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Thread: The Methane Problem

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    There was talk several years ago about the threat from The Artic Tundra
    thawing , as well as a large lake in Africa ? I remember seeing a documentary
    about that ,also the threat from ocean vents.The topic has been quite as you
    say for a while....


    I just checked this is from 2002...

    Nature Documentary hosted by Martin Shaw and published by BBC broadcasted as
    part of BBC Horizon series in 2002 - English narration



    Killer Lakes documentary narrated by Martin Shaw

    Last edited by Cidersomerset; 15th February 2015 at 14:12.

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    From what I can see, there is roughly a 12% increase of atmospheric methane since the early 80s.



    That would be a 2% increase in greenhouse gases altogether, since methane makes up for 18% of greenhouse gases.



    Gotta admit though, this calculation must be somewhat flawed, since methane is said to be a more potent greenhouse gas than for instance CO2. The numbers as to how much more potent vary greatly, from what I can see.

    However, greenhouse gas concentration in the atmosphere has fluctuated greatly in the planet's history, so there's nothing unnatural about change in that regard in general, I'd think.

    Climate change is always happening, sometimes with drastic consequences. It's not something that can be prevented altogether, that would be like stopping nature. My understanding of the methane issue is that there is little if any leverage to do something about the atmospheric concentration directly. If it should become an issue in one way or another, I reckon dealing with the consequences as they unfold would be economically most efficient.

    I guess what the individual and society can do in light of this is to continue to work on very tangible issues that everyone can relate to in their daily lives. Working on a greater understanding and development of our culture (like politics, economics, etc) and our person (in terms of emotional processing, awareness of consciousness, etc). That's the foundation from where we can affect more specialized issues. I think if that foundation isn't there, the collective focus wouldn't be strong enough to make much of a difference in anything.
    Last edited by christian; 15th February 2015 at 14:28.

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    -------

    The New York Times article that Stuart Scott mentions at the start of his presentation in video #1 above is this one:

    http://nytimes.com/2014/12/01/world/...alks.html?_r=0

    Scott quotes the second paragraph: (my bold emphasis added)

    Even with a deal to stop the current rate of greenhouse gas emissions, scientists warn, the world will become increasingly unpleasant. Without a deal, they say, the world could eventually become uninhabitable for humans.

    For the New York Times, this is an extraordinary thing to say. I do feel I have to wonder if this may possibly be connected with my thread here:

    From Bill Ryan -- the Ultimate Hypothesis

    For those who haven't read or seen this, the 'Ultimate Hypothesis' is the non-zero possibility that the elite group spearheading the 'Breakaway Civilization' (Richard Dolan's excellent term) may be preparing for at least the option of evacuating the planet. When I posted the thread, why they might decide to do this was a matter of pure conjecture.

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    So far, I've managed to watch the first half of the first video, and decided to temporarily stop to ask my burning question. As far as I can glean, this program is assuming solely global warming - temps going up and up exponentially. But, there is increasing evidence that we are going into another ice age. The arctic shelf is melting on the left and increasing on the right - toward Europe I think. So, how does the methane emergency play out when we seem to be heading back into a colder period?

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    By pointing out the fact that ice is melting in one area and increasing in another (the same goes for Antarctica) I am positing that not only are we heading into an ice age, but the location of the north and south poles are shifting. This necessarily means that new areas get frozen while frozen ones (methane-rich) are melting.

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    On the lighter side....

    With conflicting ideology and the science behind it, why not play it safe and just give the planet a massive dose of Gas-X?





    "Gas-X, the pressure is off".

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    After just watching the above doc from 2002 again about a couple
    of lakes one in Cameroon which seems to be releasing Carbon Monoxide.
    The other in Rwanda Lake Kivu has the Methane problem. Which
    potentially threatens the life of aprox 2,000,000 locals if it was
    released by a seismic event. As suggested at the end of the doc,
    large scale removal of the methane was the only answer, I thought
    I better check what the situation is now .Which shows the removal
    of the methane seems to be happening.

    There is still potential danger.........


    Lake Kivu in Rwanda has enough methane gas in its volcanic lake bed to power several countries



    Lake Kivu


    Satellite image of Lake Kivu courtesy of NASA


    Methane extraction[edit]





    Beach near Gisenyi
    Lake Kivu has recently been found to contain approximately 55 billion
    cubic metres (72 billion cubic yards) of dissolved biogas at a depth of
    300 metres (1,000 ft). Until 2004, extraction of the gas was done on a
    small scale, with the extracted gas being used to run boilers at a
    brewery, the Bralirwa brewery in Gisenyi. As far as large-scale
    exploitation of this resource is concerned, the Rwandan government
    has negotiated with a number of parties to produce methane from the lake.

