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Thread: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

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    Default The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    This is a Whoo-Hoo moment for me. I had never had the courage to tackle the Indus Script in any serious way, but one of the comments on my other post here on PA asked me why I didn't try it? I had no good answer to that so I finally gave it a good look. This took me two days to translate. Which is not bragging, but more like begging the question of "why hasn't someone else done this much earlier?" for which I have no reply. Well, I have a reply, but it relates to my idea that nothing much is either accidental or coincidental - there is a reason relating to something, somewhere.

    Yes, it is indeed true. Yesterday afternoon I finished my translation of a line of seven symbols written in the Indus Script, which until then had remained unintelligible. Yes, there have been a few attempts, and some reportedly near successes, but I have seen nothing previously that was more than either a guess or wishful thinking, usually on the part of some well-meaning locals who wished to pry out the words left them by their distant ancestors. I don't blame them. Most of you will take these statements as being egoistical in nature or a display of common bragging to us lesser folk, but it's more of a reaction or response to my personal excitement. If it sounds that way, skip to the next sentence and forgive me. I could stop doing it altogether, but that would be dishonestly phony.

    I chose this example, out of the many available, due to this statement by our scholars: "It has one of the more complicated designs in the thousands of seals found from the Indus Valley civilization, and is unusual in having a human figure as the main and largest element; in most seals this is an animal." Why not start with the tough ones? Ha Ha. The example they give on wakipedia with 35 symbols looks easy to translate but I didn't use it because it shows a Yoga position but the guy doing it looks almost like a Satanic figure, right?


    Can we now go on to tackle all of those writings in Indus Script, and perhaps disclose the great knowledge that those very gifted people wished to pass down? Yes. But not me - I'm actually really busy on other projects that I consider to be equally important.

    Can we now begin to understand the writings of the Easter Island group, with, in my opinion, probably even greater secrets waiting to be revealed? (Think Lemuria and Atlantis). They use practically the same symbols as these Indus people. It's very possible. I would love to tackle that but I work alone, and I could not handle the scholarly attacks that would arise - they simply can't stand for those truths coming out. Because it indicates, quite simply, that a group of proto-Sumerian writers, and perhaps not Sumerians themselves, was over the face of nearly the entire planet, and at a period of earlier than 5000 years ago. The books that no longer can be used to teach with, the degrees and awards that no longer have the same meaning, the loss of funding and scholarship endowments - literally the end of our recording of history itself.
    And we might wind up with unemployed scholars, who might then decide to run for public office.

    When I solve the puzzle of an untranslatable piece of communication, my first objective is to understand both the 'what' of the piece and the how. How they did it is important, but what was included in the package that they wished us to understand is more important, in my opinion.

    Many times the way in which they choose to craft the missive tells us quite a bit. For example, there are 17 words in the Sumerian dictionary for "man". From old man to a young man, working man, rich man, priestly man, etc. And there are 21 words for woman or female, including one that translates as "female burglar" ! So there was no shortage of words available for them to assign to the first figure, that which appears to be a man-like shape or stick figure, standing with arms out slightly.

    Thzt position can be assumed to indicate a posture of peace - empty hands showing, so to speak. Or the outline of one open to learning, or awaiting the release of previously unrevealed knowledge - open hands, open body, equals open mind. It could even indicate a previously unknown position for meditation, that with arms at half-mast rather than their hands raised to the stars or down towards the feet.

    But the reason that I mention this is because they choose to use a symbol that could easily equate to one of two symbols in ancient (proto) Sumerian symbology. And both of those symbols indicate "person" with no assignment as to either male or female. So they intentionally used a symbol that even if mistaken for another similar shape would still reward us with an idea of a person. Person as in, sex is not important. A Person, as in perhaps neither a man nor woman but a sky goddess that looks exactly like us and lives among us, granting us her knowledge and peaceful example.

    So they appear to be going out of their way to make a point. These types of intentional placements of symbols, in a sentence of seven characters, tells us that this is intentional, and not coincidental.

    The next characters speak of a god, or more properly a goddess. And in this case a mother goddess. But not just any mother goddess - this indicates the goddess described as the one who gave birth to the sky gods. She was known as the midwife to the gods themselves. Not to mankind, but to a higher purpose. And my opinion, based upon experience and not evidence at this point, tells me that she was considered as a person and not as your everyday "female" to those early people, simply because to them she was a presence in their lives. She was among them, so to speak. They very probably considered her as just another human, although elevated to the status of a goddess to the sky gods. In addition to her role as birth mother to the sky gods she was also referred to as the Mother of Earth or Earth Mother. She helped or caused the plants to flourish, the flowers to bloom. We see this same theme among nearly all of the cultures throughout the history of mankind on Earth. So perhaps we should pay more attention to this in future. It was important then - and perhaps even more so today; surely we need a Mother goddess to oversee what we are doing to our planet.

    In the image below we have the symbols themselves above a man seated in a Yoga position. Modern scholars tell us that this may not represent that - but I have run down their bios and they are not actually scientists at all - more like paid shills for some group. The lead archaeologist of the early work done in Mohenjo-Daro claimed that it is a clear position known in Yoga, and I find that to be correct in my own opinion. He is wearing a horned helmet, which reinforces the Mother goddess idea of the text since her symbols include the horns of a cow in her role as Mother goddess and midwife.




    But even more interesting are the animals displayed. The two deer are also known symbols of the Mother goddess, and point to her role of mercy to the weak or newly born. But notice the display that they chose - Elephant, Tigre, Water Buffalo and Rhinocerous; all predators or fierce defenders of their turf from time to time, and yet they wander freely with deer, without any apparent attempt to feed upon them or to challenge each other. This is another attribute of the Mother goddess motif.

    When, by the way, was the first historical evidence of war? Of an armed conflict that involved a dozen people or more slaughtering each other? Neanderthals? Nope - absolutely no evidence of that. Cro-Magnons? Nope. No evidence of that either - although some die-hard archaeologists attempt to show us one in Germany, involving a few dozen Cro-Magnon type tribal people - until the biologists pointed out that they died from disease, and had no obvious wounds. No, the first evidence of war is after the rise of the Sumerians and near to their fall to the Akkadians. The Semitic groups appear to have brought War to mankind (or their handlers more likely). This artifact showing a peaceful existence of animals, with a Mother goddess to look over mankind, is the way that mankind once lived and believed. The Mother goddess saw no need to direct her people to a new "promised" land that they needed to take by way of the murder of men, women and children.

    Think Yoga. Think of the peaceful way of life taught in Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, Tibetan and other religions of the far-East. Doesn't it seem to be the child of this early idea, written on tablets so long ago in our past? To say nothing of the Christ who taught the same ideas.

    By the way, this Mother goddess was named in Sumerian lore, and although other names were given her by nearby civilizations, they all chose to have one at hand. This idea was popular from Tibet through to the Celts of Europe and on to the Native Americans and Pacific Islanders as well.

    When I use Sumerian proto-symbols to translate the text, and the Sumerian dictionary to define it, we can not, and should not, assume that the Indus Valley Civilization did not have their own underlying language that they used for these symbols. In fact we must assume that they did.

    I can translate the symbols but I do not understand nor am I familiar with, whatever words in whatever language that they spoke when shown those same symbols. But actually it doesn't really matter - as long as we can pry meaning out of them, and then translate that transliteration into English, we can understand clearly what they wished to tell us.

    In other words, I don't need to understand the spoken language of the natives - just their clear intentions in their choice of symbols. This acts as a sort of (notice I say sort of as in not really) what we might call a Rosetta Stone system of translating. So, no magic involved, no 'Sitchin-like' channeling - just language, and a familiarity with the proto forms involved.

    The first symbol indicates "person". The second is Nagar, and there are cities or areas with that name today found in Bangladesh; India; Iran; Pakistan; and Syria - or in other words, all of the areas that India traded with in ancient times, and all of the areas that at one point in time used a form of Sumerian cuneiform as their written language. But in this case the Nagar represents one of the ways that the Mother goddess name was spelled, with Ninhursag, Ninurtu, Ninmah ("Great Queen"); Nintu ("Lady of Birth"), Mami (mother); Aruru, Belet-Ili (mistress of the gods, Akkadian) being just some of the others. The mother goddess had many epithets including shassuru or 'womb goddess', tabsut ili 'midwife of the gods', as well as 'mother of all children' and 'mother of the gods'.

    Although I disagree with the mother of all children idea - this was a later addition performed by the Akkadians and Amorite-Babylonians, since the Sumerians simply knew her as the mother of the gods and our Earth Mother while she was down below among mankind. It's amazing to me that with the many years of learning that our scholars are supposed to have received, they still manage to confuse Sumerian terms with Akkadian, or Akkadian with Amorite-Hittite, and mix up the timelines beyond recognition as well. Or perhaps that is intentional.

    Here's another lie laid to rest. How many of you practice Yoga in one style or another? Were you not told that this arose with the Vedic texts, prior to the formal formation of the Hindu religion, and dating to about 1200 BC? That's what the scholars tell us in their papers. But here we have a Yogic pose, clearly, from Mohenjo-Daro territory, dating to at the very least 2500 BC, again according to our scholars. But wait! The proto form of Sumerian, clearly visible here, ceased to be used after 3100 BC! So yes, this writing that I worked on takes Yoga in its earliest form back to 3100 BC, if not earlier. And Mohenjo-Daro as well, obviously.

    Yoga meditation can thus be safely dated to have its origins as early as 5000 years ago, if not earlier. And to have originally been associated with a peaceful, mother goddess type of understanding.

    The third word is Korun2, which gives us: to be good, to be sweet.
    The fourth symbol is Ur, defined as lion, indicated below by the tiger drawing. This is yet another symbol aligned with the Mother goddess or her offspring. By the way, she is said to have been related to Ki, meaning Earth, so she's a very early goddess indeed - from the time when Enki, the lord of the sky and Earth was setting up his counsels.

    The fifth and seventh symbols caused me the most loss of time. But then my experience with the ways in which Sumerian was written by other cultures kicked in. Symbols were not always facing the same direction, and depending upon the space available on a tablet, sometimes even the Sumerians were known to move symbols to make space work for them. But in this case it's simply a choice by the authors - we see the symbol upside-down normally, but here they have it facing the sky, in honor, perhaps, of their worship of her - it's clearly the Omega shape that is used on a great many depictions of Ninhursag. It is a depiction of the flowing tresses of hair that she is known for. And said to be the color of Emher, which is blond colored wheat familiar to the Middle East people. Yes, this goddess from the sky, in the early days of the sky gods, was blonde. (You know, the first thought that came to my mind was - not all blondes are dumb.)

