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    Scotland Avalon Member Ewan's Avatar
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    Default Sociopaths

    I found a site this morning that has lots of interesting reading, including a variety of comments. I had tended to view the word Sociopath very negativley, it seems I have been wrong to do so. Some sociopaths work hard at doing the right thing where they can by following a set of adopted guidelines.

    A FAQ: http://www.sociopathworld.com/p/freq...questions.html

    Homepage: http://www.sociopathworld.com/

    Quote Jeffery Martin studied something he labeled PNSE - "religious experience", "mystical experience" across various faiths/communities and practices. It included Christians, Buddhist meditators, etc. What is PNSE - persistent nonsymbolic experience.

    Most people aren't that happy. They're always thinking about things, typically in a self-referential way, and those thoughts color the rest of your experience. By the time you've reached this sentence, you've probably thought something like, "I'm happy, this doesn't apply to ME", "why should I continue reading this? I'm bored." "What was that noise?", etc.

    Most peoples' lives is dominated by thinking. They don't notice it. Thinking is symbolic (words) and typically self-referential and negative. E.g. "I'm fat", "I'm bored", "I'm not doing this well", "I got a smaller piece than him." Thinking gets them to do stuff. It also colors how they relate to information - you tell me anything and I'll be thinking "do I really need to pay attention to this?" and "is this going to make things better for me?"

    The typical person has some story about himself or herself. Nobody can see the story - it just exists in peoples' minds. As a social nicety, we "go along" with peoples' stories. The typical person takes his story very seriously, despite the fact that the story usually makes them unhappy. Rather than feeling joyful and grateful to have the life that we have, we typically nurse grudges, fear the inevitable, get sad about our personal failures, etc. None of those stories are real; there's just whatever is happening right now. And they happen automatically - when and what isn't up to the you that experiences them. If you are sitting around experiencing your unhappy thoughts about you and your life, that's what is going on now for you, but that doesn't make the stories real, true, etc.

    When people have a PNSE, they have, for an extended period of time, a different way of relating to their thoughts, especially their thoughts about themselves. They might have fewer thoughts or they might not seem important. The experience is like an extended "flow" experience. There are several different types (locations) of PNSE, they aren't all the same. Some people might report a constant sense of divine presence (or connection to nature). Others might not. Pretty much all of them report that they are less neurotic; well-being is high. People typically make sense of their experience in the context of their religion (if any). E.g. Buddhists would make sense of it in terms of Buddhism, Christians in terms of Christianity.

    Regular flow experiences are profound - e.g. people get addicted to sex, rock climbing, shoplifting, etc because when they do those things, they have to focus and they temporarily get relief from their thinking (symbolic experience). Drugs and alcohol can also provide relief from thinking.

    The typical "mystical experience" is like a flow experience, but on steroids. Christians talk about the holy spirit entering in them (e.g. "God ran my life, not me"). Here's a Scientologist (at 12 minutes in) talking about his experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHb0BZyF5Ok In addition to feeling joy there might be a noeitic sense -- "THIS IS IMPORTANT". It is the sort of experience that gets people to give their money to a cult - as Jason Beghe did after he had that experience. These sorts of experiences often lead to people diving in, trusting other people, giving them money, etc.

    Why is it is important? Imagine your whole life you've been obsessed with your career, competing with your peers and so on. You're unhappy because nothing is ever enough. If suddenly you stopped thinking about that and you had an extended period of time where thoughts about your personal story (you deserved more, they betrayed you, you got ignored) didn't cross your mind, you'd be a lot less miserable. If it kept on happening, you might realize that all along you'd thought you were one thing (a person competing with others) but that story wasn't true - it didn't define you - just because it kept crossing your mind. If also you don't feel connected to your body in the same way, it would seem profound.

    So when they look at the brains of psychopaths and meditators, they sometimes find similarities -- the psychopaths, when they are doing tasks are focused. There's not a lot of thinking unrelated to the task. Perhaps this is why psychopaths don't get bothered about wrecking their lives, or those of people around them - they don't ruminate. They keep busy. When I read your piece here - http://www.sociopathworld.com/2015/1...hip-story.html - recently it occurred to me that that might have happened; your thinking (about yourself) might have increased. I remarked that maybe you've got more of a sense of self, and hence more problems - which fits Martin's research: when people do practices that fit them, they get results quickly - e.g. a week. When they do practices that don't fit, they typically get more neurotic/unhappy. That "sense of self" (the thinking) can wax and wane, along with it the happiness/unhappiness.

    People have a lot of beliefs about PNSE. Eg Many Buddhists seem to think a person post-PNSE wouldn't be immoral or unkind. Martin didn't find evidence of that - if you are a dishonest person, you'll probably be dishonest after your PNSE. I've had a PNSE and I'm still amoral and selfishly impulsive.

    Christians (and other religions) tend to emphasize what Martin calls location 3. There's a sense of divine presence and high joy. If people move from location 3 into location 4 (which can happen randomly), the joy goes away along with the sense of divine presence, and they can get freaked out -- because their subjective experience isn't aligned with what their religion says is supposed to happen. E.g. it looks like something like that happened to mother Theresa: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/08...e-letters.html That can be really confusing; say you believe Galatians 5:22, and you did have a lot of love and joy (and a sense of divine presence - "walking with the Lord") - but one day it goes away completely. You might think you did something wrong.

    There's a bunch of other stuff Martin found - e.g. arousal (excitement) fades, even if people are still experiencing PNSE. Some methods work better than others. Some religions only incorporate some of the 6 practices they found that worked; be born in the wrong tradition and you probably won't have a PNSE.

