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Thread: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Very interesting, Ankle Biter. These days, after years of meditating, I normally start my meditating in what may be practically the same way as you. I like to briefly "anchor" or "ground" myself first, which involves very mindfully becoming aware usually of what sensations my bottom is feeling and where my body's currently located in the room. I also very briefly throw a little energy out from solar plexus to the ceiling and the floor and then back into my body. I also usually very briefly focus on my breath or specifically, like you, on some nearby object or location. I do all this quickly, so it takes well under a minute to do.

    You would probably know that in ancient China (and also Japan) the primary concept, underlying all others, was of the universe always being in a state of perfect balance and ultimately harmony, beautiful, intertwined harmony, and including aspects of reality which were at the present given moment undifferentiated. Everything-ness as nothingness. Your post suggests that you tune into something like that too.

    I don't know if you additionally always "tune in" to some aspect of mathematical beauty. Yes, I'm also familiar with the little-known fact that mathematics can be experienced and treated as an art form and even in some major respects as the greatest art form of all -- but try to tell a maths class in early high school that! These days, in meditation I tend to just dwell in emptiness, but also to face and smooth out whatever issues from my daily life are coming, because I want meditation to help me get my life more right as well.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
    You would probably know that in ancient China (and also Japan) the primary concept, underlying all others, was of the universe always being in a state of perfect balance and ultimately harmony, beautiful, intertwined harmony, and including aspects of reality which were at the present given moment undifferentiated. Everything-ness as nothingness. Your post suggests that you tune into something like that too.
    It's actually not like that, it can be 'measured' on some ways (i'm not sure if using the right word here) but you must avoid thinking that 'everything is balanced' because then there is 'order' and that means nothing can't escape it, not even your raising soul. So you don't grow much more after you learn this concept

    If you look at old Japanese room, it's mostly empty, the rooms are very big but no furniture or other things around, only ones are placed in some places around the room, but not in specific locations at all, you know why?

    Some here, some there, but nothing is located in exact places, some more to the left, some more to the right, this and that but never everything is measured to be on a very calculated place

    That's 'Enso' as you may know it, "The beauty of imperfection"
    https://ensotherapy.co/enso-story

    The "Zen circle" as its called, which is actually not the real thing but i believe it does explain the concept well, is like this

    https://thezenuniverse.org/enso-circle-enlightenment/

    Quote The opening of the circle has many interpretations. The open circle is a concept that reflects closely the teaching of the Japanese Zen Buddhism – ensō is an emblem of Zen Buddhism – and it represents and suggests cutting the desire for perfection and allowing the universe to be as it is. This symbol is also used to indicate an instance in which “the mind is free to let the body create”.
    But even if i agree with this, i must affirm, very hardly, that there is no "Zen Buddhism", it's either one or the other, Zen came out from Buddhism, but is not a 'shared' experience at all, but that's very very hard to explain

    Quote The Japanese practice of drawing the ensō requires that you allow your body to create freely and then observe the result without feeling the urge to modify your actions. According to Buddhist tradition, one should draw the ensō in a single, swift stroke, and is not possible to go back and change the drawing.
    Just like life, you may be able to keep going, but the things done, *are done*

    Quote I don't know if you additionally always "tune in" to some aspect of mathematical beauty. Yes, I'm also familiar with the little-known fact that mathematics can be experienced and treated as an art form and even in some major respects as the greatest art form of all -- but try to tell a maths class in early high school that!
    Doesn't that mean that previous teachers failed to teach properly? As well as parents guide?

    Quote These days, in meditation I tend to just dwell in emptiness, but also to face and smooth out whatever issues from my daily life are coming, because I want meditation to help me get my life more right as well.
    Don't 'dwell' or get your mind 'still'. It will only put you on a situation where you never advance or challenge yourself to take another step. Otherwise known as "i'm comfortable here, this is peace", which yes and not, it's ego telling you to remain within yourself and not challenge or risk going "out". It's the "I don't need more than this" aspect of spiritual life road, which is not how it's supposed to be
    Last edited by Mashika; 14th October 2021 at 07:08.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Yes, I think I'm always tuned into it, but not at a level to fully grasp what those great mathematicians formulated, not even close lol. Maybe just enough to recognize it play out in a multitude of ways (yet simple) in ordered reality and at the same time witness the ?. Which brings to mind for me the old debate if mathematics is something we invented or discovered... for me it is really hard accepting the former, what's your take TH?.

