The AltRight is NOT the whole of the Alternative Community

[Mark]

There used to be a day when the Alternative Community could co-exist in peace with each other.

Those days are gone. Since the Mainstream Media (MSM) has elevated the AltRight to mainstream awareness, members of the AltRight believe that they are the only part of the community and elevate their concerns above those of people who do not believe the same as they do about some issues of global and national importance.

And those things often generally have to do with racial issues at their heart, be they about migration, so-called communism or whatever issues they call Left or Progressive. They have to do with the belief that Western Civilization is threatened, that it is being destroyed or undermined somehow, when Western Civilization is really and truly morphing and evolving just as it always has and just as all civilizations and cultures do over time. Every generation in our times has experienced this kind of shift not just as the global situation has changed and the world has become "smaller", but as communications technology has become ubiquitous and what goes on all over the world is available to us all, 24/7.

I saw this day coming in 2014, when RedIce Radio, with John Lash, began talking about mass migration of folks from Southwest Asia and the danger to the "white race". Honestly speaking, I felt my heart drop on that day when I watched that video in this Forum because I knew that this would change the AltCom forever.

What RedIce radio spoke to on that show was not new information. In a previous incarnation, I taught Geography classes, from world regional to physical systems of the environment at the university level for 14 years. Since the early 90s, Demographers, Geographers and other interested parties have known that the demography of the Western Nations was shifting and, at some point, it would result in folks from the Underdeveloped nations moving into the Developed nations in order to take care of the aging populations who were not having children and are still not having children, for the most part.

The Replacement Rate in European countries and the white birth rate in the United States and Canada has been low for decades now and has been getting lower, so all of the drama and the pain of this shift in Demography has been expressed here in the Alternative Community from a place of fear. A place of fear for something that has to do with the maintenance of a false racial reality that was created in the first place in order to divide and conquer, something this community as a whole is supposed to be against, or, at least, has rhetorically stated as much, seeking a global populist movement against those who have sought to successfully do what is currently being attempted to us all.

That place of fear I speak of has been cultivated deliberately and consciously and, even knowing it is coming, or that it is here, it is STILL something that affects us because it affects us where we live, in the communities we grew up in that are changing beyond recognition, in the nations that we inhabit, where our neighbors don't necessarily look like us or worship like us, or even think like us. In our friend groups and social circles and even in our families.

Fear makes us shrill, fear makes us lash out, fear makes us hate. And I see hate here as well as love, which makes this space balanced in a way. I'm grateful some of y'all are holding back with it, but there comes a time when you gotta let that shiza out to let it go and get past it to begin to contemplate the higher forms of engagement and transcension of limitation in what we can conceptually see as potential futures for global humanity.

Everybody here knows how easy it is to scapegoat others, it is an ancient energy/loosh ritual and we wouldn't be human if we didn't engage in it ourselves at some level in a community like this, or in the Alternative Community as a whole. Those of us who are not AltRight but who consider ourselves part of the Alternative Community as well find ourselves called Social Justice Warriors, Snowflakes - just like those who know nothing about the deeper realities we discuss here - when our concerns are way beyond that, our beliefs and knowings, way above just the mere display of worldly equity issues, but instead going deeper into the collective unconscious and the spirituality of a global society on the verge of achieving the stars and integrating SSP technology.

This, as we are simultaneously being herded, harvested and genocided. All of us, not just marginalized folks around the world, but ALL OF US.

I don't have an agenda nor am I looking for any specific kinds of responses to this statement here. I expect that there are folks who are reading this right now who are ready to blow their top coming from wherever they may be coming from. If that is what needs to happen, this is the space to let it fly. Now that I put that out there, I guess there is a question that rises from this inquiry into what we are, who we are and what we stand for in spaces like this.

Why do you believe that the only valid expression of Alternative Community must be from those who think like you do? Those who are more Libertarian in political ideology, as our Fearless Leader recently stated in another thread?

[Bill Ryan]

That's correct. AltRight and AltLeft are both misleading terms, as are 'Right' and 'Left'.

Most Avalon member are libertarians. I certainly am. Those no longer fit comfortably in any simplistic 'left-right' dichotomy.

I'm...

• Anti war.
• Anti censorship.
• Pro freedom of speech.
• Anti media manipulation.
• Anti personal surveillance.
• Pro environment.
• Anti big tech.
• Anti Wall Street greed and excesses.
• Pro preservation of national and regional cultures.
• Pro complementary healthcare.
• Pro small businesses and personal enterprise.
• Anti big corporation monopolies.

(And you may well be all those, too.)

So, Mark, here's a direct question for you. Please answer.

Am I 'AltRight' or 'AltLeft'? And please explain your [binary] categorization.

[ExomatrixTV]

As if the use of the very arbitrary highly subjective label AltRight "justifies" endless exaggerations, doxxings, misrepresentations, insinuations, lies, false accusations & assumptions, "guilty by association" mind games, mass deceptions, cancel culture, mass censorship, framing critical thinkers etc. etc.

