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Thread: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

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    Avalon Member norman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Keeping the conversation going, and keeping it out of the 'back-slapping' group congratulatory mode is a constant paradox.

    We often wonder how it can possibly be, that the world of academia can possibly be involved in the cover-up, of all the factors that are about our history and who we are.

    I know I always wonder how the hell do universities seem to avoid the truth and produce graduates who are some of the smartest people around, but don't have a clue what's going on...... ? I mean... REALLY ! ?

    When we, on a truther forum, start to get "reasonably logical" we are probably flirting with whatever it is that makes universities turn out academic idiots.

    The 'paradox' is only visible to the "one eye'd person, in a blind world.
    ..................................................my first language is TYPO..............................................

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    This is NOT intended for Jiminii. It's for any game players flooding the LRH threads.

    UPDATE: I may have place this on the wrong LRH thread.

    Eight Traits of the Disinformationalist
    by H. Michael Sweeney <HMS@proparanoid.com> 
copyright (c) 1997, 2000 All rights reserved 

(Revised April 2000 - formerly SEVEN Traits) 
 

    

1) Avoidance. They never actually discuss issues head-on or provide constructive input, generally avoiding citation of references or credentials. Rather, they merely imply this, that, and the other. Virtually everything about  their presentation implies their authority and  expert knowledge in the matter without any further justification for credibility. 



    2) Selectivity. They tend to pick and choose opponents carefully, either applying the hit-and-run approach against mere commentators supportive of opponents, or focusing heavier attacks on key opponents who are known to directly address issues. Should a commentatorbecome argumentative with any success, the focus will shift to include the commentator as well.

    

3) Coincidental. They tend to surface suddenly and somewhat coincidentally with a new controversial topic with no clear prior record of participation in general discussions in the particular public arena involved. They likewise tend to vanish once the topic is no longer of general concern. They were likely directed or elected to be there for a reason, and vanish with the reason.

    

4) Teamwork. They tend to operate in self-congratulatory and complementary packs or teams. Of course, this can happen naturally in any public forum, but there will likely be an ongoing pattern of frequent exchanges of this sort where professionals are involved. Sometimes one of the players will infiltrate the opponent camp to become a source for straw man or other tactics designed to dilute opponent presentation strength. 



    5) Anti-conspiratorial. They almost always have disdain for 'conspiracy theorists' and, usually, for those who in any way believe JFK was not killed by LHO. Ask yourself why, if they hold such disdain for conspiracy theorists, do they focus on defending a single topic discussed in a NG focusing on conspiracies? One might think they would either be trying to make fools of everyone on every topic, or simply ignore the group they hold in such disdain.Or, one might more rightly conclude they have  an ulterior motive for their actions in going out of their way to focus as they do. 



    6) Artificial Emotions. An odd kind of 'artificial' emotionalism and an unusually thick skin -- an ability to persevere and persist even in the face of overwhelming criticism and unacceptance. This likely stems from intelligence community training that, no matter how condemning the evidence, deny everything, and never become emotionally involved or reactive. The net result for a disinfo artist is that emotions can seem artificial. Most people, if responding in anger, for instance, will express their animosity throughout their rebuttal. But disinfo types usually have trouble maintaining the 'image' and are hot and cold with respect to pretended emotions and their usually more calm or unemotional communications style. It's just a job, and they often seem unable to 'act their role in character' as well in a communications medium as they might be able in a real face-to-face  conversation/confrontation. You might have outright rage and indignation one moment, ho-hum the next, and more anger later -- an emotional yo-yo. With respect to being thick-skinned, no amount of criticism will deter them from doing their job, and they will generally continue their old disinfo patterns without any adjustments to criticisms of how obvious it is that they play that game -- where a more rational individual who truly cares what others think might seek to improve their communications style, substance, and so forth, or simply give up. 



    7) Inconsistent. There is also a tendency to make mistakes which betray their true self/motives. This may stem from not really knowing their topic, or it may be somewhat 'freudian', so to speak, in that perhaps they  really root for the side of truth deep within.

