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Thread: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

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    Default Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    I lost the article on Toyota and Honda, but it was pretty good, then I saw this article on Hyundai... Funny that in one article Elon Musk says this is stupid... (he is stupid for saying that...) ...because it's not using a battery, it's really a generator... (what's wrong with that? ...other then competition for his polluting over priced batteries...

    In fact if you believe the Fulford stuff this is the push into the market of the water car, remember Japan rolled out fully designed water cars? So these may be the transition vehicles, and if that's the case... Who cares if we don't have "energy distribution controlling" hydrogen stations... We won't need them! (ultimately) ... They just have to create an efficient water electrolyzing system... and all the pieces are in place... Direct feed water to hydrogen/oxygen.... direct to fuel cell.... direct to energy generation.... awesome!!!!

    So this makes perfect sense to me... Let's see who is going to try and stop Japan this time around from giving the world zero emission hydrogen cars (US, Canada, Britain???? via EU ... who knows... this should be interesting, this brings Ballard back into the picture, this market is getting ripe for commercial penetration... Did someone say the Rockefellers exited the oil industry??!!

    Hyundai pushes ahead with fuel-cell powered vehicle
    Zero-emissions car renews hope within B.C. fuel cell industry

    http://www.vancouversun.com/business..._lsa=5b8f-962c



    Quote On Wednesday, Hyundai said it is making its Tucson FCEV available to customers in Vancouver starting in 2015 on a three-year lease at $599 per month.

    In an attempt to woo users with something new, but somewhat familiar, the fuel cell Tucson is based on Hyundai’s traditional, gasoline-powered Tucson crossover vehicle
    ...The Tucson FCEV works by drawing oxygen and combining it with stored hydrogen in a fuel cell pack that creates electricity for powering the motor and charging the battery.

    There is only a single hydrogen refuelling station in the Lower Mainland that is capable of filling 700 bar, or what is considered a full tank. It’s operated by Powertech Labs Inc and located in Surrey. There are a few other hydrogen filling stations, but most only fill to 350 bar, Romano said.
    Last edited by sigma6; 29th November 2014 at 09:14.
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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    Musk is full of crap... apparently one of the critiques against hydrogen vehicles is their safety... have you ever seen a batter explode?
    The future belongs to hydrogen...

    Another Tesla Caught On Fire While Sitting In A Toronto Garage This Month
    http://www.businessinsider.com/febru...#ixzz3KRnvOEaW



    Quote Earlier this month, a Tesla Model S sitting in a Toronto garage ignited and caught on fire. The car was about four months old and was not plugged in to an electric socket, says a source.

    Fires are a touchy issue for the company, which reports Q4 2013 earnings on February 19th.
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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    Toyota to Start Sales of Fuel Cell Car Next Month
    http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wir...month-26983644



    Update: Glad I copied and pasted this one, the entire article (and pic) is now MISSING from ABCNEWS.com... (guess it just wasn't that news worthy!!!???)


    There will only be a few hundred, and they won't be cheap, but Toyota is about to take its first small step into the unproven market for emissions-free, hydrogen-powered vehicles.

    The world's largest automaker announced Tuesday that it will begin selling fuel cell cars in Japan on Dec. 15 and in the U.S. and Europe in mid-2015. The sporty-looking, four-door Toyota Mirai will retail for 6.7 million yen ($57,600) before taxes. Toyota Motor Corp hopes to sell 400 in Japan and 300 in the rest of the world in the first year.

    "In time, the fuel cell vehicle will become mainstream. We wanted to take the first step," said Mitsuhisa Kato, a Toyota executive vice president, at the vehicle's launch Tuesday. "We want to be at the leading edge."

    Fuel cell vehicles run on compressed hydrogen gas, which in the Mirai's case is stored in two tanks mounted underneath the vehicle. They emit no exhaust, though fossil fuels are used in the production of hydrogen and to pressurize it. Both Honda and Hyundai are also experimenting with limited sales and leases of fuel cell cars. Honda showed a fuel cell concept car on Monday.