    In 2011 ContourGlobal, a U.S. based energy company focused on emerging
    markets, secured project financing to initiate a large-scale methane
    extraction project. The project will be run through a local Rwandan entity
    called KivuWatt, using an offshore barge platform to extract, separate, and
    clean the gasses obtained from the lake bed before pumping purified methane
    via an underwater pipeline to on-shore gas engines. Stage one of the project
    aims to build and supply three "gensets" along the lake shore, totaling 25MW
    of electrical capacity. Initial project operations are scheduled to commence in
    2012. In addition to managing gas extraction, KivuWatt will also manage
    the electrical generation plants and on-sell the electrical power to the Rwandan
    government under the terms of a long-term Power Purchase Agreement (PPA).
    This allows KivuWatt to control a vertically integrated energy offering from
    point of extraction to point of sale into the local grid. Extraction is said to be
    cost-effective and relatively simple because once the gas-rich water is pumped
    up, the dissolved gases (primarily carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulphide and methane)
    begin to bubble out as the water pressure gets lower. This project is expected
    to increase Rwanda's energy generation capability by as much as 20 times, and
    will enable Rwanda to sell electricity to neighboring African countries.[The firm
    was awarded the 2011 Africa Power deal of the year for innovation in the financing
    arrangements it obtained from various sources for the KivuWatt project. [

    A problem associated with the prevalence of methane is that of mazuku.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Kivu


    and they are trying to attract tourists to the areas natural beauty.....

    Lake Kivu Serena Hotel - Gisenyi, Rwanda



    Published on 30 Jul 2014


    http://davidsbeenhere.com David’s Been Here is touring all the top sites and best
    accommodation options in Rwanda, Africa. If you’re looking to spot some of
    Rwanda’s world-famous mountain gorillas, you should head for Volcanoes National
    Park. If you’re looking for a comfortable and luxurious stay in between your
    mountain treks, head for Gisenyi’s Lake Kivu Serena Hotel. Rwanda’s only 5-star
    hotel, this lakefront getaway has 65 beautiful rooms, a refreshing swimming pool,
    spa, fitness center and loads of water-based activities. Visit the nearby hot springs,
    go boating to the lake’s various islands or just relax in the tranquil, hospitable
    Serena atmosphere. Situated around one of Africa’s most beautiful lakes and only
    an hour away from Volcanoes National Park, a stay at Lake Kivu Serena Hotel is
    truly one to remember.
    Last edited by Cidersomerset; 15th February 2015 at 22:24.

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    Joe, thanks for bringing expanding earth theory into the discussion. The rock at the bottom of all oceanic floor is 70 million years old, while rock on the continents is billions of years old. This means ALL ocean area is not more than 70 million years. This means the earth was 1/4 the size it is now 70 million years ago. This means the expansion event that happened 70 million years ago was enough to increase the size of this planet by 3/4ths. No wonder the dinosaurs died off!

    All signs indicate we are in another earth expansion event. How much will it increase? What will happen to the atmosphere? How will methane, CO2, oxygen, hydrogen, and all the other gases react to expansion? What happens with the global warming/ice age consequences? Will we have continents further separated from each other? Will volcanoes create new land masses?

    No one knows anything.

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    -------

    Here's the wonderful graphic image (by artist Horst Haitzinger) shown by Stuart Scott in video #1:

    (...if you only watch one video on this topic, make it that one)


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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    ---
    Scott quotes the second paragraph: (my bold emphasis added)[INDENT][INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]
    Even with a deal to stop the current rate of greenhouse gas emissions, scientists warn, the world will become increasingly unpleasant. Without a deal, they say, the world could eventually become uninhabitable for humans.
    ---
    Unless life adapts itself again to changing circumstances as it has always done ...

    Was methane on Pandora in Avatar a shot across the bow ?

    Example:
    Quote Life in the Abyss

    If there is a harsher place to live than a hydrothermal vent, it hasn't been found yet. Pitch darkness, poison gas, heavy metals, extreme acidity,
    enormous pressure, water at turns frigid and searing—this seafloor environment seems more like something from deep space than from our own
    deep sea.
    ---
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/...the-abyss.html

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    Actively ^reversing^ the image : )

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    -------

    Here's the wonderful graphic image (by artist Horst Haitzinger) shown by Stuart Scott in video #1:

    ---

    Wonderful indeed ... the image explains the situation well. It's workmen falling for the game
    of money who operate that machine. The banksters in suits are only watching how the workmen are
    all to eagerly rolling up their sleeves to do their bidding.

    So guess where the solution needs to be found ...