    The sixth and last symbol is sukud, defined as "to be skillful, elaborate and clever".

    Putting this together we have:
    " The Person of Nagar, good and sweet; our lioness; Ninhursag, skillful and clever, Ninhursag!"

    Which seems, to my southern ears to sound much like a very clear statement. I'm joking, but some of the other suggested "translations" make no sense at all.

    We have a statement of an appreciation for the Earth Mother, important enough to be the mother of the sky gods themselves, but capable of being a lioness when it comes to protecting her flocks, living a peaceful existence, and having her charge of animals do the same, while clearing the minds of the locals through meditation on their place in life and the universe.

    What if the only reason mankind was placed on Earth in the first place was to take care of the animals? What if we had just that one job? And screwed it up?

    I hope you enjoyed reading about this before anyone else. I'm going to place this in a context of Yoga meditation, since there is quite a bit more to the story and most of it interesting. My friend and I have a bet that I can have this published in an e-book within 7 days. A plate of ribs (pork of course) is riding on it, so you know what I will be concentrating on this week. Starting on Thursday that is.
    Last edited by Jim_Duyer; 5th December 2023 at 19:07.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    Thank you Jim. Deciphering the Indus script. What a feat that would be! And yes, it might be the same as the Easter Island script (as has been pointed out many times) – which is of extreme significance.

    I hope you can show us how you did it and what are the results. You do understand my fascination, curiosity ad expectancy.

    You refer to “the image below”. Will you publish that on PA? I can’t find an image.

    May I request that you show the pictogram/ideogram/symbol – assorted with your translation? Then maybe your above explanation will become clearer.

    (May I add that I am rather puzzled by a statement such as this one: “In addition to her role as birth mother to the sky gods she was also referred to as the Mother of Earth or Earth Mother.” This is English. What difference in the original are you referring to when you use these two syntagms "Mother of Earth” and “Earth Mother” as if they were not equivalent, which in English they are?)


    (Just a little remark: that yoga dates back to at the latest the Indus civilisation has been stated by quite a number of people – and they often adduce MohenjoDaro/Harappan material to prove it. Am I not getting your point?)

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    Quote Posted by Michel Leclerc (here)
    Thank you Jim. Deciphering the Indus script. What a feat that would be! And yes, it might be the same as the Easter Island script (as has been pointed out many times) – which is of extreme significance.

    I hope you can show us how you did it and what are the results. You do understand my fascination, curiosity ad expectancy.

    You refer to “the image below”. Will you publish that on PA? I can’t find an image.

    May I request that you show the pictogram/ideogram/symbol – assorted with your translation? Then maybe your above explanation will become clearer.

    (May I add that I am rather puzzled by a statement such as this one: “In addition to her role as birth mother to the sky gods she was also referred to as the Mother of Earth or Earth Mother.” This is English. What difference in the original are you referring to when you use these two syntagms "Mother of Earth” and “Earth Mother” as if they were not equivalent, which in English they are?)


    (Just a little remark: that yoga dates back to at the latest the Indus civilisation has been stated by quite a number of people – and they often adduce MohenjoDaro/Harappan material to prove it. Am I not getting your point?)


    Thanks for your comment!
    I have not tried the Rapa nui writings yet but they do seem awfully similar to me.


    I hope you can show us how you did it and what are the results. You do understand my fascination, curiosity ad expectancy. I will send this to you in a PM. My past experience is that when I provide my work results it tends to bore most of the people. I will need to create that image so give me a day.

    [You refer to “the image below”. Will you publish that on PA? I can’t find an image.]
    I put the link to the image on wakipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shiva_Pashupati.jpg
    For a period of time, and perhaps this is due to the re-indexing of this site, I found I was unable to
    add any images to my gallery, so I have been using links when possible.

    [May I request that you show the pictogram/ideogram/symbol – assorted with your translation? Then maybe your above explanation will become clearer.]Yes, I will PM them to you if I can figure out how to do that.

    [(May I add that I am rather puzzled by a statement such as this one: “In addition to her role as birth mother to the sky gods she was also referred to as the Mother of Earth or Earth Mother.” This is English. What difference in the original are you referring to when you use these two syntagms "Mother of Earth” and “Earth Mother” as if they were not equivalent, which in English they are?)] Well, nothing important - I was just showing that the Sumerians referred to her as the Mother of Earth, but for some reason when it got to the English language we seem to understand Earth Mother as being the correct form. They are identical.


    [(Just a little remark: that yoga dates back to at the latest the Indus civilisation has been stated by quite a number of people – and they often adduce MohenjoDaro/Harappan material to prove it. Am I not getting your point?) ] I have found several comments that have been taken to be authority (by whom?) where the author states that the position on the image (of my posted link) could not be Yogic in nature because they did not have Yoga that early. Yes, I am as puzzled as you, but I have indeed found it in published papers. I agree, easy to understand that it is that old.

    I grabbed another image, just to be sure that I have my head screwed on straight. It's from the Met. collection, and it shows what they "say" is a unicorn on it, with writing. It turns out the unicorn is simply the fancy extension of one symbol, and it's a cow. It has a double-meaning, which was popular with the Sumerians and apparently to the Mohenjo-Daro group as well. It says "An arrogant stranger-outsider, when processing skin from fatten cows to satisfaction, he tears it into pieces the size of rice grains." A comment on foreign abilities perhaps. But it can also be read as: "In our land (or country), to process the skins of fattened cows to satisfaction, takes an official decree or a royal decree or an executive decision." Which might be a comment on government, which is always popular.

    So yes, took me two hours or less and it is a clear message derived from given symbols, which is one of the main requisites of perfecting a translation that seems correct on the face.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    Michel Leclerc - one of the things that has always stuck with me in the Pacific region, besides the writing on Easter Island, is that in the Carolina Islands group the natives had a form of written language (which we never hear much about but was reported in the 1800s) and it includes their word for 20 million and another word that is even higher.
    20 million what? fish? Why would they need to count that high?

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    Ladies and Gentlemen: On the wakipedia page, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_script
    there is an article on this writing. About half-way down the page there is a an image, with this link:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:L...n_(colour).jpg

    Why do they still have that up, as if it is definitive? The article that was peer-reviewed has been removed!
    Because in the article they provide the assay of the copper used to make these plates. And the one in the
    image in the link above, shows zero percentage of arsenic. Non-arsenical copper is NOT old copper. In either the natural state or by addition in order to harden it, the ancients always had between 1.5 and 3.5 percent arsenic in the mix. So most of the copper plates and especially the one in the image on wakipedia, are probably fakes. I don't think that the authors knew because they "came from private collections", but once they did the chemical tests they knew what they were dealing with. They may have withdrawn the article from publication themselves, if nobody else did it.
    And yet wakipedia still clouds the waters by offering this for an example.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    I'm providing the second example instead of sending the first one to you in a PM. I think it's fair that all of PA gets to see this evidence. And in this example we have the multiple meanings and an example of compound signs or symbols - both of which are evidence that their teachers were very probably Sumerians, as this is a signature of their work in many other examples we have today.

    Here is the image that contains all of the work:



    A compound sign is simply two signs placed together - but it's more complicated that one symbol. It was used for emphasis, when it is repeated, for conciseness, when space on the tablet line was at a premium, and frankly to show off their skills I imagine. Scribes can (do) have inflated egos as well. Plus, using this form of double meaning is an excellent way to learn how to hide secret messages inside of ordinary text - one meaning on top for the bosses, the rulers and the public, with another meaning in the same symbols for the wake ones.

    Wakipedia says that this is a "Unicorn" seal with Indus inscription, and a modern impression; Met Museum, and the image is on this page:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S..._(cropped).jpg

    Unicorn? I think not. Unless, that is, you normally place saddles or blanket designs on your unicorns, as you can see from the image. (I don't put saddles on my unicorns).

    No, this is a simple calf or cow image. What might look like (to some) a unicorn's horn is where the author blended the symbol into the image. Did he do this to throw off those who were observing him? Probably. And also to show the Sumerians how adept he was at his work. It's actually a very good example of work, so he was obviously skilled at his craft.

    I've numbered my evidence with 1 through 4/5, with the 4/5 indicating that you can take it as one of two symbols, and in this case he wants us to take both - and arrive at the dual meanings.

    The first symbol is either MA, which looks like the P from the original, or it could be a compound of two signs - bar and lugud2 (lagab has this same sign). Bar means "outsider, stranger, other" but interestingly it also can mean "liver, shoulder, a cut of meat" as well as "spirit, mind, to extend" . We will soon see how all of these meanings can and should be applied.

    Ma, the option for number one, means "land, country, earth" etc.
    Don't worry, I will put all of these in perspective shortly.

    The second symbol is Hi, meaning "to process skin or wool" and it is a compound sign in that it has that same symbol inside of the outer one. A repeated sign might mean emphasis, such as fire, twice, meaning a great big conflagration. But in this case the author wants us to use the same sign to indicate dug3, which is identical in shape and design. So we have a compound of Hi and dug3.
    And dug3 means "to be good, to satisfy, to be ideal".

    The third symbol is ab on the outer design, meaning "cow" with sze2 being the tree shaped design inside of this. Now some might claim that this is not the perfect triangular point that the author drew, but it is the same overall shape and is acceptable as a preferred optional way of drawing this. Also remember that other cultures drew Sumerian symbols slightly differently. However, if one would insist on using one that resembles the triangle, we could have Gada, which is identical, and means "flax, linen, fabric" and would fit equally as well in our overall meaning. I believe it is ab, a much older symbol and one that matches the image of the cow in the drawing itself, but your mileage may vary.

    Inside of this ab is sze, or the alternate word that uses the same sign, niga, meaning : "to be fattened".

    Now, the 4/5 alternate. Four could be a compound of gisz or isz, meaning "mountain" with szu2 representing the curved sign that the author fitted into the head of the cow. And we know that this is incorrect, since cows don't have a single horn curved to the front. The szu2 means "to cover, to envelope, to blanket".

    OR, it could simply be one sign, tar, which means "to cut; to cut down; to untie, loosen; to scatter, disperse; to decide, decree; to cut, tear apart" and this is useful to the author as we shall see.