    I have noted that often, they will simply cite contradictory information which neutralizes  itself and the author. For instance, one such  player claimed to be a Navy pilot, but blamed his poor communicating skills (spelling, grammar, incoherent style) on having only a grade-school education. I'm not aware of too many Navy pilots who don't have a college degree. Another claimed no knowledge of a particular topic/situation but later claimed first-hand knowledge of it.


    8) BONUS TRAIT: Time Constant. Recently discovered, with respect to News Groups, is the response time factor. There are three ways this can be seen to work, especially when the government or other empowered player is involved in a cover up operation:
    [continued here]

    Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth:   

    The Rules of Disinformation  (Includes The 8 Traits of A Disinformationalist)  

    by H. Michael Sweeney
 copyright (c) 1997, 2000 All rights reserved
 (Revised April 2000)

    

Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation 

Note: The first rule and last five (or six, depending on situation) rules are generally not directly within the ability of the traditional disinfo artist to apply. These rules are generally used more directly by those at the leadership, key players, or planning level of the criminal conspiracy or conspiracy to cover up. 



    [continued here]
    Last edited by RunningDeer; 20th May 2013 at 21:37.

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    "Use a straw man"

    That's a good point.

    I've come to realise that most people do that within their arguments, even when they are staying on track with the creditable etiquette.

    If you set up a listener project and analize a whole slew of 'respectable' discussion, you will find that almost every contributor uses "straw man" reasoning at one stage or another and one level or another.

    I'll even go so far as to say that the few who DON't use it, are the few who get rapidly sidelined and evicted from the conversation. ( unless you want to include the eventual rapturous eviction of the King straw man arguer )
    ..................................................my first language is TYPO..............................................

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

    So, I'll narrow it down to just one question, followed by a little bit of commentary: Just what constitutes a "negative" question in this case?
    Hi, Fred:

    Here are examples of negative questions -- taken from [imaginary] different contexts. (But you'll know from your own extensive forum experience that these examples, while not copied quotes, are pretty real. We see them on Avalon periodically.)

    On a David Icke thread:

    --- Bill, that was yet another very weird handshake you gave David after the interview. Come on, we know the truth. Why don't you admit you're both freemasons?

    On a Jordan Maxwell thread:

    --- Isn't Jordan Maxwell just plagiarizing all of P. Manly Hall's material? Do you really think that Jordan, who really doesn't seem all that bright, has come across and researched all that stuff on his own? Bill, I have a question for you: Why do you support Jordan so much?

    On an Alex Jones thread:

    --- Hasn't it been established a long time ago that Alex Jones is paid by the CIA? He's never denied it. Don't you realize that he never, ever, mentions Israel? The guy's as fake as a three-dollar bill.

    On a Project Camelot thread:

    --- James Casbolt (Michael Prince) states clearly that Camelot is a CIA-funded operation. Bill, what have you got to say about this? We know that you've been gallivanting around the world staying in expensive hotels and that could not possibly come from donations. So, where does the money come from?

    Etc, etc, etc.

    Does this help?
    Not in this case Bill, but that's o.k. Although I whole heartedly agree with your assessment of the above questions (don't they get old?), it doesn't apply *IMO* to many of the basic and legitimate questions Jim has either been unable, or unwilling to address. On his own that is...But hey, all is well brother.



    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    I totally understand that living in Clearwater, you've had your fill of scientology. But I am highly critical of the 'Church', and am even endangering myself (theoretically) by stating so time and again.

    My question for you: why is it so difficult to tell the difference between what you have been exposed to (a lot of unsavory and off-putting stuff, which I would surely totally agree with you about were I to know the details), and what I and others are trying to explain and clarify here?
    Hmmm, me thinks we may have a have a failure to communicate on that one. Perhaps I wasn't clear when I said this:

    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    And finally, here's the bugger of it all. I ordinarily wouldn't mind one bit having an in depth and intelligent conversation about Scientology, especially with people who have experience with it. Having lived right next to FLAG central in Clearwater for most of my life, and having learned much about it in the process, I think it would be most interesting.
    I've known and been friends with Scientologists who were very nice people (free zone and regular), and I've met some who really gave me the genuine creeps, especially inside the Ft. Harrison Hotel. (LOL)

    So yes, I can very much so tell the difference. Especially now, with nearly 2 1/2 years of hard core Avalon experience.