    My own experience - I've had a PNSE. I suspect Martin would classify mine as location 4 (although I guess I experienced some other locations). Location 4 fit with the practices I'd done (meditation & self-inquiry) and my subjective experience: noticing over and over again that I don't control my thoughts, feelings, etc -- they just happen, moment-by-moment. It isn't clear how I get my body to do anything, say anything, etc - I might think about it and it does it. Or more typically I just notice my body doing stuff after it has started. I definitely don't feel identical with my body. There's a sense of not being contained within a body - similar to what Jason Beghe describes in that video above. I've noticed that my unhappiness always seems related to thinking about "me" and the world or other people - and these thoughts are automatic. Even if I do something well and experience the feeling of pride, it feels mechanical -- there's the noticing I did something well and then perhaps a warm feeling washes through my head, along with the thought that I should try to avoid letting it show. I've seen psychologists use the word "depersonalization" to talk about this stuff. I suspect I'm less narcissistic and more sociopathic; I don't believe my story. I hold my opinions lightly. I don't care as much about my accomplishments (or failures) - they aren't me, nor up to me. And to the extent I do or don't care, that's not up to me either.

    After having had my PNSE I wanted to make sense of it. I really liked Martin's evidence-based approach. A lot of what he discusses fits my personal experience, so I give it more weight. One thing he talks about it is that someone might have a PNSE in location 4 and then not have anyone to talk to about it -- not even your spiritual teachers, who might be in location 2. They might be freaked out if you talk to them about your experience; they might think things have gone way off track. This is like being a psychopath; if you are honest with people about how you experience reality, they can get bothered, blame you, etc. because what you're saying sounds so inhuman.

    Any of your readers doing meditation, prayer, etc might want to look and see what can happen if they happen to hit upon a practice that works for them, or if they just happen to experience a shift of consciousness. When it happens to people randomly (which it does), people tend to think they are going crazy. If they go to psychologists they likely won't be understood - which reminds me of my own experience telling psychologists about my impulsiveness, amorality, habitual manipulation, lack of empathy, etc.

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    Avalon Member Flash's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    I have studied sociopathy quite a lot and I truly do not understand why you would link some kind of "spiritual" experience with sociopathy.

    Sociopath do not have these kinds of experiences usually. They are very down to earth, thinking about themselves, and copying empathetic behavior while not having it. They often do have charisma.

    From one of the texts you are referring to, having no attachment to what is going on is an experience lived by both, sociopaths and spiritual realisation, well, believe me, these are not the same at all. A sociopath does not care, it is not detachment, it is the lack of care for anything other than themselves (even if they imitate care very well in order to get or achieve something). A sociopath is NOT ABLE to care, he does not have the neuronal pathways allowing for care.

    Depressive people will not be attached to events and even not care at times either, because they are depressed, not because they are incapable of it. Spiritual awareness is detachment but with care and love. The end results are completely different.

    Confusing sociopathy with spiritual evolution is the ultimate of what a psychopath can do!!! lolllll "I can be a sociopath, but in fact I am more develop than the rest of you spiritually" "so I can look detach, and say I am spiritual" the ultimate sociopathic trick. Please give me a break!!

    Sociopaths are at the top of the human hierarchy and are destroying the planet actually. They are not spiritually evolved, on the contrary, they are evolution misfits. No hiding behind spirituality - this does not drive at all past me.

    One marking point of sociopath is the lack of or quite reduce emotions and the need to feel thrill, in order to feel alive. Stealing, robbing, killing are the ultimate thrill of the deep non functional psychopath. For the functioning sociopath, the thrill will be more in line with living in society, such as harassing, manipulating (and controlling someone), financial embezlement, etc.
    Last edited by Flash; 8th January 2016 at 14:13.
    How to let the desire of your mind become the desire of your heart - Gurdjieff

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    Avalon Member Pam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    Quote So when they look at the brains of psychopaths and meditators, they sometimes find similarities -- the psychopaths, when they are doing tasks are focused. There's not a lot of thinking unrelated to the task. Perhaps this is why psychopaths don't get bothered about wrecking their lives, or those of people around them - they don't ruminate. They keep busy. When I read your piece here - http://www.sociopathworld.com/2015/1...hip-story.html - recently it occurred to me that that might have happened; your thinking (about yourself) might have increased. I remarked that maybe you've got more of a sense of self, and hence more problems - which fits Martin's research: when people do practices that fit them, they get results quickly - e.g. a week. When they do practices that don't fit, they typically get more neurotic/unhappy. That "sense of self" (the thinking) can wax and wane, along with it the happiness/unhappiness.

    I found this really interesting. The comparison of sociopaths and meditators. If a sociopath is not ruminating and distracted by all kinds of thoughts the result could easily be more mental clarity and a greater ease of staying present and in the moment. I guess that would be the upside to being a sociopath. This does not address the other characteristics of being a sociopath that may not be considered as positive.

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    Avalon Member Carmody's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    Spirituality is about evolving beyond -through total integration- of the biological path in evolution.

    Sociopaths are ensconced within the biological interface... but do not deal with the limits of the biological interface, with regard to the emotional limits of damage to known individuals and the whole of humanity. No 'empathy'. A wrecking ball with no feedback.

    Spiritualists who have evolved... still have empathy and can integrate with said empathy... but it does not overcome them, or breach their logic. They have made it past it's overarching influence on logic and thought formation. But they still understand and abide by it's imperatives, it's reasons for being.... and respect that.... in individuals who have not made such passage.

