but, again, symbolic, like Ayodhya. Its generic sense in the Veda is something like "grasp".

    So, Kasyapa Gotra appears to have been invited by Atri, but, on a personal level, is expressed differently:

    Mārīca (मारीच).—Kaśyapaprajāpati. Marīci was the father of Kaśyapa and so Kaśyapa was known as Mārīca also. (Sarga 46, Vālmīki Rāmāyaṇa).

    which does match the full credit in VIII.29:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): manurvaivasvataḥ kaśyapo vā mārīcaḥ

    Could this, perhaps, coincide with the inhabitation of Manali?

    At that point, you could legitimately say First Arya, and describe the birth of a new civilization, compiled there after the end of Book Ten by Veda Vyasa.

    "Marica" is not reflected around the Rg Veda. This aspect is out of nowhere.

    You have apparently the most influential family on Soma, who otherwise is barely known, who are staking their heritage on someone not known at all.

    Is this reconcilable, yes, with what is called the Late Atharva Veda Period:

    Quote The Caraka Samhita, the greatest of the works on medicine purports to be the final embodiment of Atreya’s teaching. Every chapter opens with the words ‘Thus spake the worshipful Atreya’.

    Agnivesha and other disciples are greatly attached to him and hold him in supreme veneration. He is the first systematic teacher of the science of medicine after it was brought from Indra and imparted to the noble galaxy of sages by Bharadvaja.

    The Caraka Samhita does not say explicitly that Atreya learnt the science from Bharadvaja, but it just mentions that Bharadvaja, having brought the sacred wisdom from Indra, imparted it to the sages Marici and others, among whom Atreya is one. We are then introduced to a situation wherein Atreya, the compassionate one, taught this holy science of life to his disciples for the ultimate benefit of all creatures. (Carakasaṃhitā Sūtrasthāna 1.30).

    In the Caraka Samhita, we find from various references that Marica (Mārīca), Kashyapa (Kāśyapa), Varyovida (Vāryovida), Marici (Marīci) and Kashyapa (Kaśyapa) were contemporaries of Atreya.

    Marica and Kashyapa are mentioned as Risis who attended the Himalayan conference in company with Atreya.

    Here Marici Kashypa (Mārīci Kaśyapa) is quoted by Atreya as the propounder of the theory that the spirit is unthinkable it is not the object of direct observation.

    These references in the Caraka indicate that Atreya. Marici Kashyapa, Varyovida, Nimi of Videha and Kankayana of Bahlika flourished at the same period. If we can fix up with certainty the date of any one of them, the dates of all others can be decided by the process of synchronism.
    Kasyapa Samhita is child care.

    I'm still not sure if anyone is aware of the problem in saying Manali might be the landing site of the surviving man of a universal deluge.

    It appears to be territory gained by the early Rg Vedic battles.

    It now appears to have been occupied by Atreya, Marici, and Kasyapa.

    In that sense, yes, Kasyapa could effectively be child of both.

    He calls himself Manu.

    Is this a distinguishing mark, yes:

    coming from the sun, relating to Yama or Manu

    so i. e., there is Manu Vaivasvata Kasyapa, and Yama Vaivasvati (Bhrgu).

    It is a Vedic epithet of the New Books as in X.14:

    yamaṃ vaivasvatam mano


    Worship with oblations from Yama, king (of the Pitṛs), son of Vivasvat

    Kasyapa says in IX.113:

    “Where Vivasvat's son is king, where the inner chamber of the sun (is), where these great waters (are), there make me immortal; flow, Indu, for Indra.”

    Soma flows from:

    Ārjikā; the country of the ṛjikās (also in VIII.7)

    “The daughter of Sūrya brought the vast Soma large as a rain-cloud; the gandharva seized upon it and placed the juice in the Soma; flow, Indu, for Indra.”

    Daughter of Sūrya: śraddhā vai sūryasya duhitā

    I think Kasyapa may have created a fusion name. "Vaivasvata" becomes frequent in the New Books, although it was not quite "new", it was not prominent. In most cases, the translators did not consider it a name. Among older references, there using Vivasvan:

    Generic in VI.8 with Vaisvanara.

    Disregarded in VII.9 along with a strand of known names.

    Found in III.34 after Carsani.

    Vivasvan in III.51 as an activity related to sadana.

    Seven Sages have few literary references, and nothing from the Vedas is included, considering the links are made by algorithms.

    Manu is replete in all books, but, more evidently a principle than a personal name. From what I have found, yes, it is attached as an antecedent of Nahusa and so forth, but otherwise, there is no legend of Manu Vaivasvata or anything that suggests, to me, anything more than a mental and subjective basis for the spiritual practice being developed. If it appears as something else, that does not seem evident among numerous examples:

    01.031.17a 12 manuṣvád agne aňgirasvád aňgiro

    01.052.08b 12 índra vṛtrám mánuṣe gātuyánn apáḥ

    01.059.04b 11 gíro hótā manuṣíyo ná dákṣaḥ

    01.080.16a 8 yā́m átharvā mánuṣ pitā́

    01.105.14a 8 sattó hótā manuṣvád ā́

    01.112.18c 12 yā́bhir mánuṃ šū́ram iṣā́ samā́vataṃ

    01.130.09f 12 sumnā́ni víšvā mánuṣeva turváṇir

    01.164.45d 11 turī́yaṃ vācó manuṣyā̀ vadanti

    02.002.05b 12 tám u havyáir mánuṣa ṛñjate girā́

    02.002.06d 12 ágne havyā́ mánuṣo deva vītáye

    01.139.09b 12 priyámedhaḥ káṇvo átrir mánur vidus

    02.010.01b 11 iḷás padé mánuṣā yát sámiddhaḥ

    03.002.01c 12 dvitā́ hótāram mánuṣaš ca vāgháto

    03.004.08b 11 íḷā deváir manuṣíyebhir agníḥ

    03.026.02c 12 bṛ́haspátim mánuṣo devátātaye

    05.021.01a 8 manuṣvát tvā ní dhīmahi

    05.029.01a 11 trí aryamā́ mánuṣo devátātā

    06.004.01a 11 yáthā hotar mánuṣo devátātā

    07.009.04a 11 īḷéniyo vo mánuṣo yugéṣu

    08.019.21a 8 ī́ḷe girā́ mánurhitaṃ

    08.027.07d 8 manuṣvád iddháagnayaḥ

    08.046.17e 12 višvámanuṣām marútām iyakṣasi

    08.049.08c 12 yébhir ápatyam mánuṣaḥ parī́yase

    06.010.02b 11 ágne agníbhir mánuṣa idhānáḥ

    08.063.01c 8 yásya dvā́rā mánuṣ pitā́

    10.063.06b 12 víšve devāso manuṣo yáti ṣṭhána

    10.065.04d 12 devā́ stavante mánuṣāya sūráyaḥ

    10.080.06b 11 agním mánuṣo náhuṣo ví jātā́ḥ

    10.098.08b 11 ārṣṭiṣeṇó manuṣíyaḥ samīdhé

    10.110.08b 11 íḷā manuṣvád ihá cetáyantī

    Kasyapa seems to have fused a common First Principle, if you will, with a little-used epithet of Surya.

    This is in conjunction with the medical aspect of Atharva Veda, said to be "Himalayan".

    After him, we seem to find kings that actually are the ones in Epic and Puranic lore, which, of course, add numerous stories to push "Manu Vaivasvata" to the pre-creation of the world, and, stretch out the descent of kings into unfathomable ages.

    All of that is physically compressed in the New Books themselves.

    I was wrong, the Rg Veda does also have its own use of Seven Sages, which of course are also crucial for the "dawn of time" thing.

    Saptarishis have three credits. IX.67 with Pavitra Angiras, IX.107, and Visvedeva X.137.

    The first is interpretive, including the term:

    The battle-axe: paraśuḥ = chedakaḥ pavamānaḥ, as if Soma were metaphorically called a battle-axe and implored to turn his edge against foes only

    Jamadagni is a partial composer of it, and Pavitra Vasistha, along with Bharadwaj, Kasyapa, Gotama, Viswamitra, Atri:

    “May the goat-borne Pūṣan in all his paths be our protector; may he bestow maidens on us.”

    So this may be the Veda naming Seven Sages. It does not quite seem to say "saptarishi".

    The last example is by:

    sapta ṛṣaya ekarcāḥ

    (eka-ṛca) n. a single verse

    Short--only a few verses about divine breath and the purging of sin--but they are listed for each verse.

    As a subject, Seven Sages appear in X.82:

    Mighty in mind and power is Visvakarman, Maker, Disposer, and most lofty Presence.
    Their offerings joy in rich juice where they value One, only One, beyond the Seven Rsis.

    X.109 on Bhima:

    Thus spake of her those Gods of old, Seven Rsis who sate them down to their austere devotion:
    Dire is a Brahman's wife led home by others: in the supremest heaven she plants confusion.


    Our fathers then were these, the Seven his, what time the son of Durgaha was captive.
    For her they gained by sacrifice Trasadasyu, a demi-god, like Indra, conquering foemen.

    This one is patently a legacy builder. Here it is in full for context.

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): trasadasyuḥ paurukutsyaḥ [trasadasyuḥ paurukutsya];
    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): ātmā;

    Quote “Twofold is my empire, that of the whole kṣatriya race, and all the immortals are ours; the gods associate me with the acts of Varuṇa; I rule over (those) of the proximate form of man.”

    “I am the king Varuṇa; on me (the gods) bestow those principal energies (that are) destructive of the asuras [asuryani]; (they) associate me with the worship of Varuṇa; I rule over (the nets) of the proximate form of man.”

    “I am Indra, I am Varuṇa, I am those two in greatness; (I am) the vast, profound, beautiful, heaven and earth; intelligent, I give Tvaṣṭā-like animation to all beings; I uphold earth and heaven].”

    “I have distributed the moisture-shedding waters; I have upheld the sky as the abode of the water; by the water I have become the preserver of the water, the son of Aditi, illustrating the threefold elementary space.”

    “Warriors well mounted, ardent for contest invoke me; selected (combatants invoke) me in battle; I, the affluent Indra, instigate the conflict, and, endowed with victorious prowess, I raise up the dust (in the battle).”

    “I have done all these (deeds); no one resists my divine, unsurpassed vigour; and when the Soma juices, when sacred songs, exhilarate me, then the unbounded heaven and earth are both alarmed.”

    “All beings recognize you (Varuṇa), and your, worshipper, address these (encomiums) to Varuṇa; you, Indra, are renowned as slaying Vṛtra; you have set the obstructed rivers free to flow.”

    “The seven ṛṣis were the protectors of this our (kingdom) when the son of Durgaha was in bonds; performing worship they obtained for (his queen) from the favour of Indra and Varuṇa, Trasadasyu, like Indra the slayer of foes, dwelling near the gods.”

    “The wife of Purukutsa propitiated you two, Indra and Varuṇa, with oblations and prostrations, and therefore you gave her the king Trasadasyu, the slayer of foes dwelling near the gods.”

    “May we, glorifying you both, be delighted by riches; may the gods be plural ased by oblations, the cows by pasture; and do you, Indra and Varuṇa, daily grant us that same cow, (riches) free from any imperfection.”

    Sayana says:

    Trasadasyu: Purukutsa, son of Durgaha, being a prisoner, his queen propitiated the seven ṛṣis to obtain a son who might take his father's place; they advised her to worship Indra and Varuṇa, in consequence of which Trasadasyu was born.

    She did? Why?? this appears to be the earliest point the Seven Sages are mentioned at all.

    The line does not say "protectors", it says "fathers", as per the first translation:

    asmākam atra pitaras ta āsan sapta ṛṣayo daurgahe badhyamāne | ta āyajanta trasadasyum asyā indraṃ na vṛtraturam ardhadevam ||

    "Fathers of the kingdom" by means of causing Trasadasyu to be born.

    Presumably, this was before Kasyapa, etc., were born, and because the limpid phrase here just says "fathers of it/that", then mostly the key word must be Pitrs.

    It may simply mean the court of Purukutsa. They haven't done much but suggest to the queen the normal thing for what is supposed to become a thriving system.

    That resoundingly matches the time frame for Book Four, if we think of Atri and Kasyapa being something like an explosion of this system rolling out.

    So if we suspend the Puranic myths, it is the site of Manu:

    The Manu Temple is located in old Manali, at a distance of three kilometers from the main market. The temple is one of the prime attractions in Manali and is believed to be the same place where sage Manu meditated after stepping on earth. This place has a distinct historical background that appeals to most of the people who visit Manali.

    Veda Vyasa:

    Vyas or Beas temple in Rohtang, Manali


    Rakshasha Hidimba and Bhima.

    In the Epics:

    Male Bhima slew male Hidimb.

    As we have found, eventually the area doubles in importance by making a shortcut of the Silk Road through Ladakh.

    The Rg Veda traces nothing to the beginning of time. It is almost certainly a Before and After Manali.

    It contains the nucleus of vaster lore in Kasyapa and a few late kings.

    One might consider the Old Books as the Age of Aries, which, in Sanskrit, would equate to Tvastr and the Aswins as Naksatras.

    The New Books as the Age of Manali, so to speak. Less physical, more of a cultural wave.

    The New Books might be relatively young, and, upon reflection, it is not necessary for the whole Rg Veda to have been compiled prior to the Syrian inscriptions. Only the vocabulary of Book Six is needed. That does not account for why Indian deities would be considered in equal stature to the middle eastern.

    This will take some review, it is a lot of information and slightly different from Talageri's investigation. To summarize, a woman has told us how Soma is thoroughly symbolic, and then, Kasyapa, the near Aquarius of Soma, is obviously very pivotal in an objective way.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Endless Beginning

    We are working under the view that several elements of western scriptures, such as the First Man and Great Flood/Noah, are not present in the Vedas; but India seems to have imported the ideas and worked them in to some Puranas.

    In the Rg Veda, prior humanity is said to have been going on for "ages and ages", and the "Vedic founder", Manu, is a myth or figurehead applied more or less to the grandfathers of the humans involved. He marks the beginning of Arya culture, not necessarily the Sanskrit language.

    We can find Manu worked in to the important lineage heads such as Sudas and Nahusa, which at a certain level, represent the alliance of Gangetic and Haryana kingdoms.

    Rather than a one-time setup, it seems the intent may be for this to recur more or less generationally. As a "scripture", the Veda may sound a little unusual because it encourages "new praise", and perhaps even new deities, but of course it is not inherently a "scripture" because it was not put in that format for a thousand years or so. At first, if you had to memorize fifty hymns, becoming a priest would not be such a big deal, but when it is up to multiple hundreds, this would be a different affair.

    It would be fine to accept a New Manu, if you understand this as the well of inspiration, and not if you think of it as a single, sacrosanct primeval man.

    We practically positively find this, in a way such that the Rg Veda Old Books and New Books are divided a bit like the Old and New Testaments, except in this case, the "new" is not overthrowing the "old", but, rather, ensuring that it continues.

    It was like flailing to pull out the ways in which Kasyapa is named. He is a devotee of Sage Marica, who is in the Atharva Veda; Kasyapa seems to be personally designated as Manu Vaivasvata. In this capacity, he most likely is the origin of all related legendry, and, in the same place, Manali, Vyasa will compile the Four Vedas, shortly after the events of Book Ten.

    As any possible way he might have been called "Vaivasvata", this author has no line of Adityas as precursor:

    Vivasvan Aditya X.13

    but does seem to have the descendants, Manu Vaivasvata (Kasyapa), and Yama and Yami Vaivasvata.

    Comparatively, no, this does not seem to linguistically correspond to "Manu of Nahusa", and there is no ostensible reason to select "vivasvan" out of any potential solar epithets. Atri and Kasyapa walk right in as sources for Atharva Veda, whereas most prior Rg Veda Sages are not known for doing this.

    The change that is taking place is also much like "Vedic knowledge and practice" emerging out of the close grip of the Priest and King, and moving into all the houses.

    To some extent, Rg Veda gives the myth of Manu and Seven Sages. It is not obvious what that may be, but we can find what is there.

    I realized that Book Four is *not* the beginning of Seven Sages, since they trace through Bharadwaj as the Vedic Sanskrit Vipra:

    1. A Brahman. 2. The Aśwattha tree.

    1. A poet, or singer of vedic hymns, Chr. 292, 11 and 3 = [Rigveda.] i. 85, 11; 86, 3.

    Vipra (विप्र).—[adjective] stirred inwardly, inspired, wise, learned, clever; [masculine] seer, poet, singer, priest, a Brahman.

    In his commentary to the Ṛgveda, Sāyaṇa considers vipraḥ to be a wise Brāhmaṇa (prājñaḥ brāhmaṇaḥ);again in the Taittirīya Saṃhitā, he explains the term [Vipra] as “the wise man who is skilled in the production of the juices (of herbs) and strengths”.

    Under this name, we can easily place additional references to Seven Sages in chronological order:

    06.022.02b 11 saptá víprāso abhí vājáyantaḥ

    03.007.07a 11 adhvaryúbhiḥ pañcábhiḥ saptá víprāḥ
    03.031.05b 11 prācā́hinvan mánasā saptá víprāḥ

    04.002.15a 11 ádhā mātúr uṣásaḥ saptá víprā

    05.043.01c 11 mahó rāyé bṛhatī́ḥ saptá vípro

    01.062.04a 11 sá suṣṭúbhā sá stubhā́ saptá vípraiḥ

    09.092.02d 11 úpem agmann ṛ́ṣayaḥ saptá víprāḥ

    As the first one, Bharadwaj says:

    “To him the seven sages, our ancient progenitors, performing the nine days' rite, were offerers of (sacrificial) food, celebrating with hymns the very strong (Indra), the humiliator of foes, the traverser of the heavens, the dweller in the clouds, whose commands are not to be disobeyed.”

    He calls the Seven Sages:

    pitaro navagvāḥ

    Navagva (नवग्व).—The Navagvas are a group of the Aṅgirases. In Ṛgveda, mention is made about them in several places.

    Such as in III.39:

    The faithful friends: the aṅgirasas; ten months' rite: navagvaḥ and daśagvaḥ

    “A friend, accompanied by the faithful friends who had celebrated the nine months rite, and tracking the cows upon their knees, and in like manner accompanied by those ten who had accomplished the ten months' rite, Indra made manifest the true (light of the sun) (theretofore) dweling in (the) darkness (of the cave).”

    Are they days, or moths, what is this rite, something is taken for granted by them which is unknown to us.

    These sages are doing something, which we can arrange in a similar treatment:

    06.006.03c 11 tuvimrakṣā́so diviyā́ návagvā
    06.022.02a 11 tám u naḥ pū́rve pitáro návagvāḥ

    03.039.05a 11 sákhā ha yátra sákhibhir návagvair

    04.051.04c 11 yénā návagve áňgire dášagve

    05.029.12a 11 návagvāsaḥ sutásomāsa índraṃ
    05.045.07b 11 ā́rcan yéna dáša māsó návagvāḥ
    05.045.11b 11 yáyā́taran dáša māsó návagvāḥ

    01.033.06b 11 áyātayanta kṣitáyo návagvāḥ
    01.062.04b 11 svaréṇa ádriṃ svaríyo návagvaiḥ

    09.108.04a 12 yénā návagvo dadhiáňň aporṇuté

    10.014.06a 11 áňgiraso naḥ pitáro návagvā
    10.061.10a 11 makṣū́ kanā́yāḥ sakhiyáṃ návagvā
    10.062.06c 12 návagvo nú dášagvo áňgirastamo
    10.108.08b 11 ayā́siyo áňgiraso návagvāḥ

    Fairly consistent beginning to end.

    For "ten" as well:

    03.039.05c 11 satyáṃ tád índro dašábhir dášagvaiḥ

    05.029.12b 11 dášagvāso abhí arcanti arkáiḥ

    01.062.04d 11 valáṃ ráveṇa darayo dášagvaiḥ

    08.001.09a 8 yé te sánti dašagvínaḥ
    08.012.02a 8 yénā dášagvam ádhriguṃ

    Sayana does most of the etymology the first time something comes in sequential order; for this, he says:

    Kṣitayaḥ navagvāḥ = men whose practices were commendable; the men may be the aṅgirasas offering libations to Indra for nine months

    He doesn't know who they are or what it is.

    They could have easily said "Navamasa" or any kind of symbolic metaphor to say "months" and they haven't. Let's help him out.

    In order for Gva to mean anything, it must be compared with:


    Divodāsa was a king; he is called atithigva, the cherisher of guests (atithi); Trasadasyu was the son of Purukutsa.

    So, the Navagva is itself nine cherishings or nine rites, or the cherishing of nine of something, but no time period is implied.

    There being two kinds of cherishings as in X.62:

    “Among those who have sprung from Agni in many forms, (and spring) from heaven, the chief Aṅgirasa, the celebrator of the nine-month rite, the celebrator of the ten-month rite, accompanied by the gods bestows (upon me wealth).”

    Without pulling up all the listings, the one that jumps out as paramount is IX.108:

    “(You) through whom Dadhyañc the offerer of the nine days' rites opened (the cave), through whom the ṛṣis recovered (the stolen cows), through whom under the protection of the gods the worshippers obtained the sustenance of the delicious (ambrosial water).”

    Whatever it is, Nine = Dadhyan = the practice of Seven Sages, his Pitrs, prior to Bharadwaj.

    V.45 somewhat clarifies it because it does say "month":

    anūnod atra hastayato adrir ārcan yena daśa māso navagvāḥ | ṛtaṃ yatī saramā gā avindad viśvāni satyāṅgirāś cakāra ||

    “At this sacrifice the stone (set in motion) by the hands (of the priests) makes a noise, whereby the nine-months ministrants celebrated the ten-months worship; when Saramā, going to the ceremony, discovered the cattle, and Aṅgiras rendered all the rites effective.”


    dhiyaṃ vo apsu dadhiṣe svarṣāṃ yayātaran daśa māso navagvāḥ | ayā dhiyā syāma devagopā ayā dhiyā tuturyāmāty aṃhaḥ ||

    “I offer to you, (gods), for the sake of water, an all-bestowing sacrifice, whereby the nine-months ministrants have completed the ten-months rite; may we, by this sacrifice, be the protected of the gods; may we, by this sacrifice, cross over the boundaries of sin.”

    Although it is saying Ten Months, Nine Gvas.

    The group of Ten may simply be those Navagvas who have successfully performed the practice for ten months.

    Dasagva in VIII.12:

    ...you have defended Adhrigu, the accomplisher of the ten (months rite)

    This is at least an epithet from VI.45. Kutsa makes it a personal name in I.112. Same in VIII.22. Sayana says:

    Adhrigū = adhṛtagamanau, whose going is unwithheld

    but we see him related to Gvas, not months.

    Navagva is blended with Manu as an operative principle in V.29:

    “In the adoration of the gods by Manu there are three effulgences, and they, (the Maruts), uphold three luminaries in heaven; the Maruts of pure energy worship you, for you, Indra, are their intelligent ṛṣi”

    ...filled (Vṛtra), like a deer, with terror, stripping off his covering, Indra, slew the Dānava...

    Indra, for the destruction of Vṛtra, has at once quaffed vessels of Soma, offered by Manu.

    Indra, you and Uśanas


    navagvāsaḥ sutasomāsa indraṃ daśagvāso abhy arcanty arkaiḥ | gavyaṃ cid ūrvam apidhānavantaṃ taṃ cin naraḥ śaśamānā apa vran ||

    “The observers of the nine month's celebration, those of the ten months, pouring out libations, worship Indra with hymns; the leaders (of rites), glorifying him, have set open the cave (concealing the cattle).”

    Again, none of it says months, masa.

    This eldritch thing is finally welded into Book Ten as if the industry standard.

    If we are not sure how ten is an upgrade, we see that Nine is actually the wisdom of Dadhyan. This is also indicated merely by name in the first book; Dadhyan occurs there, and, obviously, it is this which is the practice of the inscrutably archaic Seven Sages.

    Those ideas do sound a bit like pregnancy terms, nine or ten months.

    This very thing is Aurobindo's theology on Angirases. He strongly gives it the interpretation "Rays", i. e. navagva = new rays. Yes, "nine" and "new" may appear to be the same word, so it is only nine because of the suggestion of being followed by "ten". But it is only "ten" that is definitely called "months". Then you get a glaring lack of any real idea what it is, no matter what those titles mean.

    Sri Aurobindo says:

    Quote ...they are also brought before us as heavenly seers, sons of the gods, sons of heaven and heroes or powers of the Asura, the mighty Lord, divas putrāso asurasya vīrāḥ (III.53.7), an expression which, their number being seven, reminds us strongly, though perhaps only fortuitously, of the seven Angels of Ahura Mazda in the kindred Iranian mythology. Moreover there are passages in which they seem to become purely symbolical, powers and sons of Agni the original Angiras, forces of the symbolic Light and Flame, and even to coalesce into a single seven-mouthed Angiras with his nine and his ten rays of the Light, navagve aṅgire daśagve saptāsye, on and by whom the Dawn breaks out with all her joy and opulence. And yet all these three presentations seem to be of the same Angirases, their characteristics and their action being otherwise identical.


    Quote a~Ngiras-es are remembered as first institute the fire ritual:

    vipram padam a~Ngiraso dadhAnA yaj~nasya dhAma prathamam mananta ||

    These ancient a~Ngiras ritualist
    clans who founded the yaj~na were known by the mysterious terms navagva & dashagva...

    He did just use Asura as the One Power.

    Translators outfit the same line as "heroic destroyer of asuras", but I, at least, get the sense that Aurobindo is using here.

    From an Encyclopedia, Navagvas as Pressing Stones and Rays (V.45 and VI.6)

    Dasagvas are "the first" in II.34. reach the sun in III.36, has seven mouths in IV.51.

    Seven Hotrs with Manu X.63

    Atharvan and Vaivasvat X.21

    Article mentions most references to Atharvan and Dadhyan.

    Tilak writes on this at considerable length. Same information but unfortunately he decides ten months *must* mean the Sages lived in the Arctic.

    IX.108 on one page

    Also thought of as "heads" in the context of Ravana.

    From a linguistic study of part of Book Nine:

    Although pāda a treats the mythological past—the opening of the Vala
    cave (Navagva) and Dadhyañc’s presumably similar exploit (see his connection with
    cow pens in X.48.2)—the verb is present tense aporṇuté.


    Occurs in several passages of the Rigveda as a man, an Añgiras in the highest degree (Angirastama), appar­ently being the type of the Navagvas, who appear as a mystic race of olden times, coupled with, and conceived probably as related to, the Añgirases. They are often associated with the Daśagvas.

    Also Virupa in X.62.

    Apparently anyone who has studied this is well aware of the absentee theocracy.

    Inconclusive as to who or what is happening, but aware of Dadhyan.

    Nothing relates them to the stars of the great bear, or, a wild bear for some reason (as in Satapatha Brahmana), it is an outburst of Angirases before and during the Veda.

    Scholars have been puzzled about this since the first translations.

    To me, it makes perfect sense.

    Any type of "pre-Vedic Manu and Seven Sages era" has one characteristic, a practice of Dadhyan. In the original Book Six of Rg Veda, Dadhyan is already present as if understood by the listener.

    All the Rg Veda books are shaped by Tvastr.

    Practices that do not refer to them nevertheless use Amrita--Immortality as a staple ingredient.

    Anything else is speculative.

    You do not know if "dasagva" is another, different rite besides that of Dadhyan, while the context is more that it is a continuity or accomplishment of the same.

    Further, from the view of Buddhism, this is why I would suggest the goal is Tvastr Shakti, rather than the approximation, Indra Shakti, that Aurobindo and Frawley leave off at. Moreover, this could be considered as compiled into goddess Cinnamasta, who is very similar in Hinduism and Buddhism, with these select and specific differences.

    We can ponder on our own what is the "asura" from an Atreya in III.53:

    ime bhojā aṅgiraso virūpā divas putrāso asurasya vīrāḥ | viśvāmitrāya dadato maghāni sahasrasāve pra tiranta āyuḥ ||

    “These (sacrificers) are the Bhojas, of whom the diversified Aṅgirasas (are the priests); and the heroic sons of the expeller (of the foes of the gods) from heaven, bestowing riches upon Viśvāmitra at the sacrifice of a thousand (victims), prolong (his) life.”

    Sayana says:

    These sacrificers are the Bhojas: ime bhojā aṅgiraso virūpā: bhojā = kṣatriya descendants of Sudās, sudāsaḥ kṣatriya, yāgam kurvāṇaḥ, instituting the sacrifice at which the latter, Medhātithi, and the rest of the race of aṅgiras were their yājakas, or officiating priests; the expeller: rudra, his sons are the maruts; sacrifice of a thousand victims: sahasrasave = the aśvamedha

    Seems to be Angiras Virupa, the divine son heroically wielding Asura power, of course not if you think this is impossible.

    As "Seven Sages", I will more carefully copy the authors in order from IX.67:








    with ending verses by:

    pavitro vasiṣṭho vobhauḥ vā

    "Filtered Vasistha".

    If nothing else, here, we see that Honey drips from Purified Soma.

    There are different vocabularies here internally, i. e. "pressed by stones" = adribhir (Bharadwaj), or gravna (Atri).

    So I am not sure if this is a compilation of quotes, or, new stuff.

    However, it is relatively easy to negatively exclude Bharadvaja, his lines do not appear in Book Six. In fact, they are somewhat reminiscent of Vajrasattva Mantra in its first part where we give him the commands, Drdho, Sutushyo, Suposhyo, which is similar to what he tells Soma.

    tvaṃ somāsi dhārayur mandra

    tvaṃ suto nṛmādano

    tvaṃ suṣvāṇo adribhir

    Kasyapa frequently refers to Soma as Indu, which probably has acquired a double meaning as the Indus River.

    It may have been the "river of Indra", of various tribes or sects, who were not doing it the way Kasyapa promotes.

    Other than placing Bharadwaj first, this hymn has not attempted to go in chronological order.

    Jamadagni Bhargava is a contemporary/co-author with Viswamitra Gathina; the co-author of X.110, Rama Jamadagni, is considered to be his son, Parasurama. Note that in the Seven Sages hymn, the battleaxe, parasu, is Soma.

    Bharadwaj uses it as a metaphor for the Tongue of Agni:

    ...darting forth his tongue like a hatchet, and burning timber to ashes, like a goldsmith who fuses (metal).

    Tvastr's axe is:


    Su + ayas = "good metal", and, our late date issue depends on whether "Aya" may or may not be iron in the Rg Veda. It could go either way.

    So the parasu is always a weapon or tool, until VIII.6:

    śatam ahaṃ tirindire sahasram parśāv ā dade | rādhāṃsi yādvānām ||

    “I have accepted from Tirindira, the son of Paraśu, hundreds and thousands of the treasures of meṇ”

    Yādvānām, from yadu = a synonym of manuṣya, yādava eva yādvāḥ; or, yadukulajānām, of those born of the race of Yadu, who have been despoiled by Tirindira; or, "I among men have accepteḍ.."

    Only place this "son of Parasu" appears.

    What's this?

    Name of a woman, [Ṛg-veda x, 86, 23.]

    We began studying X.86 without noticing:

    “The daughter of Manu, Parśu by name, bore twenty children at once; may good fortune, O arrow of Indra, befall her whose belly was so prolific; Indra is above all (the world).”

    Someone would try to tell us she's the Persians, but, it is a standard equivalent for "axe" and also "rib".

    Going on about Soma, Ferreira 2019 is not fully posted but based on this idea:

    Quote This work attempts to do this by postulating a connection between Soma the bull and the Harappan horned-figure; this connection is suggested by utilizing iconographical, archaeological and textual evidence. There is reference to Thomas McEvilley's hypothesis of a sexo-yogic fertility ritual in the Indus Valley, and an argument is provided to support it by arguing for Soma's association with sex, semen, and immortality. Again, this is done by using archaeological evidence and reconciling it with textual evidence that portrays the connections between Soma, the bull, fertility, seminal retention, and sexual drive. Lastly, by observing and analyzing South Asian Sanskrit sources dating from roughly 1500 BCE-1500 CE, the theory is put forward that Soma and its association with semen, fertility, immortality, and seminal retention has survived since the time of the Harappans and has influenced Tantric ritual since the eighth century CE.

    We know it cannot fully bear out to reduce Soma to a Psychedelic Mushroom:



    Quote The revelation of the Divine Mushroom theme in the terracotta models of the Harappan development gives an astonishing hint into the genuine idea and character of the Harappan progress per se. The Harrapans knew Soma, an archetypically Rig Vedic idea, and addressed it in their speciality and symbolism. This scores up one more striking similitude between the supposed Indus Valley custom and the Rig Vedic culture. In the arrangement of outlines underneath, the Soma mushroom is displayed as a crown around the head of a female goddess of ripeness. The female richness goddess. from Mohenjo-Daro with Soma mushrooms exhibited about her head.

    The presence of this heavenly mushroom in the imperial headdress of a richness goddess figure from Harappa is a huge pointer maybe to the actual character of the Harappan individuals.

    This exceptionally huge hint about Soma gives a reasonable sign that the Harappan progress was maybe similar to the Rig Vedic Aryan development. The Aryans along these lines were not attackers/transients from Central Asia. The Indus-Sarasvati tracts were possibly the centre region and the unique home of the Indo-Aryans. It was the eco-fiasco of the drying out of the Sarasvati that constrained portions of these unique Aryans to relocate out to Afghanistan, Central Asia, Southern Russia, Eastern Europe and even the Middle East.

    Kalyanaraman denies it is a drink at all, because it is a metallurgical metaphor. To begin with, he uses a few lines from the piece I quoted at great length where a woman explains Soma is symbolic. She was there, she was the Rishi, not him, so we should rely on the hymn itself. He is impressed enough that Tvastr is a dominant deity that he has posted every line and hymn on one page. Might be good for a resource. Reading everything in its linear sequence is much more difficult.

    Both of those at least deny Aryan Invasion, but stick to their own conclusions, i. e. Soma is an entheogen, or metal.

    Before posting the many Tvastrs, he suggests the following for "writing":

    A synonym of 'visible language' is 'incised speech' takshatvAk, (a metaphor used in what is possibly the oldest human document, the Rgveda.

    Forms of taksa- may mean carve, fashion, etc., which is ordinarily clear in VI.32.

    It is not clear from his example IX.97, apparently in relation to mental speech, yet he says:

    T. P. Verma seems to be quite justified in taking ‘takshat vAk’ (in Rigveda 9.97.22) to stand for incised writing.

    The phrase is not actually in this line, nor evident from what passes for translations:

    takṣad yadī manaso venato vāg jyeṣṭhasya vā dharmaṇi kṣor anīke |

    What time the loving spirit's word had formed him Chief of all food, by statute of the Highest,

    When the praise of the zealous worshipper sanctifies him as that of a noisy (crowd) in front (praises) a distinguished (prince) for the support (he affords)...

    The "fashioning" of Book Six also appears to be done vocally.

    Both these citations appear to reverse the "writing" interpretation.

    Another paper from Kosambi 1956:

    Quote There is an old craftsman-god
    Tvastr, unknown outside India, who appears at times as the creator,
    a concept which was not needed in primitive times when what was
    manufactured was of far less importance to man than what came from the
    fertile mother-goddess, the earth. I have shown elsewhere
    that this
    craftsman-god was adopted from the pre- Aryans, presumably along
    with their craftsmen.

    Perhaps the most important of these common myths which may
    be collated with the seals is that of India’s decapitation of the threeheaded son of Tavstr. The feat is described in RV. 10.8 by the ‘ son’
    himself, though he is supposed to have been killed. This son Tvastra
    appears, nevertheless, as one of the earliest UpaniSadic teachers. His ‘
    killing’ left an indelible mark upon brahmin myth, as the first case of
    a king’s decapitation of his own fire-priest, a dangerous precedent.
    The three heads became three varieties of partridges, of which at least
    two have left brahmin clgn-names behind them. This legend
    gains in
    significance with the discovery of a three-faced god on Indus seals (fig.
    18) ;

    means he is not talking about the Chimera, he thinks the main "Shiva--Pasupati" seal is Viswakarman. In light of which he continues:

    Quote The chariot of the specially benign Nasatyas is drawn by
    asses, which has a foreign pre-Aryan flavour

    A calendar (whose importance will be
    brought out later) first developed.

    The caste tension between priest and king (expressed by the Tvastra
    legend) also belongs to this period.

    The foodproducer’s year is solar, which requires constant adjustment of the
    lunar months. The urgent need for a working almanac lay at the root
    of astronomy, algebra, the theory of numbers, all of which were
    conspicuous Indian (specifically brahmin) achievements. The season
    could then be foretold even when the sun and the moon obliterated
    their starry background, or were invisible because of clouds.

    It is comic to read long,
    meaningless arguments today about a certain king being ‘Hindu’ or
    Buddhist when Harsa, for example, could not have understood the
    meaning of the word Hindu, and found no difficulty in dedicating a
    Buddhist play like the Nagananda to the goddess Gauri.

    Iconographically, the deity is called Tri-siras, not Tri-mukha or "three faces" which would describe the seal.

    But, yes, working in the solar calendar seems to be a riddle of the age.

    According to Dark Skies after telling us Seven Pleiades were visible 100,000 years ago:

    Quote The horned motif is intricately linked to lunar veneration, fertility, and harvest
    and may have been older than the Indus tradition. Pre-Harappan pieces of pottery from the site of Kot Dijian also depict a horned head. Both horns are marked
    with white paint marks corresponding to the lunar count, with the size of marks
    decreasing from the bottom to the tip to signify the phases of the moon.

    And it gives us the reminder that lunations/a month is approximately a menstrual cycle, which is why "fertility" may be tracked this way.

    Those articles prove nothing, and, if you can't find Shiva in the Vedas, it is disingenuous to push it back to IVC.

    A Soma Filter that includes Tiger hair may be among the more direct connections, as the Veda does almost nothing with tigers and has almost dropped this IVC figure as if it were taboo.

    The Object from IVC may very well be this filter. It may have been a standard brewing device, which the Aryas saw as being used in an unholy manner, and re-directed the idea of the thing.

    All of this "proto" stuff cannot be "tantric", because you cannot have tantra until you have mantra. If I don't know the mantra for Harappan Figurine, she is useless. But then the Rg Veda is only made of mantras. And it uses visualized mental deities. So it already begins as Dhyana, or perhaps even Kriya Tantra or Kriya--Charya. Plus, it adds rising through Three Worlds into Parama Vyoma and descending back, which, actually is the same framework as in our most advanced Buddhist Tantras.

    Moreover, Rg Veda and Buddhism share this goal, to come back from the Void with Wisdom to provide Benefits.

    Most other Yogas go to the Void with the intent of releasing from manifestation altogether.

    The Veda talks about Immortality and liberation from sin. One can do that while reincarnating. We would call it the Bodhisattva Path.

    Coming from the view that I have a lot of experience in Void and with Shakti, it is easy for me to understand those yoga teachers who must have had a difficult time expressing it to other people. These are not philosophical ideas, they are physiological facts in the human body, which remain hidden until doing those practices based on a belief in life force.

    No wonder that giving certain objective explanations is always fraught with inconsistencies.

    As what I would call the subjective side, one of the main parts of Tvastr's work, Amaravati, is approximately the same in all Dharma:

    Amaravati (Sanskrit: अमरावती, romanized: Amarāvatī, lit. 'city of the immortals') is the capital city of Svarga, the realm of Indra, the king of the devas, in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism.

    This part may be a little confused:

    In Hindu tradition, Amaravati was built by Vishvakarma, the architect of the devas, a son of Brahma, but sometimes also depicted as a son of Kashyapa.

    As it is in Skanda Purana:

    Once, for the sake of progeny (subjects) the excellent sage Kaśyapa, the son of Marīci, as instructed by Brahmā, performed a very severe penance, very difficult to be performed, in the beautiful Mahākālavana of divine features.

    There is an encounter with Formless Vak Devi, and then:

    Quote Ever since then, O Vyāsa, Kaśyapa resorted to the excellent city Kuśasthalī along with the daughter of Dakṣa, maintaining the holy fires. His progeny including the Devas, Asuras and human beings also flourished.

    12. Kaśyapa was born of Marīci and all are established henceforth (from him).

    18. The human beings stationed here had all those powers of the soul. Their diet and activities, their features and exploits were the same as those of the Devas.

    19. They roam about like the immortal beings in this city. The people of the earth were on a par with the Amaras mingling with one another.

    20. The women were always on a par with the celestial ladies in permanent youth. O Vyāsa, such an eternal city was seen on the earth.

    21. Inhabited by Devas, Dānavas and Gandharvas, Kinnaras, Uragas and Rākṣasas, this city is eternal, the bestower of worldly pleasures and salvation and perpetual benefit lasting for a long time.

    22-24. There is the permanent camp of Amaras here.

    Hence it became Amarāvatī.

    This place may not have stayed around:

    The Mahabharat and the Puranas often refer to Kushasthali or Dwaraka as the capital of Anarta or Anartadesha (Kośala, Vāyu-purāṇa.).

    It was emperor Revata, son of Ānarta, the grandson of Vaivasvata Manu, who first built a city in Kuśasthalī and ruled the country. Their genealogy; Descended from Viṣṇu thus: Brahmā—Marīci—Kaśyapa —Vivasvān—Vaivasvata Manu—Śaryāti (Śayyāti)-Ānarta—Revata. Certain Purāṇas state that it was Ānarta, who first built forts at Kuśasthalī. It would not be incorrect to say that Ānarta built forts in this city first founded by his son Revata. The city was sunk in the sea after a few years. Afterwards the region remained as a forest for long years. It was later on that Śrī Kṛṣṇa built Dvārakā there.

    (Devī Bhāgavata, 7th Skandha)

    Comparable once to Amarāvatī, disappeared; and in its place came Dvārakā; finding Kakudmi, its king not returning from brahmaloka, Rākṣasas like Puṇyajanas entered it and his 99 brothers fled to different directions in fear, and established small kingdoms there.

    The suffix sthala or sthalī is significant: it suggests a high-lying country, an eminence, tableland, or dry-land as opposed to a damp low-land.

    Only to be reborn.

    In Buddhism, Amaravati cannot be given any higher accolades historically:

    Amaravati - Also called Amara. A city in the time of Dipankara Buddha.

    Amaravati - A city in the time of Kondanna Buddha eighteen leagues in extent. It was in the Devavana, near the city, that Kondanna preached his first sermon (v.l. Arundhavati). BuA.108-9.

    Although that probably was subjective or symbolic, because we are fairly certain the idea was transplanted to Orissa ca. 300 B. C. E.:

    Amarāvatī (अमरावती) is a relatively recent name for this site and its environs. The ancient name, Dhānyakaṭaka and its variant Dharanikoṭa, appears in numerous inscriptions. Perhaps the earliest reference to Dhānyakaṭaka appears on a pillar with several narratives, now in the Amarāvatī Site Museum. Along with several episodes from the life of the Buddha, the pillar in question, dated to the first century BCE, includes a depiction of a village scene and a river, which is labeled “Dhamnakada.”

    Amaravatī (अमरवती) was a great centre of Buddhism. An inscription from Amaravati, dated Ś. 1102, states that “there isa city named Dhānyakaṭaka..., where god Buddha, worshipped by the creator, is quite close, (and) where (there is) a very lofty Caitya, well decorated with various sculptures”. The great Caitya, mentioned here, seems to be identical with the famous Amaravatī-stupa.

    It is stated that the Buddha in one of his previous births as a Brahmin youth named Sumedha was born in that city. It is identical with modern city of Amaraoti close to the rivers of Dharanikotta (a mile west of ancient Amarāvatī on the Kriṣṇa famous for its ruined stūpa).

    Amaravati was during the Satavahana dynasty (200 BC) an important region where now artificats (metal images) have been found.—The Satavahanas who ruled in the Deccan and the South had a long reign of about 400 years (circa 200 BC to AD 200). The fine workmanship of the carvers reveals the high standard of efficiency of these craftsmen. The metal images found at Buddham, Amaravati, Kolhapur show the high watermark of metal work in the Satavahana period. The Ikshvakus succeeded the Satavahanas towards the end of the 2nd century AD and they were great patrons of art. The metal work of their period was equally good as their stone carving.

    Or, the site is far south enough to be in modern AP:

    After the decline of Satavahanas, Andhra Ikshvakus and later Pallava kings ruled Krishna river valley.

    It was still mentioned in Sri Lanka and Tibet as a centre of Esoteric Buddhism as late as the 14th century.

    From what I can tell, Taranatha was still able to get a sadhana of tantric goddess Mamaki from there in the 1500s, or, possibly from Tamil Nadu or Lanka, but somewhere around this area of south India.

    In folklore, the Tamil language was given by Sage Agastya, which Buddhists say was Avalokiteshvara.

    The historical Agastya would have been enveloped within the Sanskrit epoch, so, I am not sure this is literally true, if both languages are related and pre-date the Vedas.

    That was doubly helpful, because now it makes more sense:

    Kasyapa -- Dwarka I

    Krishna -- Dwarka II

    It was "land reclaimed from the sea", ca. 1,000 B. C. E., and yet even after whatever happened to Krishna, there was a Dwarka III possibly up to the 1500s.

    From what I can tell, the archaeology would support a Vedic Kasyapa founding the first Dwarka by around 1,300 B. C. E.

    Losing the second one, which must have taken more energy to set up, would be particularly infuriating. After that it seems to have been abandoned or sunken until much later, i. e. not before Buddhist Amaravati on the east coast.

    If we juggle the lineage names a little bit, since Vivasvan and Vaivasvata Manu are probably more in a triangle than a long line, then, the early settler, Anarta, might be the near equivalent of a grandson of Kasyapa. So, it would be getting close to the end of material that is accepted into the Rg Veda.

    My guess would be that is a big part of the real objective picture, that Kasyapa was involved with the transmission of the "system of Manali" to an erstwhile Amaravati on Dwarka.

    It may have been attractive with an ideal, mesa-type formation, which turned out to be vulnerable to monsoons or earthquakes.

    Despite that, the gap in the archaeology is relatively small, suggesting that whatever Krishna did was within about ~200 years of the first disaster.

    Now, having realized that the Late Rg Veda actually *is* entangled with the knotwork of the Puranas, it would be nice if this had a ready-made answer. It does not.

    Referring to a previously-cited work, the Purana Samhita project is decent, because it points out some common problems, such as Pancala and Iksvaku are both five contemporary dynasties, not one long one.

    He thinks the Carakardhvarus of Krsna Yajur Veda pre-date the Rg Veda.

    It is possible some Atharva Veda does as well.

    The fatal flaw however is that he denies any special status to the Rg Veda, its seeers were normal mortal poets. The word of the Purana is superior because more objective, and, older.

    I don't think he has quite gotten the Puranic style which is to repeat things in more detail.

    Firstly, he follows the degrees of creation as:

    Naimisiya Rishis and King Pururavas

    Naimiṣīya (नैमिषीय).—An inhabitant of the forest, called Naimiṣa



    on Earth, man's three prehistoric ages:

    Nothing, Honey and Huts, Tribes.

    And now our fourth age or Kali.

    Then he gives fourteen dynasties which he calls "actual history" which are really the subjective creation from Akuti to Daksa.

    That is the whole point of the Purana, to attempt to teach this subjectively, and instead he uses it as a record back to 4,000 B. C. E.; but even after this series is "mental creation related to our planet", such as:

    Dhruva, Vena, and Prthu

    He mentions the essentially twin streams of Dharma and Kasyapa.

    Not their significance, but at least you see them. No, the theoretical Kasyapa, mind-born sage who produces nature is not the Rg Vedic author, Kasyapa. Whether that name would even be possible before he used it, is unlikely.

    The Veda is really just going to wave a magic wand and not care about the thousands or millions of years from the first human being to now. And so we will find the turning point, not to the "first human beings", but to the first Rg Veda characters, with:

    Vaivasvata and Ikshvakas, Ida and Ailas

    Then he basically thinks the Purana ends at this stage of the Vedic founding father:

    Srnjaya...c. 2200-1900

    He has actually captured the mythic background inspirational to the Veda, and none of the historic events that may have happened after it.

    If one takes the Veda as a scriptural authority, then yes, his vision mostly works in terms of the subjective, not the "actual history" as he thinks. He stops where it starts.

    Nimi and King Yalambar of the Kirats probably do qualify as historic people tied to the Vedic period or close.

    This study found that the Brahmanda and Vayu Puranas appear to be the least redacted and probably closer to "the Puranic Ur-text".

    I, personally, found them to be more explanatory, meaning the others are not really necessary, except those that exalt Devi and for that reason. It is like putting Purusha and Devi Suktam together, a handful of male and female Puranas is enough. The Skanda Purana is good as a late "net" to catch a few things that might not be in the older ones.

    When looking at the Seven Sages and finding the net result to be Purified Vasistha, that already calls to mind the medieval text:

    Yoga Vasistha Maha Ramayana

    which is, perhaps, the largest yoga book. Also supposed to be a Valmiki tradition.

    As with most, it is supposed to have been accreted over a core, until compiled ca. 800. Obviously a long break from Vedic Vasistha.

    Vasistha has a list of Sages that match the Veda, source not given:

    The seven seers are Vasiṣṭha, Kaśyapa, Atri, Jamadagni, Gautama, Viśvāmitra and Bharadvāja

    Vasiṣṭha (वसिष्ठ) married Ūrjā: one of the daughters of Dakṣa and Prasūti: one of the two daughters of Manu-svāyaṃbhuva and Śatarūpā

    Vasiṣṭha (वसिष्ठ) married Arundhati

    Arundhatī was known by the name Ūrjā also.

    married Kardama's daughter, Arundhatī

    "I consider mountains, earth and heaven as elements in which I live, only after considering my husband as the element in which I live. My husband is the first and foremost element in my life. Moreover I conform (anurodha) with the mind of my husband. So know me as Arundhatī."

    We almost find the Astrological Great Year in Bṛhatsaṃhitā (chapter 13):

    The Ṛṣis take a period of 100 years to go over each of the 27 asterisms. They rise in the north-east and are accompanied by the chaste Arundhatī—the consort of Vasiṣṭha.

    RigVeda 7:33 mentions Vashistha rishi as son of MitraVaruṇa and Urvasi.

    Vashistha and his family are glorified in RV 7.33, extolling their role in the Battle of the Ten Kings, making him the only mortal besides Bhava to have a Rigvedic hymn dedicated to him. Another treatise attributed to him is "Vashistha Samhita" - a book on the Vedic system of electional astrology.

    In the Vinaya Pitaka of the Mahavagga (I.245) section the Buddha pays respect to Vashistha by declaring that the Veda in its true form was declared to the Vedic rishis "Atthako, Vâmako, Vâmadevo, Vessâmitto, Yamataggi, Angiraso, Bhâradvâjo, Vâsettho, Kassapo, and Bhagu" and because that true Veda was altered by some priests he refused to pay homage to the altered version.

    Heard the brahmāṇḍa purāṇa from Indra and narrated it to Sārasvata

    kulaguru of the Ikṣvākus; narrated Paraśurāma's story to Sagara; blessed Sagara who enjoyed rule after world conquest; consoled him on the death of Sāgaras; agreed to anointing Aṃśumat as yuvarāja. Gave Prathiṣṭhāna to Sudyumna. Took Ikṣvāku to task for getting hare's flesh already tasted by Vikukṣi; was in charge of the kingdom when Trayyāruṇi went to the forest; met Kalmāṣapāda's queen for Aśmaka's birth; Purohita of Daśaratha and Rāma.

    Born in the vāruṇi-yajña from the centre of Vasu (sacrificial fire), and hence Vasumat; progenitor of Pitṛs, Sukātas.

    Vasiṣṭha who died at the sacrifice of Dakṣa took birth again from the sacrificial fire of Brahmā. Akṣamālā was the wife of this Vasiṣṭha. Akṣamālā was the rebirth of Arundhatī. So, in some Purāṇas, both are shown as one. This birth of Vasiṣṭha was terminated by the curse of emperor Nimi of the Ikṣvāku dynasty.

    Third birth. In the third birth Vasiṣṭha was born from a pot as the son of Mitrāvaruṇas. In this birth Vasiṣṭha was the brother of Agastya. In this birth the wife of Vasiṣṭha was an Arundhatī, who was the sister of Nārada. Thus according to the Purāṇas, it took three births for Vasiṣṭha to complete his life. It is difficult to ascertain, in which particular birth, a particular story, stated in the Purāṇas, took place.

    As to the Puranic daughter of Chhaya:

    Vasiṣṭha was his Guru and he taught Saṃvaraṇa the Vedas along with the Aṅgas.

    The celebrated emperor Kuru was the son born to Tapatī of Saṃvaraṇa. (Chapter 21, Vāyu Purāṇa).

    Tapatī becomes river Narmadā.

    VII.33 is started by:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): vasiṣṭhaputrāḥ

    and mostly talks about "the Vasisthas"; if there is a patriarch, probably intended here:

    Tṛtsus are the same as the Bharatas. Saṃvaraṇa, the son of Ṛkṣa, the fourth in descent from Bharata, the son of Duṣyanta, was driven from his kingdom by the Pāñcālas, andobliged to take refuge with his tribe among the thickets on the Sindhu until Vasiṣṭha came to them and consented to be the rājā's purohit, when they recovered their territory

    Then he comes in and gives his own legend:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): vasiṣṭhaḥ

    whose lines include:

    “When Mitra and Varuṇa beheld you, Vasiṣṭha, quitting the lustre of the lightning (for a different form),then one of your births (took place), inasmuch as Agastya bore you from your (former) abode.”

    Vasiṣṭha was born of the Apsaras.

    ...the water-jar, from the midst of which Māna arose, and from which also, they say, Vasiṣṭha was born.

    Sayana says:

    Māna: a name of Agastya with reference to his being of the measure of a span at his birth

    thence arose the great ascetic Agastya of the measure of a span, as measured by a measure (māna)

    Pratṛts, Agastya comes to you

    means that, apparently, Agastya also joins the Trtsus by virtue of the presence of Vasistha.

    RV Agastya is credited as the author of I.165 to the end of Book One.

    Manya Maitravaruni for VIII.67, Manyu Vasistha for part of a Soma Hymn. This one has a wide swath of Vasistha Gotra, plus Parasara Saktya, and Kutsa Angiras. IX.97 is nearly sixty verses starting with Vasistha.

    Agastya, Vasistha, and/or Manya are the Mitra--Varunas, implying resolution of the east/west conflict.

    Also considered to represent Brahmanical resurgence against royalty favoring the warrior/craftsman Viswamitra.

    Books Three and Seven together take only one generation, Sudas.

    So not only the famous battle, but, this theological dispute, are supposed to be resolved in one course.

    Second author in the Vasistha Soma is:

    Indrapramati (इन्द्रप्रमति).—The sage and a Vāsiṣṭha who came to see Parīkṣit practising prāyopaveśa. Learnt ṛk saṃhita from Paila and taught it to the sage Māṇḍukeya; (Markaṇḍeya) Also known as Kuṇi.

    Is this possible? Not really. This Vedic author is called a descendant in a Puranic view of the Four Vedas from Vyasa:

    He accepted Paila to study Ṛgveda, Vaiśaṃpāyana to study Yajurveda, Jaimini to study Sāmaveda and Sumantu to study Atharvaveda. Besides these he selected the highly intelligent Romaharṣaṇa alias Sūta to study the Itihāsas and Purāṇas.

    He arranged the performance of Adhvaryu as Yajus, that of hotṛ as Ṛks, that of Udgātṛ as Sāmans and that of Brahmā as Atharvans.

    Paila divided Ṛgveda into two saṃhitās and gave one each to Indrapramati and Bāṣkala. Sage Bāṣkala divided his Saṃhitā again into four and taught it to four of his disciples, Bodhi, Ādimāḍhava, Yājñavalkya and Parāśara. Indrapramati without splitting his saṃhitā taught it to his renowned son, Māṇḍūkeya. The branch of Indrapramati thus went down into circulation through the disciples of Māṇḍūkeya and the disciples of the disciples and so on.

    Brahmanda Purana:

    Vasiṣṭha, Śakti, Parāśara, the fourth one Indrapramati, the fifth one Bharadvasu, the sixth one Maitrāvaruṇi and the seventh one Kuṇḍina—these seven members of the family of Vasiṣṭha should be known as expounders of Brahman.

    Manu the son of Vivasvān (Sun) and King Pururavas the son of Ilā, these two excellent Kṣatriyas should be known as expounders of Mantras.

    where it seems to be giving the seven main mantra families as:








    Next, enumerated among the elder sons, we again see:

    Adhvaryus of the Caraka Branch of Black Yajurveda, —Jaimini, Bharadvāja, Kāvya,...Bhārgava.

    The preceptor of those who sing Sāman Mantras is King Pururavas, the son of Ilā. (not known in Caraka Samhita)

    and of course:

    The saintly lord accepted me as the disciple for Itihāsas, Purāṇas and Kalpavākyas.

    Only after that do we see the secondary mention of Indrapramati after Vyasa.

    From a fairly good article on how and why the chronology is what it is:

    Quote The six Family MaNDalas II-VII form the oldest core of the Rigveda.

    MaNDala IX was meant to be a kind of appendix in which hymns to Soma, ascribed to RSis belonging to all the ten families, were brought together.

    An examination of the MaNDala shows that it was compiled at a point, of time when a Rigveda of eight MaNDalas was already in existence as one unit with the eight MaNDalas arranged in their present order: it is significant that the first four RSis of both MaNDala I as well as MaNDala IX are, in the same order, Madhucchandas (with his son JetA in MaNDala I), MedhAtithi, SunahSepa and HiraNyastUpa.

    ...it is definitely much earlier than MaNDala X, but equally definitely later than the other eight MaNDalas.

    That seems reasonable and you might be able to make a case for three Vyasas involved.

    If what he did was select Riks to go into their own particular school, that says nothing as to how many. There could be a first, another for I and VIII, and the last for IX and X.

    What seems to be required for Vyasa to have any meaning, would be the conquest of the Beas River, accomplished by the time of the Six Family Mandalas.

    As to Book One:

    Quote The Kutsa and Agastya upa-maNDalas are ascribed to the eponymous RSis Kutsa and Agastya themselves, but they are obviously late upa-maNDalas composed by their remote descendants. Among other things, the only references to these eponymous RSis within the hymns prove this:

    The composers in the Kutsa upa-maNDala refer to the RSi Kutsa as a mythical figure from the past: I.106.6;112.9.

    The composers in the Agastya upa-maNDala repeatedly describe themselves as descendants of MAna (Agastya): I. 165.14,15; 166.15; 167.11; 169.10; 169.8; 177.5; 182.8; 184.4, 5; 189.8.

    Aware that Seven Sages cannot possibly work, he thinks most of the names in Book Nine are being cycled:

    Quote Ultimately, the only two hymns which can be ascribed to RSis belonging to the five earlier Family MaNDalas, and only for want of clear contrary evidence, are:

    IX.71 (ascribed to RSabha VaiSvAmitra of MaNDala III)

    IX.90 (ascribed to VasiSTha MaitrAvaruNI of MaNDala VII)

    As to the recycled Agastya:

    Quote MaNDala VII is also unique in its reference to three contemporary RSis to whom upa-maNDalas are ascribed in MaNDala I:

    Agastya (VII.33.10,13)
    Kutsa (VII.25.5)
    ParASara (VII.18.21)

    However, all these references make it very clear that these RSis are contemporaries of VasiSTha and not figures from the past:

    a. Agastya is VasiSTha's brother.
    b. The Kutsas are junior associates of the VasiSThas.
    c. ParASara is VasiSTha's grandson.

    MaNDala II does not refer to any composer from any other MaNDala, earlier or later. And, for that matter, no other composer from any other MaNDala refers to the GRtsamadas of MaNDala II.

    For Solar Kings:

    Quote Trasadasyu is referred to as a patron and contemporary by only three RSis:
    Atri Bhauma (V.27.3)
    SamvaraNa PrAjApatya (V.33.8)
    Sobhari KANva (VIII.19.32)

    Using ViSvAmitra and MaNDala III as a base, we get the following chronological equations:

    a. SudAs is many generations prior to Trasadasyu, since SudAs is contemporaneous with ViSvAmitra, while Trasadasyu is contemporaneous with ViSvAmitra's remote descendent SamvaraNa.

    Trasadasyu may then be close to Atri and Kasyapa.

    Is this possible?

    Saṃvaraṇa (संवरण).—A son of Ṛkṣa; and husband of Tapatī, and father of Kuru.

    Here is a later expression from a Kanva in VIII.51:

    Manu, the descendant of Saṃvaraṇa

    comment to VII.33:

    People of the Tṛtsus: Tṛtsus are the same as the Bharatas. Saṃvaraṇa, the son of Ṛkṣa, the fourth in descent from Bharata, the son of Duṣyanta, was driven from his kingdom by the Pāñcālas, and obliged to take refuge with his tribe among the thickets on the Sindhu until Vasiṣṭha came to them and consented to be the rājā's purohit, when they recovered their territory.

    So, he was obviously established generations prior to Book Five; here, we perhaps being the use of names on a second round with no obvious "II", but here is what is attributed to Samvarana Prajapatya:

    “May those ten bright homes, the gift to me of the pious gold-possessing Trasadasyu, the son of Purukutsa, of the race of Girikṣita, convey me (to the sacrifice) and may I proceed quickly with the rites.”

    the donation of Vidhata, the son of Marutaśva

    Vidhata is a Bhrgu, cycled from VI.50. These have no precedent:

    dhvanya, the son of Lakṣmaṇa

    I, Arya, Agni, praise Śatri, the son of Agniveśa

    Seems to me he has mixed the old and reliable with the new and unheard of. In its proper setting, there would be nothing mysterious about that at all.

    The famous Laksman is father of Angada and Citraketu, which does not hold a resemblance to this one.

    Arvind says:

    Though, Dadhyach (dadhyāč) is not a Ṛgvedic mantradṛṣṭā ṛṣi, he is a major mantradṛṣṭā ṛṣi for Śukla Yajurveda (Vājasaneyi-Saṃhitā), he visualized last five chapters of Vājasaneyi-Saṃhitā, where he is known as Dadhyang Atharvan.


    Navagva-s who pressed Soma, Da´sagva-s
    praise Indra with hymns of illumination.
    Exerting themselves men discovered just that —
    related to cows, wide, providing shelter [place].

    da´sagva is, probably, “a commander of ten men"

    Maybe, but, gva seems more like "way of going", i. e. Atithi Gva = way of going to the guest, then, navagva would be nine ways of going or nine-fold.

    Rg Veda does not seem to go much beyond that. We are left with a practice related to Dadhyan, who is only occasionally referenced.

    Presumably, Carakas might not have always been great experts on Saman or vice-versa, so it is possible there is more information in some pocket.

    Well, if the Rg Veda does not necessarily contain all the oldest stuff, here is what we find in a Yajur Veda with attributions; first, there is recognition of "the practice":

    50. (Pitarah Devata, Shamkha Rshi)

    Angiraso nah pitaro navagva’atharvano
    bhrgavah somyasah. Tesam vayam sumatau
    yajniyanamapi bhadre saumanase syama.

    Our parents and seniors, guardians of the nation,
    are seers and sages of the facts of holistic knowledge
    and law, scholars of the latest sciences, and experts of
    technology and engineering, all dedicated to universal
    love, non-violence and spiritual values and settled in
    mind for the peace and prosperity of mankind.

    Let us concentrate and dedicate ourselves to their
    wisdom, grace and excellence, and magnanimity and
    benevolence, for the reason of their devotion to yajna
    and their contribution to the progress of society.

    Again we find the connection to the first Rig Vedic Rishi:

    33. (Agni Devata, Bharadwaja Rshi)

    Tamu tva dadhyahhrsih putra ’ idhe ’atharvanah.
    Vrtrahanarh purandaram.

    Then ‘Dadhyang’, man of science and
    technology, and son-like disciple of the man of vision
    and science, ‘Atharva’, further lights and develops you,
    Indra’, i.e., electric energy, breaker of the clouds and
    shatterer of the hidden sources.

    But...it turns out to be correct there is a stack of the guy before him.


    1. (Agni Devata, Dadhyang-atharvana Rshi)

    2. (Brihaspati Devata, Dadhyang-atharvana Rshi)

    7. (Indra Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    8. (Indra Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    9. (Mitra & Others Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    10. (Vatah & Others Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    11. (Aharadaya Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    12. (Apah Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    17. (Ishvara Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    18. (Ishvara Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    19. (Ishvara Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    21. (Ishvara Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    22. (Ishvara Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    23. (Soma Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    24. (Surya Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)



    (Savita Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    3. (Dyava-prithivi Devate, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    4. (Yajna Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    5. (Yajna Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    6. (Yajna Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    8. (Yajna Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    9. (Vidvan Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    10. (Vidvan Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    11. (Savita Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    12. (Prithivi Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    13. (Vidvans Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    14. (Ishvara Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    15. (Agni Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    16. (Ishvara Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    18. (Ishvara Devata, Dadhyangatharvana Rshi)

    Nothing particularly anachronistic there that might make us challenge this. Probably is by the original of what it says it is.

