Cheating

[Hym]

I sometimes forget the soulful value of some here on Avalon, until I am reminded by the beauty of those like Helene and Others. I am grateful for the constant value given and received.



Yes, to me the entirety of this subject is the lack of honesty from one mate to another. Helene, as is her gift, puts it all into perspective. Since we have gone there, and it is all very good to do, I'll add what I can to support TargeT's insight and highly responsible outlook, especially given all he has shared with us.


To the point, there is no replacement or adjustment that can be made for wide differences in integrity and nothing much can be done to bridge a gap of soul awareness that the two have. I beg to differ, my friend, that this woman is any more advanced and together than you in this one area where we all should have a clear sight of it's presence. Quite the opposite, and this is a judgement of the how the truth was revealed to you. Here are some insights we can share with you, all based on hard won experiences we have earned.

Why did TargeT put it all out in this thread called "Cheating"? His answer lives in his choice of the thread. It was not just for us friends to give him back some supportive, maybe insightful and hard truths to help him get thru this in the best way possible. He could have made or found a thread called "Support" or anything else. But you didn't.

Skipping over the lack of honesty is denying your own value. If there are other things you think you need to change in yourself, whatever they may be, it misses the subject of your own truth and your humanity to deny the hurt, a hurt you did not place on someone else, but the hurt you have endured. The quicker you see this is the quicker you get on with living beyond the pain and the anger, both things that are not worth the attention after you recognize their place in your growth and have learned, in your own way, to use them as incentives to live a happier life.


Adapting in the ways you have described, in what seems a very commendable way as you are now doing, is maybe the most dishonest thing you can do to yourself. I am not advocating anything but amicable resolution, because the kindness you put out in dissolving the dishonesty-yours-not hers (something only she can do), as it lives in your life now, will supportively present itself to you as you move on, in unexpected and gratifying ways, guaranteed.

Dishonesty is always painful and it is wrong, unnatural and hurtful to all involved. I didn't state this obvious truth because I was impressed by whatever depth of the process you were revealing, and it is honorable. Value that! However, it is very superficial and self-defeating to see others truths via the vehicle of your own martyrdom. There are much easier ways to exercise your humanity and strengthen your heart then getting your value trampled on by someone you entrusted so much heart and soul in. There is no excuse for that. Don't create excuses for them finding their way into your thoughts. Dishonesty cannot be adapted to. It, like honesty itself, is.

The deeper, more honest, self-directed questions may not be why he didn't see this divergence in ethics and morality between his wife and himself, but why he gives her an over thought out series of passes just to keep her. This is what must be faced directly by our friend.

The greatest of gifts in life sometimes have a price that challenge our self worth. Can we let go of that prize, that comfort, that beauty, that job, that woman, that friend, if it demands we overlook the truth? I hope so, because letting it go may be the only way to value something that even dishonest mates cannot disagree about. It's something I have learned living amongst people of this age, something that defines their place in the spaces in between, where the soul has value that is recorded somewhere in the song of the timeless memories we all, at one time, have access to.


The fact is she was already gone a while back..

And, we're not even talking about the kids.

May you both do well moving on

[TargeT]

Posted by Hym (here)
Dishonesty cannot be adapted to. It, like honesty itself, is.

But I've lied out of panic, I've lied to "save" someones feelings... Yes the dishonesty was the knife that is still twisting; but baby, bathwater... toss it all out?

7 years of peaks and valleys, I see a lot of it as good; I'm not so sure of her perspective anymore but she's adament that I was never being left behind, just added to.. she has stopped speaking to "the other" (though the circumstances make it almost have to be that way) and we have had many deep; and often quite conflicting discussons on our feelings and how we react or precieve what we think the other is saying... and how often it's completely different than the intended message (I think this is a great step forward for us in communication at least).

If nothing else I am going to stick through this, she knows nothing about this as I haven't been able to hedge my strong "not at all" stance to her yet.. I really want to work this through so there is no resentment if I agree to this very unorthadox step forward... but at the same time this is the woman I've drank Pee with in my bathroom in Alaska... I don't see how I'll find another gem like her ... and not just because I could convince her to drink pee with me... haha!


We just had another interesting day (day 6: post honesty) and there is a lot of anger and suppressed resentment on both sides due to lack of communication. I think if nothing else we will both gain communication skills that are obviously needed.

I liked the rest of your post as well, I just felt like pulling out the dishonesty part and saying I do not see her as a dishonest person.... more a person who has seperation anxiety and saw a mistake that could end what she feared to loose... if that fear was not based in love, we will find out; but I do not think it was just fear alone.

I do think she loves me and even if she wants to involve someone else, in her mind I don't think she see's me as anything less. This maybe the hardest part I am having to reconcile with, that I can still be me with a partner that is not "just mine". Even just reading that makes the answer seem obvious.. yea? I don't own anybody... I'm not even sure how much of my body is my own....


Interesting times!

