Evidence That A Boeing 757 Really Did Impact the Pentagon on 9/11

[Operator]

Posted by jaybee (here)
One theory that I have toyed with is that being successfully attacked on the mainland by the
'enemy'......was a huge embarrassment to national pride...that some sections of the govt. might
have encouraged the 'Inside Job' conspiracy because...it would divert attention away from
what looks to be a almost totally successful mission by a small group of terrorists....

The World's 'Superpower' brought to it's knees...briefly... by a handful of highly organised and
motivated group of Islamic terrorists..... ???

... you're getting warm I guess. We're not watching just a chess game ... we're watching a game and learn the rules on the fly, there are multiple players too. So be careful who is covering up
for whom in his/her own interest ...

[jimmer]

P of M, here's an except from wikipedia:

Cockpit Voice Recorder
A photograph of the cockpit voice recorder from American Airlines Flight 77, as used in an exhibit at the Moussaoui trial.
At around 3:40 a.m on September 14, a paramedic and a firefighter who were searching through the debris of the impact site found two dark boxes, about 1.5 by 2 feet long.
They called for an FBI agent, who in turn called for someone from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).
The NTSB employee confirmed that these were the black boxes from American Airlines Flight 77.[80]
Dick Bridges, deputy manager for Arlington County, Virginia, said the voice recorder was damaged on the outside and the flight data recorder was charred.
But he said the FBI still was confident the data can be recovered from both. Bridges said the recorders were found "right where the plane came into the building."[81]



photograph of the cockpit voice recorder
from American Airlines Flight 77,
as used in an exhibit at the Moussaoui trial.


bonus round: popular mechanics analysis

I read this years ago, but for those who haven't seen or heard of this, here's the link.
please give this some attention and time. challenge yourselves.

"It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why...
I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building.
I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them..."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...myths-pentagon

look, we can and will go round and round on all the vast aspects of the 911 story. it will lead nowhere.
this thread is specifically for investigating the pentagon event: was it a plane or was it something else?
if something else, where's the hard evidence. not speculation or fuzzy video that's inconclusive and left to our biases.
so far there has been plenty of hard, physical, photographic evidence presented that it was a plane. the plane. fight 77.
if it was a plane, an airliner filled with innocence, then a single, yet important act of the conspiracy story doesn't work.

[jaybee]

Posted by Richard (here)
Check the vid below from a surveilance helicopter watching the Pentagon at the time. The video is 25 seconds and the missile/plane shoots in from the bottom left at the 23 second mark.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=8Vnu_yiUzls

Looks like a missile to me.


Attachment 2137
just before impact

Posted by Peace of Mind (here)
hmmm....


https://youtube.com/watch?v=mnzh-EyxKwc


Peace

I've just had a EUREKA moment.....

New theory.... It was a missile AND the airliner !!!!! ??????

The 757 was almost certainly under close surveillance..... the military knew that they had a
major problem with it. Was it heading for the Pentagon.?? After the WTC towers...they knew what
was coming. They didn't want to shoot it down over houses or roads....the plane did that big
loop round....they now knew for sure that the Pentagon was the target...they got it in their sights
(military jet???) they fired the missile.....

They MISSED the airliner but hit the Pentagon....then a few seconds later the 757 hit the
Pentagon as well !!!

They had bombed their own Department of Defence headquarters ! They had tried to
stop the 757.....but they failed to do so.

On top of everything else that was going on that day...it was decided to keep quiet about
missing the target...about hitting their headquarters. To save face.

This is why there is so much confusion + secrecy about the incident.....???

What do you think???? Could this be what happened????

[jimmer]

"New theory.... It was a missile AND the airliner !!!!! ??????"

and I'm a golf professional.

come on, get serious.
the pentagon happened to close to the WTC. the air force wasn't fully engaged yet.

and what about this aerial 'missile' video that's been going around (lately featured on another PA thread).
where did it come from? who shot it? where's the credibility?
some background, please.

