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Thread: Intelligent Design

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    Australia Avalon Member Ankle Biter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Intelligent Design

    Quote Posted by petra (here)
    Quote Posted by Patient (here)
    ....When people mention an intelligent creator they immediately think of one entity. It could very well be all of us.
    Us... the trees... maybe even the rocks too. Rocks are a bit of a stretch, but I don't think it as far-fetched as I once did!
    Here is a link to an article about awareness titled "The Private Lives of Rocks"

    Quote Posted by Article
    Do rocks have minds? A minority of modern philosophers are prepared (but only, perhaps, after some prodding) to admit they believe the answer is ‘yes’ – or at least, ‘sort of’.
    Interesting article and I somewhat agree with the idea.. And I'm happy to hear that someone called Petra is open to the idea as well
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. -Lao Tzu

    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.

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    Default Re: Intelligent Design

    Bumping this very interesting thread with this, copied over from Animals are Magical.

    (Personal statement: In my view, Intelligent Design is obvious. Who the designer is or was, I do not know.)

    Quote Posted by RunningDeer (here)
    Leaf mimicry is an especially clever form of camouflage. For some animals, looking like a leaf serves as protection from hungry predators. For others, it is a useful way to wait in plain sight for unwitting prey. The adaptation is most common among insects but can also be found in reptiles, amphibians, and even fish!

    Leaf butterfly lives in the tropical zones of Asia and Africa. When danger is detected, the butterfly snaps its wings and instantly becomes like a dry leaf.

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    Default Re: Intelligent Design

    Scientists are trying to make a case that the Intelligent Design theory came into being in the early 1990s but nothing could be further from the truth. Ever since man looked at the stars he/she has theorized that there must be a Creator responsible for everything in their view including other men/women. intelligent Design and Creationism are essentially the same things, evolution was a radical and flawed theory and very late to the party. Evolution as we know is just another stage in the Intelligent Design process. If you just ponder the size, scope, and energy of the cosmos conclusions about creationism/intelligent design can not be denied. If you just start reading about a full eclipse (lunar or solar) you must conclude that this could not possibly be a happenstance accident. If you have any doubts just peruse the the animals are magical thread (as Bill has suggested)

    I have been convinced at an early age that every answer we need about life resides in each of us. Your own thoughts over a period of time should be enough to satisfy even the most skeptical. While it is fun to chase outside validation it is much more satisfying to reach your own conclusion.

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    Default Re: Intelligent Design

    Nature is amazing. The following video is about a type of camouflage as well.




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    Default Re: Intelligent Design

    Quote Posted by rgray222 (here)
    The owl moth and the owl butterfly

    Moth:



    Butterfly:

    ~~~

    There's absolutely NO WAY something like that could ever have evolved through Darwinian Natural Selection. Literally, not a chance.

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    UK Avalon Member Matthew's Avatar
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    Default Re: Intelligent Design

    Darwinian Natural Selection is at play, but is it the whole story? Doesn't necessarily mean Darwin wasn't onto something. At least Darwin was trying to understand what we can see... a noble cause. And he was a non conformist so I like the chap. I have a different opinion to Darwin about God and I see God in everything, especially fruit trees. As far as I'm concerned the fruit tree could abide in God, pray in it's own tree like way, and be blessed by God and so evolves into a force for life providing delicious fruit etc. I'm not trying to convince anyone, and I'm entitled to my belief. Darwin sort of went as far as we can with observations, trying to watch evolution happening. Crazy stuff, I'm not sure how anyone can be anything other than mystified? But our productive culture doesn't hold onto mysteries very well, everything must be certain.