[Flash]

It could be interesting, if you have time, to revise the threads that have been done about women throughout the years, where you were writing. I remember asking you to ask you wife about how she sees whatever you were writing, because to me, it made no "woman" sense at times.

We all have to learn sometimes through hurts and hard lessons. Even when we were shown or told years before.

I am not the one to give any advice on any couple relationships, having been quite deficient in those myself.

But one thing I understand about relationships is that knowledge of oneself, openess to the other and mostly paramount is love between the two. And for me, love can be share and given to many, but time cannot.

To build a relation takes time and constant gardening, throughout life. With a polyamorous relationship, time for gardening is often missing. Then a choice has to be made. Otherwise depth of the relation will be missing - my opinion.

[TargeT]

Posted by Flash (here)
To build a relation takes time and constant gardening, throughout life. With a polyamorous relationship, time for gardening is often missing. Then a choice has to be made. Otherwise depth of the relation will be missing - my opinion.

This has been the only solid counter I can think of, and the more I think of it the more important it is... yes, time is very minute as we know it; and I just don't see how a third person fits into a relationship that is working well, I DO see that our relationship was not working well for her and I had a role in this, and have things to work on myself. However, I do not see; aside from time and the limited resource it is being taken into consideration, why this topic is so emotional that I have gone places I've never been before with myself.

Why it's shaken the very core image I have of who I am, made me question things I've never questioned before. A very powerful FEELING situation.

[Hym]

Throw it all out? Not what I see, what with the way we and our intimates are all connected....past intense memories living in some parts of our present loving ties, a few mutual friends, moving away from inter-dependency, habits shared together, respect of each other's times alone, the uniqueness we loved in each other.....all hopefully evolving into no more need to accept the lack of will power or absence of self-discovery on the part of a partner.

I understand why people are not enjoying monogamy, but that has little to do with evolving and being a more loving person. Making a connection with an agreement of mutual, loving, interdependency and then "evolving" into poly-partnerships is simply deceitful, an oxymoron, and it certainly isn't making anyone a more whole person.

Describing love as owning or selfish or possessive is not accurate and merely a meme used to diffuse the power of love. Geez! Desensitize myself to connections? Why would I accept cheating from a woman when I don't do it or accept it when men I know do it to women, or when a woman wants to date me without being honest and ending it with her man? That has irked me from the first days of dating and it hasn't stopped. What's the difference? Hey....let's both be dumb together.....No way. I choose the affirmative of mutual respect.

Denying the power of the human experience with one love alone is another deception laid upon humans and it is cloaked in the external, time-stealing facade of desire, intentionally meant to destroy the power of monogamous intimacy.

I was thinking of the slow loss of the connections my wife and I had as she left, me and my son, and being still enough to look at her and enjoying those things I know I loved in her....and I never wanted to hear of her doing poorly, only enjoying her life and having love that helped her along her way. In the end the most I have left of her is the one last kiss we shared in her hospital bed, not knowing or wanting to know if there was a boyfriend waiting to say goodbye to her also, when we left that house of death.

.....remembering all of those things, and how I chose not to be abused in any way, life has never returned to any of the pain I felt all of those years ago, before I left her and she returned on honest terms, well, honest in terms of sexual monogamy at least.

Of course I would be remiss if I didn't note that even with that renewed honesty from her, she ended up hiding a more tragic dishonesty, with her hidden drug abuse during her pregnancy, that led to my son's severe dyslexia-turned by his will power alone into some unique gifts, and the self-destructive abuse of alcohol which led to her death.

It is hard for someone holding on to such deep emotional dishonesty not to find another avenue for some other deceit, manifesting in self-destructive or aggressive, revenge-fueled activity. Present anger tells of a guilt whose origins were fostered in a fear of being rejected in her formative years, before the presence of any children. However, again, only she can unlock that cell door and free herself to grow beyond the pain. Some say that love does this for others, risking it all-beyond any personal connections we have, and I agree, but it is a much higher love and not part of the agreement we make with each other, as it is a special form of self-sacrifice that goes beyond what's expected. I would advise not to go there, while in this present state of emotional intensity, if you ever so choose.

None of this is easy and asking or suggesting anyone other than myself to move forward one way or another, by prompting a love to face the origins of it's own lack of honesty probably won't happen. It is a path with few rewards or clear means of traveling to positive ends. All that can be hoped for is the power of trusting what you feel as real, while almost all else is not direct and certainly not alive with mutual respect, as you have told.

You do know yourself and I do see some growth coming from your taking this path of some sort of reconciliation, but this is the least recommended path in learning something you did not instigate or plan. Most of the intimacy and affection you need will be questioned, withheld, and even attacked.

Anger and resentment is best understood and resolved at the distance that only the power of self acknowledgement can give.
All of the best for the both of you, and may only insight and strength of character be gained by any children in the presence of both of you.