    So yeah in grounding or anchor part of a meditation the tuning in part to me is seeing order and form through something looked at, listened to.. (mathematics in music is a very interesting rabbit hole.), felt etc.. then I guess applying axioms, as within without, as above so below, ying and yang, everything and nothing which all serves as a means to then see both just to then detach to self (can we even?). I think this is kind of the same as what you're saying which happens at the start of a meditation for a minute or so?... This might be what I was trying to say a few posts back about something lost that I used to have..I shouldn't have mentioned in terms of OBE's maybe.

    Maybe I didn't know how to write or express it but what you said I think better describes what I meant, getting a state of emptiness before meditating was something i too could reach in few minutes but then after getting distracted and lost in the market place and maybe a dodgy chicken vindaloo later lol, the efficiency of a learned skill was not gone but somewhat diminished in efficiency and needed a tune up in itself. This is probably commonplace for everyone I guess, something chalked up as part of a human experience and line drawn through it every night when we go to sleep and wake up anew in an attempt to smooth out daily life and at least marginally do it a bit more right than before.
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. -Lao Tzu

    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by Ankle Biter (here)

    Maybe I didn't know how to write or express it but what you said I think better describes what I meant, getting a state of emptiness before meditating was something i too could reach in few minutes but then after getting distracted and lost in the market place and maybe a dodgy chicken vindaloo later lol, the efficiency of a learned skill was not gone but somewhat diminished in efficiency and needed a tune up in itself.
    You are "practicing" and that's a no for Zen, you should not be practicing, you should just "be"

    If you practice, you always have a bottom to top view.. "I'll be that"

    If you "become" then you "are", and then introspect "who you are", but you already are above the "what is this? stage

    Does that make any sense?

    Question is, should you "practice" or should just "get to it at once".

    Why the wait, If it's been there inside you all along?

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Quote Posted by Ankle Biter (here)

    Maybe I didn't know how to write or express it but what you said I think better describes what I meant, getting a state of emptiness before meditating was something i too could reach in few minutes but then after getting distracted and lost in the market place and maybe a dodgy chicken vindaloo later lol, the efficiency of a learned skill was not gone but somewhat diminished in efficiency and needed a tune up in itself.
    You are "practicing" and that's a no for Zen, you should not be practicing, you should just "be"

    If you practice, you always have a bottom to top view.. "I'll be that"

    If you "become" then you "are", and then introspect "who you are", but you already are above the "what is this? stage

    Does that make any sense?

    Question is, should you "practice" or should just "get to it at once".

    Why the wait, If it's been there inside you all along?
    I am in agreement with just "be" you're talking about I believe, but I may have been falling over my own words again in an attempt to convey properly this 'practicing' idea I mentioned.

    For a moment assume the physical sensation felt in space-time and subsequent perception of reality received directly to our part of self that is the body comprised of matter then we are like an antenna that receives a signal that is information which is confined in mostly the 3D... influencing that are all kinds of stimuli and to choose arbitrarily some examples such as caffeine or sugar or bad chicken curry if you will, lead to variations in quality of signal or range of frequencies perceived, more so when indulged not in moderation... Now I'm not saying that a good signal obtained by good habits and practicing to get to a deep trance like state acts as some kind of upper or lower boundary in the context of 'being'... far from it. but it does pertain to quite real stuff with direct effects which have the ability sweep you up and rip you out of a point of view where it's more a case of mere existing than being.

    Abstinence from practicing meditation is another example for me where I feel similar effects, after a long time away from riding a bike as a metaphor for one of the ways to feel this state of 'being' of course not to say its only way to feel this... they say you don't forget how to ride a bike which is the 'if it's been in you there all along why wait'.. yes precisely.. though, after a few drinks or not riding the bike for some time, any subsequent attempts will be for a brief moment.. be a bit wobbly if you are lucky... but you don't ever really forget and can get into the old stride again.

    I suppose practicing is a one of several tools as is having specific diet, or a multitude of other ways of interacting we as individuals engaging with life around us that experience affects the antenna and quality of signal or how the signal is interpreted.... not for the purpose to just be still and nothing else. It can extend beyond that as well like stresses that emerge when stuff happens to us. We never forget any of our spiritual learning but sometimes a bump in the road pops up.. we fall off the bike and cry while clutching a sore foot or something.. some tears mixed in with a bit of dirt and small rock embedded in the forehead.

    It is my belief that with the practicing the bump in the road might be anticipated and dare I say sometimes aimed for to just get a little bit of air time and doing a little bmx jump to a new level where risk and reward axiom kicks in and you starve off the 'I'm too comfortable here' because it was never about just a physical condition or a sense of perception attained while in meditative state, any less than it's about the ride too.. and who knows what else yet to be discovered and experienced riding through the forest.