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    Default Re: Intelligent Design

    Quote Posted by Matthew (here)
    Darwinian Natural Selection is at play, but is it the whole story? Doesn't necessarily mean Darwin wasn't onto something. At least Darwins work except for his sketches those were great, was trying to understand what we can see... a noble cause. And he was a non conformist so I like the chap. I have a different opinion to Darwin about God and I see God in everything, especially fruit trees. As far as I'm concerned the fruit tree could abide in God, pray in it's own tree like way, and be blessed by God and so evolves into a force for life providing delicious fruit etc. I'm not trying to convince anyone, and I'm entitled to my belief. Darwin sort of went as far as we can with observations, trying to watch evolution happening. Crazy stuff, I'm not sure how anyone can be anything other than mystified? But our productive culture doesn't hold onto mysteries very well, everything must be certain.
    You are one of my very favorite people on this forum and I dearly value your opinion, but I can't find any redeeming qualities about Darwin. I don't know, he may have been very sincere and a nice guy but even as a little kid natural selection just doesn't work. What I do see is a magnificent creation and creatures, and flora with an incredible ability to adapt a huge amount.

    I spent many years living in more urban settings where nature is controlled and sanitized and then moved to a rural setting where nature was, uncensored, non-sanitized nature and I have seen natures incredible ability to adapt to changes and many times to do it in one generation. It is mind boggling. I believe adaption is highly underrated.

    I see intelligent design all around me that still brings me to my knees in a state of awe at the expression of the whole chain of life. Funny, I remember being told when I was a little kid that my tonsils could be removed because they don't serve any purpose, they are remnants of evolution, the same with the appendix. How about "junk" DNA. There may have been dramatic changes but I don't believe if they were that is was through natural selection.

    Here is where I question Darwin's theory. Why are most humans created so they could not survive in their environment,(I realize there are very mild climates and this would not be true everywhere) just as they are. You could say we adapted by increasing our intellect but that still doesn't make sense. You see dramatic changes that animals have to their coats for example throughout the seasons. In the winter in cold climates their coats get thicker and there are probably so many adaptions I don't know about. They don't have to make a coat and get shoes or else they freeze. ( I realize there are exceptions) and particularly aberrations in weather could cause deaths.

    Wouldn't we have naturally selected into a species that could live without having to make clothes and improves intellect? It doesn't fit with the way the rest of the life cycles are on the planet that I have observed for a long time now.

    It makes no sense that we would evolve into creatures that are in many cases unprepared to deal with the natural world. We don't fit in properly with the rest of the planet in my assessment. We are a cancer to the cycle of life , we take more than we need and destroy even to our own detriment.Apparently many of us are willing to endanger our own offspring for non survival reasons (not everyone once again).That does not fit in with the rest of the world, at least not to my knowledge. It the species with the most desirable characteristics for survival are the ones that carry on, there's something amiss here. Because humanity is becoming wimpier (certainly not everywhere) and less able to adapt to the natural world, not the other way around.

    I see the harmony and life cycles of animals and plants, the give and take and humans don't fit into that cyclic design. It tells me there is something up, but I don't think it is natural selection. I am just coming to understand the level and depth of the lies we have come to accept as fact, as our history. I haven't even skimmed the top, yet. I used to always talk about us coming to the grand finale of some big inversion event. I didn't see we our already in it. Have always been in it. I just couldn't deal with the level of evil that is out there. Our experience is the inversion. It doesn't mean we are all evil ,,, but our mettle is definitely being tested.

    On the other hand , I think adaption is not given enough credit. Adaption is awesome and it can be quick when it needs to.

    Darwin could have been a wonderful and nice guy but all of us have been programmed to varied degrees.Everything good here is weaponized and manipulated for purposes of control. Darwins whole "theory" of evolution, which indicates that he didn't state it was a fact reminds me of how they took one of the CEOs of big pharma, I think it was Moderna stating that they "hope" their injection prevents transmission was turned into a vicious hate campaign and a belief that we are saving others by poisoning ourselves....

    Anyway, I love good old fashioned debate so I am throwing my two cents. At this point in my life I just feel dumber and dumber.. I am not so sure about being right about anything..... for all I know a neanderthal could walk down the street in 5 minutes and I wouldn't blink an eye...and I refuse to ever quit believing in Sasquatch.

    I adore you Matthew, your contributions are deeply valued.

    These are my opinions, I am in no way criticizing you . You are a very bright man and I feel I can debate a bit and not have you take it personally. How could I? You have what I feel is one of the most important and timely threads on the forum?

    With great respect,
    Pam

    Sometimes I just love to write. I am grateful to have a place to do so. I also welcome any challenges. One thing I know for sure is that I know nothing for sure

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    UK Avalon Member Matthew's Avatar
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    Default Re: Intelligent Design

    Wow there's a lot to digest here, thank you for the kind words.