[heretogrow]

Dear Target,
I think what I hear you saying about your relationship with your wife is that you yourself have not always shown the most physical, emotional and soulful aspects of your love for her when you felt that she may have needed it most. In this respect, now that she has shared with you what means she thinks she has found to make her life happy, you are willing to consider trying to reconcile with her wishes and add this new dimension to your marriage. In a sense you are saying you both are not perfect and you are trying to face this and own it as mature adults. Mentally, that makes sense. And it is very honorable to attempt to be understanding when someone honestly tells what they feel will make your marriage work.

But please be quite honest with yourself. You are an insightful, reflective and intelligent man. What I hear from your anger, resentment and confusion that you feel from her cheating, is that you wish that the person she could share true intimacy, explore together and find satisfaction and grow with is you. You are considering her exploring this but deep down you want to figure out why these feelings and this opportunity for growth are not happening between just the two of you inside your own relationship.

You are already aware, from the hurt that you feel, that this is not right for you. But you feel you love her enough to try to reconcile with her request. I am just trying to understand if this is where you are coming from. I may have misinterpreted what you are trying to express. But from what I see if I am understanding you correctly, you are almost letting her do her thing, all the while hoping deep in your heart that she will realize that what you two have I real and she will become committed once again to your relationship.

It is kind of like that saying, "If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you, it is yours. If it doesn't, it never was" Since we are dealing with people here, add complexities of relationships, this saying doesn't truly fit, but you get my gist. We don't own each other, but when we love each other and want to remain close we definitely consider our spouse our 'other half'.

My biggest concern for you, is that in trying this, you are opening yourself up to the possibility that she may find someone else and grow closer to them, fulfilling more than just physical needs. It seems to me, and please this is just an observation, that you will be selling your chances of rekindling that true intimacy between you short. While your willingness to experiment with this seems unselfish and admirable, it may become way to emotionally loaded in the end, and it may backfire, creating much more pain for you than you now realize.

I am not trying to sway you either way. I am not married and in a committed relationship. Cheating has crossed my mind. In fact it has been on my mind a lot lately. I have opened up to find my own answers and thus stumbled on this thread this morning. Synchronicity...I know this is so hard for you. My only advice is to be honest with her and to be brutally honest with yourself. I don't expect it will be easy but it is a chance for soul growth. Much love and best of luck to you!

Julia

[TargeT]

Posted by Helene West (here)
I'll shut up now and be on my way as I'm not identifying with much of yours or her way of thinking and I will come across sounding negative when I had wanted initially to sound supportive. I wish you the very best.

well you aren't privy to the whole situation either, I've shared a lot more than I thought I would but am still carefully editing I suppose which leaves room for the imagination to fill in.


we have never been officially married, I call her my wife and treat her as such; she wears my grandmothers wedding ring but I don't have a ring on. everything in this thread is a culmination of 6 years of experience, none of this happened when we first met, in fact I'd say she's a completely different person from the one I met in Alaska, though she shares some of the same attributes. she doesn't want to "whore around" she wants to have more deep relationships than just me (for some reason I think the "whoring around" might be easier to deal with).

The fact that I think she should live her life to the fullest and not curtail it for me is my own personal thought on her and her history; not a widely applicable statement for every relationship. we are all "very different" and when we mix "very different's" together we get some strange things at times.

I live on a very interesting island, adultery and promiscuity are RAMPANT and alternative lifestyles are very acceptable here; I'm sure this is what kick-started this situation but I don't feel like it was anything but a catalyst for what was already there.

Posted by heretogrow (here)
Dear Target,
I think what I hear you saying about your relationship with your wife is that you yourself have not always shown the most physical, emotional and soulful aspects of your love for her when you felt that she may have needed it most.

I agree, I over committed and made life changes I wasn't fully happy with, then I got very internalized for a long time as I tried to deal with that, which made me ignore her a lot more than anyone deserves

Posted by heretogrow (here)
you wish that the person she could share true intimacy, explore together and find satisfaction and grow with is you. You are considering her exploring this but deep down you want to figure out why these feelings and this opportunity for growth are not happening between just the two of you inside your own relationship.

yes, absolutely; and it makes me very sad that this isn't the case. She has told me that I would be the "main" relationship, but i'm not sure I'm ok with even that.

Posted by heretogrow (here)
But from what I see if I am understanding you correctly, you are almost letting her do her thing, all the while hoping deep in your heart that she will realize that what you two have I real and she will become committed once again to your relationship.

in her mind it's not a question of committing to the relationship, it's just that she wants more love partners (especially to include sex) she's a very strong Leo and I feel like she is over correcting a bit due to a life of repression (strict religious up bringing, felt she was ugly while growing up, I think she has become a much stronger person in the last few years, but this situation is also the result of that "strength"). One of my favorite sayings as a young man was something along the lines of "church girls are the most fun"...and now I"m in a relationship with one I guess.

I don't feel like I have the right to ask her not to do her own thing either, I'm trying to see if I'm ok with it; i guess.

Posted by heretogrow (here)
I. We don't own each other, but when we love each other and want to remain close we definitely consider our spouse our 'other half'.

I usually say better half, but yes, I completely agree.