    (I think perhaps if before I fell over my words and over complicated a simple point then these last paragraphs could be way worse, and it truly is an epic failure haha.. nevertheless I won't delete and leave it in. & let it just 'be').



    TL;DR Mashika I think what you say makes sense, I might be thinking similarly
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. -Lao Tzu

    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    I started this thread trying to gradually but eventually establish that we all have (or are, or can learn to activate) an inner self, or a deeper self if you like . And that the inner self is without most or all of the undesirable aspects of "self" that often get labelled as "the ego" .

    So, it's just a matter of learning to seek, and eventually be able to quickly locate, that inner self, always. Then it's a matter of teaching yourself to step into it more and more often, and even, eventually, to do so in the middle of hellish things going on all around you and doing their best to intrude into you. You just learn to do it, be it, like Mashika says. Keep building that "muscle". Forget about the distractions -- it doesn't matter if you got indigestion tonight, or you clashed with someone or life wasn't kind to you today, or whatever.

    Never mind about theorizing regarding the obstacles around you. Poor you. Never mind the chaos and craziness and limitations around you. Instead just learn better and better how to feel the bliss of simply being alive, simply existing. To quote from "Shakespeare": "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in our selves." So, just keep finding the inner self, your very own, and the joy and bliss that are always part of it. Be one-pointed and just do that, over and over. The more you find it, the stronger it gets -- though over time the inner joy does get "normalized" for you --- meaning it's no weaker now but it's quieter because it's become more of a deep part of what you recognize as yourself. Spirituality is all about freedom from unhappiness. First things first (and last). By going straight to the inner self you are going straight to the part of you that has bliss at its center. Don't ever neglect it, ever.

    Yes, there are different levels of consciousness or soul or whatever you call it, that you'll develop as you go along. But you don't need to mind too much about what they are, until they've already shown themselves to you directly in your own experience.

    Instead, one just needs to build a strong inner silence -- which isn't "nothing", of course, because nothingness is really everythingness in disguise, and so on. That will automatically clear away the mind-clutter and the consciousness-clutter, so that you can see, and so be, the inner self more clearly.

    To quote G.K. Chesterton: "The way is all so very plain that we may [well] lose the way".

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    TH In thinking on our discussions yesterday I was reminded of another kind of grounding that is not a part of meditation but felt like sharing for no reason, just something I find myself doing from time to time when out and about.. Say for instance there is a place I might go to often like a certain beach or the woods or even just at the supermarket/mall etc.. My awareness will go to a time when I was there before and the time I was there before that and before that again..

    From there I will conceive a possible time in the future I might return to the same place and be directing my conscious thoughts to the time past when I was at that place contemplating of returning in the future. And when that future manifests to a 'now' moment becomes like a type of handshake or up-link with the self that is detached from the flow of time and all the forces that are pulling at us at all the various stages in life. This I feel might be similar to your comment about finding inner self quickly or building that muscle that reduces affects of the life-distractions switch that's sometimes flipped. The beauty of it being that it's an anticipated and familiar connection of the self but always contains or reveals a little something new.




    On separate note, I think maybe I have some difficulty finding ways to convey thoughts and feelings on spiritual ideas or matters pertaining to 'higher self' because I really have never discussed or verbalized outside my shell before. I've always had a hesitancy to subscribe to institutional doctrine or let myself be governed by rigid ritual practice and customs, but will most certainly cherry pick from anything and everything as it finds it's place like a jig saw piece in what is as Authentic as can be my own direct experience of experiencing.

    Here's a short story from Tales of the Tao which might have common threads within that I may have been trying to express ... or not... it isn't terribly important, either way it is interesting where there is tangibility to the notion we touched on regarding precision and order grounded in truth in pure mathematical concepts that is the shape of everything in reality but contained within is the irrational the paradoxical infinities inside finites that arises out of ... ()? pi. square root of 2. magic number monster things.


    Quote Once upon a time, in the Land of the Middle Kingdom, lived a great emperor. This mighty lord lived in a magnificent castle, surrounded by many guards, ladies in-waiting, cooks, artists, philosophers, and doctors. He awoke each day to the soft caresses of one of his many wives, ate his breakfast in a wonderful garden surrounded by the morning song of his many birds, and passed his days in the company of his many admirers and flatterers. But he was not happy.

    He felt he was missing out on some essential thing of life. Just what this essential thing was he did not know, but he knew that he did not have it, and this distressed him endlessly. He filled his court with various magicians and philosophers, all of whom tried to tell him that if he would only listen them and them alone he would find this essential and missing ingredient of his life. But he knew that each was only trying to better his own individual situation, and so did not heed their shining and flattering words.