    Besides the relatively high cost, buyers will have to contend with finding fuel. Only a few dozen hydrogen filling stations have been built worldwide, though governments are subsidizing the construction of more.

    It's an uncertain future that depends both on whether makers can bring down the price, and a wide-enough network of filling stations is built. Yoshikazu Tanaka, deputy chief engineer for Toyota's next generation vehicle development, said he expects it will take 10-20 years for the Mirai to reach sales in the tens of thousands of vehicles a year.

    Asked if it's a risk, he said yes, but Toyota views it as a challenge. Likening it to a chicken and egg situation, he said if you say it's too risky and don't move forward with production, the number of filling stations will never grow. Toyota faced a similar scenario with its gasoline-electric hybrid, the Prius, which now sells in big numbers.

    "It was a big challenge when we first introduced the Prius, or hybrid car, in 1997," he said in an interview in Tokyo. "And it's an even bigger challenge this time because there is no infrastructure, and we're trying to lead" the commercialization of fuel cell cars.

    Hoping to offset the inconvenience of finding fuel, Toyota gave the car a futuristic look inside and out — Mirai means future in Japanese — and made it peppy to try to attract buyers. It accelerates particularly quickly from about 40 to 70 kilometers (25 to 45 miles) per hour, Tanaka said.

    The Japanese government also plans to offer a 2 million yen subsidy to purchasers of fuel cell cars, reducing the effective price to 4.7 million yen.

    Sales will be limited to the primarily urban areas that have fueling stations.

    In Japan, with about 30 stations, that means the regions around Tokyo, Osaka and Nagoya cities in central and western Japan and the northern part of Kyushu island in the south. A few stations have opened in California in the United States, and there are plans to build some in the Northeast. Germany and the United Kingdom are among European countries that have or plan to build them.

    The company has about 200 pre-orders for the vehicle, mainly government agencies and companies that want to go green, the company said. Over time, Kato said, Toyota hopes to help build a "hydrogen society."

    The Mirai can travel 650 to 700 kilometers (400-435 miles) on its two tanks of hydrogen. In the US, its range is 300 miles because of different driving conditions.

    Hydrogen may be more expensive than gas initially, because there are so few customers but, over time, Toyota expects it will be cheaper to run a car on hydrogen than with gas.

    "To rely less on oil is very important," said Kato. "Japan has to spend its money to import fuel, so we should use it as carefully as possible."


    Last edited by sigma6; 2nd December 2014 at 14:24.
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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    Toyota’s Fuel Cell Plans Grab Headlines
    http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bus...ines/19620409/



    I see a steady and growing attack on fuel cells... interesting, why would a competitor in a totally unrelated field care that someone is doing something that "supposedly" is not going to work down the road?... All the articles I am reading are heavy on this criticism from battery advocates... I see some propaganda war of words on the horizon... Personally I see hydrogen (even fuel cell hydrogen vehicles as preferable to batteries, heavy, expensive, for ever having to be replaced, and toxic waste management intensive batteries... multiplied by millions and millions, will create a waste hazard nightmare issue on an unimaginable scale.

    Anyhow what is odd is how constant and nitpicky the battery advocates are while, the fuel cell people just talk largely talk about their own technology... interesting...


    Quote Why would Toyota and others pursue fuel cells then? Government subsidies?
    Or they see something the West doesn't...