Posted by heretogrow (here)
My biggest concern for you, is that in trying this, you are opening yourself up to the possibility that she may find someone else and grow closer to them, fulfilling more than just physical needs.

I guess I wasn't clear, she is most definately fulfilling more than just physical needs, the physical part is important but she seems to love this other person (or at least will admit to "having feelings") and I think that's what she wants, multiple loves (polyamor). Her reasoning is that we both bring different things to her; and of course that makes sense as well. It just feels like betrayal still, but that's probably because it's been less than a week since I finally found everything out.

Posted by heretogrow (here)
It seems to me, and please this is just an observation, that you will be selling your chances of rekindling that true intimacy between you short. While your willingness to experiment with this seems unselfish and admirable, it may become way to emotionally loaded in the end, and it may backfire, creating much more pain for you than you now realize.

I feel the same way, but she assures me it's not like that.... I don't see how it COULDN'T be like that.

Posted by heretogrow (here)
I am not trying to sway you either way. I am not married and in a committed relationship. Cheating has crossed my mind. In fact it has been on my mind a lot lately. I have opened up to find my own answers and thus stumbled on this thread this morning. Synchronicity...I know this is so hard for you. My only advice is to be honest with her and to be brutally honest with yourself. I don't expect it will be easy but it is a chance for soul growth. Much love and best of luck to you!

Julia

Thank you,

I find I'll often pursue a topic just because it's a socially excepted norm that makes no sense (I drank pee, I wore uranium ore, etc..), I feel like this maybe one of those topics but the emotional drain is very hard to manage right now... I'm hopping that is just because of the lies that seem to have now stopped.

I still feel like us working together is the right idea, if it falls apart later at least I'll know I gave it my all.

Though I do hope that us working together means it will just be us in the future... who knows.

[Krist]

Good luck my friend!
I know two couples that have attempted the journey you have embarked on.....Lets just say it didn't work out the way they had hoped.

My heart aches for both of you. Taking on a ready made family is hard enough. Weathering hurricanes while a storm of your emotions rages on as well.

I have said this before ,You are a good man, in my opinion. Very brave of you to expose your self this way, man to man with my heart.

As Flash noted, your clearly having some growth. I can not see you wanting this on the outside but maybe you are asking for it on a level that can't
be detected from here. Sure looks like a "have your cake & the whole damn plate".

Loving the lot of you all there. Referring to you as my friends.

[Valerie Villars]

I'll say it again. You have to make yourself happy. Generally that means you follow your heart and not your head. It doesn't matter what the rest of the world or island is doing and someone else's idea of what they are happy to live with in reality has nothing to do with what you decide you can live with. You don't have to apologize or justify to anyone. Just feel what is right in your heart and go for it.

Best to you Target. And for what it's worth, from your photo, I think you are a very handsome man.

[DNA]

Hi TargeT, I feel for you bro. But on the other hand I gotta say F that.
In the midst of your amazing bravery in admitting your situation I will respond in brutal honesty.
One should avoid dating American women especially when looking at having children and getting married. And when dating American women one should understand that through years of Hollywood programming and talk show enabling, American women have come to the conclusion that they are entitled to constant "passion".
When referencing Aristotle's four types of love we have Philia (Brotherly Love, Freindship Love), Storge (Family love, Parent Child Love) Agape (unconditional god type love) and Eros (romantic love).
Many relationships start out with an intense Eros that can not be sustained, and this will hopefully transform into a type of Philia or Storge or even Agape.
But even if that is the case the world is full of unrealistic mother ######"s who think they deserve to be basked in "EROS" now and forever. Most of these folks have been programmed by Hollywood, Sally Jesse Rapheal and Oprah Winfrey. There is an unrealistic entitlement thing going on here, and right now American women are front and center for thinking they gotta get theirs. In my opinion this is some Tavistock Institute/George Soros sh!t that has been in place for a while to help destroy the American Family and women have been the main target.

If your wife is presently engaged in this paradigm my advice would be "to get the f#ck" out of there.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=FYNFHS8gG6s

[DNA]

For a more esoteric reason why you shouldn't continue to be a part of this I will bold a quote from one of the wisest posters to ever grace our forum. The ever so insightful Dawn. This post is on this very thread three pages in. It should help to illuminate why and how your wives lovers are basically feeding off of YOUR energy YOUR life force. F that indeed.



I would like to take this discussion down the rabbit hole a bit. How you experience sex depends a lot on how aware you are and at what depth.

When people have sex, they mingle their energies. If orgasm happens during sex, this can be even more so. After a sexual relationship there are nearly always energetic ties that remain between the couple. Any seer or psychic worth their salt can see these attachments, sometimes 20 or 30 years later. They can be removed with focus and intention, however if you are in an ongoing relationship, you will not be able to remove them for more than a short while. Once these energetic ties are formed, there is a sharing of patterns and emotions. That means that if your sexual partner is depressed, you will feel dragged down emotionally, even if you aren't seeing them. So, if you decide to have sex with someone else while you are in a relationship, you are essentially inviting the 3rd person into the relationship.

