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  1. Link to Post #161
    Canada Avalon Member Bruno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cheating

    I don't have the time to write more but I want to give a heartfelt thanks to the contributors of this thread. The personal experiences and sincere advice here are wonderful.

    Thank you!

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    Administrator Mark (Star Mariner)'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Cheating

    ^ What Bruno said. Thank you all for the very personal stories, it's been highly insightful (although I haven't got through all of them yet, apologies).

    Just swinging in with my own anecdote. I've never cheated, because I know what it feels like. It was like having your guts ripped out. It's been 13 years and I've been single ever since. I have shyness issues and self-esteem issues and, ah yes, trust issues. Or maybe I just call it that, and staying single is just a safety blanket.

    Cheating is beyond me in many respects. I would never do it. I can possibly understand the hows and whys of cheating in a marriage. One might feel trapped and unloved and just cannot get out. Not without taking a huge financial loss, for example. And when someone else comes along offering them a temporary escape...yes, I see that.

    But relationships are different. For my own part, I ended a relationship once because for me it wasn't going anywhere. She was kind, honest, and a real looker, and I sincerely cared for her. But that was all. Then I fell for someone else, and fell hard - however, I did not cheat with her. At my existing gf's place one night I decided to come out with it. I sat her down on the sofa and told her straight, but very gently, that it wasn't going to work out, and that I was in love with another girl.

    I made myself sound wholly undeserving of her, that she was wonderful and it was all my fault. Though with honesty, it wasn't anyone's fault. I didn't feel that special something with her, that's all. It just wasn't there, and would never be there. And there was another thing. She had a daughter of 18 months by another man (from before we were together), and she was angling all the while for me to be sole provider. Maybe I was no more to her than that, I don't know. But I was not in a place in my life to be able to do that. And I had nothing against the kid at all, it was just...I didn't really want to father someone else's child. Sounds harsh perhaps, but I wasn't looking to have a family with her.

    So I told her the truth, and delicately, and it involved this other girl. I really was head over heals - it wasn't that I was using her as an excuse to get out. The gf was upset of course, but also understanding, mindful that I was being honest. It was all very calm and cordial. I guess this is the exception rather than the rule for breakups. In the end I was glad to part amicably - that very night. That was the end of it and I didn't see her again.

    The irony is, the girl I went on to see - who I was so veeery much in love with, cheated on me. A lot.

    13 years later...
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

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    United States Avalon Member DNA's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cheating

    I honestlly think at times we have to look at our parents and the behaviors they displayed to one another we were observing as children and young adults.
    I'm not a Freud fan at all, but I think it is rather easy to see how he got that one right.
    I was reading Star Mariner's post, thank you Star Mariner for your post, and I was thinking about how unconsciously we may choose mates based on how we perceived our parents as we were children and how they treated each other.
    I will use my self as an example, my own mother had quite a few faults in so far as being a person, we all do, but one thing she did wonderfully well was pay attention to me and truly listen to me when I was talking to her. As such as a young man I would find myself breaking up with girls who on the surface were beautiful people by all accounts but who would not fully engage or match the level of attention and love I gave them.
    I was well aware of this as a young man and as I noted friends and such who seemed to be making certain choices in mates and such I would ask them questions pertaining to their parent of the opposite sex and find there were correlations in what they looked for in a mate.
    I know this is rather elementary and I'm sure most of you are well aware of this, but sometimes it doesn't hurt to have something like this voiced so as we re-examine some of these factors in our relationships and how we choose potential mates.
    Last edited by DNA; 18th May 2018 at 22:57.

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  7. Link to Post #164
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Posted by Star Mariner (here)
    I can possibly understand the hows and whys of cheating in a marriage. One might feel trapped and unloved and just cannot get out. Not without taking a huge financial loss, for example. And when someone else comes along offering them a temporary escape...yes, I see that.
    The more we talk the more its obvious that was a part of what was going on, a sense of being trapped (financially especially) with someone that she didn't feel she could communicate her needs to; when this attractive friend came up that seemed willing to fulfill what was empty and offer things that I cannot (different, not better... but sometimes different does seem better, or at least its desired).