    So I think we could say there was a bit of the Yajur and Atharva before Bharadwaj.

    This presentation however is very normal, and does not quite seem to offer Horse Head Rite explicitly.

    In Rg Veda, he is the subject, not the composer, which is why the hints are there.

    Of him, Brahmanda Purana tells us:

    Formerly the fire Edhiti was gathered by Atharvan in the ocean Puṣkara.[4]

    Hence the secular fire is considered Dadhyaṅ, the son of Atharvaṇa.


    The concept of Saptarṣis (seven sages)

    Well, I thought it was symbolic, Lotus in Water, and while that is probably still true, it is a location:

    Pushkar, seven miles north of Ajmer


    Pushkara has been known as a holy place for millennia, and today various sites around Pushkara honor well-known Vedic sages who performed penance there, including Agastya, Pulastya, and Markendeya. It was at Pushkara that the heavenly maiden Menaka distracted Vishvamitra, a warrior performing meditation to become a brahma-rishi, a brahmana sage. Later Vishvamitra attained his goal at Pushkara.

    Brahma Temple—The Lord Brahma temple is situated on the west side of town. Next to the four-headed deity of Brahma sits Gayatri Devi on the left and Savitri (Sarasvati) Devi on the right. Throughout the temple compound are shrines of demigods, such as Indra, Kuvera, Siva, and Durga, and saints and sages, such as Dattatreya, Narada Muni, and the Seven Rishis.


    The hermitage of sage Agastya is also situated at Pushkar. There are many other pilgrimages in and around Pushkar area like, the hermitage of the seven sages, the hermitages of different Manus of different Manvartars...


    Previously Pushkar had a hermitage of Saptrishis (the seven sages) too.

    Out of about Twelve Vasisthas:

    It is said that Ikshvaku attained the accomplishment of Sun God by doing rigorous penance for 100 nights and made his own separate kingdom and capital Ayodhyapuri by making sage Vashishtha a guru through his teachings. Since then sage Vashishta often started living there. Vashishta was the first teacher of Prajapita Brahma’s Yagya at Pushkar. Sage Vashishtha had performed many yagyas from Ikshvaku and Nimi...

    So, that is all word of mouth with no references.

    Later there are Seven Aravali Sisters defeated by the power of Vana Bhadrakali Amman (Mahabharata).

    Skanda Purana likes it:

    If (a pilgrimage to) Arbuda could be (performed) by persons who are miserable due to frequent births and they can resort to it, why should they remember Vārāṇasī and Kedāra? It is not necessary.

    Arbuda is Mount Abu in the Aravali range in Rajasthan. Vasiṣṭha’s hermitage was here...

    Ajmer and its temples are medieval, ca. 1100-1300. Here is an idea of where this really is:

    Quote The Aravalli Range is arguably the oldest geological feature on Earth...

    The Aravalli Range has been site of three broad stages of human history, early Stone Age saw the use of flint stones; mid-Stone Age starting from 20,000 BP saw the domestication of cattle for agriculture; and post Stone Age starting from 10,000 BP saw the development of the Kalibangan civilization, 4,000 years old Aahar civilization and 2,800 years old Gneshwar civilization.

    The Tosham hills have several Indus Valley civilization sites in and around the hill range as the area falls under copper-bearing zone of Southwest Haryana and Northeast Rajasthan of Aravalli hill range.

    Investigation of IVC network of mineral ore needs for the metallurgical work and trade shows that the most common type of grinding stone at Harappa is of Delhi quartzite type found only in the westernmost outliers of the Aravalli range in southern Haryana near Kaliana and Makanwas villages of Bhiwani district. The quartzite is red-pink to pinkish grey in colour and is crisscrossed with thin haematite and quartz filled fractures with sugary size grain texture.

    ...scientific studies of the material found prove that the Khanak site was inhabited by the IVC metal-workers who used the locally mined polymetallic tin, and they were also familiar with metallurgical work with copper and bronze. The lowest level of site dates back as far the pre-Harappan era to Sothi-Siswal culture (4600 BCE or 6600 BP) tentatively.

    That is about as IVC Copper Age as you could get, and here, combined with the pre-Vedic Seven Sages. Then combined with individuals perhaps more than once.

    In this case, it seems the Purana and the folklore are not too wide of the Veda. Initially, in VI.16, Atharvan extracts Agni from Pushkara.

    Vasistha and Puskara in VII.33

    Sunhashepa finds him there in I.24.

    Used as the Lotus of the Aswins by Tvastra.

    upon the lotus-leaf prajāpati made manifest the earth

    since it supported the earth, it may be termed the head, mūrdhan, or the bearer, vāghata for vāhaka, of all things; atharvan means prāṇa, vital air extracted fire or animal heat from the water, prāṇa udakasakāśād Agnim niśeṣaṇa mathitavān

    “The ṛṣi, Dadhyañc, the son of Atharvan, kindled the slayer of Vṛtra, the destroyer of the cities of Asuras.”

    He says Agni has operated in every age of man:

    mānuṣā yugā

    He mentions Soma Offering, but it is not elaborated.

    Book Six already has Dadhyan, Tvastr, Navagva, Seven Sages.

    So, you have a type of theological crisis, where Indra has killed a Brahman and hides in this Pushkara Lotus.

    We're not questioning his strength; Indra comparatively turns out to be closer to the art of illusion or Indra Jala:

    Quote Indrajala is mentioned in Atharva Veda (8.8.5-8) and jala did mean a net or a snare. In the hymn, we call upon Indra to cast his net and enmesh the hostile army. He is invoked to conjure up the illusion of a formidable army with his net and annihilate the enemy.

    In case you want a translation of the verses 8.8.5 – 8, here they are:

    5. Air was the net; the poles thereof were the great quarters of the sky. Sakra therewith enveloped and cast on the ground the Dasyus’ host.
    6. Verily mighty is the net of mighty Sakra rich in wealth: Therewith press all the foemen down so that not one of them escape!
    7. Great is thy net, brave Indra, thine the mighty match for a thousand, Lord of Hundred Powers! Holding them, with his host, therewith hath Indra slaughtered Dasyus a hundred, thousand, myriad, hundred millions.
    8. This world so mighty was the net of Sakra, of the Mighty One: With this, the net of Indra, I envelop all those men with gloom.

    Indra represents the mind and our mind is what creates the expansive mesh of thoughts. Our mind ambushes us into whatever we feel. It is the net of infinite desires that has us entrapped. You slash one desire and there it is, another one ready, right there.

    It is also interesting to note that the concept of Indrajala was later adopted by Buddhism...

    This is pretty much how we see it:

    Quote The Net of Indra is an old metaphor in Buddhism that talks about the unspoken reality of interdependence.

    Indra is one of the gods of Indian mythology that has been integrated into Buddhism as one of the deities and guardians of the dharma. There is this legendary tale of the god Indra having this palace on the top of mont Sumero high in the heavens. Suspended from the roof of this palace was this net, the net of Indra. The net stretched out endlessly in the ten directions. So, it was a net that was infinite in its dimensions, in its reaching out as it covered the whole of space. As all nets, the net of Indra was built through an infinite number of nodes. At the intersection of all these nodes, there was a jewel, the mani jewel, that was multi-faceted, and the different threads of the nets would go through each one of these jewels connecting them to all other jewels.

    Now, in that net, as all these jewels in infinite numbers are shining like myriad stars in the sky, you can see the reflection of all the different myriad jewels in every single jewel, and each jewel reflecting back the multifaceted radiance of all the other jewels across the net. This is an infinite process of mutually reflecting and being reflected back, simultaneously.

    What each jewel does not necessarily see is the thread that connects one to another and I think that’s a very beautiful metaphor, that bright jewel of Indra, about our condition, the way we are all connected to one another and to all things. We can see that we are all a jewel, we have that capacity to mirror, we reflect back, but often we forget that there’s this invisible thread that runs through us, that connects us with the infinity of this net. This is a metaphor for the process we call life. When we get too absorbed in our own thinking process or issues, when we are too self-centered, centered around our own radiance or lack of, we feel like we are suspended alone as a single jewel in the infinity of this universe.

    Now the whole point of practice is for us to feel the vibrancy of that invisible thread of the net of Indra that is running through each one of us. That’s what practice awakens us to. To find our place in the infinity of this existence, spatially, temporarily, seeing that we belong to something much vaster than ourselves yet that this tiny little jewel called us is not separated from the infinity of life but is an integral part of it.

    So he mostly has to do with form, and, although he consumes Soma, the point there is another step that purifies it and mixes or adds honey. That, I think, is why Dadhyan and Tvastr are there.

    The first Vedic authors would most likely be:

    Atharvangiras -- Atharva Veda

    Dadhyan -- Yajur Veda

    Bharadwaj -- Rg Veda

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Veda and Buddhism

    As a Buddhist, through the years I have found the same thing that people in a few fields have found: the Rg Veda has routinely been used as a source of stray quotes to support some or other idea, but we don't really know anything about the book itself.

    One of the more accurate ideas is that Buddha does not support aspects of Brahmanism, but never "rejected the Vedas". Secondly, you might say that many of the post-Vedic Brahmins were converts to Buddhism, and if that was "out" of anything, it would probably just be orthodox repetition of the rites.

    Well, from having trotted through the historical Veda at some length, that makes it easy to see what is going on and what is admired in the Buddhist Mahamayuri Vidyarajni:

    Quote “Ananda, you should recite the names of all these great sages, for they have gained spiritual attainment by keeping strict precepts, and observing austerity. They are imbued with dignity and virtue, radiate great light, and they either live in the mountains or along rivers, or reside in the forest. Should they wish to generate any good or evil mantra, or wish for anything good or bad, it is accomplished simply by their utterance. They have gained mastery of the five transcendental powers, and roam the space freely and unhindered, as in everything they do. You should recite their names as follows...

    “These sages were ancient great sages who had written the four Vedas, proficient in mantra practices, and well-versed in all practices that benefit themselves and others."

    The Mayuri is a set of multiple retinues like that, e. g., these are mentioned after the Planets.

    Almost all of these retinues are two things, unwieldy, large, excessive, but also containing entities who are notably important before and after this text.

    And so you get a list of what approximates ninety original sages. It includes some of the famous ones, and others such as:

    Maharishi Ekasrnga

    It is rapidly obvious that the majority of the list is contrived, and, in a way that cannot plausibly match the Veda. In that sense, the list is heavily Puranic, except mostly they are not coming from any known source. It might be difficult to get an educated Arya to even take it seriously--i. e. the same Brahmin class that is converting, compiling, and disseminating this literature. Moreover, the additions consist of ones that obviously concern interest in south India such as:

    Maharishi Matanga

    Maharishi Janguli

    Maharishi Potalaka

    and if it was to have a type of Puranic hand:

    Maharishi Markandeya

    At the time period Mayuri was composed (by 400), Buddhism was thriving in Orissa and attempting to expand into the southern tip of India. Mount Potalaka is at the border of Tamil Nadu and Kerala and:

    It is the traditional residence of Siddhar Agastya at Agastya Mala.

    If anything is true to the Veda in the Mayuri mantra, it would be the Seven Sages, but if we attempt to validate this, we do not find Rishi Agastya.

    Agastya is not in his Pali quote either.

    This is really a frontier, Kerala was not Brahmanized until the eighth century.

    We also just heard he was at Pushkar, Rajasthan. Of course, there is more than one Agastya.

    It would not be due to "lack of personage", because earlier from ca. year 100, Asvaghosha knows him:

    The brahman seer Viśvāmitra cultivated the path for tens of thousands of years. He became deeply attached to a celestial queen and was suddenly destroyed in one day.

    36. “The seer Agastya practiced asceticism for a long time, but because he wanted a celestial queen his wishes were consequently unrealized.

    37. “The seer Bṛhaspati and the celestial son Candramas, the seer Parāśara and Kapiñjalāda, all such, out of many others, were ruined by women.

    which seems to relegate us to one of two possibilities.

    There was no ancient legend of Agastya at Potalaka, it was added after Buddhism.

    There was an ancient legend of Agastya at Potalaka, which Buddhism has attempted to consume from the inside.

    To be equitable, we can say the Mayuri is specifically welcoming "Dravidian" not simply on a human level, but, as an allowable language for mantras.

    Tamils say that Agastya learned Tamil from Shiva, which sounds like a late Sanskrit name. If it was an ancient Tamil name, it is not Vedic Rudra. The problem with Tamil is that it has legitimate headroom to claim a spoken legacy of thousands of years, and that's it. There aren't any kinds of written evidence until a late period, ca. 300 B. C. E..

    Buddhism says Agastya learned Tamil from Avalokiteshvara, who, of course, is from Mount Potalaka.

    That would suggest there being some interest to highlight or promote his appearance, but, Mayuri functions differently from Avalokiteshvara. It is more notable for containing the Seven Historical Buddhas plus Maitreya, as if they were a corollary to the Vedic Sages.

    Buddhism contains a more condensed version in Manjushri Mula Kalpa:

    Also, the sages and the great sages gathered there. They were: {1.82}


    Ātreya, Vasiṣṭha, Gautama, Bhagīratha, Jahnu, Aṅgirasa, Agasti, Pulasti, Vyāsa, Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇagautama, Agni, Agnirasa, Jāmadagni, Āstika, Muni, Munivara, Ambara, Vaiśampāyana, Parāśara, Paraśu, Yogeśvara, Pippala, Pippalāda, Vālmīki, and Mārkaṇḍa. {1.83}

    MMK is much more definitive and informative for an era, post-500. Here we find Agastya, Atharva Veda, and a pretty significant exaltation of Ramayana and Markendaya Purana. It is not quite saying "these are the authors of Rg Veda", but it does appear to reject the little people/young sages tag that designates later people as being of a lesser status. I'm not sure anyone ever attempted to say Valmiki wrote any part of any Veda, so it would be obvious he is not the "same kind" of author as Agastya, the only real clue being that there must be those who did not participate in the dominant mode of the Brahman caste.

    What also comes to mind would be the existence of more Vedic material than is recorded. If we look at Book Five at what appears to be a profusion of Atreyas, it does not follow that some minor author composed one hymn in his whole life; like the senior Atreya, he probably composed a whole songbook. Similarly, there were probably others who were not recorded at all. Some small portion of the compiled Rig Veda is thought to have been lost. Buddhism does not really go any further, and just leaves some pool that "may be the Seven Sages and others". It does not make any claim such as "IX.75 by Rishi Potalaka" or invent or subvert a Vedic Samhita or anything devious like this. More obviously, it is just trawling common knowledge, as the suggestion of Vyasa, Valmiki, or Dwaipayana being Vedic authors is rather humorous.

    Almost like saying, if you are laboring under this mistake, don't worry about it.

    For some reason, this is not detected by Mayuri's Indian review, which focuses on her retinues and attempts to find Vedic comparisons. He extracted:

    an old list of goddess invoked in the ritual to the gnA-s and patnI-s in R^igveda:

    uta gnA vyantu devapatnIr indrANy agnAyy ashvinI rAT |
    A rodasI varuNAnI shR^iNotu vyantu devIr ya R^itur janInAm || (RV 5.46.8); See also (RV 1.22.12).

    for which the term "goddess" is:


    and this one:

    sapta svasAro abhi mAtaraH shishuM navaM jaGYAnaM jenyaM vipashchitam | RV 9.86.36ab

    which is most likely "seven rivers", so, I am not sure he has given the greatest examples. Rg Veda is stuffed with adjustable mini-retinues up to, I would say, illustrating the major basis of all yoga deity pantheons in Devi Suktam. Yes, the idea of ringing deities around the east, south, west, and north directions is Vedic. Most of the Riks are talking about the configuration that would happen in a temple setting, but the well-known Pancha Jina or five-deity format can be found.

    We found that Indra is sometimes also called "Indu", which may simply be the Indus River, or, Soma. The same is again Vastospati "lord of the dwelling" in VII.54:

    vāstoṣ pate śagmayā saṃsadā te sakṣīmahi raṇvayā gātumatyā | pāhi kṣema uta yoge varaṃ no yūyam pāta svastibhiḥ sadā naḥ ||

    And as posted previously, in Buddhism we do seem to keep Indra somewhat more prominently than in Puranic Hinduism. In general use, "indrajala" became more synonymous with jugglery, conjuration, phantasm, i. e. human misdirectional arts of maya, whereas we have it as a name for a Bodhisattva in the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra, from the list in the translation by Thurman:

    Indrajala, Jaliniprabha...

    and the illustration of the principle in the edition by Luk:

    Quote A son of an elder (grhapati), called Ratna-rasi, came with five hundred sons of elders, with canopies decorated with the seven gems to pay respect and offer them to Him. By using His transcendental powers, the Buddha transformed all the canopies into a single one which contained the great chiliocosm.

    With Mount Sumeru and all the concentric ranges around it, great seas, rivers, streams, the sun, the moon, planets and stars, and the palaces of devas, dragons, and holy spirits appeared in the precious canopy, which also covered all the Buddhas who were expounding the Dharma in the ten directions.

    We see they give us varying amounts of the original Sanskrit, so we find "Householder", Grhapati, which is part of the essence of this Sutra:

    Finally, there was the fourfold community, consisting of Bhikkhus, Bhikkhunis, laymen, and laywomen.

    So, yes, both here and Golden Light Sutra, you get a mystical catharsis on the part of the ordinary person.

    Not as in Asvaghosha's "worldling", but any of them who has turned to the Dharma.

    Coupled with the philosophical comment about non-duality, that is how the performance of the Indra Jala is gauged:

    Quote At that time, the Buddha pressed the toes of His (right ) foot on the ground and the world was suddenly adorned with hundreds and thousands of rare and precious gems of the great chiliocosm, like the precious Majestic Buddha’s pure land adorned with countless precious merits, which the assembly praised as never seen before; in addition each person present found himself seated on a precious lotus throne.

    The Buddha said to Sariputra: “Look at the majestic purity of this Buddha land of mine.”

    Sariputra said: “World Honoured One, I have never seen and heard of this Buddha land in its majestic purity.”

    The Buddha said: “This Buddha land of mine is always pure, but appears filthy so that I can lead people of inferior spirituality to their salvation. This is like the food of devas which takes various colours according to the merits of each individual eater. So, Sariputra, the man whose mind is pure sees this world in its majestic purity.”

    Again, to us, it may be revealed, but to actually use it as Buddha does is another story.

    In simple terms, you might think of it as those thoughts, behavior patterns, and nervous reactions that have clouded and distorted our perception compared to the pristine experience of early childhood. That is why we are not seeing the Indrajala to begin with. Most yogas will make it shine in one way or another.

    As said Bhela Samhita of Atharva Veda:

    He mentioned the place of Manas as behind the Tālu.

    In that sense, the mind of form is said to be centered over the Talu or Khecari Point at the soft palate. This corresponds to where most of the inputs come in from the spine and mix with activity from the brain. So in the yoga view, this would be that Indra related to Soma. Therefor, detecting it is a difficult step; stopping it and transforming it even harder.

    What lineage is this through?

    Bhela is the disciples of Punarvasu and Ātreya. Agniveśa's friend's name is Bhela. Agniveśa and Bhela were in the same period. They received the knowledge of Āyurveda from Punarvasu and wrote Bhela Saṃhitā

    In his text, Bhela mentioned that Candrabhāgā and Ātreya were the same.

    It does look that for some time, Atharva became its own large established school but:

    Out of these, only the Saunakiya and Paipplada Sakhas are available now. It is believed that the Saunakiya Sakha is available in Gujarat, the Paippalada Sakha is available in Odisha.

    Rather than Ghee Offerings, it works with Four Activities, and appears to move an expensive royal rite to within a householder's means.

    According to its modern publication:

    Pippalada redacted them into nine recensions and five kalpas. Out of the nine recensions, two have survived: Saunaka (Sau.) and Paippalada (Paip.). Paippalada preserves the older tradition and has better readings.

    It is like a special class of priest, mixed with folk magic everyone did before the Vedas, with surgery.

    So you could call Buddha anti-Brahmanical to this extent:

    His opposition against the most cherished concepts prevalent — Vedas (specifically the Karma Kanda section)...

    karma kanda (ritual portion)

    a Vedic passage that enumerates the performance of rituals and sacrificial rituals performed by Brahmins

    Dr. Ambedkar:

    He condemned karma kanda and yajnas as sites of violence and inequality.


    Karma-kanda is the section of the Vedas that many consider the most essential part of Vedic teachings.


    Karma Kanda is Bhakti and it turns into gnanam. When he reaches the gnana margam, he leaves the karma Kanda.

    Brahmana is simultaneously a caste and their genre of commentarial literature:

    The Brāhmaṇas and Araṇyakas are ritual texts based upon the practical application and usage of the Saṃhita portion in rituals (yajñas).

    A portion of the Vedas, that which comprises the precepts that inculcate religious duties, the maxims which explain those precepts and the arguments which relate to theology; it is, however, now often blended with other portions.

    That portion of the Veda which states rules for the employment of the hymns at the various sacrifices, their origin and detailed explanation, with sometimes lengthy illustrations in the shape of legends or stories. It is distinct from the Mantra portion of the Veda.

    The Brāhmaṇas were entrusted with the duty of preserving the intellectual and spiritual culture of the society. Of course one cannot dogmatise whether the Brāhmaṇas carried on Vedic studies, in the period under reference, with the same spirit of selflessness as was expected of them in earlier times or not, it seems certain that for officiating as priests at the sacrifices they had to study the Vedas and the Sūtras dealing with ritualism.

    ...rules for the employment of the Mantras or hymns at various sacrifices, with detailed explanations of their origin and meaning and numerous old legends; they are said by Sāyaṇa to contain two parts: 1. vidhi, rules or directions for rites; 2. artha-vāda, explanatory remarks; each Veda has its own Brāhmaṇa, that of the [Ṛg-veda] is preserved in 2 works, viz. the Aitareya, sometimes called Āśvalāyana, and the Kauṣītaki or Śāṅkhāyana-Brāhmaṇa; the white Yajur-veda has the Śata-patha-Br°; the black Yajur-veda has the Taittirīya-Br° which differs little from the text of its Saṃhitā; the [Sāma-veda] has 8 Br°s, the best known of which are the Prauḍha or Pañca-viṃśa and the Ṣaḍviṃśa; the [Atharva-veda] has one Br° called Go-patha), [Nirukta, by Yāska; Gṛhya-sūtra and śrauta-sūtra] etc.

    In other words, we have been posting about the Rg Veda Samhita, i. e. the hymns or mantras themselves and their header stamp, such as the author and meter.

    Sayana's comments are from the 1300s and some of them are useful, but just as frequently he seems to be regurgitating misinformation. He uses Aitareya Brahmana, and so we have only been dealing with that indirectly because of him. To a lesser extent the Taittiriya and some Puranas. Most obviously he is cleanly snapped from any direct, continuous memory of the actual Vedic times. He has gotten a job to study it with what is available to him.

    The main mistake is there is no caste in the Veda Samhita. In Purusa Suktam, Brahmin is a varna, a profession. So, yes, we are heavily suspicious that in the 500 or so years between the compilation of the Vedas and the life of Buddha, "varna" had become re-interpreted as "birth status", and so you get an hereditary privileged elite that wound and wended its way in this karma kanda apparatus. It must have become institutionalized to some extent.

    It becomes clear that we are less interested in the inheritance of rituals, but are interested in the inner meaning of mantras that are also used in ritual.

    To us it is certainly a transfer of the Chakravartin symbol as might be appropriate for example for Emperor Bharata.

    There are no results yet but a computerized study of IVC seals has been launched to seek any patterns that might be consistent with Atharva Veda which is the main way the Chakravartin is being taken. We would strongly suggest this is the original location of "Ayodhya" in Rg Veda, as a symbolic place being a yoga view of the human body, and Bharata is probably simply synonymous with Agni.

    It would seem to me necessarily, Atharva Veda was first and included all that other stuff in it.

    Then we see Dadhyan specifically uses a Yajna Devata.

    So, in order for it to be sensible, there must have been some sort of extant purana, brahmana, and so forth, that would account for the Seven Sages, aspects of Manu, and this, which is already evidently Honey Doctrine, which is simply the Buddhist Yoga we are referencing back through the Veda.

    At the very least, this would seem to say it is impossible that IVC did not interact with Sanskrit speakers during its time of producing its seals. At the same time, they begin growing rice. The main expansion is in Haryana, which Rg Veda also involves.

    I suppose the reason the Syrian Sanskrit should be considered post-Vedic, is not because of the significance of the deities in the contract, but the fact of it being concurrent with elaborate horse breeding and training material and the appearance of new chariots. This observation is not water tight, but is only indicative.

    Because it turns out there is actually Puranic material within the Rg Veda itself, and, this came bubbling up like a cauldron, it is difficult. I am thinking each Mandala is probably worth its own post and the whole thing can be master linked to a smaller table. The advantage is things can be added or changed any time, unlike static web pages or books. Currently information is strewn around due to the nature of searching.

    I have a thesis, which is to use the Rg Veda to refute Puranic Manali.

    This will exactly fly in the face of ordinary reviewing. On an objective basis, people can understand the background generally:

    According to one theory, the lost city of Dwarka was built on reclaimed land roughly 3500 years ago and was drowned in water when sea levels rose. Scientific studies have revealed that the sea level in the area has risen and decreased numerous times before reaching its current levels in 1000 CE. These changing sea levels could be caused by anything from geological disturbances to coastal erosion.


    ...the city was rebuilt at least 7 times. The archaeologists believe that the city was submerged sometime during 2000 BC due to heavy floods for over a period of time which lead to the submergence of the city...over centuries, as the water receded, many civilizations had flourished in the same place where Dwarka once stood. The present city is believed to be the 7th city built on the same place. Many evidences and excavations suggests that various civilizations flourished in the same place which dates back to 15 Century BC.


    The last one was undertaken in 2007, and it recorded several findings dated to around 1528 BCE – the period of the Late Harrapan Civilization.

    Marine archeologists found stone anchors similar to ones used in Syria and Cyprus (1400 – 1200 BC) and it’s been proven that the trade existed between these lands as far back as 2000 BC. The other anchors they’ve found date as far back as 2500 BC.

    Just by accident, they found new structures while monitoring the seafloor for pollution. This time the structures lay underwater in the Gulf of Cambay.

    14,500 years ago, sea level along the west coast of India was about 100m lower as compared to the present, and rose to 80m depth around 12,500 years ago with a rate of ~10m/1,000 years. It was followed by a quiet period when the level remained unchanged for about 2,500 years, thus providing time for civilization to flourish before being engulfed by the sea again. From 10,000 to 7,000 years ago, the sea level rose at a very high rate (~20m/1000 years) and after approximately 7,000 years B.P. it has fluctuated to more or less the present level.


    Quote The survivors of the flood run to the north, to the mountains. Here, the legend of Manu (the First Man who rescued people from the flood and helped to rekindle the civilization) comes into play. It is also said that he was the carrier of the Vedas which he received from Matsya, one of the Avatars of Vishnu.

    This would be the Gospel According to Matsya Purana. There is no Matsya in the Veda. What is in the Veda is telling us that the "mountains"--Manali--were in the hands of hostiles who were defeated. The Rg Veda does have a vague Manu mythos which is almost entirely symbolic, a mental influence to an actual founder figure. Certainly not a universal flood and survivor.

    Pre-Vedic activities that would be revered are mantras and Soma.

    Or, I think we can say pre-Rg Veda, there was Atharvan and Yajus. A type of mantra master and a training system that is mixed with ritual techniques. The Rg Veda shows us that those who mainly worked on the hymns gained royal support and transmitted through stable chains of disciples. Then Atreya is a big change from that.

    Then if there is a better case that Kasyapa took this new, robust system *from* Manali *to* Dwarka, it is not necessary he made the absolute first settlement there. It would have seemed very new and been big.

    The Rg Veda probably also makes this repair before the time of Atreya:

    Quote The members of Angiras and Bhrigu families originally formed a single unit and were great philosophers, leaders and religious teachers. The Atharvanic texts represents an attempt of the Brahmanic orthodoxy led by the Angirasas and Bhrigus to enlist the sympathy of the masses whose beliefs and traditions are faithfully recorded in the Atharva Veda. The Bhrigus and Angirasas were jointly responsible for the final redaction of the Mahabharata and supported the Vaishnava religion and used the Mahabharata as a vehicle of instructing the people in the new and simplified forms of the Vedic religion devised by them.

    Talageri thinks the passed-down/"traditional" Bhrgu hymns are reliably credited to their ancient namesakes, and that all of the Anigrases that look like re-namings have *no* other reliable attributions to antecedents.

    Yes, the Mahabharata probably is an attempt to shape or devise something.

    Book Eight of the Kanvas primarily shows the "reunion", or, blends in both Angirases and Bhargavas. The same names centuries later working with Mahabharata does not ensure the same integrity.

    The last two Rg Veda books so far are more like "subjects" than eras marked by battles or towns, which is Soma for Book Nine characterized by Kasyapa, and you could perhaps say metaphysics in Ten characterized by Death--Bhrgu and Creation--Angiras. And if we cannot yet be sure about Potalaka, there is a northern Vasistha as when we found before:

    Arbuda is Mount Abu in the Aravali range in Rajasthan. Vasiṣṭha’s hermitage was here...

    which becomes relevant to what might possibly be the brood of Kadru in X.94:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): arbudaḥ kādraveyaḥ sarpaḥ [arbuda kādraveya sarpa];
    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): grāvāṇaḥ

    who perhaps derives from the unusual author of X.175:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): ūrdhvagrāvārbudaḥ
    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): grāvāṇaḥ;

    “May the divine Savitā urge you, stones, by his sustaining (action), be yoked to the chariot-poles, express (the Soma).”

    “Drive away, stones, the malevolent (folk), drive away evil intention, make our cattle a remedy (against distress).”

    “The stones consentient with the central pivot are honoured, giving energy to the sprinkling (Soma).”

    “May the divine Savitā quickly urge you, stones, by his sustaining (action) for the sake of the worshipper, who makes the libation.”

    I may have said that backwards, i. e. this author's last name shows his likely influence by the previous who has it as a first name.

    Even if they are only in late books, this still qualifies Arbuda as having a Vedic origin. But I am not sure we can say Potalaka has been "discovered" by Vedic Rishis yet. Even if some Tamils became Sages, this does not tell us much about their distant border. Simply a few routes of contact in central India and a language related to Sanskrit.

    Agastya's southern migration is described as early as Ramayana.

    Tamils do not really accept any Agastya on a mission from Shiva:

    Quote The name Agastya first appears explicitly in Thevaram. This myth was plausibly created for religious/political reasons to establish a divine relationship between Lord Siva and Tamil-speaking masses. This is also the period of the political alliance between Vedics and Saivites. This is also the period when Murugan became Subramaniam and Siva was Sanskritized. Most likely the story of Agastya got introduced in the 7/8th century (coincides with the commencement of Sanskritization during the Pallavas) and solidified in the 13/14th century (coincides with the fag end of Tamil kingdoms).

    There is no Agathiyam today. Not even morsels. Interestingly, many grammar books, like Tholkappiam and Nannool, exist today. In all likelihood, if Agathiyam were a real book, our ancestors would have preserved it at any cost, just like they saved Thirukkular, Thirumandhiram, and Tholkapiam.

    This myth is kept afloat even today only to maintain a millineum-old cultural hegemony of Sanskrit loyalists over Tamil. They derive pleasure in boasting that Tamils are barbarians, and had no culture, no language, no literature and no religion until they civilized us. We see this same-old stale narrative among the white nationalists across the world.

    Quote ...it is beyond our comprehension why a north Indian legendary sage Agastya should have taken the trouble of arriving, in times of yore, from Mount Kailasam(!!!!) crossing rivers, valleys and hills, in our land, that is Tamil Nadu, for the sake of teaching our own language to us. He could have done this service to any other people on his way. Why did he come this far , to the southern most corner of the Indian continent, is our question. The absurdity of the Agasthiyar story becomes plain in the light of the report on the genetic study made, by the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology ( CCMB), Hyderabad, the state of Telangana, on the current Indian population. The study has conclusively proved that Kerala ( it was a part of ancient Tamil Nadu till the 14th century CE) and by extension, the present Tamil Nadu, were the first settlement of the fully-evolved modern humans from Africa, 60,000 years BCE. These people multiplied in number and spread ( may be thinly) all over the sub-continent in course of time, before being joined by another wave of humans who left Africa twenty thousand years later ( 40,000 BCE) to settle in the Eurasian part of the globe and a part of whom slowly moved from there towards the south-east to settle in today’s Afghanistan,and, finally, in the Indus Valley.

    ...the narrative on Agasthiyar is a 10th or 11th century CE creation of the Tamil commentators who had a Sanskrit-leaning ( Sanskrit, by this time, had gained a foothold in the Tamil land ).

    Quote The famous Arab traveller Al’ biruni mentions Brahmins had not written Vedas till 10th century, nor anyone ever heard what they sounded like because women and all other castes were not allowed to hear it. So essentially no one knew what sanskrit was or what the sanskrit literature sounded like. The people who could not listen to vedas consisted of more than 90% of the population.

    All other chinese travellers before Al’Biruni have only mentioned Buddhism, faxian took 10000 books with him to china, but not a single vedic text. He lived in India for around 30 yrs but not a single mention of brahminism or vedas or classical sanskrit in his notes.

    And he was a scholar who travelled countries in search of knowledge completely missed the so claimed great source of knowledge “Vedas” in India inspite of living here or 30 yrs ?

    Nor did he ever encountered a Brahmin in his life sounds strange to me. But he is not alone of the 17 or so chinese travelers not a single one mentions vedas.

    Of course it is not true there was "no Sanskrit" because of the closed nature of the Vedas in the Puranic era. Just a bit strange that the system has been buried in another system.

    The main point is that this language is magical to begin with, and is Speech, not writing.

    So, because I am forced to absorb Rg Veda as a book, I certainly find that the yoga explanation would be the dominant paradigm of its own origin. The language or the Speech is finding opportunities via sages and kings to express itself. Some kind of ritual structure was similarly a vehicle. The way we see it is that ritual may be the limit of a being's ability, and the meaning of yoga has to do with discovering the symbolic inner meaning of what is being performed.

    The qualification for priesthood is memorizing and being able to recite and perform, so, this could still be called a job, to which yoga is the inner portion.

    The license is deities that act as one's priest.

    I think it will be useful to make posts on an individual Mandala basis. The information is kind of scattered and anything else will just keep scattering it.

    If Atharvan is primordial to the Veda, even if there are later traditions giving his antecedents, there is really no answer on the symbolic lineage of Atharvan. They are not historical entities.

    Honey Doctrine however is in the two Major Upanishads, in one case given with something like the retinue of Indra's Heaven in Candogya Upanishad Chapter Three:

    The tenth khanda states about the meditation on the Sadhyas.

    So, yes, we can say this progeny of Dharma is at least remembered somewhere.

    We will get a more detailed version along the lines of Aurobindo's adherent R. L. Kasyap:

    Quote The very basis of Kashyap’s thesis is that current interpretations of Samitha portions have been clouded by scholars taking a too “literal” view. This “literal” view that Kashyap refers to ignores the concept of “experience” in traditional Indian scholarship, whereby it was mandated that the disciple reach a certain level of consciousness to understand the scripture. This phenomenon is known as Anubhuva, a Sanskrit word that means direct experience or personal knowledge. In relation to the Vedas, Kashyap explains that the Rig Veda is not merely a text of hymns and prayers but rather deep philosophical poetry clouded by symbolism which, due to colonial scholarship, has not been unearthed yet.

    Kashyap takes a different line of thinking that is built on the belief that these Rigvedic Gods are not actual “Gods” but rather representations of other planes of existence. Kashyap takes the example of Agni, the God of fire and the second most famous God in the Rig-Veda Samitha. Utilising his theory of God’s being symbolic representations of different planes of existence, Kashyap presents the idea that Agni’s symbolism stands “for the principle of higher aspiration in man to achieve higher things than his present state.”

    Evidently, the doctrine of Madhu Vidya (mystic honey), a parable presented in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad that describes the connection of all beings to the self, is something already expounded in the Samitha portion of the Rig-Veda. Kashyap substantiates his theory that the philosophy of the Upanishads is in direct harmony with the Samitha, evidencing the quotes of the Rig-Veda verses (1.116.12;1.117.22,6.47.18.) These verses state that this exposition was already known to the sages of the Rig-Veda, specifically Dhadrayan Atharvan, who was taught this exposition by the twin healers, the Ashvin. Through drawing key quotes and philosophical connections, Kashyap goes against the mainstream narrative that the Samitha portions were mere barbaric indictments, instead proposing that they were the guiding philosophy of what later became the Upanishads.

    Yes, and to the extent the Veda insists the Seven Sages have always been doing this, the scriptures themselves hadn't started anything. And then you would take it as why Tvastr is such a recurrent character who has a bizarre rivalry with Indra. It would not make sense in the "literal view". You might say that Dadhyan Rishi has the secret knowledge that is Amrita, whereas Tvastr's dwelling has an abundant supply of the highest quality Nectar.

    In other words, mankind might swipe a drop from a Garuda, but is not at the table of fine quality.

    So, it is not speculation, the words of the Veda *do* convey Immortality as the main guide. It is built on liberation from sin and material well-being. It does *not* specify liberation in terms of escape from rebirth or permanent egress to the Vaikunthas or Brahma Loka. It *does* say that Soma and the Devas are primarily mental. Therefor, its use of rituals is a didactic or learning device, rather than the ultimate fulfilment of the Veda's intent.

    For myself as well that was the case. I had done various neo-pagan western exercises, which have a huge devotion to Ceremonial Magic. That is what you can get from Golden Dawn and most offshoots, their own definitions accompanied by ritual injunctions, and you do some arbitrary thing. I had to change the questions I was asking, and then it literally started in the Springtime with the Bees. After about six months or by the end of the year, with just a very meager patchwork of eastern ideas, everything completely changed.

    Unfortunately there is a big difference between the raw energy of Subtle Yoga, and that which would constitute a Spiritual Path. The one is simply the door to the other. So we don't want those posts that just "activate" something. We do want what is educational towards the Vedic mantras, with the means to exclude that which is found to be unnecessary and extraneous, especially a high caste doing rituals on auto-repeat and otherwise generally preventing the public any access to the inner meaning.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Pre-Vedic internal legendry -- not Genesis

    This will start to expand the physical summary post on the Rg Veda from the previous page.

    Each Mandala has enough material to fill a post of its own, so that is what we will make. But first, we want to introduce the pre-existing lore that the Veda must have been composed within, and not by taking the assertions of later works.

    I cannot find anything in the Rg Veda that vaguely resembles Adam and a given descent of human families.

    It has this, relative to its own participants, who are of three major groups. Two are most commonly known as the Solar and Lunar Dynasties, and the third is the main player of the Veda itself, i. e. Sudas and those Purus who are descendants of Bharata.

    They are all manifestations of Manu, which is something far more like a mentality or mental principle than an ancient person. In other words, the lineages "enter the realm of myth", when traced to the grandfathers of the first recorded people. Like asking how the Greek Olympians could possibly be related to human beings.

    There is the corresponding assertion that elder bygone generations also venerated Indra and drank Soma and so on, and so there is a complete lack of revelation. There is no founder. Sage Atharvan is the main initiator of what we have in the known Veda, and nothing specifically given about any precursors of him. Just the expression this has always been done.

    Nahusa and the Lunar Dynasty are mostly to the west and south, descent from a Manu-like figure has nothing to do with being good or evil, these tribes at various times are in conflict with or join the Purus. This is a substantial part of the material that is in the Rg Veda.

    Mandhatr and the Solar Dynasty is rather considered "foreign", i. e. from the east or Gangetic doab. Material about them is quite small, but they are considered extremely important.

    We can be fairly sure that the first Rg Vedic Sages were "recorded" because of working for the Bharata Purus.

    Here, we have the sympathetic view that Speech itself is using these opportunities as gateways to express something profound. It is not a session of cheerleading. Some of it necessarily has that tone, but what is it saying besides what some other authors claim it does?

    One of the striking things about the Vedas--which is also true of Pali literature--is that there is no "development of writing". We go from zero evidence to a massive, intricate web of subtly-nuanced philosophy and esoterism, some of which is done in the most technically gifted verse forms known to man.

    Also, it teaches practically nothing. It appears the audience must have a broad based understanding in order for the verses to even make sense. I have been calling this "a purana", however the technically correct mode is likely expressed in this study by Lubin on Oxford:

    Quote The earliest Vedic ritual texts ordain a complex priestly “high cult” involving multiple fires and priests, later called Śrauta ritual (referring to śruti, “what is heard,” regarding the mantras and ritual injunctions of the Veda). Parallel to and ultimately presupposed by the Śrauta ritual system were the simpler, less theorized rites performed in the household (gṛha), mainly by the paterfamilias himself. These “domestic” (Gṛhya) Vedic rites comprised fire offerings (homa), fireless offerings (bali), rites of the life-cycle (saṃskāra), and a wide variety of rites believed to confer blessing, protection, healing, power over others, and other practical purposes. Such rites are alluded to in passing in the Rig Veda, an anthology of the oldest compositions in Sanskrit and the basis for Śrauta liturgy, and are described more extensively in the Atharva Veda. But we find the first formal, systematic treatment of them in the Gṛhya sutras, a genre of ritual codes modeled on the more extensive Śrauta sutras. These first promulgations of these domestic ritual codes mark the moment when the Vedic priesthood began to extend its professional functions into a wider range of society and into more areas of everyday life. Indeed much of the interest of the Gṛhya texts lies in the detailed (if idealized) picture they present of household customs, everyday concerns, gender roles, familial and social relations, and prevailing beliefs about the divine and supernatural forces that affect human welfare.

    The topic of Vedic domestic ritual has never received as much attention as the Śrauta “high cult” of the Vedic tradition.

    Lubin 2010 makes a case for seeing the canonization of a Gṛhya liturgy as a strategy for the Brahman priesthood both to expand its lay clientele and to promulgate a this-worldly religious system predicated upon ascetical modes of self-discipline.

    The handful of Grhya studies is pioneered by Oldenberg 1892, who crashes in to the same logical inconsistency we have found from texts imparting "ancient origins" to the Vedic mythical characters:

    Quote It is certain indeed that a number of the most important of those ceremonies are contemporaneous with or even earlier than the most ancient hymns of the Ṛg-veda, as far as their fundamental elements and character are concerned, whatever their precise arrangement may have been. However, in the literature of the oldest period they play no part. It was another portion of the ritual that attracted the attention of the poets to whom we owe the hymns to Agni, Indra, and the other deities of the Vedic Olympus, viz. the offerings of the Śrauta-Ritual with their far superior pomp, or, to state the matter more precisely, among the offerings of the Śrauta-Ritual the Soma offering.

    Many of these verses are found in the more recent Vedic Saṃhitās, especially in the Atharva-veda Saṃhitā which may be regarded in the main as a treasure of Gṛhya verses; others finally have not as yet been traced to any Vedic Saṃhitā, and we know them from the Gṛhya-sūtras only.

    We often find in the Brāhmaṇa texts also mention of the terminus technicus, which the Gṛhya-sūtras use many times as a comprehensive term for the offerings connected with Gṛhya ritual, the word pākayajña. For instance, the Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa, in order to designate the whole body of offerings, uses the expression: all offerings, those that are Pākayajñas and the others. It is especially common to find the Pākayajñas mentioned in the Brāhmaṇa texts in connection with the myth of Manu. The Taittirīya Saṃhitā opposes the whole body of sacrifices to the Pākayajñas. The former belonged to the gods, who through it attained to the heavenly world; the latter concerned Manu: thus the goddess Iḍā turned to him. Similar remarks, bringing Manu or the goddess Iḍā into relation with the Pākayajñas, are to be found Taittirīya Saṃhitā VI, 2, 5, 4; Aitareya-Brāhmaṇa III, 40, 2. However, in this case as in many others, the Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa contains the most detailed data, from which we see how the idea of Manu as the performer of Pākayajñas is connected with the history of the great deluge, out of which Manu alone was left. We read in the Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa:

    'Now the flood had carried away all these creatures, and thus Manu was left there alone. Then Manu went about singing praises and toiling, wishing for offspring. And he sacrificed there also with a Pāka-sacrifice. He poured clarified butter, thickened milk, whey, and curds in the water as a libation.' It is then told how the goddess Iḍā arose out of this offering. I presume that the story of the Pākayajña as the first offering made by Manu after the great flood, stands in a certain correlation to the idea of the introduction of the three sacrificial fires through Purūravas. Purūravas is the son of Iḍā; the original man Manu, who brings forth Iḍā through his offering, cannot have made use of a form of offering which presupposes the existence of Iḍā, and which moreover is based on the triad of the sacred fires introduced by Purūravas; hence Manu's offering must have been a Pākayajña; we read in one of the Gṛhya-sūtras: 'All Pākayajñas are performed without Iḍā.'

    So, yes, SB refers to a flood and begins an idea about Manu that simply won't work.

    No Flood or Manu back-traced to this origin point is in the Veda.

    Therefor, our thesis is that the story of Manali is basically true, except there was no flood and it happened *during* or within the events recorded in the Rg Veda.

    Concurrently, Grhya practice moved to the forefront, becomes espoused by the New Books. There are apparently numerous ways of teaching or performing these; Greenmessage examples:

    1. Rig Veda:

    Ashvalayana Grihya-Sutras
    Kausitaki Grihya-Sutras
    Samkhayana Grihya-Sutras

    2. Sama Veda:

    Drahyayana Grihya-Sutras
    Gobhila Grihya-Sutras
    Jaiminiya Grihya-Sutras
    Khadira Grihya-Sutras

    3a. Krishna Yajur Veda:

    Agniveshya Grihya-Sutras
    Apastamba Grihya-Sutras
    Baudhayana Grihya-Sutras
    Bharadwaja Grihya-Sutras
    Hiranyakeshi Grihya-Sutras
    Kathaka Grihya-Sutras
    Manava Grihya-Sutras
    Vaikhanasa Grihya-Sutras
    Varaha Grihya-Sutras

    3b. Shukla Yajur Veda:

    Paraskara Grihya-Sutras

    4. Atharva Veda:

    Kaushika Grihya-Sutras

    Aside from later complications of how this may have been used to manipulate the House Dwellers, it appears there is momentum *from* the Atharva Veda *through* the Rg Veda into everyone's home, or personal experience. Therefor, it would accumulate or gather meaning rather than suppress it. We are interested in the meaning, not forcing someone to go through a routine rotely without any sincerity or personal absorption.

    Individually, verses are tiny compared to the conversations people could have, which is why we would suspect that even the first Mandala is only a hint of a vast panorama.

    I would suggest the whole Rg Veda is written backwards. The last book, Mandala Ten, is where we find all the antecedents--important lineage heads such as Mandhatr or Prithu, three kinds of Creation myths, Parasurama, and Pururuvas, who personally appears to be the head of the whole system.

    The End is The Beginning, particularly compared to the way Genesis is written. My conservative guess is that the last book is five hundred years after the first, but it may have been double that. So, for example, Pururavas and his story may have been known in a non-verse form, and Book Ten "professionalizes" this.

    Purus or "many" appear to be the mainstream people of Haryana and perhaps Uttar Pradesh, who invite Gangetic denizens to an alliance which works so well, they are considered their own divine dynasty and receive a type of extra adulation.

    India's two major dynasties, Lunar and Solar, would be more accurately expressed as:

    Aila Pauravas and Ayodhya Prithus

    which is completely symbolic.

    Along with these, Emperor Bharata.

    We are saying these are an inflection point where you might say there was a "first man" at the head of the dynasties, who does not even attempt to trace himself to an actual "first man". That whole arena is left to indefinite "ages". Its closest tie to this otherwise unspoken history is found in the summary of Mandala Six:


    Appears to be one of older hymns
    Reference to Navagvas and seven sages of old
    Indra is known to dwell on heights and also referred to as Asura slayer
    The Dasas are not yet subdued and Indra is asked to let the arms of Nahusa to be mighty

    That's it. The Veda just says there have always been Seven Sages; it does not pin them to the stars of Ursa Major (as in Satapatha Brahmana), and at most it simply identifies them in Book Nine. Otherwise it is only been saying they spread this Navagva rite and no one knows what it is. The nearest estimation is that it is Soma Purification or Honey Doctrine.

    Sayana does not know, just like he really does not know the Veda's internal history or kingdoms, etc., which I suppose makes it easy for someone to inject *any* story about them. We will refrain from that, and start with what the Veda forces us to find out.

    At the same time, we must consider that Bharata, Pururavas, and Prthu probably were not human beings.

    They are spiritual allegories that inspired and motivated their "sons". Nahusa probably was such a person, even though he may already be a memory by the time of Book Six.

    Similarly, the Sages move from the subjective to the objective plane, and there is no way to consider Bharadwaj as being the first. It is likely that parts of Atharva Veda and Krsna Yajur Veda are older than him. I would say what we have is Atharva Veda with Trayi or the Rks, Samans, and Yajurs split off as branches of learning modes. The Atharvan is the knowledge holder or accomplished yogi, who thereby becomes gifted at "atharva" or "explanation".

    For Atharvan's disciple Dadhyan, what happens is that we unlace this extraordinarily cryptic statement from Brahmanda Purana with symbolic Bharata:

    Quote The good son of Brahmadattāgni (the fire handed over by Brahmā) is well known by the name Bharata. Vaiśvānara was his son, and he carried Havya for a hundred years.

    ŚBr. (Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa) I.4.2.2 explains that Agni is called Bharata as he supplies Havya to gods.

    9-10. Formerly the fire Edhiti was gathered by Atharvan in the ocean Puṣkara. Hence that secular fire is Ātharvaṇa. Darpahā is remembered as the son of Atharvan. Bhṛgu was born as Atharvan and Fire is remembered as Ātharvaṇa (son of Atharvan). Hence the secular fire is considered Dadhyaṅ, the son of Atharvaṇa.

    11. Pavamāna, the son of Atharvan, is remembered by the wise as one that should be generated by churning.

    Although more detailed in the New Books, Dadhyan is a significant contributor to Atharva Veda, as well as already being himself in the Rg Veda Old Books. The Puranic passage is quite close to the first Rg Vedic instance where Pushkara = Lotus in VI.16:

    “The sage, Atharvan, extracted you from upon the lotus-leaf, the head, the support of the universe.”

    “The ṛṣi, Dadhyañc, the son of Atharvan, kindled the slayer of Vṛtra, the destroyer of the cities of Asuras.”

    Dadhyan is invoked first and in every line by Vasistha's VII.44, particularly with Ila Devi. This sounds meaningful to the lineage of Aila Vartas or that the "Lunar Dynasty" is perhaps really the "Earth Dynasty".


    ......in the Vedic stream of the Bharatas, the school of Prajapatya Vaishvamitras instituted instituted a rite to commemorate the twelve month year also known as Prajapati. The end of the year was marked symbolically by the beheading of Prajapati by Rudra. The restoration of his head in the new year was through the surgery of the Ashvins. The myth of the cephalic surgery on Prajapati and Dadhici served as the fusion point of these rites during the early settlement of the Bharatas in the sub-continent. This resulted in the Pravargya rite which marks the restoration of the head of yajña or the Prajapati also called Makha’s head in the Brahmana literature.

    Pravargya worship is thus associated with Dadhici (also known as Dadhyanc – dadhya ‘curd’ PLUS anch (ams’a?) ‘parts’). Dadhici is associated with the making of the weapon called ‘vajra’ from his bones. Dadhici is the son of sage Atharvan. Dadhici’s son was Pippalada. Dadhici is a master of Brahmavidya or Madhuvidya.

    These Sages must have transmitted something through Pururavas that became the Arya system.


    If Pururavas had developed a system centuries before the first recorded events, then, no, there was no need of writing anything down about it.

    Pururavas is merely named in I.31 where, with the Bhasya or commentary, it is evident that he is indeed the Vedic system.

    “You, Agni, has announced heaven to Manu; you have more than requited Purūravas doing homage to you. When you are set free by the attrition of your parents, they bear you first to the east, then to the west (of the altar).”

    Allusion to the agency of Purūravas, the son of Budha or Soma to generate fire by attrition and to emply in three sacrificial fires: sukṛte sukṛttaraḥ, doing more good to him who did good; the fires is first used to kindle the āhavanīya fire and then the gārhapatya

    Similarly for his Mother:

    Taittiriya Brahmana 1-1-4-4

    Ida, the daughter of Manu, was a revealer of sacrifice. She heard, ‘The Asuras are placing fire’... Ida said to Manu, ‘I shall so place thy fire that thou shalt increase in offspring, cattle and twins; thou shalt be firmly established in the world and shalt conquer the heavenly word’. She first placed the Garhapatya fire. It was through the Garhapatya she produced for him offspring.

    Mandala Ten has the Hymn of Pururavas and Urvashi:

    Quote It is the first Indo-European love-story known, and may even be the oldest love-story in the world. Its history throughout the whole range of Sanskrit literature is astonishing. The story itself can be regarded from several points of view—all of them interesting. Firstly, it is a tale of a great love, full of deep feeling and real pathos. Its beauty is quite sufficient to immortalise it, whatever else we may read in it. Secondly, it contains incidents which strike one as distinctly symbolical, and immediately open up that ever-fascinating pursuit of theorising. Thirdly, it has a distinct historical and anthropological value, and is without doubt the earliest example of nuptial taboo in existence.

    So, he did not write the hymn and people started talking about a new thing; he wrote it towards something already known.

    He is still used to teach the magic of Agni and Ashwattha.

    Here, we have not been able to distinguish Arya symbolism from IVC pottery at Nausharo ca. 2,300 B. C. E., which bears the Fig or Pipal leaves and a few kinds of Bull. But we forbid ourselves the opportunity to say those words match this art.

    Aurobindo translates him as:

    the mind of many cries (lit. to Manu Pururavas)

    contrasted with Nahusa who is called "mortal"

    according to, [Nirukta, by Yāska x, 46] he is one of the beings belonging to the middle region of the universe

    The "Lunar" branch is not of "different origin" than the "Solar", but the daughter's descent:

    Pururavas was the son of Budha (himself often described as the son of Soma) and the gender-switching deity Ila (born as the daughter of Manu).

    "Manu" here might be mind, or the sun--perhaps both--but it isn't a person. Next is the Planetary Intelligences of Mercury and Earth. Then this Pururavas is born, who marries a Nymph, and they probably still live in the middle heaven. Their son is Life who is probably still not incarnate.

    Yajur Veda Kanda I:

    d O Brihaspati, guard wealth.
    e Let thy oblations taste sweet.
    f O god Tvastr make pleasant our possessions.
    g Stay, ye wealthy ones,
    h Thou art the birthplace of Agni.
    i Ye are the two male ones.
    k Thou art Urvaçi, thou art Ayu, thou art Pururavas.

    Brahmanda Purana on Sages:

    Manu the son of Vivasvan (Sun) and King Pururavas
    the son of Ila, these two excellent Ksatriyas should be known
    as expounders of Mantras.

    9-11. The preceptor of those who sing Saman Mantras
    is King Pururavas, the son of Ila.' Forty-six other sages, together
    with their disciples are also Srutarsis.


    Aurobindo did not pick up on RV I.31 because if you wanted to make a "first man" argument, it is exactly in this place. This is speaking of Nahusa the individual, or else the "generations of Nahusa", who is a critically important patriarch. There is the clear statement of Agni as the Ayu of Nahusa in I.31.11:

    tvām ǀ agne ǀ prathamam ǀ āyum ǀ āyave ǀ devāḥ ǀ akṛṇvan ǀ nahuṣasya ǀ viśpatim ǀ

    iḷām ǀ akṛṇvan ǀ manuṣasya ǀ śāsanīm ǀ pituḥ ǀ yat ǀ putraḥ ǀ mamakasya ǀ jāyate ǁ

    The gods made thee, O Agni , the first, living for a living, the Lord of creatures, of man; {they} made Ila  a tutoress of man, when my son  is born from the father .

    Nahuṣa was the son of Āyus, son of Purūravas, who was elevated to heaven as an Indra. Iḷā institutes the first rules of performing sacrifices, hence she is Śāsanī = dharmopadeśakartrī, the giver of instruction in duty.

    From Ayus, it would appear the first human generation is Nahusa. He is variable; but in the Rg Veda, there is King Nahusa at the Sarasvati River, VII.95; similarly in VII.6.5; may also be an expression of Age; and may be an aggregate expression of mankind or humanity.

    Among the older Rg Vedic references to him:

    06.026.07d 11 trivárūthena náhuṣā šaviṣṭha

    07.006.05c 11 sá nirúdhyā náhuṣo yahvó agnír

    05.012.06d 11 prasársrāṇasya náhuṣasya šéṣaḥ

    So if he appears in any later books, he may be a "namesake" or a "II", unless it can be verified this first one is meant.

    I am not sure it has a "Harivamsa" or "Chandra Vamsa" or "Lunar Dynasty", but it does have Nahusa more closely descended from Ila, who looks, originally, like the real name of the lineage.

    Before "Lunar Dynasty" it may have been Earth as in the example of Prayaga:

    ...capital of the Aila Purūravas on the north bank of the Yamunā.

    “[The Goddess] went to Devīkoṭa, (arriving there) in a moment, and with a powerful look (āloka) (it became a sacred site. Then she went to) Aṭṭahāsa, (so called) because she laughed (there) loudly. (Then she went to) Kolāgiri, Ujjenī, Prayāga, Varṇā (i.e. Vārāṇasī), Viraja, Ekāmra and other (places) and (then on to) another universe”.

    Harṣa’s assemblies at Prayāga, every five years, speak of the religious sanctity of the place and the benevolent attitude of the emperor.

    Prayaga (प्रयग) is a synonym (another name) for the Horse (Aśva)

    In Brahmanda Purana Chapter Two, Pururavas is overcome by greed and killed.

    That does not mean he does not share an important teaching in Chapter Twenty-eight:

    1. O Sūta! King Purūravas, the son of Ilā, used to go to the heaven on the New Moon day in every month. How was it? How did he propitiate the Pitṛs (Manes).

    If those pieces go together correctly, it would mean that Pururavas established both of the main kinds of rites, i. e. Fire Offering for Agni/Svaha, as well as Soma/Sraddha/Pitrs. Chapter Two depicts Ayus as causing Pitrs' Offering and all the rest to be performed. The ultimate question of this Assembly is to Vayu who explains himself as the Maruts and Prana.

    He is considered to have transmigrated to the Regency of Mercury, and is mantrified accordingly.

    Compared to Hermes, etc., yes that would sound significant as "one initiator" of humanity.

    An idea from Pathak 1920 on Astrology:

    [Draco] was called
    Nahush by the ancient Indo-Aryans and was figured, as if
    it was riding on a chariot, vide Rig Veda III-53-6 & VIII-46-27;. The constellation of Bears aud Auriga were then
    named chariot and charioteer respectively.

    I have not been able to personally verify that.

    Next--and part of why I want to be able to break apart these Rg Vedic timelines--is because Nahusa and descendants are "repeated" in the Epics and Puranas which looks misleading, but to some extent they are already repeated in the Veda.

    From the Son of Ila, one line of descent is Pururavas, Ayu, Nahusha, Yayati:

    Yayati (Contemporary to Demon King Vrishparva) had two wives and five sons. Yadu, Turvasu, Druhyu, Anu and King Puru were the five sons of Yayati. Devayani and Sharmishtha were the two wives of Yayati. Yayati, later, became the most powerful ruler of his era.

    Another more important descent is Pururavas-->Emperor Bharata, by whom the term "Lunar Dynasty" seems to be applied. Meaning that, intended to be a human, a Bharata II is usually placed at the beginning of the Kuru era before Mahabharata, and called Lunar Dynasty.

    The extensive Lunar Kings lists are very extensive. But in a concise and relevant beginning:

    Yadu was the Founder of Yadu Dynasty and Yadava Kingdom (contemporary of God Parashurama)

    Yadu had five sons, Sahasrada, Payoda, Kroshtu, Nila and Anjika. Yaduvamsa was hourned by all royal saints.

    Sahasrada had three righteous sons Haihaya, Haya and Venuhaya. In the kingdom of the Haihayas there was a descendant Kanka whose sons where well known as Kritavirya, Kritouja, Kritavarma and Kritagni. Kritavirya’s son was Arjuna also called Kartaviryarjuna who had worshipped Lord Dattatreya and was blessed with one thousand arms and immense strength. He had defeated many asuras, had performed several sacrifices and ruled his subjects righteously for years. But once when he began to terrorise the sages and religious people in Sage Jamadagni’s ashrama over the desire for a divine cow, he was killed by Parashurama. Kashtriyas who were righteous were spared by Parashurama. Among the Haihaya descendents Shura, Shurasena and Shuravira passed by the name of Haihayas.

    Some escaped by taking shelter with Hingula Mata. After all, she is remote. But she soon becomes quite spiritually influential to India.

    That means Yadu II at the time of Parasurama, because Yadu is at the beginning of VI.45. Some remarks from Talageri's site about Yayati in the late books:

    The Druhyu, Anu, Puru (including the king Bharata, remembered in Book 6), Yadu and Turvasu are there from pre-Rigvedic times.

    Rigveda only refers to these five tribes as "Panchajana".There is no mentioning of these five coming from same father.

    Thereafter, in puranic literature we find they had a common father "Yayati".It seems that the authors of later puranic literature were seeking some sort of cultural unification through these stories, just like the story of "Manu Vaivasvat" and his ten sons.


    “May the gods who, (coming) from afar proclaim their affinity (with men), and beloved by men, (support) the generations of (Manu, the son of) Vivasvat; may they who are seated on the sacred grass of Yayāti, the son of Nahuṣa, speak favourably unto us.”


    “Pure Agni, who goes about (to receive oblations), go in your presence to the hall of sacrifice, as did Manu, and Aṅgiras, and Yayāti, and others of old; bring hither the divine personages, seat them on the sacred grass, and offer them grateful (sacrifice).”

    the composers of sukta IX.101: Andhīgu Śyāvāśvi (1–3), Yayāti Nāhuṣa (4–6), Nahuṣa Mānava (7–9).

    Here, we just want to point out that it appears very important that there is some kind of mental descent from Mother Earth and Life into mortal man, which is the main meaning, and we can figure out the descent through the rest of the Mandalas.

    The "second wave" of the late books has probably mixed up this later use of "Manu" in the descent:

    Samvarana -- Manu--- Nahusa-- Yayati-- Madhavi-- Viswamitra and so on.


    First of all we want to deny this was an actual place or kingdom, but is an Atharva Veda symbol for the human aura.

    This adjunct dynasty, the Solar, may perhaps resemble its namesake a little more closely.

    Not the personal name "Sugar Cane". There is nothing in Rg Veda that personalizes Iksvaku at all, but there are multiple Clan or Sage lines that are named for Manu.

    It does involve Mandhatri X.134 or perhaps Chakravartin. Mandhatri, an Ikshvaku ruler, is described in the Rigveda to have annihilated the Dasyus, and seeks the help of the Ashvin twins, the divine physicians of the Vedic religion.

    As per Ramayana:

    Vashistha, the family priest of the dynasty of Ikshvaku...

    Vasistha says:

    Manu, who life to mortals gave,
    Begot Ikshváku good and brave.
    First of Ayodhyá's kings was he,
    Pride of her famous dynasty.

    comparing the lineage of Rama:

    02. Ikshvaku (originally Rishabha, became Ikshvaku after surviving with SugarCane juice)

    03. Bharata : He is the son of King Rishabha and founder of the Sun Dynasty (Suryavansha). Among the hundred sons of king Ikshvaku, Bharata is the eldest one. Because he has very broad chest of a warrior, he was also called as Kushki. Ikshvaku‘s another son, named Nimi, founded the Videha dynasty.

    04. Vikukshi (Shashad) (he who eats the meat of a rabbit so he named Shashad) (contemporary to King Pururava who was founder of Chandravansh)

    05. Baan (contemporary to 2nd Chandravanshi King Aayu andVijaya-1)

    06. Kakutstha (Puranjaya or Indrahomi or Indravahu) ruled 10,900 years (contemporary to 2nd Chandravanshi King Aayu)

    07. Anena (Anaranya or Suyodhana) (contemporary to 3rd Chandravanshi King Nahusha)

    08. Prithu (contemporary to 4th Chandravanshi King Yayati and demon king Vrushaparva)

    09. Vishvarandhri (Vishvagandhi or Vishvamshaha) (contemporary to 5th Chandravanshi King Yadu, Puru, Suhotra)

    However, Mandhata is represented by the Trksi or tribe and descendants. Mandala VI therefor speaks of an alliance of Nahusa tribes, Trksi, and Puru.

    Mandhāta is clearly a distant ancestral king in this line, since he is not referred to in any contemporary sense.

    They say that the Trksis are interpolated into the Old Books, and misunderstanding this has caused "Indologists" to believe they were Purus. It is, so to speak, an honorific tribute to the Solar kings.

    Quote Mandhātā (half a Pūru himself) had reason to be friendly with the Pūrus, who were his maternal relations.