    The sociopath (and psychopath), for the most part, knows and understands none of this, but is generally understood to still be in the grasp of desire, fear, and lust ----as the more probable and fundamental biological driving forces. No love, no empathy, no fundamental understanding or connection to the forces that bind humanity into a form of semi-blind cohesive whole.

    This forms the core of the danger to humanity...and the need to cut out, wholesale, the influence of sociopaths and psychopaths from the flow and motion of humanity's overarching influential structures. (such as religion, finance, politics, and so on).

    As the globe reaches it's breaking point, humanity can afford the sociopath and psychopath position and place ---no more.

    This forms the heart of the current semi-hidden conflict, the desire by some to drastically reduce the world population, but to still remain in charge, to be the sociopath and the psychopath still in charge, in the backdrop..still running humanity's overarching structures, to remain like a hidden parasite.

    Some are blind to this reality, some see it plain as day.

    Basically put, if we don't fix it, we get this:

    https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1035925

    We will get some version of it, due to inertia and flow, but it's intensity and level of influence is the real arm-wrestling point in this whole emergent scenario.

    They say that when a person dies of old age, approx 50% of their body mass can be of foreign origin, ie not human DNA origins -- bacterial and parasitical/symbiotic origin.

    As above - so below...... in this ongoing flow.

    To win or to lose, is an and point. A death, a unchanging finality. Finality, lack of change, zero differential.... is a dead thing.

    Life exists in the differences, and the range of difference is the expression of potential. In both life on this globe and universe/dimension thing, down to the idea and reality of what an atomic particle is ----in relation to another atomic particle.
    Last edited by Carmody; 8th January 2016 at 15:08.
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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    I see the transhumanist agenda as an outgrowth of sociopathy. They don't even want to accept their own biology. What better way to play at being a god?

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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    This is episode 7 season 3 from "Down The Wormhole" Narrated by Morgan Freeman. I found it to be very up to date and informative.

    Researchers are uncovering the hidden forces that inflame our inner demons, looking for ways to neutralize the source of evil in the brain. Methods include learning impulse control and stimulating altruism. But can psychopaths who lack empathy be helped?


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    Avalon Member Flash's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    This video is very interesting. It says that sociopaths can have empathy, when it serve their purpose. Therefore, the problem would be located elsewhere. Then they mention that we have natural guidelines morality embedded in us for most of us. But it is fragile. And can be stomped on by the environment. Every act in the brain is on a distribution curve (bell curve) not all brains being the same on any particular behavior.

    One of the scientist talks about brain accidents or tumors that may change your behavior - and this is true, from my own research, it could happen. It does happen. They do experiment with brain training on criminal offenders. This change their decision path and will do better decisions (albeit, i am not sure they will get to be really more empathetic, they are just learning to behave for their best interest in society). Although I do think if you correct some anomalies like brain cysts, you may have some sociopath cured.

    They describe which areas are turned off in psychopaths. A psychopatic mind being quite different.

    However, there is also a genetic difference, this means genetically transmitted difference, in some psychopaths or sociopaths. To me, these are the real culprit of sociopathy. These are the ones at the top of the hierarchy because not only do they have genetic psychopathy, but also environmental reinforcement of psychopathic behavior, coming from being raised by their psychopatic parents.

    I do think that something else is involved, in parts in other layers of the human being that are not physical per se, and in parts with the heart activation literally. That cannot be felt by psychopaths and sociopaths, because they do not have the right wiring in the brain to receive the information.

    It is said that people are getting less violent because they are getting smarter, IQ having steadily increase in the last century for example. Possibly.... I do think that people are also getting smarter in terms of emotional intelligence and therefore do not want more war for example. The whole race would be evolving, spiritually as well, through sensing better realities. And training ourselves towards it.

    If you look at the research done at the Heart Math Institute, you will see that the heart has 60 times more electromagnetism as the brain and that the heart has neurons, albeit not self conscious,and that the heart is connected to the brain directly, meaning that change in heart rate for example affect the brain directly. The loop back and forth is quite strong. Emotions have a direct impact on the heart, quiet the heart, the brain gets quieter.

    If you look also at the experiences of spiritually develop people, other ways of seeing life are involved as well, but on the opposite of psychopaths, the whole brain lighting up, instead of having dead parts like psychopaths. I do think the spiritual development enhance the use of hte brain, but comes from other layers of the being that are not physical 3D per se.

    Carmody once wrote that passed and IQ of 200, the need for incarnation in these human bodies is gone (probably too primitive). That may have some pull here, for the future. As long as the 200IQ plus is balanced, otherwise, we end up with people running the world quite badly.
    How to let the desire of your mind become the desire of your heart - Gurdjieff

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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    I have been wondering a long time about the attached.

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/so...nerology14.htm

    Any and all thoughts welcomed

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    Scotland Avalon Member Ewan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    I have studied sociopathy quite a lot and I truly do not understand why you would link some kind of "spiritual" experience with sociopathy.
    Hi Flash. I'm not sure if you have confused me with the writer of the article as you said 'why you would link', perhaps you meant 'why 'someone' would link'?

    All I said was it made for interesting reading, and subsequently wondered if it were true that some sociopaths could adopt morals from an outside source, (ie. religous codes), and live their life by them. If that were the case then I would be wrong to view all sociopaths under the same umberella.

    I'm frequently trying to point out to people in conversation, (when it leans that way), how our current system encourages the rise of sociopaths and psychopaths to positions of power so I'm well aware of your subsequent points.

    What further intrigued me was how the writer, Jeffrey Martin, could think there was a parallel between the experiences, and briefly wondered whether he may tend to the sociopathic side of the scale himself - or it was just a problem of the scientific mindset in general, where they're good at focusing in on the small and often missing the larger picture, the gestalt.

