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Thread: Trump is NOT the answer

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by 42 (here)
    Quote Posted by chrifri (here)
    Quote Posted by 42 (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Zamolxe (here)

    So I would like to know.. concretely, what makes you consider Trump as a savior figure?
    I do appreciate your very civil question. The best simple answer may be this:

    As I've posted several times, it's not because of who he is. It's because of who he's not.

    I'd encourage you (or anyone else!) to read my two long and detailed personal Q&A posts here, quite carefully. There's a lot of information there.
    1. #1182 (20 November)
    2. #1207 (21 December)
    Bill - a very civil reply i hope...i so far have tried to resist commenting on this topic as I am not a US citizen and I fundamentally despise politics, as politics is typically service to self (the politician) not service to others (the citizens).

    Obviously government is essential to keep a country running, however...politics and politicians are different from government in that they are an unnecessary and tribal distraction; as this forum is witnessing!

    You have posted several times that your position is that "it's because of who he's not". Patently, yesterday and for the last 4 years Trump has demonstrated that "what he is not" is fit for office.

    Across the world, leaders have united in stating their dismay at his deplorable destruction of democracy. Republicans and Democrats alike are calling for his immediate removal from office. After Trump running a toxic 19 month campaign for election, US voting citizens made the choice to vote him in. Their choice came home to roost yesterday.

    What Trump "is not" is fit for office. 25th amendment now.
    Dear 42
    I am not a Trump fan and never was. I am not US citizen and, as you, did resist so far to comment on this topic. I am completely in agreement with your comment regarding politicians and their self service.

    Nevertheless I have a few questions regarding your comment
    1. What happened yesterday that showed us that Trump is not fit for office? Have I missed something?
    2. Do you really believe that it is important what the World leaders state? After all, as you correctly mentioned, politics and politicians are typically for self service. Is it more important what the World leaders state or does it matter what the majority of voters voted for? (although not being a Trump fan I have no doubt at all that there was massive fraud and that the election was stolen)
    3. Why do you believe that Trump is not fit for office? Do you believe Biden is fit for this task?

    personally I believe that most politicians are not fit for office. Especially all those being interested mostly in self service only and all those that probably are corrupt or compromised (maybe most of them)

    In that sense, most of Sakers comments on the following link, seem to be correct
    http://thesaker.is/mind-blowing-hypocrisy/
    1. He clearly encouraged demonstrators to march and used inflammatory language that is inconsistent with discouraging violence
    2. When a large number of world leaders ( former US allies who Trump has deliberately distanced with his America first policies) see the situation the same way (unacceptable and provocative) it is a data set worth considering
    3. I make no claims that Biden is a better choice. I do claim, however, that Trump has done nothing to bring his country or his former allies to a better more harmonious alignment. He is a divider not an aligner. Disruptive, narcissistic and delusional to boot. I don't drink his Koolaid.
    Thanks 42
    To 1. Do you have any video evidence that he did that? I am asking because in the video I saw he clearly told his followers to keep peace and to go home.
    2. Word leaders as Macron who is clearly acting against his people. Merkel who, as Macron acts absolutely against Germans, Boris who keeps his people in prison (although at home) and others, all 100% globalists. None of them acting in our favor. Do all those leaders that work against the people have moral ground to state anything?
    3. I am not sure if being in alignment with other self serving leaders is good or not. In any case, in my opinion it does not matter if we like Trump or not or if the world leaders are for Trump or not, what matters is the people that have voted form him and what matters are rigged elections.
    Although I am not pro Trump I do honestly believe that the other choice 4 years ago would have been very bad for all of us and I must say that I truly believe that Biden is not really good news.

