Was Osho Murdered? Was Osho a Targeted Individual?

[ulli]

Posted by Flash (here)
I love Ulli but for once, I do not agree with your statement.

If someone has to work to help victims of a cult, or any agression, because of their own experience, they may be much more effective, in my views, once the upset/PTSD is worked through. Sometimes being told to let go just allows one to Wake up and get to act more efficiently, Plus it often help the body as well, when letting go. This does not mean not remembering, or denying. It means ending the anger/emotional process with whatever mean necessary. But memory does remain, it is why one can act for others and help.

Now, genuine exposure of misdeeds should never be censored, this I fully agree. Otherwise we are playing the same game as Cabal is.

Posted by ulli (here)
Getting clear of the damage done to one's psyche by a psychopath can take years.
No one should ever pressurize a victim to let go.
If a person then takes their experience and makes a profession out of it, to help others heal,
kudos to them.
All attacks and defense responses in relation to gurus only play further into the dark agenda.
However, genuine exposing of the misdeeds of public figures should never be censored, in my view.

It's ok to differ. I used to tell people what they needed to do, but as an astrologer have learnt that this is not my place.
It's hardly ever an effective tool.

I rather offer a menu of options. Less judgmental.
How can anyone ever know at what point of development another finds themselves?
These points shift and change, like sands.

[Delight]

Posted by Silkie (here)

Posted by ulli (here)
Getting clear of the damage done to one's psyche by a psychopath can take years.
No one should ever pressurize a victim to let go.
If a person then takes their experience and makes a profession out of it, to help others heal,
kudos to them.
All attacks and defense responses in relation to gurus only play further into the dark agenda.
However, genuine exposing of the misdeeds of public figures should never be censored, in my view.

Thank you for this, Ulli.

Yes. Letting go is something that happens in its own time. It is not something that can be forced...not by anybody. I am not talking about cults and gurus and psychopaths from an armchair, after all, and if people want to see that as "having issues", well,

And btw, everything I have written here about Rajneesh and his cult has been to show why I think he was not targeted. He was not targeted at all, as much as some wish he had been. No. He self-destructed. Eyewitness testimony makes that clear, as several links on this thread show.

I don't know about any one else, but I was raised in the "normal narcissistic" milieu where I was physically punished for being angry among other insults to my autonomy as a being. The hairbrush came out when I fought with my brother. No one but the chief narcissist was allowed to express herself unless it was pleasant.

As Silkie pointed out other places about the narcissist cult, we (in the family)were only valuable as supply for the narcissist. The members of any cult group are only fuel for the organization. What does that say about legacies of these groups??? How can you get a silk purse out of a sow's ear?

In the case of a cult, the supply rendered by "followers" is apologetic defense for all abuse. "OH Yes, I (we, they) MUST have meant well". Otherwise one would have to get righteously angry at the facts. Look at scientology and the willingness for members to go to the hole. One can also be buying in to the leader's worth and value with buying books and perhaps, the megalomaniacal energy that STARTED in the person can then become an independent entity which could persist for generations selling the "ideas"? That is perhaps religion and its designated lineage of ordained mouth piece.

[Selkie]

Posted by ulli (here)
...an astrologer have learnt that this is not my place.

Yes, and although I know they mean well, Flash and the others who have presumed to advise me to "let it go" in one way or another are not therapists. And they certainly are not my therapists.

But I do want to thank you, Flash, for the expression of affection you gave me. It means a lot to me that you and others care. It really does.

[Delight]

Posted by Silkie (here)

Posted by ulli (here)
...an astrologer have learnt that this is not my place.

Yes, and although I know they mean well, Flash and the others who have presumed to advise me to "let it go" in one way or another are not therapists. And they certainly are not my therapists.

But I do want to thank you, Flash, for the expression of affection you gave me. It means a lot to me that you and others care. It really does.

One point I would like to make regarding the extreme of pro and anti....they do both support a structure like the extremes of a rocking chair back and forth.

I do not pretend to know what to "do"about the (IMO) righteous anger that stems form intimate contact with "force". IMO this "force" exists within the human. It is a survival mechanism seeking for itself. Some call it alien. I dunno. it seems like some inbred aspect we are asking ourselves to learn to live without.

I consider my beliefs about this to be my own. One is asking to learn to be greater than this primitive self serving energy we have used. I say we ALL have been there done that. I seek to repent. That means something to me....

