Parenting

[jimrich]

Hi Gang:

WARNING: I am not a parent.

In therapy, I came to see some truths about how my brother and I were raised so these "truths" have given me quite a different view or concept of parents and parenting BUT, I've discovered the hard way that these "truths' are not shared by many parents and are quite often RESENTED by most of them.

I would have thought that everyone, including parents, would happily accept these truths and use them to improve their own parenting or parenting in general but I've seen a very serious and stubborn resistance to acknowledging any of these "truths".
I keep calling them "truths" because they challenge and overturn certain socially accepted "truths" about families that are actually LIES! Lies created for and by parents to serve their own interests and help these parents stay comfortably with their LIES while they damage their innocent, unsuspecting children with very inadequate parenting that these parents are convinced is GOOD parenting.

This discovery came to me while examining my own upbringing and parenting under the microscope of ACOA (Adult Children of Alcoholics) theory and revelations and then was expanded by the works of John Bradshaw, Alice Miller and Susan Forward in their ground breaking books about families and parenting (google them).

At first the truths from ACA and these authors didn't register but, since I am not a parent, and have no need to defend my parenting self or other parents in what I call The Parents Club, I was free to see and accept their observations along with my own observations, which held more significance for me than stuff from books and tapes.
I began to understand what happened in our family and in the families of my parents plus what has happened in my sibling's families and my late wife's family with her two rather messed up kids. Alice Miller helped me see what went wrong more than any other author.
I guess I'm opening this thread to get some input and insights into the parenting and family experiences of others who may want to talk about family and parenting stuff that most folk avoid like the plague. It's touchy stuff so, I don't expect others to happily or enthusiastically join in this discussion. All I can say is that, a little truth and HONESTY might help some struggling parent give their kids a better and happier upbringing than I got so, if this thread helps a kid ........GOOD.

In the beginning of my efforts to understand my self and my family, I discovered that we were all ABUSED - not "disciplined or straightened out" - ABUSED, in the name of proper and necessary parenting!
I finally confronted my mom (dad was dead and gone) about why us boys were so severely beaten and she very smugly said, "Well! you both DESERVED IT!"
I was not prepared to respond just then but now I'd tell her that we DESERVED their help and support - not a vengeful, angry BEATING! But beating kids was very popular back then (late 40s) so it was never considered abuse by anyone, least of all the parents! (When I say "beating", I mean BEATING - not merely paddling of the butt, swatting or hand slapping - although that often came with the BEATING!)

So early abuse was the issue that I had long struggled with and that nobody, including my 1st guru, ever recognized.
After I came to see and understand what early abuse does to a person or animal (PTSD), my whole life came into focus and most if not all of my weird and anti-social behaviors suddenly made sense.
I (the ego) could never figure out why I was so different and often stranger than my older brother and younger sister but memories and psychological studies finally explained ALL of it to my current satisfaction.
Although personality disorders and other genetic/natural things may explain my weird and "loner" behaviors, BAD parenting easily explained it all for me. I won't bore you with how bad parenting contributed to my many years of bed wetting, lonely isolation, fear of people, love for animals, fear of women and sex, doormat codependency, anti-socialness, molestation of animals, sadism, OCD and ADHD style behaviors and a huge array of other "dysfunctional" stuff but I can now see how most of that STARTED with BAD parenting more than any other factors and I can also see, with very limited evidence, how and why my parents were set up to be as they were thanks to the BAD parenting they received.
I believe that any shrink or professional, who might be in this forum, can easily demonstrate that my conclusions are all wrong and that my grand parents, parents and us kids and my siblings kids are ALL victims of personality disorders and nature but NOT bad parenting so, come-on, professionals and PROVE me wrong!
As for me, it's all so clear and obvious including these so-called disorders and genetics which may have played a significant part in my parent's and my behaviors so I'm not saying it's ALL bad parenting but NOT nature.
In my family it was most likely a unique mixture of Nature and Nurture so I hope that takes me off the hook of being a FANATIC.
My parents survived ABUSE, their parents survived ABUSE, us kids survived ABUSE and at least my brothers son, an alcoholic, survived ABUSE so maybe ABUSE is not the worst thing that can happen in life. But I am currently very happy to finally be shown that bad parenting and abuse was and maybe still is the main reason my life was so bad into my late 40s.
If its all just a spiritual thing and this is just the cosmic play, I'm OK with that too. What the heck, its been an interesting, if painful, trip so far so maybe I need to stop inspecting parents and parenting and just HAPPILY go with the flow.
I am so very grateful that I never became a (bad) parent who messed up some kid's life, although I may have messed up a few of our pet's lives.
I welcome your comments, opinions and perspectives on parenting - yours or anyone's, but I DON'T WELCOME any personal attacks or insulting put downs just because you resent my opinions on the subject of this thread.
Report it if you are upset and hurt by anything that is written here!
jim

[Sueanne47]

Hi Jimrich,

I'm sad that you have been living in fear when you were young...that must have been the most terrible experience. Those memories *will never go away* not ever, that is why souls incarnate into new bodies all the time....until they have learnt from 'school earth' to evolve and finally turn a corner and be kind and loving souls, then the soul can move on to another dimension. My Nan was also beaten with a belt, she was very jealous of anyone being happy in their life, because she was unhappy as a child and thought anyone "dont have the right to smile".