    Quote battery-car proselytizers, who wonder why Toyota, AND Honda AND Hyundai, have "wasted" so much time and money on a technology [with] high production prices, [and] the need for scarce commodities like platinum, etc...
    - These are valid arguments? High prices of production is at the start of EVERY NEW technology, and hydrogen is not a NEW technology, it's an old technology waiting to "explode" onto the market, and I think that time is very, very near, if not RIGHT NOW! (it actually began commercially mainstream with Ballard 10 years ago, but they couldn't do it alone...) Also the idea that we shouldn't pursue it, because rare earth elements are not immediately available in the Western world is a reason not to pursue it? but we have driven automobiles on Middle Eastern oil for over 50 years??? Using what should have been a lubricant... as fuel instead?

    i.e. This is a bit of a subtle propaganda piece, nice, innocent, but patronizing and biased in it's lack of depth imo... but take note, because this will be the tenor of all future articles I am sure... Clearly there is something Elon Musk isn't telling us... Or the Japanese Auto manufacturers either maybe. The article admits, ALL the major manufacturers have a model in the "backroom" All I know there is something big going down, this time...

    The only thing holding this back is infrastructure, NOT viability. And whoever invests in it first takes the biggest financial hit and sacrifice... (chicken and egg) Maybe Japan has figured out an angle to make this happen and still move forward...



    Article:
    Toyota’s launch of the Mirai fuel-cell powered car at the Los Angeles car show was greeted by “game-over” victory shouts by some alternative technology advocates saying battery-only powered cars have been driving down a dead-end street.

    Not so, say the battery-car proselytizers, who wonder why Toyota, and to a lesser extent Honda and Hyundai, have wasted so much time and money on a technology fatally undermined by sky-high production prices, the need for scarce commodities like platinum, questions about safety, and the lack of a hydrogen infrastructure.

    At the show, Volkswagen joined in the fuel cell rush, unveiling its Golf SportWagen Hymotion concept car. Its subsidiary Audi did the same with the A7 h-tron. BMW has hydrogen cars on its backburner, as do all the big car manufacturers.

    Critics of batteries tend to be matter-of-fact in their criticism of the technological limits, led by range-anxiety and price doubts. Fuel cell critics tend to be much more strident, led by Tesla Motors CEO Elon Musk with his famous quote that “fuel cells are so (BS). Hydrogen is suitable for the upper stage of rockets but not for cars”.

    One way for cynics to explain away Toyota’s big spending on fuel cells is the availability of money from governments eager to placate voter’s call for spending on environmentally friendly projects. Companies too are eager to show that they are committed to green policies, even though they probably would concede that many have no chance of success. And there is the fear of being blind-sided by a sudden technological development. This spending is often completely at variance with actual likely demand for new technology cars which can only begin to move off dealer lots unless backed by copious amounts of taxpayer dollars.

    If there is an area of agreement in the argument about what will replace the internal combustion engine (ICE), it is the consensus that there won’t be one for the foreseeable future. ICE engines will remain the overwhelming choice for maybe the next 50 years, unless fossil fuels run out before.

    Fuel cells barely register

    As for the more immediate future, a report by consultancy IHS Auto is respected by many. This said that by 2020 regular hybrids and plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) will account for almost five percent of global sales compared with less than one percent for electric only vehicles. By 2025, battery-only will have slowly expanded to 1.5 percent, while PHEVs and hybrids will push just past six percent. Fuel cell vehicles will barely register at all by 2025. So about 92.5 percent of cars in 2025 will be fossil-fuel powered.

    “I have not seen any evidence to undermine the IHS projections. Fuel cells are likely to be a very small percentages of global sales,” said Art Wheaton, senior lecturer at Cornell University’s ILP School.

    Wheaton said (ICE) power is likely to remain dominant for the next 50 years and will continue to be the fuel of choice until fossil fuel supplies run out. Electric cars are flawed, but he doesn’t see much future in hydrogen power either.

    “Most automotive experts do not believe that pure electric vehicles are the long-term answer. The same problems that faced electric cars over 115 years ago are still the same today. Batteries are heavy, expensive and do not go very far,” Wheaton said.

    Heavy and complex

    Toyota, and the big car manufacturers aren’t sure what will replace ICE power. Hybrids are heavy and carry around complex and costly redundant propulsion systems. Fuel cells are problematical because harnessing hydrogen is not simple or cheap.

