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Thread: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

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    Lightbulb Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

    Brilliant & Beautyful!

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

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    Last edited by Constance; 14th November 2021 at 05:43. Reason: no longer appropriate

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

    Interesting website and man! Thanks for the link Constance!

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

    Form - Formless - both and neither.
    One without a second -- no subject no object -- just consciousness.
    Formless condenses into matter then returns to formless -- no thing.
    Illusion is not what it seems to be --it has "identity" but not what is perceived.
    I am That. by Nasargadatta is a great read.

    The opening post here is a great pointer, thanks
    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

    Am I alone in having major problems with this article? It is antithetical to everything I know to be true. It's OK if people want to believe it, but if you're in search of spiritual information, reader beware. For, ironically here, in an article about 'traps', traps are laid.

    Quote The observation that the more good you put into the world/your-reality then the more good is in the world/your-reality…is useful only for crazy people who believe if they plant oranges they’re going to get bananas.
    Read that a few times and parse it out. This is at the root of what he's sowing here - the idea that what you do doesn't really matter, because you see, the Universe is governed not by rules, systems and laws, or God, but by a sort of chaos.

    Nothing could be further from the truth. Karma is a Universal reality. And it's not an illusion. It's the immutable, inescapable law of cause and effect, of action having an equal and opposite reaction. It works the same across the Universe. So above, so below. Now and forever.

    Quote In the metaphor, the gamblers cannot leave the roulette table, just as you cannot leave existence. So you’re always at the roulette table. Sometimes you are winning, and sometimes you are losing. But it literally doesn’t matter because you’re not going anywhere, it all just comes back around whatever happens.
    Again, life is a craps shoot. There doesn't seem to be any consequences in the system he's presenting. Which is entirely consistent with the materialist point of view.

    Quote It’s an illusion and always has been. There is no Samsara and no karma.
    In other words, do as thou wilt...

    Which is the well-known foundation of another philosophy I think we all know. The same that bespeaks - as does this article - of just a random physical universe not a spiritual reality.

    He goes on to oppose the fundamental truth that darkness is a by-product of light's absence, when it absolutely is, the same way that cold is merely the absence of thermal energy rather a force of its own.

    Quote So the final realization is that you already exist at the end-state. Where you are now is the destination. You are already a Buddha and always have been.
    If this was the truth, there would be no value in the lessons we learn, no use in the struggle, and no purpose to existence at all. Yes this reality is an illusion, but that doesn't make it unreal. It's just a lesser, smaller, more rudimentary reality than the many greater ones that lie beyond.

    We're incarnated down here for a reason, and that reason is principally karma. We are certainly not in any 'end state', we are no where near the end state. That cannot be attained in this reality, or the next, or the next, or the next. The climb towards the godhead is virtually an infinite one.

    As to his claims in this article, nothing could be further from reality. Nothing. Honestly, this is at best new age gobbledegook, at worse, a veiled disinfo attack on the spiritual movement.

    @ Constance
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

    The perspective of the enlightened is uniform.
    One consciousness flowing through every thing There is no where that "God" is not.
    Everything vibrating same energy but different "frequency" therfore different forms.
    No subject no object -- there is no one separate from "you " to do anything to you.
    HOWEVER -- the actors on stage perform
    "Events happen
    Deeds are done
    But there is no individual doer there of"

    When we dream everything is so real -- the body in sleep can react to the dream as though it is real.
    The standard advice in non duality is remove all concepts, Neity Neity -- not this, not this.

    I accept there are duality paths -- me and God.
    What to believe? -- Nothing.
    Belief is conditioned -- its depends on what spiritual book you read last.
    Now I know nothing -- I started of with a very broad knowledge and belief, wide path -- now it is a razor edge, no search, nothing out there to find.
    Its like peeling the onion, so many layers, each is true till it is not. Till it is discarded.
    All that is needed is the awareness I am.
    That is the current understanding -- it may well change -- all the rest has gone.
    The enlightened are beyond Karma. Does consciousness have Karma?
    The seeming individual is in a different league time being.
    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

    Seems like you have a lot invested in your Karma, Star.

    All that was claimed was a unique and clever way to see reality, as opposing anti-reality, which is just as real. And if anti-reality is seen and called reality then its opposite is the reality now considered anti-reality. They are anti-pods. And when summed up it equals exactly...zero - the exact sum of a zero sum game!
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

    Free will can only be as free as the mind that conceives it.

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

    Very clever use of words here that do not help us navigate our reality. I find that a lot of folks attempt to escape karma, to believe that their passage through the world is without effect and that they do not have to pay for the consequences of their actions. If you can change the state of being with your mind, which many people say is quite possible, then perhaps this perspective can be valid for the person strong enough to escape the intrinsic pull of a shared, co-created reality and psychological context engrained in us since childhood and, potentially, even before.