    P.S. Oh, sorry. Many probably don't know much about Clearwater at all, much less about The Ft. Harrison Hotel.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Harrison_Hotel
    Last edited by Fred Steeves; 20th May 2013 at 21:34.

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    United States Avalon Member RunningDeer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    And finally, here's the bugger of it all. I ordinarily wouldn't mind one bit having an in depth and intelligent conversation about Scientology, especially with people who have experience with it. Having lived right next to FLAG central in Clearwater for most of my life, and having learned much about it in the process, I think it would be most interesting.

    I've known and been friends with Scientologists who were very nice people (free zone and regular), and I've met some who really gave me the genuine creeps, especially inside the Ft. Harrison Hotel. (LOL)
    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    "... And finally, here's the bugger of it all. I ordinarily wouldn't mind one bit having an in depth and intelligent conversation about Scientology, especially with people who have experience with it. Having lived right next to FLAG central in Clearwater for most of my life, and having learned much about it in the process, I think it would be most interesting.

    BUT, having now had that "frosty cold beer" shoved down my throat, not to mention the lurkers and new members as well, I'm more in "you got some splainin to do" mode. And you know what? That's most unfortunate, but it is what it is... "
    Hello Fred,

    As I see it, these paragraphs are confusing when you leave the paragraph that follows off from when you originally asked Bill your question(s). When I remove the extraneous phrases it reads:

    “And finally, here's the bugger of it all. I ordinarily wouldn't mind one bit having an in depth and intelligent conversation about Scientology, I think it would be most interesting.

    BUT, having now had that "frosty cold beer" shoved down my throat, I'm more in "you got some splainin to do" mode.”



    From what I gathered jiminii is sharing his personal experiences. He did not deem himself, to use your words, “Scientology super hero”.

    From what I see jiminii exhibits a lot of patience in answering questions from multiple threads all while walking through a land mind of:
    • innuendo
    • name calling
    • insults on his communication style
    I don’t blame him for having this feeling: "I'm tired of your negative questioning".

    This still is confusing: "frosty cold beer" shoved down my throat, I'm more in "you got some splainin to do mode". Do you mean Bill or jiminii shoving information about Scientology down your throat &/or not explaining about Scientology?

    If it’s jiminii you are speaking of then I’d say again, “jiminii is sharing his personal experiences. He did not deem himself to use your words, “Scientology super hero”.

    Cheers,
    Paula

    PS If jiminii is reading this. Hello and welcome and thank you for your time, energy and patience.


    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)

    So, I'll narrow it down to just one question, followed by a little bit of commentary: Just what constitutes a "negative" question in this case?
    Hi, Fred:

    Here are examples of negative questions -- taken from [imaginary] different contexts. (But you'll know from your own extensive forum experience that these examples, while not copied quotes, are pretty real. We see them on Avalon periodically.)

    On a David Icke thread:

    --- Bill, that was yet another very weird handshake you gave David after the interview. Come on, we know the truth. Why don't you admit you're both freemasons?

    On a Jordan Maxwell thread:

    --- Isn't Jordan Maxwell just plagiarizing all of P. Manly Hall's material? Do you really think that Jordan, who really doesn't seem all that bright, has come across and researched all that stuff on his own? Bill, I have a question for you: Why do you support Jordan so much?

    On an Alex Jones thread:

    --- Hasn't it been established a long time ago that Alex Jones is paid by the CIA? He's never denied it. Don't you realize that he never, ever, mentions Israel? The guy's as fake as a three-dollar bill.

