Enlightenment: The Ego, what is it? How to transcend it.

[Mashika]

Posted by Clear Light (here)

Posted by Mashika (here)

To study the Buddha Way is to study the self.

If you "study" then you are following a structure, or path, and that's not Zen. That's Buddhism, and it, by definition of "studying" implies that there has to be someone who knows more than you, "A teacher" or "master'.

Then, just right there, a power structure was formed. You have to follow directions, you are under a structure of knowledge, you are no longer able to see yourself. Rather, you see what your master sees in you, and you will grow to become what he expects you to become, according the potential the master sees in you

Ah, but even the Historical Buddha was a student at one point, no doubt assiduously following the instructions of his teachers who were (so-to-say) further-along-the-path eh ?

Yet, as far as I am concerned, even if real ZEN is only a direct non-conceptual "seeing" it begs the question does it not, if there is no "you" (as some self), why spend so many years sitting cross-legged in front of a blank wall [1] eh ?

Image : the Japanese Landscape as at Kew Gardens London

[1] or perhaps at a ZEN garden ?

Alara Kalama was that teacher, and then he said "i can't teach you anymore, as far as this, we are equal" and then he released the student because he understood he was just slowing him down on the real path he had to follow

After that, in solitude, is when enlightenment came to Siddhartha Gautama. No one told him how or why, or where, or anything at all, as Alara Kalama actually "knew less" than the student

Therefore "I don’t say there is no Zen, only that there are no teachers"

why spend so many years sitting cross-legged in front of a blank wall

Why, indeed? That's a common western misconception about it all, Zen and meditation have nothing in common. That thing you mentioned there, sitting meditation, is a Buddhist thing, and not Zen at all, true Zen, doesn't even acknowledge Zazen as Buddhism does

You know why? Because it's a practice, a daily one, and that means "structure" and ideology, and organized religion after a while

And Zen, is nothing of that

Zazen, or sitting meditation, is not "Zen", it's Buddhism

Also there is no such thing as "Zen Buddhism" it's either Zen or Buddhism, it's impossible to be both. It's like breathing underwater, to attempt to mix both. But most people can't get why

[Clear Light]

Posted by Mashika (here)

why spend so many years sitting cross-legged in front of a blank wall

Why, indeed? That's a common western misconception about it all, Zen and meditation have nothing in common. That thing you mentioned there, sitting meditation, is a Buddhist thing, and not Zen at all, true Zen, doesn't even acknowledge Zazen as Buddhism does

You know why? Because it's a practice, a daily one, and that means "structure" and ideology, and organized religion after a while

And Zen, is nothing of that

Zazen, or sitting meditation, is not "Zen", it's Buddhism

Also there is no such thing as "Zen Buddhism" it's either Zen or Buddhism, it's impossible to be both. It's like breathing underwater, to attempt to mix both. But most people can't get why

Oh, no, to the contrary, as I see it, Zazen is precisely the expression of Zen eh ? What follows is from Dogen's Fukanzazengi :

The Way is basically perfect and all-pervading. How could it be contingent upon practice and realization? The Dharma-vehicle is free and untrammelled. What need is there for concentrated effort? Indeed, the whole body is far beyond the world's dust. Who could believe in a means to brush it clean? It is never apart from one, right where one is. What is the use of going off here and there to practice?

[...]

Need I mention the Buddha, who was possessed of inborn knowledge? The influence of his six years of upright sitting is noticeable still. Or Bodhidharma's transmission of the mind-seal?--the fame of his nine years of wall-sitting is celebrated to this day. Since this was the case with the saints of old, how can we today dispense with negotiation of the Way?

You should therefore cease from practice based on intellectual understanding, pursuing words and following after speech, and learn the backward step that turns your light inwardly to illuminate your self. Body and mind of themselves will drop away, and your original face will be manifest. If you want to attain suchness, you should practice suchness without delay.

[...]

Once you have adjusted your posture, take a deep breath, inhale and exhale, rock your body right and left and settle into a steady, immobile sitting position. Think not-thinking. How do you think not-thinking? Non-thinking. This in itself is the essential art of zazen.

The zazen I speak of is not learning meditation. It is simply the Dharma gate of repose and bliss, the practice-realization of totally culminated enlightenment. It is the manifestation of ultimate reality. Traps and snares can never reach it. Once its heart is grasped, you are like the dragon when he gains the water, like the tiger when she enters the mountain. For you must know that just there (in zazen) the right Dharma is manifesting itself and that, from the first, dullness and distraction are struck aside.

[...]

This being the case, intelligence or lack of it does not matter: between the dull and the sharp-witted there is no distinction. If you concentrate your effort single-mindedly, that in itself is negotiating the Way. Practice-realization is naturally undefiled. Going forward (in practice) is a matter of everydayness.