    We had another VERY emotional day to day, I finally feel like I know everything that happened, it's not what I thought it was yesterday but the honesty (even though it came with a huge emotional blow out, a lot of past anger and resentment being expressed etc..) is what I value most at this point; i think rebuilding trust is the most important thing and a lot of that has to do with me as well.

    It all seems like communication issues are the root of this, though really sex is too; and of course women do not generally have sexual partners with out love... so there's that too due to the duration of the friendship turned affair (in my situation).


    Anyway, I feel like we accomplished something (in a very messy way) today and I'm feeling less suspicious now that (again I FEEL) that I know the whole of what we are working past.
    Last edited by TargeT; 19th May 2018 at 03:57.
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  9. Link to Post #165
    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cheating

    I could be more graphic, but this is in the public domain.

    What I have decided is that it is far better to love more than to stop loving. In retrospect I would have been better off with my first wife.

    Instead I stopped loving her. And I used that same method for the next three long relationships. I stopped loving them.

    I learned that I gave away my power to women in exchange for companionship and sex. That isn't love. Although it felt like it.

    This last lady, of almost fifteen years now, I truly love - with all my heart. And no matter what she does or I might do, and most has already been done so I speak from experience, I will always love her. It is not that I found the perfect women, either. Rather, it is that I have worked on myself and my foibles, my insecurities, my ****. It was very uncomfortable but our lives were in such turmoil then that I resolved to dedicate myself to self-realization. I joined a group, I went for therapy, I took a two year course in interpersonal relationship training. She was invited but by then I understood that this was about me, not her. In the end I retook my power and left. I started a new life without her. I would cry myself to sleep I was so unhappy but I am very stubborn, so I stuck to it. three months went by and finally she called. I truly had given up by then on her, but I still loved her and there would never be another for me. And she called! And she apologized and said she loved me and wanted to be with me. I joyously agreed. There were some rocky times after that, some documented here way back, but in the end she was cured or her addictions and had a handle on her past trauma. She started reaching out to her two estranged children. Now they are on the mend, years later, of their own trauma. One is at a crisis point as I write this, we have just seen her after six months of no contact. She is skin and bones but she realizes she needs help, so she came to us, of course...

    I am rambling, I know.

    What I want to convey is that the power is always with the one who strives for love and clarity. And miracles can be accomplished. Thank you for this reminder of the fantastic work I have done in this relationship. It is a true miracle.

    That's all.
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

    Free will can only be as free as the mind that conceives it.

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  11. Link to Post #166
    United States Avalon Member Elpis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cheating

    I could not pass up commenting on this Thread. Thank you TargeT for posting to it otherwise I may never have seen it.

    I should give you a little history. I’ve not been so lucky in love, never marrying my one true love, but I have had a world of experience. I’ve been married four times. The first one only lasted 10 months when I was 19. During my second marriage which lasted 6 years, my husband cheated on me while I was pregnant with of course his long legged secretary. Two weeks into my third marriage my husband cheated and later on he did much worse to me.

    My last marriage was for 20 years. This husband did not cheat but I cheated (emotionally) towards the end our marriage when I had email contact with that long lost love. I’ve been single since 2005, our divorce finale in 2009.

    We had a blended family. My husband was a widower with three children and I had two children. One of my children was that of my first love and the other was from my second marriage. Although we had lots of challenges in the beginning we were making it all work. I was at a place and time in my life where I felt I could finally put my past (love) behind me. I was happy.

    Tragedy struck our family a few years in when my step-daughter was brutally raped and murdered. My husband was never the same. Grief and anger will do that to a person. As the years went by he only became more distant. It was as if there was a cloud around him that was choking off my air supply. The only time I would see a smile on his face or have him show me any type of affection was when we were in the company of others.

    I was starved for affection and ripe for the picking when after 35 years of no contact that first email arrived. Love letters soon began to fly back and forth. It was as if no time had passed between us. The golden cord between our spirits had never fully broken. It’s still there to this day even though we live separate lives worlds apart.