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    Finland Avalon Member rgray222's Avatar
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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    First and foremost Donald Trump is not a politician, this one fact alone makes him appealing to a lot of people. Secondly, his wealth gives him some immunity from what many politicians want which is power and wealth. Trump supporters live under no misapprehension of who Donald Trump is; they fully understand that he is antagonistic, confrontational, and that he embellishes all the time. They simply accept these character traits and knew about them before they ever cast a ballot. Several of these characteristics are positive attributes, not negative. Nobody thinks that Trump is a savior but they think he is good for the world. Above all, with Trump, it is NOT business as usual.
    • One of the main reasons many people support Trump is because he is against wars that have been raging in the middle east for over 20 years. Politicians on both sides constantly find reasons to keep these wars going.
    • Trump support freedom for people in every way possible, freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom from censorship etc.
    • The citizens of the USA were told that they would never see a growth rate above 3 percent. They called it the new normal. He proved that they were lying.
    • People were sarcastically told that Trump would need a magic wand to create jobs especially manufacturing jobs. He either had a wand or proved that they were lying.
    • Trump created an economy pre-COVID with historically low unemployment rates for blacks, Latinos, women.
    • Small business ownership by minorities increased by almost 400% prior to Covid restrictions decimating the economy.
    • Trump is in favor of robust immigration but legal immigration. Both parties caused the immigration problem and both parties refused to fix it. A wall was the only solution available.
    • Americans watched in horror as politicians negotiated horrible trade deals around the world. The Chinese Trade deals were disastrous and NAFTA and CAFTA equally bad. We were told by politicians that they would be good for the country. Then Americans watched as millions upon millions of jobs moved to China, Mexico, and elsewhere around the world.
    • Americans watched as Obama shipped $150 Billion dollars to Iran in two unmarked military airplanes. No comment needed
    • Americans watched in horror as Obama signed a nuclear deal with the Iranians which gave them a clear path to nuclear weapons after 10 years. Even his own party and the media were outraged when it happened.
    • Trump promised that he would take on the terrorist and he has. People understand he will never get rid of them but he has destroyed their power base and diminished their numbers.
    • Trump removed the USA from the Paris Climate Accord that has been deemed a dismal failure even by the UN.
    • He is not afraid to take on the mainstream media who have been delivering untruthful news for many years. I am sure you know but the reason he uses Twitter is to bypass the media and speak directly to the public.

    There are many other reasons that people support Trump and these are just a few that come to mind but I don't think we are ever going to go back to business as usual. Politicians have wondered for a long time how far they could push the silent majority before they would speak up and they have found out.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    First off, they are not the silent majority, Trump lost the popular election in both 2016 and 2020.

    Second off, there are hundreds of thousands of dead people who would not agree with you that this man has done anything other than a horrible job. Some deaths from Covid were inevitable. But we have done by far the worst in the world in dealing with the pandemic. We did that because your wonderful shake people up and not censor idiot campaigned against mitigation and hired a jackass from Hoover Institution with a plan to get everyone infected and let god sort it out.

    Now he has tried to overthrow the peaceful transfer of power by force and violence. He needs to go to Florence ADX like any other terrorist. He's killed far more people than Osama bin Laden, and his traitor friends in the Congress and the Capitol Police need to face charges. Insurrection isn't legal nor permitted by the Constitution.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by rgray222 (here)
    First and foremost Donald Trump is not a politician,
    If I graduate police academy then I am now a cop; if I graduate medical school, then I am now a doctor.

    And if I win a presidential election? Then I am now a politician.

    DJT is now a hard nosed politician, I can't possibly imagine a credible argument against this.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Quote Posted by rgray222 (here)
    First and foremost Donald Trump is not a politician,
    If I graduate police academy then I am now a cop; if I graduate medical school, then I am now a doctor.

    And if I win a presidential election? Then I am now a politician.

    DJT is now a hard nosed politician, I can't possibly imagine a credible argument against this.
    I agree ... Trump is a politician, so was Bush Jr (skull and bones member - part of a crime family), Arnold Schwarzenegger (bodybuilder / actor), Jesse Ventura (entertainment wrestler / actor), etc.

    Being a politician, isn't necessarily any badge of honour - any clown or corrupt criminal can be a politician. But I will say that a politician and a leader are not the same things - let us not confuse those two terms.
    When you are one step ahead of the crowd, you are a genius.
    Two steps ahead, and you are deemed a crackpot.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote He passed an executive order that basically banned it from the government and any company that contracts from the government. So, while Mike may have given up some clarity for the sake of brevity, I think the statement that Trump "defunded CRT" is not unfair to say.
    And is this also a shorthand for the "sake of brevity"? He signs executive orders, he does not pass them. That's a very important distinction. He has had zero input from Congress or the Court (the other two branches of government) when he signs an executive order. In fact, he's not allowed to do executive orders having to do with funding at all, except in a declared emergency. Even the Senate, a branch of Congress, is not allowed to do funding by themselves, all bills or provisions having to do with funding must start in the House of Representatives per the Constitution.

    So what he did was sign either a meaningless piece of paper for show to dupe people who don't keep track of how the government works, or he asserted that the country is in a state of emergency because of critical race theory.

    Which was it? Because while I'm not CRT's biggest fan, there is no way that its existence constitutes a national emergency.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Hi Zamolxe,

    I am quite far from anything that could be called controversy or debate, and far too curious to understand that I do not want to know the course of correlations in this "cosmic wedding of worldly events."