    Quote Posted by Pam (here)
    Quote Posted by Matthew (here)
    blah blah
    ...

    I see intelligent design all around me that still brings me to my knees in a state of awe at the expression of the whole chain of life. Funny, I remember being told when I was a little kid that my tonsils could be removed because they don't serve any purpose, they are remnants of evolution, the same with the appendix. How about "junk" DNA. There may have been dramatic changes but I don't believe if they were that is was through natural selection.
    Yeah the tonsil thing is weird. Mine were removed and I didn't even get ice cream, no I was given crisps to 'scrape the clots off'. I expect I had my tonsils for a reason, the NHS really liked to remove them. They're making it up as they go a long "junk" DNA yes you have a point. "Junk" is one of our cultural words to use instead of the word "mystery"... something we don't understand.

    Quote Posted by Pam (here)
    Here is where I question Darwin's theory. Why are most humans created so they could not survive in their environment,(I realize there are very mild climates and this would not be true everywhere) just as they are. You could say we adapted by increasing our intellect but that still doesn't make sense. You see dramatic changes that animals have to their coats for example throughout the seasons. In the winter in cold climates their coats get thicker and there are probably so many adaptions I don't know about. They don't have to make a coat and get shoes or else they freeze. ( I realize there are exceptions) and particularly aberrations in weather could cause deaths.

    Wouldn't we have naturally selected into a species that could live without having to make clothes and improves intellect? It doesn't fit with the way the rest of the life cycles are on the planet that I have observed for a long time now.

    It makes no sense that we would evolve into creatures that are in many cases unprepared to deal with the natural world. We don't fit in properly with the rest of the planet in my assessment. We are a cancer to the cycle of life , we take more than we need and destroy even to our own detriment.Apparently many of us are willing to endanger our own offspring for non survival reasons (not everyone once again).That does not fit in with the rest of the world, at least not to my knowledge. It the species with the most desirable characteristics for survival are the ones that carry on, there's something amiss here. Because humanity is becoming wimpier (certainly not everywhere) and less able to adapt to the natural world, not the other way around.
    We don't even seem to fit on this planet... blue eyes suck. And we have gone from the macho 1970's to gentrified urban values post-2000; everyone has soft hands. Everyone I know does, ok not all, but most do. Nerds. My hands are the same as the nerds. I'm a nerd. I'm retro learning from a suburban life back to old ways and traditions. It's slow going. My high tech life is too useful atm. But we are strange against other nature around us,... the nurturing time a human young needs is ridiculously long. The intrinsic behaviour of a squirrel or a bird... yes we don't have that. We have an affinity with square-edged engineering, discovering things, and then making a weapon out of them. We are REALLY good at this And following leaders with obedience, we're really rather jolly good at that. A+ score, very well done humanity

    Quote Posted by Pam (here)
    I see the harmony and life cycles of animals and plants, the give and take and humans don't fit into that cyclic design. It tells me there is something up, but I don't think it is natural selection. I am just coming to understand the level and depth of the lies we have come to accept as fact, as our history. I haven't even skimmed the top, yet. I used to always talk about us coming to the grand finale of some big inversion event. I didn't see we our already in it. Have always been in it. I just couldn't deal with the level of evil that is out there. Our experience is the inversion. It doesn't mean we are all evil ,,, but our mettle is definitely being tested.

    On the other hand , I think adaption is not given enough credit. Adaption is awesome and it can be quick when it needs to.
    Some big inversion event is a frightening idea, it's crossed my mind. Suddenly there are desperate people with families to feed, and no experience or even pre-thought to the existential upset... a total desperate surprise. I'm sure we're utterly vulnerable to that. I'm sure there would be adaption like you say, but the future is unknown, it's really annoying.

    Quote Posted by Pam (here)
    Darwin could have been a wonderful and nice guy but all of us have been programmed to varied degrees.Everything good here is weaponized and manipulated for purposes of control. Darwins whole "theory" of evolution, which indicates that he didn't state it was a fact reminds me of how they took one of the CEOs of big pharma, I think it was Moderna stating that they "hope" their injection prevents transmission was turned into a vicious hate campaign and a belief that we are saving others by poisoning ourselves....