All you can do is come to terms with the experience, but try to not let it consume you, or you will permanently be reliving this nightmare every second of your life. Why should your parents ruin the rest of your time you have left?

I gained strength by listening to Native American teachings, and it calmed my spirit and I love life now so much that I'm not in this 'hurt prison' anymore.

Blessings to you...

Sue

[Awakening2014]

Your story touches me deeply. Thank you for sharing your story. I am an adult child of an alcoholic as well. Becoming a parent was one of the biggest motivators for change in myself. I have had a fear throughout most of my life that I would somehow damage any child I had. Learning more about cognition, spirituality, and how a child's mind functions has shown me how we are hurting our youth. We are showing our children how to think and what is important. I believe that we do have genetic memories and that our genes can increase the chances of certain traits and illnesses manifesting under the right conditions, but I believe that teaching a child coping mechanisms is paramount. I don't have any animosity toward my family now. I see how they were raised in similar conditions and that they could not teach me what they did not know. I believe most of my past and many peoples mental problems are a lack of coping mechanisms. We need to take our own minds, hearts, and lives in our own hands, do the great work in transforming ourselves. It is so worth it! I only wish this had been instilled into me when I was younger as it would have been so much easier.

[Sueanne47]

Posted by Awakening2014 (here)
I only wish this had been instilled into me when I was younger as it would have been so much easier.

Thank you Awakening2014, My mum said to me when she was alive "I'm not a saint you know" but I do wish my Mum & Dad had compassion enough to see that 'they dont know it all'. Hell, wouldnt that have been great to have lived a childhood full of immense love & kindness?

My brothers had stronger ego's than I did, so Dad had to keep them in line with a firm hand, but I was of a sensitive nature and didnt like Dad being agressive, and not being able to talk to him about anything. Every time I tried to talk to him he would just say: "dont worry about it" ~ I dont WORRY!!!! I just wanna chat that's all..

Sue

[jimrich]

Posted by Awakening2014 (here)
Your story touches me deeply. Thank you for sharing your story. I am an adult child of an alcoholic as well. Becoming a parent was one of the biggest motivators for change in myself. I have had a fear throughout most of my life that I would somehow damage any child I had. Learning more about cognition, spirituality, and how a child's mind functions has shown me how we are hurting our youth.

On the very rare occasions where I've found the courage to speak with a (defense, belligerent) parent about their "parenting", I usually tell the parent to recall their own Childhood (most adults don't or won't) to see what you wanted but didn't get from your own parents and what you missed out on due to bad family situations. I stress that I am not talking about poverty or unfortunate illness. Most of them just stare at me as if I've lost my mind!!
I am NOT a parent so, theoretically, I have no right to say anything to any parent BUT I was a child and, as a child, I have vivid memories of what I wanted, didn't want, loved/feared, would have preferred from my very troubled parents and wish I could have done, as a little kid, to HELP my parents and our messed up family so, if I were a parent now, I'd at least try to give my kids the love, respect and HELP that I was not given from my own parents. I can't say that they "knew better" or had acceptable "excuses" for their abusive behaviors (they were also kind and loving from time to time - just NOT enough!) but I definitely knew that my dad was SADISTIC, which I can find no excuse or explanation for other than a "genetic" flaw in him. The mysterious thing is that our apparently "normal" mom NEVER confronted our sick dad about his SADISTIC treatment of his oldest son UNTIL it personally bothered her so, my child's conclusion is that they both KNEW BETTER - but just didn't give a damn!
So, my best and perhaps ONLY recommendation to any parent is to remember what it was like for you as a kid and if things were just fine, raise your kids like you were raised and if things were NOT so fine, look for a better, happier and more loving way to raise you own little prisoners.
Our home was like a Prison Camp being run by 2 very abusive, threatening, mean and TERRIFYING guards! When the two mean guards were away for the night, they left the other even meaner guard on duty - our older brother! He and I had some unbelievably vicious fist fights - the one thing that dad did teach us to do!!!
I paint our life as Bleak as possible so that I'm not tempted to make excuses for or white-wash our sick parents just so I'll LOOK GOOD to judgmental, critical others who want to say their parents were PERFECT when it's obvious that their parents were NOT perfect.
I could outline all the wonderful, loving, helpful, pleasant, heroic, noble, classy and shining examples of excellent parenting in my family BUT the negatives way outweighed the positives so, just because they did a few good things, does not require me to magically overlook and ignore the bad things as most folks, friends, therapists and even Recovery friends WANT me to do.
The anger, hate and pain that forced me into therapy will not be satisfied or silenced just because my parents: got me a bike, a clarinet, new shoes, a haircut, took me out camping, fed me, gave me some $$$, said I have talent, let me off WITHOUT punishment when I made some BIG mistakes, etc.
As good as all of that is, it still never overturned the pain, fear and HATRED that ultimately emerged in therapy when I was finally free to face, honor and VENT the damaged feelings I had bottled up during those years of fear of dad and misplaced respect for our mother.
Theoretically, I should have been able to vent my anger and sorrow in a few days and then get right back to FORGIVENESS and JOY as one therapist insisted but, I had a lot of blistering feelings that he didn't want to hear about or confront. His solution: "SMILE, JIM! ..... Your parents can't hurt you now!" I "smiled" to please him but my RAGE didn't just lay down and die to make him happy.
It's strange just how few people there are, including professionals, who simply do not understand nor recognize the existence of these hidden, buried feeling/memories which is why it took so long for doctors to finally acknowledge and then address Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in many emotionally damaged Veterans returning from battle! I finally see why. These folks who won't acknowledge hidden, painful feelings are doing their best to keep their own inner pains hidden so anyone expressing feelings THREATENS THEM. They don't want some expressive victim to trigger their own bottled up pain so they do everything possible to SILENCE anyone bold enough to express their: hurt, anger, sorrow, misery, fear, bitterness and even their affection and love! My late wife and I were often CHASTISED for openly kissing each other at family gatherings or in public!