    Because in the light of any antithesis between two phenomena, the central panel of the design between a perfectly practically confirmed concordance, the objective nature of the perception and the reflective justice could lead to as many argumentative antinomies as aspects and perspectives ...
    So between "I don't like Biden" and "Why Trump is considered a savior", apart from the question you asked, did you manage to find the answer?
    Because this is really a place for any rational debate, and the concrete factual events of the world really affect people.
    If everything leads to hope, when you look at a loaded weapon, what's the difference?
    And all this to be just human.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    I think people like him for different reasons, but those that see him as a 'savior' tend to be those that are newly waking up to some ugly truths in the world ~ child trafficking, corrupt political system, globalist controllers, war mongering, etc... meanwhile, here comes Trump. There are some stark contrasts between him and basically anyone else in politics (that gained any traction). He addressed the aforementioned issues directly, hitting the nail on the head. He also projected the notion of increased prosperity, that never hurts. I mean, to be fair, it could have been anyone with some juice/swagger/pull/inserttermhere talking about draining the swamp, stopping the globalists, ending wars, standing up for the little guy... putting some extra change in your pocket even -- this gave people HOPE - and thus, he was propelled onwards and upwards. Makes perfect sense to me, anyway. What do we all want fixed anyway? I think everyone can agree that getting rid of all the corrupt politicians/controlling parties and their atrocious mechanisms of gaining money and power would be absolutely great for humanity. If anyone presents the prospect of being able to put events in motion that will accomplish this - they are going to be revered by many.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by Grey Brain (here)
    I think people like him for different reasons, but those that see him as a 'savior' tend to be those that are newly waking up to some ugly truths in the world ~ child trafficking, corrupt political system, globalist controllers, war mongering, etc... meanwhile, here comes Trump. There are some stark contrasts between him and basically anyone else in politics (that gained any traction). He addressed the aforementioned issues directly, hitting the nail on the head. He also projected the notion of increased prosperity, that never hurts. I mean, to be fair, it could have been anyone with some juice/swagger/pull/inserttermhere talking about draining the swamp, stopping the globalists, ending wars, standing up for the little guy... putting some extra change in your pocket even -- this gave people HOPE - and thus, he was propelled onwards and upwards. Makes perfect sense to me, anyway. What do we all want fixed anyway? I think everyone can agree that getting rid of all the corrupt politicians/controlling parties and their atrocious mechanisms of gaining money and power would be absolutely great for humanity. If anyone presents the prospect of being able to put events in motion that will accomplish this - they are going to be revered by many.

    I completely agree that if a "political" candidate starts talking about all those things ("child trafficking, corrupt political system, globalist controllers, war mongering, the notion of increased prosperity, draining the swamp, stopping the globalists, ending wars, standing up for the little guy"), people would... and should... start paying attention to him, as he might be a good choice.

    The point of this thread is to figure out when do we start practicing critical thinking and start discerning empty rhetoric from clear actions. I keep hearing the same lines "people like him because he spoke against...".
    Is that all that takes to become president? Just have rallies and speeches in which you attack the most populist issues... and then take absolutely no actions towards those goals?

    It's been 4 years, more than enough time to hold him accountable and see what he's done.

    What has he done against the deep state?

    Regarding not starting wars, please see my earlier post:
    Quote Posted by Zamolxe (here)
    Regarding not starting wars - I do agree, but he did come close with Iran.

    And here is a list of actions that don't really show him as anti-war:

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by rgray222 (here)
    First and foremost Donald Trump is not a politician, this one fact alone makes him appealing to a lot of people. Secondly, his wealth gives him some immunity from what many politicians want which is power and wealth. Trump supporters live under no misapprehension of who Donald Trump is; they fully understand that he is antagonistic, confrontational, and that he embellishes all the time. They simply accept these character traits and knew about them before they ever cast a ballot. Several of these characteristics are positive attributes, not negative. Nobody thinks that Trump is a savior but they think he is good for the world. Above all, with Trump, it is NOT business as usual.
    • One of the main reasons many people support Trump is because he is against wars that have been raging in the middle east for over 20 years. Politicians on both sides constantly find reasons to keep these wars going.
    • Trump support freedom for people in every way possible, freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom from censorship etc.
    • The citizens of the USA were told that they would never see a growth rate above 3 percent. They called it the new normal. He proved that they were lying.
    • People were sarcastically told that Trump would need a magic wand to create jobs especially manufacturing jobs. He either had a wand or proved that they were lying.
    • Trump created an economy pre-COVID with historically low unemployment rates for blacks, Latinos, women.
    • Small business ownership by minorities increased by almost 400% prior to Covid restrictions decimating the economy.
    • Trump is in favor of robust immigration but legal immigration. Both parties caused the immigration problem and both parties refused to fix it. A wall was the only solution available.
    • Americans watched in horror as politicians negotiated horrible trade deals around the world. The Chinese Trade deals were disastrous and NAFTA and CAFTA equally bad. We were told by politicians that they would be good for the country. Then Americans watched as millions upon millions of jobs moved to China, Mexico, and elsewhere around the world.
    • Americans watched as Obama shipped $150 Billion dollars to Iran in two unmarked military airplanes. No comment needed
    • Americans watched in horror as Obama signed a nuclear deal with the Iranians which gave them a clear path to nuclear weapons after 10 years. Even his own party and the media were outraged when it happened.
    • Trump promised that he would take on the terrorist and he has. People understand he will never get rid of them but he has destroyed their power base and diminished their numbers.
    • Trump removed the USA from the Paris Climate Accord that has been deemed a dismal failure even by the UN.
    • He is not afraid to take on the mainstream media who have been delivering untruthful news for many years. I am sure you know but the reason he uses Twitter is to bypass the media and speak directly to the public.