    Now, the alternate meanings that the author provides are:

    A stranger or outsider, in order to satisfy (or be ideal, good), processes the skin of a fattened cow by tearing it apart into pieces the size of a wheat grain. Or, A stranger satisfies himself by processing the skin of a fattened cow by cutting it into small pieces, much like covering a mountain with a blanket - both impossible and useless tasks in their results.

    When processing skins for use, one would normally attempt to keep as much of the total in one piece as possible, which adds to its value. So this indicates that strangers to their lands simply don't have that skill or knowledge. But notice that the word stranger also contains the meanings of "liver, shoulder, a cut of meat" as well as "spirit, mind, to extend" . Perhaps indicating that strangers or outsiders were simply pieces of meat, with spirit or an extended mind. Which would be a word play worthy of an intelligent craftsmen of words such as this author.

    And we have the additional meaning of:
    In our land (or country), in order to process a skin of a cow to satisfaction, it takes a decision, or decree - much like the decision made by a council of hide-preparation supervisors, or the decree of a ruler or king, just to get it done. Which is an additional slur, this time on the government.

    So, to denigrate strangers or outsiders, and government supervisors or the rulers at one stroke, would certainly tickle the scribes back in Sumeria, and the use of such optional meanings from the same drawing is nothing short of an exhibition of the author's skill.

    Please let me know if you have any questions or suggestions- and please recall that all of the symbols that I mention can be found on the Univ. of Pennsylvania web site, whose link I have supplied in a prior topic.
    Last edited by Jim_Duyer; 6th December 2023 at 00:22.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    Interesting.


    Before going into any specific items here, I have a few things on the environment of it.

    It may change soon, but, for the time being, one can say IVC (Indus Valley Culture).

    The main difference is that the largest and oldest site is in Haryana, India. Mohenjo Daro is an offshoot.

    Secondly it is completely unclear whether IVC is or is not a Vedic or Sanskrit culture.

    And so I am not coming into this one way or the other. I don't know if Sanskrit was the language. What we can be sure of is that "Late" IVC overlaps in time and space with Vedic cultures.

    "Early" IVC is older than most of the known civilizations that "invented" writing.

    In the sense there was a "Vedic Culture", then, originally, at least, it should be understood as resistant to two things--wheat and writing. They strongly felt that writing was a form of cheating, and Vedas were transmitted by a set of human tape recorders.

    The IVC seals are found simultaneously far afield (Elam, ca. 2,300 B. C. E.) as they are in India. They seem to start being used in fairly small amounts, perhaps shortly after they are found in Sumeria, until the number increases, and then it stops suddenly around 1,800 B. C. E.

    This is what I would call a significant vein of writing:


    Quote Posted by Jim_Duyer (here)
    When, by the way, was the first historical evidence of war? Of an armed conflict that involved a dozen people or more slaughtering each other? Neanderthals? Nope - absolutely no evidence of that. Cro-Magnons? Nope. No evidence of that either - although some die-hard archaeologists attempt to show us one in Germany, involving a few dozen Cro-Magnon type tribal people - until the biologists pointed out that they died from disease, and had no obvious wounds. No, the first evidence of war is after the rise of the Sumerians and near to their fall to the Akkadians. The Semitic groups appear to have brought War to mankind (or their handlers more likely).

    Because, not only that, most of the course of war is traceable from there to here.

    I don't know if that means it is exclusive.

    A lot of the IVC seals study is based around the likelihood of them being based on workers, guilds, and goods.

    However it begs the question:


    Quote When I use Sumerian proto-symbols to translate the text, and the Sumerian dictionary to define it, we can not, and should not, assume that the Indus Valley Civilization did not have their own underlying language that they used for these symbols. In fact we must assume that they did.

    There is no consensus that the symbols are a written script.

    They may not be letters or words.

    If words, they may or may not be Sanskrit, and so here:


    Quote I can translate the symbols but I do not understand nor am I familiar with, whatever words in whatever language that they spoke when shown those same symbols. But actually it doesn't really matter - as long as we can pry meaning out of them, and then translate that transliteration into English, we can understand clearly what they wished to tell us.

    In other words, I don't need to understand the spoken language of the natives - just their clear intentions in their choice of symbols. This acts as a sort of (notice I say sort of as in not really) what we might call a Rosetta Stone system of translating. So, no magic involved, no 'Sitchin-like' channeling - just language, and a familiarity with the proto forms involved.

    is where, if so, it would make a lot of sense to me very quickly.

    Such as here you would be justified by the term "new age":


    Quote Here's another lie laid to rest. How many of you practice Yoga in one style or another? Were you not told that this arose with the Vedic texts, prior to the formal formation of the Hindu religion, and dating to about 1200 BC? That's what the scholars tell us in their papers. But here we have a Yogic pose, clearly, from Mohenjo-Daro territory, dating to at the very least 2500 BC, again according to our scholars. But wait! The proto form of Sumerian, clearly visible here, ceased to be used after 3100 BC! So yes, this writing that I worked on takes Yoga in its earliest form back to 3100 BC, if not earlier. And Mohenjo-Daro as well, obviously.

    Yoga meditation can thus be safely dated to have its origins as early as 5000 years ago, if not earlier. And to have originally been associated with a peaceful, mother goddess type of understanding.


    Yoga rather specifically means post-Vedic.

    And non-Vedic.

    A seated pose does not necessarily indicate this.

    Vedas tell one how to do rites, pray, and sing.

    One is generally told that Rg Veda is first and oldest, and that Atharva Veda is youngest (ca. 1,000 B. C. E.).

    That means there was a period of about a thousand years that the material that is in the Vedas was "composed" by Sages.

    The end of this age witnesses the Sages being chased away by wars and disasters and the material is "finalized" in its current written form that no one can change. An advanced person may be considered a "little one" or a "younger" in this age when the scriptures have, so to speak, become "fixed".

    Well, when this happens, there are at least three deviations. The major one is Caste. This is not in the Vedas and contradicts them. Yoga is quite boldly introduced by Yajnawalkya ca. 700 B. C. E., which is not Vedic, although it is in general agreement. Then the events of the Mahabharata cause an outright Dark Age. This probably is a historic event, except not in remote antiquity, probably around 1,000-900 B. C. E. and mishmashed with other stories and generally designed as Epic Literature. If you think of it as a saga it is amazing. It is not a historical document. The Vedas are scripture so they *are* historically reliable.

    The main thing they are about is war and it has been erased from Indian memory.



    I wish I was making that up.

    Until the 2,000s Indians did not know the basic information that is in their own oldest scriptures in the world.

    It is about as new to them as to anyone seeing this post for the first time.


    Allright. So what happened to IVC is the Meghalayan Age starting around 2,200 B. C. E., a series of major droughts that appear to have decimated every major civilization in the world.

    In the Rg Veda there is no Flood Myth.

    The significant enemy is Drought.

    The main hero being Indra as lord of Storms and Rain, if we look over to Sumeria and Canaan, we find Adad or Hadad, the lord of Ekron, or Baal Zebul, the storm or rain deity, which Baal Yhwh then annihilates with drought.


    The Rg Veda has absolutely nothing to do with and practically nothing in common with the Torah or Bible.

    Moreover, it doesn't really teach anything. It is styled as if Indra was already important to you. It does not look like the material "starts" anything, but, starts recording some of it a few generations after the founder.

    Shiva is non-Vedic or is a later name used by yogis, same with Pasupati.



    Quote What if the only reason mankind was placed on Earth in the first place was to take care of the animals? What if we had just that one job? And screwed it up?

    That is similar to the Pasupati view.

    Part of what Yajnwalkya does is explain animals symbolicly, as if in response to a belief you were supposed to kill something.

    You don't kill a pig, you throw some flour in the fire.







    What is intriguing about IVC is that it is true that around the same time, there were also stoneworks in Anatolia.

    Here is a type of scene-setting from the fossil records.

    Brewing is continuous from Mergarh.

    That is a good agricultural study, and, from this, one can follow the spread of wheat, barley, lentils, and peas, from Anatolia to Balochistan:





    According to the Brewers:


    The middle Ganges valley witnessed the domestication of Indian rice (Oriza sativa, subsp. indica), yellow foxtail (Setaria pumila), amaranth (Macrotyloma uniflorum, kulthi bean or horsegram), and various cucurbits between 6000 and 3000 BC.

    Between 5500 BC and 2000 BC, the domestication of starchy plants in India involved several centres and relatively complex exchanges/borrowings/adaptations (see map below) underpinned by population migrations. Archaeobotanists and linguists have tried to superimpose their respective protohistories to understand the setting up of very distinctive regional cultures (Fuller 2003).






    That makes it fairly obvious that wheat was present for the height of IVC, while a rice-based Vedic culture was Gangetic.

    The missing stories from the Vedas seem to say that some western kings joined their cause, others were the enemies.

    Or, wheat probably did not spread across India until after the events that are in Rg Veda.


    Concerning Gangetic Rice:


    A more recent population genomic study indicates that japonica was domesticated first, and that indica rice arose when japonica arrived in India about ~4,500 years ago and hybridized with an undomesticated proto-indica or wild O. nivara.

    It then spread to Harappan and Susa.

    It is thought to have entered Nepal ca. 3,000 B. C. E..



    I found a minor amount about humans of the IVC sites. For Haryana, in its first genetic study:


    The DNA of a single male skeleton (classified as 'I4411') shows affinity with present-day subaltern South Indian, Tamil tribal populations, most notably the Irula people.

    Next, at 2500 B. C.E.:


    The study of DNA samples of the skeletons found in Rakhigarhi, an Indus Valley Civilisation site in Haryana, has found no traces of the R1a1 gene or Central Asian ‘steppe’ genes, loosely termed as the ‘Aryan gene’.

    From a partially-Iranic female:


    The analysis by Reich and colleagues also shows that the Iranian-related lineage present in the Indus Valley people split from the natives of Zagros Mountains in Iran before 8000 BCE. This is before crop farming began there around 7000–6000 BCE.

    This suggests that the descendants of the world’s first farmers who lived in the Fertile Crescent have had no roles in introducing farming to South Asia.


    In Science:


    ...she lived sometime between 2800 and 2300 B.C.E. Her genome closely matched DNA from 11 other individuals who had been found at sites in Iran and Turkmenistan.

    ... the Iranian-related DNA in both the Indus individuals and modern Indians actually predates the rise of agriculture in Iran by some 2000 years. In other words, that Iranian-related DNA came from interbreeding with 12,000-year-old hunter-gatherers, not more recent farmers, Reich explains.