    So yeah, the thread was to promote a discussion on Sociopaths and the different ways they think, and, conjointly, are all sociopaths truly alike. Apologies if I failed to make that clear.

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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    yes you are right, i did mean someone, sorry for the miswriting - if you want to promote a discussion of their ways of thinking and their similarities/dissimilarities, i am all for it. Quite a few thread on this forum about this too. But much advance on the science side of it in the latest years, so a pick up on this could be interesting.

    As for the author, Jeffrey Martin, if he wonders about being on the sociopathic side of the scale, it may be, who knows. As for missing the larger picture, the gestalt, I do not think scientist miss on that. The gestalt, the shape it takes, would be different depending on the origin of the sociopathic behavior (brain tumor, accident, genetics for example). However gestalt resulting behavior would be quite similar in certain cases.

    Quote Posted by Ewan (here)
    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    I have studied sociopathy quite a lot and I truly do not understand why you would link some kind of "spiritual" experience with sociopathy.
    Hi Flash. I'm not sure if you have confused me with the writer of the article as you said 'why you would link', perhaps you meant 'why 'someone' would link'?

    All I said was it made for interesting reading, and subsequently wondered if it were true that some sociopaths could adopt morals from an outside source, (ie. religous codes), and live their life by them. If that were the case then I would be wrong to view all sociopaths under the same umberella.

    I'm frequently trying to point out to people in conversation, (when it leans that way), how our current system encourages the rise of sociopaths and psychopaths to positions of power so I'm well aware of your subsequent points.



    What further intrigued me was how the writer, Jeffrey Martin, could think there was a parallel between the experiences, and briefly wondered whether he may tend to the sociopathic side of the scale himself - or it was just a problem of the scientific mindset in general, where they're good at focusing in on the small and often missing the larger picture, the gestalt.

    So yeah, the thread was to promote a discussion on Sociopaths and the different ways they think, and, conjointly, are all sociopaths truly alike. Apologies if I failed to make that clear.
    How to let the desire of your mind become the desire of your heart - Gurdjieff

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    Avalon Member Flash's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    Quote Posted by justntime2learn (here)
    I have been wondering a long time about the attached.

    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/so...nerology14.htm

    Any and all thoughts welcomed
    Quote The Metaphysical Significance of Bloodlines

    Because soul nature and genetics are coupled, the metaphysical significance of bloodlines becomes clear.

    Bloodlines are characterized by concentrations of specific genetic traits passed down through generations. Correspondingly, souled members of that bloodline share common metaphysical characteristics, suggesting that bloodlines provide the physical vehicle for the implementation of metaphysical goals requiring multiple generations to accomplish.

    Thus there exist a variety of bloodlines, each with unique metaphysical predispositions. While some are altruistic and noble in nature, others exist to engage in parasitical elitism and are genetically biased toward successful psychopathy.

    In that case, nonsouled members would have a high probability of being actively psychopathic. Among its souled members, most incarnate to optimally continue their malevolent agendas, while a few deviate and use their acquired abilities for the better. By genealogically tracing bloodlines and correlating them with historical data, one can determine the fundamental destiny of its descendents.

    For example, it is well known that US presidential candidates with the strongest royal lineage become elected.




    Diffusion of Psychopathic Bloodlines

    Due to crossbreeding, many bloodlines transcend racial boundaries and are not geographically isolated.

    An exception would be royal lineages where active measures are taken to keep the bloodline pure and geographically concentrated. Nevertheless, the important point is that branches of bloodlines biased toward psychopathy inevitably diffuse into the general population and exist in all races.

    This implies several things.
    First, it shows that not only is racist prejudice morally repugnant, but it is also logically flawed because its obtuse criteria falsely condemns the innocent among the hated race and excuses the virulent bloodlines within the favored race. For example, the Nazis condemned the entire Jewish people as subhuman psychopaths when only a few non-semitic bloodlines passing themselves off as Jews justified this claim; there were equal concentrations of psychopathic bloodlines within the caucasian race itself, obviously overlooked by the Nazis due to the blind favoritism of their ideology.

    Second, unless a bloodline is geographically isolated or physiologically unique, it is impossible to identify psychopaths by these traits alone. The purpose of identification is not to persecute them, but to identify such behavior when it occurs and understand why it happens.
    The success of psychopaths depends heavily upon others excusing their action with rationalizations built on false assumptions.

    For instance, a nonsouled psychopath may abuse his wife and after she leaves him, he may promise change and use sweet words to appear remorseful. The false assumption is that this person is capable and willing to change for the better. In truth, he is incapable of feeling empathy or remorse and fakes these qualities to perpetuate his manipulations.

    Understanding the physical and metaphysical basis of human behavior allows one to avoid making such false assumptions and see through false guises that would otherwise appear as genuine.
    these above could be quite interesting to explore under many angles: societal: power structures, politics, money handling. Personal, one's genetic, family entrainment, etc. Secret: satanism, free masons, black ops, etc and even ETs: creating bloodlines to better service them for example.

    Thanks for posting this link.
    How to let the desire of your mind become the desire of your heart - Gurdjieff

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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    Quote Posted by Ewan (here)
    I found a site this morning that has lots of interesting reading, including a variety of comments. I had tended to view the word Sociopath very negativley, it seems I have been wrong to do so. Some sociopaths work hard at doing the right thing where they can by following a set of adopted guidelines.

