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Thread: Shakespeare did NOT write Shakespeare. (Mark Twain: "Is Shakespeare Dead?")

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    Avalon Member Delight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shakespeare did NOT write Shakespeare. (Mark Twain: "Is Shakespeare Dead?")

    Alexander Waugh (grandson of Evelyn Waugh) is a researcher and this IMO is a fascinating discussion... there has been an ONGOING esoteric secret manipulation of culture.

    Quote PROOF Shakespeare Was A RESET ALIAS - Alexander Waugh

    Antistratfordian Oxfordian theory: Edward De Vere was indeed Shakespeare.
    Alexander Waugh channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHN7...

    Video: The Incalculable Genius of John Dee: https://youtu.be/U-PWR7-0Hp4

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    Default Re: Shakespeare did NOT write Shakespeare. (Mark Twain: "Is Shakespeare Dead?")

    Bumping this thread with a most excellent and concise interview of author Elizabeth Winkler by Chris Hedges of The Real News Network, who clearly knows a lot about the subject. (And so does Elizabeth Winkler!)

    For anyone who's new to this topic, this is just 30 minutes long and covers almost the entire series of key questions — including how come so many scholars just will not look at the issue of who actually wrote this huge body of inspired work.

    The video title is Was Shakespeare a woman? — but that's clickbait, as the conversation is about FAR more than that. Only Bacon and Marlowe are discussed as possible authors, and only in the last few minutes of the video.

    And whether 'Shakespeare was a woman' isn't addressed at all
    . Elizabeth Winkler's book is called Shakespeare Was a Woman and Other Heresies: How Doubting the Bard Became the Biggest Taboo in Literature, but that title is largely clickbait too.

    For who the author really was (or the authors really were!), there's a ton of material in this Avalon thread. Some might find it academic and arcane, but the whole subject says a LOT about how human nature interferes to obstruct real scholarship — and science, too.


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    Default Re: Shakespeare did NOT write Shakespeare. (Mark Twain: "Is Shakespeare Dead?")

    I have only dipped-into this issue - but I usually drop-out when I realize that so many commenters don't realize how much better a writer/ poet "Shakespeare" (whoever he was) was, than anybody else alive at the time (or before, or since).

    By my evaluation; there is nobody known, ever, who could have written the stuff attributed-to Shakespeare - on the basis of what we have of other writers.

    If it wasn't Shakespeare of Stratford who wrote the stuff, then it surely wasn't some other writer/ poet of the era, nor any combination of writers. We are dealing with a genius whose work is beyond that of other geniuses. I think that assumption must form the basis of discussion!

    This seems to me the key fact about the business; in other words, unless that fact is acknowledged - I see no reason to pay attention to the discussion.

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    Default Re: Shakespeare did NOT write Shakespeare. (Mark Twain: "Is Shakespeare Dead?")

    Quote Posted by Bruce G Charlton (here)
    I have only dipped-into this issue - but I usually drop-out when I realize that so many commenters don't realize how much better a writer/ poet "Shakespeare" (whoever he was) was, than anybody else alive at the time (or before, or since).

    By my evaluation; there is nobody known, ever, who could have written the stuff attributed-to Shakespeare - on the basis of what we have of other writers.

    If it wasn't Shakespeare of Stratford who wrote the stuff, then it surely wasn't some other writer/ poet of the era, nor any combination of writers. We are dealing with a genius whose work is beyond that of other geniuses. I think that assumption must form the basis of discussion!

    This seems to me the key fact about the business; in other words, unless that fact is acknowledged - I see no reason to pay attention to the discussion.
    The “Shakespeare” from New Place, Stratford, was William Shakspere. That is not a misspelling. Pronounced shack-spear.

    For my money, “William Shakespeare” was a pseudonym or nom de plume used by Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford. See, e.g., Shakespeare Identified, by J. Thomas Looney and the video in post 61 above. I have and have read Looney’s book. I’m no scholar on the subject, but Looney makes a very convincing case for why de Vere was Shakespeare and why Shakspere was not.

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    Default Re: Shakespeare did NOT write Shakespeare. (Mark Twain: "Is Shakespeare Dead?")

    Quote Posted by Satori (here)
    For my money, “William Shakespeare” was a pseudonym or nom de plume used by Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford. See, e.g., Shakespeare Identified, by J. Thomas Looney and the video in post 61 above. I have and have read Looney’s book. I’m no scholar on the subject, but Looney makes a very convincing case for why de Vere was Shakespeare and why Shakspere was not.
    I'm far from a scholar in this area either, but to my lay ear the case for de Vere is fairly persuasive. (But it seems it has to be possible there may have been some other authors as well, even if they merely revised some material.)