    These can plausibly be called Turanians.

    After this--i. e., from about 2,000 B. C. E.--then, the European-mixed Aryan genetics come mixing back in to India. From the available pool of 523 individuals prior to then, it appears that Balochistan was fairly localized and did not externalize. Harappans are a mixture of Turanic Iranians and South Indians.


    From a study on Rakigarhian I6113, the "pure Iranian":

    The Beit Cave individual
    dates to 10,000 BCE, definitively before the advent of farming
    anywhere in Iran.


    You could probably say that IVC were Turanic Dravidians, considering this has another branch, Turanic Ethiopians.

    "Arya" is not a different gene pool, but, a culture.

    Comparatively, the seals are found in the layers of:


    ...some symbols from potter's marks and graffiti belonging to the earlier Ravi phase from c. 3500–2800 BCE.


    ...pottery inscriptions and clay impressions of inscribed Harappan seals dating to around c. 2800–2600 BCE

    c. 2600–1900 BCE, strings of Indus signs are commonly found


    Both seals and potsherds bearing Indus script text, dated c. 2200–1600 BCE, have been found at sites associated with the Daimabad culture of the Late Harappan period, in present-day Maharashtra.

    ...researchers now generally agree that the Indus script is not closely related to any other writing systems of the second and third millennia BCE, although some convergence or diffusion with Proto-Elamite conceivably may be found.

    About 35 Proto-Elamite signs may possibly be comparable to Indus signs.


    Susa appears in the very earliest Sumerian records: for example, it is described as one of the places obedient to Inanna, patron deity of Uruk, in Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta.






    Indian carnelian beads with white design, etched in white with an alkali through a heat process, imported to Susa in 2600–1700 BC. Found in the tell of the Susa acropolis. Louvre Museum, reference Sb 17751. These beads are identical with beads found in the Indus Civilization site of Dholavira [Gujarat].



    The next significant way that the Veda is not like the Bible is because it does not really use a chain of descent from Adam.

    In fact prior to its founders it says humanity went back "for ages and ages".

    Its origin, Ayodhya, is not modern Ayodhya, it may not be an actual place, may be a symbol, such as, evidently from Atharva Veda, a yogic symbol of the human body. Grammatically, ayodhya is an adjective, similar to Invincible.


    aṣṭācakrā navadvārā devānāṃ pūrayodhyā
    tasyāṃ hiraṇyayaḥkośaḥ svargo jyotiṣāvṛtaḥ

    Eight-wheeled, nine-doored, is the impregnable stronghold of the gods;
    in that is a golden vessel, heaven-going (swarga), covered with light

    —Atharvaveda 10.2.31 —Translation by William Dwight Whitney



    It does not quite use Gemstones either. It has a phrase that could refer to seven of them, "Sapta Ratna", but does not explain this. And someone has a previous translation effort based in Sapta Ratna and Chakravartin to data mine Indus Script through Atharva Veda; this is a corresponding piece later from Amaravati:






    In other words perhaps unaware, he has used a Buddhist symbol as if it had to do with the intricacies of this Vedic mystery, which it does.

    Part of that is the suggestion they are "written backwards". The Atharva Veda is said to be compiled last, however it contains a more primitive Sanskrit than the Rg Veda in some areas. And if we look at some important Vedic Kings, they are not a physical descent from Adam, but, they are a mental descent from Atharvan. In other words, Atharvan is a name of divine mind/inspiration for the Sages, which, in human terms, is not a job you can get, it is the qualifier if you "get" the Vedic material by realization of the state of Atharvan. In turn, Yoga and Ayurveda are practices derived out of Atharva Veda.

    It is Vedic, but it is also yogic, in a sense that during a Dark Age, if a Priest Caste was going to conceal the meaning, then you might be better off with an "unorthodox" or yoga approach.

    Another thing that is not Vedic is Blue. So far it seems the first known use of "blue" is Egyptian.

    IVC was very unlike Egypt who constrained thousands of laborers to build massive monuments. IVC sites do not have temples or anything that resembles a central administration complex.

    The Vedas may be responding to what we might call some Late IVC clans, but, as to whether or not that has anything to do with the design of the seals is not known.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    I have not nearly spent the amount of time absorbing your comment that it deserves, and which I appreciate. It's very interesting and deep, and I will be tossing it back and forth, mentally, this afternoon. As I mentioned previously, I know very little about the Yoga-Vedic etc., but I am fascinated by what I have seen so far. To be honest, my previous impression on observing people practicing Yoga is that they were looking for some way to place body parts in unusual or awkward positions. Kind of like a boxer wondering what a Sensei is teaching in Karate - ignorance rules the day.

    I have learned a lot from your comment. It's obvious that you know that field, and I agree with your ideas. My own former take on the Vedas is that, like the original Hebrew of the Torah - without vowels, you can pretty much get it to say whatever you wish to see. No offense meant, and certainly not all translators nor all texts. But since then I have found kernals of information that match other research. I posted a thread on a cave painting in Spain from 7000 years ago or so that depicted Orion and the area to the north of it. To my surprise, I found the same descriptions, with added details, in research papers on the Veda writings concerning astronomy.

    I have seen the corpus of symbols from the Indus Script. My field is not the evolution of languages but their symbols, and to me the symbols that apparently show a man or woman, posing in different positions, is simply their take and the function of their symbols of communication. For example, 21 words in Sumerian for woman - of different types of labor or social status, each with its own symbol - the Mohejo-Daro people chose instead to use 21 different poses, that may very well produce the same meanings as a result.

    As such, i don't believe that it will be that big a chore to crack the entire corpus of symbols. We see the same thing in the earliest Sumerian - one symbol for land, and a mark to the right or left side of same indicating to the east, to the west, etc. Not all of those compass indicators have been recognized by our experts - some are my take on them, but they do fit in quite nicely and make sense in the context of the tablets.

    Actually my reason for looking at the Indus Script was a comment here on PA, and my goal is to understand enough so that I might give the Easter Island scripts a go. In my spare time, whatever that is.

    I like your ideas of the Vedas in relation to some late IVC clans. At the very minimum they carried down some of the ideas in relation to mother goddess. What struck me about the Vedas is their astronomy. I've read three of the early books on it in the last few days, and I can definitely connect the Vedic astronomy (not astrology) with similar concepts from Mesopotamia, at an earlier date, as well as to the cave painting I mentioned .
    Which way this knowledge flowed is a good question.

    My take on the Mohenjo-Daro and IVC overall is that, our scholars wish to down-play their accomplishments, as usual. We can hardly date them at 2500 when the symbols I translated ceased to be used after 3100 BC. Some scholars seem to date them much earlier, and I have found proto Sumerian to have been used in Gobekli Tepe, among other sites, so probably both are much older than we have been led to believe.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    I'm back at work. I noted this part: [[...researchers now generally agree that the Indus script is not closely related to any other writing systems of the second and third millennia BCE, although some convergence or diffusion with Proto-Elamite conceivably may be found.

    About 35 Proto-Elamite signs may possibly be comparable to Indus signs.]]

    So, let's talk about the Elamite peoples. Older than the Akkadians, Amorites, Assyrians, Babylonians, and Hebrews, and of course the Hittites. Not older than Sumerians, Hurrians, and the Hatti, the fore-runners of the Hittites.

    The Elamites had their own writing system, which scholars are having a difficult time understanding. I've seen the symbols, and many are based on the proto-Sumerian. So that makes sense - they formulated theirs after observing Sumerian, then the Harrapan people copied some from the Elamites and some from the Sumerians. Lots of borrowings going on back then. From what I have seen of them, and the fact that it is very obvious that the underlying language for transliteration was Elamite, I would not wish to tackle them myself. Lots of work for very little new information, in my opinion.

    When you have seven symbols above an image of a cow. And each symbol translates cleanly, and they fit together inside of a theme, and this theme matches the images associated with it, then I would consider that a successful translation. In two days I did two of these, as I posted, so the first was not a fluke. It takes me about two or three hours for each tablet, but that's because I check my work three times, then pause, then try to hit it from another angle and see if I may have missed something, and then clean it up. I know that there are multiple layers of meanings to be gleaned from each one, and I try to obtain as much of the intent as possible. Some things will no doubt escape me - there are colloquial characteristics that are not evident to me from previous work. That's why I am hoping that others will carry this much further than I do - and I will do what I can to assist in that endeavor.

    On these two examples I added nothing, changed nothing, deleted nothing, and did not go outside of the bounds of standard scholarly published and peer-reviewed sources. I did not need to.
    I can, and will of course, do this again. And then I will pick up the Rappa Nui this week and have a go at it as well.
    Actually I am more excited about the Eastern Island examples for the puzzle pieces that they might provide.

    If you know those who do what I do, such as Englund, they have perfected transliterations and then translations that were based on much less input than I used, and came up with several ???? indications, where they were just not sure.
    One of his tablets, in fact, I was able to complete, as to the misunderstood symbols, and it provided some very interesting information about their mythical land called Kur.

    I am not, and probably will never be, his equal. Nor Piotr Steinkeller, whom I feel is one of the best. But I feel that I can hold my own with them in many situations relating solely to proto-Sumerian. I am not as skilled with classical cuneiform, although I have done a lot of work in it. I have about two hundred translated tablets that I chose from the UCLA library of tablets simply because they had never been tackled previously. Not enough hands to handle all of them, unfortunately.

    So from my experience, and what I have seen peer-reviewed by our scholars, I would feel confident in publishing my finds in the Indus Script. In fact, that's what I will be doing next week.

    I won't report on the lineage of the artists who performed the work, nor on the evolution of the most ancient styles to the more modern. But I will report on what I do best - transliterations and translations of symbols into thoughts and phrases that are comprehensible and make common sense.

    I will catch quite a bit of heat. Truthfully, my experience in examining their work tells me that they begin with a certain premise. As in, this is possible, that is not possible. I know, hardly scientific. But if it speaks of, for example, One principal god worshiped by one group of scribes in one city-state, with absolutely no others considered, they would call that improbable or impossible, and refuse to go further. I am not built that way. I go with what the authors say - even if fantastical, it must have been considered of some importance to them or they would not have wasted their time carving clay in the desert heat. For example, in this second artifact above, it mentions a Mother Goddess, which might run contrary to the popularly held opinions of most scholars in Harrapan culture at that period. I do not care.
    My task is to report it, to lay it on the table for discussion and dissection, and allow it to breath life until a better suggestion comes along.