    A FAQ: http://www.sociopathworld.com/p/freq...questions.html

    Homepage: http://www.sociopathworld.com/

    Quote Jeffery Martin studied something he labeled PNSE - "religious experience", "mystical experience" across various faiths/communities and practices. It included Christians, Buddhist meditators, etc. What is PNSE - persistent nonsymbolic experience.

    Most people aren't that happy. They're always thinking about things, typically in a self-referential way, and those thoughts color the rest of your experience. By the time you've reached this sentence, you've probably thought something like, "I'm happy, this doesn't apply to ME", "why should I continue reading this? I'm bored." "What was that noise?", etc.

    Most peoples' lives is dominated by thinking. They don't notice it. Thinking is symbolic (words) and typically self-referential and negative. E.g. "I'm fat", "I'm bored", "I'm not doing this well", "I got a smaller piece than him." Thinking gets them to do stuff. It also colors how they relate to information - you tell me anything and I'll be thinking "do I really need to pay attention to this?" and "is this going to make things better for me?"

    The typical person has some story about himself or herself. Nobody can see the story - it just exists in peoples' minds. As a social nicety, we "go along" with peoples' stories. The typical person takes his story very seriously, despite the fact that the story usually makes them unhappy. Rather than feeling joyful and grateful to have the life that we have, we typically nurse grudges, fear the inevitable, get sad about our personal failures, etc. None of those stories are real; there's just whatever is happening right now. And they happen automatically - when and what isn't up to the you that experiences them. If you are sitting around experiencing your unhappy thoughts about you and your life, that's what is going on now for you, but that doesn't make the stories real, true, etc.

    When people have a PNSE, they have, for an extended period of time, a different way of relating to their thoughts, especially their thoughts about themselves. They might have fewer thoughts or they might not seem important. The experience is like an extended "flow" experience. There are several different types (locations) of PNSE, they aren't all the same. Some people might report a constant sense of divine presence (or connection to nature). Others might not. Pretty much all of them report that they are less neurotic; well-being is high. People typically make sense of their experience in the context of their religion (if any). E.g. Buddhists would make sense of it in terms of Buddhism, Christians in terms of Christianity.

    Regular flow experiences are profound - e.g. people get addicted to sex, rock climbing, shoplifting, etc because when they do those things, they have to focus and they temporarily get relief from their thinking (symbolic experience). Drugs and alcohol can also provide relief from thinking.

    The typical "mystical experience" is like a flow experience, but on steroids. Christians talk about the holy spirit entering in them (e.g. "God ran my life, not me"). Here's a Scientologist (at 12 minutes in) talking about his experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHb0BZyF5Ok In addition to feeling joy there might be a noeitic sense -- "THIS IS IMPORTANT". It is the sort of experience that gets people to give their money to a cult - as Jason Beghe did after he had that experience. These sorts of experiences often lead to people diving in, trusting other people, giving them money, etc.

    Why is it is important? Imagine your whole life you've been obsessed with your career, competing with your peers and so on. You're unhappy because nothing is ever enough. If suddenly you stopped thinking about that and you had an extended period of time where thoughts about your personal story (you deserved more, they betrayed you, you got ignored) didn't cross your mind, you'd be a lot less miserable. If it kept on happening, you might realize that all along you'd thought you were one thing (a person competing with others) but that story wasn't true - it didn't define you - just because it kept crossing your mind. If also you don't feel connected to your body in the same way, it would seem profound.

    So when they look at the brains of psychopaths and meditators, they sometimes find similarities -- the psychopaths, when they are doing tasks are focused. There's not a lot of thinking unrelated to the task. Perhaps this is why psychopaths don't get bothered about wrecking their lives, or those of people around them - they don't ruminate. They keep busy. When I read your piece here - http://www.sociopathworld.com/2015/1...hip-story.html - recently it occurred to me that that might have happened; your thinking (about yourself) might have increased. I remarked that maybe you've got more of a sense of self, and hence more problems - which fits Martin's research: when people do practices that fit them, they get results quickly - e.g. a week. When they do practices that don't fit, they typically get more neurotic/unhappy. That "sense of self" (the thinking) can wax and wane, along with it the happiness/unhappiness.

    People have a lot of beliefs about PNSE. Eg Many Buddhists seem to think a person post-PNSE wouldn't be immoral or unkind. Martin didn't find evidence of that - if you are a dishonest person, you'll probably be dishonest after your PNSE. I've had a PNSE and I'm still amoral and selfishly impulsive.

    Christians (and other religions) tend to emphasize what Martin calls location 3. There's a sense of divine presence and high joy. If people move from location 3 into location 4 (which can happen randomly), the joy goes away along with the sense of divine presence, and they can get freaked out -- because their subjective experience isn't aligned with what their religion says is supposed to happen. E.g. it looks like something like that happened to mother Theresa: http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/08...e-letters.html That can be really confusing; say you believe Galatians 5:22, and you did have a lot of love and joy (and a sense of divine presence - "walking with the Lord") - but one day it goes away completely. You might think you did something wrong.

    There's a bunch of other stuff Martin found - e.g. arousal (excitement) fades, even if people are still experiencing PNSE. Some methods work better than others. Some religions only incorporate some of the 6 practices they found that worked; be born in the wrong tradition and you probably won't have a PNSE.