    Why would Toyota and others pursue fuel cells then? Government subsidies.

    “Public policy has forced Toyota and others to develop electric cars and hybrids, not consumer demand,” Wheaton said.

    “Fuel cell vehicles are seen as the long term future for the auto industry but cost of development is prohibitively expensive and seen as only surviving the short term with subsidies,” Wheaton said.

    Peter Schmidt, editor of British-based newsletter Automotive Industry Data, believes the Toyota Mirai in particular and fuel cell cars in general will mark the end of the road for battery cars.

    In an editorial headlined “Toyota’s fuel-cell powered Mirai – nail in electric coffin?”, Schmidt said the company had already decided to by-pass battery-only cars as a fleeting stop-gap, in favor of hybrids and plug-in hybrids.

    “Yes, Mirai’s future commercial success is totally dependent on the future distribution of hydrogen fuel. On this issue too, Toyota’s hybrid-tested visionaries have a viable plan readily to hand. This is indeed a bad day for pure electric and all those who bet the house on them. No wonder Daimler cashed its Tesla shares,” Schmidt said.

    When it unveiled the Mirai, which means “future” in Japanese, Toyota also announced plans to kick-start hydrogen infrastructure with other auto manufacturers. A couple of months ago Daimler sold its four percent stake in Tesla, but said it will continue cooperation deals.

    Doubters line up

    But fuel cell doubters lined up to question the future of hydrogen vehicles.

    London-based Evercore ISI analyst Arndt Ellinghorst, in a report entitled “Fuel Cells or “Fool” Cells?” was puzzled by Toyota’s Mirai plans given the progress made by companies like Tesla.

    “We struggle to understand the rationale for FCEVs (fuel cell electric vehicles) given the performance capabilities already achieved by BEVs (battery electric vehicles),” Ellinghorst said.

    He couldn’t see why car buyers would go for fuel cells over a battery-only vehicle. Fuel cell vehicles are expensive and are loss leaders for their manufacturers. Costs of hydrogen to refuel are much higher than electricity.

    “Following our detailed dive into FCEV technology, our overriding conclusion is that with the exception of re-fuelling time FCEVs hold no clear advantages. When we look ahead to 2020 and 2025, independent research suggests that FCEVs will offer few advantages over BEVs from a consumer cost of ownership perspective and will be less efficient on a well to wheel basis,” Ellinghorst said.

    Battery expert Donald Sadoway, Professor of Materials Chemistry at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) is even more dismissive of fuel cells.

    “This is a dead end technology and (the manufacturers) are foolishly wasting their time. Where are they going to get the hydrogen from? It’s absolutely nuts. Who installs the infrastructure. You can’t send it down a natural gas pipeline. You need to have an entirely new infrastructure. I can’t explain it. It doesn’t make any sense,” Sadoway said.

    Sadoway also has an interest in a battery technology company, working with Dr Qichao Hu at startup SolidEnergy. This company is developing battery technology which can double the running life of smartphones and laptops, and which could eventually find its way into cars.

    Transforms

    The improvement is to lithium batteries, which will be able to operate safely at higher temperatures. This will cut costs, save weight and lengthen life because they won’t need the elaborate cooling systems current lithium-ion batteries need.

    “There are two major innovations that make this battery far superior to lithium ion – lithium metal in the negative electrode and a polymer membrane that acts as both electrolyte and separator. This transforms energy density by huge amount,” Sadoway said.

    If the technology can prove itself as suitable for cars, Sadoway predicts a big upheaval in battery-car appeal.

    “It could have a huge impact on cost and service lifetime which would then make the all-electric vehicle much more mainstream. Right now, it’s for early adopters and the Tesla is only for ultra-rich people. This would also have a huge derivative impact by even depressing demand and the price of petroleum ,” Sadoway said.

    Meanwhile, without big changes in battery technology the IHS Auto projections look safe.