    On a Project Camelot thread:

    --- James Casbolt (Michael Prince) states clearly that Camelot is a CIA-funded operation. Bill, what have you got to say about this? We know that you've been gallivanting around the world staying in expensive hotels and that could not possibly come from donations. So, where does the money come from?

    Etc, etc, etc.

    Does this help?
    Not in this case Bill, but that's o.k. Although I whole heartedly agree with your assessment of the above questions (don't they get old?), it doesn't apply *IMO* to many of the basic and legitimate questions Jim has either been unable, or unwilling to address. On his own that is...But hey, all is well brother.



    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    I totally understand that living in Clearwater, you've had your fill of scientology. But I am highly critical of the 'Church', and am even endangering myself (theoretically) by stating so time and again.

    My question for you: why is it so difficult to tell the difference between what you have been exposed to (a lot of unsavory and off-putting stuff, which I would surely totally agree with you about were I to know the details), and what I and others are trying to explain and clarify here?
    Hmmm, me thinks we may have a have a failure to communicate on that one. Perhaps I wasn't clear when I said this:

    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    And finally, here's the bugger of it all. I ordinarily wouldn't mind one bit having an in depth and intelligent conversation about Scientology, especially with people who have experience with it. Having lived right next to FLAG central in Clearwater for most of my life, and having learned much about it in the process, I think it would be most interesting.
    I've known and been friends with Scientologists who were very nice people (free zone and regular), and I've met some who really gave me the genuine creeps, especially inside the Ft. Harrison Hotel. (LOL)

    So yes, I can very much so tell the difference. Especially now, with nearly 2 1/2 years of hard core Avalon experience.


    P.S. Oh, sorry. Many probably don't know much about Clearwater at all, much less about The Ft. Harrison Hotel.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Harrison_Hotel
    Last edited by RunningDeer; 21st May 2013 at 02:21.

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    I was in for 8 years....."Clear" and trained as a "Class IV" auditor to anyone who knows the nomenclature. Scientologists, are in awe when they find out my "status" so to speak and cannot understand why I left 20 years ago. It's an ego boost. The more trained ones who contact me firmly believe that I "blew" (left) because I had misunderstoods and all I need to do is get them cleared up and I'd be back in the fold.

    Scientology was a stepping stone to where I am at today. I read Dianetics over 6-7 times, cannot remember. I used it with great results. My communication skills, my running a business skills and most important knowing how to ask the right question are the 3 things that I am grateful for that came from LRH.

    I used my communication skills recently when they found my phone number and address (I believe they paid to find this on line, but always with skill avoided answering my query about this). They had (in LA) handwritten letters from my files of many years ago that I wrote when I was on staff in Hawaii. I was amazed. However the great thing is I just used what I call "spiritual tai chi" to handle their very persistent questions and didn't get upset with them.

    Scientology and Dianetics.....these are A way.....one of many. Some of it is good and some of it is....part of a journey into the dark.

    I think most important is to recognize that all your questions and answers and knowing are right inside of you. And I hope everyone is having fun with all of this...I'm sure LRH is looking on and laughing his butt off.

    lightwalker

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Bill a question if i may. ( un loaded )

    My auditing experience is limited compared to yours.


    When an auditor asks you to think of things does this usuallly as a by product bring up memories and visions of past events ?

    If so , where do these visual memories manifest ? ie what part of the brian ,in your opinion , facilitates the recognition of said events ?

    AND , Is the e meter trying to read the electromagnetic pulses attributed to extra mind mental energy created by exersizing it ?

    Thank you

    Naniu

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Quote Posted by Christine (here)
    Quote Posted by RMorgan (here)
    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    Is it a question that just shouldn't be asked? Is it a challenge to a claim or info given? Is it pointing out inconsistencies, discrepancies, or red flags, and asking how come? Is it an unconscious engram being restimulated, that simply needs to be audited? Is it wondering why the sudden avalanche of Scientology tech here, starting with the introduction of a previously unknown Scientology super hero? Is it wondering why we suddenly have to have a new leader figure to guide us young'uns out of the briar patch?
    Hey Fred,

    You know what really perplexes me?