    Instead, he winnowed them out, one by one, until there were only two groups left, the Confucians and the Taoists. But he could not decide which of them had the secret and essential thing that he was lacking. The Confucians were a haughty yet wise lot. They did not flatter him in silken phrases like other philosophers had. They told him of the mighty days of old, when the emperor was truly the son of heaven and could in heaven’s name. All he had to do was return to those days and revive the ancient ways of the old rites and rituals and his kingdom would prosper - he would be happy and fulfilled, both as a ruler and a man.

    The Taoists, on the other hand, seemed unorganised and motley crew. They never seemed to agree on anything, even among themselves and spent their days performing strange movements like animals in the garden; their nights drinking wine, reciting poetry, and trying to seduce his ladies-in-waiting. But they were said to have great powers over the elements and the secret of eternal life. Of course, when he questioned them about this they only shrugged and said “we have but once precious secret and the one only, my lord”

    “well then,” he would say, “What is this precious thing?”

    “Ah,” they would counter, “We cannot describe this secret in words, great and powerful Lord, we can only show it to you.”

    “Agreed,” said the emperor, and announced a contest between the Confucians and Taoists. Whichever could show him the true secret of their power, he said, would become the supreme teachers of the land.

    On the appointed day, the Confucians and Taoists were led to a great chamber deep in the heart of the castle. A great curtain was drawn down the centre of the room, dividing the Taoists from Confucians. Both groups were told that they were to create a painting, a great work of art, on the wall on either side. This would be the final test of their power and knowledge. Whoever impressed the emperor the most would be awarded the prize.

    The Confucians smiled and quickly ordered all the colours that were available in the royal storerooms. They immediately went to work designing and painting a magnificent mural. The Taoists, on the other hand, ordered a great deal of wine and few dozen soft cloths, the softest that were available. Then they went to work opening the wine.

    Day after day the Confucians labored on their huge and wondrous mural. Day after day the Taoists ordered more wine and simply rubbed the wall with their soft cloths, over and over, while singing old drinking songs at the top of their lungs.

    Finally came the day when the emperor would review each work of art and make his decision. First he visited the Confucians’ side of the room, certain that he would be in for a visual treat. He had watched how assiduously the Confucians had applied their layers of colours on the wall and how they stopped often to study the ancient texts and perform slow and stately rituals before taking up their brushes again.

    He was not disappointed. The Confucians had created a marvel of colour and form. He saw his whole city laid out before him, with his own castle in the very centre of the city, the golden light of the setting sun glinting off its shapely and graceful roofs. At the edge of the painting he saw his own magnificent form astride his favourite war horse, leading his victorious troops into battle against and already vanquished enemy.

    A great river ran across the bottom of the painting with cunning little waves painted all over it and the curly shadows of birds suspended above it. It was truly a wondrous and amazing sight and the emperor was at a loss as to how the Taoists could top it.

    Imagine his surprise then when he crossed over to the other side of the room to view the Taoists’ work only to find a completely blank wall and a lot of slightly tipsy Taoists doing their strange cloud-like movements. True, the wall was very shiny and smooth after numerous applications with the soft cloths but there was nothing there, no paintings of his magnificence, no golden palace, no wondrous river. “What is this,” he thundered, “you did not even try to paint a picture. Is this the way you curry my favour?”

    “Oh but we have done our best!” cried the Taoists indignantly, and a little rudely.

    But there is nothing there, “ said the emperor, “Is this truly how you view me? Is this your precious secret?”

    “Wait one moment please,” said the oldest and tipsiest of the Taoists, his long beard still damp with wine. “Please draw aside the curtain between our walls and you will truly see our work”

    So shaking his head in wonder, the emperor had the curtain drawn, revealing the dazzling painting of the Confucians. The emperor stood before it once again, marvelling at its wonder (and how they seemed to get his noble brow just so). Then, his mind already made up as to who was the the winner this day, he turned once again to the Taoists’ blank wall, only to find there, not a blank wall after all but the reflection of the painting on the opposite wall. Only this time, instead of a flat and static picture, he saw reflected the unbelievably smooth and shiny wall, a moving picture.

    Somehow, because of the play of light on the shiny surface there, it seemed as though the painting had come alive. There was the palace and the town again, only he thought he could detect movement behind its windows. The river itself moved, the waves lapping against each other and the birds pirouetting overhead. And lastly, he could see himself there, astride his great stallion, whose very nostrils seemed to quiver in the air while his own beard fluttered in the breeze and his lips seem to move with own shouted ordered to his troops.