    The Puranic accounts of the Ikṣvāku dynasty associate all the early kings with the east, but in the case of Mandhātā, they relate his movement westwards in support of his Pūru kinsmen who were under assault from the Druhyus to their west in a pre-Rigvedic period.

    Later, Mandhātā returned to his own kingdom in the east, and there is little record in traditional history of the activities of his successor kings in the east having much to do with the northwest (until the much later period of the Epics). However, it is clear that some of his descendants remained in the northwest and originated a new northwestern branch of Tṛkṣi or Ikṣvāku kings distinct from the eastern ones.

    Thus the Ramayana genealogy omits many kings, such as Purukutsa, Trasadasyu, Hariśchandra and Rohita, who are well-known in Vedic literature as Aikshvāku kings.

    Purukutsa and Trasadasyu were not known to the eastern traditions as ancestors of Rama, because they were not ancestors of Rama: they were kings of the northwestern branch of the Ikṣvākus.

    ...the Puranas retain lists of all the Ikṣvāku kings, while the Vedic texts name only kings from the northwestern branch line, and the eastern traditions (though also in the manner of the Puranic records) name only kings from the main eastern line.

    RV X.60 is not to a deity, it is to King Asamati , and combines this "manu person" with an article "who/which/that":


    which is more like the expression "yonder sun".

    Rg Veda clearly does not say that Ikshvaku is the son of Manu who landed in the mountains with a boat.

    Asamati Rathpraushta had for his priests, the Gaupayanas. The Gaupayanas were sons of the sister of Agastya, according to RV 10.60.6.

    It is highly probable that Agastya might have managed to secure the priestly offices for his nephews given his friendship with the Vasiṣṭha of Sudasa’s time, which was immortalized in the seventh book of RV as mythology when both Vasiṣṭha and Agastya were said to have been born of the joint deity, Mitra-Varuna (RV 7.33.10).

    Where Talageri says Iksvaku is the Sun, a list of "Seven Solar Kings" beginning with Mandhata may be derived:







    The rest of the kings are clearly kings contemporary to the period of the New Books.

    among the later references:

    The composer is Nābhāka Kāṇva: incidentally, in the Ikṣvāku dynastic lists in both the Puranas and Epics, Nābhāga is the name of one of the far descendants of Mandhātā. In VIII.40.12, he positions himself close to Mandhata or at least related.

    Here is actually a Vedic "code" for two dynasties:

    Quote Trtsu and Trksi are found only in the Rigveda, and they clearly refer to the Bharatas and the Iksvakus respectively.

    Ikṣvāku are referred to in the Rigveda by another name: as the Tṛkṣi: this word is found twice in the Rigveda: VI.46.8; VIII.22.7.

    The first reference, VI.46.8, is one of those directional references which names tribes as references of direction. The two verses VI.46.7-8 are as follows:

    "All the manly powers of the Nahuṣa Tribes, all the Glory of the Five Tribes, bring it together, O Indra!
    All the Strength with Trikṣi, with Druhyu, and with Pūru, bestow it all on us, O Indra, that we may conquer all our enemies in battle".

    Purukutsa and/or Trasadasyu

    Quote It is clear therefore that the 4 interpolated references in the Old Books are special memorial references to the two Tṛkṣi kings of the period of the New Books, who saved the Bharata Pūrus or the Pūrus in general from total defeat and destruction in some unspecified wars. They were inserted into the Old Books by late composers of the respective families since the Old Books represented the special period of the Bharata Pūrus.





    Verse IV.38.1 is definitely totally out of place in the hymn. Hymns 38-40 are hymns in praise of Dadhikrās, the deified war-horse, and this one verse, out of the 21 verses in the three hymns, is the only verse which stands out from the other 20 verses in deifying Trasadasyu (who is not mentioned at all in the other verses) rather than Dadhikrās.

    IV.42.8-9 twice refers to Trasadasyu as an ardhadeva or "demi-god", an extraordinarily adulatory phrase found nowhere else in the Vedic texts. It glorifies his birth in a manner reminiscent of the glorification of the birth of later divine heroes not only in India but all over the world, but without parallel in the Rigveda: the Seven Great Sages (sapta ṛṣi) gather together, Purukutsa's wife gives oblations to Indra and Varuṇa, and the two Gods are pleased to reward her with the birth of Trasadasyu "the demi-god, the slayer of the foe-men".

    In the case of IV.42.8-9: the idea of Seven Sages (sapta ṛṣi), is a very late one, common in the Atharvaveda, but otherwise found in the Rigveda only in two verses in the very late Book 10...

    Another divine war horse, named in two late verses, I.89.6 and X.33.4, is named Tārkṣya, which is literally derived from the name Tṛkṣi: i.e. "of the Tṛkṣi".

    He has a literal belief in Soma and thinks there is a Tamil Agastya. Does not seem to be aware that Mahi = Bharati in some Apri Hymns. Or that the Sages are not only called "Rishis", particularly "vipra" and also "hotr", it is not a late idea, it is an old one said to go back through all ages.

    What he is saying is that Mandhata was in the northwest a long time ago, and left progeny, who were not named until:

    Purukutsa, Trasadasyu and their descendants in the Rigveda were late descendants, in the period of the New Books of the Rigveda, belonging to this northwestern branch.

    Allright. He has more details, but, for the time being, it seems like he may be correct, the Ikshvakus have been somewhat deified by being written in to Old Books. Exactly what happened, if, they were allies and neighbors, but not important enough to be eulogized, where do we find them?

    Trasadasyu: V.27.3; 33.8; Paurukutsa: V.33.8

    Trivṛṣan: V.27.1

    Tryaruṇa: V.27.1-3.
    Trasadasyu: V.27.3.

    and then on through the late books.

    Drawing from his chronology, it implies to me, at least, this middle time period represents the conquering of Himachal Pradesh and therefor the first instance where Aryas physically emigrate into the Kullu Valley and Manali. Something really did happen there, because this different atmosphere readily visible in Book Five is Atreya and Kasyapa bringing out of Manali an advanced system including Atharva Veda, and most likely settling Dwarka. Kasyapa is called both Tarksya and Manu Vaivasvata, and seems to be particularly valued for hymns on Soma.

    If Sambar was a Kiratic king knocked out of the way, our hunch is that remnants of his legion eventually entered Nepal and became Kirat Kings beginning with Yalambar. Kiratic history could tangibly place him at around 1779 B. C. E..

    If the above constitutes the revived "Ikshvaku Dynasty", and, Kasyapa is personally Manu Vaivasvata, perhaps the timing makes sense.

    In the late Solar Dynasty, where one finds names like Divodas and Sudas being re-used, one finds in IX.96, Pratardana Kasi Raja, which again may even be a symbolic Kasi. And again, he must also be separated from a prior namesake in VI.26:

    Kṣatraśrī, the son of Pratardana

    This hymn also includes Kutsa, Atithigvan, Vrsabha, and Nahusa.

    There is the earlier Kutsa Arjuneya and a later Kutsa Angirasa, for whom Talageri observes:

    The Vārṣāgira battle is described in the Kutsa upa-maṇḍala of Book 1 (I.94-115). This is the only part of the New Books which maintains a historical continuity with the ethos of the period of the Old Books. It may be noted that the word Bharata itself, which is otherwise found only in the Family Books 2-7, is found in only one place in the non-Family Books (Books 1,8-10): in the Kutsa upa-maṇḍala, in I.96.3.

    while dealing with potential interpolations such as:

    words where the r is replaced by l (playoga and pulu for prayoga and puru)

    and explaining that *many* old words which were generic, become names in the New Books. Something like "Adrighu" becomes a person or deity, and yes, this seems to be the case. But this is the whole issue starting from "Asva". It may not have been "modern horse" but meant "something that goes fast". So as well as names obviously being repeated, we must watch because many names were generic words or adjectives, and many generic words may have had a different meaning.

    By this analysis, we would strongly suggest that "Purukutsa" did not live until Book Five, whereas "Kutsa" was a legendary figure in Book Six, who is both re-told, and used as a namesake for at least one later individual.

    People think the Puranas give useful information on pre-Vedic history, but those names are all late Sanskrit of the New Books, and, they are oblivious to the scene as given by Bharadwaj. In just that one hymn, he rattles off multiple careers that must have been known to all, and you will never find anything about this.

    Oppositely, in the Rg Veda you do not find this next one.

    The astrological work Surya Siddhanta places this person second to only the Seven Sages:

    "The royal sage Trishanku, our paternal grand father, born in the high-souled Ikshvaku dynasty, is purely shining (as a star) in front, along with his family-priest."

    Trisanku becomes the Southern Cross in:

    Rāmāyaṇa i, 57 (59 G.)

    So it is in Bala Kand which is most likely an interpolation to Ramayana (its first and last chapters are probably later additions).

    Along with Mandhata, there is also the legendary Prthu involved in the lineage of Trisanku:

    Trishanku was a King in the Solar dynasty, the son of Prithu. His original name was Satyavrata. His son was Dhundumara. Satyavrata committed three sins, and hence he got the name Trishanku. First, while a prince, he misbehaved in the kingdom and was temporarily exiled. Next, he killed the milch cow of his perceptor Vasishta. His third sin was that he used the unsanctified meat of his kill as food.

    He wished to ascend to heaven in his mortal body, and asked his perceptor Vasishta to do the needful rights. Vasishta refused, for it was against the laws of nature. He then approached the sons of Vasishta. They were angry that the King had asked them, deeming it an insult to their father, so the cursed the King to become afflicted with a debilitating disease.

    He, therefore, called them cowardly and impotent, and was, in return for these insults, cursed and degraded by them to be a Chāṇḍāla. While he was in this wretched condition, Viśvāmitra, whose family Triśaṅku had in times of famine laid under deep obligations, undertook to celebrate the sacrifice, and invited all the gods to be present. They, however, declined; whereupon the enraged Viśvāmitra. by his own power lifted up Triśaṅku to the skies with his cherished mortal body. He began to soar higher and higher till his head struck against the vault of the heaven, when he was hurled down head-foremost by Indra and the other gods. The mighty Viśvāmitra, however, arrested him in his downward course, saying 'Stay Triśaṅku', and the unfortunate monarch remained suspended with his head towards the earth as a constellation in the southern hemisphere. Hence the wellknown proverb:-त्रिशङ्कुरिवान्तरा तिष्ठ (triśaṅkurivāntarā tiṣṭha) Ś.2.]


    Satyavrata (s.v): the son of Tribandhana and father of Hariścandra


    Triśaṅku (त्रिशङ्कु).—(SATYAVRATA, MATAṄGA). A celebrated King of the Solar dynasty. Genealogy. Descending in order from Brahmā—Marīci—Kaśyapa—Vivasvān—Vaivasvata Manu—Ikṣvāku—Vikukṣi—Śaśāda—Purañjaya (Kakutstha)-Anenas—Pṛthulāśva—Prasenajit, Yuvanāśva—Māndhātā—Purukutsa—Trasadasyu—Anaraṇya—Haryaśva Vasumanas—Sudhanvā—Trayyāruṇa—Satyavrata (Triśaṅku).

    Brahmanda Purana section with Trisanku

    We see why that can't work for at least a couple reasons, such as you would have to put a 300 year gap between Mandhata and Purukutsa. Or, you might cut most of it out and say Marici and Kasyapa Vaivasvata Manu were influential Sages around the time of Purukutsa.

    Obviously, it harps on the real conflict between Visvamitra and Vasistha.

    King Prthu was already a legend in VI.27:

    Quote In aid of Abhyavartin Cayamana, Indra destroyed the seed of Varasikha.
    At Hariyupiya he smote the vanguard of the Vrcivans, and the rear fled frighted.

    He, whose two red Steers, seeking goodly pasture, plying their tongues move on' twixt earth and heaven,
    Gave Turvasa to Srnjaya, and, to aid him, gave the Vrcivans up to Daivavata.

    Two wagon-teams, with damsels, twenty oxen, O Agni, Abhyavartin Cayamana,
    The liberal Sovran, giveth me. This guerdon of Prthu's seed is hard to win from others.

    He is also an author in X.148, or, i. e. most likely inspirational towards someone who took on his personage, pṛthurvainyaḥ.

    The story of Pṛthu and his milking of the earth is a Purāṇic transformation of the Vedic conception of milking of the Virāj cow. The Virāj Sūkta (AV. VIII 10) forms the basis of the Purāṇic legend. This purāṇic legend records the right of the sages (public leaders) to do away with a wilful tyrant.

    So the Puranic list includes two pre-Vedic legends as well as the Brahmanical conflict, which is where it is at least clear this "family" wants to be associated with Vasistha. If this has any historical merit, it would almost certainly have to be the one at Pushkar, Rajasthan. The Rg Veda never deals with much more than the southern frontier, while Ramayana is about going far south.

    Prthu is a pre-Vedic legend; Trisanku is not found.


    This mystical ancestor is mentioned in VII.8.4 which talks about “Bharata’s Agni” conquering the (other) Pūru-s, and VII.18.13 which talks about conquering “in sacrifice” the scornful Pūru-s (who failed to come to the aid of the Bharatas in the Battle of the Ten Kings).

    Bhāratī, the deity of the Bharata subtribe of the Pūru-s is one of the three Great Goddesses (like Sarasvati) praised in the family hymns of all the ten families of composers in the Rigveda. Of those ten families of composers, while nine are priestly families, the tenth is a family exclusively consisting of composers from the royal dynasty of the Bharata subtribe of the Pūru-s, whose āprī sūkta is X.70.

    The major line of Bharata-descended kings are:

    Devavāta, Sṛñjaya, Divodāsa, Sudās,

    Sahadeva and Somaka.

    The Rigveda in its Old Books (Books 6,3,7,4,2) was a Book of

    the Bharata Pūrus.

    More or less. They eclipse the other Purus-or-Aryas, and defeat the rival Tribes of Nahusa, starting in the first Battle of Hariyupiya:

    The Turvasus and the Yadus (Vṛcīvants) appear to have

    invaded up to Haryana, and the Bharata Pūrus (under

    Sṛñjaya) and their western neighbours the Anus (under the

    Pārthava king Abhyāvartin Cāyamāna) jointly defeated the

    Turvasus and Yadus.

    • This battle is important only because it shows that in the

    early period, the Bharata Pūrus and the Anus were allies, in

    contrast to the situation in later times. Also it explains early

    references to Haryana (Lake Manusha) in the Avesta.

    I would say that is far from the only reason it is important. "Hariyupiya" is again most likely a symbolic name where what is being revealed are the magic powers of Indra, not the military might of some new coalition.

    I would argue that Hariyupiya is about Magic Indra in about the same way I would say Mahayana is about Magic Buddha.

    And so this was fought by Srnjaya, most likely the first concrete actor of them all, who may be mentioned with his real father, Devavata. I am not terribly sure. Talageri is perfunct at calling this lineage the "Bharata Purus" and he never tells me who is Bharata? Isn't this important if he is some first emperor, founder of a cultural legacy, or something? What is going on??

    That is because Emperor Bharata is Nemo or No One:

    Quote The Rig Veda knows of him only as an ancestor of contemporary dynasties, tribes and clans. There is nothing in the Rig Veda about Bharata the person, let alone Bharata the emperor. There is absolutely no mention of any wars that he may have fought, enemies that he vanquished or territories annexed, not even the wealth he may have amassed or gifted (as danastutis). But nevertheless, he was important, for what reason we do not know, but he was important. For every family of priests that represent the composers of Mandala II to VII, seem eager to showcase their association and allegiance to a descendant of the Bharatas. There are several references to “sons of Bharatas” or where contemporary kings or chiefs are referred to as a “Bharata”, always suggestive of a virtue or praise.

    So why Bharata and why not someone else? Clearly, Bharata must have been an extraordinary person of his time, that his name echoes throughout the Rig Veda. Unfortunately, there is nothing in the Rig Veda that reveals what made him extraordinary.

    We don't know.

    He is unavoidably an honored name in the beginning, as in VI.16:

    tvām | īḷe | adha | dvitā | bharataḥ | vāji-bhiḥ | šunam | īje | yajñeṣu | yajñiyam

    Thee, too, hath Bharata of old, with mighty men, implored for bliss.
    And worshipped thee the worshipful.

    and then in some cases, the translation slips off of any significance:

    pra | devam | deva-vītaye | bharata | vasuvit-tamam | ā | sve | yonau | ni | sīdatu

    In Jatavedas kindle ye the dear guest who hath now appeared
    In a soft place, the homestead's Lord. [?]


    yā́bhiḥ kṛšā́num ásane duvasyátho javé yā́bhir yū́no árvantam ā́vatam
    mádhu priyám bharatho yát saráḍbhyas tā́bhir ū ṣú ūtíbhir ašvinā́ gatam

    Wherewith ye served Krsanu where the shafts were shot, and helped the young man's horse to swiftness in the race;
    Wherewith ye bring delicious honey to the bees, -- Come hither unto us, O Asvins, with those aids.


    árcad vṛ́ṣā vṛ́ṣabhiḥ svéduhavyair mṛgó nā́šno áti yáj juguryā́t
    prá mandayúr manā́ṃ gūrta hótā bhárate máryo mithunā́ yájatraḥ

    Let the Bull sing with Bulls whose toil is worship, with a loud roar like some wild beast that hungers.
    Praised God! the glad priest brings his heart's devotion; the holy youth presents twofold oblation.

    I don't know who Emperor Bharata is, and again in this case we essentially take someone's power by taking his wife.

    In Buddhism we certainly retain Goddess Bharati:

    [according to] to [Nirukta, by Yāska viii, 13] a daughter of Āditya

    In fact she is The Vessel, the "most important point to get" in Mahamudra.

    Reading between the lines, we find there is no such thing as Bharata Gotra any more. In other words, it was a lineage of royalty, which fell out of power or perished. Bharatas being the dominant Purus of whom the Rg Veda is about, here is vocabulary that formed under their influence:

    The Rigveda itself, in no uncertain terms, identifies the PUrus in VIII.64.10 with mankind: PUrave mAnave jane.

    In fact, the Rigveda goes so far as to coin a word PUruSa/PuruSa (descendant of PUru) for man, on the lines of the word manuSa (descendant of Manu).

    While the word ManuSa for man is representative of a general Indo-European word with counterparts in other Indo-European branches (Germanic, as in English man), the word PUruSa/PuruSa is purely Rigvedic in origin: the word is found in the Rigveda in 28 verses, of which 17 are found in the late MaNDala X. Of the 11 verses in the other nine MaNDalas, 9 are by the priests of SudAs and his descendant Somaka (i.e. by ViSvAmitra, VasiSTha, Kutsa and VAmadeva). The word, therefore, was clearly coined during the period of SudAs, and gained increasing currency during the period of composition of the Rigvedic hymns.

    Ok--that would mean it is a vehicle for developing an Upanishadic philosophy, which is not readily apparent because the hymns are mostly praise.

    The existing Sage Gotras span the spectrum of dedicated to hostile, i. e. such as Viswamitra, and some are not really Arya such as:

    ...in I.117.3, where Atri is characterised as pAñcajanya (belonging to all the five tribes).

    Concerning the Solar Dynasty:

    Purukutsa and Trasadasyu are eulogised to the skies by the priestly families affiliated to the Bharatas, for their rescue-act performed for the PUrus. A VAmadeva even calls Trasadasyu an ardhadeva or demi-god (IV.42.8, 9). But nowhere is either Purukutsa or Trasadasyu called an Arya.

    So the main core of the Veda is the Bharata Purus and then we find their Gotra lineage spontaneously disappears, along with, perhaps, knowledge of the Vedas themselves. These Bharatas must have been well-known to all, and then the Epic throws everything into confusion with Bharata II:

    The Kuru clan was formed (c. 1200 – c. 900 BCE) as a result of the alliance and merger between the Bharata and other Puru clans.

    The Kurus figure prominently in Vedic literature after the time of the Rigveda.

    Atharvaveda (XX.127) praises Pariksit, the "King of the Kurus", as the great ruler of a thriving, prosperous realm.

    A historical Kuru King named Dhritarashtra Vaichitravirya is mentioned in the Kathaka Samhita of the Yajurveda (c. 1200–900 BCE) as a descendant of the Rigvedic-era king Sudas.

    Within the frame story of the Mahabharata, the historical kings Pariksit and Janamejaya are featured significantly as scions of the Kuru clan.

    It seems the Epic is attempting to bond itself in some way to what was probably public domain or common knowledge in the late Vedic period and the kings of Book Ten, and disengage with the rest of it.

    Then the whole Bharata system that is in the Rg Veda is replaced by that of the Kurus.

    With some prestidigitation, Bharata, descendant of Sudas, becomes part of a new universe of hundreds of Devas and Sages with all sorts of ancient humanity. Considerably above and beyond what is in the Vedas.

    Tacitly, the Rg Veda is admitting that Bharadwaj is certainly not the first Sage. This credit goes to Atharvan and Angiras. Buddha was an Angiras, so, if you are Buddhist, this gives you a link to the actual Rishi Gotra. And so if we look at the Atharva Veda system, it includes Dadhyan, was emphasized by Atreya and Kasyapa who most likely acted as Manu Vaivasvata exporting a system from Manali to Dwarka, and, the text continues to accrete until it picks up a Kuru king.

    The Rg Veda is "within" this, and, uses Tvastr in a significant way in every Book, as well as every Apri Hymn.

    When understood as a chronology, it appears that ideas that must have been known and discussed were given a final form. Or, perhaps it was a matter of selecting the best quality hymn. In the late books, we find a female Sage using the majority of a hymn to explain to us that Soma is symbolic. In the last book, you have the whole story of Pururavas--which is a bit unusual since most hymns say very little about any persons. It sounds selectively purposeful to use this, while it is hard to imagine that none had been written before. Similarly, the subject of Creation is only given at the end, which occurs in multiple levels. There is Hiranyagarbha which is the mental world and subtle body, and there is Purusha and Devi. Out of all the hymns it would be hard to say the most powerful one is not Vak Devi.

    This one addresses both the problem and the meaning.

    One line from the Purusha Suktam has been taken out of context to be the "Vedic basis" for the caste system.

    Then we can only imagine why public knowledge of the Veda faded away and there would be a system that Buddha would criticize. He could have used his Princely power to make a Reformed Vedic Church or something, but he hasn't. He does however place a positive value on the Sages and their mantras.

    And it turns out there is something that has been "kept", or, forms a part of popular practice, which is the next layer of literature or history for schools of mantra. As per R Harish:

    1. Firstly, as mentioned earlier, it is evidently the earliest hymn about a universal mother goddess, from a time much before the conceptualization of the three principal female divinities – Mahalakshmi, Mahasaraswati and Mahakali. To explain, Devi Suktam is from Rig Veda, which is much earlier (perhaps by a thousand years) to Devi Mahatmya/Markandeya Purana and other sources which refer to a universal female deity or a trinity of female deities. Devi Suktam is in fact the vedic basis for Devi Mahatmya. Devi Suktam expounds on the idea that this entire universe emerges from one primeval source, and visualizes this universal power as a female, rather than as a male.

    2. Also, the seer of this hymn is a rishika (a female rishi) by name Vaak. Further, the hymn also relates to a female deity, whose name too is Vaak (literally means speech). It is one of the few hymns where both the seer and the divinity are female. It is also perhaps the only hymn where the seer and the divinity have the same name.

    3. A very unique feature of this hymn is that unlike other hymns, it is not addressed by a seer (rishi) to a divinity (deva). On the contrary, the devi (Vaak) herself explains about her own glory (i.e., atmastuti) in this hymn. It is explained that this hymn was rendered by the rishika (Vaak) in a state of ecstasy, when she had identified herself as being one with the goddess (Vaak), and hence spoke as the goddess herself.

    C Bhattacharya 2021 adds it in a study of Markendaya Purana.

    It can be explained from a fairly lucid discussion including a recent translation:

    Quote This sUktaM is known as Devi SUktaM and is chanted at the conclusion

    of Devi MAhAtmya (Devi SaptashatI) reading.

    This means a full-fledged, so to speak, goddess practice. We would argue the one-line RV I.99 is part of Durga Suktam, which is "bridging" or adds a goddess in to Agni mantras. Here, it means the Puranic Devi made from a fusion of multiple deities, the slayer of Mahishasura. For her, we want to point out the original iconographic form and legend, which is Viraja of Jaipur. This has to do with her acting as half of Satarupa or universal form, or the Androgyne or Ardhanarishvar.

    She has a page under the spelling Biraja, and this is a simple form with a Spear. If there is anything detailed about her, it is the headgear:

    The basic form also has to do with being related to Bhadrakali, Lankesvari, and Bhima.

    One has to read the Devi Mahatmya carefully, but, it does say that Mahalakshmi is the Adi Shakti "who is behind all these shaktis".

    So, we can think of Vak Devi marching forward from the Veda, bringing the pantheon of Tvastr, or i. e. a vastly important deity from pre-Vedic times who seems to have disappeared with the Bharatas. Because this actually is a living tradition, here are some remarks about it:

    Quote "The seer of this famous sukta from RigVeda, Vak, daughter of Rishi

    Ambhrini, having achieved unity with Brahman, the cause of this

    Universe, utters these mantras to express her unity. In me only the

    whole of Universe, illusory and subject to suppression like the

    silver seen in an oyster, seems like existing. The Maya seems to be

    generated as the World by modification. All these described in these

    mantras are generated with aloof Brahman as the basis due to this


    [daughter of Rishi ambhRRiNa = AmbhRRiNI]

    Quote There were many women like

    Gargasya Putri =Gaargi,who learned to recite the Veda from thier father-

    But Vaag AmbhRRiNi was one had the "Dharsana"-in a crude sense- a "creator" and not a "learner" of Veda

    Mantra -just as many other ladies-pointed out by sri.Tony-She was said

    to have the "Siddhi" of moving around the Tri Lokas among the Dieties-


    Quote The Devisukta (RV 10.125) declares that the Goddess is the power

    expressed through all the gods, that they are united in her who

    shines with consciousness, that her presence is all-pervading, that

    she supports all of creation, that she is the source of righteousness

    and the revealer of truth, that she is the source of all worlds, yet

    that she shines transcendent beyond them. Among Shaktas this Vedic

    hymn is held in high esteem and is considered to be the source from

    which the entire Chandi sprang.

    This hymn, though the name vac does not appear in it, is the most

    magnificent chant to this feminine principle, the devi of the supreme

    power, which later on would be known under the name of shakti.

    Vac was before all creation, preexisting before any being came to be.

    It was she who initiated the creative process. The first two stanzas

    require a total immersion into the Vedic world in order for their full

    meaning to be grasped. With a beauty of their own, they say in solemn

    cadences that the Word is not only the First of the whole Vedic

    pantheon, but that she has a unique place, for her nature is not to be

    compared with that of any other being, whether created or uncreated.

    The Word is not only an integral part of the sacrifice; she is also the

    Queen who commands homage in every sphere and who, expressing herself

    under different forms, remains essentially the unique Word that

    preserves the unity of all worship. Vac is the lifegiving principle

    within all beings, even if they do not recognize this fact; she is the

    wind, the breath of life. She is the mother, attentive to the needs of

    both Gods and Men. She bestows her gifts and favors graciously and

    freely. She, existing from all eternity, reveals the Father and for the

    sake of creatures "begets" him who otherwise would remain utterly

    disconnected and nonexistent....."

    Here is the translation with an inter-textual relationship:

    Quote RV.X.71.4:

    'One man hath ne'er seen Vak, and yet he seeth: one

    man hath hearing but hath never heard her.

    But to another hath she shown her beauty as a fond

    well-dressed woman to her husband.

    Her Sacred Formless Form

    I who am one with the totality of existence, consciousness, and bliss

    I wander with all the Gods of the earth, sky, and heaven.

    I am the Sustainer of the Lords of the Sun, the Seas, the Thunder and

    Fire (Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Agni).

    I am the Sustainer of Soma, the ever-flowing mystic Water of the


    that streams through space.

    I am the One who bears fruit for all who seek Divine Love.

    I am the One who offers Grace to those who sacrifice

    and honor the Divine Beings.

    I am the Lady ruling the whole Universe.

    I am the One who brings wealth of joy to my worshippers.

    I am the dominant One among those who are united with

    the Divine Reality.

    In all these various forms I have manifested only Myself, I have


    all the elements of the Universe.

    It is I to whom all the deities give service.

    Whoever consumes Food does so only by my Grace and Power.

    Whoever sees, breathes, hears, utters a cry, receives these

    experiences through my Divine aid.

    Those, who do not know Me in this Power, in this Glory, through their

    ignorance, they fall very low in the levels of existence.

    Therefore, oh learned beings, I teach you this Essential

    Knowledge, which can be gained only through deep faith in Me.

    I shall teach you this Essence of Reality which is followed both by

    human beings and by the gods.

    *Whomsoever I wish to protect, him I protect and make powerful with

    my Grace.

    For he attains the Unity with the Creator and finds the Knowledge that

    is hidden from beyond one's eyes.*

    I am the Creator of all the Spaces that are the progenitors of this


    In the Ocean from which all the beings are born and in all the Waters

    of the mind,

    It is because of Me that the Unity of the spiritual force flows.

    It is I, who fill this whole Universe, touching even the highest


    with my Body.

    When I, the First Cause of the Universe, begin to create

    without any other source impelling me,

    like a self-propelled wind,

    I move forward by my own Volition.

    For, I am beyond both earth and heaven.

    Oh, indeed such is my Glory.

    This is the most ancient statement of the divinity of an incarnate

    being in the literature of the world spoken by a woman.

    We might say it takes the entire set of Vedas to produce this one (1) piece of work.

    The idea is that Honey Doctrine is built in to the pre-Vedic legendry, because it is the only thing close to an identification of the Navagva of the Seven Sages. There are no stories about their pre-incarnations or mental birth from the deity; it does say they have dwelt and practiced this in every age of man.

    Visually, it is as present in IVC Seals and Bhimbetka as it could be. We can't put words in their mouth, but it at least looks like the cultivation of honey, which also became used in brewing.

    If this is a mystical practice among the more knowledgeable Sages who revealed the Vedas, then, the selected hymn is appropriate for practices that focus the Honey Doctrine itself.

    There is a bi-lingual version by R Mishra 2009 from Orissa.

    There is a dual script Devanagari and Roman

    Devi described as Candi or Parashakti with some translations.

    Griffith 1896

    The meaning of the Veda is in the mantra, and we are just learning the context about it. So here is X.125 or Devi Suktam in a listenable format. I have copied the Sanskrit lyrics.

    Several half versions are recorded. There are several versions. You have to call it Aham Rudre, or there are other pieces sharing "devi suktam" for the title. Here is a fairly clear relaxed version.

    aháṃ rudrébhir vásubhiš carāmi
    ahám ādityáir utá višvádevaiḥ
    ahám mitrā́váruṇobhā́ bibharmi
    ahám indrāgnī́ ahám ašvínobhā́
    aháṃ sómam āhanásam bibharmi
    aháṃ tváṣṭāram utá pūṣáṇam bhágam
    aháṃ dadhāmi dráviṇaṃ havíṣmate
    suprāvíye yájamānāya sunvaté
    aháṃ rā́ṣṭrī saṃgámanī vásūnāṃ
    cikitúṣī prathamā́ yajñíyānām
    tā́m mā devā́ ví adadhuḥ purutrā́
    bhū́riṣṭhātrām bhū́ri āvešáyantīm
    máyā só ánnam atti yó vipášyati
    yáḥ prā́ṇiti yá īṃ šṛṇóti uktám
    amantávo mā́ṃ tá úpa kṣiyanti
    šrudhí šruta šraddhiváṃ te vadāmi
    ahám evá svayám idáṃ vadāmi
    júṣṭaṃ devébhir utá mā́nuṣebhiḥ
    yáṃ kāmáye táṃtam ugráṃ kṛṇomi
    tám brahmā́ṇaṃ tám ṛ́ṣiṃ táṃ sumedhā́m
    aháṃ rudrā́ya dhánur ā́ tanomi
    brahmadvíṣe šárave hántavā́ u
    aháṃ jánāya samádaṃ kṛṇomi
    aháṃ dyā́vāpṛthivī́ ā́ viveša
    aháṃ suve pitáram asya mūrdhán
    máma yónir apsú antáḥ samudré
    táto ví tiṣṭhe bhúvanā́nu víšvā
    utā́mū́ṃ dyā́ṃ varṣmáṇópa spṛšāmi
    ahám evá vā́ta iva prá vāmi
    ārábhamāṇā bhúvanāni víšvā
    paró divā́ pará enā́ pṛthivyā́
    etā́vatī mahinā́ sám babhūva
    Last edited by shaberon; 15th February 2024 at 04:43.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Book One: Mandala Six

    Sanskrit version on one page.

    Index version.


    Rg Veda Sages, complete, in order, with patronymics; reveals multiple authorships

    These are the earliest Sanskrit recordings.

    As to what part of history they are recording, my reasoning is as follows. From IVC we find cross-culturalization from Elam to Bactria by ca. 2,300 B. C. E. And then there was Sargon of Akkadia, generally held to be the first empire-conqueror, whose son Rimush was far worse, inventing genocide as we know it, ca. 2,270 B. C. E.; and shortly past him, within about a hundred years, Akkadia or Babylon is thought to have been withered by drought, at the onset of the Meghalayan Age. And so this is remarkably close to the background of the main Vedic enemies, the Panis, who do not seem to be thought of as Sargon-like conquerors, but, western chieftains whose own misfortunes drove them to the recourse of stealing Indian cattle.

    If the Veda records raids and battles around 2,100 B. C. E., this is also the same as the onset of the Age of Aries.

    There is nothing to me that suggests the ancients knew of an Astrological Great Year, but, there is a lot to say that from around 3,000 B. C. E., that Taurus was used to mark the Vernal Equinox, and Thuban was the Pole Star. But then these both go obsolete and quit working. This seems to have been problematic for mythologies and anything that resembled an "agricultural almanac" because suddenly your deities are not absolutely fixed, and time and the directions warp.

    If you were bringing in a new clock system, so Aries marks the equinox, then in the Indian view at least, this "first point of Aries" may be defined as the region *opposite* Spica, or Citra, the star of Tvastr.

    And then if you remain based in the lunar and sidereal system, you quit caring if the equinox moves, because you plan on adjusting your solar calendar by adding extra days, changing the length of months. That does not necessarily affect the Sunday-Saturday days of the week, which are the same everywhere.

    Somewhere around what looks like the Vedic era, you could physically re-invent the year by having New Year visibly marked by the Aswins, two stars of Aries, who are somewhat clandestinely marked by Tvastr.

    That matches the mythology that appears to run through the whole Rg Veda.

    The first book definitely includes specific people essential for anything to be passed down:

    Sage Bharadwaj, raised by the Maruts

    King Srnjaya and Hariyupia (VI.27 5-8)

    King Divodasa and Sambara (VI.18, 31, and 43), with Divodasa mentioned five other times

    Following Talageri's advice that "Purukutsa" is an interpolation, we can still find the presence of several concrete personages:

    Pratardana VI.26.8

    Kutsa VI.18.13, 20.5, 26.3, 31.3

    Yadu VI.20.12, 45.1 (past tense/historical)

    Nahusa VI.22.10, 26.7, 46.7 (past tense, "heroes of", "plural descendants of", "five tribes of")

    On the mystical side, this book lacks Prajapati; it has "brahma" as a generic word, and the deities Brahmanaspati and Aditi; Vaisvanara; Marut Gana; Vivasvata; Vishnu and Pusan, who has a block of hymns, 53-58.

    VI.69 repeats "indravisnu" followed by a hymn referring to Dharma.

    Ye, Indra-Visnu, when ye fought the battle, produced this infinite with three divisions.

    Indra Jyestha is in VI.46.5 and 51.15, plausibly meaning "Elder" or that he is the first-born of the Adityas, which is both his importance, and his defective personality particularly in terms of clash with Tvastr.

    Some rather occult subjects are drawn:

    Ahir Budhniya in VI.49.14, 50.14.

    Navagva in VI.6.3, 22.2 with saptá víprāso (Seven Sages).

    There happen to be seven sevens in it including:




    saptá rátnā

    In order to figure it out, we inevitably must contend with future fingers reaching back towards it. So there are a few tangents from the other Books or Mandalas.

    In terms of an Alpha or origin point, I think it has something, which comprehensively infers more than is in the rest of the Book.

    It has a very distinct primordial stamp in:

    VI.16 Dadhyan, Atharvan, Pushkar, Purandar

    The subject is really Agni, and so if we start here, the first line will tell us his function exactly:

    “You, Agni, have been appointed by the gods, the ministrant for men, the descendants of manu, at all sacrifices.”

    He is like the link of mind to matter. He takes mantras and offerings from the mortal world to the Devas, using it to move them forward to here. You are inviting deities to manifest at your event. Agni is the conduit for the entire affair.

    It mentions the ancient Patriarch:

    bharato vājibhiḥ

    whose mode of worship:


    Angiras (coals):

    yaviṣṭhya -- youngest (of the gods)

    Agni is the "youngest" because kindled.

    This exercise takes us several levels further:

    “The sage, Atharvan, extracted you from upon the lotus-leaf [Puskara], the head, the support of the universe.”

    “The ṛṣi, Dadhyañc, the son of Atharvan, kindled the slayer of Vṛtra, Purandar.

    Nothing here is about Asuras--it is about Raksasas.

    If Purandar is Indra, it can only be that Indra begot by this Agni. Indra kills Vrtra, the son of Tvastr, and hides in the Pushkara Lotus. In those same lines you have the founders of anything Veda and Immortality. These are cherished memories while the hymn as a whole is towards Divodasa and then, by extension, to Bharadvaja himself. Another part of the past:

    (The ṛṣi) Pāthya, the showerer (vṛṣā), kindled you the destroyer of the Dasyu

    Agni operates:

    upon whatsoever your mind is directed

    mano dakṣaṃ

    and has done so in every age of man:

    mānuṣā yugā

    And very similar to Purandar Indra:

    have destroyed the cities

    agne puro rurojitha ||

    As far as I know, that already is the spine of the whole Yoga system and Honey Doctrine.

    You are faced with Indra being a type of office, which in these early episodes is occupied by Purandar, whom, upon drinking Soma, enters the victorious and wealth-spreading condition Maghavan.

    He is here with those primal Rishis who convey Immortality or Deathlessness as Amrita or Nectar.

    The hymn implies prior knowledge, whereas the Vedic process, itself, appears to be in discovering how to build Saman on top of the Rik.

    VI.46.1 will be the beginning of Brhat Saman. According to Brihadaranyaka Upanishad:

    The preceptor of those who sing Saman Mantras
    is King Pururavas, the son of Ila.

    From the map we found that Kauthuma (Chandogya Upanishad branch of Sama Veda and Rktantra) is the neighbor of Paippalada (primary recension of Atharva Veda).

    VI.48 is inter-textual. It is by:


    but refers to Bharadvaja as the priest. It tells us that an important person loses his normal grandfather to Agni because:

    ...may he be our benefactor and the grandsire of our offspring.

    when kindled by Bharadvāja

    Agni is:

    The lord of the dwelling: gṛhapati, master or protector of the house

    "Old" is celebrated, but, we already have the importance of "new":

    “Approach, friends the milk-yielding cow with a new song, and let her loose unharmed.”

    Dhenu: this is the first of a series of ṛcas in which the Maruts are the deities, either with reference to the milk which is their appropriate offering at sacrifices, or to Pṛśni, the mythological mother of the Maruts, in the form of a cow

    except it is not a "song", as in a saman, bhajan, metre, or anything like that, what is new is:


    Speech, or, convertibly, Vak.


    “She who yields immortal food to the powerful, self-irradiating band of the Maruts, who (is anxious) for the gratification of the self-moving Maruts, who traverse the sky with (the passing waters), shedding delight.”

    the Maruts doing their yogic obligation:

    ...may that (company) make hidden wealth manifest

    which, for our purposes, is the Sapta Ratna just mentioned above. I would say this gives some 80% of the skeleton of Buddhist Tantra already in this Book. The Maruts are simply the fact that one's Life Winds are not in proper yogic harmony, and that they are very sensitive to any disturbances. So the true personal wealth, that is, inner or symbolic, is buried and covered by their dissension. Hence the Debts and Offerings.

    After the Maruts, Pusan:

    Uproot not, Pūṣan, the forest lord [Vanaspati] with its progeny of crows...

    “May your friendship be unbroken, like (the surface) of a skin without a flaw, containing curds.”

    Skin containing curds: said to be always carried in Pūṣan's chariot

    which gives us the same etymology as for Sage Dadhyan, "Curds Ward":


    Pusan is, so to speak, beyond the Maruts and related to Curds.

    The hymn ends with a verse to:

    pṛśnirvā bhūmī vā

    Once, only once, the heaven was made, once only once, the earth was formed-
    Once, only Prsni's milk was shed: no second, after this, is born.

    Bhrgus are unclear in the early Veda. There is the mysterious VI.50 Apam Napat:

    May this God Savitar, the Lord, the Offspring of Waters, pouring down his dew be gracious,
    And, with the Gods and Dames accordant, Tvastar; Dyaus with the Gods and Prthivi with oceans.

    May Aja-Ekapad and Ahibudhnya, and Earth and Ocean hear our invocation;
    All Gods who strengthen Law, invoked and lauded, and holy texts uttered by sages, help us.

    It begins discussing Three Worlds in VI.51.

    Here in the sense of Three Waters and authors such as Dvitya and Tritya Aptya, we found Water and Son of Water as peculiar stars near Tvastr or Citra.

    This is the principle that, as Agni may illuminate the deities into our world, at times we too may enter their world or Swarga. This triple potency runs through the Veda like a torch. That is the main view in which I, at least, am studying, as the use of mantras for evocation and yoga.

    VI.61 Sarasvati gives away Divodas, who cancels the debt. He is given to Vadhryasva, which is why this is considered an epithet of Srnjaya. In the very next hymn is a vadhrimatī , "the wife of an impotent husband", a theme repeated in other books.

    The actual "debt" may have a dual meaning, first, literally, and, in the sense of "five debts" (rna) that man is in, with respect to consuming resources and making a mess. These are owed to the Devas and other kingdoms of nature, which is why there is a process of Offerings.

    Srnjaya is probably the first valorous victor for the Aryas, and it is likely his father is mentioned, depending on how you read VI.27.7:

    yásya gā́vāv aruṣā́ sūyavasyū́ antár ū ṣú cárato rérihāṇā
    sá sṛ́ñjayāya turvášam párādād vṛcī́vato daivavātā́ya šíkṣan

    He, whose two red Steers, seeking goodly pasture, plying their tongues move on' twixt earth and heaven,
    Gave Turvasa to Srnjaya, and, to aid him, gave the Vrcivans up to Daivavata.


    “He whose bright prancing horses, delighted with choice fodder, proceed between (heaven and earth), gave up Turvaśa to Sṛñjaya, subjecting the Vṛcīvats to the descendant of Devavāta (Abhyāvartin).”

    Vamadeva is more precise in IV.15 for Sṛñjaya, the son of Devavāta. The parentheses there are Wilson's suggestion; it may be possible for both of them.

    Neither the translators nor Sayana really know anything about these original people, and are kind of swatting at air.

    There is Puranic information on original Bharadvaja, which can be considered more seriously, as it is one of the few cases where, we might say, Puranas of split traditions mostly agree:

    Dīrghatamas is the son whom Bṛhaspati illegitimately got of Mamatā, his brother’s wife. There was then another legitimate child in the womb of Mamatā. Knowing this the devas told her 'Bharadvāja' meaning 'bear the brunt of two' and so the son of Bṛhaspati got the name of Bharadvāja also. The real name of this son was Dīrghatamas or Vitatha. Dīrghatamas is not the Bharadvāja who was the father of Droṇa. The famous Bharadvāja was the son of Atri. Dīrghatamas or Vitatha was the adopted son of Bharata, son of Duṣyanta.

    There is a lot of confusion because some Puranas go on to invent a "King Marutta", when what is meant here is more like Marut Gana since Bharadvaja is:

    A son of Bṛhaspati and Maruttā; born when Dīrghatamas was already in the womb; brought by the Maruts to Bharata and became his son Vitatha.

    Vāyu-purāṇa 99. 140-156

    related to Atharva Gotra:

    the father of Āyurveda which he compiled in eight parts and imparted them to his pupils

    Bharata, a King of the Pūru line of kings, had no sons and as he was spending his days in sorrow Marutta gave Bharata this Bharadvāja as a son. Bharadvāja who was by birth a brahmin from then onwards became a Kṣatriya. (Matsya Purāṇa 49. 27-39 and Vāyu Purāṇa 99. 152-158).

    The Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad refers to this sect of preceptors as disciples of Bhāradvāja, Pārāśarya, Valāka, Kauśika, Aitareya, Āsurāyaṇa and Baijavāpāyana.

    Bhāradvāja (भारद्वाज).—A grammarian. According to the Ṛktantra, prātiśākhya of Sāmaveda, it was Brahmā, who first composed the science of grammar. This science was taught by Brahmā to others in the following order: Brahmā to Bṛhaspati, he to Indra, Indra to Bhāradvāja and he to his disciples.

    At one point he says to Bharata:

    Why have your descendants come to be known as Śūdras?

    His Āśrama still exists at the holy Prayag.

    E. bharat upholding and vāja a wing

    In those descriptions, we see that Brhaspati got a pregnant woman pregnant, let the child be raised by the Marut Gana, who transferred it to the legendary Emperor Bharata, and this becomes our first composer of hymns--or more likely, his original namesake. The writer interacted with Divodasa.

    Bharadwajas were said to be proliferous around Rajgriha in Buddha's time and were very accommodating to him.

    I have not yet noticed whether the Veda will confirm or deny the Puranic allegations. We will keep these for brevity.

    Talageri is saying Bharadvaja Barhaspatya was not the first:

    Quote About Bharadvaja and the ancestral Bharata, it is clear from the hymns that Bharadvaja (perhaps the eponymous one, or maybe again a descendant of the eponymous Bharadvaja) may have been the priest of the ancestral king Bharata, who is referred to as "Bharata of old" in VI.16.4. The eponymous Bharadvaja cannot have been the priest of Divodasa, since the association of the royal and priestly families go back many generations as per the references in the hymns. In Book VI, it is (as I have pointed out in my books) the tradition for almost all the composers to write in the name of the eponymous rishi, a practice which changed only in the New Books (from Book V).


    Quote Book 6, the Oldest Book in the Rigveda, shows itself to be so old as to be in many ways distinct and isolated from the whole rest of the Rigveda: the book is of course part of the Rigveda, but it goes back long before the developments in the rest of the Rigvedic period. The next two books, Books 3 and 7 both, in their earliest core period, belong to the period of the Bharata Pūru king Sudās, but Book 6 goes far back into the past, and spans a large period beyond the period of Sudās' father Pijavana, his ancestor Pratardana, his father or ancestor Divodāsa, his father Sṛñjaya (nicknamed Vadhryaśva or "impotent" until, by the grace of the river Sarasvati in answer to his prayers, he begot Divodāsa), his ancestor Devavāta, and perhaps many earlier generations, going back to the ancestral semi-mythical figure of Bharata (who is mentioned only once as a person, in VI.16.4). It may even be that the eponymous sage Bharadvāja was the priest of this ancestral Bharata...

    Add up all the different words from all the above categories which are missing in Book 6, and compare the religious picture it conjures up with the picture of the total Vedic religion as we know it, and it becomes clear that Book 6 represents a very pristine and ancient period which even repeated redactions failed to camouflage.

    He has done a lot to trace out the Rg Veda kings but makes a mistake I believe. He takes "Pratardana Daivodasi" of Book Nine as a re-naming of the original from Book Six. He then says this is identical to Pratardana Kasiraja of Book Ten. The mire is that he takes Kasi or Kashi literally, and so the ancient Pratardana must have been king of the city/state of Kashi. However its archaeology does not bear tremendous age, and, moreover, we believe it to be symbolic like Ayodhya. As a clue to the symbol, none of the other kings have the title "raja". So we think he may have been the king of its subjective meaning.

    Pratardana is in VI.28 only as a figurehead:

    Kṣatraśrī, the son of Pratardana

    prātardaniḥ kṣatraśrīr

    He is the last possible Bharata King in Book Six.

    Sudas and Paijavana is not in it.

    Talageri writes "Pijavana" as if *that* king were an actor, but the only term used is Paijavana, meaning his son.

    This is fairly easy because we ought to nullify his second attestation, that this is *not* a direct reference to Pratardana in VII.14, which starts in a snafu of the highest order:

    Pratṛts, Agastya comes to you

    Who knows why he put that. It is obviously:

    pratṛdo vasiṣṭhaḥ ||

    Sayana says:

    Pratṛts = Tṛtsus

    And that's it. Not evidently an individual name, or even the same spelling. Bharadwaj was dealing with Ksatra Sri, whose father was Pratardana. Nothing more from him. The verse more accurately rendered:

    He brings the bearer of the laud and Saman: first shall he speak bringing the stone for pressing.
    With grateful hearts in reverence approach him: to you, O Pratrdas, Vasistha cometh.

    Sudas is barely mentioned in Book Three:

    When Visvamitra was Sudas's escort, then Indra through the Kusikas grew friendly.

    Come forward, Kusikas, and be attentive; let loose Sudas's horse to win him riches.
    East, west, and north, let the King slay the foeman, then at earth's choicest place perform his worship.

    while Visvamitra appears interested in a Bharata king, Devasravas, who does not appear again:

    Both Bharatas, Devasravas, Devavata, have strongly rubbed to life effectual Agni.

    Praise Devavata's Agni, thou Devasravas, him who shall be the people's Lord.

    Qv. III.23:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): devaśravā devavātaśca bhāratī

    Sudas is significant in Book Seven, and there are no more until Somaka and Sahadeva of Book Four.

    So to clarify the other mistake, if we look at how "Paijavana" is used in the only place it is found, VII.18, he is in a few verses.

    Are these three names the same person?


    I move around the altar, earning Paijavana's reward

    paijavanásya dā́naṃ

    Two hundred cows from Devavan's descendant, two chariots from Sudas with mares to draw them.

    dvé náptur devávataḥ šaté gór dvā́ ráthā vadhū́mantā sudā́saḥ

    Two names of the same person?


    Gift of Paijavana, four horses
    Sudas's brown steeds

    paijavanásya dā́nāḥ


    Sudas's father Divodasa

    dívodāsaṃ ná pitáraṃ sudā́saḥ

    Further Paijavana's desire with favour. Guard faithfully his lasting firm dominion.

    aviṣṭánā paijavanásya kétaṃ dūṇā́šaṃ kṣatrám ajáraṃ duvoyú

    Vasistha is working with Paijavana who is Sudas.

    The Rg Vedic kings are not quite as stretched out as Talageri asserts. "Pijavana" if anything would be Divodasa, and there is no need to interpose Pratardana as another generation. It seems to be simply by ascent:

    Sudas --> Divodasa --> Srnjaya --> Devavata --> Bharata.

    Again we do not see a reason to assume several generations between Bharata and the others.

    If he was human.

    If Visvamitra, at the time of Sudas, had a friend who was related to Devavata, that would still be an old lineage even without making the list too spongy. That is what it sounds like because he has a triple name, i. e. "Devavata Bharati" sounds like "The House of", rather than the usual name which would sound like "son of Divodasa". One of those is here:

    Jaiminlya BrAhmaNa (§ 205) calls SudAs KSatra,
    while KaTha SaMhitA 21.10: 50.1 has Pratardana and
    MaitrAyaNI SaMhitA 37.7 Pratardana

    There is also Parucchepa Daivodasi.

    Sudas might be "Ksatra" if you thought he was the son of Pratardana. That was the sole reference we were given.

    "Ksatrasri" is used generically in I.125.

    "Ksatra" is in a roster of Sages from V.44:

    thoughts of Kṣatra, Manasa, Avada, Vajada, Sadhri and Avatsara


    thought of Ksatra, Manasa, of Yajata, and Sadhri, and Evavada

    kṣatrásya manasásya cíttibhir evāvadásya yajatásya sádhreḥ

    Swift is the excessive and girth-distending inebriation of Viśvavārā, Yajata and Māyin

    Mada = intoxication, is the devatā of the verse

    or, adding himself:

    With Avatsara's sweet songs will we strive to win the mightiest strength which even he who knows should gain.
    The Hawk is their full source, girth-stretching rapturous drink of Visvavara, of Mayin, and Yajata.

    There is a Yajata Atreya and Visvavara Atreyi, brought together here by Avatsara Kasyapa.

    Some Sages are not known for anything, like some of the Kings. This gives us nothing more towards the verse in Book Six. Pratardana is not much more than a name there, possibly another for Divodas.

    Book Six does have some suggestions about Maruts.


    They who are Sons of the rain-pouring Rudra, whom the long-lasting One had power to foster:
    The Mighty Ones whose germ great Mother Prsni is known to have received for man’s advantage.


    To whom the Goddess Rodasi clings closely, whom Pusan follows bringing ample bounty.

    The first book also has a very symbolic VI.47 Soma by Rishi Garga, who bemoans the fact he has entered a desert (as does hymn 34), while the territory taken from Sambar was full of flowing streams.

    The first line on Soma:

    svādúṣ kílāyám mádhumām̆ utā́yáṃ tīvráḥ kílāyáṃ rásavām̆ utā́yám

    Here, another term for Ambrosia or Amrita is:


    Indra and Soma are identical with "refuge" as in Buddhism:


    This is called "divine protection":


    This is a saga of Bharata Purus rising to eminence over all other Purus, and, we found that "Purusha" reflects this in a peculiarly Vedic manner. In this hymn is perhaps an equally important synonym of visvarupa, "many forms", Puru Rupa:

    “Indra, the prototype, has assumed various forms, and such is his form as that which (he adopts) for his manifestation; Indra, multiform by his illusion, proceeds (to his many worshippers), for the horses, yoked to his car are a thousand.”

    Indra presents himself as Agni, Viṣṇu, or Rudra, or any other deity who is the actual object of worship, and is really the deity to be adored; he is identifiable with each.

    which includes Hara or perhaps Hari:

    indro māyābhiḥ pururūpa īyate yuktā hy asya harayaḥ śatā daśa

    “Yoking his horses to his car, Tvaṣṭā shines in many places here in the three worlds; who (else), sojourning daily among his present worshippers, is their proector against adversaries?”

    In this ṛca, Tvaṣṭā is an appellative of Indra, the ancient artificer!

    The subject switches to the obscure:


    “Prastoka has given to your worshipper, Indra, ten purses of gold, and ten horses, and we have accepted this treasure from Divodāsa, the spoil won by Atithigva from Śambara.”

    Atithigva: prastoka, divodāsa and atithigva, are different names of the same person, a rājā, the son of Sṛñjaya.

    prastokasya sārñjayasya dānastutiḥ

    which is why Divodasa is considered the son of Srnjaya, who was equivalent to "lame horse" unable to have one.

    Even when we line up these kings, it still sounds a little weird that Bharata and Srnjaya were *both* impotent, receiving children by some trans-mundane means. And it is not actually Srnjaya who was present at the battle--he gets the Turvasus by what sounds like surrender or treaty. What mainly happens in VI.27 is that Indra defeats the Varasikhas by sound:

    svanāc -- Svana

    which was for the benefit of:

    Abhyāvartin, the son of Cāyamāna...descendant of Pṛthu (pārthavānām)

    in a region of Yavya (barley, or grain in general).

    Srnjaya would appear insignificant if it were not for VI.47; here, the important Hariyupia is someone else's act at about the same time. It gives us a reason to accept Prthu as a pre-Vedic legend, and, reasons to think of the Yupa or "Post", which is in both "the lump" mode of creation, and, the Sacrificial Post onto which man, such as Sunhashepa, may be condemned and seek liberation.

    Talageri says the Cayamanas were Anu kings defending against the Yadus, and the loss of this alliance later was by Kavi, who became Zoroastrianism; he thinks this is the "Kavasa" a few verses further along:

    (or kavaṣa ailūṣa) Name of a Ṛṣi (son of Ilūṣa by a slave girl, and author of several hymns in the tenth Maṇḍala of the Ṛg-veda; when the Ṛṣis were performing a sacrifice on the banks of the Sarasvatī he was expelled as an impostor and as unworthy to drink of the water, being the son of a slave; it was only when the gods had shown him special favour that he was readmitted to their society)

    But there is no identification of Cayamanas or Varasikhas. Kavasa Ailusa is probably not Kavi Cayamana. No Yadus are here. In other hymns, they are described as accepting Indra along with the Turvasas. Therefor the actors at Hariyupia are almost no one. The actual point of it being that Bharadwaj says:

    “The opulent supreme sovereign Abhyāvartin, the son of Cāyamāna, presents, Agni, to me two damsels riding in cars, and twenty cows; this donation of the descendant of Pṛthu cannot be destroyed.”

    At first the Yadus appear less important than the Turvasas, especially if thinking of "all three directions" from VI.18 where Indra:

    Laidest low Kutsa, Ayu, Atithigva, and boldly didst deliver Turvayana.

    Sayana says that Turvayana is Divodasa. Srnjaya somehow "gained" the Turvasas, which, perhaps, Divodas was a member of, and therefor considered an "adopted" son.

    Book Six is more concerned with Divodasa, and Garga comes along after his success, as in directly after it and probably still during his lifetime. Divodasa's main quest being the defeat of Sambar, we believe it may have led to the first Kirat King Yalambar, as retained in a real thing known as Kirat Yele Samvat:

    "According to historical documents on the genealogy of the Gopal Dynasty, altogether 32 Kirant kings ruled Nepal for 1964 years. Yalam (Yalambar) ruled Nepal as the first Kirant king circa 1779 BC. If you count the years after the reign of Yalambar, as many as 3,790 years have passed as of 2011 AD. So 2011 AD is the year 3790 in Kirant Yele Sambat calendar."

    Kirats had been around since the Stone Age, and, only recently, a few generations of Indian Ahir Guptas had founded a kingdom in the Kathmandu Valley. Sambar was most likely Kiratic, and perhaps only a few generations before the Samvat. The critical piece of evidence here is that they have been there since 30,000 B. C. E., in Yajur and Atharva Vedas:

    The Lichhavi dynasty dethroned the Kirat rulers in 158AD (evidence: statue of Jaya Barma found in Maligaun of Kathmandu).

    It has nothing to do with when the Licchavis may have established continuous power. After the dethronement, there were no more Kirats.

    Back to Garga's hymn 47, this is perhaps "money", but actually, ten "lumps of gold":

    daśo hiraṇyapiṇḍān

    which is also suggestive of that mode of Creation called "the lump", which involves the Central Pillar or Post separating earth from the firmament, which may have to do with "Hariyupia" in this book, since "yupa" is the pillar or post, and so far my guess is this is a pillar of sunshine, which is why Indra's Bow is a Rainbow. Actual, historical battles are being used as messengers for symbolism.

    It is the same in this hymn for the Divine Chariot:

    daśa rathān praṣṭimataḥ śataṃ gā atharvabhyaḥ | aśvathaḥ pāyave 'dāt ||

    “Aśvattha has given to Pāyu ten chariots with their horses, and a hundred cows to the priests.”

    To the priests: atharvabhyaḥ = ṛṣis of the atharvagotra; pāyu is the brother of Garga

    Aśvattha = Prastoka

    He's up to four names. Divodasa is Asvattha. In the lore, so is Bharata, or Pururavas.

    The next subject is the car:


    “Worship with oblations the chariot constructed of the substance of heaven and earth, the extracted essence of the forest lords; the velocity of the waters; the encompassed with the cow-hide; the thunderbolt (of Indra).”

    indrasya vajro marutām anīkam mitrasya garbho varuṇasya nābhiḥ | semāṃ no havyadātiṃ juṣāṇo deva ratha prati havyā gṛbhāya ||

    “Do you, divine chariot, who are the thunderbolt of Indra, the precursor of the Maruts, the embryo of Mitra, the navel of Varuṇa, propitiated by this our sacrifice, accept the oblation.”

    garbha of Mitra: the car is said to be contained by Mitra, the ruler of the day, as moving by day; nābhi of Varuṇa: it is a fixed point or centre for the deity ruling over the night, when the car of Indra or Sūrya stands still.

    The hymn ends with Lord of the Drum:

    sa dundubhe

    dudumbhi indraśca

    So far, Book Six is primarily by a Bharadvaja who has named himself after a legendary Bharadvaja, tied to other legends about Agni and unnamed Sages, and then most likely his ashram, or a generation of disciples. Sunahotra Bharadvaj is the ancestor of Grtasamada. Rjisvan is testified many times later:

    in X.99.11, AuSija is an epithet of RjiSvan, who
    belongs to the BharadvAja branch of the ANgiras family.

    which will actually make sense, "son of Usija".

    This Book does not seem to "go forward" very far at all, there is little implication that its composers are a sequence, they are probably mostly concurrent. The contents of it seem to demand a century or more of widespread backstory. I don't think it would have been recorded unless, for example, Dadhyan conjured up the same image for anyone who heard it.

    Because Nahusa is in the past, presumably this means Pururavas must be, although he is not mentioned until late books. If he is really in the past of the Yadus, then we would expect the lore to be less influential to the earlier parts of the recorded Veda. We also notice his name is never said to be related to the Puru tribe. As to whether this should qualify him as a human being, there is a scene from the dramatist Kalidasa:

    Here it is related how the
    nymph Urvasi, while acting in a drama before the god In
    her thonghts fixed on her lover had spoken in one of he
    name, Pururavas, instead of Purushottama, as her text required.
    Due to this she had been condemned by the heavenly stage-manager
    Bharata to wander on the earth, but Indra had mitigated the curse, gave
    her permission to dwell with her lover, king Pururavas until he
    should see a child which she should bear him.

    And, from his strong point which is demolishing Caste by showing how the Puranas deviate from the Vedas, Dr. Ambedkar:

    Quote According to the second theory Ila married Pururavas who had
    six sons the eldest of whom was Ayus. From Ayus to Kshatravridha,
    from him Sunahotra, from him Gritsamada. The four varnas were
    originated from Gritsamada. The Vayu Purana does not admit this.
    It says that the four varnas were born from Saunaka the grandson
    of Gritsamada.

    These explanations are like effusions of the imbeciles. They show how
    hard the Brahmins were put to for the defence of the Varna system.
    The question is why were the Brahmins not able to give a consistent
    and uniform unimpeachable, convincing and rational explanation of
    the Varna system of which they have been such strong protagonists ?

    He found at least four versions of Pururavas, mixed in various ways with ideas about Purusha Sukta.

    If one looks at how heavily Saunaka appears to be relied by Mahabharata, Srimad Bhagavatam, etc., there is suspicion perhaps not towards the Vedic Rishi, but to his followers.

    It seems plain already in the first Book that the Devas operate by a type of mental cash, that it is the consciousness of the invoker that causes the transaction, which has a mental result. It implies knowledge about lore that may or may not even be written in it, and, over time, the additional books serve to convey at least something from the Sages into the household. I can't imagine that would not, in fact, be the main purpose. Don't we want to provide avenues of support to anyone who wishes to transition into a state of divinity?

    If Pururavas, Ayu, Nahusa, and Yadu were already historical, Talageri says:

    The AiLas are further divided into five main branches: the Yadus, TurvaSas, Druhyus, Anus and PUrus.

    Atri is characterised as pAñcajanya (belonging to all the five tribes).

    Talageri and the Veda do not say they have this common father as in the Ramayana genealogies:

    Yayati (Contemporary to Demon King Vrishparva) had two wives and five sons. Yadu, Turvasu, Druhyu, Anu and King Puru were the five sons of Yayati. Devayani and Sharmishtha were the two wives of Yayati. Yayati, later, became the most powerful ruler of his era.

    Prithu (contemporary to 4th Chandravanshi King Yayati and demon king Vrushaparva)

    There is a Yayati, son of Nahusa in the New Books IX and X, which is probably where they should be cycling most of these names as Nahusa II and so on, probably more related to calling Samvarana a Manu (as in IX.101, who perhaps reflects Samvarana Prajapatya of V.33-34). The earliest concrete reference to Yayati is in an Angiras hymn I.31, whereas Yadu is historical to Book Six. I.31.4 is also where we find Pururavas related to the kindling of fire. The point of the hymn being that Agni is the first Angiras Rishi, it also refers to Nahusa, Ila, and Manu. Nothing about Yadu or Yadava.

    Yati is generally a monk, sage, ascetic, probably placed in combination "yasya yati".

    Yayati--crammed back to ages past--is called both the father of Puru *and* the Kuru kingdom in various texts.

    I.31 very nearly implies it is an alternym of Yadu.

    One person?

    Kuru prince, of the Chandra dynasty

    a king of the solar dynasty, the son of Nahusha

    Puranas place him above Yadu, generating the Five Tribes:

    Yadu being the son of Devayānī, daughter of Uśanas or Śukra, and Puru of Śarmiṣṭhā, daughter of Vṛṣa-parvan.

    Devayānī gave birth to Yadu and Turvasu, while Śarmiṣṭhā gave birth to Druhyu, Anu and Pūru.