    Well, it´s the undeniable fact that such subject gained that much traction here based on huge, unverifiable and unfounded claims made by someone who believes to be the second coming of Jesus or something close to it.

    This is really impressive; If there was an yearly gullibility award, PA would be a serious candidate to win it.

    You know, after all those years keeping myself informed about what goes on in the Alternative Media, my conclusion is that people simply like to hear stories; the crazier the better. The more fantastical, nonsensical and unfounded a story is, the more traction and repercussion it gets in websites such as this one.

    Next step is to set up a few interviews with Jim and make him the next alternative media celebrity of the month. He surely fits all requirements.

    Come on folks...Are you serious? Perhaps this is just an experiment and you forgot to warn me about it?

    I´m sorry if I may sound disrespectful, but these things need to be said.

    Raf.
    Hey guys - chill please.

    No one is announcing the second coming of anyone, no new leader, no super hero, no one needing or asking to get pulled out of the briar patch. Take what you will and leave the rest. I haven't heard one person say that jiminii is their lord and savior.. all he has done is bring some attention on a subject which maybe the time has come to explore.

    It has raised some questions in myself which I find helpful to explore. Controversy quite often has that effect.

    Love you both,
    Christine
    Jiminii said he is the viewpoint of Maitreya - how does one take that?

    Also, thrown in with saying he is the viewpoint of LRH - though not channelling, as has been decided...so of whom is this whatever numbered coming?

    I'm not saying his experiences aren't real. But I am not ignoring what he says.

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Quote Posted by jiminii (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Amzer Zo (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by TalkingFish (here)

    I remember a past post, when you mentioned finding pre-1970 Dianetics books to audit, but they aren't easy to come by. Would you mind sharing your PDF on Book One?
    Here, with pleasure.

    http://projectavalon.net/DMSMH.PDF


    Hi Bill,

    The link doesn't download anything but a 1Kb file and the PDF reader in your post gives the same result...

    I hope you'll be able to fix it?

    Thanks!
    Apologies -- having trouble with the server upload. Will fix soonest, then re-post as soon as it works.

    EDIT --> Fixed.
    I ;am thinking we can make a group and call it research ..then we can decide what we want to put on the sight ...
    because I need to clear some things about this nibiru and more ... I can almost hear the conversations up there .. but I don't know who it is ,,, it is like they are making the decisions but with who down here I don't have any good cogs

    what you think?

    jim
    "" I can almost hear the conversations up there .. but I don't know who it is ,,, it is like they are making the decisions but with who down here I don't have any good cogs"

    Who and what are you talking about? Thanks.

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Quote Posted by Nanoo Nanoo (here)
    Bill a question if i may. ( un loaded )

    My auditing experience is limited compared to yours.


    When an auditor asks you to think of things does this usuallly as a by product bring up memories and visions of past events ?

    If so , where do these visual memories manifest ? ie what part of the brian ,in your opinion , facilitates the recognition of said events ?

    AND , Is the e meter trying to read the electromagnetic pulses attributed to extra mind mental energy created by exersizing it ?

    Thank you

    Naniu
    All I can say is that if I ask you to "think of an elephant" (right now) -- or "recall what you had for breakfast" -- the way you experienced your experience would probably be similar to mine.

    I just think of an elephant (probably a memory of one I saw in Africa), or remember my coffee and granola.

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Quote Posted by CdnSirian (here)

    Hey guys - chill please.

    No one is announcing the second coming of anyone, no new leader, no super hero, no one needing or asking to get pulled out of the briar patch. Take what you will and leave the rest. I haven't heard one person say that jiminii is their lord and savior.. all he has done is bring some attention on a subject which maybe the time has come to explore.

    It has raised some questions in myself which I find helpful to explore. Controversy quite often has that effect.

    Love you both,
    Christine
    Quote Jiminii said he is the viewpoint of Maitreya - how does one take that?
    I cant' answer that for anyone but myself, and I would say with a grain of salt. If I were able to be face to face with Jim and get to know him much better I maybe could form an opinion. A far as I go is to understand that we can take on the view point of another, I have found myself in such a situation where momentarily I became the other. Other than that I am not sure.