    My own experience - I've had a PNSE. I suspect Martin would classify mine as location 4 (although I guess I experienced some other locations). Location 4 fit with the practices I'd done (meditation & self-inquiry) and my subjective experience: noticing over and over again that I don't control my thoughts, feelings, etc -- they just happen, moment-by-moment. It isn't clear how I get my body to do anything, say anything, etc - I might think about it and it does it. Or more typically I just notice my body doing stuff after it has started. I definitely don't feel identical with my body. There's a sense of not being contained within a body - similar to what Jason Beghe describes in that video above. I've noticed that my unhappiness always seems related to thinking about "me" and the world or other people - and these thoughts are automatic. Even if I do something well and experience the feeling of pride, it feels mechanical -- there's the noticing I did something well and then perhaps a warm feeling washes through my head, along with the thought that I should try to avoid letting it show. I've seen psychologists use the word "depersonalization" to talk about this stuff. I suspect I'm less narcissistic and more sociopathic; I don't believe my story. I hold my opinions lightly. I don't care as much about my accomplishments (or failures) - they aren't me, nor up to me. And to the extent I do or don't care, that's not up to me either.

    After having had my PNSE I wanted to make sense of it. I really liked Martin's evidence-based approach. A lot of what he discusses fits my personal experience, so I give it more weight. One thing he talks about it is that someone might have a PNSE in location 4 and then not have anyone to talk to about it -- not even your spiritual teachers, who might be in location 2. They might be freaked out if you talk to them about your experience; they might think things have gone way off track. This is like being a psychopath; if you are honest with people about how you experience reality, they can get bothered, blame you, etc. because what you're saying sounds so inhuman.

    Any of your readers doing meditation, prayer, etc might want to look and see what can happen if they happen to hit upon a practice that works for them, or if they just happen to experience a shift of consciousness. When it happens to people randomly (which it does), people tend to think they are going crazy. If they go to psychologists they likely won't be understood - which reminds me of my own experience telling psychologists about my impulsiveness, amorality, habitual manipulation, lack of empathy, etc.
    Sounds like psy-ops to me.
    Just another way to "Con-fuse" people and have them "Con-form" to yet another agenda.
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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    I am another avalon member who has given a lot of thought to sociopathic and psychopathic behaviour simply because the world is so clearly controlled by these kinds of people. As far as I am concerned, Obama, Hillary Clinton, Merkel, Cameron and most other world leaders are in reality clinical sociopaths who pretend to have empathy for their citizens when, in fact, this is simply learned behaviour.

    We know that sociopaths do not have the normal empathy genes so it is entirely possible that these genes and traits were intentionally removed from certain human strains by the Annunaki in order to implement the control of Earth's ruling elite (refer to Z.Sitchin). According to Sitchin and others, the Annunaki genetically modified homo sapiens some 200,000 years ago and interbred with them (refer to Nephilim, giants, etc). So it seems entirely possible that these genes were removed to facilitate their control of humanity as a slave race (refer to Babylonian money magic). The Annunaki had lifetimes that lasted thousands of years and so they would definitely have thought in terms of control over millenniums and not just centuries. This would explain the importance of the ruling bloodlines that followed interbreeding with the Annunaki and the likelihood that pure bloodlines (aka "blue bloods") are sociopathic in nature (refer to David Icke).
    Our destiny is in our hands. Let us visualise a world of truth, freedom and equality.

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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    I got quite into this topic a few years ago. I was fascinated by that site ...sociopathworld that is mentioned in the OP. In fact when I saw the thread title I was going to contribute that site to the discussion.

    One day in my healing journey I discovered my inner sociopath. This unintegrated aspect of me thought it was amusing to sabotage things in my life... it would sit back and laugh as I struggled. It was while I was doing soul retrieval work that this shady aspect was revealed. With the practitioners help we created a space in my heart just for the inner sociopath ... when I asked what this part needed to be happy the response surprized me. What it wanted was a room... a quiet and zen-like room... with NOTHING hassling or disturbing it. When I put 'my inner sociopath' in this room ... the relief that came from it was palpable. When I asked this aspect what it's gifts were the answer came 'order and objectivity'. After so many years of unconsciously rejecting this aspect of myself, it felt so peaceful to finally have it onboard and working with me rather than against me. (I know this probably sounds crazy top some .... but this type of work really works for me).

    Anyway when I extended out from myself to contemplate the sociopath in the wider world. It came to me that the sociopath does have a place and a gift in relation to the whole ... the thing is that in a distorted world based on fear, selfishness and greed it makes sense that the sociopath rises to the top and acts as a destructive force. But if the sociopath could be shown in no uncertain terms that love is logical (right now we tend to see love as week and whimsical) and strong ... a sociopath would naturally fall into line and become a valuable asset to the whole. So in my opinion until we shift from a fear-based to a love based paradigm the sociopath will remain a serious problem.

    I hope this makes sense to some

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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    This is a very interesting though complicated topic. So many posters have made some really important points.

    I have had decades of experience within spiritual groups, and I have seen a lot of strangeness.

    I have seen spiritual teachers who claimed to have, and seemed to have, attained a high degree of "enlightenment," however in hindsight, I would absolutely say that these teachers were sociopaths.

    I have seen spiritual seekers who were deeply dedicated to their spiritual practices, who, in hindsight, I would say were in a state of very unhealthy psychological dissociation.

    I have seen spiritual seekers who, through deep and intense thinking and meditation achieved only a scary psychotic break, not enlightenment.

    And I also dated a man who, I eventually came to recognize, had some kind of autism that I could not understand or categorize - he had a very strong sense of morals, but he had absolutely no empathy at all. If others were unkind to him, he was deeply hurt, but if he said something outrageously unkind to others, he completely could not comprehend why they would be hurt and refused to acknowledge the possibility that he had hurt anyone. I could not call this sociopathy, and yet he was far from "normal." It was eventually intolerable for me.