Even for people who are only aware of the animal lust part of sexuality, an energy bond is still formed. The unaware person is still affected by this bond... whether they know it or not. I was a professional psychic and healer for more than 20 years. During that time I helped many people disconnect energy chords to their old lovers... all of them felt immediate relief and a lightness of spirit. Be aware what you are doing when you choose to have a sacred energetic exchange with another.

In my long life I have realized that much of the time, when there is sexual attraction, there are some kind of non-organic life forms egging it on. These plan to feed on the potential sexual energy that is generated during union. I have had the interesting experience of being in a class with 200 other adults who remained in sacred space while exploring the subject of human sexual energy. The result of these classes was that I saw, and eliminated, my relationship with one or more of these entities. I had been infected by the man who molested me as a child. Any time you choose to have sex with someone you exchange a lot more than bodily fluids... It is important to be aware of the spiritual clarity of your partner.

I am not judging any of the posts here, however I would like to dangle a carrot for some of you. Are you aware that true sexual union can be sacred beyond your wildest expectations? It is completely possible (I have had personal experience) to have an orgasm which lasts many many hours without stopping. In this type of sex, life force energy can be used to rejuvenate the bodies of the lovers, and to achieve high spiritual states.

This type of sacred sexual union is not really possible without deep trust, and that takes time to build up in a relationship. If you desire more than one partner, it is important that you do nothing to break this trust. That is difficult considering that most people are unaware of their deep unconscious conditioning until it is challenged. This means that your partner may think it is OK for you to have intimate energy exchange with another, until you do and they find themselves deeply wounded.

If your sexual relationship has gone gray, perhaps you are not stepping up to the next level of spirituality and awareness which allows you to move into a new frequency. PS: I suggest any of Mantak Chia's books.

[TargeT]

the world is full of unrealistic mother ######"s who think they deserve to be basked in "EROS" now and forever. Most of these folks have been programmed by Hollywood, Sally Jesse Rapheal and Oprah Winfrey. There is an unrealistic entitlement thing going on here, and right now American women are front and center for thinking they gotta get theirs. In my opinion this is some Tavistock Institute/George Soros sh!t that has been in place for a while to help destroy the American Family and women have been the main target. [/QUOTE]

I've felt a lot of the same feelings, she even admits her action was selfish (I'd add extremely on there, but that's me putting words in).

Posted by DNA (here)
If your wife is presently engaged in this paradigm my advice would be "to get the f#ck" out of there.

She is not currently and told me she wouldn't while we work on things, though I later found out she can't since he's physically unavailable till October or something (at which point he moves back to this tiny island... but he's scared of the west end where I live so hopefully I wont see him); which maybe is unfair but made her commitment to "us" seem a bit less.

we are actively working on this together, mostly discussions about why I feel the way I do because I'm being a bit hard on myself at the moment... She is afraid to commit to just me because a) she doesn't want to be a liar later (very honest) and b) she's worried we would go back to the same level of relationship that she was unhappy with.

I'm not ready to just drop everything because I'm upset and walk away from 6 years and a family; I think we all deserve more than that.

Posted by DNA (here)
For a more esoteric reason why you shouldn't continue to be a part of this I will bold a quote from one of the wisest posters to ever grace our forum. The ever so insightful Dawn. This post is on this very thread three pages in. It should help to illuminate why and how your wives lovers are basically feeding off of YOUR energy YOUR life force. F that indeed.



I would like to take this discussion down the rabbit hole a bit. How you experience sex depends a lot on how aware you are and at what depth.

When people have sex, they mingle their energies. If orgasm happens during sex, this can be even more so. After a sexual relationship there are nearly always energetic ties that remain between the couple. Any seer or psychic worth their salt can see these attachments, sometimes 20 or 30 years later. They can be removed with focus and intention, however if you are in an ongoing relationship, you will not be able to remove them for more than a short while. Once these energetic ties are formed, there is a sharing of patterns and emotions. That means that if your sexual partner is depressed, you will feel dragged down emotionally, even if you aren't seeing them. So, if you decide to have sex with someone else while you are in a relationship, you are essentially inviting the 3rd person into the relationship.

Even for people who are only aware of the animal lust part of sexuality, an energy bond is still formed. The unaware person is still affected by this bond... whether they know it or not. I was a professional psychic and healer for more than 20 years. During that time I helped many people disconnect energy chords to their old lovers... all of them felt immediate relief and a lightness of spirit. Be aware what you are doing when you choose to have a sacred energetic exchange with another.

In my long life I have realized that much of the time, when there is sexual attraction, there are some kind of non-organic life forms egging it on. These plan to feed on the potential sexual energy that is generated during union. I have had the interesting experience of being in a class with 200 other adults who remained in sacred space while exploring the subject of human sexual energy. The result of these classes was that I saw, and eliminated, my relationship with one or more of these entities. I had been infected by the man who molested me as a child. Any time you choose to have sex with someone you exchange a lot more than bodily fluids... It is important to be aware of the spiritual clarity of your partner.