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    Arrow Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    What about Samsara? What about karma? And the cycles? If you realize that nothing is more of a thing than something. So clearly cycles are no longer just non-cycles. A cycle then is not something that can be observed, or something that you could consider yourself in, unless you choose to view non-cycles as the real thing.
    Why should we live in a form of non-cycle?
    We live today in the age of Kali yuga, called the iron age and the darkest of the four ages

    These four ages (yuga):

    Krita Yuga (World Age or Golden Age) is 1.728 million years old.
    Tretā Yuga (Second World Age or Silver Age) is 1.296 million years old.
    Dvapara Yuga (Third Age or Bronze Age) is 0.864 million years old.
    Kaliyuga (Fourth Age or Iron Age) is 0.432 million years old.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga


    for the image in the wikipedia version in french

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

    Co-creative life cycles. Are just that. co-created life appearing cyclical.
    They are imagined and through the spheres manifest in all the realms imagined.
    Samsara or Karma are not traps. They are there because those that recognize patterns, talk to elders and guru's have been led to believe the cyclical nature of things.


    Stepping away or no longer participating in the cycles means the death of self and Self.
    If I think about the imaginatory nature of what we co-create I cannot think it comes about any other way that through our intent.
    Stop intending(wanting, grasping, desiring) anything and enlightenment will surely befall you.


    However that raw experience of what is, without the relief that hopes and dreams bring is a tad rough on most.
    Either way.. One is not better than the other. Both are expressions of life as it is. I would even go as far as to say that those who dare to dream are the co-creators of tomorrow. Those that choose to step away from it or become enlightened do so in favor of self destruction.


    With Love
    Eelco

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

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    Last edited by Constance; 14th November 2021 at 05:43.

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

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    Last edited by Constance; 14th November 2021 at 05:44.

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Dear Rahkyt, if what was shared by this person wasn't helpful, what is helpful?
    I only find so much usefulness in proclaiming the emptiness and uselessness of all things. It does not jibe with lived experience and serves to confuse those who might otherwise gain wisdom through work with the inner dialogue, as opposed to concepts that have little practical application.

    Unless you have experienced a satori/kensho event, it is an intellectual exercise only because the state itself is nigh beyond conception as anything other than a theoretical happenstance. Engaging in wordplay to explore being and non-being, the dichotomous nature of life beyond the material manifestation of this world, is a similar intellectual exercise that does little to help me when I must chop wood and carry water, or when I stub my toe against a non-existent rock, or must deal with other people not so intellectually enlightened, who certainly would not agree with my abstract statement of non-being.

    I appreciate the effort, and there are some wonderful statements of truth that can help those seeking these states, but the seeking itself - as well as the intellectual exercise of going down the logic rabbit hole - does nothing to bring them on. In fact, they could serve to reinforce mental forms that make achieving states of enlightenment less likely as the mind's engagement with the concepts continues. So they are word exercises and not even of the type known as a zen koan, where you can at least use the statements to bring on such a state of mental stasis that deeper forms of contemplation do become experientially available.

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    I wholeheartedly agree with you Rahkyt regarding the possibilities for people being able to have a genuine shift in consciousness and being able to transcend the duality of this world.
    Oh yes. That is an imminent and very real potentiality. Sages might say that the seeking takes you further away from it, but it is a part of our cultural understanding that we must engage the mind directly in these matters and, perhaps, in time, our intellects will imbue us with the capacity to experience kensho ourselves. It does not work that way, but it makes for good discussion and debate.

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

    Quote Nothing could be further from the truth. Karma is a Universal reality. And it's not an illusion. It's the immutable, inescapable law of cause and effect, of action having an equal and opposite reaction.
    .



    'And inaction having an equal and opposite re-inaction.'

    It is an interesting truth because it is actually not saying anything. The spaces between words are just as important as the words themselves...or are they?

    Everything has an opposite because we live confined by absolutes. We are bracketed by zero and infinity, bound by time and space. That is how we define ourselves. We observe these truths while bound to the body we inhabit. It is not ourselves we define but the container we occupy.

    This is also true of reality. We define reality in terms of the reactions of our bodies to it.

    If there is no physical reality, as dreams would suggest is the case, and this is a mindscape, a mental construct, then the definitions are the parameters of each such construct.

    It is like a giant bubble, really: A thought bubble that expands outward, as the definition elaborates more and more particulars.

    But the fundamental construct, in this analogy, is also a giant bubble - and each entity commands their own unique bubble within it.