    This is a compelling half-hour video laying out a small mountain of evidence suggesting that Shakespeare = de Vere. Whatever one's views, it's surely very interesting. Looney's 1920 book is referenced in some detail.



    Quote Posted by Bruce G Charlton (here)
    If it wasn't Shakespeare of Stratford who wrote the sonnets and plays, then it surely wasn't some other writer/ poet of the era, nor any combination of writers. We are dealing with a genius whose work is beyond that of other geniuses.
    Bruce, many thanks — I can't possibly disagree about the level of genius involved. It does kind of boggle the mind. (I do think we should start a thread on the nature of genius, btw, and its rarity in the modern world.)

    In the video I posted to which you replied, Elizabeth Winkler makes the point that 'Sratfordians' (the name given to those who hold that Shakspere from Stratford was the author) kind of wave their hands about the authorship issue and treat it as if it was some kind of mysterious but important historical text, like the Rosetta Stone, the real author forever lost in time. And therefore, the Stratfordians continue, let's focus only on the wonderful works of genius themselves and nothing else at all.

    If it wasn't any well-known historical figure (de Vere, Marlowe, Bacon, or any of the others who have been proposed), then it's surely still a compelling detective story to try to discover what unknown person really did write all this marvelous work.

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    Default Re: Shakespeare did NOT write Shakespeare. (Mark Twain: "Is Shakespeare Dead?")

    More on this. I didn't know of Elizabeth Winkler before, so I started to look for more information. Below is another 30-minute interview, in which she sparkles with humor, articulacy and intelligence. I was impressed.

    She's far more interested in the phenomenon of what's become a kind of religion-which-must-not-be-challenged (and what it's like to be a heretical journalist asking questions which are taboo), than trying to make a case for any particular author, whether a woman or not. Asking if Shakespeare was a woman was just how she started her journey, so that question has become a kind of brand with which she's associated and identified.

    And many Avalon readers, even if they have little curiosity about Shakespeare, might be really interested in the experience of a very smart mainstream journalist who accidentally strays into the minefield of taboo questions which are fiercely protected by academic orthodoxy. There are lessons here.

    (Her excellent 2019 Atlantic article, attracting a sudden storm of controversy which shocked her, is here, and her book is here. I'm going to read it.)




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    Default Re: Shakespeare did NOT write Shakespeare. (Mark Twain: "Is Shakespeare Dead?")

    Quote Posted by Bruce G Charlton (here)
    I have only dipped-into this issue - but I usually drop-out when I realize that so many commenters don't realize how much better a writer/ poet "Shakespeare" (whoever he was) was, than anybody else alive at the time (or before, or since).

    By my evaluation; there is nobody known, ever, who could have written the stuff attributed-to Shakespeare - on the basis of what we have of other writers.

    If it wasn't Shakespeare of Stratford who wrote the stuff, then it surely wasn't some other writer/ poet of the era, nor any combination of writers. We are dealing with a genius whose work is beyond that of other geniuses. I think that assumption must form the basis of discussion!

    This seems to me the key fact about the business; in other words, unless that fact is acknowledged - I see no reason to pay attention to the discussion.
    Any language is worth its greatest poet. Any poet is worth his/her best poem.

    All best poems of any greatest poets are equally good.

    There are no yardsticks to measure the works of geniuses.

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    Default Re: Shakespeare did NOT write Shakespeare. (Mark Twain: "Is Shakespeare Dead?")

    The Shakespeare plays were spicy and there are too many. My best frame of reference isn't that it was this guy, or that guy, but it was many collaborating. Then this jumps out at me: there's a drinking house/or club, or clicky group, hosted by Shakespeare with actor/theatre buddies and they get drunk because they love beer and good company, with famous theater personalities of the time attending, and they have great banter together which is politically and/or socially spicy, somewhat taboo, but its so funny they're all playing ideas off each other as banter does, getting spicier and more smart-ass, and they have each other in hysterics. It's so much fun but a little too naughty which really propels the group. There are plays in that drunken banter and they can't help themselves but write them into plays, and see what they can get away with, playing off each other, whoever is in attendance. They might have highbrow careers in other fields so this set of plays that evolved from spicy banter is too hot for them so its published with a level of indirection. Then many of those hugely talented people mentioned could contribute, and possible many more. They are all suspects for a reason. I don't know what I'm talking about, but this idea jumps out at me more than trying to fit it into a frame of reference involving one single person. Thinking aloud. Sorry about the big paragraph but this idea is a pure fantasy and doesn't deserve good formatting.

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