    Quote Also, thrown in with saying he is the viewpoint of LRH - though not channelling, as has been decided...so of whom is this whatever numbered coming?
    This I doubt as to being accurate, the reason being is that I do know other auditors and ex church people who knew LRH and/ or say they communicate with him. Everyone appears to have a different experience.

    Quote I'm not saying his experiences aren't real. But I am not ignoring what he says.
    I would like to think that I am not ignoring what he says either, just some of what he says impacts me in one way and some of what he says impacts others differently.

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    -------

    To Padmé: read this, right now -- please.

    https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post676596

    And also take a look at my reply to Fred above about negative posts. You've been on the forum for over two years, over half of your posts have been in the last week, and almost all of those have been disruptive to the energy.

    You are TRYING to find fault. It looks immature. Be aware of how you're coming over to everyone else.

    The effect is that of heckling a conference speaker. That does not technically break the law -- but don't be surprised if, after a while, the conference organizers ask you to leave the auditorium.
    Sorry, not trying to find fault and I promise not to enter this discussion anymore... I would however like to point out that I've only been a member since 23rd August 2012... not quite the over two years that you state... anyway... carry on... I wont disrupt for thread any longer.

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Quote Posted by CdnSirian (here)
    Jiminii said he is the viewpoint of Maitreya - how does one take that?
    I have no idea what to do with that concept. I'm reading what Jim writes (which is quite a lot) and trying to understand. He's clearly trying to tell us something which he considers very important. I have not asked Jim this, but I have the strong idea that he was 'told' or 'knew' that he had to come here. That gets my interest. (Inelia was similar, some of you may recall.)

    That -- the relaying of an important message for consideration -- is not the first time this has happened on this forum. We had read, and been most interested by, Bright Garlick, Simon Parkes, Clif High, and many, many others. I personally don't know whether to take it literally or exactly, or not. But I think it belongs here. The intelligent interest from [most of] the members justifies that.

    Quote Also, thrown in with saying he is the viewpoint of LRH - though not channelling, as has been decided...so of whom is this whatever numbered coming?
    I don't think this is channeling (in the normally accepted sense of the word, like Messages from Matthew or anything from Mike Quinsey). I think this is something else. For instance, we're not getting from Jim a page of text which is a message we're urged to read and take seriously as some definitive pronouncement about which we have no say. At least, that's not how I am regarding it.

    BECAUSE Jim is sharing so much of himself, openly, vulnerably and in trust, including a lot of his life story and many things that he freely admits he does not understand, I find myself pretty patient with all this, and also find it very interesting. I admire Jim's courage and integrity, actually.

    A personal statement, for clarity: I do not endorse his claims. Neither am I dismissing them. In fact, I still have not read everything Jim has written.

    One of the criteria we use when considering membership applications is: "Would we want to sit down and have a cup of coffee with this interesting person?"

    In Jim's case, we all felt we would, indeed. That is still the case.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 21st May 2013 at 00:59.

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Quote Posted by Fred Steeves (here)
    many of the basic and legitimate questions Jim has either been unable, or unwilling to address.
    I think that Jim has been overwhelmed with questions. It's hard to field them all over several threads and several dozen pages when one also has to eat and sleep and presumably do many other things during each day.

    And it's not a case of those questions being 'negative'. No-one said that! He may have missed a bunch. I'm sure some of them are good ones.

    But shouting "Jim never answered my question!!" isn't very helpful -- OR positive. How is Jim meant to know what he's overlooked?

    Q and A threads (like this one) are problematic, and unwittingly often invite trouble -- because if a post or a question is missed quite by accident, one is always accused of cherry-picking the questions or evading an issue. In most cases, that is never so.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 21st May 2013 at 13:33.