    Grim

    “Based on a projection of today’s technology, with improvements like Tesla’s giga-factory which might bring down costs by about 30 percent from today, this will have minimum impact on the market place. But a radical breakthrough will mean you can throw out those forecasts,” Sadoway said.

    Sadoway sees another, grimmer and ominous obstacle to the future of fuel cells because of the dangerous nature of hydrogen.

    “When you see the first collision between hydrogen vehicles, then we’ll see the end of it,” Sadoway said.

    Neil Winton, European columnist for Autos Insider, is based in Sussex, England. E-mail him at neil.winton@btinternet.com

    Right... and wait until the first battery explodes in someone's face... that will be the end of that...
    Last edited by sigma6; 2nd December 2014 at 14:26.
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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    "they" don't like this because this will all lead to energy independence and decentralization of "CONTROL OF DISTRIBUTION" of the fuel source as I believe that hydrogen will eventually be able to be manufactured from multiple sources with greater efficiency, until it is almost free... and THIS what is the biggest threat to the powers that be...

    recall these vehicles could be used as an alternative source of electrical generation and plugged into a home.... O.O!
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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    The Honda vehicle was in the UK Auto Press.. glad to see some of the auto makers and leading the technology.

    I have a mk1 Honda Vehicle Insight.. 15 years old and possible of 105mpg from petrol.

    I also work for an OEM global car manufacturer..
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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    Hydrogen fuel cell a first at AJAC’s TestFest
    http://thechronicleherald.ca/wheelsn...0%99s-testfest


    Honda’s new Clarity Fuel Cell is more like your car than ever before
    http://www.gizmag.com/honda-clarity-fuel-cell/40133/


    TOKYO 2015: TOYOTA FCV PLUS CONCEPT REIMAGINES FUEL CELLS
    http://www.auto123.com/en/news/toyot...t-tokyo/61378/


    Toyota's FCV Plus concept doubles as a generator to power your home
    http://www.cnet.com/uk/news/toyotas-...rogen-concept/
    Last edited by sigma6; 31st October 2015 at 10:49.
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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    The on-board water-to-hydrogen car was already developed back in the 70s-80s by Stan Meyers, and he was murdered for it. It would be wonderful if that technology was allowed to be redeployed, but I have my doubts.
    Hydrogen fuel stations are just as bad as gasoline stations, in that manufacture and distribution are controlled by the few.
    Short of a Stanley Meyers type engine, I'll take an electric car any day. They are far more efficient in energy conservation, both in operation and in electrical distribution. Their batteries don't blow up either. A lead acid battery will explode, but not a lithium ion.

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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    not really these cars are laying the foundation for water cars, they just aren't allowed to do a full water car yet, otherwise they will get hit with another artificial "tsunami" attack, same goes for Australia, New Zealand...
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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    Quote Posted by sigma6 (here)
    not really these cars are laying the foundation for water cars, they just aren't allowed to do a full water car yet, otherwise they will get hit with another artificial "tsunami" attack, same goes for Australia, New Zealand...
    I'd have to disagree (although I wish it were the case). I think hydrogen will be made the old fashioned way, using lots of fossil fuel to make electricity, which will just be a re-purposing of the same old energy source.
    When have the giant energy companies ever had the welfare of the planet in mind while making money?
    In this respect, hydrogen will be a cleaner fuel source in the end but highly inefficient in the overall energy picture.
    On a more practical note, once you drive an electric car you'll never want to go back to any kind of internal combustion engine again. The performance of an electric motor is far superior to an ICE. You have constant torque throughout the entire speed range. No transmission, no shifting. Passing cars, making it through yellow lights and getting up to speed on a freeway on-ramp all become much easier.
    There is also the advantage of zero routine maintenance: no oil changes, no tune ups, no smog checks, etc. There really is no maintenance besides the usual tires, wipers and brakes.
    These, and other advantages, are going to make owning a standard hydrogen car unfeasible. Battery technology is advancing in leaps and bounds, so range and battery life will become less and less of an issue.
    The only advantage a hydrogen car has over a gasoline car is lack of pollution. There is also no infrastructure in place to fill them up, which is a major inconvenience. I can charge my car at home and at work(for free!).
    I just don't see hydrogen as a viable fuel source in the context of today's world.