• For the record: it is NOT justified, it is just a pathetic lame excuse to silence people!

Anyone getting that label is assumed (judged) to be "equally horrible & evil" as neo-nazi's ... even if you can prove it is all based upon false assumptions ... they don't care ... as it is all about collectivism & mob-rule fearing an honest informed open & intelligent public respectful debates.

cheers,
John Kuhles aka 'ExomatrixTV'
May 2nd,2021

[Mark]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
That's correct. AltRight and AltLeft are both misleading terms, as are 'Right' and 'Left'.

Misleading at the "higher" level of unity and Oneness, a spiritual conceptualization that has become a panacea used to hide very real differences in the way that people express themselves in the world.

Right and left are real, I have a right hand and a left hand.

Dichotomies are real, there is the world outside of my head and the world inside, there is polarity, in the charge of particles, in day and night and every other polar expression necessary to make the physics of the natural world and creation itself work.

It is not real at the level of consciousness and perception, an inner and outer reality that expresses all of the things that we know to be true here in the AltCom at the philosophical and spiritual level.

But so many people in this world are not spiritual, do not understand the science of spirituality and the reality of Oneness and Unity and do not have a real world knowing in regards to dichotomous expression being illusory.

That is experiential in nature for it to be truly known in anything other than an intellectual manner which makes that statement a mental exercise to be used in argumentation only and an excuse not to address the very real signs of polarity, the evidence of its presence in thinking and action of ourselves and others
.

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
Most Avalon member are libertarians. I certainly am. Those no longer fit comfortably in any simplistic 'left-right' dichotomy.

Agreed without qualification.

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
I'm...

• Anti war.
• Anti censorship.
• Pro freedom of speech.
• Anti media manipulation.
• Anti personal surveillance.
• Pro environment.
• Anti big tech.
• Anti Wall Street greed and excesses.
• Pro preservation of national and regional cultures.
• Pro complementary healthcare.
• Pro small businesses and personal enterprise.
• Anti big corporation monopolies.

(And you may well be all those, too.)

I am indeed! Every, single one. The problem, for me, is where the freedoms and individualism Libertarians espouse are not inherently attainable for all people because Society.

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
So, Mark, here's a direct question for you. Please answer.
Am I 'AltRight' or 'AltLeft'? And please explain your [binary] categorization.

I can't categorize you individually Bill. That would be my personal opinion and I don't know the full extent of your beliefs, how much you believe in the orthodoxy of Libertarianism, where you deviate personally, things like that. Personally, I'm a fan and appreciate you as well as like you as a man. I respect you as a leader.

As far as the positions you espoused above, I would say that Libertarians, and your personal expression of it, are not Alt-Right. The issue, for me, goes beyond the individual belief system and extends more into how that belief system dovetails into other, existing systems and what they support overall for, not just individuals, but collective as well. It is well-documented, for instance, that it took big government in the 1960s in the United States for us to make some headway in ending segregation on the job and in housing. Would that have happened without big government? No. There is no indication that it even could have happened given the reality that housing and employment segregation are still a thing even with big government intervention.

It is my understanding that Libertarians are against big government.

So even if they (individual Libertarians) are not racist or AltRight, the belief that all big government is bad keeps things from changing at the societal level, at least, with the assistance of folks who hold Libertarian views, who will side with others who believe big government is bad and some of those folks may think so because they don't want their daughters marrying a black boy she's known since childhood because redlining was declared illegal and that boy has lived next to them for years.

[Ewan]

I just went in search of The Political Compass, a little test that has come up on the forum many time before I think. It might be worthwhile to see just how much we have in common before we look for further division?

Here's me.



I guess my own belief system pushes me to that position on the graph. Can I say everyone who doesn't fall into my quadrant is wrong, or needs re-educating. I would defend my ideas if pushed and I'm somewhat ashamed to admit that.

Should a perfectly balanced person fall on (0, 0). I doubt it. Maybe the test is flawed, the questions were limited, and fairly yes, no type responses. Various circumstances would have led to different answers had the options been more in depth.

It is a guide, nothing more.

Perhaps Robert Anton Wilson said it best...

“Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence.”

[Matthew]

The alt-right I've seen around the internets is nothing like anything on this forum. However, trying to deconstruct the term alt-right... it's used as a way to ignore nuances, to say "oh that stuff", and it's dismissed. No need to listen. The term conspiracy theory, alt-right. Even the term right-wing have all become the newspeak, the code to others not to listen to that. So many terms and words, previously powerful, have lost their sincerity and meaning; the language is being broken

[Ewan]

Posted by Mark/Rahkyt (here)
So even if they (individual Libertarians) are not racist or AltRight, the belief that all big government is bad keeps things from changing at the societal level

Please expand this Mark because I don't understand that statement.