    There are many other reasons that people support Trump and these are just a few that come to mind but I don't think we are ever going to go back to business as usual. Politicians have wondered for a long time how far they could push the silent majority before they would speak up and they have found out.
    Thanks for your reply,

    I'll give you my opinion on the points you raised:

    First of all,

    Quote Posted by rgray222 (here)
    his wealth gives him some immunity from what many politicians want which is power and wealth.
    Even if he is a billionaire, it doesn't mean that he doesn't have to work extra hard to keep his wealth and not lose it. The more money you have, the easier it is to fail (see all his bankruptcies and all the huge loans he has and cannot currently pay off - see Deutsche Bank issue)

    Also, he didn't act this way during his 4 years in office with his multiple conflicts of interest - government officials and special interest groups being hosted at trump hotels and his golf clubs. Overcharging the secret service and officials for their stay at his properties. Having Qatari, Kuweiti and Saudi delegations repeatedly organize events at his hotels, placing huge amounts of money in his pockets. Basically, they bought his influence with direct payments.

    Remember the time he kept pushing to hold the G7 summit at a Trump resort?
    "Legal experts debated whether hosting the G7 at a Trump-owned property would violate the Constitution's emoluments clauses."
    Eventually, after all the criticism, he had to back down and host it at Camp David.

    If you would really care about being "different" than all the swamp creatures, you would try do divest from your companies and not link ANY state activity with your business.

    But he did exactly the opposite.
    Last edited by Zamolxe; 8th January 2021 at 09:20.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Regarding his economic achievements, I can't disagree that the economy was going well, and kept growing.

    But how much of that is Trump's merit and how much of it is just the normal constant growth?

    Look at this graph and tell me:

    Click image for larger version

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    "
    Referring to the manufacturing sector, Trump said, "I brought back 700,000 jobs." By contrast, Trump said, under President Barack Obama and Vice President Joe Biden, Trump’s 2020 opponent, "They brought back nothing."
    The actual rise prior to the coronavirus pandemic was about 450,000 manufacturing jobs. (If you do account for the recession prompted by the pandemic, which is not advisable since the economy is so volatile at the moment, manufacturing employment has declined by 237,000.)

    The situation under Obama is trickier to parse.

    During Obama’s entire tenure in the White House, manufacturing employment fell by 192,000. Keep in mind, though, that Obama inherited the Great Recession. A fair comparison between Trump and Biden excludes both recessions.

    From the low point of the recession in 2010, the manufacturing sector added 916,000 jobs on Obama’s watch. That was roughly seven years, about twice the amount Trump’s been in office, so on an annual basis, the manufacturing employment gains per year were roughly similar between the two presidents. In fact, you can see in the chart that the pace of increase was fairly constant for Obama’s final seven years and Trump’s first three years."


    Again, would like to point out that I do not consider Obama any better than Trump, just comparing apples with apples.





    Also, regarding the economy, you do know that he enacted a huge corporate tax cut during his tenure. Which of course will give a boost to the economy.

    But that lead to a huge increase in the deficit and debt.

    Avalon used to have all these discussions about the US debt, and how that is a bad thing. Did that all change in the past years?

    "The U.S. national debt has ballooned under the administration of President Donald Trump, increasing by nearly $7 trillion in less than four years."

    "Less than a week after Treasury Secretary Mnuchin repeated the fanciful claim that the Trump tax cuts of 2017 would pay for themselves, the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) proved him wrong. If tax cuts actually paid for themselves, they would reduce deficits based on faster revenue growth that comes from faster economic growth. Deficits immediately shot up after the 2017 supply-side tax cuts. And CBO forecasts that those deficits will continue to stay high for the foreseeable future. This is the opposite of tax cuts paying for themselves. "

    "Federal spending by the Trump administration is around 6.6 percent higher than it was before he took office, equating to around $255 billion."

    You know... he is fueling growth with debt, a debt that your children will have to pay...


    Leaving this graph here regarding growth:

    Click image for larger version

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Another point you bring up is Iran.