[xidaijena]

[QUOTE=Mashika;1451455]

To study the Buddha Way is to study the self.

If you "study" then you are following a structure, or path, and that's not Zen. That's Buddhism, and it, [COLOR="indigo"]by definition of "studying" implies that there has to be someone who knows more than you, "A teacher" or "master'
Then, just right there, a power structure was formed. You have to follow directions, you are under a structure of knowledge, you are no longer able to see yourself. Rather, you see what your master sees in you, and you will grow to become what he expects you to become, according the potential the master sees in you



Ah, but even the Historical Buddha was a student at one point, no doubt assiduously following the instructions of his teachers who were (so-to-say) further-along-the-path eh ?

Yet, as far as I am concerned, even if real ZEN is only a direct non-conceptual "seeing" it begs the question does it not, if there is no "you" (as some self), why spend so many years sitting cross-legged in front of a blank wall [1] eh ?

Image : the Japanese Landscape as at Kew Gardens London

[1] or perhaps at a ZEN garden ?

Alara Kalama was that teacher, and then he said "i can't teach you anymore, as far as this, we are equal" and then he released the student because he understood he was just slowing him down on the real path he had to follow

After that, in solitude, is when enlightenment came to Siddhartha Gautama. No one told him how or why, or where, or anything at all, as Alara Kalama actually "knew less" than the student

Therefore "I don’t say there is no Zen, only that there are no teachers"


why spend so many years sitting cross-legged in front of a blank wall

Why, indeed? That's a common western misconception about it all, Zen and meditation have nothing in common. That thing you mentioned there, sitting meditation, is a Buddhist thing, and not Zen at all, true Zen, doesn't even acknowledge Zazen as Buddhism does

You know why? Because it's a practice, a daily one, and that means "structure" and ideology, and organized religion after a while

And Zen, is nothing of that

Zazen, or sitting meditation, is not "Zen", it's Buddhism

Also there is no such thing as "Zen Buddhism" it's either Zen or Buddhism, it's impossible to be both. It's like breathing underwater, to attempt to mix both. But most people can't get why

i agree with you, Mashika, you do have a very good understanding about Buddism.

[xidaijena]

Posted by Clear Light (here)

Posted by Mashika (here)

why spend so many years sitting cross-legged in front of a blank wall

Why, indeed? That's a common western misconception about it all, Zen and meditation have nothing in common. That thing you mentioned there, sitting meditation, is a Buddhist thing, and not Zen at all, true Zen, doesn't even acknowledge Zazen as Buddhism does

You know why? Because it's a practice, a daily one, and that means "structure" and ideology, and organized religion after a while

And Zen, is nothing of that

Zazen, or sitting meditation, is not "Zen", it's Buddhism

Also there is no such thing as "Zen Buddhism" it's either Zen or Buddhism, it's impossible to be both. It's like breathing underwater, to attempt to mix both. But most people can't get why

Oh, no, to the contrary, as I see it, Zazen is precisely the expression of Zen eh ? What follows is from Dogen's Fukanzazengi :

The Way is basically perfect and all-pervading. How could it be contingent upon practice and realization? The Dharma-vehicle is free and untrammelled. What need is there for concentrated effort? Indeed, the whole body is far beyond the world's dust. Who could believe in a means to brush it clean? It is never apart from one, right where one is. What is the use of going off here and there to practice?

[...]

Need I mention the Buddha, who was possessed of inborn knowledge? The influence of his six years of upright sitting is noticeable still. Or Bodhidharma's transmission of the mind-seal?--the fame of his nine years of wall-sitting is celebrated to this day. Since this was the case with the saints of old, how can we today dispense with negotiation of the Way?

You should therefore cease from practice based on intellectual understanding, pursuing words and following after speech, and learn the backward step that turns your light inwardly to illuminate your self. Body and mind of themselves will drop away, and your original face will be manifest. If you want to attain suchness, you should practice suchness without delay.

[...]

Once you have adjusted your posture, take a deep breath, inhale and exhale, rock your body right and left and settle into a steady, immobile sitting position. Think not-thinking. How do you think not-thinking? Non-thinking. This in itself is the essential art of zazen.

The zazen I speak of is not learning meditation. It is simply the Dharma gate of repose and bliss, the practice-realization of totally culminated enlightenment. It is the manifestation of ultimate reality. Traps and snares can never reach it. Once its heart is grasped, you are like the dragon when he gains the water, like the tiger when she enters the mountain. For you must know that just there (in zazen) the right Dharma is manifesting itself and that, from the first, dullness and distraction are struck aside.

[...]