    I believe that your statements above are much in agreement with my own system, and I am grateful for your input.

    My information is that wheat was one of the first domestically cultivated plants, and first cultivated somewhere near modern Georgia, and the area north and east of the Black Sea, at about 7000 to 8000 BC. Correct?

    So why are there carvings on antlers, from the area of northern Russia, dated about 26,000 BC by teams of Russian archaeologists, and these markings I can translate, and they speak of tips for growing plants - with one of them being that plants placed in the soil during the full moon will germinate with more success? And when I contact botanists, they agree that this has been proven in modern studies. Were these not cultivated plants?

    So perhaps you can see why I don't constrain my results to some theme that others have woven for us. I can only promise that I will do my best, I will not cheat, and I will share what I find here. Nothing more can I do, but nothing less as well.

    Thanks for the information on Beer - that was very important to the Sumerian culture. Some say they invented the process of making crude beer - and based on the many early terms that they have for it I find some agreement with that idea. But it was important later - at nearly the end of their civilization - rather than earlier on. Puzzling.
    Perhaps this technology was imported from near India?

    We see so many stories from the Middle East, from all cultures, about the sky gods liking Earth women and taking of them as they pleased. And then we learn of the importance that they placed, early on, on beer making.

    Doesn't this sound like the typical shore leave activities of a group of space sailors? As soon as they land on Earth, after a long journey through the galaxy, the first thing they do is look for women and teach the natives how to make beer for them? Just a thought.

    In closing I would like to leave you with one consideration. From mentions in astronomy related texts from the Vedic publications, I have found the eight-sided star or eight compartments with one specific god in the center of the circle of eight divisions. The god changes from time to time, but the eight does not. I find this same theme in the Sumerian literature, but with one exception. After much work (believe me) I have discovered what this means. It's not actually eight. It's two groups of four. One designates a slice of space where Enlil, Ninlil, Inanna, and their associates came from originally, and the other where Enlil, Ninhursag, and their group came from, as well as supposedly being the same slice of space that humanity was imported from. The Vedic texts call this area the birthplace of comets. I agree.

    And it is associated with the idea of the birth of stars in both the Hindu texts and the Sumerian texts, and this I agree with as well. So the Earth Mother as it relates to the birthplace of the sky gods as well as planets finds agreement from Tibet to Spain, and very early on. At some point in the deep past, humanity joined together, perhaps in suffering, but they joined. And while joined they shared messages relating to their dilemma, and perhaps shared ways to deal with it. The two translations I have done to date tell me that the Indus peoples were just as determined to learn ways in which to perfect obfuscation of ideas to the end of keeping certain conclusions or plans away from the eyes of these so-called "sky-gods". And the end result, that it deteriorated into religion or meditative meetings, tells us that humanity lost. That we may need to once again join together, via hidden messaging, to prepare ourselves for what will come.

    Just my twelve colones (two cents).
    Last edited by Jim_Duyer; 7th December 2023 at 01:31.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    Quote Posted by Jim_Duyer (here)
    My information is that wheat was one of the first domestically cultivated plants, and first cultivated somewhere near modern Georgia, and the area north and east of the Black Sea, at about 7000 to 8000 BC. Correct?

    So why are there carvings on antlers, from the area of northern Russia, dated about 26,000 BC by teams of Russian archaeologists, and these markings I can translate, and they speak of tips for growing plants - with one of them being that plants placed in the soil during the full moon will germinate with more success? And when I contact botanists, they agree that this has been proven in modern studies. Were these not cultivated plants?


    It could be but--what plants?

    The tundra was considered "treeless".

    I am guessing you are referring to what I think of as One Great Year ago. I don't think we have a very old knowledge about precession of the equinoxes. But at about the age of one whole cycle, there is Malta Buret culture, somewhat inconvenient because they are:


    ...genetically "intermediate between modern western Eurasians and Native Americans, but distant from east Asians", and partial genetic ancestors of Siberians, American Indians, and Bronze Age Yamnaya and Botai people of the Eurasian steppe. In particular, modern-day Native Americans, Kets, Mansi, and Selkup have been found to harbour a significant amount of ancestry related to MA-1.


    It has pictograms, venuses, tools, stonework, not replicated to this degree anywhere for quite some time.

    Strangely, "Malta Boy" MA-1 has Mitochondrial Haplogroup Basal U. However, you can find sub-clades such as U5 in Bosnia and other European areas in remains of twice the age! Some of them are thought to be about 45,000 years old, but prove their families must be distant descendants of Basal U, which, so far, has only this single specimen in the whole world.

    Also, MA-1 is the only known example of basal Y-DNA R.

    At the time, it was the oldest complete genome.

    A 2016 genomic study shows that the Mal'ta people have no genetic connections to the Dolní Věstonice people from the Gravettian culture.

    Large article concerning the venuses on Don's Maps.

    The site is easy to remember because in his youth it was dug by that famous Defense Minister, Sergei Shoigu.

    Ancestral to both the "Scythians" and Native Americans. That was not supposed to happen in the minds of many.



    Now to throw in ancestry of the Horse. Malta Buret is Ice Age, and unfortunately, one of the worst survival rates was that of the Horse. Once it ends, there were just a few pockets of horse populations. They were first domesticated by the Botai mentioned above, as a milking animal, around 5,000 B. C. E., and so these were not "bred". As a labor animal, they were selectively bred around 2,200 B. C. E. by *both* the Yamnaya *and* the Arabs.

    The modern animals are immediately distinguishable by their floppy mane.

    Due to their nature, they spread rapidly, and escaped members "mavericks" "mustangs" etc. either bred into or out-competed the pockets of primitive wild horses.


    In India, we cannot be sure that the word for "horse" originally meant "a horse" because it means "go fast".

    When the animal is first specifically mentioned, it is said to have thirty-four ribs, which is almost certainly a match for the Arabian.

    In distant times, they may have had wild horses, asses, donkeys, and the events in the Rg Veda most likely span the generations from solid-wheeled donkey carts to spoked chariots. From a beaten track to a maintained highway.

    Ice and snow are not found until the New Books.

    Iron is not found until the other Vedas.


    There is no iron or wheat in the Rg Veda.

    When you start matching up the events, with the items that are named in it, with archaeology and the fossil dating, it all fits together quite well. It just doesn't wind up being as ancient as Indians want it to be. It almost certainly is a few centuries before and after 2,000 B. C. E.

    The oldest actual manuscript is from about our year 1,000.

    The final IVC settlements and seals took place around 1,800-1,600 B. C. E. in Gujarat and Maharastra, India.


    From a study that Rg Veda was dealing with the collapse of part of IVC, its wares can be traced to Kurukshetra 1,400 B. C. E.


    I think it is very likely we have evidence that is still standing: Nirmand, Kullu Valley, the "Kashi of the Himalayas".


    And there is a very bizarre concatenation of evidence and literature in Himachal Pradesh.


    On a genetic basis, if there is such a thing as Native Indians, they would be Australic, having Andaman Islanders as the pure type. In HP, Australics are known as Kols and Mundas.

    The second settlers were Mongolians or Kirats.

    These are generally thought to comprise the enemy forces in Rg Veda.

    This is around what we call the River Beas, which is cognate for Vyasa or the "compiler" of literature. So the current form of the Vedas was compiled by Vyasa, and then another, most likely later, Vyasa, collects the Mahabharata. The impossible irony is that the upper end of Kullu Valley is called Manali and "End of the World".

    What becomes physically impossible is that, let us say India imported the Flood Myth, turned around and said Manu landed at Manali to start the human race--it slips the gears.

    There was no Manali, the Kullu Valley was not accessible to Indians or Aryas until defeating the Kols or Kirats. We can physically time this to a given era. The Flood Myth is not in the Veda. It cannot possibly work according to the scenario.

    Manu in the Rg Veda is symbolic, he arises as at least two of the important lineage heads, it is not about a First Man starting the race.

    I would probably deny it is supportable to say that Manu and Ayodhya are "literal" in any way.



    Manali totally changes from "World's End" by around 200 B. C. E., because they came up with a shortcut to the portion of the Silk Road at the Gate of China. It is an insanely difficult trek that passes Leh, Ladakh, but I would think once that route is blazed, it would save you two weeks or maybe a month, from the old way, if you were trying to get into India. And since then, there have always been a few well-to-do classes around Nirmand and Manali.


    The Flood Myth cannot conceivably be compatible with the Veda, but what it does have is Cosmic Water and Terrestrial Rain, much like the myths of Sumeria, Ugarit, and so on.

    When seeing the first significant act of Yhwh was to attack the Rain with Drought, it seemed he had just embodied the enemy forces of the Veda.


    I'm not going to try to insist that Sanskrit was the language of all IVC, but, it seems, towards the end, some of them *must* have joined the Aryas--so if not a total, there should be a partial, match.

    As to whether the seals do or should reflect this in any way, I have no idea.






    Quote In closing I would like to leave you with one consideration. From mentions in astronomy related texts from the Vedic publications, I have found the eight-sided star or eight compartments with one specific god in the center of the circle of eight divisions. The god changes from time to time, but the eight does not. I find this same theme in the Sumerian literature, but with one exception. After much work (believe me) I have discovered what this means. It's not actually eight. It's two groups of four. One designates a slice of space where Enlil, Ninlil, Inanna, and their associates came from originally, and the other where Enlil, Ninhursag, and their group came from, as well as supposedly being the same slice of space that humanity was imported from. The Vedic texts call this area the birthplace of comets. I agree.


    Indian astronomical texts were composed in the range around 200-500.

    Usually a "comet" would signify Ketu, the Dragon's Tail, or Moon's South Node. I am not familiar with the phrase out of the blue. Although I am not a linguist, I have learned it is considered mandatory to cite sources and versions. This is an example where the Chinese have made a horrible mistake. Around 200, they received an Indian astronomical text, along with a story based on Disciple Ananda (Sardulakarna Vadana). The brief story is also part of the much longer and later (ca. 700) Shurangama Sutra, and the Chinese want to use their mistake to prove they had the Shurangama Sutra by 200. It is just a brief narrative, and, an early, basic astronomy work, which is mostly math.

    Now, as for the design, just by scrolling back up, one finds the Eight-Spoked Wheel of Dharma, being traced through the Vedas, theoretically back to IVC. We can be pretty sure the "real" spoked wheel was an invention that came out *during* the events in the Veda.

    My response follows from Atharva Veda, which, most likely, represents the entire art of Vedic composition, from the times of the forefathers, until the final compilation.