    He was amazed. He was astounded. he turned to the tipsy Taoists and asked them with humility and wonder in his voice just how they had managed this miracle. The Taoists seemed to hang their heads just a little and answered simply.

    “It is actually in not doing that we achieved this wondrous thing, Sire all we did was create the space for the painting to happen and it painted itself.”

    “Is this then your precious secret?” asked the great lord.

    “Yes,” answered the Taoists, “it is indeed.”

    “We call it Wu Wei”
    https://www.alanranger.com/blogs/the-way-of-wu-wei
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. -Lao Tzu

    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Firstly, Ankle Biter, you began by describing a certain type of ability you have to trace back and recall details
    of your past visits to a given location. Well, the unleashing, the acquisition within oneself of certain inner
    abilities or powers, is one of the things that normally occur when one activates the Higher Self. I haven't talked
    about these specifically in this thread before.

    Actually, first there comes the activation of the inner self (before there can be the activation of the Higher
    Self). The inner self, as Barry Long called it, is "the inner body". This is made of energy within oneself and it
    needs to be awoken, I think in ways somewhat similar to aspects of how some fundamentalist Christians conceive
    being "born again" to be (though I may be wrong about that). Here the inner self fully (and I think permanently)
    takes over the electro-magneto-chemical soft-metal robot known as your (physical) body and your surface
    consciousness or your surface perceptions.

    Secondly, there comes the activation of the Higher Self. This involves a kind of splitting between the overall
    body-consciousness on the one hand, and a withdrawal from that and into a permanent state of a certain degree of
    presence or mindfulness that centers itself within the spine and brain and their energy fields. The activation of
    the Higher Self is always accompanied by an unleashing of certain abilities or powers, and more and more
    unleashings as time goes on. So, I deduce that you have probably activated your Higher Self already, since you have
    the ability you mentioned, which you can even use as a
    grounding method when I'd claim it's not intrinsically a grounding method but big points to you that you have the ability
    to make that into a grounding ability!

    The Taoists in the story you've quoted were also clearly demonstrating a special ability which they no doubt could
    only have if they had activated their own Higher Selves.
    Last edited by TraineeHuman; 15th October 2021 at 05:50.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Thanks TH I think maybe, and seemingly incorrectly, I'm interchanging higher self and inner self... I say that because I don't know, or rather wasn't aware of a distinction in the labels themselves but can see a difference now in your describing of the two. Maybe you, caught on a bit I might be confusing them and offered some insight in your post which is good! And if so I Appreciate that.

    In light of that I'm still not sure which to apply in regards to the grounding when visiting past frequented places I mentioned earlier. I think maybe not quite higher self but who knows?.. at least not me right now..haha. I'll look up some of what Barry Long has to say (first I'm hearing this name) and see if I can pick up some more puzzle pieces find a place for them. It certainly sounds like topic of discussion I'd be keen to join in with on this thread should you choose to touch on that another time.
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. -Lao Tzu

    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Barry isn't alive any more, but the Barry Long Foundation still exists, and may still have an online bulletin and access to some of Barry's books. Eckhart Tolle was a student of his, as was I.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Ah ok, thanks. Echart Tolle I have read a bit way back. Looking forward to learning more.
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. -Lao Tzu

    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Don't worry about labels. The Kingdom of Heaven is within, so just simply go within, into whatever lies deeper in you. Let your intuition and your aware looking and unseen guardians guide you, and simply go with the flow. (Pardon the cliche.)

    Later on you can put labels on if you like, but the experience always comes first.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    You can read some of Barry Long's writings (or Tolle's version of them), but in the end it's mostly based on things
    that Krishnamurti said, with a touch of influence from Gurdjieff's teachings and a tiny bit from Ramana Maharishi.

    Here in Australia, where Barry grew up, from early in the twentieth century the Theosophical Society, and also
    some groups of private individuals, for many years would (and still do) play tapes or videos of Krishnamurti's talks.
    Some consider they know for certain he was undeniably a reincarnation of the Gautama Buddha and also of another
    famous ancient Buddha from earlier times than that (I forget the name). (As I have a postgraduate degree in philosophy,
    I can confirm that his metaphysical position on dozens of different questions was very precisely the same as that of the
    Gautama Buddha had been, even though Krishnamurti never read or studied Buddhism at all. Various wannabes in more recent times
    have claimed they were such a reincarnation also, but I believe they fall far short of passing this test.) For much of the twentieth
    century, almost no-one really understood what Krishnamurti was saying, but Barry Long was one of the rare few who totally did.
    It's all about freedom from unhappiness, ultimately, and about unleashing ready access to bliss, or at the very least
    OKness, at all times. The trouble was (and is) that Krishnamurti would talk at a high level of awareness that practically
    all of his audience couldn't sustain, or even grasp for very long, and so they would unwittingly keep knocking themselves
    (their awareness) partially unconscious while trying to listen. Even if their body didn't slump or go asleep, certainly their
    focus would go in and out of haziness and so there would be only partial concentration. Not that they would necessarily
    be conscious at all that that was going on.