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    The bottom of my post is a smaller edited copy and paste of the threads I have been reading in the LRH (L. Ron Hubbard) thread. To keep it quick and to the point I copied and pasted the more unbelievable ideas that have caused me to not be able to fully embrace the message. UNFORTUNATELY, the message is so far out from my paradigm that I can't understand the message "JIM" is sharing.

    It appears others more familiar and learned in this subject find the "Jim" message as not too far out and are able to tolerate the sometimes jumbled message. Also, the numerous use of acronyms and insider slang has made it difficult to understand for begginers in the subject. I think it is unfortunate many on Avalon seem to not be able to see that the tools in Scientology can be beneficial, it seems as though many can not differentiate the Church/Religion/Cult with the tools. How can we not think bieng "Clear" is not a good thing for all people. From Wiki-- Clear in Dianetics and Scientology is one of two levels a practitioner can achieve on the way to personal salvation. A state of Clear is reached when a person becomes free of the influence of engrams, unwanted emotions or painful traumas not readily available to the conscious mind. Scientologists believe that human beings accumulate anxieties, psychosomatic illnesses, and aberration due to receiving engrams throughout their lives. By applying dianetics, every single person can reach Clear....Sounds good to me, I want to be clear.

    It would help me greatly if we can have links to websites that can teach the tools, suggestions of books to read, websites to visit, youtube videos to watch, etc And perhaps the most beneficial thing is to condense all this info into one post as you did so well with the "Essential reading for all Avalonians post". It would be a good way to allow interested people to have access to the benefits and in a way weed through all the noise. Thanks again to you and all the Mods and fellow Avalonian members who keep this forum moving along.



    80 trillion years ago there was a group of people call the peace bringers ... they were so powerful that everywhere they went they brought peace .. There was another group that were war mongers ... and they were a bit of trouble but the peace bringers thought that could train them and maybe they would change to the better ... but these war mongers decided to infiltrate and steal the tech and use is to try to take over the system ... and many wars happened


    We are on a prison planet ... it took them billions of years to create this ... NO ONE ESCAPES from a prison planet ... NO ONE until Siddhartha Gautama Buddha did 2500 years ago ... any religion that tells you that you have no power and only god has power and any other power is the devil will never get you off this planet
    it takes a being with a lot of power to get off this planet ... and giving all your power to a god that someone says exists isn't going to get you off the planet
    .

    these are control religions ... I went back to see Christ on the Cross .. and started running the session myself using the class 8 auditor and her meter to do it.

    I got back there ... Christ looked like he was in a very lot of pain ... I decided to go inside his body and see what was happening and a force a very big force was hitting me when I was in his body .. it was too much and I could not stay inside the body .. I got out and I saw a huge oval of gold light in front of him ... I thought he was making it .... I followed the light into the sky and it was a UFO ... and that UFO was hitting Christ with some kind of beam ... and it was flooding the crowd with pictures to create a future dark age ... I yelled ... it was a trick ... it was a trick ... it was a trick ...


    by the way ... the force fields that trapped us to this planet have been removed ... by the andromedians . ... if you die this time you can go home ... where ;ever that was .... so future?? ... i am staying here ... this place will be the new beginning for the entire universe and when it is safe for them to come down they will teach us and we will be new light of this universe ... why because we were the gods they sent here and to them we are still looked at as royalty and they are trying to free us

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    -------

    I discovered for myself the following:

    We humans are all in a 'fallen state'. Long, long ago, we all used to -- as beings -- be gods, as it were: creators, manifesters, dolphins playing together joyfully in the universal sea. As we accumulated more and more unfinished business --- basically, things that we'd not taken responsibility for and never cleaned up -- we 'solidified' until we can no longer remember who we are or the way things once were. And we've all been around for WAY longer than the 'Big Bang'.

    While I am not posting to this thread in regards to Hubbard and the rest, I must say that the above quote is a very nice and succinct summary Bill.
    I would also suggest that there has been some 'outside interference' along the way.

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Slow down. I'm reading "Dianetics" and I'm only 1/4 way through it. I read the Dane Tops 2009 Camelot interview last night, and listened to the BBC radio documentary. Don't have a broad enough perspective yet to ask questions, but I will at some point.