We are showing our children how to think and what is important. I believe that we do have genetic memories and that our genes can increase the chances of certain traits and illnesses manifesting under the right conditions, but I believe that teaching a child coping mechanisms is paramount.

You are making an interesting point that I didn't see until going into therapy.
When I enthusiastically left home, right after high school (no college for me!), I felt free as a bird but soon realized that I was extremely unprepared and ill-equipped to face life in the world on my own! I just had no idea what to do, how to live or take care of myself and got into a lot of serious and violent conflicts with impatient others who resented my "behavior".
My bother, who was a little better at making friends than me, was living with a single adult male (he was not gay) down in Hawthorne, CA so his adult friend took me over to the Employment Office where I got a "real" job since I was going nowhere in music and didn't even know how to "get anywhere" as a musician! Whew, suddenly I was making money and soon found a bachelor pad for myself but I was a long way from being able to live like everybody else! Another adult friend of my older brother, who had been out on his own for a year but was living on the floor of his friend's GARAGE, came to see me and showed me how to cook some hamburger on a skillet! I needed a lot of training that should have happened back home!
Mom "sort of" taught us to cook at home but our parents did literally everything for us and we worked at home on THEIR farm so neither of us boys had any real work experience outside of our home/prison. In therapy, I could see how mentally/emotionally challenged (handi-capped) my brother and I were due to inadequate parenting which FAILED to prepare us for life in the real world. I wouldn't have thought so back then but now its all so clear. We were not given adequate training, preparations, or hands on experiences with real life, money, socialization, setting goals, girls, sex, etc. so we blasted off into life like two crippled ducks with broken wings and unhealthy attitudes (Shame).
We had a small band in high school and our guitar player was a "man of the world" who had been out on his own for a few years and, when we went to cafes or the homes of his adult friends, he would be shocked and completely embarrassed by our "weird" and often offensive behaviors. We were absolutely embarrassing and enraging to many adults we met even though we thought we were just "normal" kids having some fun! We were 2 social CRIPPLES!
Our guitar man tried his best to help us "grow up", introduced us to a few girls and become socially normal but he just could not overcome the inadequate conditioning that we already had from our pathetic parents up to that point.

I don't have any animosity toward my family now. I see how they were raised in similar conditions and that they could not teach me what they did not know.

LOL, I tried that "logic" and those "excuses" to absolve my parents of their pathetic inadequacies but somehow it just doesn't work for me. I am not as bitter as I was before about their faulty parenting but somehow the concept that 'they didn't know any better' just doesn't sit well with me. They were both very skilled, socially adept, knew how to handle money, dad built houses FROM SCRATCH, mom was a master cook and homemaker, they had lots of loving friends and were usually well groomed, well mannered and did SEX so - WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO THEIR KIDS????
Well now I know what happened.
Their was not enough love, respect nor INTEREST in the kids so we were never allowed to learn or be part of the many special things our parents had or could do! My brother was closer to mom and dad than I ever was and our little sister was their treasured favorite so they sent her to college since us two Knuckle-heads didn't deserve a college education! I believe our parents did KNOW BETTER - they just didn't give a damn!

I believe most of my past and many peoples mental problems are a lack of coping mechanisms.