    Barry was one of a small number of individuals who didn't unwittingly make his awareness go semi-conscious. Maybe
    Osho was another example, because as far as I know, most of his teachings were ultimately based on Krishnamurti's
    teaching too, though sometimes also over-influenced by Freud (some of whose teachings, it is well-known, have in the 70s and 80s
    been proved over and over again to be inferior (in comparison to other approaches) when applied to psychotherapy or counselling).
    Last edited by TraineeHuman; 18th October 2021 at 08:39.
    Above all, always refuse to cut your life in two: nonduality/duality, matter/Spirit, etc
    A mind which is not crippled by memory has real freedom. ~ J. Krishnamurti
    (True, deep) stillness is the way.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    It is a very curious aspect regarding awareness, for most I'm guessing, how it mimics a wave pattern sometimes. One moment it's high then we're down. With the few exceptions you mentioned.

    I'm not sure if it is the same 'energy' but it's reminding me of some interviews I saw with Gary Zukav on the t.v. in the past. His vibe prompted me to read a few of his earlier books in which I found the same pattern in the words. Most interesting was the title "Dancing Wu Li Masters", which was bringing together ideas of spiritual life and development (from Eastern perspective) together with the world of subatomic physics of all things... but now if you see some modern science talks & lectures about the nature of subatomic particles, well academia is almost reaching similar bridges from the other direction.
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. -Lao Tzu

    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    I would like to add something more about "balance" in what Japanese and Buddhist terms mean, if you don't mind

    There may be a misconception for some people about that concept, when comparing it with the western concept of "balance". In the Japanese version of it, something may be balanced, if it's imperfect, because it means "it's following the natural way" Which means it's not following a specific order, it's random, but natural, so it's 'balanced with nature' which is just like that. If there is order, then there are rules. Balance, in the way that every fits exactly one purpose or exists at some place and for some reason, it's 'order', where there is order there is no room for change, only room for following guidelines and conforming to the 'order' that keeps the balance in place

    I don't even know still if i truly make sense, it's hard to explain for me, these concepts, i lack the language skills to be very clear about it, but i think it kinds of gives a basic explanation of it

    Also see this for example, this is a Japanese room


    See how some things are 'off', like TV is not centered, other things in the room are also not centered around the room, it's 'balanced' in a 'nature' way, like a rock on the river, or a plant growing out some random place there in the field

    And this one, this is not an "empty room" no. This room is filled with "nothing"


    This is related to the "higher self" very much, because of this: What is your soul filled with? Where are your emotions, are they "centered"? Is your soul full, or empty? Full of what? Emotions? Is your higher self, aware of you, as much as you are aware of it? How do you 'feel' about it, and how does it feel about you? There is no balance there, unless you accept that being 'balanced' means there is randomness and things are just what they are. See what i mean?

    If you specifically try to "understand" Wabi sabi, instead of just "live it" then you 'know about the concept' but you are 'not' part of it, or it has changed you in any way for the better or worse, you just 'know about it', just like you know how to open a bottle, or how to turn on the lights on a room or open the door

    Wabi sabi and Satori are a bit hard to merge with other concepts born in the west, you have to drop some of your previous understandings to get the 'real' meaning of those concepts. I wish i could be better at explaining these things
    Last edited by Mashika; 16th October 2021 at 03:06.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    I agree, Mashika. Words are merely a kind of matrix. They're a kind of net, that many things slip right through without getting caught in it. We live in a fluid universe. We're not made of stone. And some words are fictional, if you take them literally. For instance, there is no such thing as "nothing".

    We only ever learn the meaning of words through an act of pointing that initially comes with the word. But the first time we hear a new word when we're young children, we don't know if the new word might mean, say, the leg, or the foot, or the shin, or the step, or the underlying support, or whatever. And even though eventually we learn that what was meant by a particular sound was, say, the foot, the ambiguity is still there. Because the rest of life, beyond language, remains a world of pointing, where we keep having to ask ourselves: "What, exactly, is this that life or someone is pointing us to right now?" We don't really know the meaning, except that we need to watch for the next time something or someone seems to be pointing in the same way. Then, maybe, we start to work out what the meaning was supposed to be. And that's just whatever they wanted the pointing to refer to at those times. (I.e., the meaning of the word or that pointing is just the use of it, and vice versa.)