    For all that we know about the brain, it is still very mysterious. Where does sociopathy reside? Does it really reside in the brain? I think it is important to broaden the possibilities. Just like with medicine, we are coming to understand that, as in epigenetics, we inherit so much more than what is contained in the physical, quantifiable DNA. And also, what actually happens in meditation? Does it affect only the brain or some other part of us we are not aware of and therefore not protecting?

    I recently read that empathy means "feeling together" with someone else. Their feelings become your feelings and/or your feelings become theirs. This causes bonding and triggers compassion. Scientists say this happens through mirror neurons in the brain. But are sociopaths simply brain damaged? Do they really have no choice? Something inside of me resists that explanation. To cause terrible harm and not be held accountable is appalling.

    Perhaps meditation and psychology are both psy-ops. I have been deeply immersed in both, and the more I learn and inquire inside, the more I wonder about this. There are too many experts telling us their supposed truths.

    Sorry for the rambling post - not very coherent. I think that it's important to think outside the box and come up with perhaps an entirely new way of looking at the whole thing. Such an important topic, what with sociopaths basically seeming to run the world at this point.

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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    Quote Posted by enfoldedblue (here)

    <snip>
    Anyway when I extended out from myself to contemplate the sociopath in the wider world. It came to me that the sociopath does have a place and a gift in relation to the whole ... the thing is that in a distorted world based on fear, selfishness and greed it makes sense that the sociopath rises to the top and acts as a destructive force. But if the sociopath could be shown in no uncertain terms that love is logical (right now we tend to see love as week and whimsical) and strong ... a sociopath would naturally fall into line and become a valuable asset to the whole. So in my opinion until we shift from a fear-based to a love based paradigm the sociopath will remain a serious problem.

    I hope this makes sense to some
    That latter paragraph sounded very plausible and well worth further consideration, thank you.



    Quote Posted by ErtheVessel (here)
    Sorry for the rambling post - not very coherent.
    Join the club; I almost always end up rambling, (I can see so many interconnected issues and don't know how to fit them all in), as I am typing a lot slower than I think. :D

    Interesting points, thanks.

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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    Carmody once wrote that passed and IQ of 200, the need for incarnation in these human bodies is gone (probably too primitive). That may have some pull here, for the future. As long as the 200IQ plus is balanced, otherwise, we end up with people running the world quite badly.
    To clarify, that I can say that I 'see', through the application of logic and analysis, that there appears to be little point to being physical, with regard to the idea of the planet and dimensional space.....to being physical and in this realm as an incarnate..when the given person reaches a threshold area of what might be considered to be approximately an IQ of 200.

    Meaning...a balanced IQ of 200, not some savant peak areas with fantastical mathematical skills but precious little else. Such savant peaks, off balance as they can be, are generally dangerous as they lack contextual balancing points in view and reach of understanding. Ie, incomplete knowledge -- without wisdom.

    The fun and whatnot might remain, but lessons in a 'reality context' would largely have ceased to have impactful context for the 200IQ individual. At which point one would require to tread softly, lest one trample other's dreams.

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    But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
    I have spread my dreams under your feet;
    Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

    W. B. Yeats

    The sociopath and the psychopath who are successful, in the modern context of this monied world, could be considered to be of a peak point in their 'intelligence', due to the stripping away of emotional pathways the average person has....that bond the body and ego to a semiconscious veiled life walk and motion..... thus the psychopath and sociopath walk and move through the human world without context or wisdom, so they trample all in front of them, they trample all in their path.

    The world has filled and evolved to the point that there is no more allowance for their behaviors and actions, and those who understand this.... and have allowed things to be, are now required to step in and make the move to mitigating such influences in the earthly world. (those who are here with such faculties, they can do as they please [choice abounds], but this one considers the idea of some form of integrational activities)

    That humanity, as group, must evolve to the understanding of this sociopath and psychopath influence, as hidden as it may be, and prevent it's further/continued actions.. from this point on.

    This is, for the most part, something that humanity -in the individual and collective- must achieve on it's own; otherwise... there is precious little point - no depth of meaning or fundamental within the outcome.
    Last edited by Carmody; 10th January 2016 at 17:35.
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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    Quote Posted by ErtheVessel (here)
    This is a very interesting though complicated topic. So many posters have made some really important points.

    I have had decades of experience within spiritual groups, and I have seen a lot of strangeness.

    I have seen spiritual teachers who claimed to have, and seemed to have, attained a high degree of "enlightenment," however in hindsight, I would absolutely say that these teachers were sociopaths.

    I have seen spiritual seekers who were deeply dedicated to their spiritual practices, who, in hindsight, I would say were in a state of very unhealthy psychological dissociation.

    I have seen spiritual seekers who, through deep and intense thinking and meditation achieved only a scary psychotic break, not enlightenment.

    And I also dated a man who, I eventually came to recognize, had some kind of autism that I could not understand or categorize - he had a very strong sense of morals, but he had absolutely no empathy at all. If others were unkind to him, he was deeply hurt, but if he said something outrageously unkind to others, he completely could not comprehend why they would be hurt and refused to acknowledge the possibility that he had hurt anyone. I could not call this sociopathy, and yet he was far from "normal." It was eventually intolerable for me.

    For all that we know about the brain, it is still very mysterious. Where does sociopathy reside? Does it really reside in the brain? I think it is important to broaden the possibilities. Just like with medicine, we are coming to understand that, as in epigenetics, we inherit so much more than what is contained in the physical, quantifiable DNA. And also, what actually happens in meditation? Does it affect only the brain or some other part of us we are not aware of and therefore not protecting?