This being the case, intelligence or lack of it does not matter: between the dull and the sharp-witted there is no distinction. If you concentrate your effort single-mindedly, that in itself is negotiating the Way. Practice-realization is naturally undefiled. Going forward (in practice) is a matter of everydayness.

I may share the Zen from Xuefeng's article with you to have a think tomorrow.

Have to sleep.

Good day.

Jena Wang

[greybeard]

Lovely to see this discussion on going
Love Chris

[xidaijena]

Posted by Clear Light (here)

Oh, no, to the contrary, as I see it, Zazen is precisely the expression of Zen eh ? What follows is from Dogen's Fukanzazengi :

Here we go:

"Zen is the meaning of the heavenly book. There are no words in the heavenly book. You must understand the meaning. Once you break it or say the words, the Zen will be lost. This is not this, which is not that, this old king is not this old king, today Xuefeng is no longer yesterday's Xuefeng, so you can only understand it right now, and it will expire. Someone caught the scene when the peach blossoms were in full bloom. A few days later, he had to take a friend of him to watch the peach blossoms in full bloom. The friend was so excited that he went into the peach forest. The peach blossoms were sparse and the bees and butterflies were sparse. This is called the transition of time, one moment and another moment, and Zen is in that moment. To know Zen, you must understand it in your heart. The real Zen can only know oneself, others don’t know it, just like dreaming. Only oneself sees the dream, and other people don’t know it and cannot prove it to you. It’s impossible to tell others what you have learned about Zen. It can’t be done. There is only one way, and that is to “convey the heart with the heart”. Even if they drink the same glass of water, Zhang San's feeling of drinking it is different from Li Si's feeling of drinking it, because the mentality is different, the demand state is different, and the consciousness is different, so the same food will vary from person to person. In the same sentence, some people were happy when they heard it, some were angry when they heard it, some were enthusiastic when they heard it, and some were discouraged when they heard it. This varies from person to person.

Since Zen is a heavenly book, then may I ask, what is a heavenly book? Where is the heavenly book?

Answer: The heavenly book is a book without words. All things and phenomena are from the heavenly book. In other words, the objective existence is the heavenly book, and the subjective existence is also the heavenly book. Where is the heavenly book? The book of heaven is in your eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, consciousness, and the great world.

Therefore, Zen is the most profound, the most extensive, the most profound, the most accessible, and the most universal book. To learn Zen and to understand Zen is actually to read the heavenly scriptures, the non-character books. A person who can read a book without words is a person who understands Zen. Such a person is a master-level person. Set law, ever-changing, shapeless, shape with fate, is agile and lively, he looks like an old man for a while, a naughty child for a while, a serious talk for a while, a talk and laughter for a while, a peaceful and peaceful for a while, and a combination of strength and softness, with equal emphasis on grace and power. Such a person has actually entered the Tao and attained the Tao. Those with profound attainments are the incarnation of Tao."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Zen, for me, is to read the Nature from my feelings and heart so that I can know how great God is.

[Mashika]

Posted by Clear Light (here)
Oh, no, to the contrary, as I see it, Zazen is precisely the expression of Zen eh ? What follows is from Dogen's Fukanzazengi :

Jesus.. no... There are so many things wrong on this one single statement, i dont even know how to begin explaining...

That's not Zen... In any possible way
Where did you learn these concepts?

Dogen is not Zen, it's Buddhism. This is what i meant by "bastardization" on a previous comment here, something which caused me tremendous frustation and sadness

Please read Jena's comment, and think about it deeply, the answer is therr about what Zen means

[Mashika]

Posted by xidaijena (here)

Posted by Clear Light (here)

Oh, no, to the contrary, as I see it, Zazen is precisely the expression of Zen eh ? What follows is from Dogen's Fukanzazengi :

Here we go:

"Zen is the meaning of the heavenly book. There are no words in the heavenly book. You must understand the meaning. Once you break it or say the words, the Zen will be lost. This is not this, which is not that, this old king is not this old king, today Xuefeng is no longer yesterday's Xuefeng, so you can only understand it right now, and it will expire. Someone caught the scene when the peach blossoms were in full bloom. A few days later, he had to take a friend of him to watch the peach blossoms in full bloom. The friend was so excited that he went into the peach forest. The peach blossoms were sparse and the bees and butterflies were sparse. This is called the transition of time, one moment and another moment, and Zen is in that moment. To know Zen, you must understand it in your heart. The real Zen can only know oneself, others don’t know it, just like dreaming. Only oneself sees the dream, and other people don’t know it and cannot prove it to you. It’s impossible to tell others what you have learned about Zen. It can’t be done. There is only one way, and that is to “convey the heart with the heart”. Even if they drink the same glass of water, Zhang San's feeling of drinking it is different from Li Si's feeling of drinking it, because the mentality is different, the demand state is different, and the consciousness is different, so the same food will vary from person to person. In the same sentence, some people were happy when they heard it, some were angry when they heard it, some were enthusiastic when they heard it, and some were discouraged when they heard it. This varies from person to person.