I now believe its a LACK OF LOVE and self respect. Our parents did not invite nor welcome us into their personal lives because they did not love nor respect them selves and their SELF CONTEMPT (Shame) expressed itself as a rejection of their two sons but not their daughter.
Their parents and their parents all suffered with SELF CONTEMPT (Shame) which my dad's entire family dealt with by DRINKING but nothing could save them from the sickening ravages of Self Contempt and a significant LACK of love and respect so that is what they passed on to my parents and my parents passed on to (some) of their kids and my older brother passed on to his alcoholic son - SELF CONTEMPT (Shame)!
With the very same "life patterns", my late wife's 2 kids are very successful and look real good on the surface but, one of them is a falling down drunk who has had 3 husbands and a few boyfriends and was molested by the 1st husband of my late wife's sister and 2 daughters of her own who DO NOT LIKE her. The other girl has obvious emotional issues so, because I know a few things about their lousy childhood, it is obvious to me that my late wife, her alcoholic husband and their two girls are all victims of SELF CONTEMPT (Shame)! The same patterns of Self Contempt & Shame run through my late wife's siblings as well, even though most of them work, make money and look "good" on the surface but lurking under all of that apparent success and prosperity are visible threads of insecurity, anger, sorrow, fear and SELF CONTEMPT (Shame)! All because of a significant LACK of love in the early years for all of them and my entire family as well.
We are all victims of a "Love shortage" but some of us have survived or are surviving to finally find love and let it come into our hearts and lives while others deal with their Self Contempt by DRINKING and other ineffective coping mechanisms!
The only "coping mechanism" I ever needed and sometimes still do is SELF RESPECT or Self Love and it's absolutely incredible how much of that is missing or lacking in MOST societies. It's even more incredible that us humans, as intelligent and skilled as we are, cannot see that SELF CONTEMPT & Shame (along with so-called "disorders") is at the heart of most violence, all crime and social violations.
Are we really that DUMB?
Well, I believe my parents were "that dumb"!
I never would have figured out that Self Contempt & Shame was and still is my basic problem without the help of psychology because Spirituality doesn't even acknowledge it.
Spiritually tells us the ego (or devil) is the problem and we need to get rid of it and get re-connected with god.
I noticed that re-connecting with god may or may not get rid of my ego BUT it sure makes me feel better about my self which is just another version of positive self worth or a reduction of my life long habit of SELF CONTEMPT & Shame and I recall that my parents would often express joy and happiness (after church) whenever their life long habits of SELF CONTEMPT & Shame were somehow suspended or briefly dropped.
Many systems talk about Self Love but very few offer folks a practical and doable method to reduce Self Contempt & Shame so self love is easily overwhelmed and killed by the life long habit of Shame which usually disguises itself from it's victims. My parents seemed to Exude self confidence and self worth but, thanks to psychology, their patterns of Self Contempt & Shame are now GLARINGLY obvious starting with dad's extreme racism and mom's blatantly low self worth (Shame).

[jimrich]

Posted by Sueanne47 (here)
Hell, wouldnt that have been great to have lived a childhood full of immense love & kindness?

.... instead of a life of FEAR, anger and Shame!

My brothers had stronger ego's than I did, so Dad had to keep them in line with a firm hand,

LOL, ..... meaning he beat the crap out of them to break their spirits and control them as he wished! My dad only hit me a few times (to please him self) after which I was very easy to control but he savagely beat, whipped and belted my older bother which frightened me & our little sister to the max, so dad had TOTAL control of his terrified kids and wife with his "firm hand"!

but I was of a sensitive nature and didnt like Dad being agressive, and not being able to talk to him about anything. Every time I tried to talk to him he would just say: "dont worry about it" ~ I dont WORRY!!!! I just wanna chat that's all..

Your dad sounds like my dad. Were you ever able to "chat" with your mom? Did your mom EVER stand up to him in defense of her own children???
LOL, mine NEVER did!
My dad was the absolute Ruler of his roost which he effortlessly ruled with a "firm hand"!

[Flash]

Abuse should not happen.... but it does
Neglect should not happen... but it does

So what are we going to do about it, when it concerns us directly?

Analysing the situation you were in is fine to help to understand. Admitting the emotions that arised from those situation - without drilling in them - is paramount, because it is the path to emotional health. It allows us to see our shadows, so that it does not pass the generation threshold anylonger, it stops to us.

And what else? The blaming games works only for a little while. Afterwards, we are left with not energy because we remain the the victim archetype.

Plus, one often forgets the environmental/cultural backdrops our parents were caught in (ex: very religious education using the ruler on your finger to make you understand, forgiving children the right to respond to adults, having the strap if you dared playing doctor, etc. which were all normal and done to "raise" us, like you raise a bunch of chicken or cows. Love was not paramount, because there were no time for loving demonstrations nor for patient listening - survival was a must and a prime thinking and socially, your "bad" behavior would have to be corrected for your own integration).

I personnaly came to a place where I admit that nobody was at fault, neither my parents, nor me.

So that forgiveness could ensue.

To tell the truth, I truly understood the difficulties my parents had while "raising" their children when I had one of my own, at a late age (so I knew what life was without children). Gosh was I surprised of the difficulties, the time consuming dedication needed, the always all around doubts (I am doing right or wrong), and the absolute tremendous amount of love I could generate from within. Educating and loving children is much more difficult than one may think before having any.

Therefore, I forgave my parents for their mistakes - I tried not to repeat them - if they were mistakes, which I now doubt at times (full responsibility for my own choice of parents before incarnating) and hopefully my daughter will forgive what she will perceive as my own mistakes.

At 78, why not having the rest of your life with pleasure, joy and astonishment at the beauty of the life adventure you went through?

[Sueanne47]

Posted by jimrich (here)
Were you ever able to "chat" with your mom? Did your mom EVER stand up to him in defense of her own children???

If Dad hit me, Mum said "well you shouldnt answer back" sometimes she said "Oh Les, dont!" when hitting me. Speaking about this is making me well up.