I am not judging any of the posts here, however I would like to dangle a carrot for some of you. Are you aware that true sexual union can be sacred beyond your wildest expectations? It is completely possible (I have had personal experience) to have an orgasm which lasts many many hours without stopping. In this type of sex, life force energy can be used to rejuvenate the bodies of the lovers, and to achieve high spiritual states.

This type of sacred sexual union is not really possible without deep trust, and that takes time to build up in a relationship. If you desire more than one partner, it is important that you do nothing to break this trust. That is difficult considering that most people are unaware of their deep unconscious conditioning until it is challenged. This means that your partner may think it is OK for you to have intimate energy exchange with another, until you do and they find themselves deeply wounded.

If your sexual relationship has gone gray, perhaps you are not stepping up to the next level of spirituality and awareness which allows you to move into a new frequency. PS: I suggest any of Mantak Chia's books.

a very good point, I'll have to consider this angle as well.

[heretogrow]

Target,
I truly wish you the strength and confidence to explore what you feel you need to do. All relationships are as complex as the people engaged in them so don't take this as sage advice, I will just share my experience and please don't think this is how I think your might go. My husband and I tried this some 25-30 years ago. It didn't work for me although he was happy seeing other people. We grew apart and ended up living in the same house but yet living parallel lives. It was excruciatingly painful to me when what I really wanted most was for him to want all of those experiences with me.

Because of the emotional distance that grew between us, I eventually just needed to find peace and I faced the fact that I was not the one for him. He lived on to never be truly committed to any one love. When he passed away in 2008 I could honestly say that we had spent the latter years becoming great friends. Once I let go of my projections and my expectations of him, I got to know and experience the true human being he really was. We accepted each others flaws and reconciled that we just could not make life work in marriage. But we really grew to love and appreciate each other as friends.

He would actually call me and complain about the other women he dated. A week before he passed away he called to tell me that his girlfriend called him by he ex'z name when they were making love. I laughed and told him karma was a bitch! When he passed away I was grateful for the fact that we had thrown out all the social mores and decided to create a semi-life together that revolved around truth and understanding for one another. Our marriage was doomed but our friendship that developed afterward was very genuine.

In order to get to that point it took many years of forgiving and letting go. I really loved the man. I wanted to grow old together and raise our kids together. In the end it made me a better person. Although if anyone would have told me that at the time I would have not agreed. I never really found love until after he had been gone a few years. I would venture to say he had a hand in that as well.

Here and now we don't always get to see the big picture. Sometimes we stumble upon the reasons why years later after we are much older. Then they make sense.

My grandmother was full of clichés. Her top three on relationships were 1) Love makes the world go round 2) You have to try on your shoes before you buy them and 3) You play with fire and your biscuits get burnt. It took me years to figure out the wisdom in these little clichés.

In the end all you really have is yourself and your own understanding of things. But it is worth it to try to make peace with yourself and the one you love. The hardest part is finding that honesty that leads to peace. It can be both painful and rewarding. But it is the past. Right now you have the present and many opportunities to do what you feel you must do.

Thanks for posting on this thread. Like I mentioned before cheating had been on my mind. I think I'll have a sit down with my man tonight and try to talk things through.

I maight not have reached this conclusion if had not followed these recent posts. So THANK YOU to all!

Julia

[Hym]

The Guess Who, a Canadian band, made a song called "American Woman". I understood it, besides it's great beat, when it came out. It rang true then and I do my best not to play it around others because it is not true for at least a small group of American woman who have stood in their own power, internal beauty and balance, unaffected by all of the b.s. programming they have to endure growing up.

Most women here in the states don't have a clue as to how many men look at them in such a soulful way, even as they fly from one superficial relationship to another, desensitizing themselves to all of crap they are absorbing, taking classes to deal with their inner children just so they can become as lame as the jerks they screw. Did you ever wonder why god made batteries? Could it have just been a compassionate gesture to all of the women out there, or what?

In that vein I have a smile on my face when I hear my son tell me about meeting some girl's parents in another country, as he was raised with a heart centered respect telling him that how he treats himself must be the basis of any relationship he develops. Hell, I have a friend who was adamant in not introducing me to any women in the largest town nearby, so negative is her experience with them.

I've said this before and it bears repeating...
If you do not massage each other every day, or at least every other day, and do so with an intimacy that develops a deep knowledge with your partner's body you should not be allowed to have sex. Why isn't that a prerequisite for getting a marriage license, something I find not worth the paper it's written on anyway, let alone for the continuation of any sexual relationship. Who the F##K are you people anyway?

I look at many lives and I say W. T. F. are you doing to yourself, treating yourself this way, bending over backwards for such a demeaning amount of attention. You are worth so much more, but not if you don't believe it enough to know it is true. Hey, say it to yourself and hear yourself say it. You have been lied to in so many ways, why would you deny yourself creating your own reality beyond those inhumane narratives?