    Yādu (यादु):—[from yād] m. water

    For the "solar" Yayati:

    Nabhaga is his son.

    Whereas for the Vedic Solar Mandhatr:

    The composer who refers to him in VIII.39.8 and VIII.40.12 is NAbhAka KANva. According to tradition, NAbhAka is a King from the IkSvAku (TRkSi) dynasty who joined the KaNva family of RSis. He is, therefore, a descendant of MandhAtA, whom, indeed, he refers to as his ancestor.

    I.31 definitely is symbolic with Agni as the first Rishi, and:

    Ila they made the teacher of the sons of men...

    In I.108, Kutsa Angirasa iterates the Five Tribes as "five kinds" of people.

    Instead of Yayati--who persists in the comments--we find Yadu has certain accompaniment mentioned as early as IV.19:

    Turvīti and Vayyā

    Similarly in II.13:

    ...the easy crossing of the flowing waters for Turvati and Vayya

    In I.112 by:

    kutsaḥ āṅgirasaḥ

    With those aids by which you, who are worshipped in many rites, protected Kutsa, the son of Arjuna, as well as Turviti, Dhabhiti, Dhvasant, and Puruśanti...

    In I.54:

    You have protected Narya, Turvaśa, Yadu and Turvīti, of the race of Vayya...


    Thou helpest Narya, Turvasa, and Yadu, and Vayya's son Turviti...

    In I.36:

    “We invoke from afar, along with Agni, Turvaśa, Yadu and Ugradeva; let Agni, the arrester of the robber, bring hither Navavāstu, Bṛhadratha and Turvīti.”

    And finally a loop in V.79, present tense:

    Ṛṣi (sage/seer): satyaśravā ātreyaḥ


    satyaśravas, the son of Vayya.

    the powerful son of Vayya, Satyaśravas.

    Satyasravas has three fathers in the Puranas (Vitihotra, Manduki, or Markendaya). In Rg Veda, he is the son of or in the line of Atreya (which would be appropriate for Book Five), or, the son of Vayya, who was historical to Book Four.

    From Sama Veda to comment Stanza Eight, Hastaamalaka Stotra:

    Ever resplendent Usha Devi! As even before,
    kindly turn us to the direction of ‘jnaana’. Dyuloka Vaasini, Satya Swarupi! You had in the past, blessed
    Suneet the son of Shuchidratha granted light from darkness; now as Satyashrava the son of Vayya too do
    kindly grant me the same blessing. (1740-42)

    In the Puranas, Paila made two Samhitas of Rg Veda, transmitting one to:

    28. Indrapramati, the excellent sage taught one (undivided) Saṃhitā. He taught the highly fortunate and famous Māṇḍukeya.

    29-30. That sage of great fame taught his eldest son Satyaśravas.

    There is a Vedic correspondence among the authors of IX.97, including:

    Indrapramati Vasistha, Manyu Vasistha, Shakti Vasistha, Parasara Shaktya, Kutsa Angiras

    Puranas give Kapinjali Ghrtaci as the wife of Vasistha, mother of Indrapramati. From Rg Veda, Talageri says:

    PurUravas AiLa and UrvaSI (X.95):

    I, VasiSTha, call UrvaSI to meet me. The name
    VasiSTha is translated by Griffith as her best love.

    (VII.33.11) where UrvaSI is referred to as the
    mother of VasiSTha.

    Indra MuSkavAn: X.38

    Indra MuSkavAn is identifiable with Indrapramati
    VAsiSTha (joint composer of IX.97).

    The word muSka (X.38.5), which gives the RSi
    his epithet MuSkavAn, is found only once outside
    this hymn, in X. 102.4, composed by a Bharata.

    The only hymns, other than X.38, in which Indra
    is named as composer, are hymns in which the
    God Indra is depicted as speaking in the first
    person. But X.38 does not depict Indra speaking
    in the first person, and it is clear that Indra here
    is the name of the composer, who is the patriarch
    of the Aindra group of RSis in MaNDala X.

    Indra is a VasiSTha gotra.

    X.38.5 refers to the RSi Kutsa. The Kutsas are
    very close associates of the VasiSThas: the only
    reference to Kutsas by non-Kutsas are in hymns
    by VasiSTha (VII.25.5; X.29.2); the only references
    to VasiSTha by a non-VasiSTha is in a hymn by
    a Kutsa (I.112.9); and the only hymn in which a
    Kutsa figures as a joint composer is IX.97, which
    is jointly attributed to eleven VasiSTha RSis
    (including Indrapramati) and a Kutsa.

    Manyu TApasa is identifiable with Manyu
    VAsiSTha (joint composer of IX.97).

    For this name:

    Muṣka (मुष्क) refers to the “lower genitals”, [masculine] testicle, [dual] the vulva.

    Two of the Brahmanas for X.38.5 say:

    Kutsa and Luśa summoned Indra at the same time to their respective sacrifices; Indra first went to Kutsa, who detained Indra, fastening him by the scrotum with a hundred leatherpieces.

    This is never discussed and is mirrored in Talageri's Historical Analysis text on one archived page, i. e. minus tables and graphics. Also mentioned in passing in Vedic Culture 1947. Talageri severs the "other Rishi Indra":

    Indra VaikuNTha (3 hymns): X.48-50

    Saptagu ANgiras, the composer of X.47, is clearly the composer
    of these three hymns, which constitute a continuation of the theme in
    hymn 47. Hymn 47 is addressed to Indra as Indra VaikuNTha, and
    these three hymns, in the manner of a dialogue-hymn, constitute
    Indras reply to Saptagu.

    Because this does not seem to be an actual Rishi, it would be considered that the two who have Indra as their first name are identical and the originator of the Aindra clan of Book Ten, which makes them a branch of Vasisthas.

    Although the Agastyas of Mandala One are namesakes, there must be a primal authenticity to their Apri Hymn I.188:

    This, incidentally, also explains why the AprI-sUkta of the
    Agastyas, whose other hymns were certainly composed in the
    Middle and Late periods of the Rigveda, clearly shows that it was
    composed in the Early period of the Rigveda.

    Although the Visvamitra and Vasistha Apris appear in their respective Mandalas, that of the Angirases does not appear until I.142 by:

    dīrghatamā aucathyaḥ

    who sounds related to Ucathya Angiras of Book Nine. That would perhaps be why an inappropriate-sounding person is composing the Angiras Family Hymn.

    Talageri gives the equivalent:

    MAmateya (DIrghatamas) (IV4.13)

    the father of KakSIvAn

    I am not sure that is parallel--Book Four refers in past tense to the Blind son of Mamata which we already encountered:

    Mamatā (ममता):—She was the wife of Utathya (brother of Bṛhaspati). Bṛhaspati made her pregnant by force and the demigods (sura) named the child Bharadvāja.

    "Utathya" is about the same as "Ucathya", and so it appears we are looking at the name, Dirghatamas, son of the brother of Brihaspati. The brother is the son of Angiras, therefor Brhaspati is the son of Angiras.

    That would almost make sense, the Family Hymn is composed by Dirghatamas Aucathya, who is the brother of the first Rg Veda author, Bharadvaja Barhaspatya, if they are different people.

    This is sensed by Brahmanda Purana, who names Brhaspati's brother as Usija, says Brhaspati has intercourse with the pregnant Mamata but does not explain the second child, does say that Dirghatamas emerges, who becomes sexually interested in the daughter of his brother:

    Śaradvān Autathya

    who must have been the second, or first, or the embryo or something.

    Next, Dirghatamas has children with Bali's wife's maid:

    The sage of great Self-control with a pious soul begot two sons viz. Kakṣīvān and Cakṣus of her in the womb of a Śūdra lady.

    In this context the following verse regarding the family is cited by the people who know future events.

    —“This family of Ikṣvākus shall continue up to Sumitra. Having reached Sumitra in the Kali Yuga it will become extinct.”

    107-110. Thus the Kṣatriya clan originating from Manu and Aila (Pururavas) has been recounted.

    The actual phrase in the Vedic hymn is:

    pāyavo māmateyaṃ

    which quite possibly means Payu:

    Name of a man, [Ṛg-veda vi, 47, 24] (with bhāradvāja, author of [vi, 75; x, 87])

    VI.75 as authored by him; and the other reference to Hymn 47 we just mentioned, Asvattha--Divodasa donates to Payu (Garga's brother) and the Atharva Gotra.

    Payu is presumably an honorific re-naming in X.87, which is completely destructive, focusing one particular enemy, Yatudhanas:

    “Regard, beholder of men, the rākṣasas among the people; cut off his three heads; cut off his flanks with your might; cut off the triple foot of the Yātudhāna.”

    ...like Atharvan with celestial radiance burn down the ignorant (rākṣasas), who assails truth with falsehood.

    one thing he protects is:


    foolish people believe in a:


    paya -- milk

    is virtually equivalent to

    pīyūṣam -- nectar

    and the additional enemy:

    Kimīdins: a kind of rākṣasas; Nirukta 6.11: those who wander about saying kimidānīm, what now? or kim idam, what is this?

    For the name Mana:

    Vaśiṣṭha and Agastya were born of Urvaśī’s mana, and the energy effused by Mitrāvaruṇa—

    tatte janmotaikaṃ vaśiṣṭhāgastyo yatvā biśa ājabhāra.

    utāsi maitrāvaruṇo vaśiṣṭhorvarśyā manaso’dhijātaḥ;

    drapsaṃ skannaṃ brahmaṇā daivyena viśve puṣkare tvādadante. (7.33.10-13)

    Agastya was born inside a kumbha, that is, he could be measured by a kumbha, so, he was also known by the name Māna (Mana), meaning measure. He was called Māna also because his structure resembled the yoke of a temperate plough. However, these are arguments of later scholars; it is difficult to accurately determine why Agastya came to be known as Māna. Still, Ṛgveda bears clear evidence of the fact that Agastya and his family were known by the title ‘Māna’.

    Ghrtaci and Vak in Agastya's I.167.

    Manyu Suktam (X.83-84) says Manyu is primarily "Vajra", is other deities, is allied to Tapas. The Sage Manyu confesses to anger and lack of practice. Includes a Buddhist phrase:

    sahajā vajra

    And, realistically, it is an intensity that could veer either way:

    Manyu (मन्यु).—[masculine] mood i.e. temper of mind, [especially] high spirit, ardour, zeal; passion, wrath, anger

    While almost the same as Agastya's title:

    Māna (मान):—Weights and measures / metrology

    A measure of capacity or of weight, a maund.

    Māna (मान) refers to:—The sentiment that prevents the lover and beloved from meeting freely and which gives rise to transient emotions like anger, despondency, doubt, restlessness, pride and jealousy.

    From there, of course, manas, anything mental, consciousness, heart, conscience, etc.

    VII.33.10 has "Agastya" and three verses later "Mana". Vasistha calls himself "you" and "he" in this hymn. It starts off by:


    who speaks in past tense about "the Vasisthas" aiding Sudas and the Trtsus who are the Bharatas.


    starts v. 10 which revolves around the legend:

    Agastya was born of the contents in the vessel; the overflowing fluid being collected together, Vasiṣṭha remained in the lake, tato apsu gṛhyamāṇāsu vasiṣṭhāḥ puṣkare sthitaḥ; Puṣkara is also the name of a lake in Ajmer; Padma Purāṇa cites it as the hermitage of Agastya (Sṛṣṭi khaṇḍa).

    ...thence arose the great ascetic Agastya of the measure of a span, as measured by a measure (māna); he is therefore, called upon earth Mānya.

    It ends with the mistake about Pratardana, who is a brother of Sudas or is Sudas.

    Vasistha himself says that Agastya is his brother, even his cause, in the phantasmagorical manner of Urvasi causing Mitra and Varuna to ejaculate by her appearance. The Rg Veda goes on to contain nothing that is by Agastya, unless by implication he must have originated the Apri Hymn. I.179 is by his wife:

    Lopamudra Vaidarbhi

    who praises Dampati, who in earlier days might be thought of as "lord of the house", an individual male such as Agni or Indra, but this definitely changes to have the connotation of a married couple. Consequently, in Kannada or language of the Vidarbha region:

    the third sign of the zodiac, entered by the sun about 21st day of May; the Gemini.

    which in India is Mithuna, the Couple.

    She, personally, may not have literally penned this. We notice that Vasistha ties in "legendary Agastya" as if it were a medical fact, he does not become a Vedic Rishi in any legitimate sense, however his wife is clearly remembered for causing husbands to go to their wives.

    In one sense, Urvasi is a necessary pre-Vedic legend, and then, she is said to be necessary to the Veda by one of its most important Sages in terms of himself.

    What we see is that there is something majestic about Puskara in Book Six between Atharvan and the deities, and it recurs in Seven due to this thing that is actually said by Vasistha about him and Agastya.

    Among its symbolisms we would say are state of embryo in the womb, and spiritual metamorphosis, particularly via the Indra Jala.

    As a Buddhist, I drifted in to this by examining 1400s artwork of Ngor Monastery and the real Sita Tara, and it "sounds like" what is in the Puranas, but is actually vital to the entire foundation of the Rg Veda. It equates to the reigns of Divodasa and Sudas, who "established India" to an extent.

    So the Ailas are really the Five Tribes, including the Bharata Purus, other Purus, and four others such as the Lunar Dynasty who may have all revered Indra, but they are in shifting relationships to the Bharatas.

    Among them, Yadus become more closely related to Purus for just two reasons:

    Quote The first incident is clearly a very old one, in which Indra is credited with bringing the Yadus and TurvaSas safely over flooded rivers.

    The second incident, in which the Yadus came to the aid of the KaNvas in fighting their enemies, in response to an appeal contained in I.36.18 (in which they are called 'from afar' to come to the aid of KaNva)...

    The KaNvas are even associated with the Yadus and TurvaSas in the context of a battle, in which the Yadus and TurvaSas came to their aid in response to an appeal by the KaNvas.

    VItahavya is a Yadu, and he is referred to in VI.15.2, 3 and VII.19.2 (and also in the Atharvaveda VI.137.1). However, nothing more is known about him in the Rigveda; and it may be noted that he is associated in VI.15 with BharadvAja, the priest of the Bharata king DivodAsa, and again remembered in passing (though not in Griffith's translation) in the context of the Bharata king SudAs' battle with the ten kings.

    This is contrasted with Kavi CAyamAna, who turned the Anu tribe into enemies of the Aryas/King Sudas in VII.18.9.

    To strip and re-use an epithet of Divodasa, there is:

    ...the third Atithigva who is referred to in four hymns: I.53.10; II.14.7; VI.18.13; VIII.53.2.

    This Atithigva is clearly not the hero of the references. All the four references relate to the defeat of Kutsa, Ayu and Atithigva at the hands of (according to I.53.10 and VI.18.13) TUrvayANa.

    Quote VI.46.7-8

    Indra give us the strength and power of the tribes of NahuSas: the five tribes (Yadus, TurvaSas, Druhyus, Anus, PUrus). Give us the strength and power of all the tribes: the TRkSis (in the east), the Druhyus (in the west) and the PUrus (in the centre), that we may be invincible in battle.

    Here, clearly the TRkSis in the east, the Druhyus in the west, and the PUrus in the centre, when named together, signify all the tribes.

    The same symbolism is probably expressed in the naming together of Kutsa, Ayu and Atithigva. The three names probably represent the common epithets of the Kings of the TRkSis, the Druhyus and the PUrus (i.e. Bharatas); and when taken in combination, they mean all the tribes.

    Therefore, what the four references mean is: Indra is the Lord of all peoples and lands; or, in two of them: Indra made TUrvayANa (DivodAsa) the sovereign of all the tribes.

    VI.46 is pretty close to giving Nahusa the "father" role usually held by Puranic Yayati:

    ...in tribes of Nahusas, and all the splendid fame that the Five Tribes enjoy...

    VI.18 shows Turvayana as I suppose the fifth name of Divodasa, but thinking it is "for/with" those other three kings. VI.18 in the other translation follows the grammar that they were felled.

    If this spelling "Ayum" represents a father or tribe of the Ailas, it is also in VI.11:

    Whom as the Living One rich in oblations the Five Tribes, bringing gifts, adorn with homage.

    "Kutsa" appearing in the Rg Veda well over two hundred times:

    In the later literature he is seldom mentioned...

    Near the end of the Book is a mixed entendre in VI.68 where we might conceive of Honey Doctrine present as Madhu Matta. The translators lose this by thinking it is madhu + uttama meaning "sweetest":

    indrāvaruṇā madhumattamasya vṛṣṇaḥ somasya vṛṣaṇā vṛṣethām | idaṃ vām andhaḥ pariṣiktam asme āsadyāsmin barhiṣi mādayethām ||

    “Drink, Indra and Varuṇa, showerers (of benefits), of the most sweet Soma, the shedder (of blessings); this your Soma, is poured forth by us; sitting on the sacred grass, be exhilarated (by the draught).”

    However, the expression "matta" is exactly that meaning in the last line:


    “delight; enjoy; intoxicate.”

    So even though it may be "sweetest", the intended effect is still "intoxicated".

    Now, for a look at Vedic vocabulary enhancement. It is not unusual to find madhu "sweet" used routinely as in VI.41:

    drinkest streams of sweetness

    píbasi mádhva ūrmím

    which sounds off, because the last word would be expected in phrases more like in VI.10:

    night's thick darkness

    táma ū́rmyāyās

    So, we would expect "night or darkness" as it is used here. But that is apparently only one option.

    Bursting Vrtra in VI.17:

    the rushing wave of waters

    ūrmím apā́m


    like waves exulting

    ūrmayaḥ | madantaḥ


    like a torrent down a declivity

    ūrmír giro

    Then we find this ancient Sage Clan again in the secondary composer of X.127:

    rātrirvā bhāradvājī

    which is often called "Ratri Suktam" although the indicated subject is:


    and we find an invocation to goddess Ratri or Night addressed as:

    Keep off the she-wolf and the wolf, O Urmya, keep the thief away...

    I am not sure there is a Kali or Kalaratri in the Rg Veda, however, Rishika Ratri gives the invocation Urmi:

    Ūrmi (ऊर्मि) refers to “waves” (i.e., māyā—the variety and changes of phenomena)

    Ūrmi (ऊर्मि) refers to “waves (of the universe)”, according to verse of the Ciñcinīmatasārasamuccaya.—Accordingly, “The Void that rests in the (one) empowered reality emerges from the waves of the universe (viśva-ūrmi). The supreme goddess is born there. She is a passionate young woman and is passion itself. The Virgin Goddess (Kumārī) resides in the sacred seat of Kaula and rains down the great Divine Current”.

    Ūrmi (ऊर्मि) refers to the “wave” (of the ocean of consciousness), according to Abhinavagupta’s Tantrāloka verse 3.247-249 and 250cd-251ab.—Accordingly, “(This vibration is that) subtle movement which is the pulsing radiance (of self-luminous consciousness that shines as all things). Independent of all else, it is the wave (ūrmi) of the ocean of consciousness, and consciousness is (never) without it. Indeed, it is the nature of the sea to be (at times tranquil) without waves and (at others) full of waves. [...]”.

    Ūrmi (ऊर्मि) refers to “waves” (of Amṛta)

    Those representations sound consistent with original Vedic hymns. It does not quite sound like a personification of Night Goddess. This would be an apparently underrated avatar from Ramayana:

    Sita's sister Urmila, who is goddess Varuni and Sleep or Deep Sleep.

    Ūrmila (ऊर्मिल) [Also spelled urmil]:—(a) wavy; undulating/undulatory.

    Most Puranas ignore her, except Padma, Devi Bhagavata, and Skanda Purana.

    In this incarnation, she marries Lakshman. On a permanent basis, this couple is Sesha and Varuni.

    Ahirbudhnya is perhaps Vedic Sesha. Budhna can mean "lowest part or sky". The Vedic context usually seems to be "sky", although at one point Sayana adds the remark "the deep dragon". Sesha is the earth's core.

    Varunani as Varuna's wife is in VII.34 with Rodasi and Tvastr, but I am not sure we have looked into any modes of descent of Ganga or the River Ganges from the Celestial Plane. The idea being what we call Varuni is the daughter of Varunani.

    What used to be a king is apparently now a "demon" in an acclamatory telling of the Yadavas in Harivamsa:

    Quote The powerful Lord Vishnu, having brought Cupid (the limbless god, Ananga) under his subjection as one of his limbs, has created him as his son, extracting the very essence of the world (24). He was stolen away, in his childhood, by the sinful demon Shamvara: having slain him and kept his character unscathed he learnt all his illusory powers (25). All the accomplishments, that are worthy of being sought for in the three worlds, and all those that you can imagine, exist in Pradyumna. In his effulgence he is like fire, in patience he is like earth, in lustre he is like a lake.

    I had heard before how Pradyumna was born and how the powerful Shamvara was killed by him.

    I had gone to the charming city of Dwārakā protected by the Bhaimas. O you of sweet smiles and beautiful eyes, I saw Pradyumna there secretly and told him about your love for him, O you having lotus eyes.

    O king, Vajranābha's illustrious brother Sunābha had two beautiful and accomplished daughters—one of them was named Chandravati, and the other Gunavati. They daily used to go to Prabhāvati's house (33–34). One day seeing Prabhāvati engaged in love affairs in her house they asked her about it on account of their confidence in her love for them (35). She said:—"I possess a learning which can soon bring a desired-for husband and gives prosperity. It has such a wonderful power, that whoever, may he be a Dānava or god, is thought of he at once comes losing all control over himself. By the power of this learning I sport with the son of a god. See, by my power, Pradyumna has become my most favourite."

    ...those leading Yadus lived there happily with Asura girls.

    The goddess sleep, informed of the true character of the rainy season and Hari, having saluted the most beautiful Sree, has sought refuge with Upendra, the lord of the world, lying down for rest in the celestial region.

    The Brāhmanas celebrate the glories of the great Soma in sacrifice with Sāman verses (30). When the sacrificial fire was being brought by Pururavā from the region of the Gandharvas it was spoiled on the way. While searching that place a fig-tree was seen. Collecting fuels from that tree the three fires were engendered. So it is that the moon, the lord of trees and herbs, revived the spoiled fire from the fig-tree. Chandra (the moon) is the father of Budha, the author of most excellent deeds whose son was the king Pururavā (31). O beautiful lady, formerly when his ambrosial body was drunk by the dreadful Munis the high souled Soma desired for Urvasi, the foremost of Apsaras (32). In his family the intelligent Ayu attained to the celestial region, through the tips of the Kusa grass and secured the dignity of a demi-god and the heroic Nahusa acquired the dignity of the king of gods (33). The moon, in whose family, the Divine Lord Hari, the creator of the world is born, for a work of the gods, as a Bhaima chief, remains always encircled by the daughters of Daksha (34). In his family was born the high-souled Vasu, as if the flag of his race, who, by his deeds, attained to the dignity of a Lord Paramount; the king Yadu, the foremost of the lunar race, in whose family, the Bhojas, resembling the king of gods, were born and who became the Lord Paramount, was also born in the family of the moon (35–56). O you having lotus eyes, in Yadu's family, born in the lunar race no king has been born who is wily, atheistic, unrespectful, ugly and coward (37).

    In Rg Veda, it appears the Yadavas do not have much recognition until Kanva involves them.

    Most literature requires it for the glorification of Krishna. At the same time, it retro-fits Yayati. This does not really match the scripture. Fossil records show us a Gangetic Rice culture which slowly expanded westward. And again where the Puranas are very elaborated, it turns out the Veda has a very simple "descent of Ganges":

    By contrast, the Indus and its western tributaries, as we saw, are
    named in only six MaNDalas, which do not include the three oldest
    MaNDalas of the Rigveda.

    But even more significant than these bare statistics is the
    particular nature of the four references to the GaNgA, the
    easternmost river of them all:

    a. The nadlstuti begins its enumeration of the rivers with the
    GaNgA and moves westwards.

    GaNgA: the Ganges is
    mentioned, indirectly, in only one other verse of the Rgveda, and
    even there, the word is said by some to be the name of a woman.
    See Vl.45.31.

    b. The reference in Vl.45.31 is definitely significant: the composer
    compares the height of a patrons generosity to the height of the wide
    bushes on the banks of the GaNgA.

    This makes it clear that even in the oldest MaNDala in the
    Rigveda, the GaNgA is a familiar geographical landmark, whose
    features conjure up images which are very much a part of traditional
    idiomatic expression.

    c. The reference in 111.58.6. is infinitely more significant.

    The correct translation of 111.58.6, addressed to the ASvins, is:
    Your ancient home, your auspicious friendship, O Heroes, your
    wealth is on (the banks of the JahnAvl.

    What is noteworthy is that the phrase PurANamokah ancient
    home is used in the second oldest MaNDala in the Rigveda, in
    reference to the banks of the GaNgA.

    d. The reference in 1.116.19 associates the JahnAvl with
    BharadvAja, DivodAsa and the Gangetic dolphin (all of whom are
    referred to in the earlier verse I.116.18). It is clear, therefore, that the
    river is specially associated with the oldest period of the Rigveda, the
    period of MaNDala VI (which is also the only place, outside the
    nadlstuti, where the GaNgA is referred to by that name).

    The first mention of Ganges comes in comparison to the inscrutable Brbu, perhaps a Pani himself, who gives gifts to bharadwaj and his son Sayu, author of this and other hymns. So it makes sense that Bharadwaj is later attributed by memory around the Ganges.

    That is almost secretive and symbolic, because more visibly:

    The references to Haryana are fairly distributed throughout the
    Rigveda, right from the oldest MaNDala VI: VI.1.2 refers to Agni
    being established at ILaspada. Even more significantly. III.23.4 tells
    us that DevavAta (an ancestor of DivodAsa of the oldest MaNDala
    VI) established Agni at that spot. (Incidentally this appears to reflect
    an ancient custom of maintaining a perpetual fire, a custom still
    preserved by the Zoroastrians.)

    BhAratl is the deity of
    the still extant BhAratl-tIrtha of Kopar or Koer in the middle of
    KurukSetra, 22 miles east of Kaithal and 12 miles south-southwest of

    Haryana therefore clearly occupies a central position in the
    Rigveda in more ways than one.

    The only individuals specifically referred to as "Arya" are Divodasa and Sudas.

    Of course, we are unable to get any good maps that illustrate these events. Here is "Out of India" with the Five Tribes of Nahusa. The key here is Puranic, as the Veda doesn't mention this. Druhyus originally inhabited the Punjab, caused problems for their neighbors, and were driven out in the pre-Vedic period by Mandhata:

    After their continued defeats in the Rg Veda, Talageri supposes they became the Indo-European migrations. Right now we don't actually care if the Phrygians were Bhrgus. What we would like to see is that the Druhyus are now placed in the heartland of Lapis Lazuli, which had long been transported through Balochistan and probably the Yadu territory. And by the time these Vedic events are starting, there would be a coastal route extending all the way to Kerala. In the midst of all that must have been IVC.

    Divodasa of Book Six appears to be an ordinary human who left a legacy, while as soon as we turn to anything before him, everything is questionable as to how literal it could be. But with him, we don't get a "my son is born", a transition of power, or a funeral, or anything, just his memory in an honorable position for the rest of the Veda. Otherwise it is a cold, clean snap where you just go to another book that is only about Sudas, who takes a karmic boomerang from displaced kings and shifting alliances and probably *does* make something that is "a map", a larger, stable Indian political unit.

    Before him was clearly the "Five Tribes of Nahusa".

    After him, starting in the next book, we will find the conflation as passed through Samvarana Prajapatya in Book Five:

    “May those ten bright homes, the gift to me of the pious gold-possessing Trasadasyu, the son of Purukutsa, of the race of Girikṣita...

    obviously significant to the "Solar Kings"--as well as two other donors--the chain of descent is readily apparent in the following Vedic Rishis:

    Gathina Kaushika --> Viswamitra Gathina --> Prajapati Viswamitra --> Samvarana Prajapatya --> Manu Samvarana --> Nahusa Manava --> Yayati Nahusa --> no one named after him.

    Three people use the name "Manu" in the New Books, which makes sense if Manali had just been settled/established, and it is outside the boundaries of Book Six.

    This crushes the Puranas almost categorically, as what they seem to be doing is enhancing the actual late Vedic personages and moving them back as pre-Vedic legendry.

    Is that an innocent mistake because someone used the name Nahusa?

    And what happened to the "Solar Kings" in this rare use of the triple format:

    Quote Trasadasyu Paurukutsya Gairiksita

    ...the first is the personal name and that the second part of the unit, Paurukutsya, is a derivative from Purukutsa, the father’s name. The last member of the name is a derivative showing that the person belonged to the Giriksita gotra, and was thus what is now spoken of as the family name or sur- name.

    Thus the famous King Harischandra is spoken of as Hariscandra Vaidhasa Aiksvaka, that is Hariscandra, the son of Vedhas, belonging to the Iksvaku family.

    This system, however, was either confined to certain regions or was restricted to formal occasions.

    There is only one way to figure this out. We must go to I.154 from Dirghatama Aucathya:

    prá víṣṇave šūṣám etu mánma girikṣíta urugāyā́ya vṛ́ṣṇe
    yá idáṃ dīrghám práyataṃ sadhástham éko vimamé tribhír ít padébhiḥ

    Let the hymn lift itself as strength to Visnu, the Bull far-striding, dwelling on the mountains,
    Him who alone with triple step hath measured this common dwelling-place, long, far extended.

    “May acceptable vigour attend Viṣṇu, who abides in prayer, the hymned of many, the showerer (of benefits), who alone made, by three steps, this spacious and durable aggregate (of the three worlds).”

    Sayana says:

    Who abides in prayer: girikṣit, who dwells in speech, or who abides in high places

    That's immediately recognizable to me, Man on the Mountain remains symbolic and is the source of some confusion in the Buddhist transmission to Tibet.

    I did not know Sayana said it about Vishnu.

    It is the only detectable source for "gotra of Giriksita".

    Theoretically, it would have to be a Kshatriya not a Brahmin. On the surface it sounds contradictory, since the Ganges is on one of the largest flattest areas, it is so large and flat. So a literal "mountain dweller" does not quite register as any king of the place. As a likely reference to Vishnu, it might make more sense as a lineage name.

    We just quoted the preceptor of "Manu" most likely making an oblique reference to this other line from the holder of the Angiras Apri Hymn, who is or is named for the "brother" of Bharadvaja.

    This, apparently, is what the Veda has in lieu of Ikshvaku or "Solar Dynasty". After Trasadasyu, it may be plausible to say that "battle" was no longer such a focus, and Indra might decline in interest. During peaceful times, individuals might be more predispossessed to something like Vishnu and the Adityas. After all, those two deities are supposed to be friends and allies.

    As to these attributes of Shiva showing up here, all I know is the Veda just gave them to Trivikrama Vishnu.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Book Two: Mandala Three



    This is a tight, small Book centered on Visvamitra and King Sudas.

    Opposite to the first Book, which has perhaps a couple of generations and a backstory, the career of Sudas is divided over two Books. Superficially one should not overestimate it is a Sage and his band of disciples. They are not many and it is short. However it does depend on this additional figure:


    who is not mysterious at all, but, rather, over-elaborated in all sources who never agree. A general Puranic genealogy would place him in about the right time period, while sticking in names that are perhaps other Vedic Rishis:


    He and the name of his descent are ubiquitous:

    Kauśikā (कौशिका).—(GOMATĪ). A river. The hermitage of Viśvāmitra stood on the bank of this river. The modern name of river Kauśikā is Kosī. The river Kosī flows through Bihar.

    Kauśika (कौशिक) (lit. “one which resides in Kuśa [grass] or in Kośa [holes]”) is a synonym (another name) for the Owl (Ulūka)

    Name of a teacher (author of the Kauśikasūtra, brother of Paippalādi)

    Who--with his wife Ghrtaci--are followed by:

    Gāthin (गाथिन्) (or Gādhi)

    who in most accounts is the father of Visvamitra.

    For patrons, Visvamitra also deals with:

    a. DevaSravas is a contemporary clansman

    (brother/cousin/ uncle) of SudAs.

    b. DevaSravas is another name for SudAs himself.

    Besides his own clan, he meticulously attaches material from a namesake Angiras and Bhrgu--Ghora Angiras and Jamadagni Bhargava.

    In this Book we have:

    the Gayatrl mantra
    (111.62.10) is regarded as the holiest mantra in the Rigveda

    which is certainly not "the" Gayatri, which is simply a meter, but probably one of the simplest, and easiest for householders. It's one verse to Savitr. I do not know why it has been exalted. It's not the beginning of anything, it's not a grand culmination, it is a small piece of a larger hymn, which has something else that is probably more significant.

    If you can peel something out arbitrarily, and, this constitutes a "practice" or spiritual belief or something, what about the other ten thousand verses?

    The whole thing is more or less about the Sun. It is a bit more intricate than merely giving it a personal name. But, yes, that is probably one of the first Sanskrit things that anyone with the least curiosity about India will encounter, and, it legitimately is from the Rg Veda, and one of the oldest portions at that.

    There was, at least temporarily, some type of unification:

    When Visvamitra was Sudas's escort, then Indra through the Kusikas grew friendly.

    Does that mean they were not previously on good terms with Indra?

    Here is a dialogue quote from III.33.5 by:

    gopavana ātreyaḥ saptavadhrirvā

    “Viśvāmitra speaks: Rivers, charged with water, rest a moment from your course at my request, who go to gather the Soma; I, the son of Kuśika, desirous of protection, address with earnest prayer especially the river before me.”

    This is still the case, Visvamitra is known as Kausika. This part is not remotely in question, but the "who" of Kusika is again quite bare in the Veda. Again the case may be for "Grandson" because the authors flow like Gathina Kausika --> Visvamitra Gathina. In the sense this was probably a line of royalty, then, yes, it may be justifiable to say "Visvamitra Gathina Kausika", and then someone scratched out the middle name they do not understand because they do not know what the Veda says. The Veda does not specifically say he is a Kshaytria or use three names.

    First of all, that Rishi of III.33 has somehow got stuck to the header information and is repeated all across the hymns, so, it is probably an error. The Composers list does not mention it at all. That one is not perfect, either, but is useful because it is condensed. If we follow the etiquette, then, Book Ten is not "the person", but has Kusika Saubhara with Ratri Bharadvaji.

    In other words, we assume Book Ten to be honorific re-namings of ancient people or legends, so that the Rg Veda is verifying there was an important Kusika, pointing it out. Many of these "Sages" may be artificial, i. e. this is not a hymn he personally passed down, but was done in mental communion with him by a far later person. The whole idea is that a stable, perpetual sound has been "seen", that is the credence we are giving to the Sages as an authority. A mantra is what it says it is, and it affects Devata, which are forms of light.

    Kusika's surname Saubhara or son of Su-Bhara may refer to Suhotra or Sunahotra Bharadvaj. Talageri says Grtasamada descends from Sunahotra (GRtsamada Saunahotra). The Purana suggests Kusika descends from Suhotra. There is no other indication about who "Subhara" may be, so, I think the contraction may work, it means Suhotra Bharadvaja. His name has been re-used so many times, it is almost impossible to find the ones that may have any relation to the Veda:

    a son of Vitatha

    Suhotra (सुहोत्र):—Son of Kṣatravṛddha (son of Āyu). He had three sons named Kāśya, Kuśa and Gṛtsamada

    Suhotra married Suvarṇā, a princess of the Ikṣvāku dynasty. Three sons, Ajamīḍha, Sumīḍha and Purumīḍha were born to them.

    If the first were possible, you would have Kusa Sauhotra which may be Kusika Saubhara, and in the second there is an actual match.

    "Sauhotra" is the *only* similar construction in all the Vedic Rishis' names, being in Vamadeva's book. Their first names, Purumilha and Ajamilha, are exactly suggestive of the Bharatas' belief that neither family nor tribe directly defines an "enemy" since they may be on both sides:

    The Bharatas, in short, are the protagonist Aryas of the Rigveda
    who disregard both severance {apapitvam: i.e. non-relationship with
    the aJAmi, niSTya, DAsas, non-kinsmen, non-PUrus) as well as close
    connexion {prapitvam: i.e. relationship with the jAmi, sanAbhi, Aryas,
    kinsmen, PUrus) when they set out to do battle.

    We might want to reflect on that, because it sounds like the way Talageri explains "three directions = three tribes = all tribes", particularly because this would immediately place Purumidha in the middle. As to whether this is possible with the names of sons of Suhotra such as "Kusa", it may be. We might guess Kasya is in the middle and Kusa in the east.

    Visvamitra has taken someone considered a descendant of Bharata even in the Puranas, and perhaps elevated him to a position too close to rivaling Bharata or another lineage head.

    It doesn't quite say "a couple", but Book Ten does say Kusika with Ratri, not Ghrtaci.

    Up to this point, I have noticed Night mentioned a few times as the Sister of Dawn and they function like weavers, which would be significant for Hingula Mata, who may have been at the time of King Sudas or shortly after. Book Six in fact uses a different term, Nakta, to say Agni is luminous at night.

    Correspondingly, there was an Atiratra or overnight ceremony.

    A satisfactory explanation is provided along with the suffix "-uttama" by Sayana:

    the opulent uṣas

    uṣā indratamā

    Most prominent in movement: aṅgirastamā = gantritamā, most going; may also be a reference to aṅgirasas, of whose race the Bhāradvājas, a branch, are said to be cognate with the night: aṅgiro gotrair bhāradvājaihsaha ratrerutpattiḥ, hence night is elsewhere termed bharadvāji, rātrirvā bhāradvāji (rātrī kuśikahsaubharo rātrirvā bhāradvājī: RV. 10.127). aṅgirastamā, most aṅgirasa, is applied to the dawn because it is the same thing as the end of the night

    This again puts "Saubhara" as suggestive of "Bharadhvaja", and that this family characterizes the Night becoming More and More Angiras.

    As well as retaining Jamadagni, the progenitor of all remaining Bhrgus:

    NArAyaNa is a ViSvAmitra gotra; and the hymn by
    NArAyaNa, who is not given any patronymic, is
    placed immediately after a hymn by a ViSvAmitra:
    Renu VaiSvAmitra (X.89).

    The Prajapatyas are Visvamitras, who collectively have authority on the subject of Creation.

    Faintly echoing here, Bhrgus are authors on Death:

    The BhRgus are clearly not the priests of the Bharatas, and,
    equally clearly, they are associated with a particular other tribe: the

    The names Anu and BhRgu are used interchangeably: compare
    V.31.4 with IV.16.20, and VII.18.14 with VII.18.6.

    Visvamitra in some weird way winds up being responsible for the baskets of Creation and Death.

    Well, again, coming from the view of mantra and yoga schools, we would say it is a little more in-depth, because it means the Houses of Jupiter and Venus.

    We might say the second has the Sanjivani which is a resurrection power similar to Amrita.

    The internal relationships are such that:

    Agastya was VasiSThas brother, and Jamadagni
    was ViSvAmitras nephew.

    In the Early Period, we find only 3 verses (111.62.16-18) by
    a BhRgu (Jamadagni), all of which are jointly composed with
    ViSvAmitra, the eponymous RSI of the MaNDala. Jamadagni,
    by all traditional accounts, is the nephew of ViSvAmitra, his
    mother being ViSvAmitras sister.

    So, yes, what looks like a "son" or "grandson" may more accurately be "nephew". Aside, perhaps, from reproduction, the Veda does not care if your "real" father is your "real father", because it believes in environment and conditioning more than heredity. Whoever influenced you most is your father.

    Satyavati is Visvamitra's sister in later literature.

    She is recycled probably at least four times in the Epic, but is only in the Veda in a Sayana comment about Usa:

    Mistress of the sacrifice: ṛtāvarī = yajñavatī, satyavatī, truthful

    Kusa's first wife is Vaidarbhi, and from his second wife, for Gadhi there is this ambitious idea:

    Son of Kuśika, wife Paurukutsi.

    Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa III. 66. 35. 58.

    Then his daughter is supposed to be Satyavati, but, while "satya" is a very abundant term in the Rg Veda, it does not seem to amount to a name anywhere. There are a few compounds such as the Pitrs' Satyamantra:

    The Fathers found the light that lay in darkness, and with effectual words begat the Morning.

    and also a "Satyavak" as used by Visvamitra to himself.

    Then, similarly to Sayana's comment, in the previous verse by Prajapati Visvamitra Vac:

    Heaven and earth, endowed with truth, they who are the ancient declarers of the truth

    ṛtāvarī rodasī satyavācaḥ |

    So, those are almost epithets of Rodasi, and it is seen one more time by Vasistha on Asura:

    We will extol at sacrifice for ever, as men may do, Agni whom Manu kindled,
    Your very skilful Asura, meet for worship, envoy between both worlds, the truthful speaker.

    dūtáṃ ródasī satyavā́cam

    Jamadagni's father Rcika is not in the Veda but in several Puranas:

    Ṛcīka (ऋचीक).—(AJĪGARTA). A famous sage. Genealogy. From Viṣṇu were descended in the following order-Brahmā-Bhṛgu-Cyavana-Ūrva-Ṛcīka. Ṛcīka was the father of Jamadagni and grandfather of Paraśurāma.

    Ṛcīka (ऋचीक).—The son of Nāhuṣi (Aurva) and father of Jamadagni by Satyavatī; the sage who married Gādhi's daughter by paying a price of a thousand white horses with one black ear. (See satyavatī). A mantrakṛt compared to Dhiṣṇi fire. Blessed his wife with a caru and his mother-in-law with another for the birth respectively of a Brāhmaṇa and a Kṣatriya son. His wife wrongly took that intended for her mother. She gave birth to Jamadagni and became converted as Kauśikī river; father of two other sons Śunahśepa and Śunahpuccha; had 100 sons who in turn had 1000 sons—all Bhārgavas.

    We do not find those parents in the Rg Veda, but this is simple enough:

    Kauśikī (कौशिकी).—Also see Kauśika.

    1) Name of a river in Bihar.

    (commonly Kosi or Koosa, created by Viśvā-mitra, or identified with Satyavatī, the sister of Viśvā-mitra)

    Mercury presides over the western half of the Lohitya river, the Indus, the Sarayū, the Gāmbhīrika, the Ratha, the Ganges and its tributary the Kauśi [i.e., Kauśikī].

    The river is notable for Jamadagni and Visvamitra.

    I am not sure if I should call it "my thesis", because we are just looking objectively about 150 km from Simla to Nirmand:

    This village has been in existence since the early Vedic period, making it one of the oldest rural settlements in India.

    which is associated with Parasurama and Ambika or Bhadra Kali.

    Further away at 270 km out of Simla, Manali:

    Manali is the beginning of an ancient trade route through Lahaul (H.P) and Ladakh, over the Karakoram Pass and onto Yarkand and Hotan in the Tarim Basin of China.

    When they say "ancient", they mean around 300 B. C. E., without much research put into this labyrinthine pass. Manali is the height of Kullu Valley and was called "World's End", is the lair of Hidimba Devi. And so we think it is here that Sages using the name "Manu" worked on the New Books. And it is these same rivers going across the Punjab where Visvamitra used his powers.

    The modern names of the rivers involved are Sutlej and Beas:

    SudAs with his earlier priest ViSvAmitra is associated with the
    SutudrI and VipAS, and with his later priest VasiSTha is associated
    with the ParuSNI which is to the west of the two other rivers.

    The SutudrI and VipAS are not referred to in a casual vein.
    They are referred to in a special context: hymn 111.33 is a special ode
    to these two rivers by ViSvAmitra in commemoration of a historical
    movement of the warrior bands of the Bharatas led by SudAs and
    himself, across the billowing waters of these rivers.

    The battle is fought on the ParuSNI and the enemies of SudAs
    (who is referred to here as the PUru) are described in VI 1.5.3 as the
    people of the AsiknI. The Asiknl is to the west of the ParuSNI hence
    it is clear that the enemies of SudAs are fighting from the west of the
    ParuSNI while SudAs is fighting from the east.

    This crossing, and the successful foray into the northwest,
    appears to have whetted the appetite of SudAs and the Bharatas for
    conquest and expansion: shortly afterwards, the ViSvAmitras
    perform an aSvamedha sacrifice for SudAs, described in 111.53.11:

    Come forward KuSikas, and be attentive; let loose SudAs's horses to
    win him riches. East, west, and north, let the king slay the foeman.

    ...then at earths choicest place {vara A pRthivyA = KurukSetra)
    perform his worship.

    While some expansion took place towards the east as well
    (KIkaTa in 111.53.14), the main thrust of the expansion is clearly
    towards the west and northwest: the first major battle in this long
    drawn out western war is on the YamunA, the second (the
    DASarAjha) on the ParuSNI, and the final one in southern
    Afghanistan beyond the Sarayu.

    VasiSThas predecessor was ViSvAmitra, and under his priesthood
    SudAs had fought a battle, considerably to the east of the Punjab,
    with the KIkaTas of Bihar.

    While SudAs was still the leader of the Bharatas in the battles on
    the YamunA and the ParuSNI, the battle beyond the Sarayu appears
    to have taken place under the leadership of his remote descendant
    Sahadeva in the Middle Period of the Rigveda.

    SudAs himself
    has the Kutsas also as his priests (besides the new families of
    priests: the ViSvAmitras and the VasiSThas); and SudAs's
    descendants Sahadeva and Somaka have the Kutsas and the
    VAmadevas as their priests.

    Being careful about redactions, the following negates, for example, the appearance of "gandharva" in III.38.6:

    According to the Aitareya BrAhmaNa (VI. 18), six hymns (111.21,
    30, 34, 36, 38-39) were seen (i.e. composed) by ViSvAmitra at a
    later point of time to compensate certain other hymns which were
    seen by ViSvAmitra but were misappropriated by VAmadeva.

    Not many others involved here:

    non-ViSvAmitras are present as junior
    partners with the ViSvAmitras in two hymns (1 out of 11 verses in
    hymn 36; and 3 out of 18 verses in hymn 62)

    ViSvAmitra, whose junior associate is
    Ghora ANgiras

    We might wonder if Kusika was perhaps pushing a Bharata-like status as in III.26:

    We of the race of Kuśika offering oblations, desirous of wealth, having contemplated him in our minds, invoke with praises the divine Vaiśvānara...

    Vaiśvānara is kindled in every age by the Kuśikas...

    Age after age Vaisvanara, neighing like a horse, is kindled with the women by the Kusikas.

    Vaisvanara was clearly reverenced by Bharadvaja, who calls him a Sage, Chakravartin, and Guest:

    kaviṃ samrājam atithiṃ

    But he seems to know nothing of any Kusa or Kusika.

    They take a dramatic tone in III.29:

    The Kuśikas, the first-born of Brahmā...

    They have already drank Soma:

    pibadhvaṃ kuśikāḥ somyam madhu ||

    Vaisvanara may have the honored status of a Simha in III.2:

    He stirs with life in wombs dissimilar in kind, born as a Lion or a loudly-bellowing Bull...

    Navagva are found in III.39 which also praises Mithuna.

    Unusual expression in III.54:

    Deft worker, skilful-handed, helpful, holy, may Tvastar, God, give us these things to aid us,
    Take your delight, Ye Rbhus joined with Pusan: ye have prepared the rite with stones adjusted.


    Supreme dominion is Asura:

    Tvastar the God, the omniform. Creator, begets and feeds mankind in various manner.
    His, verily, are all these living creatures. Great is the Gods' supreme dominion.

    III.61 begins with:

    purāṇī́ devi yuvatíḥ púraṃdhir ánu vratáṃ carasi višvavāre

    Thou, Goddess, ancient, young, and full of wisdom, movest, all-bounteous! as the Law ordaineth.

    To Usas:

    ṛtā́varī divó arkáir abodhy ā́ revátī ródasī citrám asthāt

    We have seen it a few times; in Book Six, Rtavari was perhaps collective for "Sisters of Sarasvati".

    We are not sure the script should be de-sexualized as in III.5:

    ā yonim agnir ghṛtavantam asthāt pṛthupragāṇam uśantam uśānaḥ | dīdyānaḥ śucir ṛṣvaḥ pāvakaḥ punaḥ-punar mātarā navyasī kaḥ ||

    “Agni has taken his station in an asylum, brilliant, much-lauded, and as desirous (of receiving him) as he is (to repair to it); radiant, pure, vast and purifying, he repeatedly renovates his parents, (Heaven and Earth).”

    Here is one of the few things that could be said to be different or unique:

    Tradition ascribes the
    initiation of funeral rites and ceremonies to
    Jamadagni BhArgava.

    Notable from this hymn III.62:

    ...may the delightful (wives of the gods) shelter us with dwellings; may Hotā and Bhāratī (enrich) us with gifts.


    f. a female protector, guardian goddess (applied to a [particular] class of divine beings)

    may the delightful (wives of the gods) shelter us with dwellings; may Hotā and Bhāratī (enrich) us with gifts.

    “Be pleased by this my praise, and incline to this food-supplicating laudation as an excessively submissive (husband) to his wife.”

    ...his own light, which, from its consuming influences on ignorance and its consequences, is termed Bhargas:

    Bhargas (भर्गस्).—i. e. bhrāj, or bhṛj, + as, n. 1. Light

    4. Cooking, frying. E. bhrasj to fry, aff. lyuṭ; having scorched Kamadeva to ashes, with a look.

    Savitr assists with:

    bhagasya rātim īmahe ||

    For Jamadagni v. 16, his first line is:

    “Mitra and Varuṇa, sprinkle our cow-stalls with butter; performers of good works, (sprinkle) the worlds with honey.”

    He does not do very much. But that is the funeral director sneaking into the end of the Book.

    What is interesting is that Talageri suggests, for the Bhrgus or Bhargavas, most of their hymns that have ancient attributions really are ancient:

    This is confirmed also by the fact that the BhRgu hymns in
    MaNDalas VIII and IX are all old hymns (with the exception of IX.62,
    65, which are composed by late descendants of Jamadagni), the
    overwhelming majority of them even attributed to pre-Rigvedic
    BhRgu RSis, all of which were kept outside the Vedic corpus and
    included in it Only in the Late Period.

    The word PavamAna, which occurs more than a hundred
    times in the Soma PavamAna MaNDala, is found only once
    outside MaNDala IX: in VI11.101.14 composed by Jamadagni

    So probably except for a couple times in Book Nine, wherever it says Jamadagni is really him.

    Talageri does not pick up on the fact this would attach Rama, that is, Parasurama, to original Jamadagni even though his hymn is not used until it becomes Apri Hymn X.110, having the following sense where one cannot but smile:

    “Expanding wide, let the doors give access as gracefully decorated wives give access to their husbands, divine doors, spacious and admitting all, be easy of entry for the gods.”

    Sayana says:

    Vanaspatī = the deified yūpa, or sacrificial post

    Śamitā: immolator of the victim. The post, the immolator and the fire are here deified as the chief instruments or agents of the sacrifice

    and Rama makes the mantric point:

    ...the oblation presented with the svāhā

    This would mean historical Parasurama lived around the time of King Sudas.

    This would also mean the Apri does *not* come from an elder Bhrgu, it comes from him.

    There is, undoubtedly, a bizarre subterfuge that takes place via the Bhrgus in the Rg Veda. They are held to be primordial, but they are not major authors in the Old Books, and stage a resurgence. I am not sure they are the exclusive origin of fire rites or Soma Offerings, like the battles fought are probably not really "for Soma", but there is reason for it to appear so.

    "Solar Kings" were important soon as they joined up in Book Five, while the legend, Mandhata, was important to Nabhaka Kanva of Book Eight. He is doubly important because the story is he drove out the Druhyus prior to Book Six. This is not said by the Veda itself. But it seems to be the necessary context.

    Talageri suggests that Ayu was a Druhyu king.


    This identity of the Anus and BhRgus is clear in VII.18: verse 14
    refers to the Anus and Druhyus, while verse 6 refers to the BhRgus
    and Druhyus.

    However, I think we should see a Bhrgu lineage that is easily traceable:

    AbhyAvartin CAyamAna, is identified in VI.27.8 as a PArthava

    PRthus or PArthavas (VII.83.1)

    King Prthu is certainly well-known:

    Pṛthu (पृथु).—(Vainya) the son got out of Vena by the churning of his right arm by the sages to save him from falling into hell

    Composer in the late Books:

    Vena Bhargava

    simply does not work with the Puranas.

    They go back before him to "Anga" and a heap of names not found in the Rg Veda.

    So far we would say Prthu or Parthava looks like a Bhrgu lineage.

    Vena --> Prthu --> ... --> Abhyavartin

    Then the next king switched sides:

    Kavi CAyamAna: VII. 18.8

    Even though he may have became a military enemy, he may still be equivalent to "Kavi Bhargava" of the late Books, because, he is a Bhargava.

    And, they may be referring to the most primordial of all, Matitha Yamayana, Bhrgu, or Cyavana Bhargava.

    What don't they say about this last one:

    Chyavana was a great sage, the son of sage Bhrigu. He was also known as Aurva.

    Cyavana (च्यवन) refers to the “fall (from heaven)”

    a sage who was in the company of Bharata

    Son of Suhotra

    son of Śukra and Paulomi

    son of Devāpi

    Father of Āpravānam and Dadhica.

    father of Sudāsa

    Cyavana married Āruṣi daughter of Manu. Aurva was the son born to Āruṣi from her thigh. In descending order from Aurva were born Ṛcīka—Jamadagni—Paraśurāma.

    Kikata is:

    ...noted for the sacred Gayā and the garden park rājagṛha, also for the āśrama of Cyavana.

    Book Seven already has legendary Cyavana and Atri.

    So yes but--which legend?

    Bhrgu is reverenced by an unusual Yadu (enemies as of VI.27) who speaks in VI.15:

    “Wonderful Agni, whom, adorable and upward flaming, the bhṛgus regard as a friend, deposited in the wood of (attrition), be pleased with vītahavya, since you are glorified by (his) praise everyday.”

    But if we look at a "fused" hymn by Bhargavas and Barhaspatyas, Prayoga refers to Agni as:

    “The gods, as mothers, have borne you Aṅgirasa, the seer, the immortal, the bearer of the oblation.”


    “Like Aurva Bhṛgu and like Apanvān, I invoke the pure Agni, dwelling in the midst of the sea.”

    The Rg Veda characterizes Prthu as a forefather of Yadu and Anu, which would make this attribution extremely difficult:

    Prithu is a King of the Solar dynasty and an ancestor of Rama. He is the son of Anaranya and the father of Trishanku.

    Yoga Vasistha almost makes sense in a passage that says the Mahabharata is obsolete and will be forgotten (because edited seven times):

    I keep in my mind the remembrance of the renowned Sibi, Nyanku, Prithu, Vainya, Nala, Nabhaga, Mandhata, Sagara, Dilipa and Nahusa kings of men and rulers of earth.

    The other significant claim is that goddess Prthvi received her name from Prthu:

    E. The feminine form of pṛthu, or pṛthu the king so named, and ṅīp aff.; the domain of king Prit'Hu.

    The Rg Veda does not have a book where Bharadvaja has not already stated that Agni sweeps over prthvi, the earth.

    He then relates "her" to Ghrtavati and Madhu.

    That strongly suggests an actual Prthu would have to be in the backstory near Bharata.

    Yes, you could probably say that Prthu, Mandhata, and Nahusa are roughly equivalent in time and nature.

    This quickly becomes a concern because:

    However, in the post-Rigvedic period, there is a sudden
    miraculous transformation in their status and position.

    In fact,
    before long they took charge of the whole Vedic tradition, and
    became the most important of all the families of Vedic RSis.

    The extent of their domination is almost incredible, and it starts
    with a near monopoly over the Vedic literature itself: the only
    recession of the Rigveda that is extant today is a BhRgu recession
    (SAkala): one (and the more important one) of the two extant
    recessions of the Atharvaveda is a BhRgu recession (Saunaka); one
    (and the most important one) of the three extant recessions of the
    SAmaveda is a BhRgu recession (Jaiminlya); and one (and the most
    important one among the four KRSNa or Black recessions) of the six
    extant recessions of the Yajurveda is a BhRgu recession (Taittirlya).

    The BhRgus are the only family to have extant recessions of all
    the four Vedas (next come the VasiSThas with extant recessions of
    two; other families have either one extant recession or none).

    Not only is the only extant recession of the Rigveda a BhRgu
    recession, but nearly every single primary text on the Rigveda, and
    on its subsidiary aspects, is by a BhRgu.

    a. The PadapAtha (SAkalya).

    b. The all-important Ar?ty/cra/77aA//s or Indices (Saunaka).

    c. The BRhaddevatA or Compendium of Vedic Myths (Saunaka).

    d. The RgvidhAna (Saunaka).

    e. The ASTAdhyAyl or Compendium of Grammar (PANini).

    f. The Nirukta or Compendium of Etymology (YAska).

    Later on in time, the founder of the one system (among the six
    systems of Hindu philosophy), the PUrva MImAMsA, which lays
    stress on Vedic ritual, is also a BhRgu (Jaimini).

    The dominance of the BhRgus continues in the Epic-Puranic
    period: the author of the RAmAyaNa is a BhRgu (VAImIki).

    The author of the MahAbhArata, VyAsa, is not a BhRgu (he is a
    VasiSTha), but his primary disciple VaiSampAyana, to whom VyAsa
    recounts the entire epic, and who is then said to have related it at
    Janamejayas sacrifice, whence it was recorded for posterity, is a
    BhRgu. Moreover, as Sukhtankar has conclusively proved {The
    BhRgus and the BhArata, Annals of the Bhandarkar Research
    Institute, Pune, XVIII, p.1-76), the BhRgus were responsible for the
    final development and shaping of the MahAbhArata as we know it

    In the PurANas, the only RSi to be accorded the highest dignity
    that Hindu mythology can give any person - the status of being
    recognised as an avatAra of ViSNu - is a BhRgu (ParaSu-RAma,
    son of Jamadagni).

    The BhRgus are accorded the primary position in all traditional
    lists of pravaras and gotras; and in the BhagavadgItA, Krishna
    proclaims: Among the Great RSis, I am BhRgu; and among words I
    am the sacred syllable OM (BhagavadgItA, X.25).

    In fact, down the ages, it is persons from BhRgu gotras who
    appear to have given shape to the most distinctive and prominent
    positions of Hindu thought on all aspects of life: KAma, Artha,
    Dharma and MokSa; from VAtsyAyana to KauTilya to Adi

    Why would this be common knowledge, and the actual Bharata clan and larger Angiras family almost covered up?

    The point of the Veda seems to be figuring out how to work together, as in Book Nine:

    IX.67 and IX. 107 are artificial hymns ascribed to the
    SaptaRsi or Seven RSis: BharadvAja, ViSvAmitra, Jamadagni,
    VasiSTha, Gotama, KaSyapa and Atri. (Incidentally no other
    hymn is ascribed to BharadvAja or ViSvAmitra, and of the two
    other hymns ascribed to VasiSTha, one ascription is clearly

    But the plot is thickened by:

    The AnukramaNIs classify the GRtsamadas as Saunahotra
    ANgiras paScAt Saunaka BhArgava: i.e. ANgirases of the
    Saunahotra branch who later joined the Saunaka branch of the
    BhRgus. However, the hymns clearly show that the GRtsamadas
    identify themselves only as Saunahotras (11.18.6; 41.14, 17) and
    never as Saunakas. They refer only to ANgirases (11.11.20; 15.8;
    17.1; 20.5; 23.18) and never to BhRgus. They refer only to the
    ancestral ANgiras RSi BRhaspati (who is deified in four whole
    hymns, 11.23-26, as well as in 11.1.3; 30.4, 9) and never to the
    ancestral BhRgu RSis AtharvaNa, Dadhyanc or USanA.

    Because I, at least, have noted a heavy presence of Saunaka in the questionable parts of revisions through literature.

    The Rishi in Book Three who does not appear to fit is Utkila Katya, which is immediately recognizable as Katyayana.

    Kātya (कात्य):—m. = kātyāyana [gana] gargādi, [Pāṇini 4-1, 105.]

    But it is just because he is named after Kata Visvamitra:

    Kata (कत).—A Kauśika and a sage.*

    * Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa II. 32. 118.

    We can see this in the Puranic Angiras lineages, because these are tangible since this is the way in which close inter-marriage is forbidden, starting from the mythic level:

    These ten sons of Aṅgirā was supposed to be the gods who drank somarasa .

    with what looks like its own iteration of Seven Sages:

    Bṛhaspati, Gautama, Sanvarta, Utathya, Vāmadeva, Ajasya and Ṛṣija were the Gotra Pravartaka (tribe promoter).

    and then the first identifiable human group is founded by:

    The Pravara of these sages were Aṅgira Suvacotathya and Maharṣi Uśija.

    whose disciples or descendants include:

    Utathya, Gautama, Kauṣṭiki, Kairati, Bhargavata, Soma, Atrāyani, Kauśalya, Parthiva...

    collectively, the Gora Pravartaka, probably meaning the same as Ghora Angiras.

    Followed by the next wave, as if Book Six:

    the Aṅgirā, Bṛhaspati and Bhardvāja Pravara

    then increasing waves:

    the Aṅgira, Bṛhaspati, Bharadvāja, Garga and Saitya.

    the generation with Katya:

    the Aṅgira, Damavāhya and Urukṣaya Pravara .

    with Katyayana:

    the Aṅgirā, Bṛhadasva and Jivanāsva Pravara .


    There were three Pravara named Aṅgirā, Sadastu and Purukutsa in the Kutsa gotra .


    the Aṅgirā, ajamīda and Katya Pravara .

    Ṛkṣa, Bharadvāja, Ṛṣivān, Mānava and Maitravara these five sages were called as Arṣeya. The five sages all were in the Aṅgirā, Bharadvāj, Bṛhaspati, Maitravara, Ṛṣivān and Mānava Pravara.

    Sayana's comment to the first verse of Book Three attempts to summarize his plight:

    Viśvāmitra was a kṣatriya, of royal or military profession, and was also a monarch for some time; he descended from Kuśa or the lunar lineage and was the ancestor of many royal and saintly persons, who, like himself, were called after their common ancestor, Kuśikas, or Kauśikas. By the force of his austerities, he compelled Brahmā to admit into the Brāhmaṇa order. He sought this position to be equated with Vasiṣṭha, which whom he had disputed earlier. The circumstances of his dispute with Vasiṣṭha are detailed in the Rāmāyaṇa; the legend is also told in the Mahābhārata, Vāyu, Viṣṇu and Bhāgavata Purāṇas. Viśvāmitra and Vasiṣṭha had the patronage of hostile princes; but both had friendly relations with the royal family of Ayodhyā, or King Daśaratha and his son, Rāma.

    That may be almost entirely wrong.

    The translators neglect an important idea in the first verse of Book Three that was not used in Book Six:


    It also uses the new expression Virupa:

    03.001.13b 11 vánā jajāna subhágā vírūpam

    03.038.09c 11 gopā́jihvasya tasthúṣo vírūpā

    03.053.07a 11 imé bhojā́ áňgiraso vírūpā

    The last reference being to:

    Bounteous [Bhoja] are these, Angirases, Virupas: the Asura's Heroes and the Sons of Heaven.
    They, giving store of wealth to Visvamitra, prolong his life through countless Soma-pressings.

    Usija overlooked in III.2:

    rātim bhṛgūṇām uśijaṃ kavikratum agniṃ

    We found "son of" or Ausija in Book Six.

    And this next reference from III.5 probably has nothing to do with geography or distance:

    “The mighty Agni, being the best of the heavenly luminaries, sustained the heaven with radiance, when the wind kindled the bearer of oblations, (till then concealed) in a cave from the Bhṛgus.”

    ud astambhīt samidhā nākam ṛṣvo 'gnir bhavann uttamo rocanānām | yadī bhṛgubhyaḥ pari mātariśvā guhā santaṃ havyavāhaṃ samīdhe ||

    Sayana says:

    Concealed from the Bhṛgus: yadi bhṛgubhyaḥ guhā santam: bhṛgubhyaḥ = ādityasya raśmibhyaḥ, from the rays of the sun

    In this book, there is a similar expression from VI.63:

    rātír eti jūrṇínī ghṛtā́cī

    in III.19:

    sudyumnā́ṃ rātínīṃ ghṛtā́cīm

    A possible source of the name Mathita in III.9.

    There should always be another river:

    On man, on Apaya, Agni! on the rivers Drsadvati, Sarasvati, shine richly.

    Here we may recall that the closest thing to a theological argument in the Veda is opposition to Devas having a Mura quality:

    Agni, infallible, lights Earth and Heaven, immortal Goddesses gracious to all men,-

    devī́ amṛ́te ámūraḥ

    Mūra (मूर).—a. Ved.

    1) Stupefied, bewildered.

    2) Foolish, silly, stupid.

    Mūra (मूर).—1. [adjective] stupid, dull.

    Mūra (मूर).—2. [adjective] rushing, impetuous.

    It very nearly says to quell Tamas and Rajas. Those sound like its two main meanings.

    Also in this Book is a Vimana:

    I am light threefold, measurer of the region exhaustless heat am I, named burnt-oblation.

    arkás tridhā́tū rájaso vimā́nó 'jasro gharmó havír asmi nā́ma

    It is also with Asura in III.3. But it is not apparent in Book Six.