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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    that's the beauty of it though isn't it... it does appear that control of distribution will always be tied up with major corporations like big oil, but the logistics is just not there for hydrogen... to compare hydrogen technology to the oil industry... is apples and oranges... the control of distribution which is currently happening via the vast amount of resources required to create refineries, which is really the secret of how "they" control the distribution of oil... doesn't exist with hydrogen... that is probably the number one reason why we are still using oil, i.e. the ease with which they can maintain control of distribution and the corresponding politics of graft and bribery that cultivates it...

    So if the Japanese have got you believing the same thing is happening with hydrogen... all I can say is bravo... well done... maybe that is why they are getting away with it... hmm... your view is appreciated, because if millions of others share it, then it does explain why they are able to do what they already have so far... because personally where I am standing I can't even see that... (your view...) sometimes I can't even see what main stream is seeing, because I have already "interpreted" the superficial level of mainstream media so automatically to what they are really doing... that it is necessary to get more common views on occasion... to see what the main stream perception is, the great majority, the still sleeping, the sheeple...

    Once hydrogen technology goes mainstream... it will be so obvious that there are literally hundreds of different ways to make it... your suggestion being only one of them that will fall by the way side very quickly I would imagine... (having served its purpose) Even today, thousands of people are doing it in their own garages and basements with hardware store parts... Bob Lazar could make millions designing and building his mini reactors to order that create the hydride necessary to create the safest storage medium for hydrogen storage, the well healed would jump at the chance (to have his setup... o.O?) although I think even this is just a transitional stage, or might remain as a small specialized segment of the market... (hydrogen technology will have a wider range of application then gasoline, by virtue of its unique properties, which we can already see happening today...) the the US military artificially holding back access to this harmless substance, hydride, which Lazar makes with his "mini reactor"... is nothing more then an artificial barrier holding back one of the last major obstacles to mainstream hydrogen use... i.e. 100% safe storage solution for vehicles designed to carry a fuel supply of hydrogen... assuming again you would want to go down this route... in a way what Lazar is doing is the most pragmatic and simplest way to do it... given his environment and resources... (i.e. using sunlight to electrolize hydrogen, and making his own Lithium Hydride) this supressive measure by US military is now equivalent to the boy holding his finger in the dam... because hydrogen on demand technology will be the most popular choice for obvious reasons...

    in any event giant companies are a necessary "evil"... analogous to the dinosaurs... which I am sure, in their hey day, they looked like they ruled the world... if you look farther out... their demise is inevitable (or at least how they are operated and controlled by a tiny hanfulf of self serving elitists... in the case of corporations, they are creating technology that will allow for greater and greater decentralization of technology production in general... confirmed daily by what we are seeing in various industries every day... instead of a small elite boardroom of directors and their cronies leveraging corporations to serve their own interests, they will become trustees of corporations designed to serve mankind...) which is technically what they are supposed to be already today...

    consider also other's points of view... for example from "Japanese eyes"... they are collectivists, and they import 100% of their oil, and they don't appreciate the Rockefeller designed GE nuclear reactors designed to be self imploding death traps... and they don't like being "forced to pay millions of dollars" to buy oil they wouldn't need to buy, while "sitting" on already corporate level manufactured small cars and mini-vans... that run on water... just because of a criminal cartel is holding a gun to their head... and their 70 years debt obligation is over (re: cost of losing the war in '45) they are looking to the future... the Japanese are not going to suck up to the US forever...

    and finally, the only reason the big companies operate the way they do is because millions of people think the way you do... o.O ... if there is any such thing as an "evolution" it will be in man's consciousness... and that is already happening... and the "infrastructure" for that new consciousness to tap into has been here (hidden in plain sight) for centuries... waiting to be discovered... the only thing missing is the awareness of millions of sheeple... still sleeping...