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    The New York Times article that Stuart Scott mentions at the start of his presentation in video #1 above is this one:

    http://nytimes.com/2014/12/01/world/...alks.html?_r=0

    Scott quotes the second paragraph: (my bold emphasis added)

    Even with a deal to stop the current rate of greenhouse gas emissions, scientists warn, the world will become increasingly unpleasant. Without a deal, they say, the world could eventually become uninhabitable for humans.

    For the New York Times, this is an extraordinary thing to say.
    "Without a deal we will all be doomed" is typical alarmist speech employed when advocating inhumane policies. Be it war, quantitative easing or cap and trade. The NYT has published quite some alarmist global warming articles before. Not that there aren't real environmental issues in our world today, but it's a trend to connect them all to global warming and to paint a picture of the massive catastrophes that are looming because of global warming.
    We Can't Wish Away Climate Change

    Here is what scientists have found is happening to our climate: man-made global-warming pollution traps heat from the sun and increases atmospheric temperatures. These pollutants — especially carbon dioxide — have been increasing rapidly with the growth in the burning of coal, oil, natural gas and forests, and temperatures have increased over the same period. Almost all of the ice-covered regions of the Earth are melting — and seas are rising. Hurricanes are predicted to grow stronger and more destructive, though their number is expected to decrease. Droughts are getting longer and deeper in many mid-continent regions, even as the severity of flooding increases. The seasonal predictability of rainfall and temperatures is being disrupted, posing serious threats to agriculture. The rate of species extinction is accelerating to dangerous levels.

    3.6 Degrees of Uncertainty

    The warming that has already occurred is causing enormous damage all over the planet, from dying forests to collapsing sea ice to savage heat waves to torrential rains. And scientists realize they may have underestimated the vulnerability of the ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica.

    Those ice sheets now appear to be in the early stages of breaking up. For instance, Greenland’s glaciers have lately been spitting icebergs into the sea at an accelerated pace, and scientific papers published this year warned that the melting in parts of Antarctica may already be unstoppable.

    “The climate is now out of equilibrium with the ice sheets,” said Andrea Dutton, a geochemist at the University of Florida who studies global sea levels. “They are going to melt.”

    That could ultimately mean 30 feet, or even more, of sea level rise, though scientists have no clear idea of how fast that could happen. They hope it would take thousands of years, but cannot rule out a faster rise that might overwhelm the ability of human society to adapt.

    Heraclitus Hikes the Andes

    Clearly the snow of the Andes was no longer as potent or plentiful, drying up before it had a chance to fully reach the cascades. My eyes were able to measure, right there in front of me, the incontrovertible effect that merciless global warming has on our environment.

    To Save the Planet, Don't Plant Trees

    Deforestation accounts for about 20 percent of global emissions of carbon dioxide. The assumption is that planting trees and avoiding further deforestation provides a convenient carbon capture and storage facility on the land.

    That is the conventional wisdom. But the conventional wisdom is wrong.

    In reality, the cycling of carbon, energy and water between the land and the atmosphere is much more complex. Considering all the interactions, large-scale increases in forest cover can actually make global warming worse.

    Of course, this is counterintuitive. We all learn in school how trees effortlessly perform the marvel of photosynthesis: They take up carbon dioxide from the air and make oxygen. This process provides us with life, food, water, shelter, fiber and soil. The earth’s forests generously mop up about a quarter of the world’s fossil-fuel carbon emissions every year.

    So it’s understandable that we’d expect trees to save us from rising temperatures, but climate science tells a different story. Besides the amount of greenhouse gases in the air, another important switch on the planetary thermostat is how much of the sun’s energy is taken up by the earth’s surface, compared to how much is reflected back to space. The dark color of trees means that they absorb more of the sun’s energy and raise the planet’s surface temperature.

    Climate scientists have calculated the effect of increasing forest cover on surface temperature. Their conclusion is that planting trees in the tropics would lead to cooling, but in colder regions, it would cause warming.
    Meanwhile, it recently came out that temperature data has been massively manipulated.
    The fiddling with temperature data is the biggest science scandal ever

    Paul Homewood […] had checked the published temperature graphs for three weather stations in Paraguay against the temperatures that had originally been recorded. In each instance, the actual trend of 60 years of data had been dramatically reversed, so that a cooling trend was changed to one that showed a marked warming. […]

    Homewood checked a swathe of other South American weather stations around the original three. In each case he found the same suspicious one-way “adjustments”. First these were made by the US government’s Global Historical Climate Network (GHCN). They were then amplified by two of the main official surface records, the Goddard Institute for Space Studies (Giss) and the National Climate Data Center (NCDC), which use the warming trends to estimate temperatures across the vast regions of the Earth where no measurements are taken. Yet these are the very records on which scientists and politicians rely for their belief in “global warming”.

    Homewood has now turned his attention to the weather stations across much of the Arctic […]. Again, in nearly every case, the same one-way adjustments have been made, to show warming up to 1 degree C or more higher than was indicated by the data that was actually recorded.