Mum was scared of Dad most of the time even up to the time he died, she loved him and he could be kind & generous, but she didnt like his nasty streak. Only after he died, me & Mum could now talk freely, when he was alive he didnt like us talking. He was in the D Day landings and spoke very little of it.

[jimrich]

Posted by Flash (here)
Abuse should not happen.... but it does
Neglect should not happen... but it does

Understanding should happen but often doesn't!

So what are we going to do about it, when it concerns us directly?

I don't know who/what this "we" is but I intend to understand Abuse, Neglect and other negatives in my life and then just do the best I can from now on.

Analysing the situation you were in is fine to help to understand. Admitting the emotions that arised from those situation - without drilling in them

I don't understand what "drilling" is. Do you mean without WALLOWING in them, like someone stuck in the mud? Sometimes it takes a little, temporary drilling or wallowing to get to a deeper understanding of something and most folks can't or won't go that deep - it's just too painful or frightening for them!

- is paramount, because it is the path to emotional health. It allows us to see our shadows, so that it does not pass the generation threshold anylonger, it stops to us.

I agree that it is ONE OF the paths to emotional health which then might benefit future generations.

And what else? The blaming games works only for a little while. Afterwards, we are left with not energy because we remain the the victim archetype.

Yep, you (or we) sure don't want to get stuck in the "blame game" and loose sight of the Solution which is to overcome early trauma and/or PTSD.

Plus, one often forgets the environmental/cultural backdrops our parents were caught in (ex: very religious education using the ruler on your finger to make you understand, forgiving children the right to respond to adults, having the strap if you dared playing doctor, etc. which were all normal and done to "raise" us, like you raise a bunch of chicken or cows. Love was not paramount, because there were no time for loving demonstrations nor for patient listening - survival was a must and a prime thinking and socially, your "bad" behavior would have to be corrected for your own integration).

I suppose one (usually a parent) can and will come up with all kinds of: reasons, excuses, explanations, LIES, DENIAL and/or whatever it takes to let parents and parenting off the hook of personal responsibility but none of that helped me come to terms with what happened to my parents, their parents and their parents or to us kids so I am focusing on what I can do now to undo the mental/emotional damages (to myself) and go on living a better, happier and MORE responsible life than the "stuck in Denial" generations that came before me. I am no way as successful, hard working, productive or BIG as those who came before but I sure am more HONEST than any of them ever were.

I personnaly came to a place where I admit that nobody was at fault, neither my parents, nor me. So that forgiveness could ensue.

Yep, finding "fault" is just the first step. Finding the TRUTH is the final step.

Gosh was I surprised of the difficulties, the time consuming dedication needed, the always all around doubts (I am doing right or wrong),

LOL, I seriously doubt that my parents ever questioned their parenting styles!

and the absolute tremendous amount of love I could generate from within. Educating and loving children is much more difficult than one may think before having any.

OK, it's "difficult" .... so what? Is that an excuse to be inadequate?

Therefore, I forgave my parents for their mistakes - I tried not to repeat them - if they were mistakes, which I now doubt at times (full responsibility for my own choice of parents before incarnating)

Do you know for a fact that you "chose those parents" before entering this side of life?
I've seen that concept elsewhere!
If this is some FACT, then nobody in the entire universe is entitled to complain about the childhood that they selected for them selves.
I'm glad that you are not repeating your own parent's mistakes that were not mistakes, LOL and that you have forgiven them even though you picked them out before your birth.

and hopefully my daughter will forgive what she will perceive as my own mistakes.

Well, if she picked you and your wife out before hand, what would be the problem since all of your are getting what you came here for? I don't get it. If I picked out my very dysfunctional parents before my birth, we all got what we wanted and NEEDED so who's to: blame, resent, question, forgive, copy, worship, etc. We should be one big HAPPY family!

At 78, why not having the rest of your life with pleasure, joy and astonishment at the beauty of the life adventure you went through?

LOL, I am!
Why would you think that I am NOT pleased, joyful and astonished at the beauty of life?
In fact, understanding my rotten past is actually enhancing the thrill and beauty of life in the present moment so a nasty past does not consume my here and now attentions but my past still holds a certain interest or fascination for me as an indicator of how good or bad I'm doing right now.
I know it bothers you and many other parents, for folks like me to speak the truth about our very faulty parents and family but please don't take it Personally. I am not out to blame or attack you!
It's quite possible that some parent might find help and benefits from an open, honest discussion of parenting, childhood and families.
I am not a parent but I was the parent to a few dogs and cats and I made a LOT OF mistakes with them before getting into therapy to learn about my flaws and, if I had it to do over, I'd be a WAY BETTER parent to my pets than I was back then. If they chose me before being born, so be it - and maybe all of us got something useful from the relationship. They got to see what unlovable fools some humans are and I got to see how noble, kind and lovable some animals are.

Perhaps the spiritual answer is the best one = "What will be will be!" What is is supposed to be (for whatever reason or purpose Divinity sets it all up this way)!
Abuse should not happen.... but it does ... because it SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN!
Neglect should not happen... but it does.... because it's MEANT TO HAPPEN!
And Solutions happen because Divinity wants it that way!
All of this is Divinity's stage-play so have a ball and enjoy your cosmic show - it's all you ..... you are: Divinity!