To survive, the force seeks total control and learns manipulative strategy. It can be ameliorated by "law" but unless we ourselves can manage to be greater than this force, IMO we will flip flop within its hold.

Wimps flopping in the hands of tyrants flip as soon as possible to tyrannical. I have even seen this in my mild mannered brother who married someone he dominates completely "with love". I doubt she has ever talked back once...another family managed in controlled ways for "normalcy".

The way we grow up in these homes not only confuses the living day lights out of one's reason but has the innate trajectory to fit us well into the larger cults.
I do not know what to do but I am not yet willing to let go of my concern. It was hurt that started me thinking something is ready to pop and we can release the binding allegiance to the narcissistic culture we hold so dear. If you think I am facetious, I am not.
It lurks everywhere two or more are gathered
It calls itself crazy wisdom's "truth"
and within the shadow world it may be?

Edit

I invoked "crazy wisdom" coined by a cult leader. The IMO foill of "why is the booby prize" discourages independent seeking. Seekers are not finders the adage goes so don't bother...just be what we say you already are....and be still.... and don't look behind the curtain because the curtain is swell...all sorts of discouagement.

IMO it is ONLY our own seeking that counts. Again this is my idea. But this is IMO the whole point...OUR seeking has to be the original one for us.

This quote suggests that we will never have the answer to our questions and so don't go there

In his book "Crazy wisdom", the Tibetan tülku Chögyam Trungpa describes the phenomenon as a process of spiritual discovery:

Instead we explore further and further and further without looking for an answer. [...] We don't make a big point or an answer out of any one thing. For example, we might think that because we have discovered one particular thing that is wrong with us, that must be it, that must be the problem, that must be the answer. No. We don't fixate on that, we go further. "Why is that the case?" We look further and further. We ask: "Why is this so?" Why is there spirituality? Why is there awakening? Why is there this moment of relief? Why is there such a thing as discovering the pleasure of spirituality? Why, why, why?" We go on deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper, until we reach the point where there is no answer. [...] At that point we tend to give up hope of an answer, or of anything whatsoever, for that matter. [...] This hopelessness is the essence of crazy wisdom. It is hopeless, utterly hopeless.[3]

I say "Is this really true?" unless we have agreed. What if within me and MY searching, a really fine answer is discovered FOR me. BUt sitting at the foot of a guide will often be the end of questions. OH, that is only assuming it was not brow and butt beat out of one before 14 years old....

[greybeard]

This may be off topic but when I went to AA at first I had to tell my story over and over to get rid of the hurt and there was some justification for the pain I felt, caused by another--not imagined.

Eventually I realised that I no longer had to tell the story--I was free of it--eventually I completely forgave the other---I had to be ready to do that.
I became a therapist in order to help others and to clear some remaining crap in me---in time I found some spiritual teachings from various teacher which are helpful to this day. The mind is now quiet and I am at peace--still work to be done but no one has pushed or pulled me to do anything.

The teaching of Eckhart Tolle and now Mooji are more helpful to me than any therapy but I certainly do not discount them--they played their part and without AA I would not be alive

The AA Serenity Prayer sees me through any challenges. .

"God grant me the serenity
To Accept the things I can not change
Courage to change the things I can
Wisdom to know the difference."

Chris

[Limor Wolf]

Originally posted by Silkie: "It means a lot to me that you and others care."

Hi Silkie, these next very wise (as in wisdom) words are coming from a long standing Avalon member that can never be blamed for not caring

Originally posted by Runningdeer: "I’m appreciative of when the mods and forum members together help each of us to discover blind spots. We all gain from a supportive environment. One to think, and to absorb and to change.

When there’s a rinse and repeat behavior one would benefit if they step back to see the pattern. Break free of it. Or at least be honest with yourself.

See that the pay-off is a negative, lonely one. Look around. If the same behavior is done with ever-changing groups or friends, note that people catch on. The game gets old right-quick."

Be kind to yourself. Be a quick study. Grow. Move beyond. Shake it off. Do not consent like you wouldn’t consent to a mind program, a tag or an implant. Shake it off.

Growth is willingness to let go of what worked yesterday and see it’s an anchor today. Hitch a ride on to wisdom path.