Yes, I've known the simplicity of Dawn's observations and experiences about the connections that intimacy makes since I can recall seeing it in others as a little kid. I knew when married couples were cheating on each other. I saw it and wondered why they would play the games of hiding it and I saw the pain and insecurities it caused their husbands and wives. The connections with their hidden others, mainly people in their daily lives, was out in the open as far as I could plainly see. The training to desensitize people must begin very early on in their lives. Sad.

By the way, take that so-called chi expert's books for the hints about energy that they are, not the truths they aren't. I knew a long time student of his who left him because of his constant habit of screwing his female students, and this well known saxophone player got into a lot of detail about the great degree of insensitivities he showed. Yes, apply that to the validity of his so-called insights and methods. Walk the Walk, MF'er, or not.

That reminds me of two men I know who bragged to me about how many women they had sex with. My immediate response to both of them was "Are you really that bad of a lover that you can't keep a woman satisfied beyond your pretend intimacy?" (Actually it was more vulgar than that, but you get the idea). I couldn't understand bragging about any of that and their responses, both telling me that they were now with only one woman, bore out the truth of it's ignorance.

DNA, not a fan of that music but because of it's truth I loved it and rocked out to it. Truth cannot ever be denied, whatever form it takes. Thanks.

[DNA]

Posted by Hym (here)
The Guess Who, a Canadian band, made a song called "American Woman". I understood it, besides it's great beat, when it came out. It rang true then and I do my best not to play it around others because it is not true for at least a small group of American woman who have stood in their own power, internal beauty and balance, unaffected by all of the b.s. programming they have to endure growing up.

You are so in my head.
I almost posted that song, as a matter of fact it was a tuff choice between that and the Korn song, but the Korn song had the angst I wanted so there you go.
The Guess Who song is supposed to be a metaphor about the United States in general but I was willing to go for the literal translation as well.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=9uf6EY2BZBw

Posted by Hym (here)
By the way, take Mantak Chia's books for the hints about energy that they are, not the truths. I knew a long time student of his who left him because of his constant habit of screwing his female students, and this well known saxophone player got into a lot of detail about the great degree of insensitivities he showed. Yes, apply that to the validity of his so-called insights and methods. Walk the Walk, MF'er, or not.

I have no doubt you are probably right here.
Men in general and women are not made the same. Men have always been dogs, but they are kept in restraint due to women being the moral compass of their community. There is a story in Greek literature about a King who could not be swayed by Dionysis the god of debauchery. The King was offered every kind of luxary and was able to not sway, until Dionysis offered him unlimited sex with as many women as he wanted, to this the King was willing to give up his Kingdom and follow Dionysis.
Men and women are not created the same, and men can function more or less and not cheat due to the fact that woman as a rule through out history have as a whole not lent themselves out so.
My point here is that although Mantak Chia is a man, his books convey truths he was given and taught in the tradition of Taoism a very ancient and in my mind correct eastern philosophy. But, Mantak Chia is a man, a man who attained the "guru" status. I'm of the opinion that men as a whole should never be spiritual leaders or gurus. Men are flawed and it is difficult for them not to act on presented oppurtunities. If this sounds sexist I don't really care, it is a truth I've learned through being a pragmatic observer of human nature.

[Hym]

Some men see the opportunity as a reason to be base and others see it as an opportunity to strengthen those who present that conflict to them. You're a teacher, I ask, Right? You are a friend, right? Only if you take the path I would consider much easier by facing the obvious....Teach. See that response in a student's eyes and listen to them move on and watch them grow, watch the self-assurance that facing things openly with yourself creates, even in the way they walk and hold themselves.

Scum. Cheap thrills for cheap intentions, habitually trained by others and themselves not to live in the power of the endless world of inner journeys.....

I don't know why that is so rarely discussed, especially when that man is a teacher. Really? Teaching what? Is that man worth his steel or not? It is a low brow path, not just the test of a teachers credentials but of his humanity. Someone with a marked lack of imagination and self esteem.


You are the Guru in human form, minus the b.s trappings of religiosity, scarcity, and the illusory position of authority. You are the Buddha without the shorn hair and Milarepa's fearless humility walking the path few warriors have tread. Yours is the sanctity nurtured by the dust of those who truly serve humanity, walking in their shoes and noticing, a captured thought, by chance observing the diamonds on the soles of their shoes....... It is in your capacity. You have surprised me, continually..

[heretogrow]

PS- Something I wrote on here earlier has really bothered me. I have openly admitted that I have dared to think about cheating. Please know that I have not even remotely advanced toward that but the gesture has presented itself in my mind and I am being honest. This is not a flippant thing that I just woke up one day and decided to considered. This is are feelings that I have been processing due to lack of intimacy for nearly half of a year. There are physical problems involved that we are facing and I am very empathetic about that. I suppose men do not think to kiss or touch if there is no reward for them in the end. That closeness is the intimacy which I am starving for and no amount of heart to heart talks has managed to make my needs heard.