    It has Germ Theory but it also has Ayurveda. The important thing about Ayurveda is the Life Winds. And those could follow a similar pattern, although it is usually described as Five Upper and Five Lower.

    However, following the shape of the spoked wheel, then, in our school at least, the representation is like a horizontal cross-section. The center is the Heart, and then there are eight main branches, which would be more like vertical tubes or channels in the body. Depending on focus, you might consider the center as none, one, or two entities, but then the eightfold pattern is something quite common.

    The correct way to read a mandala is that it is, in fact, two circles.

    You have the cardinal directions and then the intermediates. They could all be the same class, or, they could be different, or even reversed.

    It already has a set standard. If you follow this, you never have to "describe" a configuration:

    E, S, W, N

    SE, SW, NW, NE



    In terms of the personifications, my inclination is to say yes, most of the better-crafted archaic myths designate at least two courts of deities, at least broadly separated into a pure immortal, and an incarnation or manifestation.


    Here is a way to put that together with the main differences in Indian and Western Astrology. First of all, the pattern works with Nine Planets. There are nine because of including the Moon's Nodes. Here in a 1400s Nepali is Surya--Sun at the center of Eight Planets:





    Next you notice a second ring of what look like Surya copies. That is because the Indian Zodiac is really just the Sun during the twelve different months.

    The Greeks for example have a web of legends as to who arose as what star sign, and then the Zodiac takes off about a sign such as Sagittarius, whereas in India, the emphasis remains on the Sun during the time of Sagittarius. It ignores the precession and uses the real time that the sun actually is in Sagittarius.

    The Twelve Sun Gods in this sense, are the Adityas, that is, the suns of infinite or transcendental space.

    Surya is the visible sun.

    Yes, this concept is ingrained into probably all the great mythologies.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    [[What becomes physically impossible is that, let us say India imported the Flood Myth, turned around and said Manu landed at Manali to start the human race--it slips the gears.

    There was no Manali, the Kullu Valley was not accessible to Indians or Aryas until defeating the Kols or Kirats. We can physically time this to a given era. The Flood Myth is not in the Veda. It cannot possibly work according to the scenario.]]

    To the Sumerians and their neighbors, the Hittites and Hurrians, the Flood was both much earlier and survivable. It merely caused them to move - with their goods. The Biblical and Babylonian flood myths, on the other hand, were written by the same people - the Elamite-Amorite tribes associated later with one group of Hebrews, the left-hand group. In one of the tablets from 3000 BC it mentions that this group moved down into modern Saudi Arabia, and they knew both early Sumerian, classical Sumerian, and secret writing techniques - these are the ones that I showed wrote the early pieces in Egypt that some were trying to call proto-Canaanite. So your idea of Arabian horses probably fits. And the idea of who may have influenced the Harrapan people when their writing was being perfected might be the same answer.
    The area you show with the Ma'lta is not where the antler carvings that I translated were from - much further north in fact. But it is interesting. I have done similar translations from France all the way to Scotland, through Portugal and down into Macedonia. And of course the one example in South Africa.

    If we could have the artifacts from Doggerland we would have the bridge over which this knowledge flowed, based on their being examples of it on both sides of where those lands went under the waves.

    I freaked out when I first read your post - it reminded me of AI in its inclusiveness. You must have far-reaching research areas.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    Well, one thing that I can say for sure it that the Indus Script is not related to Dravidian.
    And another is that, contrary to scholarly guesses, the writing is left to right, and not like the marks a plow makes when weaving from left-right to right-left on lines.

    It's their modification of early pictographic Sumerian, and was crushed at about the same time as the Sumerians found their own highly-developed civilization slip away from them - and probably for the same reason - the sky gods did not like hidden writing and put them in harms way.

    Early examination of the Easter Island script provides the same multiple use of men-women stick figures in various poses, which, I believe, is their way of expressing the 21 words used for woman that the Sumerians employed, as I first suspected. What I really would like to concentrate on, however, is not the writing found on boat oars, although that resembles the Indus Script most clearly, but the scratches made in the caves by the occupants of the island prior to the Rapa Nui peoples. And the markings made on the buried bottom half of the totems - most of which was only recently discovered and which very quickly went dark.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    Found it! The Indus Script is a deviation or style adaptation of the markings from Anatolia, near Jerf el Ahmar, dating about the same time as Gobekli Tepe and not too far from that site. The stick figure, the bird wings figures and several others are clearly evident. It might be that the Sumerian pictographs evolved from this, as they were living in that area, and perhaps a branch left for the Harappan region very early on. That would make the most sense.

    BTW that was a language isolate, just as the Indus scripts are examples of. So, very early on, migrating people left Anatolia, probably due to the comet strikes that caused floods and led to the burial of Gobekli Tepe, Some became the Sumerians, others migrated into Elam-Afghanistan - Pakistan - Northern India and perhaps beyond, taking some of their language writing skills with them. Later they hook up with the Sumerians who shared that source for writing, and then they were displaced, disappeared, disposed of - much as the Sumerians were.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    Quote Posted by Jim_Duyer (here)
    I freaked out when I first read your post - it reminded me of AI in its inclusiveness. You must have far-reaching research areas.

    You might call it un-revising numerous conclusions that have been reached by numerous authorities and institutions.

    Spanning from the origins of literature, up to--noticing your occasional rips on Wikipedia--we can say that for most of its pages on the Vedas, it uses the German professor Witzel as a main source of commentary. For similar things, we have to use a different website, Dharmapedia Wiki, for the articles derived from G. Talageri. This reflects a thirty-year argument between the two exegetes. We have something like this for almost every subject. Witzel denies Indus Script is letters/sounds/words.

    The main example in Buddhism is probably Nagarjuna. Once a definite individual, later ghost written, attributed to, individuals re-named as, and conflated to, resulting in some disagreements.

    And in fact our current views on history are shaped behind-the-scenes by such things.

    The trouble with arguing against "European Rig Veda ideas" is the chance of going to the "Ultra Indian" view, which is producing results that are entirely too vast and unrealistic, such as e. g. India colonized Ireland in 11,000 B. C. E., whereas the more modest approach such as applied by Talageri gives a "happy medium" avoiding either extreme of "too young and stupid" or "too old and wise". We could reasonably say the country of India dropped research on Dwarka, not because it appears to be real, but, because it is not old enough to suit the prejudices of "astrological dating".


    Anywhere else in the world, the presumed spoken Sanskrit when found in the same time and place as a series of writings, would automatically lead to the conclusion the two are identical.

    We will avoid presuming that, since, Vedic Aryas must have arisen in the Ganges-Yamuna doab, and, subsequently, partially mixed with some number of IVC tribes or kingdoms. The IVC may or may not have spoken Sanskrit, but, most likely did not originally have the mythology or rites of the Vedas. Instead, probably in a pre-Vedic era, they reflexively absorbed the idea of writing from Elam and Akkadia. If that amounts to "a script", then, nominally, the Aryas would have ignored it.

    It may be that western kings implored the Aryas for military assistance, and, in turn, received the Vedas. That is perhaps why the Ramayana loses track of some royal lineages who moved west and never came back. Although it is not a scripture, the events of Ramayana should probably be considered the next oldest to, and least deviant from, the Rg Veda.

    It most likely took place during the period of "Vedic composition" and probably meets the tail end of IVC.



    For the Seals, a characteristic problem is there are no long passages of writing. There are sometimes eight, to maybe twelve characters, and the largest discovery is about seventeen.

    In that case, there are not really patterns of writing that can be ported around and compared to other references. They do not appear to represent repeated sounds, or common words like "and".

    There are, however, certain patterns among them. Concerning the relative value of the seals, entire collections were tossed in the trash:




    Quote An additional six copies of these tablets, again all with the same inscriptions, were found elsewhere in the debris outside of perimeter wall [250] including two near the group of 16 and two in debris between the perimeter and curtain walls. Here all 22 tablets are displayed together with a unicorn intaglio seal from the Period 3B street inside the perimeter wall, which has two of the same signs as those found on the tablets. (See also 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60).Quoting from R.H. Meadow and J.M. Kenoyer's article in South Asian Archaeology 1997 (Rome, 2001): "It is tempting to think that the evident loss of utility and subsequent discard of the tablets is related to the “death” of the seal. Seals are almost always found in trash or street deposits (and never yet in a grave) indicating that they were either lost or intentionally discarded, the latter seeming the more likely in most instances. The end of the utility of a seal must relate to some life event of its owner, whether change of status, or death, or the passing of an amount of time during which the seal was considered current. A related consideration is that apparently neither seals nor tablets could be used by just anyone or for any length of time because otherwise they would not have fallen out of circulation. Thus the use of seals -- and of tablets -- was possible only if they were known to be current. Once they were no longer current, they were discarded. This would help explain why a group of 16 (or 18) tablets with the same inscriptions, kept together perhaps in a cloth or leather pouch, could have been deposited with other trash outside of the perimeter wall of Mound E."

    So, a whole series might be relevant to one person, for a given reason.

    Most of those are three-sided. That's not a trivial amount of "stuff" to throw in one bag. But they, themselves, are trivial, neither grave treasures nor important enough to be smashed with a hammer.

    Most of them feature an animal, most of which are identifiable, except for a few like this scriptless chimera:






    It does include what is called "Unicorn" which is probably the *most common* find, shown here in a series with variable numbers of glyphs:
























    Note this animal almost always appears with an unknown object, which happens to resemble the Mandaean Lamp.


    It is either an intentional profile, or, a one-horned animal, such as even having been found as a 3D figurine, leading to the opinion of Benedetti and Parpola:


    Quote ...the authors of the Indus seals intended to depict a mythical ṛśya with one long horn. And this mythical figure, associated (possibly identified) with Indra and Prajāpati, was transformed in the later tradition into a Ṛṣi bringer of rain and fertility, presented as a son (in the Vaṃśa Brāhmaṇa) or descendant of Kaśyapa, the Ṛṣi creator of living beings.