    Listening to TargeT’s story it reminded me of my own. There was a huge void in my life and another man filled it. I had a need that my husband was not able or willing to fill. I finally made the choice to leave. In my mind and heart I had already betrayed him and myself. After all I’d been through, how was it possible I became the “cheater”?

    There has to be a void in order for a partner to go outside the marriage/relationship in order to have it filled.

    I have many views on love, sex, emotional needs, intimacy, menopause and more. Perhaps I’ll write more on those topics later on a different thread. Any thread suggestions?

    One finale thought for TargeT ~ Two is company, three is a crowd! Just my opinion. Wishing you both all the best.

    Much love
    “My life is like a stroll upon the beach, as near to the ocean's edge as I can go.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Cheating

    Listening to the Heart Beat.....Healing Beyond The Pain


    A suggestion for thread titles, as all of this is useless unless the healing takes place. The awesome thing here is, there is a lot of healing in all of the shared comments, experiences, insights, and honesty.

    Cheating on it's own as a title, for what seems to be at the Heart of these discussions, was just a starting point. I'm pretty sure some here will come up with good suggestions.
    Last edited by Hym; 24th May 2018 at 16:16.

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    Default Re: Cheating

    Elpis, Thanks for sharing.

    I have seen those things you describe about the distance that the emotions travel away from the very love that, even by definition and common sense, could help heal the traumas people go thru. It is that closeness we share with our mates that is there to ease the burden and give us the strength to see us thru the deep pains we experience. Sometimes the heart is lost in the pain, unable to be healed by the one closest to us.

    Often I have no objection to the one in a relationship who finds solace beyond the abuse, but not for the lack of affection. That seems like balance, until the pain is resolved. However, I've chosen to not be the one filling the emptiness, because that does little to strengthen the one in pain, a process that will make her more worthy to herself and any future mate once that strength and INNATE RIGHT is found.
    Last edited by Hym; 24th May 2018 at 16:17.

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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Posted by Hym (here)
    Elpis, Thanks for sharing.

    I have seen just those things you describe about the distance that the emotions travel away from the very love that, even by definition and common sense, could help heal the traumas people go thru. It is that closeness we share with our mates that is there to ease the burden and give us the strength to see us thru the deep pains we experience. Sometimes the heart is lost in the pain, unable to be healed by the one closest to us.

    Often I have no objection to the one in a relationship who finds solace beyond the abuse and the lack of affection. That seems like balance, until the pain is resolved. However, I've chosen to not be the one filling the emptiness, because that does little to strengthen the one in pain, a process that will make her more worthy to herself and any future mate once that strength and INNATE RIGHT is found.

    Thank you Hym.

    I stayed as long as I could. The children were all grown by the time I left. He was not close to his daughter but she and I were very close. I think that only added to his pain. I thought I was helping him but when looking back I think I was a daily reminder of what he had lost and that horrific time in our life.

    He moved on quickly from me finding comfort from another who was not close to the situation but was a friend of the family. He is not the kind of man to be alone. He needs the presence of a woman in his life. I think he has come further along the path to healing without me. I am thankful for that.

    I think it was meant for me to be there at that time. The problem was I stayed about five years longer than I should have.

    Much Love
    “My life is like a stroll upon the beach, as near to the ocean's edge as I can go.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Cheating

    Oh Elpis,
    I looked at your profile after reading the deeply moving post that you wrote. You are such a beautiful person inside and out.

    I wrote some things that were really personal but I have since deleted them because they probably should not be on the internet.

    I guess right now my relationship is on life-support. I won't cheat. I won't leave because we have managed to create a safety net by prepping for/in case the SHIF and we can survive anything bad that happens in the outside world.

    AutumnW is right. I guess I just have to live like I have a roommate.
    Last edited by heretogrow; 19th May 2018 at 12:47.