[jaybee]

Posted by jimmer (here)
"New theory.... It was a missile AND the airliner !!!!! ??????"

and I'm a golf professional.

come on, get serious.
the pentagon happened to close to the WTC. the air force wasn't in the air yet.

and what about this aerial 'missile' video that's been going around (lately featured on another PA thread).
where did it come from? who shot it? where the credibility?
some background, please.

Interesting response jimmer..........mmmmmmmmmm.... and I have to say,
not what I was expecting...but it IS the conspiracy to top all conspiracies...
I must remember that. Except the Moon Landing one of course....lol.

I can't remember how long after the Twin Towers the Pentagon happened...but
I'm pretty sure it was long enough for military planes to get into the air....it was
a major attack on the USA after all...the first one on the mainland in it's history,
I believe?

I am totally serious.

Hole in one....?

LOL

[jimmer]

'pretty sure' we need more facts...

[HORIZONS]

Posted by jimmer (here)
'pretty sure' we need more facts...

Heck no! who needs facts - we just need a great conspiracy to go off on. LOL

[Peace of Mind]

I appreciate the efforts jimmer. really, i do.
Since the topic is about "the pentagon" and what hit it....did you happen to find anything credible? I mean, much of the debris we see in these pictures have a possiblity to be prop there, especially when News Reporters (who were first on the sceen) reporting other wise...do we really know, who really knows? What I really want to know is who were the people that were on the planes that crashed into these buildings? I believe a lot of answers can come from there...

Peace

[jaybee]

Posted by jimmer (here)
"New theory.... It was a missile AND the airliner !!!!! ??????"

the pentagon happened to close to the WTC. the air force wasn't fully engaged yet.

Posted by jimmer (here)
'pretty sure' we need more facts...

OK....I'll play the 9/11 'evidence' game.....as exhausting as it is........

Noooooooooooooooooooo how did I let this happen...lol...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...ber_11_attacks


8:20: The Federal Aviation Administration's Boston Center flight controllers decide that Flight 11 has probably been hijacked.

8:46: Two F-15 fighter jets are ordered to scramble from Otis Air National Guard Base in Massachusetts, intended to intercept Flight 11. Because Flight 11's transponder is off, the pilots do not know the location of their target. NEADS spends the next several minutes watching their radar screens in anticipation of Flight 11 returning a radar contact.

8:46:40: Flight 11 crashes at roughly 490 mph (790km/h or 219m/s or 425 knots) into the north face of the North Tower (1 WTC) of the World Trade Center, between floors 93 and 99. (Many early accounts gave times between 8:45 and 8:50)


8:50 to 8:54 (approx.): Hijacking begins on Flight 77.

8:54: Flight 77 deviates from its assigned course, turning south over Ohio.

8:56: The transponder on Flight 77 is turned off and even primary radar contact with the aircraft is lost. During radar blackout Flight 77 turns east, unnoticed by flight controllers. When primary radar information is restored at 9:05, controllers look futilely for Flight 77 west of its previous position.[6] Flight 77 travels undetected for 36 minutes on a course heading due east toward Washington, D.C.

9:35: Based on a report that Flight 77 had turned again and was circling back toward the District of Columbia, the Secret Service orders the immediate evacuation of the Vice President from the White House.

9:37:46: Flight 77 crashes into the western side of the Pentagon and starts a violent fire. The section of the Pentagon hit consists mainly of newly renovated, unoccupied offices. All 64 people on board are killed, as are 125 Pentagon personnel.

.........................................................................................


That's about the Airliner.....next about the missile....


http://www.hks.harvard.edu/visions/p...ism.htm#Crisis and Consequence Management

However, if some agency of the U.S. government learned that a large scale WMD attack might actually be imminent, threatening tens of thousands of lives, we expect that this structure for responding would almost instantly be pushed aside. The White House would immediately become involved and would seek to use every bit of power at America’s disposal in order to avert or contain the attack. The operational command structure would need to be capable of directing everything from CIA covert actions to strikes by bombers or missiles, be able to set up interdiction involving ground, sea, and air forces, and be able to mobilize and move thousands of soldiers (active duty, ready reserve, and National Guard) and thousands of tons of freight (in various emergency supplies and support for deployed units). Nor can any of these actions happen quickly unless plans have already been drawn up and units designated to carry them out, with repeated training and exercises to create a readiness to bring the plans to life. In this situation, the Defense Department’s capabilities would immediately become paramount. The FBI does not command such resources and does not plan to command them.