    "First of all, former President Barack Obama didn’t give “150 billion in cash” to Iran.

    The nuclear agreement included China, France, Germany, Russia, the United Kingdom, the United States and the European Union, so Obama didn’t carry out any part of it on his own. The deal did lift some sanctions, which lifted a freeze on Iran’s assets that were held largely in foreign, not U.S., banks. And, to be clear, the money that was unfrozen belonged to Iran. It had only been made inaccessible by sanctions aimed at crippling the country’s nuclear program."

    Also, the deal PREVENTED Iran from enriching Uranium, guaranteeing constant inspections of their nuclear facilities.

    After he unilaterally tore up the deal:

    "As of now, Iran is enriching uranium up to 4.5%, in violation of the accord's limit of 3.67%. Experts say Iran now has enough low-enriched uranium stockpiled for at least two nuclear weapons, if it chose to pursue them."

    "Iran confirmed on Tuesday it is now enriching uranium to 20 per cent purity, well beyond the threshold set by its 2015 nuclear deal with major powers, sparking international concern."


    So basically we have to thank Trump for pushing Iran into a corner and allowing them to get weapons-grade uranium. Quite the opposite of what you listed.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Also, one more point regarding the military, as Ernie mentioned this before as one of his accomplishments:

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    He modernized the armed forces.
    I used to believe that the members of Avalon were mostly against "US militarism".

    And how is giving the military industrial complex a huge bonus considered an anti-deep state move?

    "President Donald Trump approved a colossal defense bill Friday that authorizes a topline of $738 billion for fiscal year 2020."

    "Trump is blasting the military-industrial complex. But he's one of its biggest boosters."

    Again... we come back to the same point Rhetoric vs actions
    Last edited by Zamolxe; 8th January 2021 at 10:00.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    "The total number of minds in the universe is one." - Erwin Schrödinger

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Zamolxe,

    Hmmm honestly I'm confused because I thought I commented on a thread asking why he was considered saviour... did that thread get merged with a similar thread that is asking a different question? I wasn't saying MY views, I was just saying why I thought people see him as a saviour... I don't partake in that line of thought myself\

    Mod note from Bill:

    Yes, the threads were merged, as the themes were very similar.
    EDIT after Bill's edit:

    Understood, just wanted to clarify as my comment didn't quite make sense/seemed slightly off topic to Zamolxe unless it was understood that the question I was responding to was 'why is Trump savior'.
    Last edited by Grey Brain; 8th January 2021 at 15:04.

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Yes indeed, it seems to have been merged. The topic of my thread was to gather evidence that showed why he is considered a savior. Never have I started presenting arguments out of the blue on why "Trump is NOT the answer"

    All I posted were counter arguments to what people posted on that thread as to why Trump was viewed highly.
    As some posts were factually and objectively wrong, I saw it fit to present the actual facts and not let disinformation be unchecked.

    Unfortunately, now that thread will be buried from view. It is what it is...

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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by Zamolxe (here)
    Yes indeed, it seems to have been merged. The topic of my thread was to gather evidence that showed why he is considered a savior. Never have I started presenting arguments out of the blue on why "Trump is NOT the answer"

    All I posted were counter arguments to what people posted on that thread as to why Trump was viewed highly.
    As some posts were factually and objectively wrong, I saw it fit to present the actual facts and not let disinformation be unchecked.

    Unfortunately, now that thread will be buried from view. It is what it is...
    Right, and just for further clarification: I was only addressing 'why people view him as Saviour', not saying the actions took place (but some did, to be fair)

    Quote Posted by Zamolxe (here)
    The point of this thread is to figure out when do we start practicing critical thinking and start discerning empty rhetoric from clear actions. I keep hearing the same lines "people like him because he spoke against...".
    Is that all that takes to become president? Just have rallies and speeches in which you attack the most populist issues... and then take absolutely no actions towards those goals?
    Well depends who 'we' is. For everybody to critically think and exercise discernment, we have a hard never. Not everyone. Human nature.

    I agree with your overall sentiment, as long as you apply it evenly across the board. I think it would be interesting to look at his words/actions compared to other contemporary presidents and world leaders. When relatively speaking, I don't think it's as bad as some at all, but again I have never voted and probably never will, I have never trusted any of it, so I did not pay as close attention. I don't feel like I could actually get a firm enough grasp on all related happenings to really properly assess this anyway.

    Now my personal view, as long as we have a bunch of nothing being done by everyone - I can appreciate certain intentions being openly stated as there is power in that of itself. That being said, it has been used to further division and to delegitimize aspects of real problems (as has QAnon, etc ~ cointelpro style) but still... if it is business as usual anyway, might as well have 'down with the corrupt political system and globalists' blaring on the loudspeakers. No he is not going to save everyone, he is not the answer, etc... I think humanity collectively coming together once it gets bad enough will be the answer. I've learned the hard way all my life that only YOU can save YOURSELF.
    Last edited by Grey Brain; 8th January 2021 at 15:25.