    ...
    Well, I suppose he was the figure head in an assault against some social/political battle, and he is a cherished scientist ...which goes against him now you point that out. I liked that he tried to measure what he could, as much as a man or woman could do, ...but he is far too popular to be trusted using Lloyd Pie logic.

    I like nature, I'm drawn to it, to get closer to the soil. Nature is my teacher and I love it. Except the cat that peed on my chimenea, I chased that little bastard off.

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  17. Link to Post #49
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    Default Re: Intelligent Design

    Quote Posted by Matthew (here)
    Wow there's a lot to digest here, thank you for the kind words.

    Quote Posted by Pam (here)
    Quote Posted by Matthew (here)
    blah blah
    ...

    I see intelligent design all around me that still brings me to my knees in a state of awe at the expression of the whole chain of life. Funny, I remember being told when I was a little kid that my tonsils could be removed because they don't serve any purpose, they are remnants of evolution, the same with the appendix. How about "junk" DNA. There may have been dramatic changes but I don't believe if they were that is was through natural selection.
    Yeah the tonsil thing is weird. Mine were removed and I didn't even get ice cream, no I was given crisps to 'scrape the clots off'. I expect I had my tonsils for a reason, the NHS really liked to remove them. They're making it up as they go a long "junk" DNA yes you have a point. "Junk" is one of our cultural words to use instead of the word "mystery"... something we don't understand.

    Quote Posted by Pam (here)
    Here is where I question Darwin's theory. Why are most humans created so they could not survive in their environment,(I realize there are very mild climates and this would not be true everywhere) just as they are. You could say we adapted by increasing our intellect but that still doesn't make sense. You see dramatic changes that animals have to their coats for example throughout the seasons. In the winter in cold climates their coats get thicker and there are probably so many adaptions I don't know about. They don't have to make a coat and get shoes or else they freeze. ( I realize there are exceptions) and particularly aberrations in weather could cause deaths.

    Wouldn't we have naturally selected into a species that could live without having to make clothes and improves intellect? It doesn't fit with the way the rest of the life cycles are on the planet that I have observed for a long time now.

    It makes no sense that we would evolve into creatures that are in many cases unprepared to deal with the natural world. We don't fit in properly with the rest of the planet in my assessment. We are a cancer to the cycle of life , we take more than we need and destroy even to our own detriment.Apparently many of us are willing to endanger our own offspring for non survival reasons (not everyone once again).That does not fit in with the rest of the world, at least not to my knowledge. It the species with the most desirable characteristics for survival are the ones that carry on, there's something amiss here. Because humanity is becoming wimpier (certainly not everywhere) and less able to adapt to the natural world, not the other way around.
    We don't even seem to fit on this planet... blue eyes suck. And we have gone from the macho 1970's to gentrified urban values post-2000; everyone has soft hands. Everyone I know does, ok not all, but most do. Nerds. My hands are the same as the nerds. I'm a nerd. I'm retro learning from a suburban life back to old ways and traditions. It's slow going. My high tech life is too useful atm. But we are strange against other nature around us,... the nurturing time a human young needs is ridiculously long. The intrinsic behaviour of a squirrel or a bird... yes we don't have that. We have an affinity with square-edged engineering, discovering things, and then making a weapon out of them. We are REALLY good at this And following leaders with obedience, we're really rather jolly good at that. A+ score, very well done humanity

    Quote Posted by Pam (here)
    I see the harmony and life cycles of animals and plants, the give and take and humans don't fit into that cyclic design. It tells me there is something up, but I don't think it is natural selection. I am just coming to understand the level and depth of the lies we have come to accept as fact, as our history. I haven't even skimmed the top, yet. I used to always talk about us coming to the grand finale of some big inversion event. I didn't see we our already in it. Have always been in it. I just couldn't deal with the level of evil that is out there. Our experience is the inversion. It doesn't mean we are all evil ,,, but our mettle is definitely being tested.