    Dadhikra is in III.20 by:

    gāthī kauśikaḥ


    “The seven intelligent sages (the aṅgirasas) having ascertained that (the cows) were concealed in the strong (cavern), propitiated (Indra) by mental devotion; they recovered them all by the path of sacrifice; for Indra, knowing (their pious acts), and offering them homage, entered (the cave).”

    The sages freed them from their firmbuilt prison: the seven priests drove them forward with their spirit.
    All holy Order's pathway they discovered he, full of knowledge, shared these deeds through worship.

    vīḻau satīr abhi dhīrā atṛndan prācāhinvan manasā sapta viprāḥ | viśvām avindan pathyām ṛtasya prajānann it tā namasā viveśa ||

    having this composer:

    aiṣīrathīḥ kuśiko

    which is just sitting there. It would have to do with "son of":

    Isi (इसि) (Prakrit; in Sanskrit: Ṛṣi) refers to “seers”

    that probably has more use in Pali:

    ...(in brahmanic tradition) the ten (divinely) inspired singers or composers of the Vedic hymns (brāhmaṇānaṃ pubbakā isayo mantānaṃ kattāro pavattāro), whose names are given at Vin. I, 245; D. I, 104, 238; A. III, 224, IV. 61 as follows: Aṭṭhaka, Vāmaka, Vāmadeva, Vessāmitta, Yamataggi (Yamadaggi), Aṅgirasa, Bhāradvāja, Vāseṭṭha, Kassapa, Bhagu.

    Aiṣīrathi (ऐषीरथि):—m. Name of Kuśika (author of a Vedic hymn), [Sāyaṇa on Ṛg-veda i, 10, 11.]

    His comment is near the beginning; Book One starts with Visvamitras:

    Viśvāmitra, the sage, is the son of Kuśika;

    Legend: Kuśika, the son of Iṣirathi, was desirous of a son equal to Indra; he did penance and Indra was born as the son of Gāthi (Gādhi)

    Parallel from an article on Gayatri and Soma:

    Visvamitra – earlier known as Visvaratha – it is said, was the son of King Kaushika-Ushiratha (meaning, Ushiratha the son or the descendant of Kushika) who was valorous as the thousand-eyed Indra himself (sahasraksha-dyuti).

    8.4. The Visvamitra and his sons mentioned in several other passages of the Rig-Veda are also described as Kausika-s, the descendants of Kushika. This Kushika is a mythical figure. And the term Kushika is also an epithet for Indra.

    The later Rishis, the Kapileya-s and the Babhrava-s are mentioned in the Aitareya Brahmana (7.17) as descendants of Sunahsepa Devarata Vaisvamitra.

    Rg Veda already has this origin explained, which has been lost and replaced by volumes. If you ever read it like a book, in order as presented, you would see this in two minutes. I just now heard of it.

    A few more turns of phrase from III.53:

    ...this prayer of Viśvāmitra protects the race of Bharata.

    from among other denouncements:

    maganda = kusidin, or usurer

    instead taking on:

    “The daughter of Sūrya given by Jamadagni gliding everywhere and dissipating ignorance, has emitted a mighty (sound), and has diffused ambrosial imperishable food among the gods.”


    daughter of the sun: pakṣyā, the daughter of Pakṣa

    What pathway leadeth to the Gods? Who knoweth this of a truth, and who will now declare it?
    Seen are their lowest dwelling-places only, but they are in remote and secret regions.

    kó addhā́ veda ká ihá prá vocad devā́m̆ áchā pathyāā | kā́ sám eti
    dádṛšra eṣām avamā́ sádāṃsi páreṣu yā́ gúhyeṣu vratéṣu

    That is Sanskrit, Guha "Cave" <--> Guhya "Secret".

    Those are a few things from glancing through it. It sounds to me like employing a slightly enhanced vocabulary over the previous Book, not disputing dogma. Visually it does have a gravity for the Kusikas. He has insinuated they were not in favor with Indra before. But, there are things which place Kusa or Kusika on a pedestal. This seems difficult because we have reason to believe that it would be Mandhata who deserved any such role rivaling Bharata. If he had assisted the pre-Vedic Purus, then, perhaps a reason for the events is for the express purpose of bringing "Solar Kings" into the fore.

    Later Bhrgus consistently connect themselves with Angirases.

    Vasistha is not mentioned, and Mitravaruna is used very selectively. It is in III.20 after Dadhikra with:

    the Vasus, the Rudras, and Ādityas.

    which is unclear or not stated in Book Six.

    Mitravaruna is also in III.56 by Prajapati Visvamitra Vac, and in III.62. It perhaps is somewhat recalcitrant, because a corresponding argument was about a rift between Mitra Angirases and Varuna Bhrgus. I am not trying to answer or explain Zoroaster, since the desired result remains the balance as usually printed, Mitravaruna.

    This author even has Mitra in his name, and, upon closer inspection, there are several examples of "Mitras" or "Mitro" in a line with Varuna. The acquisition of any actual Bhrgus has not led to a flurry of Varuna crusades here.

    I am not convinced they had an archaic reign over Soma, either. There may have been regular, external, objective beverages involved, as it could hardly be symbolic if there was no symbol. The fact of it being less of a resource to be gained, and, more of something to be felt and understood:

    The KaSyapas are indeed very closely associated with Soma: not
    only are 70.60% of the verses composed by them dedicated to
    Soma PavamAna, but the AprI-sUkta of the KaSyapas is the only
    AprI-sUkta dedicated to Soma (all the other nine AprI-sUktas are
    dedicated to Agni).

    Sunashepa is also greatly distorted and again, we want to think of him as mainly symbolic, Human Sacrifice and how he found Redemption while on the Post. Here, the Veda discusses liberation from sin, not from cyclic existence, such as:

    In Rig Veda (I.24.12-13), he is said to have been seized by the bonds of Varuna to whom he offers prayers for his release. In Rig Veda V.2.7, he is said to have been released by Agni from the thousand-fold bonds with which he was fettered.

    He has two (or more) similar stories about being forced into this debacle, which is being performed by this group:

    Visvamitra was his Hotr, Jamadagni his Adhvaryu, Vasistha his Brahma and Ayasya his Udgatr.

    So would we allege Visvamitra normally took part in killing and burning a young human being, until some upstart foils his plans?

    That sounds wonky to me, whereas the oldest Big thing drawn at Bhimbetka is the Boar, we go to a Hariyupia "battle" and then another Yupa for "human sacrifice", with the post remaining related to the boar in later art based from "the lump" of creation.

    It sounds more realistic these hymns are layers, i. e. Hiranyagarbha is mental and subtle, Purusha and Devi are projected beings/individualization, and the Post is material.

    Well, we have to concede the Rg Veda implies the prior existence of the foreigner, Mandhata. Going from the site with the Composers list, they have collected every iteration of Visvamitra and Vasistha on one page. In this case, it means Visvamitra I is the son of Gadhi, so i. e. is Vedic. However, considering Vasisthas are Ikshvaku priests, the Vedic Rishi is fourth--we can ignore most of what is on this page, but the compilation results in Vasistha III as the priest of Ikshvaku, who caused Nimi of Videha to become Bodyless, leading to the creation of Vasistha & Agastya and of Janaka, founder of Mithila. This is the Nimi of Pali Buddhism.

    Visvamitra adopts a son from...someone. Sayana refers to two legends--son of Rcika or of Hariscandra.

    The Rigveda, however, contains merely the statement of Śunahśepa’s deliverance from peril of death by the divine help, and the Yajurvedas simply say that he was seized by Varuṇa (perhaps with dropsy), but saved himself from Varuṇa’s bonds.

    We find the discrepancy in the oldest layers of non-Vedic texts; Hariscandra is from Aitareya Brahmana, and Rcika is in Ramayana. The Rg Veda is silent on the matter.

    Likewise, just because both Sages talk about "enemies", that has no connotation they mean each other.

    Talageri says:

    Quote There is absolutely nothing in the Rigveda or in any other Vedic text or in any reference from the Puranas or the Epics to suggest that Vasiṣṭha and Viśvāmitra were antagonists in this battle, or that Viśvāmitra was anywhere in the picture in the battle, and no-one has been able to produce the slightest evidence for such a claim.

    The only fact that can be ascertained from the Rigveda is that Viśvāmitra was the earlier priest of Sudās when he started out on his campaign of conquest, and he was later replaced by Vasiṣṭha.

    Viśvāmitra may have been replaced by Vasiśṭha either because differences arose between Sudās and Viśvāmitra, or because Sudās under Viśvāmitra failed to conquer the Paruṣṇī territory after crossing the Vipāś and Śutudrī and consequently he felt that Vasiṣṭha was a better bet. This is confirmed by the fact that the eastern battles on the Yamunā are also mentioned only in book 7 and not in book 3, and perhaps it was Sudās' eastern conquests under his new priest Vasiṣṭha that convinced him to resume his western campaign from the point where he had earlier left off after crossing the Vipāś and Śutudrī, There is no specific data and we can only speculate. But none of this indicates that Viśvāmitra fought against Sudās in this battle, and if he did do so, there is no reason why such an important fact would have remained unmentioned in the Rigveda.

    Viśvāmitra has no connection at all with the dāśarājña battle.

    From a thorough analysis by others, any serious adversity between the two Rishis is a concoction.

    Sunashepa composed a fair number of hymns, there was plenty of opportunity to reveal any important skullduggery, or even his biological parentage if that was meaningful in any way.

    Chandigarh is in the Sivalik foothills, near the border of Punjab and Haryana. It is about 100 km to Simla via Solan, which is a site of Sulini Devi. Then Nirmand is another link. Finally there is Manali.

    What is curious is the Kirats do not speak much of Yalambar, however, Sambar is one of their most common names.

    This does seem to make the actual reflection to Divodasa of the Rg Veda according to Subba 2023:

    Kirat, the Kashi dynasty, entered from the south, the southwestern direction of Nepal, according to Kirat history. They were also known as Khambongba. They invaded Nepal from the Terai region via the Indus, Ganga River, and Simraungadh/ Simangadh.

    Kirat and Mongol races were widely mixed, especially during the battle of Devasur in the Indus Valley. After the Aryans conquered the Kirats, the Kirats marched east to the Himachal Pradesh region of India.

    During the Devasur battle, after being beaten by Indra, Samba/ Shambar fled the plains and took refuge in the hills. He waged a 40-year-long guerrilla war against Indra to recover control. According to Thulung, the final phase of the Devasur War after Persia and Arabia occurred in Sapta Sindhu (Thulung, 1985). Meanwhile, history tells that the Sapta Sindhu, a Marut, Asura, Das, and Dasyu lineage, mingled with Mongols and evolved into the organized Kirat race. They fled to Nepal during and after the fight with Devasur. The ancient words Sab, Saba, and Samba with Kirat entered Nepal simultaneously from the west and south. Recent historical studies and research have provided significant support for this historical fact. Archaeology, genetics, history, and linguistics in-depth analyze the Chinese-Tibetan and Tibetan-Burmese language families. According to this research, a group of Tibeto-Burmese-speaking people from Xinhua, China, entered the Himalayan region (Nepal) via Sapta Sindhu and the plains from the west of Nepal during the Neolithic period.

    Another Tibeto-Burmese-speaking group appears to have entered the Himalayas (Nepal) from the north and east of Nepal in the Neolithic period via the Brahmaputra Sikkim and Assam.

    The facts above are supported by ancient history from India and Nepal. Between 1700 and 1500 BC, Arya traveled to Sapta Sindhu and India. They arrived at the East Sindh River's banks. At that point, the Kirat Asuras had already established a prosperous kingdom. Samba was an eminent Kirat-Asura king then (Nahar, 1956b; Mabohang & Dhungel, 1990). It is stated in Rigveda Richa 2.13.6. "Yah Shatan Shambarsya" refers to destroying one hundred Samba- Shambar and Namuchi. Those were samba-related events. In a battle, the Aryas vanquished Kirat Asura King Samba. The Kirat-Asura monarch and his followers fled east after being defeated in battle. They created a Kinnar State there (Sankritiyan, 1951). Kinnar is currently known as Himachal Pradesh in India which is seen west of Nepal on a map. Many Mongols arrived from the north during the Devasura War. Kirats and Mongols shared ancestors such as Asuras, Das, and Maruts. As a result, a massive Kirat race arose. They spread southward after migrating from there (Chemjong, 1961). Naturally, the Ganges River was the primary route for human migration to the Ganga Plain and Assam. Because of the lush terrain, the population spread quickly. The Kirat took this route and eventually settled in Nepal (Chemjong, 2003a).

    That is how the Samba ancestors' voyage was demonstrated by history and genealogy.

    Samba's ancestors settled in Mewa Khola and Tamber Khola between the first and fifteenth centuries BC (SenChobegu, 2007; Pandeya, 2013)

    Kirat history says that the Samba king and his followers entered Nepal after being displaced by Arya. By then, the Mongols had mixed with the Kirat race, known as Maruts, Asuras, Dasas, and Dasyus. History tells us that the Mongol- blooded Kirat dynasty was transformed into an organized Kirat dynasty.

    He says associated artifacts have been discovered at:

    Jumla Sambalol

    He is making an understatement because HP is not Indic. Kirats were the inhabitants of Trans-Himalaya. It is entirely likely they expanded into Punjab and became some of the Dasas in the Rg Veda adversaries.

    One does not expect Kirats to be Druhyus. Logically, if Mandhata must have been before the Veda, but, it was in a similar format where Vasisthas are his family priests, then Vedic Vasistha is named for non-Vedic Vasistha. There may even be a way they arrive from this grey zone. Here is a bit on Mandhata from general Itihasa:

    His Campaigns

    Mandhata on assuming power organized a strong army and led a series of expedition against his neighbouring kingdoms. The rulers of Kashi and Maithila and his uncle Tansu, the ruler of Prathisthan accepted his suzerainty. Other important rulers whom Mandhata vanquished were Janmejaya the king of Anavas, the Yadava king Sasabindu of Mahishamati and Marutta a king described as one of the five great emperors of ancient India and ruling over territory around North West India. The Asura kingdoms of Varshikha and Narmani were also subdued. Mandhata had a long war with the Druhyu king Angara who ruled over Punjab and finally killed him and conquered his kingdom. Angara’s son Gandhara accepted the suzerainty of Mandhata, moved towards North-West (Afghanistan) and gave his name to that region.

    He is said to have a certain relation to a Vedic Rishi:

    Saubhari saw two fishes engaged in coition, while he was doing penance on the banks of the Yamunā. This sight aroused matrimonial thoughts in the hermit’s mind. He instantly approached Māndhātā and informed him of his desire to marry a princess.

    Māndhātā did not like to give his daughter in marriage to the old hermit. Concealing his thought, he told the hermit as follows:—"Out of my fifty daughters, she who wishes to be your wife, shall be given to you." Saubhari, who had already read the thought of Māndhātā entered the harem in the shape of a handsome fine youth, and all the fifty damsels liked him. Thus Saubhari married all of them, and begot hundred sons of each of them.

    This matrimonial life lasted for some time. At last the hermit grew weary of this life. Discarding everything, Saubhari went to the forest. His wives, who also had become disinterested in worldly enjoyment, followed him.

    But here I think they have mixed up one of a later period.

    Trasadasyu is referred to as a patron and contemporary by only
    three RSis:

    Atri Bhauma (V.27.3)

    SamvaraNa PrAjApatya (V.33.8)

    Sobhari KANva (VIII.19.32)

    Sobhari is the only KaNva RSI to pay homage
    to the memory of DivodAsa (VI11.103.2) and to call him an Arya.

    And we know he probably had an interest in making Solar Kings have an ancient appearance. Therefor a few "demi-god" lines were altered into older books. That may be the beginning of why these Solar dynasties look drawn out and redundant at the same time. It would be like taking this late "Sobhari" and placing him in Mandhata's era.

    The similarity is also found by Ram Abloh working on the same project of Rishi lineages:

    Sobhari Kāṇva is possibly the father of Kuśika, who is the grandfather of Viśvāmitra. So essentially, even Viśvāmitra belongs to the ancient Āṅgirasa lineage. On the other hand, there is also a Kuśika Aiṣῑrathi mentioned in the third maṇḍala. So it is not fully clear what the complete lineage could be...

    Sobhari Kāṇva (RV 8.19–22, 103)

    Kuśika Saubhara (RV 10.127) or Kuśika Aiṣῑrathi (RV 3.31)

    Of course, rather than being older, Kusika Saubhara could be the disciple of Sobhari Kanva in the late period, while Kusika Aisirathi has no choice but to be ancient.

    [URL="https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Rig_Veda/Mandala_8/Hymn_19"]VIII.19[ /URL] has "We Sobharis" coming to the sovereign, the friend of Trasadasyu.
    Last edited by shaberon; 27th February 2024 at 07:01.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Book Three: Mandala Seven



    This is an extraordinarily compact Family Book, which, besides its main author, has a partial contribution from Shakti Vasistha and from the first instance of a pattern of descent being known:

    KumAra Agneya (a member of the Agneya group
    of BharadvAja RSis), a descendant of BharadvAja of MaNDala VI.

    What happens here is the beginning of India as we know it:

    SudAs's priest in the battle of ten kings was VasiSTha.

    The ParuSNI and AsiknI, also, are not referred to in a casual
    vein: they also are referred to in a special context. The context is a
    major battle fought on the ParuSNI by the Bharatas under SudAs
    and VasiSTha (who replaced ViSvAmitra as the priest of SudAs).

    In VII.83.1, two of the tribes fighting against SudAs, the PRthus
    and the ParSus, are described as marching eastwards {prAcA).

    We just don't know anything about why Vasistha spontaneously appears in this role. I am surprised that no one has accused Visvamitra as being the same as Vasistha. You might think that if you hadn't always been told they were fighting. But, the Veda names them differently and we will suppose them different. The former was perhaps a bit overzealous about:

    indra kauśika

    but, this concerns Bihar, as does the background of the Ramayana.

    The Ramayana concerns Solar Kings, such as Mandhata, whom we have ascertained as a pre-Vedic legend who did the very objective deed of driving the Druhyus out of the Punjab.

    So it is probably a fair claim that this Vasistha composing Mandala Seven is named for an earlier one who was the priest of Mandhata.

    Certainly the Vedic one is Mitravaruna:

    Mitrāvaruṇa (मित्रावरुण).—The combined name of two of the Dvādaśādityas (twelve Sūryas) Mitra and Varuṇa. These two are always seen together. Agastya and Vasiṣṭha were born as sons of Mitrāvaruṇa. It was due to a curse by Mitrāvaruṇas that Urvaśī had to marry King Purūravas, a man of the earth. Manu had no children and he performed a yāga to placate Mitrāvaruṇas. But since there were many faults in the ceremony a girl was born to him. (For details see under Ilā, Nimi, Urvaśī, Vasiṣṭha and Mitra).

    Mitravaruna may be said to be the rebirth of the Vasistha at the time of Nimi.

    The articles of folklore may be worthy of consideration when they reflect the scripture without contradicting it; and this is the case in a limited number of circumstances. Here, the timing and dynasty may not be fully possible, but the general idea of pre-Vedic Mandhata and Vasistha seems unavoidable.

    In terms of humanity or primordial man:


    Of the 11 verses in the other nine MaNDales, 9 are
    by the priests of SudAs and his descendant Somaka (i.e. by
    ViSvAmitra, VasiSTha, Kutsa and VAmadeva).

    In VII. 18.3, VasiSTha, speaking on behalf of the Bharata king
    SudAs, addresses Indra with the plea: May we, in sacrifice,
    conquer (the) scornful PUru(s).

    The Purus--which seems to mean "the many"--were partly aligned to the Bharatas, and others not.

    They do seem to be broadcasting the message that family and other relationships are not the real basis of friendship. They will just as soon do battle with such people:

    Aryas of the Rigveda: of the 34 hymns in which
    the word is used, 28 hymns are composed by the Bharatas,
    ANgirases and VasiSThas.

    There are nine hymns which refer to Arya enemies in the

    Birth karma meaning less than current behavior, I suppose. No favoritism. It is suggested that:

    VasiSTha wearing the vestments spun by Yama, who represents
    the BhRgus who are his enemies in the battle, can be understood
    only in the sense of a figure of speech indicating victory over his

    Therefore, this must also be the meaning of the only other
    references, in these hymns, to the vestments of the VasiSThas or
    the TRtsus: they are twice referred to as wearing what Griffith
    translates as white robes (VII.33.1; 83.8).

    The word Svityanca, which occurs only in these two verses in the
    whole of the, Rigveda, clearly has some unique connotation different
    from the commonplace meaning of white.

    On the lines of the references to the vestments spun by Yama, it
    is clear that the word Svityanca refers to the identity of the enemies:
    to the Spitamas, the particular priests of the enemies of SudAs and

    Perhaps. Sayana just calls it:


    But due to the lack of a real argument, the closer-to-unity view is found in the "plagiarism" of the Apri Hymn itself:

    In the case of the Rigveda it is significant that every single
    repetition pertains to a literary or liturgical phrase. In fact, the more
    literary or liturgical the reference, the more the likelihood of
    repetitions: the longest repetition of three consecutive verses is in
    the liturgical AprI-sUktas of the ViSvAmitras and VasiSThas: 111.4.8-
    11 = VII.2.8-11.

    Not a single repetition pertains to any historical reference: even
    when the same historical reference is found in four different verses,
    the phrasing is different: 1.53.10; 11.14.7; VI.18.13; VIII. 53.2.

    One more who repeats Vasistha phrases is:

    X.133.1 (SudAs Paijavana)

    They have a low representation in Soma Book Nine:

    VASISTHAS (1 hymn, 6 verses): 90

    And now I do notice something extraneous which will re-trace our steps in the previous book:

    ANga Aurava: X.138

    HavirdhAna ANgi: X. 11 -12

    The patronymics of these RSis show them to be descendants of
    Uru ANgiras (joint composer of IX. 108).

    This has obviously mixed the name "Anga", who has been re-interpreted as an ancient ancestor of "Aurva", which may be a conflation of phonetic similarity--obviously the name "Aurva Bhrgu" has been given separately (and previously) from this group. Should be a slightly different spelling "Aurava" for Anga "son of Uru".

    Concerning the relative chronology and that Book One is accreted:

    Kutsas are
    very close associates of the VasiSThas.

    The following is the situation in the MaNDalas and upa-maNDalas
    which we have classified as belonging to the Early Period:

    1. The two oldest MaNDalas VI and III do not refer to a single
    composer from any other MaNDala.

    2. The third oldest MaNDala VII refers to one composer from the
    older MaNDala III: Jamadagni (VII.96.3)

    MaNDala VII is also unique in its reference to three contemporary
    RSis to whom upa-maNDalas are ascribed in MaNDala I:

    Agastya (Vll.33.10,13)

    Kutsa (Vll.25.5)

    ParASara (VII.18.21)

    However, all these references make it very clear that these RSis
    are contemporaries of VasiSTha and not figures from the past:

    a. Agastya is VasiSThas brother.

    b. The Kutsas are junior associates of the VasiSThas.

    c. ParASara is VasiSThas grandson.

    The upa-maNDalas ascribed to Agastya and Kutsa, as we have
    already seen, consist of hymns composed by their descendants,
    while ParASara is himself a descendant of VasiSTha.

    Therefore, the references to these RSis in MaNDala VII not only
    do not show that MaNDala I is older that MaNDala VII, they in fact
    confirm that MaNDala VII is older than MaNDala I.

    3. The early upa-maNDalas of MaNDala I (i.e. the
    Madhucchandas, SunahSepa and ParASara upa-maNDalas) do not
    refer to any composer from any other MaNDala.

    Thus the three oldest MaNDalas and the three early upa-
    maNDalas are completely devoid of references to composers from
    the periods of any of the other MaNDalas, thereby firmly establishing
    their early position and their chronological isolation from the other

    Agastya and Kutsa are contemporaries of VasiSTha, but the
    upa-maNDalas which bear their names were composed by their
    descendants, and therefore figure as general upa-maNDalas which
    come later in time.

    Still resulting into something Puranic and mystical in character:

    However, it is clear that there is a mythical
    Atri in the Rigveda distinct from the historical Atri, and, for that
    matter, a mythical Kutsa distinct from the historical Kutsa: Macdonell,
    in his Vedic Mythology, classifies Atri and Kutsa along with Mythical
    Priests and Heroes like Manu, BhRgu, AtharvaNa,
    Dadhyanc, ANgiras, Navagvas, DaSagvas and USanA, whom he
    distinguishes from several other ancient seers of a historical or semi-
    historical character... such (as) Gotama, ViSvAmitra, VAmadeva,
    BharadvAja and VasiSTha.

    Yes, roughly put, it means the composers and the lore base they were drawing from. The question remains, which lore. For instance by including the love story of Pururavas and Urvashi, we must take this as part of the same Speech that said Urvashi in the first place.

    Beyond that, there is not much personal material about deities or humans that are praised in the hymns.

    If one thinks the Navagvas are practicing Honey Doctrine, and Dadhyan does not really have a lot of conflicting variations under the rubric of nationalism, both the pre-Vedic background and the Rg Veda itself seem much more sensible and coherent.

    And yes, it is noticeably head shy towards what would have been widely known as an icon of non-Bharata IVC:

    And even in the
    Rigveda, while the word vyAghra does not occur even once in the
    text, it occurs in the name of one of the composers of IX.97:
    VyAghrapAda VAsiSTha.

    Talageri senses there may have been a "taboo" on the inclusion of the tiger. But then many scholars *do* get attracted to what we would think would be Bactrian Eagle. This is probably not just Elamitic, but, also shared westwards into Bogazkoy and Hittite country. The Vedic Gayatri or Soma Bird is most likely a Hawk of a different species that was not used as a mascot or national or dynastic seal. We might expect some friction if Mandhata had driven the Druhyus towards Bactria. Also, it seems like there probably was an Aryan Invasion, but, it was limited *to* Bactria, and is also in part what India successfully repelled.

    Internally, India quit using any seals, and to whatever extent they may have been similar to IVC mythology, they drop the tiger completely.

    Let's see. Sudas had just taken over Bihar. Vasistha was already the royal priest lineage in regions near Bihar. Sudas defeated people called Kikatas, who are not thought to be the same as the people of Ayodhya. We said Ayodhya was symbolic, and even so, it is not as far away. And so, there is a mini-arc from Mandhata's time, when the Gangetic area must have been powerful, and then we don't know what happens until Sudas takes over the neighboring state, which really had to do with Visvamitra.

    He replaces a guy who may have been inclined to give non-Bharatas too much power, with a guy who is hardly of this world who is a product of an ancient non-Bharata lineage. The implication would be he is furthering the submission of any local rulers. I do not know if it really says that.

    But Vasistha is freaking weird and so when you pull this switch, you get a kind of revolution.

    There is an event virtually identical to the Parting of the Red Sea in VII.18:

    What though the floods spread widely, Indra made them shallow and easy for Sudas to traverse.
    He, worthy of our praises, caused the Simyu, foe of our hymn, to curse the rivers' fury.

    “The adorable Indra made the well-known deep waters (of the Paruṣṇi) fordable for Sudāsa, and converted the vehement awakening imprecation of the sacrificer into the calumnation of the rivers.”

    We are not sure if Vasistha cursed the river so that it flooded the enemies, or, the enemies began cursing when the river flooded them. I don't know grammar so I have no idea. I do know this verse contains terms which become names of people:

    árṇāṃsi cit paprathānā́ sudā́sa índro gādhā́ny akṛṇot supārā́
    šárdhantaṃ šimyúm ucáthasya návyaḥ šā́paṃ síndhūnām akṛṇod ášastīḥ

    gādhāny < gādhāni < gādha


    ucathasya < ucatha


    meaning Gadhi, father of Visvamitra, and Ucathya Angiras.

    The event obviously happened after they had these names. It is just a place where we see the verbal meaning of those names, particularly because the Sanskrit idiom in these old books is mostly lost before long. Moreover, the word being the same as Ucathya's name, it should be in the phrase "hew praise".

    Vasistha claims Jamadagni's influence in VII.96:

    “May the auspicious Sarasvatī bestow auspicious fortune upon us; may the faultless-moving food-conferring (goddess) think of us; glorified (as you have been) by Jamadagnī, (be now) glorified by Vasiṣṭha.”

    So may Sarasvati auspicious send good luck; she, rich in spoil, is never niggardly in thought,
    When praised in jamadagni's way and lauded as Vasistha lauds.

    Weren't they both eastern? Didn't Jamadagni sound like an Ayodhya or Bihar Bhrgu? Wasn't original Vasistha around Ayodhya or Bihar?

    They go west, are going west in this book, perhaps they are just blazing the trail for Trasadasyu? He doesn't come out of nowhere. Sudas and his descendants must have had some relationship with the eastern territory, even if it is not what is recorded. Here, we are only going to get the Bharata version, which of course is going to lack details on whatever the Solar Kings and their country had been up to.

    Talageri's review on VII.33 is underwhelming because most of it is written by a lineage:


    who say there was some type of priestly rivalry:

    The sons of Vasiṣṭha had undertaken a soma sacrifice to Indra on behalf of Sudāsa. They found that he was present at a similar solemnity instituted by the rājā Pāśadyumna, the son of Vāyata, on which they abused the rājā, broke off his sacrifice, and by their mantras, compelled Indra to come to that of their patrons.

    About Vasistha:

    A legend in the Taittirīya Saṃhitā tells us that among the sages it was Vasiṣṭha alone who could see Indra. The god taught him the Stomabhāgas with the charge that any king who had him as purohita would thereby flourish if Vasiṣṭha did not tell the Stomabhāgas to other sages. “Therefore—teaches the text—one should have a descendant of Vasiṣṭha (a Vāsiṣṭha) as one’s Brahman priest”. The Brahman was the priest who silently monitored the ritual. He was associated with the Atharvaveda and with the office of the family priest, the purohita of the patron of the sacrifice, the yajamāna. We may connect with these Vedic passages the tradition that Vasiṣṭha or several Vasiṣṭhas were the purohitas of the kings of Ayodhyā, the members of the Ikṣvāku—or Sūryavaṃśa.

    returning to the hymn:

    “In the same manner was he, (Sudāsa) enabled by them easily to cross the Sindhu river; in the same manner, through them he easily slew his foe; so in like manner, Vasiṣṭhas, through your prayers, did Indra defend Sudāsa in the war with the ten kings.”

    supported (by the Tṛtsus) in the war with the ten rājās

    Evidently there had been a low point:

    “The Bharatas, inferior (to their foes), were shorn (of their possessions), like the staves for driving cattle,(stripped of their leaves and branches); but Vasiṣṭha became their family priest, and the people of the Tṛtsus prospered.”

    How could this be?

    Aren't we saying the Rg Veda is basically the book of the Bharatas and they just rolled through victories according to two sages??

    It may be that until the actual Battle of Ten Kings that some of those kings had already got the upper hand. It probably wasn't a plot by Visvamitra, but Sudas may be staging a comeback, so to speak.

    The Rg Veda is not really about an empire or nation per se. Talageri thinks the salient point is that the Bharatas have some other criteria for friendship that is not socio-political, and right now it is working especially well with what may be a non-Arya Ikshvaku priest.

    It appears the hymn is from a chorus of "the Vasisthas".

    Arcane topics are raised:

    “Three shed moisture upon the regions, three are their glorious progeny, of which the chief is night; three communicators of warmth accompany the dawn; verily the Vasiṣṭhas understand all these.”

    Sayana says:

    Three shed moisture: Śātyāana is cited: the three who send rain on the three regions of earth, mid-air, and heaven, are Agni, Vāyu and Āditya; they also diffuse warmth; their offspring are the Vasus, the Rudras, the Ādityas, the latter of whom are the same as Jyotiṣ, light.

    You would have to find "chief is night" in this unusual construct:

    āryā jyotiragrāḥ

    and then we might want to re-consider Yama:

    ta in niṇyaṃ hṛdayasya praketaiḥ sahasravalśam abhi saṃ caranti | yamena tatam paridhiṃ vayanto 'psarasa upa sedur vasiṣṭhāḥ ||

    “By the wisdom seated in the heart the Vasiṣṭhas traverse the hidden thousand branched world, and the Apsarasas sit down wearing the vesture spread out by Yama.”

    The hidden thousand-branched world: niṇyamsahasravalśam abhisañcaranti, they completely go over the hidden, tirohitam, or durjñānam, ignorant, sahasra valśam, thousand-branched, that is, saṃsāram, the revolving world of various living beings, or the succession of many births; the allusion is to the repeated births of Vasiṣṭha, who is the first of the Prajāpatis, or mind-born sons of Brahmā, who is the son of Urvaśī; hṛdayasya praketaiḥ prajñānaiḥ, internalconvictions or knowledge; this may imply the detachment of Vasiṣṭha or his sons from the world. The apsaras sit down: yamena tatam paridhim vayanto apsarasa upasedur vasiṣṭhāḥ: te vasiṣṭhāḥ, those vasiṣṭhas or that vasiṣṭha;

    Yamena = sarvaniyantrā, by the restrainer or regulator of all; kāraṇātmanā, identical with cause, that is, by acts, as the causes of vital condition; the garb paridhim, vastram, spread, tatam, by him, is the revolution of life and death; janmādipravāhāḥ, weaving, vayantaḥ; connecting this with apsarasaḥ, the nymphs, or, the nymph Urvaśī, who sat down or approached in the capacity of a mother, jananitvena, wearing that vesture which he was destined by former nets to wear.

    The actual or individual Vasistha concludes the hymn with only a few lines including Puskara Lake:

    viśve devāḥ puṣkare tvādadanta ||

    re-iterating his manifestation:

    “He, the sage, cognizant of both worlds, was the donor of thousands; he was verily donation; wearing the vesture spread by Yama, Vasiṣṭha was born of the Apsaras.”

    But he personally is mostly talking about:

    ...thence arose the great ascetic Agastya of the measure of a span, as measured by a measure (māna); he is therefore, caled upon earth Mānya.

    Pratṛts, Agastya comes to you [erroneous: should read "Vasistha"]

    Pratṛts = Tṛtsus

    As Talageri puts it:

    ...although SudAs and his descendants are
    Bharatas, the DASarAjna hymns refer to them as TRtsus, and the
    VArSAgira hymn refers to them as VArSAgiras.

    But he does not respond to this "Pratrts" note, which may be important depending on whether it should involve Pratardana.

    This one is challenging because Puranas make him a son of Yayati. In Rg Veda:

    Pratardana is referred to as a descendant of DivodAsa
    (AnukramaNIs of IX.96), the father of an unnamed King (VI.26.8),
    and ancestor of SudAs (VII.33.14).

    "Unnamed" is really "Ksatrasri"--he missed that. "Kasi Raja" is the title of Pratardana in Book Ten. That would mean a fairly old Bharata already ruled Kasi; except we think this neither happened nor existed. It is possible by the time of Book Ten, there may have been the foundations of the *actual* Kasi, and it may have gained its objective meaning. For the later confusion about Battle of Ten Kings:

    JB 3.244 which speaks of PratRd
    instead of his descendant SudAs.

    For context, here is a cognate in VII.18:

    E' en with the weak he wrought this matchless exploit: e' en with a goat he did to death a lion.
    He pared the pillar's angles with a needle. Thus to Sudas Indra gave all provisions.

    Yamuna and the Trtsus aided Indra. There he stripped Bheda bare of all his treasures.
    The Ajas and the Sigrus and the Yaksus brought in to him as tribute heads of horses.

    prā́tra bhedáṃ

    Pratar in VII.41 is nearly synonymous to Usas:

    at dawn

    I'm going to guess those are two different words, "pratr" and "pratar" may have been confused by someone post-Veda, but it appears the stem pratr- is almost specifically the "conquerors of Bheda" as in VII.83:

    With your resistless weapons, Indra-Varuna, ye conquered Bheda and ye gave Sudas your aid.
    Ye heard the prayers of these amid the cries of war: effectual was the service of the Trtsus' priest.

    apratí bhedáṃ

    Bheda is also in the "identity mantra" VII.33:

    07.033.03a 11 evén nú kaṃ síndhum ebhis tatāra
    07.033.03b 11 evén nú kam bhedám ebhir jaghāna
    07.033.03c 11 evén nú kaṃ dāšarājñé sudā́sam

    And the tribe of Pratrts--Bheda vanquishers:

    Born at the sacrifice, urged by adorations, both with a common flow bedewed the pitcher.
    Then from the midst thereof there rose up Mana, and thence they say was born the sage Vasistha.

    He brings the bearer of the laud and Saman: first shall he speak bringing the stone for pressing.
    With grateful hearts in reverence approach him: to you, O Pratrdas, Vasistha cometh.

    Vasaistha only speaks of Dasarajna here and in VII.83.

    Bheda is a person or people in Rg Veda Book Seven, and otherwise is the opposite of "Eka" or "unity" and the problem, challenge, or illusion of the body and multiplicity--but unknown as a human.

    Well, if Vasistha was the fulcrum that made the Ten Kings victory possible, then, we would give credence to what he says more than anything else.

    He perhaps is applying his own vocabulary to people who were known otherwise.

    For instance, "Trtsus" and "Pratrts" as the Bharatas and perhaps allies.

    Knowing that "Sambara" is an equivalent to "ancient reference", the main work of Vasistha is done in VII.18. Sayana says:

    Bheda: one who breaks or separates; may mean an unbeliever, a nāstika; or, the name of the enemy of Sudāsa

    “Your numerous enemies, Indra, have been reduced to subjection, effect at some time or other the subjugation of the turbulent Bheda, who holds men praising you as guilty of wickedness; hurl, Indra, your sharp thunderbolt against him.”

    “The dwellers on the Yamuna and the Tṛtsus glorified Indra when he killed Bheda in battle; the Ajas, the Śigrus, the Yakṣas, offered him as a sacrifice the heads of the horses (killed in the combat).”

    “Your favours, Indra, and your bounties, whether old or new, cannot be counted like the (recurring) dawn; you have slain Devaka, the son of Mānyamāna, and of thine own will, has cast down Śambara from the vast (mountain).”

    dévakaṃ cin mānyamānáṃ jaghanthā́va tmánā bṛhatáḥ šámbaram bhet

    bhet < bhid

    “break; incise; burst; divide; cut; cleave; destroy; cure; disturb; lance; break; distinguish; disclose; pierce; tear; separate; transgress; break open; scratch; penetrate; sever; bribe; grind; betray; fester; strike.”

    Bheda is someone who does not have multiple Puranic versions--he is almost entirely forgotten except for:

    1b) A son of Ṛkṣa; had five sons, Mudgala and others among whom were distributed the kingdom later known as Pāñcāla.*

    * Vāyu-purāṇa 99. 195.

    The more accessible name is kept in the Puranas as "father of Devaki", not a victim of Sudas.

    Vedic Devaka is the son of Manyamana:

    the proud one, [Ṛg-veda vii, 18, 20] ([literally] ‘the son of the proud’ [Sāyaṇa]‘the son of Manyamāna’).

    which has a generic meaning to think of, to be desirous of, as possibly in III.53 in the "conflict that didn't happen"; a bound Visvamitra is supposedly released. But it may be metaphorical.

    It potentially is a person's name or person in VI.19:

    humble that man who looks upon himself as the greatest

    That sounds reasonable for a Manyamana at the time of Sambara, and then the campaign against Bheda being the major accomplishment by Sudas with Vasistha's help.

    Talageri does nothing with this other than refute it means the Bharatas coming from Iran. We are no longer concerned with this argument, which was never really an argument, but a false premise that the Veda was written to document the conquering of India by literate, superior outsiders.

    We are concerned with why post-Vedic literature is oblivious to, or intentionally altering, the Veda's contents.

    In Book Seven, we also find the first appearance of "Apsaras", which was not mentioned by Bharadvaja or Visvamitra. It is not like he is trying to start a rumor that there is such a thing as a "celestial nymph", he is drawing from the idea that there are some and "my mother is one".

    Not in a way that anyone might confound for a legend of some lucky hunter or king or something, but, the reaction of two male Devas to her.

    He says so for himself and Agastya, who is also coming out for the Bharatas.

    Well, if we decide he is an organic human being, it is like being raised by Marut Gana, except it is conceived by three deities.

    I rapidly come to the conclusion "he knows something we don't". Some kind of awareness about being a piece of the sun that has shone from a prior lifetime.

    In other words, a bit beyond a successful practitioner of mantra, he is other-worldly.

    Curiously, he refers to "jyoti" about twice as much as his predecessors, his first instance in VII.5 being that of the first in VI.3:

    urú jyótir

    abundant light

    At the end of Book Seven, Hidden Light is combined with Satyamantra by the Pitrs.

    They were the Gods' companions at the banquet, the ancient sages true to Law Eternal.
    The Fathers found the light that lay in darkness, and with effectual words begat the Morning.

    This uses "Kavi" as the highest class of sages, above a Vedic Rishi.

    It may still be used as "poet", generally, but the passage above is as in the reasoning of Yaska who:

    Quote ...interprets kavi as one who can see the unseen (kavihi_krantha_darshano_bhavathi) . Here again it is the intuition that inspires the kavi to expand his consciousness and express himself spontaneously. Yaska suggests a close empathy, unison between the creator and his creation, and that each tends to become a part of the other.

    4. The Rig Veda further enlarges this concept and addresses the Creator as the Supreme Poet (kavir manishi paribhu swayambhuh) who conceives the grand design and expresses himself spontaneously through his creation. He is the seer, the thinker who expands his consciousness to encompass the entire Universe (Vishwa_rupaani_prathimancha_kavihi). The creator, the kavi, through his all-pervasive consciousness becomes one with his creation. That undoubtedly is the most sublime concept of a poet.

    Kavi is the forerunner of Rishi in the Rig Veda. He is the wise seer. One cannot be a Kavi unless one is a Rishi (naan rishir kuruthe kavyam). However, not all Rishis are kavis. A Kavi is a class by himself.

    The Kavi, the seer is the Sun (savitr, Agni) who shines by himself (swayabhu), who spreads light and life to benefit all beings. He is the great inspirer (sarvasya prasavita). The Kavis (mantra drastarah) envisioned the entities beyond the range of human senses and realized the Truth by direct intuition. They were the ones who had the direct intuitional perception and who conceived the self-evident knowledge (svatah pramana). The Kavis, the seers were “the hearers of the Truth” (kavayah satya_srurtah).

    Vamadeva, an unusual Rishi, in one of his hymns (RV 4.3.16) describes himself as illumined; expressing the Truth reveled to him (ninya vachasmi).

    Because we know at least one old example, where "kavi", at least, beheld Dawn from Darkness, it perhaps could be considered synonymous to Atharvan and Jivanmukta:

    Quote In classical Sanskrit, the word “kavi” generally translates as poet.

    However, during the Vedik period, kavi held a more mystical significance. In the Vedas, a kavi is referred to as the seer of vibration and light.

    A kavi is one who has perfected his/her inner vision. He/she has the ability to listen to the realm beyond manifestation. In other words, the kavi feels the living experience of being beyond body and mind. For the kavi the teaching is not an idea, nor is it an intellectual concept. The kavi has a body and a mind, but no longer identifies him/herself with the body and mind. He/she moves about throughout the day like an ordinary being, but he/she sees the day and his/her own experiences within it very differently. Through years of sadhana, yogic practice, the kavi cultivates contact with his/her inner wisdom and the devas, the cosmic forces. All of his/her actions are connected with these two.

    What is the illumination of a kavi? The kavi sees (and hears) beyond the senses, krānta-darshi.

    The kavi spends considerable amounts of time immersed in and contemplating the world beyond form and thought. When you spend long periods of time experiencing what you are beyond form and thought, you shift your identity from being solely individual and personality based. You shift to a place of unity within and see vibration and light.

    A kavi, due to his/her intense sadhana, can then translate the world of the vibration and light for others. Kavis, in their inner absorption, become inspired by their union with the divine forces within. The inspiration they receive manifests through them into what’s called a kāvya, literary composition. But literary composition is perhaps a general term and is not sufficient to describe its import. During the time of the RV, kāvya meant the seer-vision or the wisdom that was revealed by supra-yogic-vision.

    I would not press the case too hard about it being mundane poetry, since already at the beginning of Book Six, it was an epithet of Varuna and of Emperor Divodasa:

    kavíṃ samrā́jam átithiṃ

    Here, we do not see a human such as Sudas becoming Samraja, however, Vasistha furthers "emperor" as divine power:


    Varuna, Mitra, Aryaman


    "Asura" is used similarly three or four times in Book Seven, so it seems if you understood Vasistha you would understand this.

    Moreover, there is another expression that describes "multiple enemy races". Comparatively, we find Kavi as the antithesis of Mura which is perhaps the "theological argument" being made in VII.9:

    ámūraḥ kavír áditir vivásvān susaṃsán mitró átithiḥ šivó naḥ
    citrábhānur uṣásām bhāty ágre 'pā́ṃ gárbhaḥ prasva | ā́ viveša

    Wise, ne.' er deceived, uncircumscribed, refulgent, our gracious guest, a Friend with good attendants,
    Shines forth with wondrous light before the Mornings; the young plants hath he entered, Child of Waters.

    There, he gives the generic meaning of divinites Aditi "unbounded" i. e. infinite, and "refulgent" where some would see the father of Manu. On the other hand, the Veda does not ever expand "sivo" --> Shiva, it is regularly "auspicious or beneficial" applied to any deity.

    Involving Grhapati in VII.15:

    yáḥ páñca carṣaṇī́r abhí niṣasā́da dáme dame
    kavír gṛhápatir yúvā

    Who for the Fivefold People's take hath seated him in every home
    Wise, Youthful, Master of the house.

    Comparatively, we have to go as far as Agastya's wife Lopamudra to ensure that such a thing becomes more like "Damapati", i. e. is not just an external male deity giving orders, but, is really the living wisdom of the couple in the household.

    It may be that this became a type of "institution", such that "orders" so to speak were given by a higher class to suppress a lower, it is entirely possible that over centuries it was tampered with. In the Veda, there perhaps is a "system of rites" which is a teaching vehicle for the symbolic truth encompassed by those rites, the symbolism of which is the vastly real state of a Kavi.

    More powerfully in VII.59:

    ihéha vaḥ svatavasaḥ kávayaḥ sū́ryatvacaḥ
    yajñám maruta ā́ vṛṇe

    Here, Self-strong Maruts, yea, even here. ye Sages with your sunbright skins
    I dedicate your sacrifice.

    Thanks to translation, English loses the meaning, if we want to say Sages are Rishis. In Rg Veda, it has, at least, the synonyms Hotra, which might not tell us much, and Vipra, which welds it to the legend of Navagva and Seven Sages. Here, it is talking about the Kavis, which the dictionary might tell us is anyone who writes a verse, but the Rg Veda just said they are made of Surya.

    And again as "wise" in one of the most pre-eminent Varuna hymns, VII.87:

    VARUNA cut a pathway out for Surya, and led the watery floods of rivers onward.
    The Mares, as in a race, speed on in order. He made great channels for the days to follow.

    The wind, thy breath, hath sounded through the region like a wild beast that seeks his food in pastures.
    Within these two, exalted Earth and Heaven, O Varuna, are all the forms thou lovest.

    Varuna's spies, sent forth upon their errand, survey the two world-halves well formed and fashioned.
    Wise are they, holy, skilled in sacrifices, the furtherers of the praise-songs of the prudent.

    To me who understand hath Varuna spoken, the names borne by the Cow are three times seven.
    The sapient God, knowing the place's secret, shall speak as' twere to teach the race that cometh.

    On him three heavens rest and are supported, and the three earths are there in sixfold order.
    The wise King Varuna hath made in heaven that Golden Swing to cover it with glory.

    Like Varuna from heaven he sinks in Sindhu, like a white-shining spark, a strong wild creature.
    Ruling in depths and meting out the region, great saving power hath he, this world's Controller.

    Before this Varuna may we be sinless him who shows mercy even to the sinner-
    While we are keeping Aditi's ordinances. Preserve us evermore, ye Gods, with blessings.

    VII.63 calls Surya the Divine Eye:

    cákṣur mitrásya váruṇasya

    which is a near repetition of VI.51.

    Also as from Book Six:

    paramé víoman

    So the point is, even if Vasistha came from Mandhata's realm and was arguably different from the Bharatas, he seems to cooperate and agree with their methods seamlessly. It is indistinguishable.

    I think it may be a little tuned-up and more intense.

    The Veda has his son who will more or less be the basis for contradictions in altered sources, Shakti Vasistha:

    The fight between Sage Vasistha and Kausika, later known as Vishwamitra is well known and was described in the Bala Kanda of Ramayana and in Mahabharata. Shakti was the eldest son of Sage Vasistha. Adrisyanti was the wife of Shakti.

    The son born to Adrisyanti was named Parasara. He learned the scriptures under the guidance of his grandfather. Parasara is the father of Veda-Vyasa, who composed the Mahabharata.

    Yes, they are using the names of the actual Rishis, but we do not agree the Mahabharata events happened shortly after Book Seven. We think more likely there was a Dwarka I with Rishis and no Krishna.

    Vasistha's manner of reproducing himself is also other-worldly:

    Shakti was the eldest of the hundred sons of sage Vasishta and Arundhati.

    Chances are, we want to ignore almost all re-tellings of Vasistha except what has been more carefully sifted:

    Vasistha was the Rajguru of Ayodhya; famous as Rama's Guru. The Mind blowing conversation between Vasista and Rama were compiled as Yogavasista by Valmiki show his brilliance.

    30 Suktas by Vasistha is found in A.V.

    Once sage Vasistha cursed Nimi to depart from his body, Nimi responded with same curse upon Vasistha also.

    There is the view of the Veda as rudimentary yoga and dhyana as developed in Yoga Vasistha:

    We have it explicitly mentioned in the Gayatri hymn of the Rig Veda, which is daily recited by every Brahman, and wherein its author Viswamitra "meditated on the glory of the Lord for the illumination of his understanding" ~~. But this bespeaks a development of intellectual meditation "jnana yoga" only, and not spiritual as there is no prayer for ( ~~) liberation.

    Ok. We are saying this is the same intent as with Sunashepa, and perhaps the symbolism called Human Sacrifice.

    What we find at first glance is what continues to be developed by furthering this train of inquiry wherein Vasistha might be called the Most Vipra:

    Quote Vasishta is the only seer to whom some kind of divinity is attributed in the Rig Veda...

    A critical study of the Varuna suktas in the seventh mandala shows that Vasishta must be regarded as the pioneer of the bhakti cult. These hymns are some of the loftiest and the most inspired in the whole of the Rig Veda. The poet approaches Varuna in all surrendering humility and pleads for forgiveness of his sins. The hymns in general are full of pathos and are more devout in tone than any others. They are surcharged with a deep sense of complete self-surrender and a passionate longing for close personal communion with god- the two important characters of true bhakti.

    The Vasishta family was connected with the kings of Ayodhya from the earliest times and the Vasishtas were their hereditary priests. But some kings of Ayodhya like Satyavrata and Trishanku due to their feud with the Vasishtas appointed Vishwamitras as their royal priests.

    A critical study of the Rig Veda shows that in the beginning, the Vedic religion centred around the worship of Asura Varuna and Vasishta was originally a great champion of the Varuna cult and regarded Varuna as the supreme god and Indra as his subordinate. Indra was originally a human hero who led the Vedic tribes in their victorious march towards Sapta Sindhu. In course of time history was transformed into mythology and the human hero Indra became the national war god and Indra cult became popular. This led to the suppression of all religious cults including the Varuna cult by the followers of Indra cult. Some Vedic tribes continued to adhere to the old Varuna cult in spite of the growing popularity of the Indra cult. Instead of either giving up the Varuna religion altogether or dogmatically sticking to it in the face of the prevailing Indra cult, they very wisely tried to bring about an honorable compromise between the two cults. They argued that after victory is won by the war god Indra, Varuna is needed to establish law and order. ‘Indra conquers and Varuna rules’ seems to be their slogan. Such attempts at a religious compromise seem to have been made more particularly by the Vasishtas.

    Apart from the seventh mandala of Rig Veda which contain 102 hymns of the Vasishtas, the first and tenth mandala of the Rig Veda also contains nine and twenty-six hymns respectively of this family and one each in the fifth and ninth mandala. Vasishta was an expert in Atharvanic practices and was therefore regarded as being specially qualified to officiate as purohita. In the ritual of the Brahmanas, the office of Brahmana was usually assigned to a Vasishta. A critical study of the role of Vasishta as represented in the Rig Veda and Atharva Veda would establish the remarkably prominent position which that seer and his family occupied in respect of both the religion of the classes and the religion of the masses.

    That sounds close to the right story.

    It is possible he is the Oldest Attested Divinization.

    From Vasistha River:

    Quote These hymns are particularly significant for four Indravarunau hymns. These have an embedded message of transcending "all thoughts of bigotry", suggesting a realistic approach of mutual "coordination and harmony" between two rival religious ideas by abandoning disputed ideas from each and finding the complementary spiritual core in both. These hymns declare two gods, Indra and Varuna, as equally great. In another hymn, particularly the Rig Vedic verse 8.83.9, Vasishta teaches that the Vedic gods Indra and Veruna are complementary and equally important because one vanquishes the evil by the defeat of enemies in battles, while other sustains the good during peace through social-ethical laws. The seventh mandala of the Rigveda by Vasishta is a metaphorical treatise.

    Vasishta hymns in the Rig - Veda are among the most intriguing in many ways and influential. Vasishta emphasizes means to be as important as end during one's life, encouraging truthfulness, devotion, optimism, family life, sharing one's prosperity with other members of society, among other cultural values.

    It is not so much that Varuna was a western or Bhrgu deity, especially since it is indicated that Jamadagni was eastern. The thesis is correct because of Asura Varuna, the leading or chief Aditya. The Rg Veda gives seven or eight Adityas grouped with Martanda, which is talking about mental and subtle creation and the Mundane Egg. We do not think it actually has Twelve Adityas as the Year in the terrestrial sense. It is broken and reborn as Form to make Twelve.

    But yes, of course, that is why it "looks" to be about Indra so much at first, and this is incomplete.

    From a few appearances of Vasistha in AV Samhita:

    I.29 Amulet for Success of a Chieftain

    obviously an accretion, III.20:

    It includes (vss. 2-7) a whole RV. hymn (x. 141), with a single
    RV. verse (iii. 29. 10) prefixed, and only the last two verses occur nowhere else.

    IV.22, hymn for Indra and King

    Here is a type of Rg Vedic concordance in IV.29:

    3. Ye who favor Angiras, who Agasti, Jamadagni, Atri, O Mitra-and-Varuna, who favor Kasyapa, who Vasishtha — do ye free us from distress.

    4. Ye who favor Syavasva, Vadhryasva, Purumidha, Atri, O Mitra-and-Varuna, who favor Vimada, Saptavadhri — do ye free us from distress.

    5. Ye who favor Bharadvaja, who Gavishthira, Visvamitra, Kutsa, O
    Varuna [and] Mitra; who favor Kakshivant, also Kanva — do ye free us from distress.

    6. Ye who favor Medhatithi, who Trisoka, who Usanas Kavya, O
    Mitra-and-Varuna ; who favor Gotama, also Mudgala — do ye free us from distress.

    Interestingly in the Sanskrit Samhita on GRETIL, Vasistha's IV.29 is followed by the opening line of Devi Suktam:

    (AVŚ_4,30.1a) aháṃ rudrébhir vásubhiś carāmy ahám ādityáir utá viśvádevaiḥ |
    (AVŚ_4,30.1c) aháṃ mitrā́várunobhā́ bibharmy ahám indrāgnī́ ahám aśvínobhā́ ||1||

    Vasistha is in other subjects, including Medicine:

    AVŚ_6,21.2a) śréṣṭham asi bheṣajā́nāṃ vásiṣṭhaṃ vī́rudhānām |
    (AVŚ_6,21.2c) sómo bhága iva yā́meṣu devéṣu váruṇo yáthā ||2||


    (AVŚ_6,119.1c) vaiśvānaró no adhipā́ vásiṣṭha úd ín nayāti sukr̥tásya lokám ||1||

    Vital Airs or Prana Apana:

    (AVŚ_7,53.2a) sáṃ krāmataṃ mā́ jahītaṃ śárīraṃ prāṇāpānáu te sayújāv ihá stām |
    (AVŚ_7,53.2c) śatáṃ jīva śarádo várdhamāno 'gníṣ ṭe gopā́ adhipā́ vásiṣṭhaḥ ||2||

    (AVŚ_7,53.3a) ā́yur yát te átihitaṃ parācáir apānáḥ prāṇáḥ púnar ā́ tā́v itām |

    Soma and Pitrs:

    (AVŚ_18,3.46a) yé naḥ pitúḥ pitáro yé pitāmahā́ anūjahiré somapītháṃ vásiṣṭhāḥ |

    A sharper view of the discrepancies comes through in Bloomfield's Atharva Veda Contrast about why "Atharvas" are considered lower or non by Srauta Ritualists:

    AV. 9
    Vasiṣṭha was a celebrated Brahman and Purohita, and these qualifications were
    said for a time (probably by the descendants of Vasiṣṭha themselves) to be
    hereditary in this family. But the Brāhmaṇas say explicitly that this is an obsolete custom...

    ...in the stomabhāga-legend, TS. 3. 5. 2. I ,
    the G[opatha] B[rahmana]. 2.-3. I 3 omits, tasmād vāsistho brahmā kāryah, because its ideal of
    a Brahman-priest is a Bhṛgvaṅgirovid. Other adaptations of this sort, at times
    quite clever, more often superficial and bungling, will appear in the analysis
    of the text that is to follow...

    ...which is, of course, contrary to the doctrine of the Atharvan ritualists.

    In Gayatri Upanishad:

    The son of the
    great Rishi Vasiṣṭha recited the hemistich A V 11. 5. 2 5
    a b (11. 5. 24c d in the vulgata) into the mouth of a shell, in order that a cold and a hot
    spring should issue therefrom. Then in the middle of the river Vipāś
    there arose the first hermitage Vasiṣṭhaśilā by name. This was followed
    by others: the names of the hermitages are for the most part original.

    Even the AV Translation is just the Samhita or Hymns, there is no Anukramani except in Hindi, so it is hard to derive composer information such as for RV. As we see, among other things, there was a challenge to promote these RV Priests as the "highest office" and to marginalize Atharvans as sorcerors. That, so to speak, is an internal Indic conflict, which is not particularly apparent in the Old Books.

    Pargiter found this enmeshed with Aurva Bhargava and Sagara versus five tribes such as Haihaiyas and Yadavas.

    Similar to the title of Usanas Sukra, Mallinatha explains Atharvan as a title of Vasistha, who may therefor be called at Sagara's time, Atharvanidhi Apava.


    The Atharvans are descended from Vasiśṭha Rṣi. Vasiśṭha's dedication to Atharvan is demonstrated in the Rig Veda wherein after being filled with anger, he calms himself by reading the Atharva Mantra. Vedic scholar Mallinatha writes in his commentary of the Kiratarjunya that the Śāstras declare that the mantras of Atharva Rṣi are preserved by Vaśiśṭha.

    Ikshvaku fortunes are being restored from a low point:

    Quote Sagara was educated by sage Aurva and when he reached adulthood, with the material assistance provided by Aurva defeated the Talajanghas and regained Ayodhya. He then extended the campaign and subdued all north India, marched south and crushed the Haihayas in their own territories and their capital Mahishmati was reduced to ashes. The foreign tribes who had allied with the Haihayas and helped them drove away Bahu from Ayodhya had settled down in Ayodhya and were called kshtriyas. They respected Brahmins, observed Brahmanical rites and rituals and had a member of the Vasishta family acting as their priest. After defeating the Haihayas, Sagara completely crushed the Shakas, Yavanas and other foreign tribes and was about to annihilate them. But on the intercession of sage Vasishta he spared their lives after imposing certain signs of symbolical defeat and disgrace and rendering them unfit for Vedic ceremonials.

    Sagara had subjugated all contemporary powers and was the emperor of the whole of north India. The Vedic culture and sacrificial cult were introduced all over his domain. Sagara was very pious and popular and celebrated the Ashvamedha sacrifice. He had two queens, Sumati, daughter of Arishtanemi Kasyapa and Kesini. The latter was the daughter of Vidarbha, the Yadava king who sought peace with Sagara by offering his daughter to him and retired towards deccan into the country named after him.

    Not to understate Aurva:

    He thus asked the Pitrs as to what should be done with the fire of his wrath as unless he did something with them, it would consume him. The Pitrs then advised him to shed the fire of his wrath in the ocean. He did so and this fire came to be known as Badavamukha – the shape of a horse which emits fire from its mouth in the middle of the ocean.

    Sagara is considered a large number of generations after Mandhata, although the next or second Samrat or Cakravartin or Universal Emperor.

    He is not known to the Rg Veda.

    Trisanku and Visvamitra are said to be between those two.

    Obviously, they would have to be almost simultaneous, and then you would have to have a Sagara at the time of Sudas who has the same story as Sudas, but is not mentioned by Vasistha, despite the proclivity for eastern alliances.

    Samudra is used over a hundred times, is mainly governed by Varuna, and:

    There are other Sanskrit terms in the Rigveda that appear to mean "Ocean" or have similar meanings. Among them are the terms Salila, Arnas, Apas, Purisha. The waves are called Urmi in the Rigveda, and the lakes are called Saras, Kula, Hrada or Hlada.

    In Vedic Sanskrit, "sagara" is a newer expression that is not really found. It does not seem to be in the early lore. Instead here is VII.35:

    šáṃ no áhir budhníyaḥ šáṃ samudráḥ


    Agastya is associated with King Alarka, contemporary of Vaidarbha whose daughter was Lopamudra. King Alarka is just few generation below Ikshvaku King Sagara.

    So, yes, you can have more than one Agastya if need be, as long as we can figure out the different lifetimes or individuals.

    Alarka is claimed to be a grandson of Divodasa and:

    A Rājaṛṣi of Kāśī; attained longevity through the grace of Lopāmudrā. Killed the Rākṣasa Kṣemaka and recovered his capital. Two ancient verses in his praise.

    That is approximately the right time frame. We do not see that much Agastya in the Rg Veda, however, he is reinforced by Lopamudra. Conversely, while there is no shortage of Vasistha, there is no appearance of Arundhati:

    Quote Arundhati is absent, she is absent in Rig veda also, while Vasishtha is present. In testing them answer was sought for why and when, then, Arundhati got a place and mention with Saptaṛṣi and got involved in answering ‘the unknown from that which is known’ after her “Darshana“. When did the use of such condition became more precise and prevalent while observing the sky. Answer to this pertinent question is, after Arundhati darshana observers were constantly missing pole star, this made more inquisitive and detailed observation of Arundhati herself. I found that she is mentioned “ṛṣiṇām arundhati” in Taittiriya Aranyakā-3.9.2. That suddenly makes sense since Nirukta says ṛśi raśmayaḥ, the one who pulls. At one point of time during no pole star condition the observation via Nyāya succumbed till Arundhati and interestingly, it was Arundhati who was pulling all the Riśis.

    According to the second Rishi Lineage post:

    Lopāmudrā has RV 1.179.1–2 (i.e. first two mantras). Arundhati doesn’t have any mantras.

    Arundhati and the Rishis as Stars is not present in Rg Veda.

    Yes, this may concern it being observed that pole stars slip around, but that does not equate to thousands of years of such cycles being encoded.

    Agastya's scenario is almost plausible if Alarka (Kasi) and Sagara (Ayodhya) are very nearly simultaneous, and, they have almost the same story as Sudas, and, according to me, those place names are symbolic, in the sense that so far, archaeology does not discover anything big until maybe around 1,200-1,000 B. C. E..

    It appears more the case that:

    Regardless of the particular ancestry of a rishi, all rishis considered Aṅgirā (अङ्गिरा), Bhṛgu (भृगु), Atharvā (अथर्वा) and Trita Āptya (त्रित आप्त्य) as their common primordial ancestors. Evidence of this comes from the mantras themselves. Only these four rishis are included in the mantras along with the gods. In fact, these four rishis are considered almost gods. However, Aṅgirā (अङ्गिरा) is by far the most important and most revered personality. In many mantras, the reference is to a plural number, i.e. not one Aṅgirā (अङ्गिरा) but several Aṅgirases (अङ्गिरसः). They are most commonly called Navagvas (नवग्वाः) and Daśagvas (दशग्वाः).

    This is probably reasonable for Sudas:

    Quote Archeologists found the cemetery H culture at Harappa. This new culture appeared at about 2000 BC and lay on top of a seemingly older culture. Harappa lay on the banks of the Ravi river. This is also the same Ravi river on whose banks the great king Sudas fought the famous Dasarajna war and defeated a confederation of more than 10 opponent kings. These opponents comprised of the Pakhtoons, Bhalanas, and other Iranian and Afghan tribes. He took over the cities they ruled. Thus the cemetery H culture found at Harappa must be the new culture that Sudas brought in those regions. Since this culture was dated to 2000 BC timeframe, we must therefore date the Dasarajna war too at the 2000 BC timeframe. Therefore, here we have the dates for the older Mandalas of the Rig Ved.