    But as to the possible relation of IVC to Vedic rites. One thing that may not be commonly known about an Agni temple is that it builds a fire that reaches the temperature of the Sun. And one finds a decision process that led them to handle it with an earthen vessel. In turn, the vessel was handled by tongs made of a pair of S-shaped unicorn horns in the view of Vajracharya:


    Quote More importantly, our findings indicate that Vedic Aryans were familiar with some ecological
    aspects of the Indus Valley civilization, such as the animal habitats that existed around them. In
    our earlier work, we demonstrated that the popularity of the pipal tree in the Indus seals as a
    most important symbol of the civilization correlates with the significance of the tree mentioned
    in Vedic texts as a harbinger of monsoon. Vedic word for the pipal tree is asvattha, which was
    also the name of the early month of monsoon in the everyday language of ancient India, mainly
    in the upper Indus Valley. Such correlation prods us to develop a research methodology based
    on the ecologically linked cultural aspects of the Indus and Vedic civilizations.


    Whether it was a real unicorn, or, a profile of an antelope that normally has two horns, I do not know. But here we would find the main connecting factor which is actually the Tree.

    Ficus religiosa:


    It is also known as the bodhi tree, pimple tree, peepul tree, peepal tree, pipala tree, ashvattha tree (in India and Nepal), or Asathu (ඇසතු) in Sinhala.



    As soon as we hit the name "asvatta" it means "horses stand under it" and this indeed would be the very foundation of Vedic and Yogic belief and practice.

    The "halter or blanket" on the Unicorn is considered a "pipal leaf shape", but, more tellingly, this is called a Pipal Tree with two Unicorn Heads:




    As the "horned deity" is also found with one, it appears instead of "temples" that IVC had three tree deities. That begins with Bulls tethered to three different trees. The article remains speculative.

    The Pipal is also on the Procession Seal with a Zebu Bull and Seven Sisters--Pleiades (?). Or, it is a Human-faced Ram, not a bull. The exalted figure probably has a horned crown similar to Hathor of Egypt, etc.

    Fig is an inflorescence that must be pollinated by a wasp, is virtually pan-Indic, and:


    The earliest known record of Ficus religiosa in human culture is the use of peepal leaf motifs in the pottery of the Helmand culture, found at Mundigak site, in Kandahar, Afghanistan, dating back to third millennium (ca. 2,700) BCE.

    F. religiosa has a lifespan ranging between 900 and 1,500 years. The Jaya Sri Maha Bodhi tree in the city of Anuradhapura in Sri Lanka is estimated to be more than 2,250 years old.



    Helmand is not IVC and does have temples and palaces.

    Arguably, a leaf design on pottery does not say as much as trees holding exalted people, heroes (?) or demi-gods (?) as is found in the seals.

    In the "Procession", my reaction to girls with Plume Headdresses is they are Sabaris, i. e., tribals such as Bhils, Kols, "Dravidians", who were generally "outside" of the Aryas or Buddhists, but were sought and coveted, certainly by Buddhists anyway. They are "Shakti" in most respects.

    They are phenomenally relevant to the semi-suppressed methods of Atharva Veda.

    Not simply for "conversion" purposes, either, but more for their own raw power.

    So I am not quite sure the seal tells me any astronomical details about the Pleiades, but, it certainly appears to combine Sabaris with the Asvattha Tree, which is a major underpinning of our whole tradition.

    The ram or goat may be found around pdf p. 381 of Parpola's 1987 Corpus. Not very common or prominent but recognizable (he even has a bunny rabbit in there which is actually cute).

    UNESCOsays:


    There are some extraneous elements, like the figures of Gilgamesh and Enkidu, also
    appearing in Indus seals.


    Really? So.

    There was a somewhat complex mythology of the Bull in Sumeria and Egypt, which happens to be around the beginning of the Age of Taurus, or within it.

    The mythology cannot physically or verbally exist without the presence of Lapis Lazuli, which was already provisioned.

    As the Bull also has to do with rains or fertility, the period ends around the Droughts of the Meghalayan Age, which approximates the beginning of the Age of Aries the Ram.

    The Ram is then known as the vehicle of Agni, who is central to the Vedas and the myths incorporated into the Asvattha Tree.

    And so if I find a seal that appears to show a party of Sabaris, Fig Trees, and an unusual Ram, it looks almost exactly like I am looking at the beginning of the Age of Aries and the teachings that are drawn forth through the Vedas.


    Originally, we cannot see why it would not be the same Bull El of Canaan, in fact the Mandaeans specifically record Tauriel as a name of Abatur, and, designate a second Bull, Qadiael, as an assistant of Adam. I think the Sumerian and Egyptian legends may be similar. There are similarly "higher and lower" deities, waters, suns, bulls, breaths, throughout most of these, until evidently Elijah and Yhwh attack it and attempt to confine the whole spectrum to the Demiurge.


    Along with the Fig, the other trees primarily depicted in the seals are thought to be Sami (coniferous) and Bilvum (rose apple) or Neem.

    Is this tremendously different from the Sacred Groves of the Druids, having Oak as the most powerful?

    As a reader of symbolism, my instinct would be to trace the significance of Indus Seals by the Trees.

    Bharatkalyan takes the approach that the animals are metals or alloys and their respective guilds.

    Not knowing if this is really the case, we can find that prior to coinage, ingots and weights of various metals were used as stores of value.

    However, Iron was not really available until the Age of Aries (except meteoric iron). The Hittites temporarily monopolized it, but then, by around 1,380 B. C. E., finding an Arya Dynasty in the same area, there is a strong chance this may have been due to the wealth from steel slugs, because India is the real source of Wootz Steel or Damascus Steel. At first, this probably was worth more than gold. The technology is observed in the later Vedas, which matches the timing.


    This is what originally got my attention, because there is an intense fusion of esoterism, metaphysics, and history in the real Bharat Jana:


    Quote This narrative explains the presene of Indus Script (Meluhha) seal in Bogazkoy, dated ca. 1400 BCE. A remarkable coincidence is that the Bogazkoy treaty is dated to the fourteenth century BCE. In a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni between Suppiluliuma and Shattiwaza, c. 1380 BC, the deities Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Nasatya (Ashvins) are invoked.

    which he explains merely historically:


    Quote Ayu migrated eastwards. His (people) are the Kuru-Pancalas and the Kasi-Videhas. This is the Ayava (migration). Amavasu migrated westwards. His (people) are the Ghandhari, Parsu and Aratta. This is the Amavasu (migration).

    without mentioning he is commenting one of the most important parts of Rg Veda.

    This is so, because "Ayu" is Life, or Life Wind, such as in Ayurveda. And so we are still dealing with a semi-Garden of Eden and a divine Primordial Man and the task of manifestation. However, in the objective sense, he is also referring to the important forthcoming dynasties of India, post-Vedic wars.

    The treaty is compatible with Aryas and Mandaeans:


    Quote ...the Storm-god, Lord of Heaven and Earth, the Moon-god and the Sun-god, the Moon-god of Harran, heaven and earth, the Storm-god, Lord of the kurinnu of Kahat, the Deity of Herds of Kurta, the Storm-god, Lord of Uhušuman, Ea-šarri, Lord of Wisdom, Anu, Antu, Enlil, Ninlil, the Mitra-gods, the Varuna-gods, Indra, the Nasatya-gods, Lord of Waššukanni, the Storm-god, Lord of the Temple Platform (?) of Irrite, Partahi of Šuta, Nabarbi, Šuruhi, Ištar, Evening Star, Šala, Belet-ekalli, Damkina, Išhara, the mountains and rivers, the deities of heaven and the deities of earth.

    He reduced Akhenaten in Syria and Canaan and turned around and died from Egyptian plague.

    The above confirms that Vedic deities were at parity with understanding all the way to Harran.

    Probably Egypt as well, but, we could understand why their gods are excluded by this treaty.


    On pdf p.28, Witzel, in claiming the Harappans were illiterate, credits them with unity, a lack of monuments, or large standing armies. Green thinks Sumerian seals were, and Indus seals were not, used to promote debt inequality.

    If IVC was relatively unarmed, it makes sense they might call upon the Aryas for protection.


    When looking at symbols moreso than writing, from Gandabherunda as the symbol of Karnataka:


    Historically, such a bird is found on a mural that dates back to 3600 BC in Persepolis, of the Hakkan civilisation, now in Iran. Another is found in an inscription at Boğazköy, now in Turkey, dating back to 1500 BC.


    Being also Hittite:


    The double-headed eagle motif has been used as an emblem by countries, nations, and royal houses in Europe
    since the early medieval period. Notable examples include the Byzantine House of Palaiologos, the Holy Roman
    Empire, the House of Habsburg, and the Ruriks and Romanovs of Russia.


    The Simorgh of Avestan, or, intending the Bogazkoy Seal, Homa bird Syena or Sena "brings down" Soma.

    Usually translated "hawk", then yes this is completely significant to the Rg Veda.

    The basic formula involves using a fire hot as the Sun--intellectually learnable. The ultimate process is Soma Offering which is thoroughly mystical.

    Most mythologies seem to access a similar basic pattern, but, I am not sure any of them can follow where the Vedic Soma Offering is going. That may just be because they are gone, since arguably it could resemble the "mystery religion".

    Although, in India, this is largely in the story of Agni and the Pleiades, I would try not to "force" that on the Procession Seal. On the other hand, it is difficult to "prevent" it from coming across as a bunch of Sabaris and something sacred involving an Asvattha Tree.

    That's very tantalizing.

    I can take the seal, and explain it with 3,000 years of Sanskrit literature, and, significant portions of most other mythologies, or, figure it must be unrelated.

    The Tree is what I find particularly compelling and convincing, especially because it has other appearances.

    In one sense, the Asvattha is the alphabet, is language.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    UPDATE:
    You may recall that I mentioned in a previous post that most of the truly ancient writings on antlers and bone can be translated using an alphabet that I devised (syllabic) along with the earliest spoken language - Aquitaine, which is today only preserved in the Basque language. In Basque we find that their word for "axe" is "stone axe", testifying to their early age. Add to that the fact that the Cro-Magnons arose nearby and that they have the highest RH negative blood, presents other pieces of the puzzle.

    So imagine my surprise when looking yestday into Easter Island writing.

    Their Oral histories recount how various people used divine power to command the statues (Moai) to walk. The earliest accounts say a king named Tuu Ku Ihu moved them with the help of the god Makemake, while later stories tell of a woman who lived alone on the mountain ordering them about at her will. The mythical king Tuu Ku Ihu moved the famous island statues to their present positions with divine help.

    Tuu Ku is a Basque word (ttuku-ttuku) and it means "in small, halting steps." So apparently the king caused them to move, but slowly.