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  21. Link to Post #171
    United States Avalon Member Elpis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Posted by heretogrow (here)
    Oh Elpis,
    I looked at your profile after reading the deeply moving post that you wrote. You are such a beautiful person inside and out.

    I wrote some things that were really personal but I have since deleted them because they probably should not be on the internet.

    I guess right now my relationship is on life-support. I won't cheat. I won't leave because we have managed to create a safety net by prepping for/in case the SHIF and we can survive anything bad that happens in the outside world.

    AutumnW is right. I guess I just have to live like I have a roommate.
    Thank you so much HereToGrow for the kind words and the friend request!

    I’m not sure if living as a roommate with your life partner/husband is healthy. My heart aches for you.

    I felt that way for years and it slowly chipped away at my very essence. I lost myself and my way, giving all I had to a man that could not give back.

    Occasionally there was “sex” in the bedroom but no real intimacy. In the end it felt like another chore I needed to do. That’s a horrible way to live.

    That is not me at all. I have a very healthy sex drive, sometimes too healthy, plus I am a bit of a romantic. Okay, I am a big romantic! At times I am not sure if I was blessed or cursed that I came through menopause still having a need for physical intimacy. I don’t believe we were meant to go through life alone. I truly miss not having a partner in my life, the right partner.

    For me sex doesn’t start in the bedroom. There is a slow buildup all day with flirting and innuendo, quick kisses and a wink, perhaps a gentle pat on the rear as he walks by. It’s about the dance for me. It’s about the anticipation. It’s putting the play into the work of achieving that long awaited evening. It’s the difference between having sex and making love.

    Living with a man that only seemed a roommate did not work for me. The connection we once had was lost. It just took me way too long to accept that.

    I truly wish the best for you.

    With Love
    “My life is like a stroll upon the beach, as near to the ocean's edge as I can go.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Cheating

    Thank you so much for your kindness, Elpis. Perhaps I should not have changed my post to say we can survive anything bad in this world if I stay here. As I am muddling through my day in this funk I just realized our river is rising and it looks like there is a threat of a flood later if it continues to rise. I am getting ready to take my daughter to my parents house for the day, just to be safe.

    I will be ok for the moment. Life is short, I don't understand why it can be so difficult to show feelings, especially love. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

    Much Love,
    Julia

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    Default Re: Cheating

    Here to Grow, I agree about not showing so much on the internet. I immediately was concerned for you. Your sharing was very healthy and we all here validate your truths, your honesty and your bravery in sharing. It also brought up to me why I have never used any other sites. I was even going to PM Bill raising concerns for your safety, what with how people are vulnerable to exploitation, that is until I saw you had removed those details.

    I wondered then if there was anything I did to prompt anyone from revealing too much here, then I saw that you had balanced it all out with the rest of your post. I do think we have a certain amount of safety here, but then again, for me, I can't be exploited and I stand by the truths I have shared. Each step in the process of validating the experiences that lead to healing has to be honored and supported. It should be an easy thing to do.

    This reminds me of my requests, at times, to some friends about the search for good men needed to meet some very good women, especially for so many of the women I see here in the states. It's no joke, though, as is my way, I have mentioned it as a laugh at the end of noticing some unwarranted harshness coming from some women here, something that DNA hit on exactly as it is.

    It's what I have seen as a complicated but deliberate effort by all of those who have manipulated society thru entertainment, news, education, politics and religion to separate and alienate men and women from each other. It is difficult to watch but I don't get caught up in the negativity for any length of time.

    This forum has always been both a statement of truths and a balanced platform for solutions, even the relief, the respite needed to enjoy it all. Discussions like these hold fast those value we share, amidst the necessary and invited vast differences in experience, viewpoints and opinions.

    And as you have said, HeretoGrow, it doesn't make sense. May your paths to that calm begin with the inner strength that only you can create.

    Blessings
    Last edited by Hym; 24th May 2018 at 16:23.

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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Posted by heretogrow (here)
    Thank you so much for your kindness, Elpis. Perhaps I should not have changed my post to say we can survive anything bad in this world if I stay here. As I am muddling through my day in this funk I just realized our river is rising and it looks like there is a threat of a flood later if it continues to rise. I am getting ready to take my daughter to my parents house for the day, just to be safe.