With heart,
RunningDeer<3

Taken out of context and borrowed with appreciation from the 'Here and Now' thread -

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post975314

[Selkie]

Posted by Limor Wolf (here)

Originally posted by Silkie: "It means a lot to me that you and others care."

Hi Silkie, these next very wise (as in wisdom) words are coming from a long standing Avalon member that can never be blamed for not caring

Originally posted by Runningdeer: "I’m appreciative of when the mods and forum members together help each of us to discover blind spots. We all gain from a supportive environment. One to think, and to absorb and to change.

When there’s a rinse and repeat behavior one would benefit if they step back to see the pattern. Break free of it. Or at least be honest with yourself.

See that the pay-off is a negative, lonely one. Look around. If the same behavior is done with ever-changing groups or friends, note that people catch on. The game gets old right-quick."

Be kind to yourself. Be a quick study. Grow. Move beyond. Shake it off. Do not consent like you wouldn’t consent to a mind program, a tag or an implant. Shake it off.

Growth is willingness to let go of what worked yesterday and see it’s an anchor today. Hitch a ride on to wisdom path.

With heart,
RunningDeer<3

Taken out of context and borrowed with appreciation from the 'Here and Now' thread -

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post975314

What are you trying to tell me?

[Limor Wolf]

Posted by Silkie (here)

Posted by Limor Wolf (here)

Originally posted by Silkie: "It means a lot to me that you and others care."

Hi Silkie, these next very wise (as in wisdom) words are coming from a long standing Avalon member that can never be blamed for not caring

Originally posted by Runningdeer: "I’m appreciative of when the mods and forum members together help each of us to discover blind spots. We all gain from a supportive environment. One to think, and to absorb and to change.

When there’s a rinse and repeat behavior one would benefit if they step back to see the pattern. Break free of it. Or at least be honest with yourself.

See that the pay-off is a negative, lonely one. Look around. If the same behavior is done with ever-changing groups or friends, note that people catch on. The game gets old right-quick."

Be kind to yourself. Be a quick study. Grow. Move beyond. Shake it off. Do not consent like you wouldn’t consent to a mind program, a tag or an implant. Shake it off.

Growth is willingness to let go of what worked yesterday and see it’s an anchor today. Hitch a ride on to wisdom path.

With heart,
RunningDeer<3

Taken out of context and borrowed with appreciation from the 'Here and Now' thread -

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post975314

What are you trying to tell me?

That there may be something in there that may be of interest. Take it or leave it

[Selkie]

Posted by Limor Wolf (here)

Posted by Silkie (here)

Posted by Limor Wolf (here)

Originally posted by Silkie: "It means a lot to me that you and others care."

Hi Silkie, these next very wise (as in wisdom) words are coming from a long standing Avalon member that can never be blamed for not caring

Originally posted by Runningdeer: "I’m appreciative of when the mods and forum members together help each of us to discover blind spots. We all gain from a supportive environment. One to think, and to absorb and to change.

When there’s a rinse and repeat behavior one would benefit if they step back to see the pattern. Break free of it. Or at least be honest with yourself.

See that the pay-off is a negative, lonely one. Look around. If the same behavior is done with ever-changing groups or friends, note that people catch on. The game gets old right-quick."

Be kind to yourself. Be a quick study. Grow. Move beyond. Shake it off. Do not consent like you wouldn’t consent to a mind program, a tag or an implant. Shake it off.

Growth is willingness to let go of what worked yesterday and see it’s an anchor today. Hitch a ride on to wisdom path.

With heart,
RunningDeer<3

Taken out of context and borrowed with appreciation from the 'Here and Now' thread -

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...l=1#post975314

What are you trying to tell me?

That there may be something in there that may be of interest. Take it or leave it

Thanks for sharing. I know you mean well.

[Hervé]

How about that topic...

[Selkie]

Posted by Hervé (here)
How about that topic...

Thank you!

[Michel Leclerc]

Posted by Silkie (here)

Posted by Michel Leclerc (here)
...I guess we are all psychopaths.

No, we are not. They are a very specific group, about 1% of the general population. Do a search. You will find tons of info. There are lots of links just in this thread where you can start to learn about them.

Dear Silkie, thank you for your concern, but I mind a little bit the condescending tone.

My remark about the term "psychopath" was inspired by the fact that I think it is an unnecessary term.