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  24. Link to Post #1258
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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Quote Posted by Grey Brain (here)
    Quote Posted by Zamolxe (here)
    Yes indeed, it seems to have been merged. The topic of my thread was to gather evidence that showed why he is considered a savior. Never have I started presenting arguments out of the blue on why "Trump is NOT the answer"

    All I posted were counter arguments to what people posted on that thread as to why Trump was viewed highly.
    As some posts were factually and objectively wrong, I saw it fit to present the actual facts and not let disinformation be unchecked.

    Unfortunately, now that thread will be buried from view. It is what it is...
    Right, and just for further clarification: I was only addressing 'why people view him as Saviour', not saying the actions took place (but some did, to be fair)

    Quote Posted by Zamolxe (here)
    The point of this thread is to figure out when do we start practicing critical thinking and start discerning empty rhetoric from clear actions. I keep hearing the same lines "people like him because he spoke against...".
    Is that all that takes to become president? Just have rallies and speeches in which you attack the most populist issues... and then take absolutely no actions towards those goals?
    Well depends who 'we' is. For everybody to critically think and exercise discernment, we have a hard never. Not everyone. Human nature.

    I agree with your overall sentiment, as long as you apply it evenly across the board. I think it would be interesting to look at his words/actions compared to other contemporary presidents and world leaders. When relatively speaking, I don't think it's as bad as some at all, but again I have never voted and probably never will, I have never trusted any of it, so I did not pay as close attention. I don't feel like I could actually get a firm enough grasp on all related happenings to really properly assess this anyway.

    Now my personal view, as long as we have a bunch of nothing being done by everyone - I can appreciate certain intentions being openly stated as there is power in that of itself. That being said, it has been used to further division and to delegitimize aspects of real problems (as has QAnon, etc ~ cointelpro style) but still... if it is business as usual anyway, might as well have 'down with the corrupt political system and globalists' blaring on the loudspeakers. No he is not going to save everyone, he is not the answer, etc... I think humanity collectively coming together once it gets bad enough will be the answer. I've learned the hard way all my life that only YOU can save YOURSELF.

    Just to be clear, I am for holding every politician accountable for his actions. And I am equally dismayed when I see people bootlicking Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama.
    But that happened more naturally, it would take a different thread to discuss it in detail.

    What I have seen in the past years after Trump's election was disinformation at a level that I didn't even think possible. It seems that social media has transformed people into being even more naive and gullible, as they form homogenous groups and close theirselves inside echo chambers, bubbles where they bounce around their own views without accepting any conflicting outside opinions.


    Quote Posted by Grey Brain (here)
    I think humanity collectively coming together once it gets bad enough will be the answer.
    Not if at that point in time, another con-man appears and drifts us in the wrong direction or even worse, drives a wedge between us.

    I think we need to get tougher and smarter, learn to think more critically and practice discernment in order to be immune to the manipulation and disinformation that has flooded our society in the past years. Only then will we be strong enough to fight off these grifters and scam artists and not keep falling for "nigerian princes" with a bank account under our name... And stop forming cult-like followings for these scammers.

    When I "started my journey".. I used to hear a lot of people reffering to "sheeple" that watch CNN and believe all of their lies.
    Now I see that this exact community is even more blindly swallowing any BS just because it comes from the "truther" side of the internet. They seem to be even more ignorant than the "sheeple" they were patronizing.

    If all they saw in those "sheeple" was a group of people that they can feel superior to, because they had the absolute truth and the others didn't... then they haven't learned anything in the lines of awareness, logical analysis, perception and reasoning... and it was all just an ego trip.

  25. Link to Post #1259
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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    It seems that I have upset the state of affairs by challenging the narrative on this forum.
    I have been contacted by Bill Ryan who has questioned me of why I am posting about american politics... even though I have not posted any hostile or offensive message.

    I don't want to stop people from their regular programming and send anyone into damage control because someone is bringing factual evidence that confronts the claims posted here, which all seem to lean in one direction.
    I hope I did not cause the top posters to slow down their usual information sharing.

    I do not have any hidden motives, just time to spare while in my last days of quarantine.

    If I've managed to convince even one reader to have a more open mind and fight against cognitive dissonance to escape their bubble, then I am truly happy.

    And for you, the silent reader that doesn't post... you are not alone! Don't think for a second that what you read on forums is the opinion of the majority. Most of the top posters on any website are usually not authentic and it is their job to manipulate you. (not pointing a finger at Avalon, just the internet in general)

    Good luck to all in your journeys... and please, try to be more critical with information you read on the web.