    That is written along with a Druhyu and Bactrian "outflow", rather than incursions into India.

    We have found the more succinct way to put it is that, during "decline", the IVC in Haryana actually *grew* around 2,000 B. C. E. and forward, which is the same area we are saying the Bharatas secured and a lot of the Rg Veda was recorded in.

    Difficultly, in the Seals, it appears to show the Eagle basically taking over, and the older ones fall out of use. It suggests a Bactrian dominance in Indian territory. A study on that series of late seals might match what we are able to find in the written word.

    The second trouble for Arundhati is that:

    Puranas give Kapinjali Ghrtaci as the wife of Vasistha, mother of Indrapramati.

    because this includes another Rishi.

    In Book Seven, I am not sure this is an individual or son:

    vasiṣṭhaḥ śaktirvā

    It has the same construction as "ratrirva bharadvaji", which does not seem to be a name, but, "night explained as related to bharadvajas". This composer (?) has only a single line, and does not match the individual as recorded in IX.97 and 108:



    while this has to do with a more immediately prominent member:

    Kapiñjalī (कपिञ्जली).—(Ghṛtācī)—wife of Vasisṭha, and mother of Indrapramati (Indrapratima, Vāyu-purāṇa)*

    * Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa III. 8. 97; Vāyu-purāṇa 70. 88.

    Quoting Matsya Purana:

    The second section of the genealogy (lines 12-16) says that
    ' Vasistha ' had by his wife Kapinjali Ghrtaci a famous son Indra-
    pramati,^ well known as Kunin or Kuniti.* He married Prthu^s
    daughter and had a son Vasu,' and Vasu had a son Upamauyu,*
    the progenitor of the Upamanyus or Aupamanj'avas. Indrapramati
    was a well-known rishi,' and there were more than one rishi named
    Upamanyu, as will appear. These two and Sakti and six other
    Vasisthas, as mentioned above, each composed three verses of
    Rigveda ix, 97, all independently, so that Upamanyu's contribution
    must have been some time after Indrapramati's, if the order of the
    rishis is chronological; and Indrapramati later than Maitravaruni
    Vasistha, if the opening verses were composed by the latter.

    The third section of the genealogy (lines 17-18) says that from
    Mitra and Varuna sprang the Vasisthas who were called Kundins,
    Kundineyas or Kaundinyas.' This deals with the Vasistha who
    was called Maitra varuna or Maitravaruni.

    Brahmanda Purana attempts to detail eleven classes of Vasisthas, separating Arundhati and Ghrtaci, which does not clearly imply that Mitravaruna is different from the father of Shakti or Indrapramati. Just an additional listing.

    "Kundins" suggests Kuniti = Indrapramati.

    As for Ghrtaci's epithet:

    Kapiñjala (कपिञ्जल) is the name of a bird mentioned in the Ṛgveda .—The Sūkta 190 of the first Maṇḍala of the Ṛgveda popularly known as Viṣaghnopaniṣad, has been uttered by Agastya. [...] Agastya also records that a small bird (identified as Kapiñjala; Francoline Partridge) has swallowed the poison; as a result neither she nor the victim would die of poison: thus, the poison becoming nectar. Scholars opine that the following hymn is a mystical antidote for poison. It also mentions the Kapiñjala bird which decimates viṣa (Ṛgevada I.191.11).


    Visvarūpa had three heads, called respectively, the Soma-drinker the Wine-drinker, and the Food-eater. On one occasion he declared in public that the sacrifices should be shared by the gods only; but in private he said the asuras (demons) should share them too.

    And as it is customary to keep promises that are privately made, Indra was afraid that the asuras,
    obtaining a share of the sacrifices, would be so strengthened as to be able to overthrow his kingdom; he
    therefore cut off the heads of Visvarūpa with his thunderbolt. The three heads were turned into birds:
    the Soma-drinker became a Kapinjala (a Francoline partridge), for Soma was of a brown colour the
    Wine-drinker became a Kalavinka (sparrow), because when men are intoxicated they make a noise like
    a sparrow; the Food-eater became a Tittiri (partridge), which consequently has a great variety of colour,
    for its body appears to be sprinkled with glut-and honey.

    Vasistha I is considered the source of a river called Saryu, Ikshvaki, and Vasisthi.

    Vasistha refers to the odd Horse Sage in VII.41:

    To this our worship may all Dawns incline them, and come to the pure place like Dadhikravan.

    VII.44 is probably the first thing *to* him and invokes him in each verse, although this is listed as:

    Devatā (deity/subject-matter): liṅgoktāḥ

    in its strand of deities we find:

    ...with the Aṅgirasas.

    In VII.35, which has four kinds of Indra, Tvastr is with the Gnas:

    Gnā (ग्ना).—Ved.

    1) A divine woman; a kind of goddess; ग्नावो नेष्ठः पिब ऋतुना (gnāvo neṣṭhaḥ piba ṛtunā) Ṛgveda 1.15.3.

    Gnā (ग्ना).—[feminine] a superhuman female, a kind of goddess or female genius

    1) Gnā (ग्ना):—f. (nom sg.? gnās, [Ṛg-veda iv, 9, 4]) ‘wife’ (=γυνή, √jan), a divine female, kind of goddess

    They are known from Book Six, such as with Sarasvati Virapatni and sarana or "refuge".

    In VII.34, Tvastr works with:

    rodasī varuṇānī


    varūtrī female defender, guardian goddess

    (applied to a [particular] class of divine beings)

    corresponding examples:

    varūtrī yad rātiṣācaś

    may the protectress, (Sarasvatī) and the liberal (wives of the gods)

    rātiṃ divo rātiṣācaḥ pṛthivyā́ḥ

    áhir budhníya utá naḥ šṛṇotu
    várūtri' ékadhenubhir ní pātu

    the protectress: varutra = vāgdevatā

    Varutri has only come previously in one particular place, III.62, i. e. the co-Jamadagni hymn and sarana:

    ...may the delightful (wives of the gods) shelter us with dwellings; may Hotā and Bhāratī (enrich) us with gifts.

    and in that Book we think the authoring is damaged. It most likely should be a Visvamitra line. Maybe his fault was not so much "Kusika" but support of other kings unfavorable to the Solar Dynasty. Or, perhaps Kusika was the "cult of Indra" that unbalanced things in a particular way. Vasistha throws him right into four conjunctions, where Vishnu is mentioned around the middle of it all:

    šáṃ na indrāgnī́ bhavatām ávobhiḥ šáṃ na índrāváruṇā rātáhavyā
    šám índrāsómā suvitā́ya šáṃ yóḥ šáṃ na índrāpūṣáṇā vā́jasātau


    šáṃ no víṣṇuḥ šám u pūṣā́ no astu šáṃ no bhavítraṃ šám v astu vāyúḥ

    May Visnu give felicity, and Pusan, the Air that cherisheth our life, and Vayu.

    It is probably quite meaningful the way those are associated there.


    šáṃ no ajá ékapād devó astu šáṃ nó 'hir budhnya |ḥ šáṃ samudráḥ
    šáṃ no apā́ṃ nápāt perúr astu šáṃ naḥ pṛ́šnir bhavatu devágopā

    May Aja-Ekapad, the God, be gracious, gracious the Dragon of the Deep, and Ocean.
    Gracious be he the swelling Child of Waters, gracious be Prsni who hath Gods to guard her.

    ādityā́ rudrā́ vásavo juṣantedám bráhma kriyámāṇaṃ návīyaḥ

    So may the Rudras, Vasus, and Adityas accept the new hymn which we now are making.

    There are a couple more references to Apam Napat:

    tám ūrmím āpo mádhumattamaṃ vo 'pā́ṃ nápād avatv āšuhémā

    May the Floods' Offspring, he whose course is rapid, protect that wave most rich in sweets, O Waters,

    our friend, the grandson of the waters

    It is not until near the end that we find the particular combination as in VII.99:

    índrāviṣṇū dṛṃhitā́ḥ šámbarasya náva púro navatíṃ ca šnathiṣṭam
    šatáṃ varcínaḥ sahásraṃ ca sākáṃ hathó apraty ásurasya vīrā́n

    Ye have destroyed, thou, Indra, and thou Visnu, Sambara's nine-and-ninety fenced castles.
    Ye Twain smote down a hundred times a thousand resistless heroes of the royal Varcin.

    which is followed by Vamana or Trivikrama in VII.100:

    Three times strode forth this God in all his grandeur over this earth bright with a hundred splendours.
    Foremost be Visnu, stronger than the strongest: for glorious is his name who lives for ever.

    Over this earth with mighty step strode Visnu, ready to give it for a home to Manu.
    In him the humble people trust for safety: he, nobly born, hath made them spacious dwellings.

    To-day I laud this name, O sipivista, I, skilled in rules, the name of thee the Noble.
    Yea, I the poor and weak praise thee the Mighty who dwellest in the realm beyond this region.

    What was there to be blamed in thee, O Visnu, when thou declaredst, I am Sipivista?
    Hide not this form from us, nor keep it secret, since thou didst wear another shape in battle.

    O Visnu, unto thee my lips cry Vasat!

    An enemy given is:


    but the Vishnu epithet is:

    Śipiviṣṭa (शिपिविष्ट) refers to one who is “pervaded by rays”

    only found here.

    The following hymn is quite intense about three worlds/three lights and trinitarian aspects, and 103 adds Manduka or Frogs (which are its deity). This is notable because it is the beginning of the use of Samvatsara for the Year.

    There are two kinds of frogs:

    pṛśniḥ sampṛṅkte haritena

    the bellowing of a cow, another the bleating of a goat

    and they celebrate Atiratra of the Bharadvajas and Angirases.

    gavām ayanam, sacrificial session, which commences and ends with the atirātra and lasts a whole year

    Vasistha knows the seasons divided into twelve months:

    dvādaśasya ṛtuṃ

    “May the cow-toned, the goat-toned, the speckled, the green (frog, severally) grant us riches! May the frogs in the fertilizing (season of the rain), bestowing upon us hundreds of cows, prolong (our) lives!”

    This is the first "Twelve" in the Rg Veda. It does not say "Adityas", but this is a forced conclusion from "twelve times of the sun", put together with the smaller group of Martanda being immaterial.

    In hymn 7.99 of the Rigveda, Indra-Vishnu produces the sun, his discus a vestige of his solar creation, equivalent to the sun. The Vishnu Purana identifies the discus Sudarshana Chakra with the following: 'thoughts, like the chakra, flow faster than even the mightiest wind.'

    One of the few references to the role of Adityas is given in X.72:

    Sāyaṇa cites Taittirīya Saṃhitā, which omits Tvastr, Pusan, Vishnu, and even Martanda; the Vedic hymn says Martanda is a special case, the previous Adityas for "former generations", but Martanda for mortal people. This is in the process of bringing the sun (Surya) out of the ocean (samudra)--"uncreated water" is understood here. It is "generations of gods":

    “Brahmaṇaspati filled these (generations of the gods) with breath as a blacksmith (his bellows); in the first age of the gods the existent was born of the non-existent.”

    Brahmaṇaspati: the lord of food; the same as Aditi

    “In the first age of the gods the existent was born of the non- existent; after that the quarters (of the horizon) were born, and after them the upward-growing (trees).”

    “The earth was born from the upward-growing (tree), the quarters were born from the earth; Dakṣa was born from Aditi, and afterwards Aditi from Dakṣa.”

    So there are a few "creations" *before* the Adityas are born, and the Veda does not name them here, only Martanda.

    Book Two names three Adityas, not eight. Same kind of line as from Bharadvaja. This group may be indistinct, but has a better start than "the Rudras" and most others, since we have just been told everything up to Martanda is ideal and subjective, and the twelve-fold year of man can only be after this. Vasistha seems to be cutting edge along with the first known:

    The ancient Sumerian calendar, roughly dated to 2,100 BC, divided a year into 12 lunar months of 29 or 30 days. Each month began with the sighting of a new moon ... Sumerian months had no uniform name throughout Sumer because of the religious diversity.

    Basically the same, twelve months without fixed names. Same as "the Adityas". Probably around the same time as Vasistha. Probably also marking the need for a new equinox and pole star.

    Book Seven does say:

    For these, even Aryaman, Varuna and Mitra, are the chastisers of all guile and falsehood.
    These, Aditi's Sons,...

    Bhaga, the Son of Aditi...

    Implicitly, any "sun god" could be counted. It may be the same thing, but, we are interested in a heightened sensitivity to its different times, aspects, moods, this in fact being the real point of "Vedic Astrology", the Sun itself as more important than external stars used as a template.

    "Ratri" has not been born yet, since Dawn and Night are still:


    Is this "just" Rain?

    “He who is the cause of impregnation of plants, of cows, of mares, of women.”

    It appears what we have with Vasistha is *both* Asura Varuna as chief of the Adityas, and Vishnu as perhaps the youngest, not necessarily called a "dwarf" here, but filling the Three World in Three Steps.

    Book Six is similar having "indravisnu" towards the end. Visvamitra does not have it.

    An example of what may be "symbolic Bharata" is from VII.8:

    Far famed is this the Bharata's own Agni he shineth like the Sun with lofty splendour.
    He who hath vanquished Puru in the battle, the heavenly guest hath glowed in full refulgence.

    being part of this trend:

    a. In many verses, even Gods are referred to as Bharatas: Agni in
    1.96.3; 11.7.1, 5; IV.25.4, and VI.16.9; and the Maruts in 11.36.2.

    b. In other verses, Agni is described as belonging to the
    Bharatas: 111.23.2; V.11.1; Vl.16.45: VII.8.4.

    There is not a single reference even faintly hostile to the Bharatas
    in the whole of the Rigveda.

    The Frog is easily symbolic of the Year due to it burrowing during the heat and coming out for the Monsoon. Mandukya is an Upaniṣad of the Atharva Veda. Varuṇa, the Lord of the Seas, assuming the form of a frog praised Hari with the hymns of this poem.

    This (Māṇḍukya) Upaniṣad contains twelve verses.

    Begins by quoting RV I.89.8 and 6.

    As says the Padma Purāṇa:—

    “Varuṇa in the form of a frog praised the changeless Hari by the verses of the Upaniṣad beginning with Om: while meditating upon the God Nārāyaṇa with mind concentrated on Om.”

    Varuna guided/formed the whole solar track. Then he apparently is satisfied with this result.

    The Veda however is saying Manduka is the Twelve Month Year, perhaps clearly for the first time.

    The divinized Vasistha has already divinized multiple Frogs.

    In terms of astronomy, then, yes it becomes interesting what the monsoon becomes timed to. In that sense, Rain is right after Summer:

    Varsha is the Hindu season corresponding to “monsoon” / “rainy season”. The rains or the rainy season is marked by two months called Nabhas and Nabhasya (Shravana and Bhadra).

    Varṣa (वर्ष) refers to the “rainy” season and represents the months Āṣāḍha to Bhādrapadā (mid July to mid September)

    This may not be like the floods of the Nile, there isn't much fuss about prediction of exactly what day it starts. Usually, India heats up and dries out until some time in July. The almanac-type deliberations have not really focused on the day, but on the annual Variability:

    Quote Year to year variation of Indian monsoon rainfall is described qualitatively in some ancient Sanskrit texts. Interestingly, these are cyclic with periods of 3, 5, 7, 18 and 60 years. Time series analysis of actual sea-sonal rainfall data shows that at very near the above periods the spectrum has significant peaks.

    Five-year cycle

    In the Vedic period the country followed luni-solar calendar. While the original form and evolution of this is not known in all its details, what has come down to us from the Vedānga Jyotiṣa is a calendar comprising five years as a unit, called the Yuga. It appears that this calendar was used till about 4–5 century CE, when the yearly calendar of the siddhāntic astronomy became popular. Varāha-mihira, in his Brhat-samhitā, presents the older five-year division for rainfall prognosis.

    The five years of the Vedic calendar with their names, regent deities and rainfall character are said to be: Samvatsara–Fire; Parivatsara–Sun; Idāvatsara–Moon; Anuvatsara–Prajāpati and Idvatsara–Rudra. Rainfall would be evenly distributed in the first year. The second year gets good rainfall in the beginning of the season only. Rainfall will be excessive in the third year. In the fourth year of the cycle rainfall will be delayed. Rainfall will be deficient in the fifth year. This type of variability attribution should have been in vogue since ancient times, the roots of which are lost. This also gives raise to a question about how to decide the position of a year in the cycle. The ancient Vedānga Jyotiṣa definition is quite unambiguous that the Samvatsara started with the winter solstice at the star Dhaniṣṭhā (~Beta-Delphini). This would have been the case around 1400 BCE.

    The Vedic Yuga is no attempt to account for millions of years since creation, it is a rough estimate that one in five years will not get adequately wet.

    The other time periods are later attempts to figure out why it is not exactly or always one in five.

    Now where is this?

    Delphinus, a very small constellation located between Pegasus and Aquila

    Already knowing that Surya Siddhanta contains errors, here is an argument that results in a 650 year correction:

    There is a very specific observation in the Vedāṅga Jyotiśa that makes it straight forward to calculate the date of its composition. It is mentioned in the verses 6–8 of the Yajur-Vedāṅga Jyotiṣa that the winter solstice was at the beginning of the Śraviṣṭhā (Dhaniṣṭhā) nakṣatra and the summer solstice was at the midpoint of the Āśleṣā nakṣatra at the time of its composition. Figure 1 shows the position of the solstices in the background of the nakṣatras as mentioned in the Vedāṅga Jyotiṣa.


    After snipping assumptions and making adjustments:

    From this figure, it can be seen that the date of winter solstice being at the beginning of the Śraviṣṭhā (Dhaniṣṭhā) nakṣatra was ~1832 BCE.


    We have to describe this as "observational", in order to move from a description of a twelve-month year, to get five-year cycles of rainfall. In other words, no such tracked and recorded observations are apparent before Vasistha, and, he gives us reason to suspect they would have been started shortly after him.

    So, we want to hold this over Siddhanta literature, which is much later:

    Vasishtha Siddhanta is one of the earliest astronomical systems in use in India, which is summarized in Varahamihira's Pancha-siddhantika(6th century).

    Vriddha Vasishta Siddhanta

    Siddhantas are, so to speak, schools or branches of Astrology or Vedanga Jyotisa:

    Among them only five siddhantas were extant during the time of Varahamihira namely, Saura (or Surya) Paitamaha (or Brahma), Vaishishta, Romaka and Paulisa.

    Would it seem likely that Vaistha was an anchor point, around which a wider "system of Manali" grew? Quite possibly. The Astrologers bear a strong resemblance. Generally:

    According to Kasyapa, the 18 pravarthakas are Surya, Pitamaha, Vyasa, Vasishta, Atri, Parasara, Kasyapa, Narada, Garga, ,Mareechi, Manu, Angeerasa, Lomasa, Poulisa, Chyavana, Yavana, Bhrigu and Saunaka.

    Vasishta siddhanta has an important place among the Panchasiddhantas. It is more in depth than Pitamaha Siddhanta. Varahamihira quotes 13 slokas from Vasishta Siddhanta. During Brahmagupta’s time there were two Vasishta Siddhantas, one old and another relatively new.


    Quote Vashishtha Siddhanta describes about the motion of sun and moon in the solar system. The motion of Mars, Jupiter, Saturn , and Mercury has been mentioned. These books are capable to tell that what was the motion of planets in previous years, and how did these planets revolved in past ages.

    Vashishtha Siddhanta has been mentioned briefly in Pachsiddhantika. In this Siddhantha other than motion of the planets , planetary signs have also been mentioned. It is similar to Pitamaha Siddhantha , but has more pure principles in many levels. Just like Pitamaha Siddhantha , Vashishtha Siddhanta has also believed that when the sun rises , then it is increased equally each day.

    Other than this, Vashishtha Siddhantha also describes about ascendants.

    But, these are much later compendiums, such as one involving the Zodiac must be from around the year 200.

    Corrections and revisions were probably again made around 900.

    So, no, you wouldn't try to put all those details in Vedic Vasistha's mouth.

    Twelve months, or, Indian Seasons or Rtus of two months each, yes.

    Delphinus in Crete is thought to be within "a few days" of the Solstice around 750 B. C. E..

    To be careful, we must always ask about which part of the sign, or, the individual star, Beta Delphinus:

    In this case, it turns out that India resembles Greece, except it resembles archaic India too because:

    Dhaniṣṭhā (धनिष्ठा).—The constellation on the Siṃśumāra

    four stars of Delphini

    Indian zodiac: |23°20' Makara| – |6°40' Kumbha|

    Dhaniṣṭhā is the Sanskrit equivalent of Chinese Wei, Tibetan Mon-gru and modern Delphini.

    Dhanistha is "famous", Simsumara is Gangetic Dolphin or Garhial.

    It has to do with Indra's reasons for being born in X.73:

    Mother: Dhaniṣṭhā, another name of Aditi; Yajus. 33.64

    Again, we are looking not exactly where the Rg Veda says, but, the branch school, Vedanga Jyotisa, claims to begin. This would begin a Samvatsara cycle, originally observed in five-year epochs, which, upon further observation, is re-configured to five twelve-year cycles.

    In this case, it also directly leads to Apollo's Theophania at Delphi, now Christmas.

    The rising is estimated in When to Consult the Oracle:

    (for 750 BC it rose around the days equivalent to
    December 27-30)

    The famous oracle at Delphi was originally only consulted on one particular day in one particular month of the year. So how did the different cities of Greece know when this was? We have found a correlation between festivals devoted to Apollo Delphinios, the major god of Delphi, and the movement of the constellation Delphinus. With so many stars in the sky this is perhaps not surprising. However, we also believe that we can show that this correlation is meaningful in explaining the timing of the consultation of the Oracle at Delphi.

    This idea is carried significantly farther by the same author who next suggests it may not have been so bitter for Pythia.

    In India, it is already thought possible that Varuna and problems with the Pole Star may have absorbed the phallic garhial or "Sky God" of the IVC Seals.

    The Old Books of the Rg Veda were probably facing the difficulty that observed markers of north poles and equinoxes had proved to run or slip away.

    In Astrology we run into uncertain names of sages or a Sage:

    stars (ṛkṣa)

    constellations (ṛkṣa)

    but on this subject:

    Shravishta (Dhanishtha) is the
    best of Nakshatras

    The best Pancha Varsha or the Period of FiveYears called a ‘Yuga’ is what starts from Dhanishta to

    The alignment of Dhanistha in various ways may refer to Brahma--Earth = Venus transit, five years; or Sani--Saturn being thirty; or as discussed in a recent Collection:

    Barhaspatya Yuga and it is 60 years long.

    and as individual idea about the timing of the Solstice:

    Quote "It is stated that Bhisma died on Maga S 8 on the winter solstice day, i.e. at the start of Uttarayana.
    At present, this tithi occurs between 20 January and 20 February, which differs from the date of
    winter solstice, 22nd December, by 29 to 60 days. This difference is caused by the precession of the
    earth's axis around the ecliptic poles in the retrograde circuit in 25,725 years, as stated earlier. It
    causes a slow backward shift of equinoxes and solstices with respect to the nakshatras and the
    lunar months at the rate of one day in 71 years. As it would take 2060 to 4260 years to produce a
    shift of 29 to 60 days, the date of Bhisma's death would be 1200 ± 1000 BC. This date can be
    pushed back to the Krtttika epoch of 2300 BC, if we put the beginning of Dhanistha exactly opposite
    to Magha (Alpha Leonis)."
    Quote If we take it that the winter solstice occured in Dhanistha Nakshatram in Vedic times and that it
    slipped back to Moola Nakshatram now, I am looking at a date of roughly 4000 years ago or about
    2000 BC. There are many people who believe that the Harappan civilization was about 2000 BCE.

    The crux of Astrology is almost certainly Dhruva and Simsumara:

    Mystery of ‘Jyotishmandala’, ‘Sishumara’, Dhruva, Clouds and Chariots of ‘Grahaas’ :

    Dhruva, the illustrious son of Prajapati Uttanapada

    Aouttanapaada as his upper jaw , Yagna Deva as the
    lower jaw and Dharma Deva as the head; Narayana as his heart; Ashwini Kumars as his forelegs; Varuna
    and Aryama were his inner thighs; Samvatsara is his private part and Mitra his anus; Mahendra, Maricha
    and Dhruva are in his tail.

    and it is reasonably understandable by a basic focus on these names:

    Quote The list of these stars or nakSatra (নক্ষত্র; by which one wishes to attain) is very old, but their numbering has changed. Due to the precession of earth's axis of rotation, the vernal equinox (defining the tropical year of 365.24219 days) shifts back by about one nakSatra every 1000 years. It was in mRgashiras (মৃগশিরঃ) in about 4500 BC, in kRttikA (কৃত্তিকা) in 2500 BC, in ashvini (অশ্বিনী) about 500 BC, and is currently in bhadrapada (ভদ্রপদ) (revatI (রেবতী) was closest to the vernal equinox, within 10', in 572 A.D.), and correspondingly, the counting could begin at any of these positions. In fact, the counts from kRttikA (কৃত্তিকা) dominate the early literature, and those from ashvinI (অশ্বিনী) the later ones. Sometimes, it is also counted with sraviSThA (শ্রবিষ্ঠা) as the first.

    shraviSTHA or dhaniSThA (শ্রবিষ্ঠা, ধনিষ্ঠা)
    These words mean ‘most famous’ or ‘richest’ respectively. It is represented by a drum or tabor and is presided over by the vasus (বসুঃ) (meaning the bright ones). It consists of α, β, γ, δ, and ε-Delphini (called shishumAra or simshUmAra (শিশুমার, শিংশুমার), words meaning ‘the gangetic porpoise’; the first of these words seems to mean ‘killer of babies’, but since the latter is found even in the earliest texts in India, the derivation ought to be considered uncertain). β, among these, forms the junction with shatabhiSak.

    siMsumAra referred not only to Capricorn, but also to Dolphin and to Draco.

    citrA (চিত্রা)
    The word is related to the meanings ‘conspicuous’ or ‘bright’, and the asterism is represented by a lamp or a pearl. It is visualized as the head of prajApati (see under hastA above) and is presided over by the deity tvaSTR (ত্বষ্টা) (fabricator). It consists of α (spica) Virginis.

    Other individual stars which were named include agastya (অগস্ত্য) (traditionally derived as one who throws the unmoving, i.e. a mountain) which is α (Carinae or Canopus) of argo navis, brahma hRdaya (ব্রহ্মহৃদয়) (heart of brahma, the eternal principle, related to a word for growth) which is α-Aurigae (Capella), AryamaNa (আর্যমণ) (belonging to aryaman (অর্যমা) meaning a friend, word ultimately related to a word for straight) which is either α-Aurigae (Capella) or α-Boötes (arctaurus)...

    The entire nether world is the night sky with varuNa (বরুণ) holding the tree that is at plakSa prasravana (প্লক্ষ প্রস্রবন) (‘source of the fig tree’; it is where the river sarasvati (সরস্বতী), i.e. the one with lakes, arises) with its roots in this nether world: as night turns to day, the world flips over to face the day sky. In some mythology, it is the sun that flips instead after moving from west to east with its dark side facing us. In any case, at night the entire sky turns counterclockwise about the pole star with this tree as the axis and the Ursa Major is seen as a ladle (কোশ) that pours out every night.


    Ghrtaci is a wife of Vasistha and "ladle of ghee".

    E. ghṛta ghee, añca to worship


    ghṛtakumbha (घृतकुंभ).—m S (Ghee-pot.) A poetical figure for an enraptured lover

    or generically:

    the measure kumbha

    i. e., a liquid measure or volume, from which Agastya was "measured".

    Ghrtaci is said to be "in the chariot" for the month of Kumbha. Visually it is of course a Jar, but, in the view that the Jar is the Goddess:

    The Katha-sarit-sagara 70.112 - equates the kumbha or ghata explicitly to the uterus.

    and from Creation to Death:

    Quote There are two different conceptions of death in the Rgveda, which gives several distinct
    funerary rites in its later book, namely x. 14, x. 18, x. 35. The earlier concept of death in
    the RV is unquestionably going to sleep, the long sleep from which there is no
    awakening. Many of the demons killed by Indra sink down into this eternal sleep. The
    Vasigtha hymn vii. 55 seems to have begun as a funeral hymn; then mistaken for and
    further transformed into a lullaby. Correspondingly, we have the lower level of the
    cemetery H at Harappa with extended burials. The dead sleep peacefully, furnished with
    grave goods and supplied with jars that must once have contained the drink of
    immortality, Soma. This cemetery is undoubtedly Aryan, and the city itself to be
    identified with the Hariyupiya of vi.27.5-6, though the battle mentioned there might refer
    equally well to conflict between two waves of Aryan invaders as to the first Aryan
    conquest of the city. When we come to the top layer of cemetery H, however, the
    character of the burials changes abruptly. The dead adults survive only in jars, where
    their remains are placed after the body had been cremated or decarnated by birds of prey.

    The custom is mentioned in all the major ritual books, such as those of Agvalayana,
    Katyayana, and so on, and the jar where the bones are placed is specifically called the
    kumbha. This corresponds to the later Rgvedic concept of death (i. 164.32, sa matur yona
    parivito ontar bahupraja nirrtim a vivesa), namely return to the mother's womb, and is
    proved very dearly in the case of cemetery H by the crouched position in which dead
    infants are placed within the jar; apparently, the bodies of children could be sent back to
    the mother directly, without being stripped of later fleshy accretions by fire or carrioneaters.

    They picture, but perhaps do not understand, this:

    ...one peculiar decoration in this later Harappan grave pottery, namely, the peacock
    (Fig. 2.9) containing a recumbent human figure within the disc that forms the bird's body.

    We understand it as Gandharva Sattva from Buddhist Tantra.

    Like Agni Born in Water:

    Vasistha is apparently clad in
    the lightning vidyuto jyotih pari samjihanam (vii. 33.10)

    Being born
    from or because of the apsaras Urvasi and brought to human beings by the similarly born
    Agastya was Vasitstha's origin as a Brahmin, obviously un-Aryan as we shall see later.

    In RV, x. 10. 4-5, Yama and his twin sister Yami the first humans are
    born of the Gandharva and the, water-woman (apya yosa) being fashioned by Tvastr,
    even in the womb, to be husband and wife. In x. 85, the Gandharva seems to have special
    rights over all women, especially the virgins. This partly accounts for the apya kamyani
    of x. 95.10, and the child born from the waters, janiso apo naryah. Of course, there is a
    dear physiological exotic factor also present, Psychoanalysts have maintained that
    "drawn from the waters" is an old representation for just ordinary human birth.

    Yes, of course, or it is the State of Being in a Womb, the point of which is a state of consciousness--do you remember it?

    Before this, the peacock-encased Bardo being?

    It seems likely that Visvamitra also related Ghrtaci to the Year:

    The months, the half months, (the gods) who are the receivers of oblations, with the butter-yielding kine [ghṛtācyā]...

    The months: pra vo vājā abhidyavo haviṣmanto ghṛtācyā: vājā = māsāḥ, months

    or, the first line is for Agni related to the Rtus.

    It is sneaky, but, yes, in its third context, Vaja:

    1) A month.

    We are not sure if meant this way by Vasistha:

    “Invoke, (worshippers), the unresisting earth, and the adorable hero, Pūṣan; (invoke) Bhaga, the protector of this our sacrifice, and Vāja, the sustainer of old, the liberal of gifts to our solemnity.”

    In Book Six there is a "vajasata" in the Solar Gayatri of Pusan Pathaspati:

    06.053.01a 8 vayám u tvā pathas pate
    06.053.01b 8 ráthaṃ ná vā́jasātaye
    06.053.01c 8 dhiyé pūṣann ayujmahi

    Instead of ending customarily like "dhimahi, tanno Pusan prachodyat", it is almost the same, dhiye, meditate intelligently, ayuj mahi, to practice great yoga.

    It goes on to mention:

    Conduct us to a gracious householder

    soften the heart of the miser

    This repeatedly equates "Pani" to "miser", and Pusan to "Kavi".

    Mostly, "vaja" appears to be "steeds" or "might" as in VI.22:

    tám u naḥ pū́rve pitáro návagvāḥ saptá víprāso abhí vājáyantaḥ

    Our sires of old,. Navagvas, sages seven, while urging him to show his might, extolled him

    One could try to contend the Seven Sages invoked the Twelve Month Year.

    So far, there is nothing directly in the text that shows me Bharadvaja specifically means this.

    Vasistha does, and then, it is not a tremendous leap of faith to think of a "first almanac council" where people might agree that, usually, every five years the rain is not good. Obviously, you have to observe a lot of five-year cycles to try to determine why this doesn't always work, and over time you would get a lot of mini-schools of agricultural and astronomical variation.

    And, this most likely did take mathematical influence from Alexandria and perhaps Harran or Chaldea. That is why in the Puranas, we find a Zodiac and myths similar to Babylonian or Semitic.

    If Vedanga Jyotisa was "Vedic Astrology" it did not have this, and emphasized minor stars such as in Auriga, Simsumara or Delphinus, and Lord of Water and Son of Water near Tvastr--Spica.

    It had to be invented, since Draco and Taurus were no longer reliable.

    It can only have this purpose if it was in the ca. 2,000 B. C. E. time frame.

    Again, it looks to me like humanity did a fairly poor job of recording observations (e. g., Supernovae), cataclysms (Santorini), weather patterns, or a few generations of kings, I am not prepared in any way to accept that tiny details mean any extraordinarily ancient details about precession and pole star shifts. One could probably say there was a "Mark I" developed from around 3,000 B. C. E., and its lack of permanence caused confusion and great concern.

    Vasistha was an exponent of Asura Varuna, meaning later terminology is not accurate, and he has to do with, quite possibly, the older Sky God Garhial of IVC. Subsequently, with the Adityas.

    And, I would strongly suggest this is the allusion or metaphor in VII.35, which began with hybrid Indras, to Agni, Varuna, Soma, and the striking:

    śaṃ na indrāpūṣaṇā vājasātau ||

    having as its main meaning:

    be wiḥ us: The leading refrain is the same in 13 ṛcas: śam na bhavatām, sometimes slightly varied: may they two be our happiness;

    Śam = śantyai, for our peace of happiness

    It has four suns and then it has numerous other likely suns, and then it seems to recall Varuna as chief of the Adityas in this characteristic line:

    śaṃ na indro vasubhir devo astu śam ādityebhir varuṇaḥ suśaṃsaḥ | śaṃ no rudro rudrebhir jalāṣaḥ śaṃ nas tvaṣṭā gnābhir iha śṛṇotu ||

    “May the divine (Indra), with the Vasus, grant us happiness; may the justly-praised Varuṇa, with the Ādityas, be (friendly to) our happiness; may the grief-assuaging Rudra, with the Rudras, be (for) our happiness; may Tvaṣṭā, with the wives of the gods, be (with us) for our happiness, and hear us at this solemnity.”

    Then it recalls Pusan in an unusual way with Vishnu, Aditi, and Life Wind.

    Towards the end it says the standard, Vasus, Adityas, and Rudras.

    To understand it, Sayana says that Samsa is:

    Narāśaṃsa (नराशंस).—[masculine] [Epithet] of Agni or Pūṣan.

    Name of Agni ([especially] in the Āprī hymns, besides or instead of Tanū́-nápāt q.v.)

    Pūṣan e.g. [Ṛg-veda i, 164, 3; x. 64, 3]

    Aside from Varuna and Pusan combined with Indra at the beginning of VII.35, this is who it also mentions that could be considered individual Adityas:




    Aryaman purujāto


    sū́rya urucákṣā

    tváṣṭā gnā́bhir

    víṣṇu (with Pusan)



    kṣétrasya pátir šambhúḥ

    It doesn't say; it just names them as sources of happiness.

    After so much tribulation over "what is an Arya?", I am not sure why there isn't a response based on Aryaman:

    His name literally means 'companion'.

    1) Aryaman (अर्यमन्):—[from arya] m. a bosom friend, play-fellow, companion, (especially) a friend who asks a woman in marriage for another

    So far we are able to tell that Bharadvaja approached the Householders, and an intent of Grhapati is certainly present. So there was at least an attempt to involve the public with a degree of awareness. The expression "pani" becomes generic, if indeed it was the proper name of a group. Soon, it describes cheats, frauds, and persons whose motive is profit.

    I certainly get the sense the Sages are trying to promote and grow a moral value system based on generosity and the Guest or Atithi. I don't think Bharadvaja was just collecting taxes for the church. I think it is more along the lines of general welfare. That is, the civilization is supposed to achieve prosperity and produce excess, within which is supposed to be a culture of friendliness. Slightly utopian. Perhaps completely. Practically everything in these Books is a success story. That of course does not sound realistic to a Householder these days.

    Vasistha is not exactly "realistic".

    We are confronted by a human spawned from Ghrtaci, and a non-physical or Kavi state of being.

    He has some kind of a cult based on Asura Varuna, which if anything is a sign of a "previous cycle", and, it probably is intended to expand to Twelve Adityas including Vishnu.
    Last edited by shaberon; 4th March 2024 at 07:40.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Book Four: Mandala Four



    The main event and characters:

    the battle beyond the Sarayu appears
    to have taken place under the leadership of his remote descendant
    Sahadeva in the Middle Period of the Rigveda.

    Sahadevas son (referred to by his priest VAmadeva in IV. 15.7-
    10), who also appears to have been a participant, in the above battle
    beyond the Sarayu...Somaka

    descendants Sahadeva and Somaka have the Kutsas and the
    VAmadevas as their priests.

    Elsewhere in Rg Veda as related family authors:

    Nodhas Gautama

    BRhaduktha, named in V.19.5, has the patronymic

    (author of X.54-56)

    X.88 Murdhanvan Vamadevya

    X.126 Amhomuk Vamadevya

    And the other contributors in Book Four:

    Purumilha and Ajamilha Sauhotra

    The first references to the Indus are in the middle upa-
    maNDalas (1.83.1) and in MaNDala IV (IV.30.12; 54.6; 55.3). There
    is, perhaps, a westward movement indicated even in the very identity
    of the composers of the hymns which contain these references: 1.83
    is composed by Gotama RAhUgaNa who does not refer to any river
    west of the Indus, while the references in MaNDala IV are by his
    descendants, the VAmadeva Gautamas, who also refer to two rivers
    to the west of the Indus (IV.18.8: 30.18).

    Thus, we have a clear picture of the westward movement of the
    Vedic Aryans from their homeland in the east of the Sarasvati to the
    area to the west of the Indus, towards the end of the Early Period of
    the Rigveda: IV.30.18 refers to what is clearly the westernmost point
    in this movement, a battle fought in southern Afghanistan on yonder
    side of Sarayu.

    Appears to be also the first mention of this place:

    RasA (IV. 43.6)

    As for the enemies:

    in all those cases, the references are general references to both
    Arya and DAsa enennies, and no specific persons identifiable as
    Aryas are named as such. In this unique reference (IV.30.18),
    however, we find two specific individuals named as Arya enemies.

    The reference to the battle beyond the Sarayu in IV.30.18
    refers to ArNa and Citraratha, both Aryas, who were killed in the
    battle by (the grace of) Indra.

    According to IV. 28.4, the Dasyus are a section among the

    abrahma (prayerless): IV. 16.9.

    For Indra:

    Two entire hymns, namely 111.48
    and IV. 18, deal with the subject of his birth.

    This is very telling:

    AriStanemi TArkSya (1 hymn): X.178.

    The only hymns which have repetitions in common
    with X.178 are by VAmadeva Gautama:

    X.178.2: IV.23.10
    PRthvI bahule gabhire
    X.178.3: IV.38.10
    SavasA pahca kRSTIh sUrya iva

    One finds Srnjaya and Devavata in:

    IV. 15.4


    IV. 26.3; 30.20

    Somaka is referred to as the son of Sahadeva (IV. 15.7-10).
    (SRnjaya and DevavAta are referred to in verse 4 of the hymn.)

    Sahadeva, a descendant of SudAs (as per all traditional
    information) is referred to as a contemporary in hymn 1.100; while his
    son Somaka is referred to as a contemporary in IV.15.

    One notices that none of the intervening Bharatas are present, not even Sudas. There is the trio of almost legendary patriarchs, and flash forward to the present.

    BhRgus are credited in the Rigveda with the manufacture of Indras
    thunderbolt: in IV. 16.20, they are described as the manufacturers of
    Indras chariot.

    It appears to have the first mention of:

    Turviti and Vayya: IV. 19.6

    IV.42 is credited to Trasadasyu, who has no "Raja" title, although he calls himself one. The hymn is most likely an interpolation, as he lived later than Vamadeva, and perhaps it should have gone to Book One. It is in here before the Sauhotra hymns. His claim is:

    The seven ṛṣis were the protectors of this our (kingdom) when the son of Durgaha [Purukutsa] was in bonds...

    Strongly sensing interpolation about the Trksis:

    VAmadeva even calls Trasadasyu an
    ardhadeva or demi-god (IV.42.8, 9)

    In respect of IV.42.8-9, Griffith tells us that Grassmann banishes
    stanzas 8, 9 and 10 to the appendix as late additions to the hymn.

    IV.38.1 refers to Trasadasyu in the first verse; the rest of it is a Dadhikra hymn, with a few odd expressions such as:

    turayann ṛjipyo


    ṣīm ayodhīd

    Keep in mind "Trksi" with respect to "Tarksya" as mentioned above--the first being the eastern or Ayodhya tribe, the latter, their likely namesake, is an individual possibly Kasyapa.

    What is evident here is that Vamadeva is not the lineage head, but a follower of:

    gotamo rāhūgaṇaḥ

    who composed I.74-93. Nodhas Gautama has about another six hymns there. So a portion of Book One must be contemporary to Vamadeva's Book Four.

    Gotama must have been approximately contemporary to Sudas, so then "the Gautamas" would be like Sudas's sons, or in their generation. Vamadeva has been split or is not traveling with his pack--one presumes for a reason, but whether of his own or that of the compilers, we do not know.

    We just found Vasistha uses jotir/jyotisa about twice as much as his predecessors, and has a twelve-fold year that possibly implies the Adityas.

    There are multiple external reasons to think of a "new clock", and, we may be forced to live with the fact that there is one that defines itself and in so doing, may press the 2,000 B. C. E. mark; it may not be that far; we want to stay in "relative" terms, i. e., we can show a sequence which might vary in its exact dates by a few hundred years. Several of our sources are confident it goes to 3,000 B. C. E., but, for the time being, I put its upper bound at Rimush of Akkadia, around 2,270 B. C. E., mostly because we can find the occurrence of Drought, and multiple reasons for sour human relations.

    Astrology or Vedanga Jyotish is for some reason in the Yajur Veda. Vedangas are subjects that are sub-knowledges, i. e. mundane arts and sciences to be developed. Given its own internal evidence, it most likely is a tool to observe Precession from this point:

    The Sun begins moving northward at the winter solstice, which 4,000 years ago was when the Sun entered Shravishtha.

    Quote Vedic culture spanned a very long period of time, it appears at least from 4k B.C. to about 1k B.C. During this time the equinox seems to have been NOTED to drift against the stars, and thus the stars associated with the “first” position and the solstices and equinoxes were updated, up till the relative decline of knowledge in Kali-Yuga around 0B.C. at which point we became locked into thinking that the tropical measurements and the stars were identical, and Asvini seems to have been forever deemed the “first star” and the center point of Mula (beginning of sidereal Capricorn) is forever deemed (erroneously) to be the beginning of the Sun moving northward (uttarayana). Thus it seems that ancient Vedic Indians were aware of equinotical precession, but later lost their knowledge of it with the general decline of culture that occurred entering the “A.D.” historical era.

    So, yes, India listened to Alexandrian math and science and wound up with *part* of western astrology, minus the actual tropical system because it still tracks through the Days of the Moon.

    Of course, for various reasons, previous examinations of this subject did not delve so far into antiquity--the last post found a 650-year correction by some fairly simple arguments. This is easy to do, because you just deny conclusions--such as Aryan Invasion--and just look at the same information some famous author used, and then keep reminding yourself "this does not mean they lived in the Arctic region" or something like that.

    From a view favoring the date 1340 B. C. E.:

    Quote The Rgvedic hymn 1.164, on the cosmic times-wheel by sage Dirghatamas, speaks of a wheel of time, with a year consisting of twelve lunar months and 360 lunar days (RV 1 164.1) and starts the year with the autumn star Agni (Krittika, Alcyone, long. 59°.5) which on calculation gives a date c 2350 B C.

    In another Rgvedic hymn 3.99, which also mentions Krittika as the autumn star (c. 2350 B C.), sage Visvamitra worships 3339 (371 x9) devas and apparently refers to a period of 30 years consisting of 371 lunar months. This would give a year of 371 lunar days, working out to 365.19 solar days. Then, comes Vedangas.

    The full set of observations for this "zero point" are:

    1. The winter solstice in the beginning of Shravishtha, (divisional) ;
    2. The vernal equinox in 10 of Bharani;
    3. The summer solstice in the middle of Ashlesha, and
    4. The autumnal equinox in 3 20' of Vishakha.

    Even with relatively crude instruments, you would be able to measure this. However, long-term calculations carried out from this system are of course inaccurate. Even the later Siddhantas are not that great. Anything said, other than what is directly observed, should be considered imprecise.

    The above quotes may not withstand analysis--after all, we thought Krtikka was all about the Spring Equinox.

    Not sure how Visvamitra "apparently" refers to an equation--he either gives one and it works or not.

    We don't need to get it sorted right now, but, for the most part, it sounds like the "Vedanga" had started in a relatively early period of the Veda.

    Since, at the very least, observational astronomy in a spoken tradition must have been around well before anything that I, at least, think of as the Vedic time frame, then yes, I think we have to go to IVC Garhial right away. You would almost have to say that it was an ancient legend based on Draco, that physically had to adapt to Delphinus.

    The difference between the two cultures is time? New clock maybe??

    The harsh incongruity would be to ask ourselves if the Naksatras are really that old. It is not possible to determine if the Solstice at Dhanistha may have been an oral legend about a particular star, that the Vedanga later re-defined in Naksatra terms. Or, exactly how and when their exact division was given. Fortunately, the question about what stars are involved is answerable.

    The Naksatra is not a constellation, but, a 13 deg.20' arc based around a constellation or noteworthy star.

    This is slightly unfamiliar territory, since I have never had much call to refer to Book Four and I have no instinct about new mystical revelation or any clue why Vamadeva might be split from his lineage head.

    It just so happens that there is at least one pattern which someone has already found.

    This is coming from a different kind of thesis, but, it will home in on Vamadeva:

    The most important of Urvasi associations has been lost in most translations. This is
    with Usas, the goddess of the dawn and possibly the brhaddiva of v. 41. 19. In x. 96.2,
    Urvasi says that she has passed over like the first of the dawns, and this seems a mere
    simile. The problem then is to explain away the uso in 4, and this is done in many
    different ways, none convincing. The explanation I offer is that Urvasi has readied the
    status of an Usas...

    In x. 95. 8.9, we noted that the apsaras and her companions strip off their clothing; that
    was also the way in which Menaka and others seduced the sages. Quite remarkably, it is
    the goddess Usas who most often bares herself to the sight of men in this way. In i. 123.
    11, she reveals her body like a young woman decorated by her mother : avis tanvam
    krtiuse drse kam In i. 124.7 usa hasreva ni rinite apsah, she reveals her secret charms
    like a lascivious woman, or like a smiling one, as you take hasia. But in the same rk she
    goes towards men like a brotherless woman, mounting the throne, platform, or stage for
    the sake of wealth : abhrdteva pumsa eti pratici, gartarug iva sanaye dhandnam, where
    the meaning of gartaruk is not clear. Obviously the reference is to one who has no brother
    to make a match for her, hence must display herself upon some high place to collect a
    dowry. Perhaps v. 80.4-6 contain the oftenest repeated mention of this self-exposure of
    the dawn goddess, but her revealing her bossom and charms to men is quite common.
    Remarkably enough, this performance is seen often on Syro-Hittite seals (W. H. Ward :
    Sect Cylinders of Western Asia. chap. L) where the Indian humped bull is shown : at
    times as her pedestal. (Fig. 2.3) There is no shame attached to this : nodha ivavir akrta
    priyani, like a girl with yet immature breasts (nodha iva, after Grassmann's suggestion).
    We can understand the bewitching apsaras doing this, for it is her function to attract men.
    But why Usas?

    There are at least twenty one complete hymns dedicated to her, and she is
    important enough to be invited in the special sacrificial chants known as apri-hymns. In
    these hymns, with their rigidly fixed structure, Usas comes just after the opening of the
    divine doors, to be mentioned either together with the night (usasa-nakta) or in the dual,
    which would again mean the same pair. That is too high an honour for a mere witch, or
    one who behaves like a hetaera.

    She is the sun's wife on occasion, as in
    vii. 75.5 suryasya yosa, but perhaps his sister and also his mother iii. 61.4 svarjananti.
    Yet this is not enough to explain her importance. In i. 113.19, she is the mother of all the
    gods, a numen of Aditi : mata devanam aditer anikam. Her real status slips out in a most
    important reference, which is in a hymn dedicated to Agni (iv. 2 . 15).

    adha matur usasa sapta viprah jayemahi prathma vedhaso nrn
    divas-putra angiraso bhavema adrim rujema dhaninam sucantah.

    "We seven sages shall generate (or be born) from mother Usas, the first men sacrificers;
    we shall become Angirasas, sons of heaven, we shall burst the rich mountain, shining

    Usas was, therefore, a high mother goddess, literally Mater Matuta. How did she
    come to lose this position ?

    Vasistha says abhiid usa indratama maghoni (vii. 79.3), where the aorist past tense
    seems to me to indicate that Usas had once been but was no longer superlatively Indra's
    equal. The support for this is from the tale of conflict between the two deities. The
    mention is not isolated, for we find it in ii. 15.6, x.138.5, x.73.6, but with greatest detail
    in iv. 30.8-11 :

    etad ghed uta viryam indra cakartha paunsyam
    striyam yad durhanayuvam vadhir duhitaraw divah (8)
    divas cid gha duhitaram mahan mahiyamanam; ussam indra sam pinak (9)
    apa usa anasah sarat sampistad aha bibhyusi; ne yat sim sisnathad vrsa (10)
    etad asya anah saye susampistam vipasya; sasara sim parvatah (11)

    ‘This heroic and virile deed didst thou also do, O Indra, that thou didst strike down (or
    kill) the evil-plotting woman, the daughter of heaven. Usas, verily the daughter of
    heaven, the great, to be regarded as great didst thou crush, O Indra. Usas fled from the
    shattered wagon in fright, when the Bull (Indra) had rammed her. Her wagon lay
    completely smashed to bits on the Vipas (river), she (herself) fled to the furthest

    There is no reason or explanation given for this conflict...

    In 11.15.6, the reference is to a mythical clash between Indra and
    USas on the banks of a river (Griffiths translation: With mighty power
    he made the stream move upward, crushed with his thunderbolt the
    car of USas.). And which is this stream or river? No guesswork is
    required: the Rigveda refers to this myth in one more hymn,
    Vl.30.11, as well (Griffiths translation: So there this car of USas lay,
    broken to pieces, in VipAS, and she herself fled away.).

    His displacement of Varuna is just
    barely to be seen in a dialogue (iv. 42). Indra and the older chief god Tvastr (whose
    position I have traced elsewhere) have no such open conflict at this.

    Above, Usas has:

    the wagon

    She is ascribed only
    an ordinary horse-chariot (ratha) in most later hymns. The ox-cart, like the archaism sim,
    must represent great antiquity. At the same time, she is an ancient goddess in spite of her
    virginity and youth, which are preserved by her being born again and again : punah punar
    jaya-mana purani (i.92.10).

    in i.72.5, it is clear that the father is the sky-god,
    while Usas is emphatically the daughter of heaven as both commentators and translators
    point out here; the progeny are the Angirasas. In iii. 31.1. seq. we have much the same
    theme, as also in x. 61.7, while in i. 164.33, the daughter has become the Earth.

    Her connection with later hetaerism may
    be seen from Sayana's comment upon the word vra, which he takes as a name of Usas, as
    for example in i. 121.2, and iv. 1.16; in the latter hymn, it would make much (better sense
    to take Usas as the cow-mother, the goddess whose thrice seven secret names were
    known only to the initiates.

    There is only one more reference to Urvasi in the Rgveda (iv. 2.18; AV. xviii. 3.23),
    just after the striking mention of Usas with the seven seers:

    a yutheva ksumati pasvo akhyad devanam yaj janim anty ugra
    martanam cid urvasir akrpran vrdhe cid arya uparasyayoh

    The Urvasis are here in the plural; ayu can again be taken as the legendary son, or some
    adjective, Grassmann makes Urvasi also into an abstraction 'der Menschen heisse
    Wunsche', but seeing that the Usas do also occur in the plural, and that Urvasi had
    become an U§as before finishing with Pururavas, there is no reason
    why we should not take the word as still referring to the nymphs. The proper translation
    of the second line, therefore, would be something like "The Urvasis have taken pity upon
    mortals, even to helping the later kinsman Ayu". Presumably, the son and successors of
    Aila Pururavas were not sacrificed...

    The only male
    god with wings as well as arms is explicitly Visvakarman in x. 81.3. There is a winged
    demon suparnayatu against which the Vasisthas pray for protection in vii. 104.22. But i.
    22.11 hopes that the gods' wives would be with unbroken wings, acchinna-patrah
    sacantam. That the dawns, or the dawn-night pair were winged seems quite clear from
    two prayers in distress: i. 105.11 suparna eta asate and ma mam ime patatrini vi
    dugdham (i. 58.4). These goddesses reduce man's life day by day, and so are deathgoddesses themselves as probably were also the terrifying bird-headed Indus terracottas.
    All the more natural if, as mother-goddess, one of them were to cause the death of her
    consort in a sacrifice...

    dearly her husbands in iv. 43.6 [ambitious; hymn addresses the Aswins, lords of Surya]

    RV. i. 167.4, where the goddess Rodasi is common to all the Maruts, under the title of
    sadharani (plus the incomprehensible yavya= fertile?). Whether this indicates fraternal
    polyandry (as I incline to think) or a form of prostitution is not clear; the question is
    further complicated by Rodasi (with a displaced accent) being elsewhere equated to the
    combination of earth and sky, hence two goddesses rather than one

    The bridegroom in x. 85.36 takes his bride by the hand at the crucial stage of the
    wedding, yet in the very next rk the woman is spoken of as she who receives the seed of
    (many) men : yasyam bijam manusya vapanti

    Men seem always to have monopolized ploughing (iv. 57)

    So in that view, we find something happened to Usas at the Beas River--and, we are anticipating it is the heights of this thing that are some kind of quest resulting in Manali.

    In the more normative view of Indra, Vamadeva is the first to take him west of the Indus.

    I.79, v. 10 sounds normal for yoga:

    O Gotama, desiring bliss...

    I am not sure we have scouted for precursors of Avadhut, such as in I.80:

    maṛ́tvām̆ ávadhīr


    each thing both fixed and moving shook,
    E' en Tvastar trembled at thy wrath...

    yā́m átharvā mánuṣ pitā́ dadhyáň dhíyam átnata
    tásmin bráhmāṇi pūrváthéndra ukthā́ sám agmatā́rcann ánu svarā́jyam

    Still as of old, whatever rite Atharvan, Manus sire of all,
    Dadhyach performed, their prayer and praise united in that Indra meet, lauding his own imperial sway.

    Further in Gotama's works, I.83:

    yajñáir átharvā prathamáḥ pathás tate tátaḥ sū́ryo vratapā́ vená ā́jani
    ā́ gā́ ājad ušánā kāvyáḥ sácā yamásya jātám amṛ́taṃ yajāmahe

    Atharvan first by sacrifices laid the paths then, guardian of the Law, sprang up the loving Sun.
    Usana Kavya straightway hither drove the kine. Let us with offerings honour Yama's deathless birth.


    Struck nine-and-ninety Vrtras dead.
    He, searching for the horse's head, removed among the mountains, found

    At Saryanavan what he sought.
    Then verily they recognized the essential form of Tvastar's Bull,

    Here in the mansion of the Moon.
    Who yokes to-day unto the pole of Order the strong and passionate steers of checkless spirit,

    With shaft-armed mouths, heart-piercing, health-bestowing?
    Long shall he live who richly pays their service.

    In the next hymn, he equates Rudras to Marut Gana, sons of Prsni.

    When Tvastar deft of hand had turned the thunderbolt, golden, with thousand edges, fashioned more skilfully,
    Indra received it to perform heroic deeds. Vrtra he slew, and forced the flood of water forth.

    In the next hymn:

    Conceal the horrid darkness, drive far from us each devouring fiend.
    Create the light for which we long.

    Jyotir opposes Tamas.

    He invokes together Pusan and Vishnu.

    It is in the "sam nah" style like the one we saw from Vasistha:

    Be Mitra gracious unto us, and Varuna and Aryaman:
    Indra, Brhaspati be kind, and Visnu of the mighty stride.

    víṣṇur urukramáḥ

    a "mighty" sage:

    dákṣaḥ sacate kavíḥ

    Sounds conciliatory:

    Like tints that deck the Post at sacrifices, Heaven's Daughter hath attained her wondrous splendour.

    The Gotamas have praised Heaven's radiant Daughter, the leader of the charm of pleasant voices.

    Bending her looks on all the world, the Goddess shines, widely spreading with her bright eye westward.
    Waking to motion every living creature, she understands the voice of each adorer.

    Allright. To visually comb Vamadeva's Mandala Four, we see this kind of Lion:

    siṃhó ná bhīmá

    and this kind of self-reference:

    ghorā́ yád arya sámṛtir bhávāty ádha smā nas tanvo | bodhi gopā́ḥ

    When, Faithful One, the dread encounter cometh, then be thou the Protector of our body.

    Further the holy thoughts of Vamadeva be thou a guileless Friend in fight for booty.

    with the identity reinforced in IV.4:

    Through words and kinship I destroy the mighty: this power I have from Gotama my father.

    Oh. So, the personalization given here is very destructive.

    They are still countering this kind of fort:

    púro dā́sīr

    And "they" are mentioned also as:

    Indra, Lover of the Song,
    Thou wroughtest when the Soma flowed.
    Indra, the Gotamas who bring thee praises have grown strong by thee.

    Originally, the primordial sages are Vipra in IV.2:

    May we, seven sages first in rank, engender, from Dawn the Mother, men to be ordainers.
    May we, Angirases, be sons of Heaven, and, radiant, burst the wealth-containing mountain.

    As in the days of old our ancient Fathers, speeding the work of holy worship, Agni,
    Sought pure light and devotion, singing praises; they cleft the ground and made red Dawns apparent.

    Gods, doing holy acts, devout, resplendent, smelting like ore their human generations.
    Enkindling Agni and exalting Indra, they came encompassing the stall of cattle.

    Strong One! he marked them-and the Gods before them-like herds of cattle in a foodful pasture.
    There they moaned forth their strong desire for mortals, to aid the True, the nearest One, the Living.

    We have worked for thee, we have laboured nobly-bright Dawns have shed their light upon our worship-
    Adding a beauty to the perfect Agni, and the God's beauteous eye that shines for ever.

    Then we see Sapta Rishi in the Trasadasyu interpolation.

    They are definitely trying to get in your house in IV.7:

    HERE by ordainers was this God appointed first Invoker, best at worship, to be praised at rites:
    Whom Apnavana, and the Bhrgus caused to shine bright-coloured in the wood, spreading from home to home.

    Vivasvan's envoy living men have taken as their ensign, swift,
    The ruler over all mankind, moving like Bhrgu in each home.

    Him the intelligent have they placed duly as Invoking Priest,
    Welcome, with sanctifying flame, best worshipper, with sevenfold might;

    In his Eternal Mothers, in the wood, concealed and unapproached,
    Kept secret though his flames are bright seeking on all sides, quickly found.

    Puranic Aditi shrugs off Indra's behavior as irrelevant. The story is indicated here, but I am not sure about the exact words, and the intent may be different in IV.18:

    THIS is the ancient and accepted pathway by which all Gods have come into existence...

    He bent his eye upon the dying Mother: My word I now withdraw. That way I follow.
    In Tvastar's dwelling Indra drank the Soma, a hundredworth of juice pressed from the mortar.

    Deeming him a reproach, his mother hid him, Indra, endowed with all heroic valour.
    Then up he sprang himself, assumed his vesture, and filled, as soon as born, the earth and heaven.

    With lively motion onward flow these waters, the Holy Ones, shouting, as' twere, together.
    Ask them to. tell thee what the floods are saying, what girdling rock the waters burst asunder.

    Are they addressing him with words of welcome? Will the floods take on them the shame of Indra?
    With his great thunderbolt my Son hath slaughtered Vrtra, and set these rivers free to wander.

    I cast thee from me, mine,-thy youthful mother: thee, mine own offspring, Kusava hath swallowed.
    To him, mine infant, were the waters gracious. Indra, my Son, rose up in conquering vigour.

    Thou art mine own, O Maghavan, whom Vyamsa struck to the ground and smote thy jaws in pieces.
    But, smitten through, the mastery thou wonnest, and with thy bolt the Dasa's head thou crushedst.

    The Heifer hath brought forth the Strong, the Mighty, the unconquerable Bull, the furious Indra.
    The Mother left her unlicked Calf to wander, seeking himself, the path that he would follow.

    Then to her mighty Child the Mother turned her, saying, My son, these Deities forsake thee.
    Then Indra said, about to slaughter Vrtra, O my friend Vishnu, stride full boldly forward.

    Who was he then who made thy Mother widow? Who sought to stay thee lying still or moving?
    What God, when by the foot thy Sire thou tookest and slewest, was at hand to give thee comfort?

    In deep distress I cooked a dog's intestines. Among the Gods I found not one to comfort.
    My consort I beheld in degradation. The Falcon then brought me the pleasant Soma.

    There is someone in an Ant Hill other than Valmiki:

    Lord of Bay Steeds, thou broughtest from the ant-hill the unwedded damsel's son whom ants were eating.
    The blind saw clearly, as he grasped the serpent, rose, brake the jar: his joints again united.

    There turns out to be a substantial amount of eulogy based on Rbhus, the Year, and Tvastr:

    The Gods' expert artificer was Vaja, Indra's Rbhuksan, Varuna's was Vibhvan.

    Not without toil are Gods inclined to friendship.

    Next they are revered by goddess Dhisana:

    Rbhus, rejoice together with the Rtus.

    even the two elder-Vajas.

    Rbhus are:


    Children of Sudhanvan


    Since by dexterity and skill as craftsmen ye made the single chalice to be fourfold...

    Ye, whom your artist skill hath raised to Godhead have set you down above in heaven like falcons.
    So give us riches, Children of Sudhanvan, O Sons of Strength; ye have become immortal.

    IV.38-40 are mainly about Dadhikras.


    O Goddesses, is this your car, I ask you, ancient this day, or is it new, ye Mornings,
    Wherewith, rich Dawns, ye seek with wealth Navagva, Dasagva Angira, the seven-toned singer?

    Which among these is eldest, and where is she through whom they fixed the Rbhus' regulations?
    What time the splendid Dawns go forth for splendour, they are not known aparto alike, unwasting.

    Blest were these Dawns of old, shining with succour, true with the truth that springs from holy Order;
    With whom the toiling worshipper, by praises, hymning and lauding, soon attained to riches.

    "Rbhu's regulations" are probably summarized in IV.52 as:


    Thinking of thee, O joyous One, as her who driveth hate away,

    Usas seems to be frequently addressed with Order in the translations.

    Rbhus and Rtus are different groups but both subject to Rta.

    It is apparent that, as they are mentioned in Book Six, have few hymns in the next ones, Rbhus have a section or are a subject with Vamadeva. There is a Rbhus section, a Dadhikra section, and I suppose multiple Usas sections. It does not attempt to compete on the Adityas--it has "Indravishnu" twice. As they are named in VI.50:

    May Rudra and Sarasvati, accordant, Visnu and Vayu, pour down gifts and bless us;
    Rbhuksan, Vaja, and divine Vidhatar, Parjanya, Vata make our food abundant.

    Vamadeva's only expression of Vishnu outside of the story:

    kathā́ mahé puṣṭimbharā́ya pūṣṇé kád rudrā́ya súmakhāya havirdé
    kád víṣṇava urugāyā́ya réto brávaḥ kád agne šárave bṛhatyái

    How to great Pusan who promotes our welfare,-to honoured Rudra what, who gives oblations?
    What sin of ours to the far-striding Visnu, what, Agni, wilt thou tell the Lofty Arrow.

    That seems semi-coherent, to me, at least, if it is plausible that Vasistha has more on Vishnu, Vamadeva has the Rbhus and Usas.