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    Quote Posted by Snowflower (here)

    By pointing out the fact that ice is melting in one area and increasing in another (the same goes for Antarctica) I am positing that not only are we heading into an ice age, but the location of the north and south poles are shifting. This necessarily means that new areas get frozen while frozen ones (methane-rich) are melting.
    Paul Beckwith (University of Ottawa‚ the same guy in video #3, with his cats ) explains starting at 22:12 in the first video why the Arctic is melting, but the Antarctic is freezing... the same topic as in my thread here:

    The Arctic is melting, the Antarctic is freezing. What does this mean?

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    Multiple different variables: actual climate changes, warmer or colder caused by methane, human fossil fuel use, and/or unknown cause from the sun and/or deep space; expanding earth; sun changes from an unknown cause; human manipulation of weather facts; human manipulation of atmosphere (Chemtrails), other?

    This has to go into the same category as Yellowstone caldera. Nothing we can do about it, focus on something else.

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Paul Beckwith (University of Ottawa‚ the same guy in video #3, with his cats ) explains starting at 22:12 in the first video why the Arctic is melting, but the Antarctic is freezing...
    He says the arctic is melting because the snow and ice cover is melting exponentially. It's melting cause it's melting, it's a circular argument.

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    Quote Posted by Snowflower (here)

    This has to go into the same category as Yellowstone caldera. Nothing we can do about it, focus on something else.
    In his opening of video #2, Stuart Scott, who is a scientist, says that we should all pray. That might tell us something.

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    Quote Posted by christian (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Paul Beckwith (University of Ottawa‚ the same guy in video #3, with his cats ) explains starting at 22:12 in the first video why the Arctic is melting, but the Antarctic is freezing...
    He says the arctic is melting because the snow and ice cover is melting exponentially. It's melting cause it's melting, it's a circular argument.
    It's a vicious-circle process. The more ice melts, the less sunlight is reflected, and the more sunlight (and heat) is absorbed.

    Moreover, the 500 to 5000 billion tons of methane is all frozen (but maybe not for long) in a shallow (200 feet deep) continental shelf just north of Siberia. That's already starting to melt quite quickly.

    The current amount of methane in the atmosphere is 5 billion tons. The amount that could be released is 100 to 1000 times as much. A [currently very rough] estimate of the amount that is in the process of being released is 50 billion tons (10 times as much as present).

    Methane is on average 86 times as potent a greenhouse gas as CO2. What does this mean?

    In the first two videos (from the COP20 conference), Dr Peter Wadhams (Professor of Ocean Physics, Cambridge) and Dr Ira Leifer (Atmospheric Scientist, University of California) both state that this runaway process could be a civilization-ending event.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 15th February 2015 at 16:29.

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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    [...]
    ...the Arctic is melting, but the Antarctic is freezing...
    [...]
    Actually, they are currently both freezing!

    Winter up North and ice-breaker needed down South:

    http://iceagenow.info/2015/02/u-s-ic...antarctic-ice/

    http://iceagenow.info/2015/02/antarc...oat-stuck-ice/
    Last edited by Hervé; 15th February 2015 at 16:49.
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    Default Re: The Methane Problem

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    It's a vicious-circle process. The more ice melts, the less sunlight is reflected, and the more sunlight (and heat) is absorbed.

    Moreover, the 500 to 5000 billion tons of methane is all frozen (but maybe not for long) in a shallow (200 feet deep) continental shelf just north of Siberia. That's already starting to melt quite quickly.
    That still doesn't explain why the Arctic melts while the Antarctic is freezing, though. Hervé recently published some interesting posts on your other thread that could explain it. It seems to be because of undersea volcanic activity. Something else that most climate scientists did not have on their radars.

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    The current amount of methane in the atmosphere is 5 billion tons. The amount that could be released is 100 to 1000 times as much. A [currently very rough] estimate of the amount that is in the process of being released is 50 billion tons (10 times as much as present).

    Methane is on average 86 times as potent a greenhouse gas as CO2. What does this mean?

    In the first two videos (from the COP20 conference), Dr Peter Wadhams (Professor of Ocean Physics, Cambridge) and Dr Ira Leifer (Atmospheric Scientist, University of California) both state that this runaway process could be a civilization-ending event.
    Estimates in climate forecast hardly ever seemed reliable so far. But even if they would be, currently methane makes up 0.000179% of the atmosphere. I don't see how even a drastic increase there could be civilization-ending. CO2 and methane are greenhouse gases, but there are so many other factors influencing the climate besides the greenhouse effect. And then, there are effects of greenhouse gases that are not usually reported, like desert greening due to increased CO2.
    Last edited by christian; 15th February 2015 at 16:46.

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