Since Zen is a heavenly book, then may I ask, what is a heavenly book? Where is the heavenly book?

Answer: The heavenly book is a book without words. All things and phenomena are from the heavenly book. In other words, the objective existence is the heavenly book, and the subjective existence is also the heavenly book. Where is the heavenly book? The book of heaven is in your eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, consciousness, and the great world.

Therefore, Zen is the most profound, the most extensive, the most profound, the most accessible, and the most universal book. To learn Zen and to understand Zen is actually to read the heavenly scriptures, the non-character books. A person who can read a book without words is a person who understands Zen. Such a person is a master-level person. Set law, ever-changing, shapeless, shape with fate, is agile and lively, he looks like an old man for a while, a naughty child for a while, a serious talk for a while, a talk and laughter for a while, a peaceful and peaceful for a while, and a combination of strength and softness, with equal emphasis on grace and power. Such a person has actually entered the Tao and attained the Tao. Those with profound attainments are the incarnation of Tao."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Zen, for me, is to read the Nature from my feelings and heart so that I can know how great God is.

Remember when we talked about how eastern culture has been completelty broken, missinterpreted and completely taken apart just to pick the nice things and fit them to western standars?

This seems like a great opportunity to find out how that works and how it affects what people believe of religions of the east

Very interested in seeing what comes out of this now

[Clear Light]

Posted by Mashika (here)

Posted by Clear Light (here)
Oh, no, to the contrary, as I see it, Zazen is precisely the expression of Zen eh ? What follows is from Dogen's Fukanzazengi :

Jesus.. no... There are so many things wrong on this one single statement, i dont even know how to begin explaining...

That's not Zen... In any possible way
Where did you learn these concepts?

Dogen is not Zen, it's Buddhism. This is what i meant by "bastardization" on a previous comment here, something which caused me tremendous frustation and sadness

Please read Jena's comment, and think about it deeply, the answer is therr about what Zen means

Oh, it seems as if you're suggesting Dogen (the Founder of the Sōtō school of Zen in Japan) wasn't fundamental to the propagation of Zen eh ?

And if it is what you're saying, I'd reply that is as ridiculous as claiming the Dalai Lama has nothing to do with Tibetan Buddhism eh ?

[Mashika]

Posted by Clear Light (here)

Posted by Mashika (here)

Posted by Clear Light (here)
Oh, no, to the contrary, as I see it, Zazen is precisely the expression of Zen eh ? What follows is from Dogen's Fukanzazengi :

Jesus.. no... There are so many things wrong on this one single statement, i dont even know how to begin explaining...

That's not Zen... In any possible way
Where did you learn these concepts?

Dogen is not Zen, it's Buddhism. This is what i meant by "bastardization" on a previous comment here, something which caused me tremendous frustation and sadness

Please read Jena's comment, and think about it deeply, the answer is there about what Zen means

Oh, it seems as if you're suggesting Dogen (the Founder of the Sōtō school of Zen in Japan) wasn't fundamental to the propagation of Zen eh ?

And if it is what you're saying, I'd reply that is as ridiculous as claiming the Dalai Lama has nothing to do with Tibetan Buddhism eh ?

I''m not "suggesting" anything, i'm telling you that you don't know what's going on with all the Dogen stuff

Well i feel sad you don't understand what you just said, and the implications. That he was "Wasn fundamental to the propagation of Zen " doesn't mean much. It only means that it's how your country got to know about it! Your country is not the center of the world, specially not for things like Buddhism and Zen

Apparently, this is once again the "i'm from the west and i learned Zen from some books i read and now i can explain Zen and Buddhism and the difference to eastern people who were born into Buddhist families and have practiced the religion all their lives

I'm sorry did you not even bother to acknowledge and/or reply to Jena's post, as she was very cool about this, unlike me, and even took the time to explain some things to you in a very clear, detailed way

The Dogen Zen you speak up, is not what the original Zen is, is an adaptation to suit it better for westerners, without them having to completely drop their previous beliefs at once.

It was supposed to be an "introduction to Zen and Buddhism" it was never meant to be the end of it all, or the main source of knowledge. In fact Dogen picked up his book and writing from a previous book that existed decades and decades even before he was in the picture. A book from China. Then added to it, he did not even was the original creator of the concept you believe represents "Zen", he added from existing texts both from Buddhism and Zen, created a compilation of "Zen and Buddhism knowledge" and then went to the west and thought it so that people will know about eastern culture. Not as the final "Bible of Zen", just as a way to let them know these things exists!