Fighter jets had been in the air for nearly an hour.


At this point I would like to say that I understand the huge problems facing the US Govt.
and military that fateful day.....and that they were faced with making some extremely
difficult decisions in a short space of time....

[Dale]

Hello! Very interesting thread, everyone.

I've given a few small presentations on 9/11, it's implications, and the "run up" to the event; and, in my opinion, it was a jet.

Not a Boeing 757, however. There was a large, low flying jet present in the sky that morning around the time of the Pentagon strike, but it didn't smash into anything. The jet used in the attack was smaller.

I've met with several pilots who have told me that a Boeing 757, going over 570 miles per hour (as the official story suggests), cannot fly at a stable rate at a height low enough to damage street lamps. When a plane that large, flying that fast, attempts to get below about 60 feet, it is forced back upward into the air. It would be incredibly difficult to stay at that low of an altitude with a target in mind - especially for a rookie pilot who struggles flying a Cessna.

I'd love to sit here and keep going on this thread, but I have to make some breakfast now

[jimmer]

thanks jaybee for the timeline.
it was my memory that the tower and pentagon events happened closer together,
but memory isn't evidence, either is speculation.
we're all leaning things with this tread.

TheCR: not a 757? but the onsite, on the ground analysis presented on p. 1 puts the
parts together as consistent with a 757. take a look if you haven't had a chance yet.
what's your take from this evidence?

[Operator]

Posted by jimmer (here)
TheCR: not a 757? but the onsite, on the ground analysis presented on p. 1 puts the
parts together as consistent with a 757. take a look if you haven't had a chance yet.
what's your take from this evidence?

I don't get it (or maybe I do) ... why are you 'selling' the idea so much ?

If I would tell you that I saw someone jump UP a building 30 feet high would you believe me just because I told you ? Would it be more
credible if I came with 10 witnesses ?

The thing is that it is easy to understand that a normal individual cannot jump that high. So why is it so hard to accept the fact that
certain things in this life are physically impossible like a 757 making the alleged manoeuvres.

Like I said before you don't need, and should not use, handed down material to verify if the official statements are true.

[HORIZONS]

Posted by Operator (here)
I don't get it (or maybe I do) ... why are you 'selling' the idea so much ?

If I would tell you that I saw someone jump UP a building 30 feet high would you believe me just because I told you ? Would it be more
credible if I came with 10 witnesses ?

The thing is that it is easy to understand that a normal individual cannot jump that high. So why is it so hard to accept the fact that
certain things in this life are physically impossible like a 757 making the alleged manoeuvres.

Like I said before you don't need, and should not use, handed down material to verify if the official statements are true.

Maybe it was a lucky shot We could call it the lucky shot heard round the world. JK

[Dale]

TheCR: not a 757? but the onsite, on the ground analysis presented on p. 1 puts the
parts together as consistent with a 757. take a look if you haven't had a chance yet.
what's your take from this evidence?

To be honest, I have no explanation for this. The information I've gathered from the pilots I've talked to strongly suggests that a Boeing 757 could not maintain steady flight at such a low altitude, traveling at such a high rate of speed. Even the "aerobatics" performed in the skies above Washington by the hijacked jet several minutes before crashing would be extremely difficult to execute. The G-force of the execution would be quite unbearable. However, I am not a pilot, nor a terrorist, so it's impossible for me to tell you firsthand. I do respect the opinions given by the pilots and individuals I've interviewed, though.

Like I said earlier, I have given presentations on this subject a handful of times, to small groups, and I would be more than happy to revise my presentation to include more data about Flight 77 if the Avalon Community was interested.