    Big corporations are not all bad... just like the dinosaurs served a purpose, barely guided by instinct, terraforming the planet over 70 millions years... corporations have created the necessary infrastructure that creates the sophisticated world we live in today... like the war effort created the manufacturing plants that in turn created the american dream of the 50's... the world's corporations have the potential to do the same thing for the whole planet today... the only issue remaining is the politics and the awakening of people to see it...



    TargeT has a great post that also validates exactly what I am talking about...

    Quote Honda might have a solution, though: it’s developing a compact Smart Hydrogen Station, enabling you to use high-pressure electrolysis to produce your own hydrogen at home. There’s no word on when that might be available, but if it’s affordable, it could be a huge breakthrough in speeding the adoption of fuel cell vehicles.
    Technological advances that will directly affect you in the next 2 years
    Post #110
    https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1014024

    This is almost telegraphing too much... but there you have it...
    Last edited by sigma6; 1st November 2015 at 09:22.
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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    I have anything but a mainstream view of hydrogen production. I have been an alternative energy researcher and builder for many years, and fully understand what is involved. Water to "hydroxy" is a reality, and has been produced by quite a few people. Will it be allowed to go mainstream? Hell no! There have been countless "free energy" devices invented over the years and not one has made it to the marketplace. Dream all you want.
    If the floodgates are ever opened, our cars will fly and the internal combustion engine will be relegated to a museum. In the meantime, I will still drive an electric car even if hydrogen somehow becomes viable. If a Stan Meyers type technology does miraculously become available, I will use that type of generator to charge my electric car! This is because an electric drive train is far superior to that of any ICE.

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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    Is this the real reason VW have been so thoroughly bushwhacked ?

    Audi "on the brink" of showing a fuel cell vehicle
    Quote German car maker poised to go into production with a new dynamic & efficient hydrogen-powered car

    Audi bosses have confirmed they’re “on the brink” of showing a new hydrogen car that is more dynamic, more efficient and that offers an even greater range than anything currently in production.

    The undisclosed FCV was mooted at Audi’s Future Performance Event in Madrid on Monday, though engineers are keeping tight-lipped on what bodystyle the production car might adopt.

    It’ll build on previous hydrogen-powered A2 and Q5 concepts, as well as the current Audi A7 h-tron prototype, which does 0-62mph in 7.9 seconds and can return a range of more than 300 miles. While it’s never been offered in production form, it looks and drives just like a normal A7 – only quieter.
    http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/audi/a7...rce=newsletter
    Last edited by Taurean; 14th November 2015 at 01:12.
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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    Quote Posted by sigma6 (here)
    "they" don't like this because this will all lead to energy independence and decentralization of "CONTROL OF DISTRIBUTION" of the fuel source as I believe that hydrogen will eventually be able to be manufactured from multiple sources with greater efficiency, until it is almost free... and THIS what is the biggest threat to the powers that be...

    recall these vehicles could be used as an alternative source of electrical generation and plugged into a home.... O.O!
    I used to love looking at my dad's monthly Popular Mechanics magazine. A friend linked me an article today about hydrogen energy, (below), and I found some other fascinating articles to browse there. Haven't thought about hydrogen energy for several years, when it had been quite a topic in alt. news. Interesting that it still appears to be very much in the picture.

    Tiny Nuclear Reactors Yield a Huge Amount of Clean Hydrogen
    Engineers Are Building Huge Salt Caves to Store Huge Amounts of Hydrogen
    "We're all bozos on this bus"

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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    most sensible energy source and byproduct, water. The tech and all has been there. The will to bring it forward has been thwarted. good to see again.