If you think "Dogen Zen" is true Zen, it is because you don't have more extended education about it. It was never meant to be the what you guys made of it.

It is a shame that you broke it so much, that even his message and purpose in life has been thrown away in the name of assuming you can explain to Buddhists their own religion, when you have only seen like 10% of it so far, based on your own comments here and assuming (or suggesting in part ) Dogen some kind of 'father of Zen'

Not even in Japan he was, because he went to China to learn Buddhism and Zen, and there were other's too, he just happened to be the one that focused on importing the knowledge to the western world

I'm sorry, this is not a conversation i keep going into, your disregard and looking down on what i said, which is almost arrogant in nature, with the "how could you know more than me" attitude, is not something i can deal with right now

Some time ago, I asked people how would they feel if i were to explain their own culture to themselves, and attempt to laugh them out when they would tell me i'm wrong in my misconceptions. They felt offended when i told them i knew more about their culture than them, when i tested them by explaining wrong very common things and making fun of it. And just now, you are doing just the same

I noticed that some people in the west, learn about Buddhism or Zen later in life, or after their are 20/30 or so, and they have a great deal of issues trying to understand the concepts and drop the previous ones. So instead they merge them all into a new thing that doesn't represent either culture. And reject all the original values and concepts and teachings, because it's easier to break them apart and get the things you like, while dropping all the things that are too difficult to understand or grasp.

That's what causes bastardization of cultures. Don't do that!

Anyway, i'm not even supposed to be here, but i made an exception just to post this, as i truly was without words that this was said, with a perfect straight, serious intent

Oh, it seems as if you're suggesting Dogen (the Founder of the Sōtō school of Zen in Japan) wasn't fundamental to the propagation of Zen eh ?

How did you write this word? Sōtō.. Did you copy it from somewhere else? I would just written Soto since my keyboard doesn't have those characters, It comes to mind because you said Dogen, instead of "Dōgen Zenji" or even more correct maybe "Dōgen Kigen" just before writing 'Sōtō'

Zen and Buddhism, the original ones, are completely not influenced by Dogen's Zen, as much as he may have been the found of a school on Japan, in Russia, China and other countries in the east that practice Buddhism, we mostly practice the old, Pre-Dogen religion.. AKA (the original version that wasn't westernized)

Just so you know, you are displacing the original teachings, and replacing them with ones that are easier for you to understand, breaking it all badly. And also, you forgot, or nobody thought you a very primary lesson "That you must forget all your previous understanding and conceptions, and become a blank mind, like a child, so that the true concepts of Buddhism and Zen can enter your mind freely, without preconceptions"

I guess i'm going to have tell my teachers and parents that they wasted the past 20+ years educating me on this, i can't be taken seriously because obviously an "Intro to Zen and Buddhism" book you read in a year or two clearly replaces 20 years of education on it. If i had known, i would have waited until i was 22 and then spend 50 dollars on that book, instead of spending who know how many years learning it all from teachers and sometimes breaking my head bad trying to grasp what they were truly explaining or teaching by "being" and "suffering"

You thinking that because all you know and understand is the small subset Dogen promoted in the western world (as an introduction) you know and can tell other people what Zen is? That's so arrogant and contrary to all Buddhism represents

Instead of listening and attempting to compare our views and understand that we may have other things we've seen than what you have seen (because we were born in Buddhist families and there's have not been a single day when we did not practice it and learned it, since being toddlers) it does look like you will try to nitpick and find anything, even the smallest detail, to try to prove everyone wrong

And that's so pointless, i can't even try anymore

I have to logout and go sleep again, will be not seeing you guys for some time now

I truly hope you give Jena's post a chance, there's a lot of stuff to learn there, even if it seems odd or incompatible to your current views. She's a very experienced Buddhist, way more than a lot of people, she just doesn't speak much about it, but she is. Trust me

Poka Poka

-

Masha

[xidaijena]

Posted by Mashika (here)
I truly hope you give Jena's post a try, there's a lot of stuff there, even if it seems odd or incompatible to your current views, she's a very experienced Buddhist, way more than a lot of people, trust me

Poka Poka

-

Masha

Masha, I believe you had used many brain energy or spiritual energy to reply this post or other post.

Take care.

It may cost your life unless you are very happy or fun to reply every post.

You are wise and seem to read a lot of books? or have many experiences?

I'm not cool. I just share Xuefeng's thoughts and let other to read and think. To be honest, I welcome others to discuss with me but all Chinese people don't know how to discuss such kind "wisdom" from Xuefeng.

I am not a Buddist. I seem to be a Christian. But you are right. all the chanyuan members in the Second Home Community are Buddists. I am the exception. This is why I was Banned by Xuefeng. I like to care others and "bite" some bad thoughts. But Xuefeng doesn't allow me or any chanyuan member to do such kind things...lol

Take care, dear sister. I want to say again.