And thanks for providing such an interesting thread! I always enjoy an intelligent discussion and debate on the 9/11 issue, or any issue for that matter

[Operator]

Posted by HORIZONS (here)
Maybe it was a lucky shot We could call it the lucky shot heard round the world. JK

Make it 3 .... 3 lucky shots in 1 day ?

[jaybee]

Posted by jimmer (here)
thanks jaybee for the timeline.
it was my memory that the tower and pentagon events happened closer together,
but memory isn't evidence, either is speculation.
we're all leaning things with this tread.

As the waters are so muddy re. 9/11....speculation is as good as it gets sometimes...


I don't know if anyone has every put forward a Missile and Plane speculation
before? Surely they have...,it's been 9 years now.

Perhaps it's 9/11 fatigue...repetative strain injury. Strain to the brain....

I probably wont be bothered about it myself in a couple days....because this 9/11
business is very draining. But I did stumble on this when I was having a google
around to see if there was anything to back up my speculation.

Or should I say...logic based speculation, without a hope in hell of ever getting anywhere...
if only for the reason that if I'm right, it's all going to be classified.

But anyway....

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...tagon#bigplane

Claim: Two holes were visible in the Pentagon immediately after the attack: a 75-ft.-wide entry hole in the building's exterior wall, and a 16-ft.-wide hole in Ring C, the Pentagon's middle ring. Conspiracy theorists claim both holes are far too small to have been made by a Boeing 757. "How does a plane 125 ft. wide and 155 ft. long fit into a hole which is only 16 ft. across?" asks reopen911.org, a Web site "dedicated to discovering the bottom line truth to what really occurred on September 11, 2001."

The reply to this is on the link........but I'm thinking...TWO holes. One for the missile and one
for the plane (757) ? Perhaps. Maybe.


On this Video that Peace of Mind posted the person who made it is showing that some
frames are missing. I'm speculating....are the frames that are missing... when the missile
was zooming past?

You have to watch the video really carefully to see exactly what he means. The shots after
the missing frames show what looks like the nose of a plane still there...when the fire
is burning.... From when the missile hit? He's not saying that... I am.

For anyone who hasn't seen my last two posts... I'm saying that the military could have
tried to shoot down the 757 but missed and went into the building just before the plane
did.... I'm also thinking that the plane was probably banking which wouldn't leave such
a big hole as some people think?

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=mnzh-EyxKwc

That's probably all I've got....so make of it what you will....

[jimmer]

here's a youtube link to a coast to coast debate' discussing what happened at WTC.
both sides of the argument are represented (though, no flight 77 discussion).

it's interesting to listen to the 'no inside job' group keep asking,
'where did you get that?' 'there's no evidence of that.'

give a listen if you have the time.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=zzdSb...eature=related

[jaybee]

Posted by jimmer (here)
look, we can and will go round and round on all the vast aspects of the 911 story. it will lead nowhere.
this thread is specifically for investigating the pentagon event: was it a plane or was it something else?
.

Ahem.........


I see you've changed your mind about your thread....which you are perfectly entitled
to do, of course.


I don't know what on earth happened to flight 77....re, Pentagon.


But one line of enquiry is....if the plane didn't hit the Pentagon...where did it go?


On the news on the day...at 2:55 and at 5:16...they say that they have
a report...that there is a fire at the Mall...which isn't very far from the Pentagon.


I understand that there was massive confusion on that day...but I think it's a bit
weird....ie. where did that report come from? Was there a fire at the Mall?





https://youtube.com/watch?v=fxV2X...eature=related

[jimmer]

jaybee,
so I saved some bandwidth not opening a new thread.
besides, seems that any useful, factual information on 77 has been presented.
(more is welcome.)

nonetheless, the conversation facts, speculation, rebuttals are interesting.
the two tribes rarely meet.

[Teakai]

Posted by friamin (here)
I think there are a lot of very good points being made here but until the videos are released of the pentagon we will never know for sure what happened. ]

I suspect that if the public ever gets to lay eyes on them they will likely to have been doctored. Just as they did with the JFK assasination video.