[TargeT]

Posted by jimrich (here)
I am so very grateful that I never became a (bad) parent who messed up some kid's life, although I may have messed up a few of our pet's lives.

so your life is messed up and it's your parents fault?


I'm glad for all the challenges I've faced in my life, they've made me who I am; even if I wasn't the biggest fan of all of them.

[jimrich]

Posted by Sueanne47 (here)

Posted by jimrich (here)
Were you ever able to "chat" with your mom? Did your mom EVER stand up to him in defense of her own children???

If Dad hit me, Mum said "well you shouldnt answer back" sometimes she said "Oh Les, dont!" when hitting me. Speaking about this is making me well up.

Most folks CANNOT go here because it just hurts too much or scares them to speak the truth about their beloved or feared parents!
My (spineless) mom just said that we "deserved what we asked for" but I somehow knew that she was getting secret pleasures from dad's sadistic brutality!
They were both the 1st born in two very large families where they HAD TO help raise their siblings and I now believe they both secretly RESENTED children including us 2 boys and maybe even their cherished little girl.

Mum was scared of Dad most of the time even up to the time he died, she loved him and he could be kind & generous, but she didnt like his nasty streak. Only after he died, me & Mum could now talk freely, when he was alive he didnt like us talking. He was in the D Day landings and spoke very little of it.

I feel very bad for and about both of your parents and can see the possibility for hidden, repressed trauma in them. Your dad's PTS war experiences and your mom's fear of him, which may go back to something in her own childhood.
My mom loudly proclaimed that she was NEVER afraid of our violent, abusive dad but I know she was. Denial and Lies no longer fool me!
When I asked my aunt (dad's sister) why our mom never stood up for us, she just said "Your dad would have KNOCKED her block off -everyone in the family was afraid of your dad!"
That made sense and I can see that mom sure didn't want dad to hit her but it was OK with her if he beat the living crap out of and TERRORIZED her defenseless kids! Her pathetic cowardice bothers me, even now, way more than our sadistic dad's violence!!
But don't worry, folks, I'm getting over it!

[jimrich]

Posted by TargeT (here)
so your life is messed up and it's your parents fault?

Nope.

I'm glad for all the challenges I've faced in my life, they've made me who I am; even if I wasn't the biggest fan of all of them.

Good for you.

[jimrich]

Parents out there.....pleased don't take any of this PERSONALLY. Nobody is out to blame, shame or attack you. This is about UNDERSTANDING more than just whining, complaining, weeping, raging, finding fault and assigning BLAME!

[TargeT]

Posted by jimrich (here)
Parents out there.....pleased don't take any of this PERSONALLY. Nobody is out to blame, shame or attack you. This is about UNDERSTANDING more than just whining, complaining, weeping, raging, finding fault and assigning BLAME!

Pretty hard to understand when you've never been a parent though, right?

Last time I checked there's absolutely no way to experience giving 20+ years of your life to someone who: can't make good decisions (and often makes bad ones), is mostly selfish (and unaware of it), has absolutely zero life experience yet wants their ideas to be equally acknowledged, for a period of time is physically incapable of caring for themselves & needs your constant attention, will push you emotionally (just because they can, unconscious boundary testing), might test you physically as well (none of my boys have yet), will mirror back to you that which you least like about yourself & in the end will be the sweetest most loving and enjoyable experience you've ever had.


Pretty hard to wrap your head around that one "from the outside" & even harder to try and retroactively judge what was going on (because,,, a LOT is going on, all the time!)... I'm not sure how one can understand it with out going through it.

I'm a proud member of the "Parent club"... I view it the same way I view my membership in the "Deployed to a Combat Zone" club... you just can't understand it with out "being there"... what single person makes that kind of sacrifice?....

[jimrich]

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by jimrich (here)
Parents out there.....pleased don't take any of this PERSONALLY. Nobody is out to blame, shame or attack you. This is about UNDERSTANDING more than just whining, complaining, weeping, raging, finding fault and assigning BLAME!

Pretty hard to understand when you've never been a parent though, right?

WRONG!

Last time I checked there's absolutely no way to experience giving 20+ years of your life to someone who: can't make good decisions (and often makes bad ones),

...thanks to inadequate parenting.

is mostly selfish (and unaware of it), has absolutely zero life experience yet wants their ideas to be equally acknowledged,

...thanks to inadequate parenting.

for a period of time is physically incapable of caring for themselves & needs your constant attention,

....which requires adequate parenting or at least a caring nanny.

will push you emotionally (just because they can, unconscious boundary testing),

...the consequence of inadequate parenting!

might test you physically as well (none of my boys have yet),

...thanks to inadequate parenting. LOL, I now believe that our dad left all of us because he could see the day coming very soon when his oldest boy would take him out and, with dad's bad back, he sure didn't want the kid he had so savagely beat up to BREAK his back or worse! I would never would have had the guts to take my ROTTEN father out but I sure wanted to - after therapy and losing my dread fear of him. I seriously wanted to go find him and MURDER him with my bare hands!

will mirror back to you that which you least like about yourself & in the end will be the sweetest most loving and enjoyable experience you've ever had.