    I will be ok for the moment. Life is short, I don't understand why it can be so difficult to show feelings, especially love. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

    Much Love,
    Julia
    Thank you Julia. Please stay safe!
    “My life is like a stroll upon the beach, as near to the ocean's edge as I can go.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Re: Cheating

    Quote Posted by heretogrow (here)
    I don't understand why it can be so difficult to show feelings, especially love.
    I think complacency is part, it's hard to live in a situation and not get used to it, I wouldn't say numb to it but any routine becomes muscle memory and that mean's there's not very much concious thought going into it; and I think the feminine component of the partnership is generally more sensitive to this. For me there were also insecurities and a lack of being comfortable enough to just be me instead of the stereotype I thought I was suppose to be (or was trained to think so via entertainment/society while in my formative years). And there's the fact that we all show our love differently, at times I thought I was showing it and she was looking for how she shows love, not how I show it and thought I didn't love her very much anymore because of the differences in our love language.

    Quote
    • Your Scores
    • 8 Physical Touch
    • 8 Quality Time
    • 6 Words of Affirmation
    • 5 Acts of Service
    • 3 Receiving Gifts
    Reading about it clued me into some things she had been doing that bothered me (or at least gave them new focus) like not giving me her full attnetion when we spend time together; which is hard for her because she's very Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) like.

    Her highest score was Words of Affirmation; which is much less important to me; and I did not understand this importance until we took this test and discussed it.

    But also, a lot of our problem was just lack of deep communication where we really made sure we understood each other and were not just hearing words and trying to fit them to our idea of what the other was saying.

    I think we threw a lot of stumbling blocks in front of ourselves with out even knowing; then got frustrated when we couldn't run freely.
    Last edited by TargeT; 19th May 2018 at 17:27.
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  31. Link to Post #176
    United States Avalon Member heretogrow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Well Target I had a very emotional heart to heart with my man last night. It did not go well. Many tears on my part. I bared my soul to him. He told me he loved me, but when I told him I needed kissed and held he flat-lined. Thinking about it today, that was when I felt his body get rigid and defensive. He could not show tenderness.

    He acts like he is cheating? Who Knows! I am going outside to talk to my plants. the flood watch has lifted.

    Why would someone withhold the very thing that would make it a healing experience instead of a hurting experience, when you have emotionally bared your heart and soul to them.

    Ps- I don't look like my avatar anymore. That was twenty years ago. But I am still very warm, and nurturing and comfortable.
    Last edited by heretogrow; 19th May 2018 at 20:26.

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  33. Link to Post #177
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    Default Re: Cheating

    I'm sorry you had a difficult night, but I think this maybe a good start to cracking open the conversation; I hope you don't feel like the one last night was the final one?

    Quote Posted by heretogrow (here)
    Well Target I had a very emotional heart to heart with my man last night. It did not go well. Many tears on my part. I bared my soul to him. He told me he loved me, but when I told him I needed kissed and held he flat-lined. Thinking about it today, that was when I felt his body get rigid and defensive. He could not show tenderness.

    He acts like he is cheating? Who Knows! I am going outside to talk to my plants. the flood watch has lifted.

    Why would someone withhold the very thing that would make it a healing experience instead of a hurting experience, when you have emotionally bared your heart and soul to them.

    Ps- I don't look like my avatar anymore. That was twenty years ago. But I am still very warm, and nurturing and comfortable.
    I know it was devastating to you because you bared your self and became very vulnerable and felt rejected; which makes it very hard.

    From what you've said, he is a very "traditional" man, to me I read that it's the same type of stereotype I was trying to adhere to most my life... and being sensitive isn't really covered by that sterio type.