    So although the reality is actually a froth of bubbles within an all-encompassing bubble, we only see through our own unique bubble most of the time. That is our perspective.

    If we can imagine that the definitions we believe ourselves to be are merely the descriptions of the border of our personal bubble, we can see that there is both a whole lot more inside and a whole lot more outside this circumference that has no definition and is a complete mystery.

    Only by pushing past this boundary, inward and outward, can it be understood that in fact...there is only one bubble...and there is a great deal of controversy regarding its 'definition'.

    The problem is simple...we do not know who we are and what we think we are is also incorrect. For this reason our reality seems fragmented and chaotic.


    And it is for this reason that reality can be said to be just as false as anti-reality.
    Last edited by Ernie Nemeth; 6th February 2021 at 02:00.
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

    Free will can only be as free as the mind that conceives it.

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Regarding karma.

    There is a saying,

    karma is only for those who cannot stay in the present moment


    Here is something that Brian Gerard Schaefer had to say about karma. It is brutally honest but it gets right to the heart of the matter.
    Brian Schaefer
    The Real Meaning of Karma
    April 14, 2016
    The thing about actions like cruelty, racism, bullying, killing etc., is that there is a point within Consciousness where the perpetrator becomes the victim. Therefore, EVERYTHING you do, you are actually doing to yourself.

    Understanding this negates the need to ever talk about, debate or argue over anything that is not honouring this Truth - it all just goes without saying. The basis of this understanding is also the key to knowing how to truly Love, and why the essence of Love is our True Nature - and the only thing we need to express.
    We are already everything we need to be. This is what the writer in my OP is referring to. We just need it drawn out of us and nurtured and nourished. All that stuff about having to do shadow work etc is completely inappropriate to who we are as beings; all we have to do is put back what is missing in our lives.



    Karma in my humble opinion has changed much of it's meaning over the years.
    For those staying in the moment, Stubbing ones toe unto the imaginary table leg will usually result in strangely hopping about for a few seconds whilst noises escape through your mouth.



    Karma is nothing more than this interplay between cause and effect.
    To imbue a form of intelligent reward and punishment mechanism on top of the simplicity of karma I think is wrong.
    There is something to be said for a larger karmic cycle, but getting at the heart of that mechanism requires observation not conjecture.


    Seeing how the mind reacts to the (6)senses in meditation (thoughts being the sensory produce of the mind as seeing is the sensory produce of the eyes for example) will make this simple law clear.


    With Love
    Eelco

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

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    Last edited by Constance; 14th November 2021 at 05:44.

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

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    Last edited by Constance; 14th November 2021 at 05:44.

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    But I overrode that intuition and the end result was that I cut my finger.

    However, it was all perfect suffering

    Our eyes and our ears can be fooled and so observation is not the only tool required.

    We can have degrees of realizations around something but there are no degrees of awareness. We are either aware of something or we are not. For example, we are either aware of the fingers on our hands or we are not.

    Regarding your comment here
    To imbue a form of intelligent reward and punishment mechanism on top of the simplicity of karma I think is wrong.
    Can you say more about what you mean by to imbue a form of intelligent reward and punishment.
    Who, what, where, how, when. Thanks.


    As I mentioned in my previous post, cause and effect is an intellectual understanding of the world. You can read what I shared here.


    Regarding your comment here
    Seeing how the mind reacts to the (6)senses in meditation (thoughts being the sensory produce of the mind as seeing is the sensory produce of the eyes for example) will make this simple law clear.
    What you are describing there sounds more like visualizations as opposed to meditation.

    But let me ask you a question regarding visualizing, WHO is observing the mind when it reacts to what is being seen by the mind?

    When one cuts a finger, there is the sensation and the bleeding.
    Suffering only enters the mind if one let's it. It is the mind reliving the pain it already experienced... ergo suffering..


    I wasn't describing visualizations. When lights hit the eye, the mind experiences seeing. when the hand rest on a table the mind experiences feeling(touch), when certain particles contact receptors in the nose the mind experiences smell. When mind becomes aware of all these sensations it experiences thought.
    No visualization there...




    In many schools of thought it seems to me that Karma is some sort of equalizer causing one to experience good as a reward for past deeds or experiencing suffering as a punishment.
    Those grander concepts are what I mean by imbuing Karma with these ideas.
    It's not about punishment or reward. It is about simple causes and their effects.



    If I die with some remorse or an unfulfilled desire.
    Those will be the cause for a life that allows for the remorse to be let go and the desire to be fulfilled.
    That is what is.



    I will not experience that life even though one could say it is my karma being played out.

    There is no fault, or reward or punishment there, Just the universe reacting on our intentions... As it does...

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    Default Re: Samsara, Karma & How To Escape

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