Cool!

Pretty hard to wrap your head around that one "from the outside" & even harder to try and retroactively judge what was going on (because,,, a LOT is going on, all the time!)... I'm not sure how one can understand it with out going through it.

My siblings and I went through it.

I'm a proud member of the "Parent club"... I view it the same way I view my membership in the "Deployed to a Combat Zone" club... you just can't understand it with out "being there"... what single person makes that kind of sacrifice?....

IMO, anyone who sees parenting as a "sacrifice" should never be a parent. Parenting is an HONOR, IMO but I've seen a lot of parents, including mine, who saw it as a sacrifice, burden, disappointment, pain, loss of freedom, invasion, misfortune and many other negatives attached to the curse of parenting.
They could speak of: love, respect, joy, pride and happiness with their kids BUT their attitudes and punitive/judgmental behaviors gave them away so I always knew that they both RESENTED their kids.

[Flash]

If you want to have a thread where truly bad parenting is discussed, welcome, I am all for it. There is much too much bad parenting around and it has to be discussed. And NO as a parent, I am not scared, troubled, or anything alike to discuss parenting and bad parenting -

However, your response to Target when he described his 20 years of parenting, having had to go through stupid teenager time (them not being good at decision making or pushing thier parents emotionally or testing in many ways, is such a good description of what happens with children, that naming it as bad parenting is at the minimum arrogant, at the maximum totally ignorant of what parenting is about.

For heaven sake, at least read books about it and believe what the experts are telling on parenting, if you have not experienced it yourself. And stop judging others on something you do not know much about.

Any parent who has had teenagers knows that what Target described is a commonality, part of life with children. EVen good parents knows this. You are here showing ignorance while telling parents they are scared of discussion. What a misjudgement and missing the point altogether!!!

Instead of having this negative attitudes towards all parents as you seem to have, why not discussing the real problems such as "what is the impact of having been raised by an alcoholic dad" or "how can one change parenting from violent parenting to loving parenting". This kind of thread would be much more productive it seems to me.

And

anyone who sees parenting as a sacrifice should not be a parent

: what about sacrificing for the honor, as a Samourai would do? Sacrifice does not mean burden by the way, it means giving up on one's own needs to provide first for somebody else. You are kidding us with those blatantly false assumptions aren't you.

Parenting, good parenting, extraordinary parenting, is filled with sacrifice. Without sacrifice, you end up with bad parenting.

So you are telling us that your parents were disappointed, seeing their children as a burden, feeling invaded, etc. You are right, in that generation, children were a burden because everything was based on survival, and too many children would burden the wallet and the survival potential of the whole as well as the feeling of freedom from young parents. Plus, women - and men - often had unwanted children and consequently unwanted marriages (marrying the one they did not like and making life as tolerable as possible, your mom's case by the way it seems).

You say that parenting should be about love, respect, joy, pride and happiness - yes, true, with the sacrifices needed and involved, with some stong values involved so that the child has a post against which grow.

Gosh, you hated your parent and still do. No problems there, if they were bad. Why not just say it and then

Get out of it before death gets you, and live.

Now, if your aim is to have a tread about parenting, and not about whining with the "me me me I did not get what I expected I deserved as parents" teenage attitude, well, it is not quite interesting.

A thread on parenting would be however.

Target: I will come back with a thread on overweight and its causes, scientifically based, so that false beliefs can be eradicated from your system, as soon as i have time lol

Posted by jimrich (here)

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by jimrich (here)
Parents out there.....pleased don't take any of this PERSONALLY. Nobody is out to blame, shame or attack you. This is about UNDERSTANDING more than just whining, complaining, weeping, raging, finding fault and assigning BLAME!

Pretty hard to understand when you've never been a parent though, right?

WRONG!

Last time I checked there's absolutely no way to experience giving 20+ years of your life to someone who: can't make good decisions (and often makes bad ones),

...thanks to inadequate parenting.

is mostly selfish (and unaware of it), has absolutely zero life experience yet wants their ideas to be equally acknowledged,

...thanks to inadequate parenting.

for a period of time is physically incapable of caring for themselves & needs your constant attention,

....which requires adequate parenting or at least a caring nanny.

will push you emotionally (just because they can, unconscious boundary testing),

...the consequence of inadequate parenting!

might test you physically as well (none of my boys have yet),

...thanks to inadequate parenting. LOL, I now believe that our dad left all of us because he could see the day coming very soon when his oldest boy would take him out and, with dad's bad back, he sure didn't want the kid he had so savagely beat up to BREAK his back or worse! I would never would have had the guts to take my ROTTEN father out but I sure wanted to - after therapy and losing my dread fear of him. I seriously wanted to go find him and MURDER him with my bare hands!

will mirror back to you that which you least like about yourself & in the end will be the sweetest most loving and enjoyable experience you've ever had.

Cool!

Pretty hard to wrap your head around that one "from the outside" & even harder to try and retroactively judge what was going on (because,,, a LOT is going on, all the time!)... I'm not sure how one can understand it with out going through it.

My siblings and I went through it.