It belongs in American psychiatric textbooks and their judicial use. This judicial use has not a very good reputation, considering that it is being used in a culture with a high incidence of internecine as well as "outward-directed" violence.

In European, non-Anglo-saxon cultures it is not used that much unless as a reference to the American context which of course a certain number of Anglo-Saxon culture dominated psychiatrists are fond of doing.

Non-Anglo-Saxon-culture-brainwashed psychoanalysts (notice my using another term) belonging to Freudian or Lacanian or "anti-psychiatric" schools tend to be very cautious with using it, except in the very general sense I described, suscribe to and label myself with (kindly inviting you all to accept the label).

However, persons of the Anglo-Saxon persuasion have long since adopted the term in common language, meaning something like (as I ironically said quoting our beloved leader George W. or was it our beloved leader Donald R.) "rotten apple", or, if you prefer: "mass murderer".

It seems to me that one should be cautious with labeling people with this term, especially as it is too readily available and "useful" in a social context gleefully prone to scapegoating.

I personally see a slight difference between a person who butchered 40-odd young men for sexual pleasure, or another person who ordered the liquefaction by white phosphorus of several thousands of people and the bomb-and-bullet slaughter of a few hundreds of thousands more, and somebody like Rajneesh/Osho.

Using the blanket term "psychopath" does not help, and using the psychiatric textbook term "psychopath" does not help either.

This being said, I am obviously interested in learning facts about his life and writings, and thankful for your incentive to do so.

[Flash]

Michel, tu as tort

Psychopaths is certainly not used in Canada or the Commonwealth countries for its meaning in the judicial system. Since we almost do not sue here. Yet, the term is used to describe either someone who is a serial killer, or someone who has no empathy, does not care for others and does not understand why one should care. It is used in its true meaning. The description and cause are the same, may it be a serial killer or a corporate psychopath. The brain structures are the same as well.

And to be able to understand what we are talking about, a description or word is needed - otherwise we are talking of non existent things. Which was naively believed by most for centuries, that psychopathy was non existent, since it could not be described and pinned down with a simple word.

I have rarely seen the term psychopath used in daily living, it is not a blanket term, at least not in Canada, French or English. But yes, it is more and more used for some of the 1%, justifiably I think.

Posted by Michel Leclerc (here)

Posted by Silkie (here)

Posted by Michel Leclerc (here)
...I guess we are all psychopaths.

No, we are not. They are a very specific group, about 1% of the general population. Do a search. You will find tons of info. There are lots of links just in this thread where you can start to learn about them.

Dear Silkie, thank you for your concern, but I mind a little bit the condescending tone.

My remark about the term "psychopath" was inspired by the fact that I think it is an unnecessary term.

It belongs in American psychiatric textbooks and their judicial use. This judicial use has not a very good reputation, considering that it is being used in a culture with a high incidence of internecine as well as "outward-directed" violence.

In European, non-Anglo-saxon cultures it is not used that much unless as a reference to the American context which of course a certain number of Anglo-Saxon culture dominated psychiatrists are fond of doing.

Non-Anglo-Saxon-culture-brainwashed psychoanalysts (notice my using another term) belonging to Freudian or Lacanian or "anti-psychiatric" schools tend to be very cautious with using it, except in the very general sense I described, suscribe to and label myself with (kindly inviting you all to accept the label).

However, persons of the Anglo-Saxon persuasion have long since adopted the term in common language, meaning something like (as I ironically said quoting our beloved leader George W. or was it our beloved leader Donald R.) "rotten apple", or, if you prefer: "mass murderer".

It seems to me that one should be cautious with labeling people with this term, especially as it is too readily available and "useful" in a social context gleefully prone to scapegoating.

I personally see a slight difference between a person who butchered 40-odd young men for sexual pleasure, or another person who ordered the liquefaction by white phosphorus of several thousands of people and the bomb-and-bullet slaughter of a few hundreds of thousands more, and somebody like Rajneesh/Osho.

Using the blanket term "psychopath" does not help, and using the psychiatric textbook term "psychopath" does not help either.

This being said, I am obviously interested in learning facts about his life and writings, and thankful for your incentive to do so.

[Michel Leclerc]

You re-quote, as an argument, for some form of -pathy, Silkie, the following snippet:

I get e-mails every year from a few sannyasin girls who had group sex with him during his “Tantra Group” years in Poona

I have explored Tantra, to be more precise: "left-hand" Tantra. To the non-initiate observer, Tantra may appear to be about "group sex". This is however definitely not the case: it amounts to saying that areoplane building is about screwdriving.