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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    Quote Posted by Sue (Ayt) (here)
    Quote Posted by sigma6 (here)
    "they" don't like this because this will all lead to energy independence and decentralization of "CONTROL OF DISTRIBUTION" of the fuel source as I believe that hydrogen will eventually be able to be manufactured from multiple sources with greater efficiency, until it is almost free... and THIS what is the biggest threat to the powers that be...

    recall these vehicles could be used as an alternative source of electrical generation and plugged into a home.... O.O!
    I used to love looking at my dad's monthly Popular Mechanics magazine. A friend linked me an article today about hydrogen energy, (below), and I found some other fascinating articles to browse there. Haven't thought about hydrogen energy for several years, when it had been quite a topic in alt. news. Interesting that it still appears to be very much in the picture.

    Tiny Nuclear Reactors Yield a Huge Amount of Clean Hydrogen
    Engineers Are Building Huge Salt Caves to Store Huge Amounts of Hydrogen
    Battery banks and solar are already doing this...

    I don't think hydrogen will ever go anywhere, a lot of infrastructure would have to be built, and we have only 1 elon musk
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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    Quote Posted by TargeT (here)
    Quote Posted by Sue (Ayt) (here)
    Quote Posted by sigma6 (here)
    "they" don't like this because this will all lead to energy independence and decentralization of "CONTROL OF DISTRIBUTION" of the fuel source as I believe that hydrogen will eventually be able to be manufactured from multiple sources with greater efficiency, until it is almost free... and THIS what is the biggest threat to the powers that be...

    recall these vehicles could be used as an alternative source of electrical generation and plugged into a home.... O.O!
    I used to love looking at my dad's monthly Popular Mechanics magazine. A friend linked me an article today about hydrogen energy, (below), and I found some other fascinating articles to browse there. Haven't thought about hydrogen energy for several years, when it had been quite a topic in alt. news. Interesting that it still appears to be very much in the picture.

    Tiny Nuclear Reactors Yield a Huge Amount of Clean Hydrogen
    Engineers Are Building Huge Salt Caves to Store Huge Amounts of Hydrogen
    Battery banks and solar are already doing this...

    I don't think hydrogen will ever go anywhere, a lot of infrastructure would have to be built, and we have only 1 elon musk
    You may well be right but there is a great deal of interest from many sources at present.

    Of particular interest to me is the last link, regarding Aberdeen. I have seen the Hydrogen filling stations there and as you may well know Aberdeen was the centre of the oil industry in the North Sea. There is a great many energy savvy people in that city thoroughly invested in making it happen.

    https://h2.live/en Good clear map here.

    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...an/ar-BB1bspiU

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/sci...united-states/

    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...-powered-train

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/30/uk-t...novation-.html

    https://www.maltatoday.com.mt/busine...en_truck_trial

    https://www.aberdeencity.gov.uk/serv...nt/h2-aberdeen

    Edit: Update, from the first link.

    Quote How much does hydrogen cost?
    Hydrogen is billed in kilogrammes. The price for one kilogramme of hydrogen at all public H2 filling stations in Germany is €9.50 (gross). A fuel-cell vehicle consumes approx. one kilogramme of hydrogen, incurring fuel costs of €9.50, per 100 km. Thus, the fuel costs are comparable with those of an average petrol-powered car that consumes 7 litres per 100 km. (mileage of 14.3 km per litre; 33.6 miles per gallon)
    There will be reason to do it if they can keep milking the peasants for the same prices the pay now.
    Last edited by Ewan; 19th December 2020 at 18:06.

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    Default Re: Hydrogen Cars Are Back... This Time Toyota, and Honda & Hyundai Are Spearheading...

    Quote Posted by Ewan (here)
    There will be reason to do it if they can keep milking the peasants for the same prices the pay now.
    its the petrol system in a different disguise...

    You can collect sun at your house and power everything you need... you can't make hydrogen with out power.... why add an extra step?

    this seems like a "green" way of controlling energy... not a good thing for "we the people"
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