    Cheers!

  26. Link to Post #1260
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    Default Re: Trump is NOT the answer

    Cross posting from another thread. Zamolxe writes a comprehensive summary of the negatives for four years of Donald Trump.

    Quote Posted by Zamolxe (here)

    It's been 4 years, I will leave a list of accomplishments here that seem to oppose our morals and principles regarding mother earth, peace, fighting big corporations and standing up for the little man.
    • protected Saudi crown prince Mohammed bin Salman after killing Khashoghi because "they give us a lot of money"... seems you can buy a license to kill for the correct price
    • sold bombs to Saudi Arabia, Jordan and UAE despite congressional objections that it would lead to Saudis dropping bombs on civilians in Yemen
    • cut taxes for corporations
    • appointed Scott Pruitt to EPA after he dedicated his life to combating federal environment regulations and fighting for big oil
    • advanced construction of the Keystone XL and Dakota Access oil pipelines -
    • Keystone XL pipeline approved by President Trump, spilled 210,000 gallons of oil near the border of South Dakota and North Dakota Nov 17 2017
    • rolled back offshore drilling regulations put in place after the BP Deepwater Horizon
    • drafted a proposal to open 94% of previously protected American shorelines to offshore drilling
    • authorized five companies to use seismic airguns to search for offshore oil and gas. In doing so, the administration disregarded the federal government’s estimate that airgun testing poses a threat to many marine mammals, including dolphins and whales.
    • nominated David Bernhardt to be Secretary of the Interior, a role responsible for the management and conservation of federal land and natural resources. A former oil lobbyist, Bernhardt played a key role in rolling back the protection of endangered species
    • signed executive orders that would make it easier for gas and oil companies to lay pipelines without being blocked by states citing the Clean Water Act
    • relaxed regulations for drilling for oil and gas off Florida’s coast, Trump’s Interior Department planned to open up drilling off the state’s coast — but not until after the November election.
    • Trump administration announced that it would begin selling leases for oil and gas drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, a vast area of undisturbed wilderness in Alaska
    • eliminated an Obama-era rule that required oil and gas companies to repair methane leaks.
    • rolled back an Obama-era regulation that required oil companies to provide purchasing information when buying minerals from foreign governments. Concerned that oil companies would purchase oil from corrupt and violent foreign administrations, the SEC had originally said Obama’s regulation would “combat government corruption through transparency and accountability.” The repeal had long been on the oil lobby’s wish list, and will save oil industry giants about half a billion dollars per year in compliance costs
    • Scott Pruitt’s schedule showed he held near-daily meetings with oil lobbyists, automobile company executives, and other industry leaders, while making almost no time for environmental advocates
    • Scott Pruitt told a crowd at the Kentucky Farm Bureau that he would like to remove all tax credits given to wind and solar energy
    • signed an executive order that instructed the Bureau of Land Management to lift a moratorium on new coal mining leases for federal land
    • in his first budget proposal, Donald Trump boosted defense and security spending by $54 billion. He proposed slashing the budget for non-defense spending in areas like education, science, poverty programs, and environmental protection by almost the same amount
    • EPA would withdraw mining restrictions on Alaska’s headwaters, opening the door to a major mining facility in the area. This reversal came after an EPA study concluded the mine could decimate salmon populations in the area, and thereby harm native Alaskans whose culture depended heavily on salmon.
    • for the second most powerful position at the Environmental Protection Agency, Donald Trump nominated Andrew Wheeler, a long-time coal lobbyist who had served as legal counsel for some of the largest coal mining companies in America
    • Donald Trump and EPA Administrator Scott Pruitt moved to repeal the Clean Power Act, introduced by Obama to lower carbon dioxide emissions 32 percent by 2030
    • Trump called for $8.6 billion for his border wall in his budget proposal for fiscal year 2020. The same budget called for increased spending for the Department of Homeland Security and a 31% spending cut to the Environmental Protection Agency
    • The EPA issued the final Affordable Clean Energy Rule, which rolled back power-plant regulations established under President Obama
    • proposed major changes to the National Environmental Policy Act. The new rules would allow federal agencies to bypass consideration of the environmental impact of proposed infrastructure projects
    • EPA finalized its revised Navigable Waters Protection Rule. Under Trump, protections for many rivers, streams, and wetlands were now officially removed