Hugs to you.

[Mashika]

Posted by xidaijena (here)

Posted by Mashika (here)
I truly hope you give Jena's post a try, there's a lot of stuff there, even if it seems odd or incompatible to your current views, she's a very experienced Buddhist, way more than a lot of people, trust me

Poka Poka

-

Masha

Masha, I believe you had used many brain energy or spiritual energy to reply this post or other post.

Take care.

It may cost your life unless you are very happy or fun to reply every post.

You are wise and seem to read a lot of books? or have many experiences?

I'm not cool. I just share Xuefeng's thoughts and let other to read and think. To be honest, I welcome others to discuss with me but all Chinese people don't know how to discuss such kind "wisdom" from Xuefeng.

I am not a Buddist. I seem to be a Christian. But you are right. all the chanyuan members in the Second Home Community are Buddists. I am the exception. This is why I was Banned by Xuefeng. I like to care others and "bite" some bad thoughts. But Xuefeng doesn't allow me or any chanyuan member to do such kind things...lol

Take care, dear sister. I want to say again.

Hugs to you.

But you are a Buddhist, just like me, at the core, we just don't practice it anymore

I'll say a story about it

I was born into a mixed family, my mom Russian, my dad Japanese. She's an orthodox hard core member, like most of my Russian family. My dad is a very hard ways fixed Buddhist, so imagine growing up on that lol

So i learned both religions at the same time, with very conflicting views and lots of issues. And at around 11 or so, i had way too many questions and i mostly disliked Orthodox church because they did not have answers, or ways to find them on my own, they did not teach me how to "learn from myself", all they wanted me was to follow their rules and be like them, don't question and have blind faith

But Buddhism and Zen showed me a different road, where i can keep growing beyond what a book says, or even not consider the book at all and find more answers in some afternoon sleeping on the floor in the woods. That's what i learned

So i quit Orthodox church, in a very bad way, i was impossible to handle by the preachers and i was 'expelled' one day, 'in shame' they said, but to be, i felt proud

I don't believe in organized religion, but i do believe in God, and i don't think God, or Jesus, even wanted a church like the one that was created, he rejected that, and then i questioned?

Why there is a church when Jesus was very Zen like and avoided that structure and instead went to the rivers and fields and talked to people and eat with them, all equal?

And there was no answer, instead the "father" slapped me and told me i was an horrible child who did not deserve heaven, or something like that, in anger and terrible hate. Because he failed to explain correctly and i had put him in shame in front of the school

I still feel prod about that much, indeed

That's how i know you are too a Buddhist, even if you don't practice it, and you know that Jesus and Buddha, have lots of things in common and are very much compatible in most ways

I don't see much difference between a Buddhist and someone who follows the original Jesus teachings

"Different words, but same teachings and feelings"

Masha, I believe you had used many brain energy or spiritual energy to reply this post or other post.

Never learned how not to, but we're here and impossible to change now, that's how i am

Hugs to you as well!

[xidaijena]

Posted by Clear Light (here)

Dogen is not Zen, it's Buddhism.


Oh, it seems as if you're suggesting Dogen (the Founder of the Sōtō school of Zen in Japan) wasn't fundamental to the propagation of Zen eh ?

And if it is what you're saying, I'd reply that is as ridiculous as claiming the Dalai Lama has nothing to do with Tibetan Buddhism eh ?

Hi Clear Light,

I agree that Dogen is not Zen.

Dogen is preaching the Zen but not the Zen.

Can you understand what I say?

Zen is that nothing can express but only feel in heart.

I think Masha mean, Zen is everything, not only Dogen this person.

We are all in the universe of ZEN.

Like Buddha, he is also preaching the Zen but we can't say Buddha is ZEN.

Hope you can get me.

Have a nice day.

[xidaijena]

Posted by Mashika (here)

Posted by xidaijena (here)

Posted by Mashika (here)
I truly hope you give Jena's post a try, there's a lot of stuff there, even if it seems odd or incompatible to your current views, she's a very experienced Buddhist, way more than a lot of people, trust me

Poka Poka

-

Masha

Masha, I believe you had used many brain energy or spiritual energy to reply this post or other post.

Take care.

It may cost your life unless you are very happy or fun to reply every post.

You are wise and seem to read a lot of books? or have many experiences?

I'm not cool. I just share Xuefeng's thoughts and let other to read and think. To be honest, I welcome others to discuss with me but all Chinese people don't know how to discuss such kind "wisdom" from Xuefeng.