Assuming that the author means that the "few sannyasin girls" were hurt by their experiences, the phrasing of the argument ("I get e-mails every year") is one which does not even begin to try and understand what Tantra is about. It is fast re-labeled "group sex" and then that is transformed into a point of accusation (with the "obviously" innuendo conspicuous).

This is not a very sane or sound argument: it tells more about the person using it than about the reality that has been reframed.

I obviously agree that any serious spiritual work, especially when involving sexuality, should be consensual. But establishing this, in this context, and post factum, would be difficult in judicial or therapeutic contexts – so how can we get to the truth?

[Selkie]

Posted by Michel Leclerc (here)
You re-quote, as an argument, for some form of -pathy, Silkie, the following snippet:

I get e-mails every year from a few sannyasin girls who had group sex with him during his “Tantra Group” years in Poona

I have explored Tantra, to be more precise: "left-hand" Tantra. To the non-initiate observer, Tantra may appear to be about "group sex". This is however definitely not the case: it amounts to saying that areoplane building is about screwdriving.

Assuming that the author means that the "few sannyasin girls" were hurt by their experiences, the phrasing of the argument ("I get e-mails every year") is one which does not even begin to try and understand what Tantra is about. It is fast re-labeled "group sex" and then that is transformed into a point of accusation (with the "obviously" innuendo conspicuous).

This is not a very sane or sound argument: it tells more about the person using it than about the reality that has been reframed.

I obviously agree that any serious spiritual work, especially when involving sexuality, should be consensual. But establishing this, in this context, and post factum, would be difficult in judicial or therapeutic contexts – so how can we get to the truth?

Taken in context with what is known about the group (the rapes, physical abuse, and poisoning of followers), I think it is pretty safe to assume that those girls probably did not have good experiences. From the wording and tone of the author, it is quite plain that she did not think so, either.

[greybeard]

The thread is not about Silkie, her opinions I respect even though I don't agree with them.
Everyone has the right to think what they want and find evidence to support their view point.
No doubt much evidence can be found to counter virtually any position.

ACIM says

"When you take up a position know that you are identifying with an illusion"

The less people identify, judge and label the more chance of waking up to our own reality.
That's freedom
That's what Osho pointed to. It may have got him killed.
Who really knows? I dont.

Chris

[Selkie]

Posted by Michel Leclerc (here)
...I personally see a slight difference between a person who butchered 40-odd young men for sexual pleasure, or another person who ordered the liquefaction by white phosphorus of several thousands of people and the bomb-and-bullet slaughter of a few hundreds of thousands more, and somebody like Rajneesh/Osho.

Rajneesh and his vicious crew poisoned more than 700 people, including a 2-day-old infant and an 87 year old...all to win an election. It was a stroke of pure luck that no one died. So, is the poisoning of 700 people enough, or would you not be happy unless they had actually killed someone? Like that baby, maybe.

[Selkie]

Posted by greybeard (here)
The thread is not about Silkie, her opinions I respect even though I don't agree with them....

Thank you for this, Chris. Thank you very much

[Ted]

I think Osho made enough enemies in the end that if he was murdered the list of suspects would be extensive. Also, he didn't say anything that hadn't been said many times before, so why would the government even bother? People don't take kindly to being disenfranchised from their local government, let alone being poisoned. How about the fathers of the girls who came crying home, and the people who lost their life savings? Nope, no lack of enemies.

[Selkie]

Posted by Ted (here)
I think Osho made enough enemies in the end that if he was murdered the list of suspects would be extensive. Also, he didn't say anything that hadn't been said many times before, so why would the government even bother? People don't take kindly to being disenfranchised from their local government, let alone being poisoned. How about the fathers of the girls who came crying home, and the people who lost their life savings? Nope, no lack of enemies.

Yes, and weirdly, during his Poona days, someone, a follower I believe, attempted to murder Rajneesh because he thought Rajneesh was a CIA agent**. So yes, no lack of enemies...not to mention that Rajneesh was his own worst enemy. All in all, Rajneesh strikes me as an extremely unhappy man. All the drug abuse points to it. It is very sad that such a brilliant man hated himself and the world and life so much.

** The link is in this thread somewhere.