    For me when I was (initially, this was years ago, my problems didn't crop up over night but slowly built to a crescendo) asked for something similar to what you did last night I got defensive because I think I felt guilty, I KNEW I wasn't doing what she said but the defensive side of my personality is strong and wily and convinced me she was just trying to get something out of me or some other negative thing.. I didn't even try to see her perspective or need because I was too busy defending myself against my own guilt and other complications.

    I'll assume he's not cheating due to other things you've mentioned, but I'm sure he has a lot of conflicted emotions that are hard to set down; i doubt self examination is a very common practice by the "traditional" man; but if you feel like it's worth fighting for, like I do... don't give up!

    A one time very emotional conversation may just not be enough; you are expressing your unfulfilled needs that you want him to be present for... I see all kinds of opportunity for the insecurities I'm feeling to pop up with that line of conversation (and remember, almost none of it really has to do with you; if it's like whats going on with me) and the stereotypical man does not have insecurities! (so there's something to struggle with too)
    Last edited by TargeT; 19th May 2018 at 20:49.
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    Default Re: Cheating

    Target, Heretogrow,

    Just want to add something quick here Julia. Even a traditional man will comfort a crying and upset spouse who needs to be held.

    Let me qualify here. If it was a heated argument, that's one thing, but if you really were just baring your soul and he pretty much rejected you at that moment ...hmm...odd.

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    Default Re: Cheating

    Thanks Target,
    My emotions have been up and down. He doesn't have as many as I do. I am a little ADD, like your lady, myself. She and I sound like we have a few like qualities and you and my man sound similar. I am so proud of you for facing this head on even though it is difficult for you. We are in our fifties and have old age creeping up like a fast moving train. You have your youth on your side. Plus, you are willing to grow and open to change.

    I am wondering, does your lady have a sense of humor? Is she funny? Quirky... Off the wall a little? I have that type of personality and I can usually get him to open up more with humor. I don't want to make my relationship sound all bad. It isn't. We have so much in common, we communicate pretty well on things other than emotions, we laugh often.

    He calls me Lucy, because I can be a lot like Lucille Ball. I do get myself in predicaments often. Maybe humor will get through to him better. Maybe even dark humor. When he comes home I could tell him he might want to be a little more warm and fuzzy or else I'll go all Bobbit on him. Then I'll serve hot dogs for dinner!

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    Default Re: Cheating

    I spent many years dating and spending a couple years here and there in various relationships. But by and large I spent 20 years dating until I met my wife.

    Along the way I developed a certain ethical criteria in my dating habits.

    If a married women with no children who's husband I had never met engaged me I didn't really have a moral problem with that.

    If perchance I had met the husband and went so far as to shake his hand, then guy code is enacted and I'm not going to do anything my will power will prevent me from doing.

    If a woman has kids and she is in a relationship with either the biological father of the kids or a man of whom is in the working role as father I would not have ANYTHING to do with that. There are karmic ramifications involved with possibly affecting the life of children and their upbringing. And anyone with even a hint of a conscious should have the moral compass to know this.

    A man who steps into that role for merely fleshly gratifications is a piece of sh!t in my opinion.

    The woman who steps into that role and displaces the stability and well being of her own children for fleshly gratification, especially long lasting extra involved affairs risks not only the trust and relationship of her children's caretaker, but that of her very own children as well. I've seen women do this feeling they can control the narrative in so far as their own children are concerned and some how find a way to blame this all on her cheated on mate but the truth eventually all comes out and the children's trust and love in their mother is often times negatively affected for the rest of their lives. I've seen this happen with both the biological father and men in the role of acting father and caretaker. One of my best friends has espoused venom and hatred of his own mother his entire life due to her cheating on the man he loved who was acting as his father and caretaker and he had no biological relation to him what so ever. His life was never the same and his views on women are still negatively affected as a result.

    Quite a price to pay for a mother to sacrifice the love and trust of her children all for a little emotional and physical gratification. This is an ingrained knowledge people and especially women have, but this ingrained knowledge has been attacked and made to look contrary by western culture, media and cinema. A simple understandable truth has been scoffed at, ridiculed and nullified by talking heads and movie protagonists enabling the worst part of our ego's interests.

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