    • Perchlorate, a toxic chemical compound used in rocket fuel, has been found to contaminate water, causing fetal and infant brain damage. The Obama administration planned to regulate the chemical, but the Environmental Protection Agency, led by Trump’s appointee Andrew Wheeler, went against the decision, saying that the regulation was “not in the public interest.”
    • multiple conflicts of interest either using or promoting his business through his office
    • kept pushing to hold the G7 summit at a Trump resort
    • government officials and special interest groups being hosted at trump hotels and his golf clubs. Overcharging the secret service and officials for their stay at his properties. Having Qatari, Kuweiti and Saudi delegations repeatedly organize events at his hotels, placing huge amounts of money in his pockets. Basically, they bought his influence with direct payments.
    • attacked syria with 59 Tomahawk missiles
    • killed approx 100 syrians
    • encouraged the continuation of the bombing of Yemen
    • declared the Houthis as terrorists
    • btw, before he was president he was very much pro-wars: he was for invading Lybia in 2011, he agreed to the first Gulf War, for invading North Korea:
      https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...elites/502145/
    • aggression towards Iran, airstrike that killed Qassim Suleimani. Threatening sites “important to Iran & the Iranian culture”
    • Trump administration helped GOP donors get Syria oil deal
      "Rayburn also admitted that the Trump administration had actually pushed for Delta Crescent Energy — and no other companies — to receive permission to exploit Syrian oil."
    • Trump Says U.S. Troops Stayed in Syria 'Because I Kept the Oil'
    • has pardoned four Blackwater security guards who were given lengthy prison sentences for killing 14 civilians in Baghdad in 2007, a massacre that caused international uproar
    • pardoned multiple corrupt politicians, donors or allies
    • "This administration has not only surpassed the previous one’s drone strike volume overseas, it has made the drone wars even more secretive, if that’s possible.
      According to a 2018 report in The Daily Beast, Obama launched 186 drone strikes in Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan during his first two years in office. In Trump’s first two years, he launched 238."
    • "Trump's air strikes in Afghanistan dramatically increased civilian deaths: Report
      The US's easing of restrictions on aerial strikes has led to an increase of attacks across the Middle East, Afghanistan and neighbouring countries"
    • U.S. national debt has ballooned under the administration of President Donald Trump, increasing by nearly $7 trillion in less than four years.
    • Federal spending by the Trump administration is around 6.6 percent higher than it was before he took office, equating to around $255 billion
    • used his final hours in office to revoke an executive order on ethics that was meant to bolster his “drain the swamp” campaign promise.
    • Nominating Industry Insiders From the moment he took office he continued the practice of his predecessors and continue the revolving door relationship between government and corporations
    • Cozy with Big Oil
    • Cozy with Big Pharma
    • Ending Investigations Into Pesticide Dangers
    • Making GMOs Easier To Enter the Food Supply On June 11, 2019, Trump quietly issued an executive order to “streamline” GMO regulations in the United States. The order, titled Modernizing the Regulatory Framework for Agricultural Biotechnology Products
    • Support of and Expansion of the 5G Roll Out. Despite opposition by thousands of scientists, doctors, researchers, activists, and health professionals, Donald Trump pushed for the expansion of 5G networks, at one time calling for 6G.
    • Support of the Syria False Flag Narrative
    • Fighting to Keep Presidential Kill List Secret
    • Lying to the 9/11 Victims’ Families Despite making vague statements about “finding out the truth” about 9/11, Donald Trump never used his position to challenge the official narrative surrounding the 9/11 attacks. Even worse, Trump actually lied to the victims’ family members when he promised he would get to the bottom of the Saudi involvement in 9/11. Despite the families efforts to have Trump investigate Saudi Arabia, he failed to do any meaningful investigation of one of the American government’s favorite partners.
    • Imprisoned an American Citizen Without Trial or Charge
    • Continued Support of the NDAA Indefinite Detention Clause
    • Attempted to Block Testimony on CIA Torture
    • Supporting the Persecution and Prosecution of Julian Assange & Chelsea Manning

    SWAMP CREATURE PROSECUTIONS: 0

    REVOCATION OF PATRIOT ACT: NO

    9/11 DOMESTIC CRIMINALS BROUGHT TO JUSTICE: NO

    BILL GATES, G W BUSH AND **** CHENEY BROUGHT TO JUSTICE FOR INTERNATIONAL CRIMES: NO

    PARDONED JULIAN ASSANGE – EDWARD SNOWDEN PATRIOTISM RECOGNIZED: NO

    BREAK-UP OF BIG TECH CENSORSHIP CRIMINAL ORGS: NO

    TAX INCREASES FOR BILLIONAIRES AND MONOPOLY CORPORATIONS: NO

    INVESTING IN CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS SUCH AS DESALINIZATION PLANTS, AMBITIOUS DOMESTIC RECYCLING PROCESS FACILITIES, SUSTAINABLE TREE FARMING ON A MASS SCALE, CONSTRUCTION OF ALTERNATIVE ENERGY SOURCES TO REDUCE NUCLEAR REACTOR WASTE AND RISK: NO


    He also didn't "Lock her up".

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