    Actually, I would claim that all this is one more example of how formlessness subtly interpenetrates everything.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
    I agree, Mashika. Words are merely a kind of matrix. They're a kind of net, that many things slip right through without getting caught in it. We live in a fluid universe. We're not made of stone. And some words are fictional, if you take them literally. For instance, there is no such thing as "nothing".

    We only ever learn the meaning of words through an act of pointing that initially comes with the word. But the first time we hear a new word when we're young children, we don't know if the new word might mean, say, the leg, or the foot, or the shin, or the step, or the underlying support, or whatever. And even though eventually we learn that what was meant by a particular sound was, say, the foot, the ambiguity is still there. Because the rest of life, beyond language, remains a world of pointing, where we keep having to ask ourselves: "What, exactly, is this that life or someone is pointing us to right now?" We don't really know the meaning, except that we need to watch for the next time something or someone seems to be pointing in the same way. Then, maybe, we start to work out what the meaning was supposed to be. And that's just whatever they wanted the pointing to refer to at those times. (I.e., the meaning of the word or that pointing is just the use of it, and vice versa.)

    Actually, I would claim that all this is one more example of how formlessness subtly interpenetrates everything.
    I remember a lesson, that said this

    If a square was called a circle by everyone around you, since you were born, then you will also call it a circle, and when you were to watch the round circle, instead of a square, and people would tell you about your mistake, you will think they are crazy or uneducated... 'This round thing is a square, of course! and that thing with 4 edges is a circle!' would go through your mind, in some way. And who is right and who is wrong?

    A circle is only a circle if you named it that. No one is crazy, or uneducated in that conversation. It's all just one of many aspects of "Mu"

    ETA:

    For small kids, there is a small but funny test that goes like this

    "Here there are lots of pieces of wood, all have a form, match them with the rest so they are uniform"

    And the real expectation is that you will figure out they can't be matched, because the pieces are incompatible, their are build so like that

    So the answer is, to randomly put them up together and then say "this is how they are right now" or something similar must be said. And then they teacher knows if you are "in" or not Teacher may ask: "and how were they before, what changed? Then, if you were me, you would say "the same but i am watching them a different way now"

    I probably should not have shared this, it's supposed to be 'not sharable' but oh well

    I'm not sure if it's clear for new readers here if what i'm saying truly relates to the topic, but it does, honestly! It just requires a bit of 'work' to get around the lack of skills i have in expressing myself. It's worthy, trust me please

    TraineeHuman, Ankle Biter, I think you'll know
    Last edited by Mashika; 16th October 2021 at 05:13.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Mashika, I believe you misinterpreted what I meant by my comment that during meditation I prefer to "dwell in
    emptiness" much of the time, so let me expand a little on that. It's a dynamic state, and it's not totally passive
    either. During meditation I do whenever possible bring in as many of the qualities and features of the formless
    worlds and even the divine worlds as possible. Two of my recent posts here have even been about the formless
    worlds. As that name obviously even suggests, they are profoundly "empty" in certain senses. But they are "empty"
    because, paradoxically, they are so brimmingly full, of intensely pleasurable and profound things, and let's not
    ignore all the gigantic playful fun that's there either. So, let me say a little more about the fullness.

    Also, people sometimes refer to the divine worlds as "Source". Well, that's because the divine and then the
    formless worlds really are the ultimate source or beginning, of something that plays in those profound levels of
    reality and only then can it even exist and become a feeling or an idea or whatever. Source is in some ways much
    more "hands on" than some would imagine it to be, and it does love to have fun, and to break all existing
    conventions and expectations. And it's never boring, or "stuck" even though from another point of view it's
    profoundly "empty". More "empty" than anything/anywhere else. People need to greatly broaden how "wide" they
    think the reach of Source to be. True "spirituality" encompasses much more "common" and even "vulgar" territory
    than many people seem to imagine. Source, and indeed formlessness and the infinite, is continually working to
    "descend" or shine into the lowest reaches of existence, and to continually pierce all veils more and more. It's a
    continual process of filling us all with ever a little more and more of the divine. As I tried to explain a little
    early in this thread, Spirit is deeply involved with matter (and time). It's right here, right now, although we let
    the veil distort our perception of it. To me, "emptiness" is often to do with pulling away that veil, and hence
    it's to do with bringing as much of bliss as we can into the tough situations of ordinary life.
    Last edited by TraineeHuman; 19th October 2021 at 21:46.
    Above all, always refuse to cut your life in two: nonduality/duality, matter/Spirit, etc
    A mind which is not crippled by memory has real freedom. ~ J. Krishnamurti
    (True, deep) stillness is the way.