    The regular Vedic expression in IV.53:

    Savitar the God, the sapient Asura

    Vamadeva ends in a somewhat remarkable way. This is not quite the Churning of the Ocean, but, it is at least the Ocean of Waves of Honey Doctrine in IV.58:

    samudrā́d ūrmír mádhumām̆

    having as holy oil:


    I think this would be really difficult to give an external meaning. It has become much easier to say he must be talking about a yoga experience.

    It is hard not to read this as what in Buddhism we would like to call Melted Bodhicitta. On the other hand, it also states what the enemies are ignorant of:

    FORTH from the ocean sprang the wave of sweetness: together with the stalk it turned to Amrta,
    That which is holy oil's mysterious title: but the Gods' tongue is truly Amrta's centre.

    Let us declare aloud the name of Ghrta, and at this sacrifice hold it up with homage.
    So let the Brahman hear the praise we utter. This hath the four-horned Buffalo emitted.

    Four are his horns, three are the feet that bear him; his heads are two, his hands are seven in number.
    Bound with a triple bond the Steer roars loudly: the mighty God hath entered in to mortals.

    That oil in triple shape the Gods discovered laid down within the Cow, concealed by Panis.
    Indra produced one shape, Surya another: by their own power they formed the third from Vena.

    From inmost reservoir in countless channels flow down these rivers which the foe beholds not.
    I look upon the streams of oil descending, and lo! the Golden Reed is there among them.

    Like rivers our libations flow together, cleansing themselves in inmost heart and spirit.
    The streams of holy oil pour swiftly downward like the wild beasts that fly before the bowman.

    As rushing down the rapids of a river, flow swifter than the wind the vigorous currents,
    The streams of oil in swelling fluctuation like a red courser bursting through the fences.

    Like women at a gathering fair to look on and gently smiling, they incline to Agni.
    The streams of holy oil attain the fuel, and Jatavedas joyfully receives them.

    As maidens dock themselves with gay adornment to join the bridal feast, I now behold them.
    Where Soma flows and sacrifice is ready, thither the streams of holy oil are running.

    Send to our eulogy a herd of cattle bestow upon us excellent possessions.
    Bear to the Gods the sacrifice we offer the streams of oil flow pure and full of sweetness.

    The universe depends upon thy power and might within the sea, within the heart, within all life.

    This one gets a lot of Sayana commentary. He is on the level of external symbols. In general we agree but we say it also has an inner meaning:

    that which is the secret name of clarified butter is the tongue of the gods, the navel of ambrosia.

    Quote samudra is the ocean of ghī, from which it rises as its wave, and, having so risen, it pervades immortality by Agni, as the life of the world with whom it is combined.

    That which is the secret name, i.e., the material of sacrifice commonly called ghī is, in the mantras of the Veda, designated the tongue of the gods.

    Since ghī is the secret name for Soma, the object for which it is solemnized is Soma.

    the four cardinal points of the horizon; morning, noon, evening; the two heads of yajña are two particular ceremonies termed brahmaudanam and pravargya; of Āditya, day and night; the seven hands of yajña are the seven metres; of Āditya, the seven rays, or the six seasons and their aggregate, or the year, the seventh

    the three forms or states in which the ghī was deposited in the cow were milk, curds and butter, of which Indra engendered jajāna, milk, Sūrya butter, and the god (devāsaḥ) fabricated (tatakṣuḥ) curds from the shining, venāt, that is Agni; another rendering is devāsaḥ dvijātayaḥ, the twice-born

    these words originate from the ocean of the water of faith, purified by the metres and other supplementary portions of the Vedas, amidst which words the ṛṣis see the golden form of Agni, for Agni is the deity presiding over speech, or holy texts

    purified by the mind that is seated in the heart

    “The whole world, (Agni), finds an asylum in your effulgence, whether it be in the ocean, in the heart (of man), in the life (of living beings), in the assemblage of the waters, or in warfare; may we attain the sweet-flavoured wave which is established in your (essence).”

    the purport is to identify all things with Agni, present in the ocean as submarine fire, in men as vaiśvānara, an etymological pun from viśva, all and nara, man; in life, āyuṣi, as the vital principle, or āyus. may mean food, anna, when the digestive fire is intended; in the assembled waters or the firmament, as lightning; in war, as the metaphorical fire of valour; that sweet-flavoured wave: ūrmiḥ ya ābhṛta

    He is not apparent in all translations:

    venād < venāt < vena


    This name is not well-remembered:

    Vetasa (वेतस).

    2) The citron.

    3) Name of Agni.

    the araṇi, the stick of vetasa of aśvattha, or other trees

    goat willow (vetasa)

    Vetasa is a medium sized tree, growing 10-30 ft. in height. It is found in Kashmir, Persia, Iran and the North-West Frontier Provinces. The plant grows near water and its yellowish red flowered, drooping infloresence presents a beautful look to the river banks.

    The other translation of the hymn tells us:

    We celebrate the name Ghṛta...

    which actually appears in the list of Devatas:

    agniḥ sūryo vā'po vā gāvo vā ghṛtaṃ vā

    whereas the expected name "Ghrtaci" is overlooked in IV.6.

    Rbhus are very unusual--"Rbhuvan and brothers". Unusually for Rg Veda, their deeds are recalled in a Puranic fashion, similar and repetitively. They are repeatedly called sons of Sudhanva. From general information:

    ...they are supposed to take their ease and remain idle for twelve days [the twelve intercalary days of the winter solstice] every year in the house of the Sun [Agohya]; after which they recommence working

    In the Rg Veda, they are described as a class having birth.

    They are also used by Dirghatamas Aucathya and in I.161:

    Ṛbhus are identified in this and following hymns with the rays of the sun, as the instruments of the rain and the causes of fertility.

    Also in I.110.

    Kutsa is a kinsman of Ṛbhus of a former period

    Working on Tvastr's work:

    that ladle for the sacrificial viands which the Asura had formed single, you made fourfold.

    They have a prior hymn in III.60, are named in Book Six, and also used as maker of Maruts.

    Quite problematic is the consistent--almost every time--description of Rbhus as sons of Sudhanvan, who is a lacuna.

    Or, he has numerous Puranic versions, but little that gives the origin of Sudhanvan or "Archer":

    4) [v.s. ...] of Tvaṣṭṛ or Viśva-karman, [cf. Lexicographers, esp. such as amarasiṃha, halāyudha, hemacandra, etc.]

    5) [v.s. ...] of an Āṅgirasa, [Śatapatha-brāhmaṇa; Mahābhārata]

    There is also in IV.40:

    Jiṣṇu, the son of Aṅgiras

    The Rbhus weird interaction with Tvastr is noted on a page of Contradictions in I.161:

    ...when Twashtri observed the one ladle become four, he was immediately lost amongst the women. When Twashtri said, Let us slay those who have profaned the ladle, (designed) for the drinking of the gods; then they made us of other names for one another, as the libation was poured out…

    "Visvakarman" may refer to Tvastr himself, or, to his surviving son, such as in Downson's Dictionary.

    Taittiriya Samhita:

    "This universe was formerly waters, fluid On
    it; Prajapati, becoming wind, moved; He saw this(earth). Becommg
    a boar, he took her up. Becoming Visvakarman, he wiped the
    moisture (from) her. She extended. She became the extended one
    (Prthvi). From this the earth derives her designation as 'the
    extended one'."

    with Ghrtaci:

    Brahma Vaivartta Purana attributes the origin of some of the mixed
    castes to her issue by the sage Visvakarman.

    Second Saubhari:

    A daughter of King Gadhi, wife of the brahmana Rcika, mother
    of Jamadagni and grandmother of Parasurama. She was of the
    Kusika race, and is said to have been transformed into the
    Kausiki river. (see Rcika and Visvamitra)

    Vidhatr 'Creator.' A name of Brahma, of Vishnu, and of Visvakarma.


    ...is described in
    two hymns of the Rgveda as the one "all-seeing god, who has on
    every side eyes, faces, arms and feet, who, when producing
    heaven and earth, blows them forth (or shapes them) with his
    arms and wings; the father, generator, disposer, who knows all
    worlds, gives the gods their names, and is beyond the
    comprehension of mortals". In these hymns also he is said to
    sacrifice himself or to himself.

    In his creative capacity he is sometimes designated Prajapati.
    He also has the appellations Ka.ru, 'workman'; Taksaka,
    'woodcutter'; Devavardhika, 'the builder of the gods'; Sudhanvan,
    'having a good bow'.

    A version of him in a Puranic descent is such as:

    Pariksit I the eldest, Jahnu and Sudhanvan. The account
    deals first with Sudhanvan's descendants, an offshoot, in which was Vasu who conquered and founded anew the kingdoms of Cedi and Magadha.

    being the origin of:

    Kusa, Yadu, Maruta

    also saying:

    Ksemadhanvan of Ayodhya as Sudhanvan

    Similar hymns, probable copies are in Atharva Veda.


    60. She whom Visvakarman (the creator of all) did search out by means of oblations, when she had
    entered the surging (flood of the) atmosphere, she, the vessel destined to nourish, deposited in a secret
    place, became visible (to the gods) and the (heavenly) mothers.
    61. Thou art the scatterer of men, the broadly expanding Aditi that yields milk according to wish. What is
    wanting in thee Pragâpati, first-born of the divine order (rita), shall supply for thee


    14. Rohita arranged a sacrifice for Visvakarman; from it these brilliant, qualities have come to me. Let
    me announce thy origin over the extent of the world!

    18. O Vâkaspati, the five seasons that we have, which have come about as the creation of Visvakarman

    In RV:

    Visvakarman, 'all-creating', appears as the name of an independent deity to whom two hymns (x. 81. 82)
    are addressed.

    From the Rbhus' own hymns:

    1. HE who sate down as Hotar-priest, the Rsi, our Father, offering up all things existing,-
    He, seeking through his wish a great possession, came among men on earth as archetypal.
    2 What was the place whereon he took his station? What was it that supported him? How was it?
    Whence Visvakarman, seeing all, producing the earth, with mighty power disclosed the heavens.
    3 He who hath eyes on all sides round about him, a mouth on all sides, arms and feet on all sides,
    He, the Sole God, producing earth and heaven, weldeth them, with his arms as wings, together.
    4 What was the tree, what wood in sooth produced it, from which they fashioned out the earth and
    Ye thoughtful men inquire within your spirit whereon he stood when he established all things.
    5 Nine highest, lowest, sacrificial natures, and these thy mid-most here, O Visvakarman,
    Teach thou thy friends at sacrifice, O Blessed, and come thyself, exalted, to our worship.
    6 Bring thou thyself, exalted with oblation, O Visvakarman, Earth and Heaven to worship.
    Let other men around us live in folly here let us have a rich and liberal patron.
    7 Let us invoke to-day, to aid our labour, the Lord of Speech, the thought-swift Visvakarman.
    May he hear kindly all our invocations who gives all bliss for aid, whose works are righteous


    2 Mighty in mind and power is Visvakarman, Maker, Disposer, and most lofty Presence.
    Their offerings joy in rich juice where they value One, only One, beyond the Seven Rsis.

    the Deities' narne-giver, him other beings seek for information.

    Rbhu to us is Indra freshest in his might

    Indra, the Rbhus' Lord, I invocate for aid, the Rbhus, Vajas, Maruts to the Soma draught.

    Another version of their main achievement:

    Tvastar, when he viewed the four wrought chalices, concealed himself among the Consorts of the
    5 As Tvastar thus had spoken, Let us slay these men who have reviled the chalice, drinking-cup of Gods,
    They gave themselves new names when Soma juice was shed, and under these new names the Maiden
    welcomed them


    3 Friendship with Indra have the Rbhus, fully gained: grandsons of Manu...

    Descent from Angiras is only found in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad:

    1. Then Bhugyu Lahyayani asked. 'Yagnavalkya,' he said, 'we wandered about as students, and came to
    the house of Patanikala Kapya. He had a daughter who was possessed by a Gandharva. We asked
    him,'Who art thou?' and he (the Gandharva) replied: 'I am Sudhanvan, the Angirasa.'

    In the modern Dictionary:

    kabandha atharvaṇa Is mentioned in the Brhadāranyaka Upanisad along with Sudhanvan Añgirasa, as a teacher, but is semi-mythical. His son was Vicārin Kābandhi.

    suhotra, name of a son of Sudhanvan

    Is that enough to say Sudhanvan <--> Bharadvaja?

    Maybe he was a Gandharva that possessed a girl. Gandharvas are usually Archers.

    We are told that Gandhari, the place, is mentioned one time in:


    And that Gandharva, the creature, is a redaction in:


    because the Vamadevas somehow locked down material belonging to the Visvamitras that must have been misrepresented in the first iteration of the Rg Veda--Book Four was after Three because it was longer. Later Visvamitras must have convinced the Bharatas or "Vyasa" that something was wrong, and added the Afghan name in the process of re-working Book Three.

    As to what that means, whether it was something intentionally done since Gotama's time, I have no idea. Maybe they really are Vamadeva's. I am not sure how you abscond with another family's New Praise even temporarily. That is what it says in Aitareya Brahmana. To appearances' sake, this is one case where it does seem that "Gandharva" most likely is an anachronism, and so the hymn is newer or has been edited than those in Book Three.

    Gandharva would then show up in Book One:

    1.22.14; 163.2

    which are from Kaksivan and Dirghatamas.

    The area and what Talageri thinks is happening includes:

    (the SohAn and HAro,
    northeastern tributaries of the Indus, in the extreme north of the
    Punjab and northwest of Kashmir) and SaryaNAvAn (a lake in the
    vicinity of these two rivers)

    In another place, the best Soma is said to be growing on the
    MUjavat mountains. The MUjavat tribes are identified (Atharvaveda
    V-XXII-5, 7, 8, 14) with the GandhArls.

    From Sarvarkar:

    The Vidyadharas, Apsaras,
    Yakshas, Rakshas, Gandharvas and Kinnaras were not all or
    altogether inimical to the Aryans as at times they are mentioned as
    being benevolent and good-natured folks.

    At no point can we define enemies by race/tribe/nation, at all points we can define them by attitude and way of life.

    Book Four focuses the Rbhus, which is complex with possibly two Visvakarmans. As said in Epic Mythology:

    In R 4, 40, 38, however, Visvakarman builds "the house of V a i n a t e y a " beside the R e d Sea.

    The Seven Seers are the most important group of Devarsis. Like the Devas they have their maids, Devarsikanyas, nymphs who welcome the Devarsis to heaven (13, 107, 130).

    In R 5, 20, 13, r u p a k a r t a s a V i s v a k r t m u s t b e ViSvakarman.

    As to the birth of Rbhus, from Epics:

    Prahlada appears as deciding a dispute of Virocana with a Muni (Sudhanvan).

    The sons of the other two ancestors of the human race vary. Angiras, to whom the genealogy of 1, 66, 5 gives but three sons, here has eight, Brhaspati, etc. to Sudhanvan (who is "even better than Virocana", with whom he converses, 5, 35, 5f.).

    and the page for Vibhu:

    They carried the luminous power of knowledge to this world, which knowledge pervaded the world as nectar. Ribhu or Ribhukshan was skillful at handling knowledge; Vibhu or Vibhawa was skillful in pervading and diffusing, and Vaja handled embodied plenitude with similar skill; all three dwelled in the solar-region and are considered to be the rays of the sun.

    Aitareya Brahmana has them mediating between Visvedevas and Savitar:

    'Let Vena here impel those born of Prishni'

    From Brahmanda Purana:

    Atharvan + Pathyā, the daughter of Manu = Dhrsni

    107. Sudhanvan was the son of Dhṛṣṇi. Ṛṣabha was the son of Sudhanvan. Rathakāras (? Charioteers) are remembered as the Devas. They are well renowned as Ṛbhus.

    Vena is a Bhargava, who appear to have this split in History:

    It must be noticed that Cyavana's family and Usanas-Sukra's family appear to have occupied different regions. Cyavana is
    always connected with the west of India, the country around the Gulf of Cambay, in or near Saryati's territory Anarta (Gujarat) as shown by the story of his marrying Sukanya, and by the statement that he performed austerities near the Vaidurya Mts
    (the west portion of the Satpara range) and the R. Narmada. Usanas-Sukra is connected rather with the central region of
    N. India.

    Significantly there is Vena in IV.58:

    trídhā hitám paṇíbhir guhyámānaṃ gávi devā́so ghṛtám ánv avindan
    índra ékaṃ sū́rya ékaṃ jajāna venā́d ékaṃ svadháyā níṣ ṭatakṣuḥ

    Usually the right questions were asked by Aurobindo:

    Quote "Dhanwan" in this name does not mean "bow" but the solid or desert field of Matter otherwise typified as the hill or rock out of which the waters and the rays are delivered.

    The Ribhus, it has been suggested, are rays of the Sun. And it is true that like Varuna, Mitra, Bhaga and Aryaman they are powers of the solar Light, the Truth. But their special character in the Veda is that they are artisans of Immortality. They are represented as human beings who have attained to the condition of godhead by power of knowledge and perfection in their works. Their function is to aid Indra in raising man towards the same state of divine light and bliss which they themselves have earned as their own divine privilege. The hymns addressed to them in the Veda are few and to the first glance exceedingly enigmatical; for they are full of certain figures and symbols always repeated. But once the principal clues of the Veda are known, they become on the contrary exceedingly clear and simple and present a coherent and interesting idea which sheds a clear light on the Vedic gospel of immortality.

    The Ribhus are powers of the Light who have descended into Matter and are there born as human faculties aspiring to become divine and immortal. In this character they are called children of Sudhanwan,1 a patronymic which is merely a parable of their birth from the full capacities of Matter touched by the luminous energy. But in their real nature they are descended from this luminous Energy and are sometimes so addressed, “Offspring of Indra, grandsons of luminous Force.” For Indra, the divine mind in man, is born out of luminous Force as is Agni out of pure Force, and from Indra the divine Mind spring the human aspirations after Immortality.

    For Twashtri, the Framer of things, has given man originally only a single bowl, the physical consciousness, the physical body in which to offer the delight of existence to the gods. The Ribhus, powers of luminous knowledge, take it as renewed and perfected by Twashtri’s later workings and build up in him from the material of the four planes three other bodies, vital, mental and the causal or ideal body.

    Because they have made this fourfold cup of bliss and enabled him thereby to live on the plane of the Truth-consciousness they are able to establish in the perfected human being the thrice seven ecstasies of the supreme existence poured into the mind, vitality and body. Each of these they can give perfectly by the full expression of its separate absolute ecstasy even in the combination of the whole.

    The Ribhus have power to support and contain all these floods of the delight of being in the human consciousness; and they are able to divide it in the perfection of their works among the manifested gods, to each god his sacrificial share. For such perfect division is the whole condition of the effective sacrifice, the perfect work.

    Such are the Ribhus and they are called to the human sacrifice to fashion for man the things of immortality even as they fashioned them for themselves.

    R.V. IV.36.6-9

    “He becomes full of plenitude and strength for the labour, he becomes a Rishi by power of self-expression, he becomes a hero and a smiter hard to pierce in the battles, he holds in himself increase of bliss and entire energy whom Vaja and Vibhwa, the Ribhus foster…. For you are seers and thinkers clear-discerning; as such with this thought of our soul we declare to you our knowledge. Do you in your knowledge moving about our thoughts fashion for us all human enjoyings,—luminous plenitude and fertilising force and supreme felicity. Here issue, here felicity, here a great energy of inspiration fashion for us in your delight. Give to us, O Ribhus, that richly-varied plenitude by which we shall awaken in our consciousness to things beyond ordinary men.”

    2. Dhanvan (धन्वन्, ‘desert’) is repeatedly mentioned in the Rigveda and later. Death from thirst in the desert was not rare, and the value of a spring in the desert was fully appreciated. The great desert east of the Sindhu (Indus) and the Śutudrī (Sutlej) is possibly referred to in one hymn of the Rigveda.

    It does have that meaning in Book Six, and, one of the side benefits we have seen so far, is that Indra sends streams to turn deserts into pastures. But this type of meaning does not seem to mix with a "su-" combination. I think Aurobindo is basically correct about matter, but this is not because of the term "sudhanva".

    If, perhaps, "Dasagva" had anything to do with "ten months' rite", that is like a prequel for Rbhus and the Year in IV.33:

    saṃvatsam ṛbhavo

    “Inasmuch as for a year the Ṛbhus preserved the (dead) cow, inasmuch as for a year they invested it with flesh, inasmuch as for a year they continued its beauty they obtained by their acts of immortality.”

    As for a year the Rbhus kept the Milch-cow, throughout a year fashioned and formed her body,
    And through a year's space still sustained her brightness, through these their labours they were made immortal.


    “The men, (the Ṛbhus), spoke the truth, for such (ladles) they made, and thereupon the Ṛbhus partook of that libation; Tvaṣṭā, beholding the four ladles, brilliant as day, was content.”

    men here literally being:


    The men spake truth and even so they acted: this Godlike way of theirs the Rbhus followed.

    satyam ūcur nara evā hi cakrur anu svadhām ṛbhavo jagmur etām |

    It has explained men who have already completed the Vedic process, Immortality. That is not what makes a Buddha, but it is involved.

    Vamadeva supports a pre-Vedic Vena, as well as Sudhanva and the Rbhus.

    This soon becomes problematic, not just in the two Visvakarmans but also Visvarupa, whether this involved mortal kings, or becomes a caste, or marks the Iron Age.

    Talageri just mentions:

    X.87.8, where Trita kills the three-headed dragon TriSiras

    But we get schizophrenia when Trisiras, author of X.8, honors Trita. It is Trita Aptya who slays Trisiras to free Tvastr's cows. The next line specifies that Indra slew Visvarupa, son of Tvastr.

    He co-authors the next hymn with:

    sindhudvīpo vāmbarīṣaḥ

    Bheṣajam = happiness driving away sin

    It then copies I.23.

    It is still a daily washing mantra.

    From general information:

    Gautama, husband of Ahalyā, who made Sūkta 58, Anuvaka 11, Maṇḍala 1 of Ṛgveda.

    father of Śatānanda

    Once this Gotama tired of thirst asked the Maruts for some water. The Maruts took a huge well to his side and poured water into a big pot.

    Vāmadeva was a hermit who had praised the Aśvinīdevas when he was in his mother’s womb. (Ṛgveda, Maṇḍala 1, Sūkta 119).

    People in IV.30


    Kulitara's son Sambara

    Susna was already exploited in IV.16:

    For Kutsa, with thy thousand, thou at day-break didst hurl down greedy Susna, foe of harvest.
    Quickly with Kutsa's friend destroy the Dasyus, and roll the chariot-wheel of Sarya near us.

    “For Kutsa, you have slain the unhappy Śuṣṇa and in the forepart of the day, attended by thousands (you have slain) Kuyava with the thunderbolt; you have swiftly destroyed the Dasyus, and you have cut them to pieces in the battle, with the wheel (of the chariot of) the sun.”

    No chariot. Just Sun Wheel:

    sūraś cakraṃ

    Talageri calls this mythical Kutsa and SuSNa, the
    demon of drought whose other epithet is kuyava, bad grain.

    all the gods, with you (for) their strength, have warred

    wherefore you have destroyed by day and by night

    for the sake of Kutsa and his allies, you have stolen, Indra, the (wheel of the car) of the sun.

    You have stolen: the text has muṣāya sūryam, you have stolen the sun

    In which (contests), Indra you have, for the sake of a mortal, discomfited the sun

    have slain the son of Danu

    So, we get chariots and wheels tossed in where that was not what was said. Then, in this controversial fight with Usas IV.30, when it gets to the relevant area, similarly to Vasistha's Indravisnu, Vamadeva invokes:


    you have slain the woman, the daughter of the sky, when meditating mischief.

    The daughter of the sky: the dawn, extinguished by the ascendancy of Indra throughout the day

    What he did next was:

    “You Indra, who are mighty, have enriched glorious dawn, the daughter of heaven.”

    uṣāsam indra sam piṇak ||


    “The terrified Uṣas descended from the broken wagon when the (showerer of benefits) had smashed it.”

    “Then her shattered wagon reposed (on the bank) of the Vipās' (river), and she departed from afar.”

    First of all, when the showerer smashed it:

    śiśnathad vṛṣā

    The word SiSnadeva (X.99.3) is found only once
    outside this hymn in VII.21.5, composed by
    VasiSTha MaitrAvaruNI.

    The word SiSnA by itself occurs only thrice in
    the Rigveda, once in a hymn by a VasiSTha,
    Vasukra Aindra (X.27.19), and once in a hymn
    by a VasiSTha associate, Kutsa ANgiras
    (1.105.8). The third occurence, in X.33.3, is in a
    hymn by a RSi whose family cannot be identified.

    Śiśna (शिश्न) or Śiṣṇa refers to an “erection”

    Śiśnatha (शिश्नथ):—[from śiśna] m. piercing, perforation, [Ṛg-veda]

    What was he doing in her car?

    He, the Bull, the Sprinkler.

    Now it is the car that really receives two lines:

    apoṣā anasaḥ sarat sampiṣṭād aha bibhyuṣī | ni yat sīṃ śiśnathad vṛṣā ||

    etad asyā anaḥ śaye susampiṣṭaṃ vipāśy ā | sasāra sīm parāvataḥ ||

    Two kinds of vehicles are already classified by Visvamitra with good advice:

    anasā rathena

    remain, rivers, lower than the axle (of the wheel) with your currents.

    This is what happened to her wagon, twice:



    “grind; knead; jam.”

    What happened to her initially was:

    durhaṇāyuvaṃ vadhīr

    Book Six has a very comparable phrase:

    ...the most powerful and indestructible Nirṛti destroy us...

    nirṛtir durhaṇā vadhīt

    Durhana (दुर्हन):—[dur-hana] (naḥ-nī-naṃ) a. Hard to kill

    Going with the motif that misfortune is "hard to kill", what Usas was doing was:

    Durhaṇāyu (दुर्हणायु).—[adjective] meditating evil.

    and then it is "vadhir" that would have a normal meaning of killing or striking. I can see how this might mean Indra kills Usas's bad thoughts, but, she is not dead or destroyed. After whatever happens, the result is that she is:


    Mahīyamāna (महीयमान) or Mahīyyamāna.—mfn.

    (-naḥ-nā-naṃ) To be worshipped, to be reverenced, to be treated with respect.

    And in the next line, Usas and Indra:

    “sam; together; together; saṃ.”


    “grind; knead; paste; crush; press out.”

    Then, a couple lines about her worn-out car, and she appears to go upriver.

    So, of course, higher up the river are more Devi presences such as Sulini and Hidimba, and Manali will eventually be on the far side of that. It happens that in Book Ten, a wagon is still the metaphor for sexual energy. In the hymn above, nothing says that Usas died or was personally destroyed, although it does appear she was struck forcefully and perhaps amazed and overwhelmed. The Veda does not quite track any "cult wars" or explain how some Bhrgus might have deviated, or what rival institutions may have come up, and so I don't think we can say that there was a separate "cult of Usas" that was kicked out by the Bharatas. Something about her left the Beas lowlands in Punjab, and, the mountainous source of this river is inseparable from devis and yoginis, which simply do not have historical markers in Rg Veda. We will see if there are more details in later Books.

    The emphasis here was on how far into Afghanistan the Bharata campaign advanced, and then we know that the western edge does not quite remain in Indian control forever. The Himalayan excursion that adds Nirmand and eventually Manali, does.

    Book Four has elevated Usas to a place of importance, if this was not established previously.

    According to a comment on Vasistha:

    Upon the paths: pathyājanānām: pathyā is taken as a nominative sing. agreeing with Uṣas

    Pathyā (पथ्या).—A daughter of Maru and wife of Atharva Angiras; father of 101 sons of whom were Ayāsya, Vāmadeva, Utathya, Uśiti, and Dhṛṣṇi.*

    * Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa III. 1. 103-5; Vāyu-purāṇa 65. 98.

    Of Bhārgava gotra.*

    * Vāyu-purāṇa 65. 96.

    Pathyā (पथ्या):—[from pathya > path] f. a path, way, road (with revatī, ‘the auspicious path’, personified as a deity of happiness and welfare)

    [feminine] pathyā path, way; [with] revatī & svasti the rich path (personif. as the goddess of fortune).

    Pāthya (पाथ्य):—[from pātha] mfn. ([probably]) being in the air, heavenly, [Ṛg-veda vi, 16, 15] (Name of a Ṛṣi, [Sāyaṇa])

    Sayana takes this for a male Rishi:

    pāthyo vṛṣā

    although he says for Usas:

    aṅgirastamā pathyā ajīgaḥ = gantritama padavir udgirati, she throws up the paths that are to be most traversed, i.e., prāṇinām vyavahārāya prakṣayati, she gives light for the transactions of living beings

    and much later, associated with Ghee:

    gā́ndharvīm pathyāā

    Races of human birth pay Agni worship, men who have sprung from Nahus' line adore him.
    Stablished in holy oil is Agni's pasture, on the Gandharva path of Law and Order.

    Then we see "Pathya" vanishes from the forthcoming Books Two, Five, and Eight, except for a single generic usage as "the paths".

    There is no such person given as a Vedic Rishi.

    Vasistha develops it somewhat, and if "Vajin" is a "follower of "Vaja", they must be Rbhus:

    Deep-skilled in Law eternal, deathless, Singers, O Vajins, help us in each fray for booty.
    Drink of this meath, he satisfied, be joyful: then go on paths which Gods are wont to travel.


    ROUSING the lands where men's Five Tribes are settled, Dawn hath disclosed the pathways of the people.

    As a generic word, it is always something beneficial, and as an epithet, appears most relevant to Vishnu and Usas.

    I would say with Vamadeva, Sanskrit theology is about eighty per cent complete. There is perhaps a small amount of core to be revealed, but most of Hinduism is an unnecessary deviation or alteration, with all kinds of memory lapses replaced by new substitutions. Yes, the Veda contains conundrums and contradictions, of a sort, the kind that lead us to ask how two things may be simultaneously true, or how death or destruction may just be a metaphor for certain natural phenomena. It does not really have nationalistic or sectarian conflicts, which are, I think, the by-product of non-Bharata, post-Vedic groups vying for power.

    Book Four is where we have to start looking at the accreted Books One and Nine. Pieces of them are of this age. Talageri does not think any Soma hymns besides perhaps Bhrgus are old, with two possible exceptions:

    IX.71 (ascribed to RSabha VaiSvAmitra of MaNDala III)

    IX.90 (ascribed to VasiSTha MaitrAvaruNI of MaNDala VII)

    There, we share a name with the founder of Jainism, which is:

    Ṛṣabha (ऋषभ) refers to the Gir breed of the Bullock (Bos Taurus)

    He may have overlooked:

    IX.31: Gotama Rahugana

    IX.37-38: Rahugana Angiras

    Gotama is notable in Book One because:

    The word TArkSya, outside this hymn, is found only
    in one verse by an ANgiras, Gotama RAhUgaNa

    Others that *may* have the age of the Gautamas:

    Madhucchandas upa-maNDala: 1.1-11. [Vaishvamitra]

    SunahSepa upa-maNDala: 1.24-30. [Vaishvamitra]

    ParASara upa-maNDala: 1.65-73. [Vasistha]

    KakSIvAn upa-maNDala: 1.116-126. [Dirghatamas]

    Parucchepa upa-maNDala: I.127-139. [Daivodasi]

    DIrghatamas upa-maNDala: 1.140-164. [Aucathya]

    But again he presumes Book Four is *centuries* after the beginning. We think the Old Books are more or less three generations, Divodasa, Sudas, and Sahadeva. There is of course time for Somaka to at least be born, and, there may be a couple centuries of legendary backstory *before* Divodasa, but the main events are probably a bit compressed compared to the way he writes.

    Somaka is clearly installed in IV.15, but it does not go on to any of his valorous deeds. Talageri thinks:

    ...there is a strong likelihood that the SurAdhas of
    1.100.17 is the same as the Somaka of IV. 15.7-10.

    Somaka merely makes a donation; nothing specifically connects him to the Sarayu or any other battles.

    Vishnu Purana says:

    Somaka; son of Saudāsa (also called Sahadeva).


    Vāyu-purāṇa 99. 207

    According to the Matsya and Brāhma P. the race of Ajamīḍha became extinct in the person of Sahadeva, but Ajamīḍha himself was reborn as Somaka, in order to continue his lineage, which was thence called the Somaka family.

    and this is pulled into pieces by the Mahabharata under the following Rubric:

    Somaka seems to be a name used to denote all the tribes of Panchalas. The word Somaka, means “the one who belonged to the Lunar Dynasty”.

    whereas Sahadeva:

    Name of a Ṛṣi (with the [patronymic] vārṣāgira), [Ṛg-veda i, 107]

    The insidious part is the Epic contains faint mention of the actual Vedic Sahadeva and Somaka, but then, these contemporaries of Book Four are then equated to the Kurus and Panchalas of, at most, late, and more likely, post Vedic composition.

    Looking at what the Veda probably intends as contemporary to Book Four, I.100 is by an apparently rather complicated king:

    vṛṣāgiro mahārājasya putrabhūtā vārṣāgirā ṛjrāśvāmbarīṣasahadeva bhayamānasurādhasaḥ

    Hymn 1.100 is ascribed to RjrASva and the VArSAgiras; but the
    hymn is clearly composed by a Kutsa RSi, as it is included in the
    Kutsa upa-maNDalas.

    Well, the Kutsa hymns are interrupted by two, Kasyapa Maricha and Rujrasva Varasirga. I would not say those are "clearly composed" by Kutsa.

    Sayana counters with the even more troubling:

    Ṛjrāśva was one of the sons of Vṛṣāgir; a she-wolf

    or in the definition:

    Ṛjraśva (ऋज्रश्व).—A muni (sage) celebrated in the Ṛgveda. Some details. (1) Ṛjrāśva was made blind by his father (Ṛgveda, 1st Maṇḍala, 16th Anuvāka, 112th Sūkta) (2) Ṛjrāśva was the son of the royal sage, Vṛṣāgīr. Once the donkey which is the vehicle of the Aśvinīdevas assumed the shape of a she-wolf and went to Ṛjrāśva. Ṛjrāsva gave it 100 sheep belonging to the people of the country and cut them to pieces and offered the same as food to the she-wolf. This plunder of the people’s wealth enraged Vṛṣāgīr. He cursed Ṛjrāśva and made him lose his eye-sight.

    Vrki is the she-wolf of I.117, which is consistent with the story, although it means the recipient of Rjrasva's donation is Kaksivan.

    Sayana equates him to Paravrj of II.13:

    ...the name of Ṛjraśva is understood, as the individual who was made to see; Sroṇa was the name of him who was made to walk; prāndha (blind) and śrona (lame) were epithets of Parāvṛj

    Talageri's reasoning that Suradhas is an epithet of Sudas is because:

    The word SurAdhas is found only twice in the Early MaNDalas
    and upa-maNDalas, in 111.33.12; 53.12, and these are the only two
    hymns in MaNDala III which deal with ViSvAmitras relationship with

    This potential clustering of the Bharatas has not considered the fact that the progenitor in this hymn is:

    Maharaja Vrsagir

    whose progeny or followers include Sahadeva and perhaps Sudas (or Suradhas), Rjrasva, Ambarisa, and Bhayamana.

    Gir is almost the same as "brahma".

    I.100 continues the value on:

    aṅgirobhir aṅgirastamo

    and the Bharatas' principle:

    Invoked by many, he goes to battle with his kinsmen, or with (followers) not of his kindred; he secures the (triumph) of those who trust him



    and also like Agastya:

    May he, of whom the excellent measure


    for the enrichment of Ṛjrāśva, and is recognized amongst human hosts (nāhuṣīṣu)

    meaning this five-fold group:

    the Vārṣāgirās, Ṛjrāśva and his companions, Ambariṣa, Sahadeva, Bhayamāna, and Surādhās


    attacked the Dasyus and the Śimyus

    This battle hymn contains the only reference (in 1.100.18)
    in the whole of the Rigveda outside the DASarAjna hymns
    (VI 1.18.5) to the Simyus, who figure as the enemies in both the

    and finally this, which I cannot see as Spitamas or Iranic adversaries:

    the thunderer then divided the fields with his white-complexioned friends


    sakhibhi svitnyebhiḥ: winds or Maruts; allusion to earthly friends or worshippers of Indra, who were white (śvitnya)

    When it gets to Yama's vesture and whether white is skin, clothes, and so on, I stop thinking the purpose of the hymn is entirely political symbols, like the thing with Usas.

    The upswing from a fairly balanced view of Indian History:

    The SHimyus are one of the enemy tribes in the Battle of the
    Ten Kings; the Dasyus are the priests of the enemy camp.

    The result of this “victory” is that the Kings of both sides survive
    the battle (as we shall see), that the division of territory remains
    the same, and that the chroniclers of both sides can give their
    own versions to claim victory. So, with the benefit of hindsight,
    the war in this case seems to have been pointless. In the Vedic
    account, it does indeed conclude the period of conflict. Bharata
    expansionism into Afghanistan seems to have been overstretched,
    and subsequent generations left it to the Iranians: “Good fences
    make good neighbours.” This way, the battle ushers in a period
    of peaceful coexistence forming the setting of books 2, 5 and

    A related Vedic hymn could be read as mentioning King
    Vishtaspa:”kimistashva istarashmireta ishanasastarusa rnjate
    nr na” (RV.I.122.13). Wilson, like the medieval commentator
    Sayana, identifies it as a name: “What can Istashva, (what
    can) Istarashmi, (what can) those who are now lords of the
    earth, achieve (with respect) to the leaders of men, the conquerors
    of their foes?”

    The Vedas contain numerous puns and
    metaphors, many of them unidentified or not understood. This
    passage may be one such not-yet-understood pun.

    Yet if we attempt to track the protaganist Vrsagira, we may draw options from the version written as word salad:


    King Vrsanasva

    for Book Five:

    VRSa JAna Atreya



    KaSyapa MArIca

    King Vrsagir

    Pratardana DaivodAsI, Indrapramati, VAsiSTha, VRSagaNa V.

    and this suggestion:

    Trtsu (Rksa)

    There is also Vrsagana Vasistha as a sub-composer in the Soma Book.

    "Vrsa" is such a proliferous term, it is nearly impossible to track and decide who may have it as a personal name. For example, commonly "might" as in IV.21:

    When sitting pondering in deep devotion in Ausija's abode they ply the press-stone,
    May he whose wrath is fierce, the mighty bearer, come as the house-lord's priest within our chambers.

    Surely the power of Bharvara the mighty for ever helpeth to support the singer;
    That which in Ausija's abode lies hidden, to come forth for delight and for devotion.

    Applied in certain constructions in IV.2:

    ṛṣva ṛjumuṣkā́n vṛ́ṣaṇaḥ

    You see "Rjrasva" by making a slight twist there.



    vṛ́ṣaṇa ṛjumuṣkā́

    Might/strength may also be Rju:

    Comparat. ṛjīyaṃs, and ved. also rajīyaṃs; superl. ṛjiṣṭha, and ved. also rajiṣṭha.

    Ṛjumuṣka (ऋजुमुष्क):—[=ṛju-muṣka] [from ṛju] mfn. having strong testicles

    Unfortunately for Book Three, "suradhas" is a word as in a verb, and where it might be mistaken for a name Suradhasa, this is where Sayana gives away the crux of the theological madness:

    The bharatas, or descendants of Bharata, are descendants of Viśvāmitra; Bharata is the son of Śakuntalā, the daughter of the sage, Visvāmitra (Mahābhārata Ādiparva)

    In other words, that is explicitly stated by the Mahabharata, whereas the Rg Veda does not even suggest it.

    So you are stuck with a Suradhas of I.100 that is not known from older books.

    It *possibly* could be Somaka.

    Vamadeva personally interacts with Somaka in IV.15, while the only action is taken by Sahadeva in I.100, where he is a secondary associate of Maharaja Vrsagir.

    It was more significant to link the Bharatas to Divodas, Sudas is not even mentioned in the spot where he easily belongs. No Emperor Bharata was included either.

    You might then think that Vrsagir could be Sudas.

    Ambarisa is also listed before Sahadeva, and the two after him may include Somaka or else have no recognition whatsoever.

    Talageri believes one of the Soma hymns should be correctly attributed to Rjrasva and Ambarisa Varasirga.

    This Ambarisa has, if anything, one descendant who is a co-author in Book Ten:

    Sindhudhvipa Ambarisa with Trisiras Tvastra.

    I am not sure Vak Ambhrini is named for Ambarisa, resembling more closely this phrase by Parucchepa:

    ambhṛṇam piśācim

    fearfully-roaring, piśāci

    So the most powerful people in Book Four are most likely given in Book One, Maharaja Vrsagir, Rjrasva, and Ambarisa.

    The only real act of the Bharatas is Somaka donating to Vamadeva.

    And, for purposes of simultaneity, this is what Vamadeva says in the womb in IV.26:

    I WAS aforetime Manu, I was Surya: I am the sage Kaksivan, holy singer.
    Kutsa the son of Arjuni I master. I am the sapient Usana behold me.

    I have destroyed the ninety and nine cities of Śambara, the hundredth I gave to be occupied by Divodāsa when I protected him, Atithigva, at his sacrifice.

    “May this bird, Maruts, be pre-eminent over (other) hawks, since with a wheelless car the swift-winged bore the Soma, accepted by the gods, to Manu.”

    He hasn't quite said his birth mother is a Celestial Nymph, but he may be the first talking embryo.

    Sounds like the same principle, i. e. a conscious re-birth of one who had succeeded in rites previously. And, he is the first to mention Kaksivan:

    The son born of Dīrghatamas to Bali's slave girl: Followed his father Gautama afterwards to Girivraja...

    Name of a renowned Ṛṣi (sometimes called Pajriya; he is the author of several hymns of the Ṛg-veda, and is fabled as a son of Uśij and Dīrgha-tamas)

    Girivraj, Magadha, "fenced by mountains" sounds exactly like the Rajgriha, etc., we have kept in Buddhism.

    Dirghatamas is not mentioned in any older books, although the stem "dirgha-" is frequently found. However, the stem "kaksi-" has only been used once, in VII.104:

    as a girth (encompasses) a horse

    So "kasksi-" is almost another way of saying "-vraj". Both have the connotation of a "girdle" or a "fence".

    Dirghatamas was blind; Paravrj was blind. Dirghatamas was just very nearly equated to Gotama, unless one means a physical and one a role-taking father. Dirghatamas has been styled as a son of Ucathya/Utathya, as well as of Usija, both remembered as "brother of Brhaspati".

    Uśij (उशिज्).—m. (-śik) 1. Fire. 2. Ghee or boiled butter.

    Usija is called the father of Kaksivat, as if that is the proper name, and of dirghatamas, or his condition due to being cursed.

    Utathya is called father of Bharadvaja, also called dirghatamas.

    Dirghatamas circulates back to Rjrasva, the difference being Rjrasva was not blind at birth. Vrsagir has no lore or context other than this parenting of Rjrasva.

    If all Varsagiras are sons of Vrsagir, and, Sahadeva is among them, he would have to be Sudas.

    After all, we seldom see the title "raja" actually used, and here is a Maharaja who otherwise comes from thin air and evidently leads the Bharatas.

    Vamadeva does make some extraordinary claims, and, upon inspection, the first verse of this breaks into two sayings in the past tense:

    I have been Manu and Sūrya

    I have befriended Kutsa, the son of Arjuni

    followed by two "now, I am" in exactly the way that reveals two levels of Sages:

    āhaṃ kakṣīvām̐ ṛṣir asmi vipraḥ

    'haṃ kavir uśanā

    A priest may simply listen and learn from a Rishi, who is capable of "seeing" a mantra that, as far as we know, has no script or any possible letters. They're not seeing it like they're reading it. And this is a special state when Agni enters the body.

    The Kavi lives in that.

    This is a certain "block" in that there were several eleven-syllable mantras, and we reach an area consisting of eight and fewer. It begins with a familiar ka/ko style including:

    ka ādityām̐ aditiṃ jyotir īṭṭe |

    and describing people he does not like:

    contract no friendship with the wealthy trader who offers not any libation

    revatā paṇinā

    Then he speaks on a personal basis, an "aham" mantra similar to Devi Suktam, that Sayana calls:

    the statement of the pantheistic basis for Vedānta

    The brief hymn finishes with what looks like a few typical Soma verses about a Hawk bringing it from the mountains, and in the next he goes back to himself:

    “Being still in the germ, I have known all the births of these divinities in their order; a hundred bodies of metal confined me, but as a hawk I came forth with speed.”

    “That embryo did not beguile me into satisfaction, but by the keen energy (of divine wisdom), I triumphed over it; the impeller of all, the sustainer of many, abandoned the foes (of knowledge), and, expanding, passed beyond the winds (of worldly troubles).”

    “When the hawk screamed (with exultation) on his descent from heaven, and (the guardians of the Soma) perceived that the Soma was (carried away) by it then, the archer of Kṛśānu, pursuing with the speed of thought, and stringing his bow, let fly an arrow against it.”

    “The straight-flying hawk carried off the Soma from above the vast heaven, as (the Aśvins carried off) Bhujyu from the region of Indra, and a falling feather from the middle of the bird dropped from him wounded in the conflict.”

    Sayana thinks he is taking birth by Yoga.

    Vamadeva has validated the embryonic state of consciousness for Indra's heroic deeds related to Soma.

    I would not anticipate that he suddenly switches from intra-uterine to aerial combat over the mountains of Afghanistan. It may have to do with the confinement of blissful consciousness due to embodiment and degradation of the pristine consciousness.

    If "Dasyu" is a type of priest, it would be the materialist atheist kind:

    you have made these Dasyus devoid of all (good qualities); you have made the races without rites abject


    This post will become too large because the previously unknown Vamadeva has thrown us into a realm of new information because of taking into consideration the chronology of Book One. Here is where I, at least, as a devotee of Sanskrit yogic texts, am able to see through it, because the contents themselves are not linear or chronological. They sort of are. It is a similar pattern as in for instance the twelfth-century Subhasita Samgraha or the Dharani Samgraha, or even still in Tibet like the Icons Worthwhile to See. Arranged more like a bunch of grapes.

    I will split this and segue' because it forms a particular argument that combines the archaelogical findings with the internal structure of the Rg Veda, that structure sounding now a bit different than anyone else seems to have noticed. Book One may not wind up with a post since we will probably just dissect it as we go.


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    Smile Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Book Five: Mandala One



    Mandala One is not necessarily the "next book", because it is multi-generational, multi-family. However, we have found its older parts are contemporaries of the older books, and, moreover, this information shapes the view coming from the previous. It does not have a main event or character of its own. I think it follows an intentional design, trying to show something, which seems fairly easy to me with a little review. Of course, this means things no one has noticed before. We will figure out what is authentic versus that which has been forgotten or altered.

    Argument from Mandala One through Mandala Four

    This is where we have run into something that doesn't really affect the chronology, but, may be giving a different picture on what happened in that time frame. It would concern what was happening within India, which goes with the questions I am asking, which are about the origin of Sanskrit mantras, which is not what Talageri was asking.

    At the same time, how a lot of what is in the Epics and Puranas is not even possible, if we take Veda as authoritative.

    It looks to me like this would shift Talageri's "relative chronology" forwards a bit further than he would like it, because in every case we are finding almost all the physical evidence closely matches what would be the story that is coming to life now.

    Then when we start looking at Book Four, not in isolation, but, with what he says would be simultaneous from Book One, we start having some issues such as whether the Bharatas are even involved any more. They may have become a legacy after Sudas.

    Nothing actually says that Sahadeva is Sudas's son. At least in Rg Veda; it does in Bhāgavata, Skandha 9, and some other Puranas.

    In Talageri's assessment, he is "the next known Bharata king" which does not mean "son". And so I suppose that does leave a question how far removed Vamadeva is from the older books. Here he is not exactly known as a Bharata; Sahadeva:

    Name of a Ṛṣi (with the [patronymic] vārṣāgira), [Ṛg-veda i, 107]

    That may be because of Sudas, himself, or, a generation is missing that we have not been told of.

    In fact, their relation to the Bharatas is such that:

    SRnjaya and DevavAta are referred to in verse 4 of the hymn.

    And then Talageri has actually taken the Puranas' word that Sahadeva is a descendant of Sudas. The Rg Veda does not say that. It says he is a Varsagira.

    There are not more Bharata kings to come back and explain this away.

    Vamadeva has only referred to those Bharatas as previous practitioners of the same tradition.

    Likewise, he refers to Divodasa as an event of the past, and then uses the same thing for something he, personally, did:

    I have bestowed the earth upon the Arya, and rain upon the man who brings oblation.
    I guided forth the loudly-roaring waters, and the Gods moved according to my pleasure.

    In the wild joy of Soma I demolished Sambara's forts, ninety-and-nine, together;
    And, utterly, the hundredth habitation, when helping Divodasa Atithigva.

    I really do not see any language that confirms any relation or lineage through these people. It confirms the relative chronological sequence.

    In the Rg Veda, Sahadeva is only called a Varsagira, and this is under the aegis of a Maharaja title.

    I do not agree with Talageri's assumption that this is a minor nick-naming of the Bharatas.

    Now, here, he has missed Vamadeva when tracing the camaraderie of Kutsa and Usana in later Vedic books. He thinks it goes back to this further origin. But this is the same place where he claims "Purukutsa" is an interpolation in VI.20:

    What time the thunder fell and Susna perished, all life's support from the great Druh was taken.
    Indra made room for his car-driver Kutsa who sate beside him, when he gained the sunlight.

    May we, O Indra, gain by thy new favour: so Purus laud thee, with their sacrifices,
    That thou hast wrecked seven autumn forts, their shelter, slain Dasa tribes and aided Purukutsa.

    Favouring Usana the son of Kavi, thou wast his ancient strengthener, O Indra.
    Thou gavest Navavastva. as a present, to the great father gavest back his grandson.

    This is highly suspect, because, it is in the line immediately following an anachronism, and, it states the relationship:


    and if this was struck, there would be no references to Usana before Vamadeva claims to be the Kavi Usana, not Usana, son of Kavi.

    And so the pairing of Kutsa and Usana in the rest of the books comes from Vamadeva. It does not say anything about ancient Bhrgus. Vamadeva personally claims to be a Rsi and a Kavi, neither of which are past tense or have antecedents.

    The way he says it sounds like he might be naming himself after a legend, and all we can say is that if VI.20 is invalid, nothing about it is in the Veda previously. We saw Vamadeva mentions Bhrgus in an unusual way, without any connection to himself or Usana.

    He may mean he was Usana in a previous life, or, stating his new or current name or condition.

    If Vasistha is a tale of Divine Birth, Vamadeva is one of Reincarnation.

    Blue Lotus and Lake Puskara "sound" like the embryonic state, and Vamadeva clearly is that.

    Both speak of something significant about the Year, the first Devic and related to Vishnu and the Adityas, the second, mortal and related to the Rbhus.

    In looking back for antecedents, here is a bonus from III.3:

    dhármāṇi sanátā

    Same as "Sanatana Dharma", which is what many "Hindus" would say they really practice.

    According to Talageri, "Gandhar" is a late word and no "gandharvas" should be present yet--Vamadeva skips this intermediate stage and names one personally:


    Krsanu is also in Kutsa's I.112, a Purukutsa redaction, with the comment:

    Kṛśānu are somapālas, vendors or providers of Soma; hasta-suhasta-kṛśānavaḥ, te vaḥ somakrayaṇaḥ (Taittirīya Saṃhitā 1.2.7)

    ...you defended Kṛśānu in battle...

    IV.27 is the archer taking a shot at the hawk.

    IV.57 reverts to a generic usage:

    phā́lā ví kṛṣantu bhū́miṃ

    let the shares turn up the ploughland

    I.126 has Dasaratha as a personal title and "krsanvato" somehow diffused in this phrase:

    Reeling in joy Kaksivan's sons and Pajra's have grounded the coursers decked with pearly trappings.

    I.155 is again the archer as in IV.27.

    I.35 seems to use it as Pearl on Savitr's chariot, with, perhaps, word plays on "krsna" for "dusky regions" that the sun brightens. This has a certain expression and idea:

    Surya Asura

    Three heavens there are; two Savitar' s, adjacent: in Yama's world is one, the home of heroes,
    As on a linch-pin, firm, rest things immortal: he who hath known it let him here declare it.

    So Krsanu is first definitely stated by Vamadeva, while he is in the womb, and it may mean "incarnating" moreso than Afghan sentries. This is a clue that "Dirghatamas Aucathya", composer of I.155, is *not* the archaic one, but, a later person picking up Vamadeva's term and using it in a way related to Vishnu Trivikrama. He tells us:

    A mortal man, when he beholds two steps of him who looks upon the light, is restless with amaze.
    But his third step doth no one venture to approach, no, nor the feathered birds of air who fly with wings.

    In this sense, Asura is much like the earth's axis of rotation, which is, of course, fixed or permanent. Relative to the stars, it is found, at some point, that the corresponding location Dhruva is simply a station that various constellations enter, while the Great Bear or Seven Rishis wanders, watches, or goes round them all.

    Now. If we are losing track of the Bharatas, and, Parucchepa Daivodasi is one, we might consider his upa-mandala. It starts after Kaksivan, the question being, are these old hymns, or a later Sage who has assumed the identity. Kaksivan's section ends with a hymn involving:

    Bhāvya = Svanaya

    Pajras, the kinsmen of Kakṣīvat

    where the last two lines are dialogue between Bhavya and Lomasa, who claims she has soft pubic hair:

    romaśā gandhārīṇām ivāvikā ||

    Either "Gandhar" is older than thought, or, this Kaksivan is a re-cycled name. So far, we surmise it is a Kaksivan who lived after Book Four, or else Vamadeva's claim to be Kaksivan is literal not figurative. This would almost certainly qualify him as the reincarnation of the original. Relatively speaking, this part of the text was almost certainly written well after Book Six. It may be an alias of Vamadeva himself, or, a follower.

    What started this was the simple fact that "Bharata" seems to have gotten mis-applied, but it was a real dynasty that was behind the very first books of the Rg Veda. The little it indicates about them includes having Pratardana Daivodasi in the Soma Book. If we are saying that Divodasa had become an old, that is, grandfather's generation and beyond, at the time of Book One, then in the ripple or bracketing view, one sees Parucchepa between the Dhirgatamases. That makes it like a module, or mini-Book Six, and we are just saying it is a later composition. I am not aware that any of these editorial remarks ever have anything to do with it being untrue. Just misleading in the objective timeline.

    Parucchepa writes in an old style that looks like Book Six. He refers to:

    The descendants of Bhṛgu

    and then puts this in the present tense:

    As you, sage Indra, come from afar to the succour of Uśanā, so do you come quickly, bearing all good things (to us) every day.

    He generally speaks in terms of:

    Divodāsebhiḥ = by us

    the descendants of Divodāsa

    He provides rites for the household couple:


    There is this unusual allusion:

    hear our supplications; verily the heaven is in sorrow like the earth, through fear, wielder of the thunderbolt, (of famine), as (formerly through fear of) Tvaṣṭā

    Tvaṣṭā: ghṛṇān-na bhīṣa: ghṛṇā is a name of Tvaṣṭā, or of blazing fire personified;

    Legend: the world being enveloped by thick darkness, the gods prayed to Agni, on which he burst forth suddenly from heaven and earth, in the shape of Tvaṣṭā, to the dismay of both regions


    Soma are mixed with curds; they are expressed and mixed with curds

    And he does some witnessing in his last hymn I.139:

    a new (hymn) has been addressed (by us) to the radiant navel

    vivasvati nābhā

    with the old word for night:


    and finally discloses his legendary background:

    “The ancient Dadhyañc, Aṅgiras, Priyamedha, Kaṇva, Atri, Manu, have known my birth; they who were of old and Manu have known (my progenitors); for of them is long life amongst the gods, and in them is our existence; for the sake of their nigh station, I adore (the gods) with praise; I worship Indra and Agni with praise.”

    In them is our existence: asmākam teṣu nābhayaḥ, in them are our 'navels'; explained as vital airs, in connection with life

    “Gods who are eleven in heaven; who are eleven on earth; and who are eleven dwelling with glory in mid-air; may you be pleased with our sacrifice.”

    Usana is part of "us"--does this mean Vamadeva?

    Also, what is significant there is that in most legends of a magical Manu, Priyamedha is the first physical man who multiplies generations.

    When you heard this hymn, you'd want to make families named for Kanva and Atri, which is exactly what happens.

    Vamadeva is simultaneously Rishi Kasksivan and Kavi Usana, meaning two different levels. We find Tvastr used as a form of raw energy in two worlds. This is really coming from the Rahu Gana. There may be some confusion when it comes to the descent of Usana.

    The name similarly appears in I.51, in the capacity of making Indra more intense, in language that says he may do it in the current moment.


    uśanā kāvyaḥ

    is in a Gotama hymn as a friend of Atharvan.

    Whereas "Kavi" is a poet, Kavya is poetry, not "son of", which would be this format:

    Kāvyāyana (काव्यायन):—[from kāvya] m. a [patronymic] [from] kāvya [gana]

    Gotama's Usana is certainly past tense, compared to which, another Usana, presumably Vamadeva, is present.

    Usana Kavya, the Vedic author, is therefor not clearly a descent from Kavi Bhargava, the Vedic author. The latter speaks of:

    kavir vidhartari

    Indra, the granter of wishes: vidhartari = vidhātarindre



    Hawk: cf. RV 4. 026.07

    This is how the hawk or bird "brings" Soma:

    suparṇo avyathir bharat ||

    vir bharat ||

    and part of what it does is:

    The purifier (the Soma) flows forth destroying the rākṣasas

    IX.89 does not give family information:


    VIII.84 has:

    uśanā kāvyaḥ

    The Soma book only gives one name to:


    and for his predecessor in IX.37:


    Nothing there says he is an Angiras.

    The rather strange name is confirmed by Gotama:

    avocāma rahūgaṇā agnaye madhumad vacaḥ | dyumnair abhi pra ṇonumaḥ ||

    “The descendants of Rāhugaṇa have recited sweet speeches to Agni; we praise him repeatedly with commendatory (hymns).”

    Otherwise, no one has attempted to question the rather strange Rahu, which is not observable.

    Rahu is a calculation.

    It, perhaps, may have once referred to an observed eclipse, before it meant the Node; you would have to observe many in order to calculate it, I would think. Most people don't see a single one.

    It's not present here because:

    Rahu dominates atharvana veda

    Frawley says:

    Svarbhanu in Vedic astronomy was a name for Rahu.

    Arya Akasha cites a later book:

    The Svarbhanu attestation we find in the RigVeda (V 40) presents a narrative of the Sun (Surya) being darkened via baleful magics wielded by the fiend, afore this situation is reversed by the sage Atri undertaking proper rites which enable the Sun to become ‘found’ again and cast off the gloom which has settled upon it. The noted modern Vedic commentator Manasataramgini has read this as Atri undertaking “astronomical observations” which then confirm the Sun’s eventual return from behind the Eclipse, and it is certainly plausible.

    ...Rahu prominently mentioned in AtharvaVeda XIX 9...

    Svarbhanu was later equated to Rahu:

    Note: This is the only occurrence of Svarbhānu in the Ṛgveda and there is no evidence that this demon was identified as graha.

    It is a pretty unusual name considering the original construction from verse five:

    yát tvā sūrya sva |rbhānus támasā́vidhyad āsuráḥ

    sva |rbhānor

    sva |rbhānor

    sva |rbhānus támasā́vidhyad āsuráḥ

    It is a way of Atri connecting himself to legendary Atri who stops the eclipse.

    So, this is backwards, Gotama Rahugana has got to be a more meaningful and powerful, as well as older, expression, even if "Rahu" cannot be discovered prior.

    In an appraisal of the internet, it is denied that Rahu is in Rg Veda and that Atharva Veda re-names Svarbhanu, who is only "approximately" in RV--although this passage is transferred rampantly to other literature. That is only from reading the Samhitas; obviously, Rahu is not only "in" the RV, but is a Gana at that--the only comparable one being Vrsagana Vasistha, attested in Book Nine. So in actual terms, Rahu Gana is one of the most powerful yet mysterious names that could be created at the time, being actual people rather than debatable deifications.

    Places to prod:

    One reference to astronomy in the Atharva Veda is found in book 19, hymn 7. The hymn is called "The Star" and describes the motions of various celestial bodies, including the stars, the Sun, the Moon and the planets, a prayer to the lunar mansions.

    Another reference is found in book 20, hymn 131, which describes the eclipses of the sun and the moon, and their effects on the earth. Also, in book 19, hymn 1, it describes the creation of the universe and the positions of the stars and planets.

    Of course:

    Books xix. and xx. are later additions

    Bloomfield's Samhita is only half online, so we are relegated to Griffith's translation. Book XIX after Sacrifice of Purusha goes to astronomical entities. Rahu is in Hymn IX, mostly just as the name.

    If you have a satellite, eclipses actually occur quite regularly, even total ones--but an earthling would have to travel to remote places to find them. Wherever you are:

    On average, any particular spot on Earth sees a total solar eclipse only once every 375 years...

    So even if we axe the calculated Node, and just take Rahu for an observed eclipse, it would be pretty difficult to cobble together a family based on observations in order to derive the calculations.

    A simpler explanation would be, for example, Gotama and his associates may have observed a total eclipse in Haryana, which upon discussion with others in Bihar or Afghanistan may have revealed they only saw a partial one. Then you would have a kind of elect, the "True Rahu Seeers" or something like that.

    The more mystical explanation is that Sun Gazing Yoga can enable you to see the solar corona at will.

    The further implication is that if Rahu meant anything at all, there is a fair chance that some or all of the Naksatras had been set up, there could be a depth of field to observational astronomy that simply isn't written in the Rg Veda because it is a songbook.

    With others involved in Book One around this time, we will have to decide how their names are crafted from:

    1) Śepa (शेप):—m. (said to be [from] √1. śī, and connected with śiva and √śvi) the male organ, penis, [Ṛg-veda; Atharva-veda; Vājasaneyi-saṃhitā; Taittirīya-saṃhitā]

    Śepa (शेप).—śepha śepha, and sepha sepha, m. The penis.

    2) a tail (cf. paru-cchepa, śu-naḥ-śepa), [Ṛg-veda]

    The first one is too weird if we are on our own for:


    The second, Suna, backtracks to something tangible:

    Śvan (श्वन्) in the Rigveda and later is the word for ‘dog’, the feminine being Śunī. The dog was a tame animal, and used to guard the house from thieves or other intruders. He was also employed in hunting the boar (varāha-yu), but was no match for the lion. A hundred dogs are mentioned as a gift in a Dānastuti (‘Praise of Gifts’) in a Vālakhilya hymn. Elsewhere the dog is regarded as unfit for sacrifice, as being unclean, and is driven away from the sacrifice.

    Divodasa and Parucchepa are footnotes on a page for what should probably be called "Divodasa II". It's disappointing considering that the only reason we can speak of original Divodas is because countless generations of devotees spent their lives memorizing exactly what is in the Veda, and now we just push paper around and assert that any "new praise" is either the same as the Vedic, or actually superior to it, while basically having either no or the wrong idea about it.

    If it is possible for Rahu to have any meaning at all, then it is not hard to say Tvastr is Citra, Varuna is Simsumara or it is a composite of deities, Brahma's Heart is in Auriga...again, yes, in context, there must have been a knowledge of observational astronomy for centuries, and it becomes time for a "new clock" for the Pole Star, Dhruva, and for the Equinox/Solstice shifting.

    Vedanga Jyotisa gives the Five Year Vedic Yuga based on Rain.

    Moreover, compared to Western Esoteric Astrology which may contend that the galactic core is the Central Spiritual Sun, the Veda hates this, Mula Naksatra is the least favorable direction and akin to the experience:

    Fall in a Well

    and so it is very strongly and vehemently teaching the opposite.

    If you look at Book One at face value, it begins with Vaishvamitras, to whom Sunashepa becomes adopted, and Parucchepa is quite further along, so if you thought that basic thing was the structure of civilization, Bharatas are descended from Vaishvamitras. I do not think it is designed that way, and if it was remotely close, then it is closer to backwards.

    I would guess the first eleven hymns are there as a tribute, and then it is a Kanva design following Medhatithi "generous patron". Right after him is Sunashepa.

    The rest of the Book scintillates, goes through a fairly full variety that would appear to involve close associates out to distant legendary figures and several families. Composers is a pretty good bird's eye view. The Rg Veda is totally not what it appears to be, Book One is definitely not the "first book", although it is probably the first "intentional design" in an Eight Mandala Rg Veda compiled during the Kanvas' period.

    Because this Medhatithi Kanva is there, the thing cannot have been collected for centuries after Vamadeva.

    As close contemporaries of Book Four, there would be Gotama, Nodhas, and Parasara.

    The mythical Kutsa Angiras frames individual hymns by Kasyapa and Rjrasva.

    Then the remainder are theoretically older to far older.

    Talageri suggests the actual hymns and their authors are not, that they are enacting historically-known characters such as Agastya. It is not original Agastya material that has been passed down. It is Agastya's reputation a few generations later used as a source of inspiration. Most likely by a Rishi in his family, maybe even using the same personal name, perhaps even being a reincarnation, but not old hymns by original Agastya of Book Seven.