Yes I said needs. I realize that now I may seem like the typical American Woman who demands far too much. But if I am being honest, when the emotional needs are not met everything else starts to fall apart as well. It is emotional intimacy that makes me feel worthy and balanced. My other needs are secondary or almost non-existant when I am emotionally healthy. It is a slippery slope that has been allowed to develop over much time. I am talking about a soulful give and take of emotions in a very healthy way in the middle of busy and demanding lives. It almost sounds too good to be true and really selfish as I type this out, but this is an honest discussion and I am trying to figure a few things out myself here as well. I don't want anyone to think bad of me. This is just one woman's perspective here.

Much Love,
Julia

[TargeT]

Posted by heretogrow (here)
It is emotional intimacy that makes me feel worthy and balanced. My other needs are secondary or almost non-existant when I am emotionally healthy. It is a slippery slope that has been allowed to develop over much time. I am talking about a soulful give and take of emotions in a very healthy way in the middle of busy and demanding lives. It almost sounds too good to be true and really selfish as I type this out, but this is an honest discussion and I am trying to figure a few things out myself here as well. I don't want anyone to think bad of me. This is just one woman's perspective here.

Much Love,
Julia

In my reading I've read that men cheat for lack of sex, women cheat for lack of emotional connection. I'm sure these are just generalities but it does show the focus of the two different aspects of a relationship.

I know that my partner was put into a situation just like the one you seem to be in and DID try to talk about it to me, but as a part of her growth she decided acceptance was better and to "handle her needs her self" when I pushed back against the idea of multiple partners; I was caught in a semi-depressed state and I'm sure I was not a very fun person to be around while I wallowed in it while at the same time not giving her what she needed.

I wish we had come to a point where these conversations weren't backed by cheating, I am very glad I'm having these difficult discussions and even though I think she has a bit more to tell me; I do think she genuinely wants to be honest with me and move to a better place, she told meat first her ideal situation would involve all three of us, but I think we could work with just us together and I'm willing to try for that.

I guess I'm still blindly in love with her; I feel like I'm giving a lot to try and make this work but it just doesn't feel right yet; though it's all very new.

I feel responsibility for her decision to stray; and but I also feel like she has been playing the "pick me" game very well, though it's hard to not discuss the reasons for cheating... it feels like I caught her and now I'm being punished.. haha

lots of confusing stuff.

[heretogrow]

Target,
It is so confusing. I don't know about you but to me relationships are sacred. They are full of ups and downs and even ugliness at times but they are still sacred. I almost feel guilty for posting my thoughts and feelings on this thread but for some reason it is important for me to process all of this. I am not sure I could admit to man that I have thought of cheating to fill this void. He does not hear the warning signs or give my feelings any deep amount of thought. I feel like a terrible person for being so vulnerable to putting my feelings above his. I am good for the moment, but this has plagued our relationship for more than a year now and I don't feel like he has ever seriously considered anything I have been saying. I feel like I should be quiet. When I post this it makes me feel quite raw, exposed and downright wrong for admitting that I have been thinking this way. The lack of ability to make myself clear is intrinsically part of our problems.

[Hym]

This is your teaching opportunity, Julia, but only if it is available. It may even be an opportunity to serve, whether you two stay together or not. I hope it is. I think, even with as little as I know of youtwo, that you can get this going...and even as some physical impairment presents a challenge.

TargeT cannot lose in his situation because he is very open and working on it. As harsh as it may seem going thru all of the pains involved and often how ugly outer beauty can become in the raw realms of truth, neither him or his wife can lose in this pursuit of honesty.

No matter how good, even masterful, I been called at touch I do not have the capacity that women have in their presence. Fact. Breaking men out of their need for sex and introducing or re-exploring the intimacy of touch is something that women can do much better than men. However, even with an injury, a kiss lingering, and the many facets of touch can be highly satisfying....And remember that this is a two way connection. Either way, insist upon that intimacy, whether you stay or move on to another. I say this because that alone is the implied contract between all men and women when they join each other in the journey that only two can travel. It does take two.

The kindness you create in resolving anything is the kindness you will most likely receive in a larger dose, come the future.


I'm going to add this, knowing that if there is anywhere it can be an experience others have had it is here on the Paths of Avalon....

I was working long hours, 10 to 14 hours a day, with 3 total travel hours added to that back and forth. One night I was too tired to massage my pregnant wife, the only one I've had, when I got home, so I did something else, at least putting the effort out to share some energy with her.

I gave her a kiss, a hug, massaged her shoulders, then had her sit up straighter so I could massage her lower back. When I put my hand near her back I did what I always do before touching it. I felt the energy coming out of my hand and as it reached her inside of her stress, her back suddenly released a pop, a cracking sound, and she slowly slumped down and fell asleep.

It was the willingness to get in there and the love that did the deep healing. I know you all have that capacity to engage in the healing of yourselves and others, and I am frankly tired of being considered anyone different from you, especially having seen at least some do the same thing, without training or certification. Talk about cheating....I see this forum as the means to not cheat ourselves of the intimacy our hearts and souls need to be here.