I am not a Buddist. I seem to be a Christian. But you are right. all the chanyuan members in the Second Home Community are Buddists. I am the exception. This is why I was Banned by Xuefeng. I like to care others and "bite" some bad thoughts. But Xuefeng doesn't allow me or any chanyuan member to do such kind things...lol

Take care, dear sister. I want to say again.

Hugs to you.

But you are a Buddhist, just like me, at the core, we just don't practice it anymore

I'll say a story about it

I was born into a mixed family, my mom Russian, my dad Japanese. She's an orthodox hard core member, like most of my Russian family. My dad is a very hard ways fixed Buddhist, so imagine growing up on that lol

So i learned both religions at the same time, with very conflicting views and lots of issues. And at around 11 or so, i had way too many questions and i mostly disliked Orthodox church because they did not have answers, or ways to find them on my own, they did not teach me how to "learn from myself", all they wanted me was to follow their rules and be like them, don't question and have blind faith

But Buddhism and Zen showed me a different road, where i can keep growing beyond what a book says, or even not consider the book at all and find more answers in some afternoon sleeping on the floor in the woods. That's what i learned

So i quit Orthodox church, in a very bad way, i was impossible to handle by the preachers and i was 'expelled' one day, 'in shame' they said, but to be, i felt proud

I don't believe in organized religion, but i do believe in God, and i don't think God, or Jesus, even wanted a church like the one that was created, he rejected that, and then i questioned?

Why there is a church when Jesus was very Zen like and avoided that structure and instead went to the rivers and fields and talked to people and eat with them, all equal?

And there was no answer, instead the "father" slapped me and told me i was an horrible child who did not deserve heaven, or something like that, in anger and terrible hate. Because he failed to explain correctly and i had put him in shame in front of the school

I still feel prod about that much, indeed

That's how i know you are too a Buddhist, even if you don't practice it, and you know that Jesus and Buddha, have lots of things in common and are very much compatible in most ways

I don't see much difference between a Buddhist and someone who follows the original Jesus teachings

"Different words, but same teachings and feelings"

Masha, I believe you had used many brain energy or spiritual energy to reply this post or other post.

Never learned how not to, but we're here and impossible to change now, that's how i am

Hugs to you as well!

Oh my, you are truly a chanyuan celestial!

No wonder we share a lot same in some posts.

I like you, indeed.

Me too. My mother loves me but she only can beat me some for my husband.

Xuefeng never beats me but always writes articles to abuse my arrogant...lol

So we are all lovely creations from the Greatest Creator.

[greybeard]

A course in Miracles quote.
Know that the moment you take up a position, you are identifying with an illusion.

I see it simple after years of following this and that.
Only "God" is and I am that.
Even if I done as yet find that to be my perception.
Language does not do it justice.
Love Chris

[Clear Light]

Posted by Mashika (here)
And also, you forgot, or nobody thought you a very primary lesson "That you must forget all your previous understanding and conceptions, and become a blank mind, like a child, so that the true concepts of Buddhism and Zen can enter your mind freely, without preconceptions"

Ah, instead of saying "blank" I would use the word Empty, because as I'm sure for most reading this thread, it goes without saying that Emptiness and Zen are inseparable eh ?

But to WHO do all these Concepts belong ? The "self", the "ego" is thoroughly deconstructed in Buddhism such that it's in practice, I suggest, when it becomes clear there is no-one at all ... the illusion of a "self" is seen through suddenly ... that's the point of practice eh ?

It's why Zen is absolutely beyond ALL concepts AS it's not concerned with the Contents-of-Mind (as thoughts, perceptions, sensations) as they are ALL empty ... likewise consider HOW the Reflections-in-a-Mirror can never become the Mirror, but what seems to happen (during practice) is there is a sudden "shift" to being the Mirror itself eh ? At least, it's what happens here !

[Mashika]

Posted by Clear Light (here)

Posted by Mashika (here)
And also, you forgot, or nobody thought you a very primary lesson "That you must forget all your previous understanding and conceptions, and become a blank mind, like a child, so that the true concepts of Buddhism and Zen can enter your mind freely, without preconceptions"

Ah, instead of saying "blank" I would use the word Empty, because as I'm sure for most reading this thread, it goes without saying that Emptiness and Zen are inseparable eh ?

But to WHO do all these Concepts belong ? The "self", the "ego" is thoroughly deconstructed in Buddhism such that it's in practice, I suggest, when it becomes clear there is no-one at all ... the illusion of a "self" is seen through suddenly ... that's the point of practice eh ?

It's why Zen is absolutely beyond ALL concepts AS it's not concerned with the Contents-of-Mind (as thoughts, perceptions, sensations) as they are ALL empty ... likewise consider HOW the Reflections-in-a-Mirror can never become the Mirror, but what seems to happen (during practice) is there is a sudden "shift" to being the Mirror itself eh ? At least, it's what happens here !