    I really respect Fred and I get where he is coming from. Here's a Jim excerpt:

    Quote and I also knew one more thing .... it was my decision whether we salvaged the planet or not ....I decided to salvage it ...
    His decision whether planet earth is salvageable? The 70% minions or the 30% partially cognizant that could use auditing? Jim decided to salvage it?

    I've given him a wide berth, but there are two things going on here. An intelligent discussion about clearing one's traumas and karmas through a basket of tools, exponentially increasing ones energies and opening up to ones soul's full memory and potential, and Jim exploding onto the scene and already has close to 200 posts in less than 10 days, while Avalon is all abuzz around this.

    Hmmm. Makes me wonder too.

    Bill. Why not do a skype interview with Jim where you ask the questions?
    Last edited by gripreaper; 21st May 2013 at 05:35.
    "Lay Down Your Truth and Check Your Weapons
    The Next Voice You Hear Will Be Your OWN"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhS69C1tr0w

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Oh boy, did i throw the baby out with the bathwater. having previously dismissed Scientology as a dangerous cult, I have never read this book......I am also about 25% of the way through it (slow readers eh Gripeaper?) but so far I am blown away. I am resonating and clashing with the book all over. Its such a powerful book, that if I had a hard copy I would be VERY careful where I kept it. BTW I also sensed that there is a protective prescence in the book- I was fleetingly reminded of the minders around a triad boss in some Hong Kong movie.

    So far i find:

    The description of and action of engrams corresponds exactly with the buddhist explanation of kamma, particularly karmic seeds;
    The use of the terms conscious and unconscious corresponds exactly (and predates) Eckhart Tolle's use of the words (and in particular the Pain Body, which is exactly the engram);
    I'm not convinced about the four survival aims, or about the descriptions of pain and pleasure (I tend to side with the Buddha on this, and see pleasure and pain as pretty much the same.)

    What intrigues me most however, is the description of how engrams are passed to us via the fertilized egg; this confirms what I have read but not understood from tibetan buddhism (via bonpo) that we are literally the continuation of our parents, and puts a whole new slant on the concept of rebirth (for me)- remember what Exodus said about the sins [errors] of the fathers [and mothers]:

    ''visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

    Fantastic post, as you can see from the above, its really got me buzzing here!!

    Love, bram
    Last edited by bram; 21st May 2013 at 10:30.
    May all living beings (including you and me) find true happiness and remain healthy; may they be wise and compassionate in their actions, may they find lasting peace, and may no harm come to them. May all beings find the patience and endurance to deal with disappointment and failure, may they be released from karma and may they find enlightenment. May loving kindness fill the hearts of all living beings, near and far.

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Just my 2c worth - after completing the Self Assessment Test quite superficially, I was amazed by the fact that I suddenly felt like, & ate, a whole banana.

    I had not been able to face bananas since a childhood "trauma" after my mother punished me for helping myself to a banana, without first asking permission The punishment was to eat the entire bunch, after which I never wanted to see, smell or taste another one. . . .so I am impressed!!
    Last edited by kirolak; 21st May 2013 at 10:49. Reason: typo

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    Default Re: Q and A about Ron Hubbard, Bill Robertson, Scientology, the Free Zone and Ron's Org

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

    Q and A threads (like this one) are problematic, and unwittingly often invite trouble -- because if a post or a question is missed quite by accident, one is always accused of cherry-picking the questions or evading an issue. In most cases, that is never so.
    And here's a perfect case in point! I'd noted at the time -- but had then quite forgotten about -- wegge's post here (#24 on the previous page), asking about Ken Ogger. (An interesting and disturbing story.) I will definitely respond soonest.

    Moral of the story: someone (especially wegge!) might easily have assumed that for some reason I was avoiding the question. Not at all. Just way too many communications (including e-mails and PMs) to deal with easily. (Fred, here's a thought: have you wondered how many PMs Jim may have been getting?)

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