    I recently read that empathy means "feeling together" with someone else. Their feelings become your feelings and/or your feelings become theirs. This causes bonding and triggers compassion. Scientists say this happens through mirror neurons in the brain. But are sociopaths simply brain damaged? Do they really have no choice? Something inside of me resists that explanation. To cause terrible harm and not be held accountable is appalling.

    Perhaps meditation and psychology are both psy-ops. I have been deeply immersed in both, and the more I learn and inquire inside, the more I wonder about this. There are too many experts telling us their supposed truths.

    Sorry for the rambling post - not very coherent. I think that it's important to think outside the box and come up with perhaps an entirely new way of looking at the whole thing. Such an important topic, what with sociopaths basically seeming to run the world at this point.
    Psychotic breaks, near insanity, losing your fecal, etc, all that is part of going clear.

    The trick is to know that this mind unraveling is going to happen..... and to not make the ego and body driven attempt to grab any floating bits in that given ocean of dissolution....and to allow the reformation of self around the coming bits of clarity.

    In those coming bits of clarity, not have the body and ego again attach fundamental import to the new bits, as if they are ultimate truths....as they are not.

    They are merely components, signposts, on a path... which is the whole point. The path, not the body seeking continuance through veiled and colored thinking through ego expression communications.

    This is why the Buddhists, for example (others do the same), only deal with or work with those who appear in front of them, of their own accord. And, that they generally, teach one-on-one, as the breakdown that occurs must be handled as an individual situation. It is a very difficult and dangerous time for anyone who attempts it, and not knowing that it is transitory, riddled with decaying and breaking bits of psyche in the process of breakdown and reformation, this can create seeming madness and an inability to ever get it back together again, at a given higher and more complete plateau.

    This is why you don't need, in such attempts, drugs and modern psychiatry, as both are off course from where one is headed. Very far off course, as the psychiatry and drugs are an attempt to take people back to a societal structure and median that no long exists in them.
    Last edited by Carmody; 10th January 2016 at 17:27.
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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    In this context it seems like we're talking about sociopathy from the point of an overly-logical person who has wholly repressed their emotions, turning their logic into a cutting force rather than structural aspect of their thought-proccess.

    I am curious if their is a definition of social pathology that deals with the reverse balance of someone who has repressed their logic and is wholly invested in empathic interaction. Or is this the general goal? Does this lead to mania?

    Right now I feel these two are opposing scales and the real thing we're dealing with is a vertical "growth" between them that is layered in with ego, conditioning and actual self but not wholly invested in either side of the scale.

    It seems like variations of this balance actually unfold into the gradient of personality types and that the vertical scaling is a bit akin to wisdom in any given one of them.

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    Default Re: Sociopaths

    ErtheVessel, Your post is very coherent and thank you for it.
    From my view, some mantras, maybe a large portion of them, are manipulative and can easily be called psy-op (-tical). They activate a frequency and like frequencies finds each other. I am in great like with sound, Naad. I developed a phonetic system years ago that is very accurate in teaching eastern language and this usually means those sound systems called "sacred". However, I would not call them sacred at all, but I would call them connections with the unseen, those within and those seemingly without. Some of those connections may be unwanted if we knew of their power to affect us thru the chunt (yes, it sounds "chunt" as in the football "punt", not chant as in ant, the little critter on the ground).

    This may seem off-topic, but from my viewpoint it is deeply connected....
    My advice is that you invent your own sound system, prayer, chant by studying the meanings of those words and their variations. However, again, I would be leery of accepting anyone else's interpretations of those sounds, including mine, even if I have done much study and have much experience of these sounds. Each sound is relative to you and your experience and in that connective singularity it is up to only you to determine their value. This may be why, when I shared what I had developed as a system of correct enunciation, pace and listening that I was excited to hear what a student's interpretations were. Always an insight there. The point here is that I have seen some dark psychopaths and sociopaths, like you have, in the field teaching meditative techniques, for whatever gain they may have had.

    So, in this context and relative to the thread "Horus-Ra as the Archonic Alien Parasite" we must consider just what we are calling up from outside of normal consciousness and into our system, as triggers for possible sociopathic and even psychopathic influences. I have never considered any of those fields of study into the human condition; brain chemistry, emotional states, environmental factors, societal conditioning, etc. and "spiritual" perspective as separate. In any discussion on sociopathy and psychopathy all things involved should be discussed, evaluated.

    Some chunts seem to be very pure in their meaning and intent. Many healing systems, in their effectiveness and purity of intent, use sound systems to heal, or to activate the healing system within. I have experienced this often.

    I have some reasons, based on experience, why I do not chunt/chant some muntruhs. In one case, while a yogi was in his body form and now, while he is not, I and some close friends don't use one common chunt to call up that psychopath.

    I once did it in his presence and he stopped a class, looked at the back of the class where I was mentally thinking the chunt and yelled at me "Next time you call me up, have something to say". No one but an awesome, heart-centered seer friend of mine standing next to me, knew what that was about. Because I was not there for some ego-centric yogi's manipulation I never used it again. I invented my own.....To this day when another friend is teaching a real unadulterated form of kundalini yog he never uses that chunt to start his class which, of course, all of those other "certified" k.y. teachers are "certified" to do. Also as a matter of clarity I call the kundalini yoga taught by most westerners the "K.Y. JELLY of Up Yours Yoga. Please do know where that finger is going and, most importantly, Clean up appropriately when your energies are expended and you wake your ass up." There may have been an unwelcome psychopath up there....)
    Last edited by Hym; 10th January 2016 at 21:04.

  40. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Hym For This Post:

    Chester (11th January 2016), ErtheVessel (10th January 2016), Ewan (12th March 2023), Hervé (10th January 2016), justntime2learn (10th January 2016)

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