Attachment 47455

When you had a teacher that influences you much, like Soto people tend to do, and you practice and practice what you were thought, you become equal or more than your teacher

Then the mirror shows who your teacher created

That's why quoting too much the masters and teachers is bad, because you end up becoming a smaller version of them. You never get to write your own Koans, or develop your own thinking, if you always find "the right quote at the right time". That only means you are a diminished version of the teachers, because you will always look for the higher knowledge there, and never completely break apart and find your, higher knowledge

How can someone surpass the master, if all they do is quote his wisdom and writings?

Can a runner go faster than his teacher, if he only listens to the stories of how he won the olympics, and never tries to find better ways to train so that he can go beyond his master's limit?

That's why books are no good after a while, they enclose you mind in a limited set of understandings, the ones your master achieve until he died, after that, if you just keep going through them and repeating the same words, then you are never going to escape it

That's the understanding and values that were shared to me while growing up. Learn all you can from them, understand it and apply it to you, so much that it's in you all the time. Then throw all the words away and never go back and reference or quote them. Then, true discernment and understanding will come your way, because you absorbed their knowledge, but never converted into them, or let them become in their way, you are not a shadow at the feet of the master

---

I was hoping you would have addressed all the historical inaccuracies about Dogen and Soto i posted above, specially about how he actually *never* went to the west or even tried to promote Soto Zen on any western country, or how he died way long before the first westerner ever heard about Zen or Buddhism, but you skipped all over that

When the Soto school started accepting westerners, they did not teach real Zen to the students, and once, i forgot his name, but the first student that tried to import the teachings to the US, asked "why?" the teachers said "It's too difficult for them" or something on those lines?

So it was simplified, and the reason it was too difficult to grasp for western students, is that they never tried to get rid of their preconceptions, and instead always had this mindset of "let's find how this can fit in my already existing culture and knowledge". Which is why it turned terrible bad in lots and lots of ways

When a kid is born, the mind is not empty, it's blank of understanding of the current culture he's living in, but is not "empty". Have you ever seen a kid go to "breathing" or "seeing" class after they were born, so they can learn how to breath or see? They already know, and they breath the correct way, and they 'can see' things for what they are. IF you lose that, then you have to start again some time later in life

That's exactly the same as Buddhism and Zen, the principles are always there, but you have to be a blank in your mind about those understandings. Not empty, because then there is nothing, but no the kind of "no thing" that Zen is about. A person who can't breath on their own and needs a respirator, is "empty" of their consciousness, therefore they 'don't know how to breath' anymore. But a person who forgets how to breath from the chest, immediately starts breathing from the stomach, like a baby, because it was there all along, they just forgot they knew how

There are no more Zen Masters, since very long ago, is it because there can't, or "there must not be more"

If your teacher dies without reaching enlightenment, can you look at where he failed and find how to overcome it? Or are his words sacred and immutable. If you can't say "i know why and i have a way to overcome it" then you are inside orgnized religion, where the words are sacred and more important than reaching the final goal of Nirvana. If you going to keep repeating the 'sacred words' forever and set your mind to the idea that you must respect and never try to shame or overcome the master, then you also will never be enlightened

So, are the no more Enlightened Masters because there can't be a new one, or because 'there must not be a new one'?

The last master died without placing new masters, and since the only way to become a master is by a previous master ordering you into that level, then "there are no masters anymore", so how we would get a new master? Only by overcoming the last one. Who ordered the first master into that position?

That's the difference between organized religion and Zen, if you are going to follow rules and guidelines and never attempt to go beyond what the sacred writings offer, then you will also never reach enlightement, or be a master, which completely defeats the purpose of being a Buddhist in the first place...

You can only read 'the book' so many times, what's next?

Anyway, another long post, sorry about it

I truly truly going to have to leave you guys for a while, so this now is my final post for some time

Take care and good bye

-

Masha

[greybeard]

ARCHBISHOP Carlo Maria Viganò - listen to what he says

https://www.bitchute.com/video/vcn9wfPDIWzB/

[greybeard]

Bhagavad Gītā Chapter 11 | Vision of the Universal Form


Chapter 11 of the Bhagavad Gītā in Sanskrit with text in transliteration and English translation; Krishna reveals His Divine Form to Arjuna
[N.B 16:59 there is a pronunciation error, it should be prakīrtyā (not prakrītyā)]

The beautiful book of the Bhagavad Gita I am using is from https://www.vediccosmos.com


This video is sponsored by Pushpa Khatri and it is dedicated with love to her nephews Ashutosh & Kush Khatri

🎵produced by Auburn Jam Music, UK

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=TiLduVH8PGQ

[greybeard]

Meditation with an authentic photo of Mahavatar Babaji

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=-PsQE3SotWs