    Ihu could be either the Basque word (b)ihu(n), which means "soft, gentle," or perhaps the Basque word (b)ihu(r), meaning "a fold in a rope, twisted, twisted rope," or perhaps (o)ihu, meaning "to shout."
    bihur = a fold in a rope, twisted
    oihu = shout

    All of which could describe the soft, gentle movements in halting steps aided in surmounting some obstacles by folded or twisted ropes. Because even sky-gods need a hand from the king from time to time. And shouting when it was accomplished? Why not?

    Makemake (also written as Make-make or MakeMake; pronounced ['make'make] in Rapa Nui, this word indicates their mythology of Easter Island concerning the creator of humanity, the god of fertility and the chief god of the bird-man cult (this cult succeeded the island's more famous Moai era).

    Basque word "maker" = surly, disagreeable, rude

    The Chief god chief god of the "Tangata manu" or bird-man cult is found in the Basque word "tanta or tanto", meaning "to drop". As in, bird-men that drop from the mountains or the sky.
    And the Basque word manu means "order, command", and so the bird-men of their cult dropped from the sky by command of someone or something.

    No, I do not believe it was the Basque themselves who made the trip to Easter Island, and No, I do not believe that early sailors, many of whom were Basque, taught the natives those words. I believe that the same way in which this ancient writing and alphabet spread from South Africa to the United States and from Russia to Scotland, was also spread to Easter Island. Or more properly, we should ask whether it originated in the Pacific and then spread to all the places I mentioned.

    BTW - the same birds carved into the stone statues and into the rocks near the caves on Easter Island, and I mean the same ones, can be found in Gobekli Tepe as well as in Mohenjo Daro.

    BTW - a few years ago they fully uncoverd one of the statues on Easter Island for the first time. Why the first time - wouldn't you think that archaeologists would wish to examine the entire artifact? That is, unless they already knew what they might find and did not wish to do so. But when they did, there were markings, in some ancient language, on the part that had been previously hidden under the earth. You will not find images of this, at least no clear ones. I suspect that it is very similar to the writings in Gobekli Tepe and the predecessor to the Sumerian and Harappan writings.

    I will say this - the first time, several years ago, that my computer melted down due to a "virus", and I lost both my hard drive and my backup somehow, and my mother board was fried as well as my computer memory, I was attempting to learn more about what is carved and buried on Easter Island. That's why I mentioned that I am more interested in the markings in the caves there than their Indus-like script. Time will tell if I can obtain this somehow. But I am sure that my computer "accidents" were just that. Right.

    The Gobekli Tepe area markings look more like the Harappan-Indus script than the early Sumerian, although both can be deciphered using the other. The Easter Island script on their paddles looks like Gobekli Tepe and Harappan-Indus and less like early Sumerian.

    My gut tells me the source was the South Pacific, spread to Easter Island and very probably other islands in the Pacific (the ones that the entire world has not made radioactive via nuclear bomb testing) then it moved into Anatolia (Turkey) where the Sumerians adapted and modified it, and then on to Pakistan where they also modified it, but less than the Sumerians did.

    There are Basque-English dictionaries online to check my findings above - Prof. Trask made the best one.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    shaberon - I'm using this separately so that it does not get added to my last post by some magic of the system.
    I have a few comments on your excellent contribution:

    [[Instead, probably in a pre-Vedic era, they reflexively absorbed the idea of writing from Elam and Akkadia. If that amounts to "a script", then, nominally, the Aryas would have ignored it.]] They assign or align it with Elamite. This is just another cheap magicians trick - look over here, while they pull your wallet out of your pocket. At the time that the tablet with Harappan writing was uncovered in Elam, it was a satellite of Sumeria - an outpost or governorship with appointed rulers by the Sumerians who had captured it. The Elamites had their own (entirely goofy) writings, and are not in any way the source of the Harappan. That's beyond dispute because they can not be translated with Elamite, only with Sumerian. Yes, most of the surrounding civilizations used Sumerian cuneiform - but always with their own language as the underlying language - and this has Sumerian as the underlying. The only group that did that, other than the Sumerians, was their neighbors in the old lands - the Hurrians. And it doesn't exhibit the Hurrian style, even though the Hurrians had outposts nearby the Elamites - the Sabians, for example, were a tribe of Hurrian affiliated peoples.
    [[ In that case, there are not really patterns of writing that can be ported around and compared to other references. They do not appear to represent repeated sounds, or common words like "and".]] The Sumerians have a word for "and". I have never seen it employed, in several hundreds of tablets. Our scholars assure me that it has been used, but then they feebly point to some Akkadian or Old Babylonian tablet, and that will not match, time-wise. I nearly always preface this with "absent a time-machine" but I won't do so anymore - someone might think I was serious. Eeeks!
    [[ Note this animal [Unicorn] almost always appears with an unknown object, which happens to resemble the Mandaean Lamp.]] Funny, I never saw it as a lamp. To my eyes it looks very clearly like a sailing vessel. And probably a sailing vessel would be implied in the importation of such a rare creature - known only to the Harappans and the Hebrews apparently obtained from some far land. Or it may have even existed at one time - I don't honestly know.

    [[the authors of the Indus seals intended to depict a mythical ?sya with one long horn. And this mythical figure, associated (possibly identified) with Indra and Prajapati, was transformed in the later tradition into a ??i bringer of rain and fertility, presented as a son (in the Va?sa Brahma?a) or descendant of Kasyapa, the ??i creator of living beings.]] Well, your knowledge exceeds mine in this area.

    [[Along with the Fig, the other trees primarily depicted in the seals are thought to be Sami (coniferous) and Bilvum (rose apple) or Neem.]] More importantly, in my opinion, have you seen any depictions of pomegranates? William Blake, that esoteric Englishman, was absolutely in command of very ancient knowledge that a great many have tried to keep from mankind. He posited that Lilith, who survives only in mythical form in the stories of the Rabbi that did not make the bibles, was the one offering, not an apple, but a pomegranate, to Eve in the Garden. And by the way, his Lilith had six toes on each feet, according to one version of his art that is not widely circulated but which I have on my desktop. Anyway, he posits that Lilith offered this fruit due to its known properties in abortion or birth control, later noted by the Romans and Greeks. As to why she might need that, he offers quite a bit of detail, including the supposed "father", but I will leave that up to those interested enough to read his works, which are excellent. Let's just say that he would have made, or was, a great Gnostic priest.


    [[Quote ...the Storm-god, Lord of Heaven and Earth, the Moon-god and the Sun-god, the Moon-god of Harran, heaven and earth, the Storm-god, Lord of the kurinnu of Kahat, the Deity of Herds of Kurta, the Storm-god, Lord of Uhušuman, Ea-šarri, Lord of Wisdom, Anu, Antu, Enlil, Ninlil, the Mitra-gods, the Varuna-gods, Indra, the Nasatya-gods, Lord of Waššukanni, the Storm-god, Lord of the Temple Platform (?) of Irrite, Partahi of Šuta, Nabarbi, Šuruhi, Ištar, Evening Star, Šala, Belet-ekalli, Damkina, Išhara, the mountains and rivers, the deities of heaven and the deities of earth.]] Everything listed his is either Akkadian or Amorite-Elamite (the early tribes of the Sim'alite Hebrews, or what would later become half of the Hebrews) and wrote in the Babylonian period. None has its source in Sumerian literature.


    [[Witzel, in claiming the Harappans were illiterate, credits them with unity, a lack of monuments, or large standing armies. Green thinks Sumerian seals were, and Indus seals were not, used to promote debt inequality.]] This Witzel sounds like a real tool. Was he a proclaimed Nazi or did he hide his affiliations? Green is not only another tool but an ignorant one. The Sumerians loaned money with either no or low interest, repayable in crops or yields, or trade goods. Women owned property, were scribes and priests, sometimes even ruled Sumeria, were goddesses in some cases, and infractions of the law were repaid with fines in most cases. The Babylonians, consisting of early Hebrew tribes combined with their Elamite neighbors and some Assyrians (whom they ruled) introduced loads repayable only in silver. And then they rushed to conquer and control all of the sources of silver. They introduced the eye for an eye, tooth for tooth type of civil and criminal laws, and changed the goddesses into gods. Women were property of their husbands, and you know the rest. This is not me speaking, all of these claims are backed by historical records. They also took the Sumerian tablets, that they felt they "owned" as conquerors, and rewrote, in much expanded versions, the epics for the benefit of themselves and to solidify their rule over the few, pathetic, remnants of the Sumerian people. Historical and cultural genocide by these "swarming" hordes of invaders.

    Thanks for the clues on the Vedic connections. I'm working on some more examples of Indus Script today.

    BTW - I found a website that claims there is a $10,000 reward to anyone who can successfully translate at least 50 characters of the Indus Script. I'm on 21 today.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    Yes, it did spread from Anatolia to India and not vice-versa. The next translation says: Our forefathers were overwhelmed by troops, whose descendants gave birth to the worship of the Earth Mother.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    Shaberon - I've found the connection that you mentioned with tree, or fig tree.

    One of the fish symbols in the Indus script translates (3000 BC) to "(to be) thick; to thicken; (to be) wide; to swell, bloat; to give birth (to); (to be) pregnant; pregnancy; grandson; descendant; seedling; innards; to breathe; to gather"
    But the same symbol is also used, just a bit later (2500 BC) to denote: a fig, a fig tree
    In Sumerian I should mention.

    And if we think about it, an idea of expanding, trees of generations, seedlings, etc. fits inside of the tree motif as well.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    For 30 years the UCLA team has been on site at Easter Island. Out of thousand or so statues, they have dug up only two, and they publish only one of those, and they only publish a portion of the writings on the back. Coincidence I'm sure.
    The back says, in Sumerian from 3500 BC or prior, pretty clearly, THE WHOLE FOUNDATION IS THE SUN.
    The vulture images there, including one who is rolling an egg, is identical to Gobekli Tepe and also found
    in Mohenjo Daro.

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    Default Re: The Indus script, aka the Harappan script, aka the WTH? - Deciphered.

    Woah, there are over a thousand of those things over there! That's so incredible. The public image provided of those statues are usually just the 7-8 of them lined up in a row. I thought those were the only ones there. There being 1000 of them changes the entire image that one forms of those statues and their presence.

    I bet that it's forbidden to dig the others out too. I wonder about all that could be discovered written on those statues.

    I find it strange that the natives did not dig some of the statues out themselves (or maybe they did?). In many parts of the world, seeing partially buried statues would have triggered the curiosity of the people living there and there would be at least a few dug out.

    I wonder what kind of myths and legends they have on those islands. It must be pretty magical living there.

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