I'm a proud member of the "Parent club"... I view it the same way I view my membership in the "Deployed to a Combat Zone" club... you just can't understand it with out "being there"... what single person makes that kind of sacrifice?....

IMO, anyone who sees parenting as a "sacrifice" should never be a parent. Parenting is an HONOR, IMO but I've seen a lot of parents, including mine, who saw it as a sacrifice, burden, disappointment, pain, loss of freedom, invasion, misfortune and many other negatives attached to the curse of parenting.
They could speak of: love, respect, joy, pride and happiness with their kids BUT their attitudes and punitive/judgmental behaviors gave them away so I always knew that they both RESENTED their kids.

[TargeT]

Posted by jimrich (here)

Posted by TargeT (here)

Posted by jimrich (here)
Parents out there.....pleased don't take any of this PERSONALLY. Nobody is out to blame, shame or attack you. This is about UNDERSTANDING more than just whining, complaining, weeping, raging, finding fault and assigning BLAME!

Pretty hard to understand when you've never been a parent though, right?

WRONG!

So, what was the purpose of that response? you just wanted to say wrong? care to elaborate a bit?

Posted by jimrich (here)

Last time I checked there's absolutely no way to experience giving 20+ years of your life to someone who: can't make good decisions (and often makes bad ones),

...thanks to inadequate parenting.

Try to view things others say with a bit of objectivity, your perspective is not the only one.

What your saying here doesn't make much sense, in fact it makes no sense. How does a 3 year old know that boiling water is hot? or not to play with the stove? natural curiosity and lack of life experience has nothing to do with parenting, adequate or not.

Posted by jimrich (here)

is mostly selfish (and unaware of it), has absolutely zero life experience yet wants their ideas to be equally acknowledged,

...thanks to inadequate parenting.

again, what? You expect children to be fully developed emotionally at birth?

just being flippant?

Posted by jimrich (here)

for a period of time is physically incapable of caring for themselves & needs your constant attention,

....which requires adequate parenting or at least a caring nanny.

A nanny??

Posted by jimrich (here)

will push you emotionally (just because they can, unconscious boundary testing),

...the consequence of inadequate parenting!

flippancy with exclamation!

Posted by jimrich (here)

might test you physically as well (none of my boys have yet),

...thanks to inadequate parenting. LOL, I now believe that our dad left all of us because he could see the day coming very soon when his oldest boy would take him out and, with dad's bad back, he sure didn't want the kid he had so savagely beat up to BREAK his back or worse! I would never would have had the guts to take my ROTTEN father out but I sure wanted to - after therapy and losing my dread fear of him. I seriously wanted to go find him and MURDER him with my bare hands!

I don't think you're quite done with therapy if you still harbor that anger.

Posted by jimrich (here)
My siblings and I went through it.

no, you were children, but if you think your parents were pure evil (a pretty hard thing to be) then so be it.

Posted by jimrich (here)

I'm a proud member of the "Parent club"... I view it the same way I view my membership in the "Deployed to a Combat Zone" club... you just can't understand it with out "being there"... what single person makes that kind of sacrifice?....

IMO, anyone who sees parenting as a "sacrifice" should never be a parent. Parenting is an HONOR, IMO

Oh, sorry; I'm not too well acquainted with the common social lies people tell to each other. If you think parenting is NOT a sacrifice go talk to any teen parent, go talk to my daughter (20 with a 2 year old). Your opinions are pretty far off the mark due to lack of experience... you are welcome to cling to them all you want; but I do not think you will fully overcome your past by demonizing parenthood (at least your own parents) with out fully understanding it (which you don't seem very interested in right now).

[jimrich]

Posted by Flash (here)
why not discussing the real problems such as "what is the impact of having been raised by an alcoholic dad" or "how can one change parenting from violent parenting to loving parenting".

OK, go for it.....let's see your opinions about alcoholic dads and violent parenting.

This kind of thread would be much more productive it seems to me.

Yes, way more productive than taking childish, abusive and insulting shots at my opinions!

[jimrich]

Posted by TargeT (here)
care to elaborate a bit?

Care to elaborate on your mysterious question?

Posted by TargeT (here)
Last time I checked there's absolutely no way to experience giving 20+ years of your life to someone who: can't make good decisions (and often makes bad ones),

...thanks to inadequate parenting.

Posted by TargeT (here)
How does a 3 year old

You didn't mention a 3 yr old above and it looked like you were speaking of a 20 year old

giving 20+ years of your life to someone

Your opinions are pretty far off the mark due to lack of experience... you are welcome to cling to them all you want; but I do not think you will fully overcome your past by demonizing parenthood (at least your own parents) with out fully understanding it (which you don't seem very interested in right now).

It is quite common and typical for defensive/offensive parents to go after anyone who dares question the hallowed institution of "Parenting" so slam me if you must instead of discussing Parenting and Parents. It's the same old worn out scam from the Parents Club - kill the messenger and ignore his message!
All of you hysterically defensive parents are so obvious and transparent to those of us who were your defenseless victims in the past and we did enough therapy to see through you pathetic LIES.

Try to be mature enough to stick with the subject and not attack the OP and then you might learn something or make a useful contribution to this thread.

[jimrich]

DON'T KILL THE MESSENGER!