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Quote Posted by TraineeHuman (here)
    Mashika, I believe you misinterpreted what I meant by my comment that during meditation I prefer to "dwell in
    emptiness" much of the time, so let me expand a little on that. It's a dynamic state, and it's not totally passive
    either. During meditation I do whenever possible bring in as many of the qualities and features of the formless
    worlds and even the divine worlds as possible. Two of my recent posts here have even been about the formless
    worlds. As that name obviously even suggests, they are profoundly "empty" in certain senses. But they are "empty"
    because, paradoxically, they are so brimmingly full, of intensely pleasurable and profound things, and let's not
    ignore all the gigantic playful fun that's there either. So, let me say a little more about the fullness.

    Also, people sometimes refer to the divine worlds as "Source". Well, that's because the divine and then the
    formless worlds really are the ultimate source or beginning, of something that plays in those profound levels of
    reality and only then can it even exist and become a feeling or an idea or whatever. Source is in some ways much
    more "hands on" than some would imagine it to be, and it does love to have fun, and to break all existing
    conventions and expectations. And it's never boring, or "stuck" even though from another point of view it's
    profoundly "empty". More "empty" than anything/anywhere else. People need to greatly broaden how "wide" they
    think the reach of Source to be. True "spirituality" encompasses much more "common" and even "vulgar" territory
    than many people seem to imagine. Source, and indeed formlessness and the infinite, is continually working to
    "descend" or shine into the lowest reaches of existence, and to continually pierce all veils more and more. It's a
    continual process of filling us all with ever a little more and more of the divine. As I tried to explain a little
    early in this thread, Spirit is deeply involved with matter (and time). It's right here, right now, although we let
    the veil distort our perception of it. To me, "emptiness" is often to do with pulling away that veil, and hence
    it's to do with bringing as much of bliss as we can into the tough situations of ordinary life.
    Where did you learn meditation technics? Or about it at all? Maybe we are talking about same things but from different aspects of it?

    What was that made you think i misunderstood, specifically?

    What's the difference between "empty" and "blank" from your point of view?

    ETA: I wish you had addresses my previous stuff in more detail, but you kind of just skipped over it :/
    Last edited by Mashika; 24th October 2021 at 11:35.
    Tired

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    Default Re: The Higher Self and transcendent experience, including OBEs

    Hi Mashika,
    I do appreciate that some of the things you've said can, among other things, be relevant to understanding formlessness better. For instance, one thing I think, in my mind, you were doing was the equivalent of saying that pointing is an activity that we can do, while n this world, that can link us to something formless. Similarly, although words always have a form, their meaning, or part of their meaning, can be something formless.

    However, in this thread I've tried to avoid getting too philosophical as far as I could manage. That's because my understanding is that authentic spirituality is primarily a matter of experience, and not theory. And of what's (seemingly) 100% certain experience at that -- rather like the way we're certain of the truth of whatever we directly see or hear, or feel through touch, and so on, for all the physical senses.

    On the other hand, in a discussion Forum the emphasis most of the time is on the use of critical analysis or conceptual analysis, and of offering plausible hypotheses, in order to hopefully get closer to uncovering the underlying real truth. Believe it or not, in this thread I haven't been centrally interested in that. However, because I have degrees in philosophy and psychology and social work (which includes sociology), some people do (and in the past, often did) misinterpret what I was trying to say as an expression of my opinion (instead of as my experience), couched in what seems like maybe very theory-laden language. But normally it's simply my description of my direct experience, or of what I deduce based on others'.

    I suspect this intrinsic and necessary difference in emphasis is why the Spirituality heading is placed right near the bottom of the index of Forum topics.

    So, I actually have a house rule with myself to try to avoid expressing my opinion as distinct from my direct experience and the latter's implications. And although my descriptions will inevitably be coloured somewhat by my opinions, I try to avoid centrally focusing on them. But that also applies to others' opinions or conclusions. For me, what's important is the experience that unleashed the individual's wonderful insight.

    Getting the experience, though, often takes much work and dedication and a long time and an extremely enthusiastic attitude. There are of course no shortcuts to any of those. Looking back, I didn't realize so few would be able to go out of body easily in a controlled way, or even just be ready to write down many of their dreams over a long period. (I never promised them a rose garden -- well, not till after years of constant, seriously dedicated hard work. And even then, it's a matter of bring your own rose garden -- to all the horrible situations, but they'll no longer get you down.
    Last edited by TraineeHuman; 25th October 2021 at 05:15.

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