    In that sense, we can disregard the 100s of Mandala One after those two single-hymn authors.

    That is strictly my own opinion. I think that Kanva is on the receiving end of something that was tangibly launched probably by Gotama, which resulted in Rjrasva and the Varsagiras becoming the dominant warriors, and a type of spiritual revival through Kasyapa. Exactly the Manu force and from Manali.

    As for the pattern:

    it is significant that the first four RSis of both MaNDala
    I as well as MaNDala IX are, in the same order, Madhucchandas
    (with his son JetA in MaNDala I), MedhAtithi, SunahSepa and

    and these are most likely the older or authentic part because:

    ...the Madhucchandas, SunahSepa and ParASara upa-maNDalas do not
    refer to any composer from any other MaNDala.

    But then for example, Dirghatamas of Book One makes a reference to MaNDala IV:
    PurumILha (1.151.2).

    So, it is not actually written by the figure it is named for, who would have been considerably prior to Book Four.

    For Gotama and Nodhas, they only speak of BharadvAja (1.59.7).

    So for the most part, the things that look equivalent to Books Three and Four, are. That pretty much locks down Parasara, who is crucial for the lineage of Vyasa. He is Vasistha's grandson, and no anachronism appears to violate this. There is no way he is anywhere near the stage of "compiling the Rg Veda" as Ten Mandalas. It may be there was a Vyasa who compiled a smaller number (blieved to be six, then eight). But it's not possible to work in the way the Epics say.

    He is the only Vasistha, sandwiched between the Gotamas.

    Rjrasva is placed in the "perfect" number 100, and turns out in a certain sense to be the main actor in Book Four, and I think you have to conclude that makes it a Varsagira Book.

    You don't have to be rude to the Bharatas, or wipe their memory, but the Veda does say Sahadeva Varsagira, which means the Puranas are contradicting it. The Vedic lack of information about the descent of Sudas is probably because they lost importance.

    The Bharata character in Book One is not a Saudas or anything like that, he is either the son of Divodas, or, Bharata has already been replaced in the dynasty name. It is, of course, possible to heavily scrutinize the Bharata or Daivodasi material to see if it might be a passed-down original. We cannot categorically deny everything because of the generalization. Those are different because, for one thing, they are not ancient sage names that could possibly be copied. It is their own names as sons of Divodasa. That does not mean someone could not have done it later. But, if it is to be considered that most of the Bhrgus actually *are* passed-down originals, the same exception may be true for the Bharatas and perhaps a few others.

    Sayana describes how technical Parucchepa is:

    Atyaṣṭi is a stanza of four lines, and has 68 syllables.

    In this sūkta, the hymns are arranged in three verses and the number of syllables vary from 57 to 70, the average being 65 to 67.

    In his final piece enumerating his "ancient history", he may be putting the Gir in Vrsagir:

    gīrbhir girvāhaḥ

    ā name girendrāgnī ā name girā ||

    In other words, I personally had never noticed this as even being a word, until it has been drawn to my attention, here.

    Comparatively, Sunashepa's very first word is:


    “Of whom, or of which divinity of the immortals, shall we invoke the auspicious name? who will give us to the great Aditi that I may again behold my father and my mother.”

    It is considered the only "Creation Hymn" appearing outside of the standard set (primarily by the Prajapatis).

    He is easy because almost everything is eight syllables. I suppose this is a normal expression:


    which just had no notice before.

    It turns out he knows Twelve Months:

    véda māsó dhṛtávrato
    duvā́daša prajā́vataḥ

    he uses this, which has been debated as to whether the South Node or not:


    Sunashepa ends a hymn with a phrase that escaped attention:

    vṛkṣi devāḥ

    Vṛkṣā (वृक्षा).—Sacred as houses for the primitive man and supplied him with honey, fruits and clothing; Gandharvas live in them; these kalpavṛkṣās deteriorated and man who took to caves began to build houses on the model furnished by the trees with the upward, downward and crosswise trees; milked the cow-earth; the essence was tender leaves; the vessel was of pālāśa wood and the plakṣa tree acted as the calf.

    Vṛkṣa (वृक्ष) is the ordinary term for ‘tree’ in the Rigveda and later. In the Atharvaveda it denotes the coffin made from a tree, no doubt by hollowing it out.

    I.28 is one of the first places, on someone else's lead, we found a likely sexual symbolism.

    Likewise, this is thought of as a metaphor for death (never awakening):

    sasantu tyā arātayo bodhantu śūra rātayaḥ |

    May those who are our enemies, slumber, and those, O hero, who are our friends, be awake

    Interestingly, you have the person liberated from sin who nevertheless proceeds to express sex and killing, it looks like.

    That is like a point of a non-point. These things, physically, are not what determines sin or not.

    His final hymn was speaking to the Aswins:

    High on the forehead of the Bull one chariot wheel ye ever keep,
    The other round the sky revolves.

    And ends this way on Usas:

    kás ta uṣaḥ kadhapriye bhujé márto amartye
    káṃ nakṣase vibhāvari

    tváṃ tyébhir ā́ gahi vā́jebhir duhitar divaḥ
    asmé rayíṃ ní dhāraya

    What mortal, O immortal Dawn, enjoyeth thee? Where lovest thou?
    To whom, O radiant, dost thou go?

    Hither, O Daughter of the Sky, come thou with these thy strengthenings,
    And send thou riches down to us.

    Sunashepa as the survivor of Human Sacrifice did so in a way that resembles Crucifixion, aside from the fact that he simply walked away from The Post after having been given a tour de force of pantheism. He does this, combined with likely the first Creation story and some other primal symbolism, and Varuna Asura. So he is a very spiritually meaningful individual.

    It makes sense, to me, to see Book One arranged from the view of Medhatithi Kanva. He iterates the era of Visvamitra's son, Sunashepa, and then Vasistha's grandson, Parasara Shaktya. Then the appearance of single-hymn authors at 99 and 100 is very telling. Kasyapa and Rjrasva Varsagira. After them come only ancient legendary figures if we take Parucchepa simply as the son of Divodas. It is possible, but not necessary, to take such names as "distant descendant of", while it is not impossible that Parucchepa personally did compose those hymns, which would not really have to "drift" for that long before being "recorded" in this stuff the Kanvas have.

    As to whether the Vedic story starting at Sutlej has a significant progress important internally to India and Sanskrit lore, it's not really an idea of mine. First there was a Nirmand and then eventually a Manali. This seems physically correct.

    My idea, or thesis, is that the new "Manali system" is in the Rg Veda as Kasyapa transferring it externally, particularly to Dwarka I.

    Medhatithi would come in as an important donor to this system.

    Implicitly, he is a follower of Kanva Ghaura, who in turn would be from Ghora Angiras. Talageri uses this to stack the chronology but I am not sure why he says this:

    ViSvAmitra, whose junior associate is
    Ghora ANgiras

    The handmade Composers list credits III.36 to Visvamitra and Ghora. One might attempt to say he merely quoted Ghora from the past, but then there is Kanva Ghaura, who would therefor approximately be the same era as Sunashepa or Visvamitra's sons/direct followers.

    The published Anukramani I suspect might be damaged, because it does give most of Book Three to Gopavana, but it seems to kick in on these small authorship changes. In this case we find a single verse attributed to Ghora:

    “Opulent Indra, receiver of the spiritless Soma, give to us riches in universally desired quantity; grant us to live a hundred years; bestow upon us, Indra with the handsome chin, numerous posterity.”

    Does that mean he was ninety when he said it? Or it was a folk saying from pre-Vedic times? I don't know, but, I would question what type of "associate" this really indicates.

    The stronger case that he was a current person influential in any way, would mean that Kanva would be approximately the generation of Visvamitra's grandsons. Medhatithi would be next.

    There is just the one single line as the antecedent for a family which has its own Book Eight, and almost certainly had an Eight Book Rg Veda in which they also had massive influence on Book One and the Grtasamadas are not in it; neither is Atri.

    My guess it that Atri has more to do with expansion, most likely Dwarka and Orissa. Not necessarily military conquests; the concurrent notion is that education, craftsmanship, etc., such as the Vedangas, would have been as important as priesthood. That would mean the point there wasn't any caste. Harmonious growth was the sole motive. Kanva was behind it and Atris were the ones doing it. Half of the Sages taking ancient names is nothing new. Kasyapa, which is a new name, and Manali, happen to represent this actual time period, rather than the dawn of humanity or a Great Flood.

    The Rg Veda is not necessary to discuss or even have an elaborate system of Naksatras. To even be recorded as Vedanga Jyotish means that there must have been a knowledge base for a while.

    The Vedic Yuga is five years, and, most likely the Day of a Deva is as given for the Solstice, Uttarayana, in Surya Siddhanta:

    According to the Hindu tradition the six month period of Uttarayana is equivalent to a single day of the Gods, while the six month period of Dakshinayana is equal to a single night of the Gods. Thus a year of twelve months is single day of the Gods.

    And, before anyone got confused about how a "Sign" is fixed in space while stars rotate, there was certainly an understanding not of a whole observed Great Year, but the Ages of Precession:

    Yavana Jataka (from 191 AD)

    Chapter 79
    V. 30. One should find that the northern course of the Sun begins at the beginning of Capricorn...

    From Brihat Samhita (500 AD):

    “There was indeed a time when Dakshinayana began from the Middle of Aslesha and Uttarayana from the commencement of Dhanishta. For it has been stated so in ancient works.

    – a time at least 2000 years earlier (approximately).

    At present, Dakshinayana (Southern Course – first day of Summer) starts from the beginning of Cancer and the other (Northern Course – Uttarayana – first day of Winter) from the initial point of Capricorn. This actual fact, which goes against the old statement can be verified by direct observation.”

    Currently, Uttarayana happens when the Sun is in the middle of Mula (6:40 Sagittarius) Dakshinayan happens at 0 Ardra (6:40 Gemini).

    So, we keep coming to Dhanistha as the first recorded moment, which does not answer how many Naksatras previously did man know there was such a thing or observe the Solstice. Because there was long-distance travel and maritime navigation since around 3,000 B. C. E., there is clear motive for such discussions.

    There are a lot of Naksatras, and it would be really difficult to comb the Rg Veda for every single "Revati" trying to find any stellar clues, and so on for the rest. There is a negative expectation towards finding much substantial. Like most of the other material, it seems to be "mentioned" at least partially in this same principle:

    Rigveda has reference to a few Nakshatra (lunar asterisms or groups of stars). They are Ashwayujau, Pushya, Magha, and Phalguni.

    Rigveda refers to Sun and Moon moving during the year with reference to the Nakshatras.

    This is thought to be a reference to the astronomical fact that during its journey across the skies, Jupiter appears to be so close to the star Pushya that they are indistinguishable from each other. Then, as it moves away from the conjunction, it is said to have been “born” from Pushya.

    Sayana believes Sunashepa speaks of Varuna governing the night sky Rksas and Naksatras two verses before his personal self-liberation by Varuna.

    And then it is somewhat later that you do see the whole Naksatra assembly in Atharva Veda, where each also corresponds with a Sage and Deva. I'm going to copy this, and when we see what is in it, we can go back through the post in terms of "a new clock":

    kR^ittika |agnivesha |agni
    rohini |anurohI |prajapati
    mR^igshiras |shvetAyI |soma and maruts
    Ardra |bhArgava |rudra
    punarvasu |vAtsyAyana |aditI
    pushya |bharadvAja |bR^ihaspati
    Alshlesha |jatukarNa |ahi
    magha |vyAghrapada |pitarah
    purva-phalguni |parAshra |bhaga
    uttara-phalguni |upashiva | aryama
    hasta |mAnDvaya | savitA
    chitra |gotama | tvashTa
    svati |kauNdiNya | vAyu
    vishAkhA |kapi | indrAgni
    anurAdhA |maitreya | mitra
    jyeshTha |kaushika | indra
    mUla |kutsa | NirR^iti
    purva-ashADhA |harita | ApaH
    uttara-ashADhA |kashyapa | vishvedevAH
    abhijit |shaunaka | brahmA
    shroNa |atri | vishhNu
    shravishTha |garga | vasavaH
    shatabhishak |dakshAyaNa | indrAvarunA
    pUrva-proshThapadA |vatsa | aja-ekapAda
    uttara-proshThapadA |agastya | ahirbudhnya
    revatI |shA~nkyAyana | pUshA
    ashvayuja |kAtyAyana | ashvinau
    bharanI |R^ishi-patnya| yama

    We can't conclude this proves that Atharvan or the Atharvans had this complete system prior to the Rg Veda, in fact, some of these are only AV Sages and there is a deity named Brahma, along with "son of Sunaka". It is interesting that "combined Indras" are listed individually. It is perhaps suggestive that the Naksatra set is ancient. It does not even have all the main Rg Veda composers, such as Visvammitra and Vasistha, or Kanva. It is not about Twelve Adityas, it is the moon's motion in the context of the actual belt of stars, and not signs that have to be projected and defined.

    We are forced to concede that the beginning of the Years--Samvatsaras and Ages--Yugas was at a fixed moment probably at least 1,300 and probably more like 1,800 B. C. E., and Astrology in India is like a pearl strand of the moon's days/phases since then. Impervious to what month or year you call it. So, for instance, there may have been something as simple as Maharaja Vrsagira really did have a vast, peaceful, progressive nation, and even if something like Vrsagir Samvatsara was begun, shortly after he is gone, someone would try to replace it.

    If the above represents the Rg Vedic Rishis, we found that Bharadvaja is "related to night", and Gotama is plausibly the inspiration for Vedanga Jyotir, or, that is, marking or explaining the year and, I suppose, an evolving accumulation of astronomical observances. This takes dedication because it is unusual for that many ancient peoples to have done much at night. We might say Varuna took a clock or calendar from Garhial, and Tvastr reset it. The future system flowed through Kasyapa, which is evident here. If Dwarka I was, in fact, its main investment, then the loss of Vedic expertise may be understandable.

    For the "structure" of Mandala One, ignoring everything past 100 as legacy, the "current/recent" clans look like raindrops making ripple patterns:

    Medhatithi bracketed by Visvamitra's son Madhucchandas and adopted son Sunashepa

    Kanvas bracketed by Angirases

    Parasara bracketed by Gotamas bracketed by Angirases

    followed by the single-hymn authors:

    Kasyapa Marica and Rjrasva Varasirga

    The first one:

    kaśyapo marīciputraḥ

    is spelled out more thoroughly in VIII.29:

    manurvaivasvataḥ kaśyapo vā mārīcaḥ

    and as a family peculiarly attenuated to Soma, he is in:

    three areas in Book Nine.

    Nine is similarly structured to One, but even more intricately.

    In some cases I have seen that the "-putra" convention means "nation of". And we may notice Sage Marica or Marici is not Vedic. He is not one of the Seven Sages. If he is mentioned at all, he has not come up as important. The first reaction would be, well, he is probably non-Arya, such as an Ikshvaku priest.

    I am not sure you would say the composer of 100 is Rjrasva:

    vṛṣāgiro mahārājasya putrabhūtā vārṣāgirā ṛjrāśvāmbarīṣasahadeva bhayamānasurādhasaḥ

    Line seventeen says that it is Rjrasva and his companions doing the praise, not their father.

    So far, in the Rg Veda Samhita, the text, I have not seen any kind of "maharaja". We see "samrat" and a few other things intended as "universal emperor" in terms of the gods, but not someone who steps in from nowhere as a king with at least five sons or allies. When he does, the "samrat" in his first line is:

    vṛṣā vṛṣṇyebhiḥ

    He does not have a last name, and does not seem to be spoken about anywhere else whatsoever.

    I do not know if that presumes he is a Bharata, or, someone who deleted their parental lineage as if they used to be a pauper. Can't say. I am pretty sure that we only discover a "maharaja" by looking at the Anukramani in its original publication. I guess that is too obscure for anyone to have noticed.

    The objective view we get from authors like Talageri would tell us the kings and battles are important, but, starting from Hariyupia, the Veda to me at least, is telling the battle is just an opportunity to meet Magic Indra. And so when we get here, the "maharajah" is mainly a vehicle for whatever Kasyapa is doing, which has more to do with inside India and the development of mantras through the minds of these Sages.

    This is another "putra" which may be saying "nations of Varsagiras".

    Here, this one is perhaps similar to "Emperor Bharata", symbolic. That is the conclusion we frequently seem to be drawing about famous persons. Nobody there. The "father" of the Varsagiras or "the maharaja" may just be symbolic for Indra.

    There would still not be anything that names Sahadeva as a Bharata.

    The only reason he is more than only a name on a list is because Vamadeva receives donation from his son Somaka.

    The only ways I know of to track whatever happened here would be Rjrasva and Ambarisa.

    My personal hunch is that Medhatithi purposefully designed Book One to do the same thing as Mahabharata and other texts claim, to trace the generations of Visvamitra.

    So we open this like an umbrella, and, can add in whoever was apparently living at the same time, according to the Rg Veda, and a careful examination of the fact that many hymns are not physically by their original namesakes. After Hymn 100, Book One is myth or legend in terms of who appears to be writing it. 1-100 is Medhatithi recalling his and prior generations of normal people.

    To start, we would find:

    Visvamitra, Ghora Angiras, Jamadagni Bhargava, Vasistha, Agastya, King Sudas and other Daivodasis (Parucchepa, Pratardana)

    Visvamitra's "sons":

    Madhucchandas, Sunashepa, Kata and Prajapati Visvamitra, Kanva Ghaura, Gotama Rahugana, Sahadeva, Shaktya Vasistha, Suhotra Bharadvaj, Ananata Paruchhepi, Trivrsna, Parasurama


    Aghamarsana Madhucchandas, Samvarana Prajapatya (Vaishvamitra), Vamadeva Gautama, Somaka, Nodhas Gautama, Purukutsa, Parasara Shaktya, Purumilha and Ajamilha Sauhotra, Trayaruna, Vrsna, Trasadasyu, Atri Bhauma, Sobhari Kanva

    It is significant, because, removing the interpolations, we are left with a certain template.

    Trasadasyu is referred to as a patron and contemporary by only
    three RSis:

    Atri Bhauma (V.27.3)

    SamvaraNa PrAjApatya (V.33.8)

    Sobhari KANva (VIII.19.32)

    Unless it can be argued that Samvarana is *not* effectively a grandson of Visvamitra, then that layer of Book Five cannot be all that late. It's Rishis, so, a "generation" might be thirty or forty years, which makes it plausible they could be slightly after Vamadeva, but I can't see why it would be a huge jump.

    Then it almost looks like Book Five begins with Varsagiras as we see the name "Vrsa Jana", but this is a misprint. What should be given as the composer of V.2:

    kumāra ātreyo vṛṣo vā jāra ubhau vā

    Sayana asserts this three-verse hymn refers to a particular commentary.

    Legend from Śāṭyāyana Brāhmaṇa: Rājā Trayaruṇa, the son of Trivṛṣṇa, of the lineage of Ikṣvākus had Vṛṣa, son of Jāra, as his purohit.

    When the Rājā and his purohit went out in the same chariot, the latter driving. The chariot ran over a brāhmaṇa boy who was lying on the road and killed the boy. A dispute arose as to who was the murderer; Rājā accused the purohit because the latter was the driver; the purohit retorted that the chariot-owner was the Rājā and hence the latter became responsible. The dispute was referred to an assembly of Ikṣvākus, who decided that the purohit was the murderer. Vṛṣa restored the boy to life by the prayer hence-forth called the Varṣa-sāman. Offended by the biased verdict of the Ikṣvākus, the fire ceased to perform its functions in the dwellings of the ikṣvākus; thus cooking of food ceased in the ikṣvāku households. The ikṣvākus respectfully invoked the presence of the ṛṣi; using the same mantra, the ṛṣi prayed that the energy of fire be restored to them; this energy or activity is designated by the unusual term: haras = agner haras. So singing, the Ṛṣi, having seen distinctly the brahmanicide became the wife of king Trasadasyu, in the garb of a piśācī; she, having taken the Haras away from the fire-chamber, was concealing it in her regal clothing (kaśipau) he, having propitiated that Haras by the Varṣa Sāma, reunited it with Agni, upon which the offices of fire, in cooking and the like, were discharged as before.

    Obviously, that implies that Vrsagira was an Iksvaku priest.

    Then, we get to Trasadasyu, at what seems to me to be a much closer time period after Sudas.

    Usually we are not using Brahmanas to over-write the Veda, but here we have as the composer and subject of V.27:

    trayaruṇastraivṛṣṇastrasadasyuśca paurukutsa aśvamedhaśca bhārato'virvā

    Tryaruṇa, the son of Trivṛṣṇa

    Trayaruna Tri Vrsna, and Trasadasyu Paurukutsa.

    The implication of the verses is that Trayaruna *has* given Atri donations, and *now* Trasadasyu does the same.

    In terms that these are two different families that are simultaneous, not a continuous strand.

    Trasadasyu is also called Paurukutsa in:

    V. 33.8 (by Samvarana)

    and his father also happened to get mentioned.

    Purukutsa: I. 63.7; 112.7; 174.2

    The first of those falls in the range of what we think are the tangible, current people, Nodhas Gautama:

    This aid of thine, O Godlike One, was ever to be implored in deeds of might in combat.
    Warring for Purukutsa thou, O Indra, Thunder-armed! breakest down the seven castles;

    There is this untranslated bit from Parasara Shaktya:

    vi rāya aurṇod duraḥ purukṣuḥ pipeśa nākaṃ stṛbhir damūnāḥ ||

    Then we find him again from those whom we think are probably later re-namings from older people, such as Kutsa Angiras:

    Wherewith ye gave Sucanti wealth and happy home, and made the fiery pit friendly for Atri's sake;
    Wherewith ye guarded Purukutsa, Prsnigu, -- Come hither unto us, O Asvin;, with those aids.

    Agastya Maitravaruna:

    Indra, thou humbledst tribes that spake with insult by breaking down seven autumn forts, their refuge.
    Thou stirredst, Blameless! billowy floods, and gavest his foe a prey to youthful Purukutsa.

    For the rest of the Rg Veda, we cannot be beguiled by names, because a lot of it is written as if it would be something from the mists, but it is New Praise, which is half of the point. For example this last one is considered someone in the Agastya lineage. As to whether these are intended to represent reincarnations, I am not sure the Veda says that. Either way, it is a different incarnation of someone period-appropriate for Purukutsa.

    At this point we should probably admit:

    I.100 is the accession of Ikshvaku priests in a major way.

    This means that Mandhata drove the Dasyus into Afghanistan, and then the Solar Dynasty conquered Afghanistan.

    They are never called Aryas.

    Again, no, I don't see future Bharatas in the rest of the Rg Veda, to the point I am not sure there is anything after Sudas.

    The name listed above suggests that, upon performing Asvamedha, Trasadasyu became like the Bharatas, in the way that Bharadvajas are like night. It may mean he was totally accepted into the clan, or, it may mean the horse covered a vast area. I am not exactly sure, but, it seems like a merging of some sort.

    This may suggest the Purus were "rescued". Twice.

    It may be the Ikshvakus are literally life-savers, minus the brief era of Divodasa and Sudas.

    Talageri's analysis suggests that some descendants of Mandhata lived in the northwest, others in Bihar, which is why Ramayana shows very different lineages, because it only knows the eastern side. Appropriately enough, the Old Books specifically state that Bihar was taken over. This would have been outside the borders of the eastern Iksvakus. So, the Bharatas, in a sense, were perhaps returning the favor.

    Trivrsna is thoroughly neglected.

    The same portion is copied in Original Sanskrit which also quotes the interpolation of Trasadasyu, son of Durgaha, and makes the suggestion:

    The follow¬
    ing hymns, also, are said by tradition to have had the undermentioned
    kings for their rishis, viz.: vi. 15, Vitahavya (or Bharadvaja); x. 9,
    Sindhudvipa, son of Ambarisha (or Trisiras, son of Tvashtri); x. 75,
    Sindhuksit, son of Priyamedha; x. 133, Sudas, son of Pijavana;
    x. 134, Mandhatri, son of Yuvanasva (see above, p. 225); x. 179,
    S'ibi, son of Usinara, Pratardana, .son of Divodasa and king of Kasi
    (see above, p. 229), and Yasumanas, son of Rohidasva; and x. 148 is
    declared to have had Prithi Vainya as its rishi.

    Trivrishna is interpreted into a similar attempt to historicize the Ramayana lineage:

    19. Mandhata )R. V. IV. 42. 8-9 ; VIII 39-40;

    I. 1 12.) B. C. 2460 to 2300,

    It 'appears that Mandhata was the title meaning.
    "The Indian Indra." The Rig-Veda gives his nam
    as Durgaha and a Puran calls him Suvindu.

    About this time, the ancient
    Afghans grew very powerful and turbulent. They
    often invaded N. India and harassed the people
    Mandhata defeated them and conquered Gand-
    hara. He was a just and vigorous ruler, It is
    said that under him, the land was rid of robbers.
    Unluckily, as the consequence of a long drought,
    a famine broke out in N W. India.

    However, he combatted it successfully. The
    pious field of Kurukshetra (Carnal) was the site
    of his numberless sacrifices. Here he performed his
    Imperial and Horse Sacrifices with great pomp.
    He gave numberless cows and gold fish to Brah-
    mans. To relieve the famine-stricken people, it is
    said, he raised hills of boiled rice and curry &c,
    excavated tanks of ghee, curd, honey, milk &c.
    Src. The Rig-Veda has honored him in VIII.
    39-40, I 1 12 and elsewere.

    20. Purukutsa.

    About 2300 B. C. Purukutsa succeeded his fa-
    ther on the throne. Though he was brave and
    resolute, yet he lacked the tact and skill of a con-
    summate general. The Gandharvas (ancient Af-
    ghans) rose in rebellion. He speedily led an ex-
    pedition against them and was successful in putt-
    ing it down. The Afghans gathered strength and
    again raised the standard of rebellion. Nay, they
    even dreamed of conquering N. India. Purukutsa
    again marched against them at the head of a
    strong and large army. But unluckily he was
    defeated and made captive. This is the only in-
    stance of a Solar king’s captivity in the enemy’s
    lands and hands. This earned the late king the
    opprobrious name of Purukutsa i. e. one of much
    ill repute, from Yuru = much and kutsa = censure.
    As the queen was then pregnant, the ministers
    and the people could not place any of his brothers
    on the throne. Prince Muchukunda was a very
    brave general. He repeatedly defeated the Gan-
    darvas and delivered his brother Purukutsa from
    their hands. He even helped the Devas of the
    North against their enemies. In the meantime, the
    queen gave birth to a son. They declared the
    infant prince king. Prince Ambarisha and Mu-
    chukunda were Regents. Purukutsa was set aside
    from the throne on account of his captivity. He
    was however, given a small kingdom to rule on
    the north bank of the river Narmada.

    21. Trasaddasyu.

    Purukutsa ruled for some 5 years only. Then
    his infant son Trasaddasyu was placed on the
    throne (2295 B. C ). During the king’s minority,
    the ministers and his uncles conducted the state.

    He grew up a valiant monarch. Early in
    life, he had conceived the idea of being amply re-
    venged on the authors of his father’s disgrace. So,
    he led several expeditions against the fierce Gand-
    harvas and shattered their power. The very terror
    of his name was enough to keep off foreign enemies
    to attack India for some time. Within India itself,
    there were still Non-Aryan and Daitya and Da-
    nava Aryan Powers, inimical to the Aryans, But
    all of them kept quiet now. The kingdom of
    Oudh was highly prosperous under him.

    He ruled some 70 years (2295
    to 2225 B. C ) Towards the latter part of his reign
    the great sage Agastya came to him for some
    money to make ornaments for his wife But know-
    ing that the income and expenditure of the state
    of Oudh were equal, he refused the king’s gift.
    Agastya next went to the Danava king Iivala of
    Central India, who enjoyed the ’reputation of
    immense wealth at that time. The great sage
    and his works in the Deccan deserve special notice
    here. He was the most distinguished sage of India
    in the twenty-second century B. C. He and his
    brother Vasista, were sons to Mitra-Varuna and
    a prostitute Urvasi by name. His true name was
    Mina [Vrihad sanhita). He is highly honored in
    the Rig-Veda and all other traditions. He first
    built his hermitage in the Chhapra district (Behar
    but afterwards repaired to the Vindhya mountain.
    He spent his whole life to spread Hindu civilisa-
    tion in the Deccan. With the aid of his brother
    and disciples, he was highly successful in his mis-
    sion. The South bowed to the North, attracted
    by the latter’s superior civilisation The works of
    Agastya in the field of politics were not less im-
    portant. About this time, the western coasts of
    South India were constantly oppressed by the pir-
    ates. It is said that after the fall of Vritra, the
    great Assyrian monarch, the Assyrians of the
    Mekran coast, being afraid, took to sea and began

    The Indian coasts and merchantmen were of-
    ten attacked and looted by these people known
    to the Hindus by the name of Kiilakeyas. These
    men gradually settled in the islands A large co-
    lony of them finally settled in the Malabar Coast.
    Thus, centuries passed amidst the alternate states
    of peace and war, In the twenty-second century
    fresh troubles arose. It would be wrong to sup-
    pose that the new northern Mission was universally
    hailed in the South. There were small but power-
    ful communities who allied with the Kalakeyas
    to strongly oppose the New Mission. The her-
    mitages were attacked, missionaries killed, cows
    stolen and lots of harms done. Agastya now ap-
    plied to the kings, received their aid in men and
    money, formed a strong army and navy by which
    the enemies were crushed and the sea-pirates
    hunted out and driven from the islands of the Ara-
    bian Sea. After a stay of some 25 or 30 years
    near the Vindhyas, Agastya left for still further
    South, on the same holy mission, and settled per-
    manently somewhere beyond the Godavari and
    Krishna. His mission in the new sphere went on
    with full vigor. While Agastya was busy, civilising
    the southernmost peninsula, a political disturbance
    arose in the north. It appears that some Solar
    king of the north led an expedition for the poli-
    tical conquest of the Deccan. But the Dravi-
    dians of the Vindhyan states checked his course,
    and resolved to turn the table. They formed an
    alliance and invaded the north. Fight went on
    for sometime with success and reverse. At last
    the Dravidians had the better of it The Nor-
    therners sent an envoy to Agastya to intercede.
    The great sage came from the south and bade
    the Dravidian allies desist from further warfare.
    They obeyed him and stopped,

    There is no evidence to show that Agastya
    had filled any part of the Deccan with the Aryan
    settlers. True, some Solar and Lunar princes had
    already penetrated into the south and built small
    kingdoms there ; but they were mere drops in the
    ocean of the Dravidians, The only Aryan state
    that had attained importance and distinction was
    Vidarbha ( Now Berar and its neighbourhood ).
    Agastya married princess Lopamudra of Vidarbha.
    She was one of the 16 ideally chaste Hindu wives.
    Her only son was Idhmavaha. (Rig-Veda and the

    Prishadaswa is our next king. He
    is honored in the Mahabharata as a worthy king,
    but nothing in particular is known. As the wars
    of Trasaddasyu emptied the treasury, the king
    was therefore compelled to reduce the army ex-
    penditure by minimising the cavalry. His reign
    was probably very short. The next king was Tri-
    dhanva called in the Rig-Veda as Tri-vrishna.
    “He was a great patron of learning, protector of
    the good, wise, brave and wealthy ” (R. V. V.
    27.) His son Tryaruna was the next king. He
    was a great Vedic scholar. Like his father he
    also was a patron of learning. The seer Atri says
    “The royal saint Tryaruna, son to Trivrishna, has
    attained great distinction by giving me a cart
    with two bullocks and ten thousand gold coins."
    (R V. V. 27.)

    I am not sure it works to say Trivrishna was after Trasadasyu. Nor why the interpretation is given. The list does not really work because the next king was affected by Visvamitra:

    25. Satyavrata (Trisanku)

    That one is not in the Rg Veda, although it might be apt to think of it coming in with Astrology.

    For example, you can see the Southern Cross, in South India. The legend of Trisanku would probably be irrelevant to observations made from Haryana or UP.

    The reason for posting that is because it shows that someone who is trying to track the Solar Dynasty on its own terms has made a reasonable estimate towards the epoch and bothered to specifically cite material from the Rig Veda. This seems to be one of the only inquiries about "Trivrishna", aside from the fact of the text stating such kings has been noted.

    The Rig Veda does not attempt to provide the Solar Dynasty as it was in Ayodhya or Bihar.

    It does, however, think so highly of Trasadasyu that he is believed to be edited anachronistically into the older Mandalas.

    It does not actually connect Sahadeva to Sudas or the Bharatas. We cannot quite say what is connected, because Vrsagira is arguably a priest or Sage or deity represented thereby (Indra).

    Without further Vedic recording, the Varsagiras cannot really be determined to be brothers, allies, or what, aside from being the tangible persons involved.

    There are multiple streams of thought about Sahadeva:

    1b) A son of Jarāsandha of the Māgadha line; father of Somāpi(a) and Mārjāspi; his son Somāpi (Somādhi, Matsya-purāṇa) ruled for 58 years, at Girivraja. The latter's son was Śrutaśravas.

    1d) A son of Sudāsa, (Sandāsa, Viṣṇu-purāṇa), and father of Somaka.

    So Vishnu Purana is held to be one of the first written (ca. 200-400) Puranas, and, we see where a presumably obvious name would go, appears differently.

    Considering that everything was spoken before this, in the phonetics, "Sandasa" is perhaps a bit like "-sandha". We can't say these are exactly the same names but they are pretty close:

    1) Surādhas (सुराधस्):—[=su-rādhas] [from su > su-yaj] mfn. granting good gifts, liberal, bountiful, [Ṛg-veda]

    1) Sudās (सुदास्):—[=su-dās] [from su > su-tanaya] mfn. ([probably] [from] a √dās = dāś) worshipping the gods well (bestowing rich gifts, [Sāyaṇa]), [Ṛg-veda]

    In the Maghada version, 1b, for Jarasandha:

    According to a legend, he was born divided in two halves which were put together by a Rākṣasī called Jara, whence the boy was called Jarāsandha.

    E. jarā a female demon, and sandha connection, union; he was born in two halves, which were put together by the Rakshasi Jara.

    Born to Bṛhadratha in two parts and cast away by the mother. Jarā (s.v.) joined them together, saying in sport ‘Live, Live’. It was Jarāsandha. He was father of Sahadeva. King of Magadha...

    There are external attempts to connect Brhadratha to Vedic Devarata or Cyavana.

    Additional Brhadratha lore:

    The Lamsuras, a forest tribe of the mountain of Gṛddhrakūṭa, saved this King from the attempt of extermination of the Kṣatriyas by Paraśurāma.

    Though he had married two daughters of the King of Kāśi he was childless. The sorrowful king went with his wives to a hermit named Caṇḍakauśika [Kakṣīvān or Caṇḍakauśika, the son of Gautama] and pleased him by giving him precious stones. The King told the hermit about his sorrow due to lack of children. The hermit gave them a mango fruit and said that the King should enthrone the son who would be born by eating the mango, and return to the forest for penance. The hermit gave eight boons for the son who was to be born.

    The King and his wives returned to the palace and divided the mango fruit into two and both of his wives ate the fruit and became pregnant. Each of them gave birth to half of a child. The lifeless forms of these half children were thrown out. A giantess called Jarā put them together and instantly the pieces joined together and became a living child. The giantess took that child and made a present of it to the King. That child grew up and was known by the famous name Jarāsandha. From that time onwards Giantess-worship began in Magadha.

    6) Bṛhadratha (बृहद्रथ).—An Agni (fire). As this Agni is the son of Vasiṣṭha he has got the name Vasiṣṭha also. A son named Praṇīti was born to this Agni.

    The kings of Magadha with Girivraja as capital; 32 in number, and ruled altogether for 1000 years...

    Bṛhadratha (बृहद्रथ) is mentioned twice in the Ṛgveda, in both cases beside Navavāstva. The name may thus be an epithet of Navavāstva.

    Bṛhadratha (बृहद्रथ).—

    1) an epithet of Indra.

    The "non-mention" is in V.80 as generic for "vast".

    The named individual is in X.49:

    I, the slayer of Vṛtra, am he who crushed Navavāstva and Bṛhadratha, (who crushed) Dāsa like a Vṛtra, when I drove to the distant shore of the shining world

    Mentioned as an adversary by Kanva:

    ...let Agni, the arrester of the robber, bring hither Navavāstu, Bṛhadratha and Turvīti.

    That doesn't necessarily mean "destroyed", they may have been broken as individuals and started a new life paying tribute to Indra.

    Viz. Turviti:

    2) Turvīti (तुर्वीति).—A King. But since in some places he is mentioned as a sage, it must be presumed that he must have been a King who had become a sannyāsin during the latter part of his life. Once this sage was drowned and Indra came in time and rescued him. (Sūkta 61, Maṇḍala 1, Ṛgveda).

    Kanva listed "Turvaya" with what sound like "distant friendlies"; however, the rejoinder of Turviti is given, possibly with Turvaya, as the rescue from a river of Turviti and Vayya in IV.19.

    In IV.30, the same favor is given to Turvasa and Yadu:

    utá tyā́ turvášāyádū asnātā́rā šácīpátiḥ

    after overwhelming Usas, in the process of destroying two Aryas.

    "the unwedded damsel's son, the castaway"

    On yonder side of Sarayu,
    Thou, Vrtra-slayer, didst conduct those two forlorn, the blind, the lame.

    dvā́ jahitā́ nayo 'ndháṃ šroṇáṃ

    We just found some kind of catharsis happening to the lame, blind person, or i. e. Rjrasva, cursed by Vrsna.

    Out of all of the Varsagiras, the one most remembered is Ambarisa. The name is used for sons of Mandhata and Nabhaga. Also there are the versions of Ambarisa as the cause for Sunashepa. I am not convinced any of those work.

    More specifically for Ambarisa:

    1c) An Aṅgirasa and mantrakṛt.*

    * Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa II. 32. 108; Vāyu-purāṇa 59. 99.
    1d) A kādraveya nāga.*

    * Brahmāṇḍa-purāṇa III. 7. 36; Vāyu-purāṇa 69. 73.

    The latter is just to note that "Kadrevya" is also Vedic, but late.

    Out of the whole page, one detail matches the Veda on the Ikshvaku Dynasty:

    Ambarīṣa was his son and Sindhudvīpa was the next king.

    Yes, or, at least according to the Parampara or lineage as it appears in Rg Veda.

    But if we keep following this, we run into those who would have to have "II" attached:

    175. Sarvakāma, the lord of the people, was the son of Ṛtuparṇa. King Sudāsa, his son, became a friend of Indra.

    176. Sudāsa’s son, the king named Saudāsa became well-known as Kalmāṣapāda. He is known by the name Mitrasaha also.

    177. For the perpetuation of the line of Ikṣvāku, Vasiṣṭha of great brilliance, begot Aśmaka of the wife of Kalmāṣapāda.

    178-179. Mūlaka was the bosom-born son of Aśmaka. In this context too they cite this, concerning king Mūlaka:—

    “Indeed, because he was afraid of Paraśurāma, that king remained surrounded by women. Desirous of protection, the lord who was devoid of robes had women for his coat of mail.

    The Vedic Rishi would have to be after Sudas, maybe not terribly long, but after. It could even be that a late Book Ten Sudas such as Sudas Paijavana is not intended to be original Sudas, which is why his name looks so weird.

    Brahmanda Purana seems fairly accurate about the Rishi Gotras, such as among the Thirty-three Angirases:

    Purukutsa, Māndhātā, Ambarīṣa, Yuvanāśva, Paurakutsa, Trasaddasyu, Ajamīḍha, Kaṇva, Mudgala, Utathya, Vāmadeva, Asija, Bṛhaduktha, Dīrghatamas and Kakṣivān.

    It then perhaps makes sense Ayodhya was an important ally to the Bharatas because they are all Angirases.

    Emperor Bharata as "symbolic" is nearly indistinguishable from "symbolic" Angiras, so it is possible the "legendary emperor" actually *was* Mandhata.

    There is no reason to know the former as ever doing anything, and, inferentially necessary to place the latter as a pre-Vedic legendary emperor in the same place, except as the actual, objective human being.

    It is most likely Ambarisa and Rjrasva co-authored the Soma Hymn I.161, which at first has this unusual expression for "filter":

    “wood; tree; dru [word].”

    The legend: the three Ṛbhus were engaged in a sacrifice and about to drink the Soma; the gods sent Agni to see what they were doing. Agni noticed that they resembled each other; Agni assumed a like form. The hymn refers to this form, calling him brother, and questionign his comparative age. The next hymn states the purpose of Agni's visit is to order the conversion of one spoon or ladle, camasa, used for drinking Soma, or for libations, into four spoons

    The hymn is a Madhu Doctrine that uses an additional term for "exhiliration":


    And, since there is no linguistic root known for "Haryana", it may not be far from these Vedic hymns.

    As connected to Book Four, it seems quite meaningful that the full name is "Gotama Rahugana" and that he becomes astrologically related to Tvastr, out of all the random possibilities.

    Secondly, the historical epoch may not be that of the Bharatas, but of the Varsagiras.

    Most of the Rg Veda may even be the re-installing of Ikshvaku power, especially since Mandhata almost certainly must have been the overall precursor if not patriarch. The most likely unifying factor is that they are Angirases.

    We will temporarily overlook the rest of Book One and parse it where it may fit with the remaining books.

    I.100 has a near instantaneous geometrical look suggesting something pivotal about it.

    It sounds rather significant, if no one has ever examined it, and most Puranas say that Sahadeva is Sudas's son. This may be correct, only later, in Book Ten, where Rg Veda may have second generations of its own namesakes. "Paijavana" is a quite unusual surname, particularly if "Daivodasi" is to be found, and even though both of the kings have a few aliases, that is not one of them.

    Something intense happened to Usas at the Sutlej in Punjab in Book Four. It would then be a matter of time before its Kirat-occupied highlands could be settled by Indians at Nirmand and Manali. So far I am not aware that anything has spoken of moving in that direction.

    What is geometrically arranged with the Varsagiras by a single author turns out to be a very unusual one line hymn.

    We have implied it is a central thread of a "new system" which obviously must be born out in other books, if this is one line, anthemic.

    In terms of non-Vedic writings, I have found yes, this is the case.

    Book One has a single line by Kasyapa, I.99:

    jātavedase sunavāma somam arātīyato ni dahāti vedaḥ | sa naḥ parṣad ati durgāṇi viśvā nāveva sindhuṃ duritāty agniḥ ||

    FOR Jatavedas let us press the Soma: may he consume the wealth of the malignant.
    May Agni carry us through all our troubles, through grief as in a boat across the river.

    We see here an expression for "press out the Soma", sunavama:

    Śūna (शून).—p. p. [śvi-kta]

    1) Swollen.

    2) Increased, grown, prospered.

    3) Morbidly swollen.

    Sūna (सून).—p. p. [sū-kta ktasya naḥ]

    1) Born, produced.

    2) Blown, blossomed, opened, budded.

    Vama (वम).—Ejecting, vomiting, giving out.

    In context, then, Suna Sepa is most likely to press Soma through the swollen penis.

    Vrsa Gira is almost a male equivalent of Vak Ambhrini, both having surnames meaning "strong voiced". Vak is not clearly the daughter of any Rishi, but she provided one of the most powerful hymns I have found. In turn, this line from Kasyapa is going to trace the practice of Devi Yoga into a later song.

    Like the Human Sacrifice, we may need to liberate the Purusha Sukta, as it should be equal to Devi. But we think it is mainly this which has been used to establish male dominance and caste. It is the Purusha Sacrifice that has been enacted by Sunashepa. I would argue the Sukta is just a way of tuning to this, it is internally meditative, not the Laws of Manu.

    So we think shortly after the Rg Veda was compiled, it was rare to consider a "goddess". The more beneficial practices would not then be those of the institutions, but, rather, the inner meaning of the Veda or Yoga, which is what the mantras are about and do. Going up the Sutlej River would mean encounters with Sulini Devi and Hidimba Devi, and those associated with Parasurama. Because Rg Veda has Devi Suktam, there should be some amount of compatibility, although I do not think it refers to any of these stories.

    There is an oblique reference to Lakshmi in I.156:

    yáḥ pūrvyā́ya vedháse návīyase sumájjānaye víṣṇave dádāšati

    He who brings gifts to him the Ancient and the Last, to Visnu who ordains, together with his Spouse...

    The Sovran Varuna and both the Asvins wait on this the will of him who guides the Marut host.

    Visnu hath power supreme and might that finds the day, and with his Friend unbars the stable of the kine.

    sumajjānaye < sumat


    sumajjānaye < jānaye < jānī


    The older White or Sukla Yajurveda means commentaries which are based on orderly, sensible groupings of verses, while Krishna Yajurveda deals with seemingly-random bursts of unrelated verses that have individual meaning. It is not really a theological or doctrinal disagreement that I am aware of, but, a historical cycle, as if they were big phases of the waxing and waning moon. The first is mainly characterized by Yajnawalkya and Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, ca. 700 B. C. E., which is excellent for Honey Doctrine and symbolic sacrifice. At this point, we can say there is such a thing as Yogacara.

    The dark phase is primarily found in Taittiriya Shakha, which is a lineage-based south Indian library, containing the Taittiriya Aranyaka:

    Taittiriya Aranyaka contains a Brahmana text of its own, the Pravargya Brahmana, as well as two Upanishads, the Taittiriya Upanishad (a Muktika or primary Upanishad) and the Mahanarayana Upanishad (a minor Vaishnava Upanishad).

    Taittiriya Upanishad is remarkable for its doctrine of Anandamaya Kosha:

    The Ananda valli is one of the earliest known theories in history on the nature of man and knowledge, and resembles but pre-dates the Hellenistic Hermetic and Neoplatonic theories recorded in different forms about a millennium later, such as those expressed in the Corpus Hermetica.

    Tattiriya Aranyaka Chapter Ten is actually Mahanarayana Upanisad.

    Mahanarayana Upanishad is notable because:

    ....the text references and integrates numerous hymns and their fragments from the Vedas, as it solemnizes Narayana and Rudra.

    As it was with Mitravaruna, and possibly others, the main idea is simply that Narayan and Rudra are different aspects which are supposed to work together and merge. So, of course, there were sectarian cults, and it is difficult to nominate a male deity without being associated with one.

    Durga Suktam is from Mahanarayana Upanishad.

    Taittiriya Aranyaka was the source of Viraja Homa mantra, and of Durga Suktam.

    What Durga Suktam does is take traditional Agni mantras and blend them with a verse for Devi.

    That sounds almost trivial, but the point is that she does so in a way specifically meaning the fiery heat of Tapas in Yoga.

    Because this is a physiological fact in nature, one is able to tell if one is entering what is called yoga.

    You don't have to worry about whether she is a river, or one of the seasons or something, because this Devi is not, she is inner fire.

    It is arguable whether "Durga" is a personal name here, or, a trait of hers that is being admired. One could read it either way. Similarly, she has almost the exact function of Buddhist Tara, whom also appears to be addressed here. She is a verb. Those two are almost the same goddess, an adjective and a verb of Devi who perhaps is not named as either one.

    This is thought to emerge from some of the first material that was physically written ca. 300 B. C. E.

    It copies Kasyapa's Agni I.99 as the first verse.

    Greenmessage translation:

    जातवेदसे सुनवाम सोममरातीयतो निदहाति वेदः ।
    स नः पर्षदति दुर्गाणि विश्वा नावेव सिन्धुं दुरितात्यग्निः ॥१॥
    Jaatavedase Sunavaama Somam-Araatiiyato Nidahaati Vedah |
    Sa Nah Parssad-Ati Durgaanni Vishvaa Naave[a-I]va Sindhum Durita-Aty[i]-Agnih ||1||

    (We offer our oblations to the Fire of Durga to cross over this very difficult ocean of worldly existence)
    1.1: To that Jataveda (one from whom the Vedas are born) we press out the Soma (i.e. Invoke Her ardently); (We invoke that Jataveda) Who consumes by Her Fire of Knowledge (Veda) all the Adversities (within and without) (And frees us from the bondage of the world),
    1.2: May that Agni (Fire of Durga) carry us over this Ocean of the World which is full of Great Difficulties and beset with great Perils; like a Boat (carrying one over a very rough Sea),

    तामग्निवर्णां तपसा ज्वलन्तीं वैरोचनीं कर्मफलेषु जुष्टाम् ।
    दुर्गां देवीँशरणमहं प्रपद्ये सुतरसि तरसे नमः ॥२॥
    Taam-Agni-Varnnaam Tapasaa Jvalantiim Vairocaniim Karma-Phalessu Jussttaam |
    Durgaam Devii[ngu]m-Sharannam-Aham Prapadye Su-Tarasi Tarase Namah ||2||

    (We offer our oblations to the Fire of Durga to cross over this very difficult ocean of worldly existence)
    2.1: To Her, Who is of the colour of Fire (Agni Varna) and blazing with Tapas (Tapasa Jwalantim); Who was born of that Fire (of Tapas) (Vairochinim), and Who is worshipped through Fruits of Actions (Karma Phalas) (offered to Her Fire as oblations),
    2.2: To that Durga, to that Devi, I take Refuge (Sharanam Aham) by falling at Her Feet (Prapadye); (O Mother Durga, I Prostrate before You) Please ferry me mercifully (over this Ocean of the World full of great Difficulties and Perils),

    अग्ने त्वं पारया नव्यो अस्मान् स्वस्तिभिरति दुर्गाणि विश्वा ।
    पूश्च पृथ्वी बहुला न उर्वी भवा तोकाय तनयाय शंयोः ॥३॥
    Agne Tvam Paarayaa Navyo Asmaan Svastibhir-Ati Durgaanni Vishvaa |
    Puush-Ca Prthvii Bahulaa Na Urvii Bhavaa Tokaaya Tanayaaya Shamyoh ||3||

    (We offer our oblations to the Fire of Durga to cross over this very difficult ocean of worldly existence)
    3.1: O Agni (Fire of Durga), You Who are eulogized (for carrying one across this Samsara); Please ferry us (too), by carrying us (i.e. our Souls) over Your Auspicious Nature, and make us cross this World full of Great Difficulties (Samsara), ...
    3.2: ... (and also spread Your Auspicious Nature over the) Land and Earth, (so that the Earth) becomes abundantly Fertile and Green (and we feel Your presence in external Nature); And fill us, (We who are) Your Children with Your Bliss (so that we feel Your presence internally),

    विश्वानि नो दुर्गहा जातवेदः सिन्धुं न नावा दुरितातिपर्षि ।
    अग्ने अत्रिवन्मनसा गृणानोऽस्माकं बोध्यविता तनूनाम् ॥४॥
    Vishvaani No Durga-Haa Jaatavedah Sindhum Na Naavaa Durita-Ati-Parssi |
    Agne Atrivan-Manasaa Grnnaano-[A]smaakam Bodhy[i]-Avitaa Tanuunaam ||4||

    (We offer our oblations to the Fire of Durga to cross over this very difficult ocean of worldly existence)
    4.1: O Jataveda (one from whom the Vedas are born), You remove (grave) difficulties in all the Worlds; Please carry us like a Boat in this very difficult Ocean of the World (Samsara),
    4.2: O Agni (Fire of Durga), our Minds are invoking You (ardently) like sage Atri (who continuously chants the mantras), and our beings are (now) filled with Your Consciousness (by continuously invoking You),

    पृतनाजितँसहमानमुग्रमग्निँ हुवेम परमात्सधस्थात् ।
    स नः पर्षदति दुर्गाणि विश्वा क्षामद्देवो अति दुरितात्यग्निः ॥५॥
    Prtanaa-[A]jita[ngu]m-Sahamaanam-Ugram-Agni Huvema Paramaat-Sadhasthaat |
    Sa Nah Parssad-Ati Durgaanni Vishvaa Kssaamad-Devo Ati Durita-Aty[i]-Agnih ||5||

    (We offer our oblations to the Fire of Durga to cross over this very difficult ocean of worldly existence)
    5.1: (She is) the (Great) Fire Who is Invincible in Battle, and charges ahead in a Terrible manner conquering (the Enemies); We invoke Her together from the Highest Assembly (i.e. ardently invoke Her together with the greatest reverence),
    5.2: May that Agni (Fire of Durga) carry us over this World full of Great Difficulties, by (charging ahead and) Burning to ashes the very difficult Enemies (within us) with Her Divine Fire,

    प्रत्नोषि कमीड्यो अध्वरेषु सनाच्च होता नव्यश्च सत्सि ।
    स्वां चाग्ने तनुवं पिप्रयस्वास्मभ्यं च सौभगमायजस्व ॥६॥
    Pratnossi Kam-Iiddyo Adhvaressu Sanaac-Ca Hotaa Navyash-Ca Satsi |
    Svaam Ca-Agne Tanuvam Piprayasva-Asmabhyam Ca Saubhagam-Aayajasva ||6||

    (We offer our oblations to the Fire of Durga to cross over this very difficult ocean of worldly existence)
    6.1: You are lauded for spreading Bliss in the Sacrifice since ancient times (The Bliss resulting from killing the inner Enemies); You act as a Hota (Invoker of Bliss) by abiding as a New Maiden (Who is eternally young and free of decay) (in the Sacrificial Altar within the Hearts of the Devotees),
    6.2: Your own Conscious Form, O Agni (Fire of Durga) is a source of Happiness (Bliss) for us, and a source of Welfare for our Sacrifice,

    गोभिर्जुष्टमयुजो निषिक्तं तवेन्द्र विष्णोरनुसंचरेम ।
    नाकस्य पृष्ठमभि संवसानो वैष्णवीं लोक इह मादयन्ताम् ॥७॥
    Gobhir-Jussttam-Ayujo Nissiktam Tave[a-I]ndra Vissnnor-Anusamcarema |
    Naakasya Prssttham-Abhi Samvasaano Vaissnnaviim Loka Iha Maadayantaam ||7||

    (We offer our oblations to the Fire of Durga to cross over this very difficult ocean of worldly existence)
    7.1: With Senses (i.e. Mind and Heart) Pleased (by Your Blissful Presence) and becoming Unattached (to the external world), we are Infused with Your (Devotion), O the Highest One; May we Follow (i.e. Immerse ourselves in) Your All-Pervading (Blissful Consciousness) ...
    7.2: ... within the Spiritual Sky (Chidakasha), and dwell here in this Vaishnavi Loka (World of Your All-Pervading Consciousness), being Intoxicated (by Your Blissful Nature),

    ॐ कात्यायनाय विद्महे कन्याकुमारि धीमहि
    तन्नो दुर्गिः प्रचोदयात् ॥
    Kaatyaayanaaya Vidmahe Kanyaakumaari Dhiimahi
    Tan-No Durgih Pracodayaat ||

    Durga Gayatri:
    1: Om, (Let our mind contemplate) on Devi Katyayani to know Her (Conscious Form); (And then) Meditate on that Kanyakumari deeply (Who is the Universal Mother),
    2: May that (Fire of) Durga awaken (our Consciousness).

    ॐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ॥
    Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih

    Om, (May there be) Peace, Peace, Peace
    Last edited by shaberon; 13th March 2024 at 23:07.

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    Default Re: Hindutva, 1882, and the Vedas

    Book Six: Mandala Two



    This Book is neither original nor named for a legendary Sage:

    Grtsamada, the eponymous RSi of MaNDala II is
    a descendant of Sunahotra BhAradvAja, a composer in MaNDala VI.

    So in his own terms he is called Grtsamada Saunahotra, although the first implication would be as a direct disciple of Sunahotra. It is possible he is later or indirect.

    Not sure anything important happens here:

    ...the only kings referred to by the KaSyapas (as patrons) are the
    PUru or Bharata kings Dhvasra and PuruSanti (IX.58.3), and the
    only prominent king remembered by the GRtsamadas is DivodAsa

    There is only one additional follower:

    Kurma Gartasamada

    and one more composer, Somahuti Bhargava:

    the very first of these hymns, he identifies himself with the
    GRtsamadas (11.4.9).

    Trita Aptya is not clearly identified with any family in the Rigveda,
    but it is significant that he is described by the GRtsamadas (Kevala
    BhRgus) in 11.11-19 as belonging to our party (Griffiths translation).

    Let's take that as "most significant", or characteristic, here.

    My guess is this is probably the simplest and most straightforward Mandala.

    It is the shortest and smallest.

    Mostly by one person, who is a Kevala Bhrgu or understood as an Angiras who wound up joining a Bhrgu order. This should not be surprising considering Jamadagni from before.

    It is probably the closest thing to a "normal book", that is, in a mostly linear order with blocks of subjects. In several cases, one hymn runs right on into the next. You would think it was the same.

    We will get back to perhaps mapping it, but this should become evident through the verses cited.

    To prevent Astrologers from thinking the wrong way, you have to discard Varuna with respect to "Waters". More likely what is being represented here are two faint stars near Tvastr--Citra--Spica. It's incomprehensible without considering it as a multiple symbol, including Astrological, Terrestrial or Agricultural, and personal or perhaps Yogic.

    The area of Hymn Eleven with Trta more precisely:

    Upon the great Trikadruka days, Hero, rejoicing thee, O Indra, drink the Soma.
    Come with Bay Steeds to drink of libation, shaking the drops from out thy beard, contented.

    Hero, assume the might wherewith thou clavest Vrtra piecemeal, the Danava Aurnavabha.
    Thou hast disclosed the light to light the Arya: on thy left hand, O Indra, sank the Dasyu.

    May we gain wealth, subduing with thy succour and with the Arya, all our foes, the Dasyus.
    Our gain was that to Trta of our party thou gavest up Tvastar's son Visvarupa.

    He cast down Arbuda what time his vigour was strengthened by libations poured by Trta.
    Indra sent forth his whirling wheel like Surya, and aided by the Angirases rent Vala.

    From the last line you see Indra abandoning his Vajra in favor of Vishnu's Sun Disc, i. e. "they are friends".

    Here, it is essentially on behalf of Trta that Indra has overcome Visvarupa and Arbuda.

    This is perhaps unimportant in the sense it has been forgotten. But this is like an original, a source. Our guess is that this is very important, for what it is actually talking about, and of secondary importance as latter-day misunderstandings.

    Considering Suhotra and Sunahotra of Book Six, one might expect the Grtasamadas are parallel to the Sauhotras of Book Four:

    The AnukramaNIs classify the GRtsamadas as Saunahotra
    ANgiras paScAt Saunaka BhArgava: i.e. ANgirases of the
    Saunahotra branch who later joined the Saunaka branch of the
    BhRgus. However, the hymns clearly show that the GRtsamadas
    identify themselves only as Saunahotras (11.18.6; 41.14, 17) and
    never as Saunakas. They refer only to ANgirases (11.11.20; 15.8;
    17.1; 20.5; 23.18) and never to BhRgus. They refer only to the
    ancestral ANgiras RSi BRhaspati (who is deified in four whole
    hymns, 11.23-26, as well as in 11.1.3; 30.4, 9) and never to the
    ancestral BhRgu RSis AtharvaNa, Dadhyanc or USanA.

    What was the "Sunaka" branch?

    Most of the Puranas say he is the son of Grtasamada.

    The primary Rishi's name looks backwards:

    āṅgirasaḥ śaunahotro bhārgavo gṛtsamadaḥ

    As does their Apri Hymn:

    The GRtsamadas reverse the order and place BhAratl last; but, in
    another hymn, they make amends for it by naming all the Three
    Goddesses in the original order: BhAratl, ILA, Sarasvatl (11.1.11).
    This, incidentally, is the only hymn, apart from the AprI-sUktas, to
    refer to the Three Goddesses by name.

    It is not only not a legendary name, "grtsa" as a synonym for "wise" is not found in Book Six. It shows up in a few spots, such as Gadhi to Agni:

    gṛtsaṃ kaviṃ viśvavidam amūram |

    Vasistha describes Varuna:

    devo aryo gṛtsaṃ rāye kavitaro


    gṛtso rājā varuṇaś

    Vamadeva on Agni:

    gṛtso amṛto vicetā vaiśvānaro

    if it has any lineage, it would appear as:


    Or, something named from Kurma.

    At first glance, it does get metaphysical.

    There is a mantric revelation in II.36 about Vasat and Svaha and the sons of Bharata:

    WATER and milk hath he endued, sent forth to thee: the men have drained him with the filters and the stones.
    Drink, Indra, from the Hotar's bowl first right is thine-Soma hallowed and poured with Vasat and Svaha.

    Busied with sacrifice, with spotted deer and spears, gleaming upon your way with ornaments, yea, our Friends,
    Sitting on sacred grass, ye Sons of Bharata, drink Soma from the Potar's bowl, O Men of heaven.

    Come unto us, ye swift to listen: as at home upon the sacred grass sit and enjoy yourselves.
    Tvastar, well-content be joyful in the juice with Gods and Goddesses in gladsome company


    This is the closest thing in the Book to calling the Bharatas people and what they are doing:

    bharatasya sūnavaḥ

    They are Divo Nara, that is to say their existence as an earthly dynasty is denied--although because we know there are Rbhus, then, we should know it would be possible to say that they *were* men perhaps from a dynasty, who had achieved Immortality. Otherwise, it would refer to Indra, Tvastr, etc., as invoked.

    The next hymn recognizes he is introducing a batch of deities in block fashion:

    Drink, Draviṇodas, along with the Ṛtus: somam draviṇodaḥ piba ṛtubhiḥ: this is the refrain of the next two hymns also and of the last hymn;

    Ṛtus = the seasons

    Since "bharata" is relatively common for "to bear, hold, to carry", in the Vedic sense it has been particularly applied to Fire and Soma. That is exactly what we find in two sets of hymns from II.7:

    VASU, thou most youthful God, Bharata, Agni, bring us wealth,
    Excellent, splendid, much-desired.


    Where he has the rare epithet Pavaka:

    šúciḥ pāvaka vándyó 'gne bṛhád ví rocase
    tváṃ ghṛtébhir ā́hutaḥ

    Thou, Purifier Agni, high shinest forth, bright, adorable,
    When worshipped with the sacred oil.

    Ours art thou, Agni, Bharata, honoured by us with barren cows,
    With bullocks and with kine in calf

    Wood-fed, bedewed with sacred oil, ancient, Invoker, excellent,
    The Son of Strength, the Wonderful.

    and II.14:


    MINISTERS, bring the Soma juice for Indra, pour forth the gladdening liquor with the beakers. logeth ever
    To drink of this the Hero offer it to the Bull, for this he willeth.

    Him who did Urana to death, Adhvaryus! though showing arms ninety-and-nine in number;
    Who cast down headlong Arbuda and slew him,-speed ye that Indra to our offered Soma.

    Ye ministers, to him who struck down Svasna, and did to death Vyamsa and greedy Susna,
    And Rudhikras and Namuci and Pipru,-to him, to Indra, pour ye forth libation.

    The repeated offering of ghee from a spoon:


    This does have the tone of being composed after multiple battles, also mentioning:

    Who quelled the valiant men of Atithigva, Kutsa, and Ayu,-bring to him the Soma.

    We will get back to what "quelled" may be.

    There are numerous relations of Indra to the Vasus including such expressions as:


    There is a repetition of the context we just found in Books One and Four next in Hymn Fifteen:

    Now, verily, will I declare the exploits, mighty and true, of him the True and Mighty.
    In the Trikadrukas he drank the Soma then in its rapture Indra slew the Dragon [Ahi].

    High heaven unsupported in space he stablished: he filled the two worlds and the air's mid-region.
    Earth he upheld, and gave it wide expansion. These things did Indra in the Soma's rapture.

    From front, as' twere a house, he ruled and measured [mima and mana]...

    That being Creation, he proceeds to the riverine rescue of Dabhiti, and then:

    With mighty power he made the stream flow upward, crushed with his thunderbolt the car of Usas,
    Rending her slow steeds with his rapid coursers. These things did Indra in the Soma's rapture.

    Knowing the place wherein the maids were hiding, the outcast showed himself and stood before them.
    The cripple stood erect, the blind beheld them. These things did Indra in the Soma's rapture.

    Thou, with sleep whelming Cumuri and Dhuni, slewest the Dasyu, keptest safe Dabhiti.
    There the staff-bearer found the golden treasure. These things did Indra in the Soma's rapture.

    Loud may we speak, with brave men, in assembly.

    Again, the tale of Rjrasva brings in "blind and lame", so this may be the same thing or may be about the Varsagiras.

    Hymn Sixteen has several iterations of "vrsa-" and "vrsna-".

    Grtsamada has put Dabhiti in the past, he first appears only with Cumuri in VI.26, with Cumuri and Dhuni in the likely redaction VI.20, with both as spoken of by Vasistha, with thirty thousand by Vamadeva, untranslated or generic by Vamadeva, and in Kutsa's I.112:

    “With those aids by which you, who are worshipped in many rites, protected Kutsa, the son of Arjuna, as well as Turviti, Dhabhiti, Dhvasant, and Puruśanti; with them, Aśvins, come willingly hither.”

    It also has Adrigu, and in the present