    On the other hand , I think adaption is not given enough credit. Adaption is awesome and it can be quick when it needs to.
    Some big inversion event is a frightening idea, it's crossed my mind. Suddenly there are desperate people with families to feed, and no experience or even pre-thought to the existential upset... a total desperate surprise. I'm sure we're utterly vulnerable to that. I'm sure there would be adaption like you say, but the future is unknown, it's really annoying.

    Quote Posted by Pam (here)
    Darwin could have been a wonderful and nice guy but all of us have been programmed to varied degrees.Everything good here is weaponized and manipulated for purposes of control. Darwins whole "theory" of evolution, which indicates that he didn't state it was a fact reminds me of how they took one of the CEOs of big pharma, I think it was Moderna stating that they "hope" their injection prevents transmission was turned into a vicious hate campaign and a belief that we are saving others by poisoning ourselves....

    ...
    Well, I suppose he was the figure head in an assault against some social/political battle, and he is a cherished scientist ...which goes against him now you point that out. I liked that he tried to measure what he could, as much as a man or woman could do, ...but he is far too popular to be trusted using Lloyd Pie logic.

    I like nature, I'm drawn to it, to get closer to the soil. Nature is my teacher and I love it. Except the cat that peed on my chimenea, I chased that little bastard off.
    I really appreciated that you responded to all my questions that have not been satisfied since I was a kid. It's simple stuff. I remember asking my mom why we have baby toes. Why was this one toe so much more little than the other toes. She told me that we had come from ape like creatures and most likely the little toe would diminish with natural selection. I remember climbing into a tree, staying there for a long time. I was sure I feel it if any of man ancestors had been apes or monkeys! I never could feel the connection.... and I wonder my my mom used to call me the "odd ball kid". Guess she was right..


    Still can't come to terms with seeing one side of the moon, although they have some pretty impressive explanations on You Tube.....anyway, I'm glad your here Matthew!!!!
    Last edited by Pam; 12th November 2022 at 12:29.

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  19. Link to Post #50
    UK Avalon Member Matthew's Avatar
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    Default Re: Intelligent Design

    Quote Posted by Pam (here)
    ...
    Still can't come to terms with seeing one side of the moon, although they have some pretty impressive explanations on You Tube....
    There is plenty I haven't even thought about, and lots of rabbit holes I didn't even know existed. I distrust popular culture easily though, and always still now find myself looking at old things in a new way, with that ensuing sinking feeling; makes me wonder if I am a masochist. But I'm not, the world is just this way. I don't trust certainty and a side-effect of that is that I keep an open mind if nothing else

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  21. Link to Post #51
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    Default Re: Intelligent Design

    Quote Posted by Matthew (here)
    Quote Posted by Pam (here)
    ...
    Still can't come to terms with seeing one side of the moon, although they have some pretty impressive explanations on You Tube....
    There is plenty I haven't even thought about, and lots of rabbit holes I didn't even know existed. I distrust popular culture easily though, and always still now find myself looking at old things in a new way, with that ensuing sinking feeling; makes me wonder if I am a masochist. But I'm not, the world is just this way. I don't trust certainty and a side-effect of that is that I keep an open mind if nothing else
    Don't you agree that once we have come to understand the level of programming and how it permeates everything, thanks in great part to your thread, we have to go back if we are honest with ourselves and reexamine many of the things I know I was happy to believe the "experts"and "authorities" had figured out. were mostly nothing but programming. I'm sure there was and is truth and accuracy thrown in there but the point is once you see the level of deception you realize you don't really have the luxury of just accepting what you read or see. There is a heavy price to pay for that though. That false sense of security, at least any I thought I had is permanently gone and that can be very, very hard.

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    Default Re: Intelligent Design

    Recent thinking on tonsils has changed.
    There now considered a vital part of the immune system as a first defence in blocking germs entering the body threw nose and throat.they also contain large amounts of white blood cells .
    Makes me think is junk dna really junk or is are understanding of it's nature not Good enough?

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    Default Re: Intelligent Design

    The intricacies and symmetrical beauty of crop circles blow my mind.

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    Default Re: Intelligent Design

    Scientists Speak Out About Evidence of Intelligent Design in Nature - 2m 50s


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