[Mark]

Posted by ExomatrixTV (here)
As if the use of the very arbitrary highly subjective label AltRight "justifies" endless exaggerations, doxxings, misrepresentations, insinuations, lies, false accusations & assumptions, "guilty by association" mind games, mass deceptions, cancel culture, mass censorship, framing critical thinkers etc. etc.

I agree 100%. But no media, left or right, has the depth of focus nor intention to get into the types of details that we do here in the AltCom. All of this type of honing down into the details and the hidden, background information that comprises our reality, takes time and individual effort and study to get into. The MSM is designed for drama and hype, for emotionality and conflict and by breaking the Alternative Community into 2 halves, only one of which has really been concentrated on because of the nature of the MSM, they are able to create an enemy for the society they are attempting to create as we head into a new way of interrelation and collective, global being. We know the nature of that society as being invasive and homogenizing, to the extent that it celebrates diversity when not everybody is into that celebration!

So the limitations of the MSM are the limitations of their audience, those who are embedded in the media reality in every aspect, that is ubiquitous across the planet now and hard to escape from unless you purposefully cut yourself off and create your own personal breakaway life with others of like-mind.

Posted by ExomatrixTV (here)
Anyone getting that label is assumed to be "equally horrible & evil" as the neo-nazi's ... even if you can prove it is all based upon false assumptions ... they don't care ... as it is all about collectivism & mob-rule fearing an honest informed open & intelligent public respectful debate.

Absolutely. Right now, this is the case at the national (United States) and global level, but it has not always been that way, has it. All of that stuff has been the case in many nations for many hundreds of years. We are in a transition period now that is being felt by all beings in some way, shape or form, but is being guided by competing visions of what the future should look like. And this is where we, as real people, suffer in this! We are placed within categories that we are ill-suited for, or that don't fully define us, or that include others that we don't agree with at all!

Do you think I like being considered to be the same kind of person as a gangbanger? Unfortunately, we are not in charge of stereotypes or how the collective perceives us in the moment, we can change that and should over time, and that is where we are now, attempting to do that with poor guidance from a global elite Tavistok/Hollywood dream machine that just won't stop!

[T Smith]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
That's correct. AltRight and AltLeft are both misleading terms, as are 'Right' and 'Left'.

Most Avalon member are libertarians. I certainly am. Those no longer fit comfortably in any simplistic 'left-right' dichotomy.

I'm...

• Anti war.
• Anti censorship.
• Pro freedom of speech.
• Anti media manipulation.
• Anti personal surveillance.
• Pro environment.
• Anti big tech.
• Anti Wall Street greed and excesses.
• Pro preservation of national and regional cultures.
• Pro complementary healthcare.
• Pro small businesses and personal enterprise.
• Anti big corporation monopolies.

(And you may well be all those, too.)

So, Mark, here's a direct question for you. Please answer.

Am I 'AltRight' or 'AltLeft'? And please explain your [binary] categorization.

Sounds like you're a libertarian to me. Why complicate our core values with identity politics?

[Journeyman]

Posted by Matthew (here)
The alt-right I've seen around the internets is nothing like anything on this forum. However, trying to deconstruct the term alt-right... it's used as a way to ignore nuances, to say "oh that stuff", and it's dismissed. No need to listen. The term conspiracy theory, alt-right. Even the term right-wing have all become the newspeak, the code to others not to listen to that. So many terms and words, previously powerful, have lost their sincerity and meaning; the language is being broken

Coming from the UK our political compass is slightly left of the US to begin with, but even with that perspective I don't really see this community as anything approaching alt right as I understand it. A quick look at some areas of /pol on 4chan helps to show the gulf. I'm sure there's other areas of the web that would make the distinction even more apparent but I've little wish to hunt them out!

I've always wound up in a similar space to Ewen on that political graph. Chomsky was probably one of my first inspirations to look more closely at the way the system operated and he was something of a hero for me back then. I was going to write in the 'Biden supporters' thread that I would have considered myself one, if I actually believed Biden and his party believed in the causes they supposedly represent. Instead I subscribe to the 'two wings of the same bird' school, but that doesn't mean that given the chance I wouldn't be speaking for universal health care or a decent safety net where the more fortunate in society extend a helping hand to the less.

I just think a lot of the left and right discussions we have at the moment are based on a false premise, that we are actually taking part in a meaningful exercise of democratic power and not a fig leaf distraction from the ever more clear NWO that really runs the show. I think once you come to believe that the system isn't just a little bit or a lot broken but broken and impotent by design and that something very different is at work then all those previous discussions start to seem something of a distraction.

The positive thing however is that once you realise that humanity has powerful enemies who are right at the top of the power structure it also helps to make the ideological and other differences between the rest of us fall into their proper perspective. If you're fundamentally working for good and wanting the best for the entirety of the human race then we're on the same team and we can sort out the best way to build an equitable transit system or fund a new hospital later.

[Mark]

Posted by Ewan (here)
I just went in search of The Political Compass, a little test that has come up on the forum many time before I think. It might be worthwhile to see just how much we have in common before we look for further division?

Here's me:

Posted by Ewan (here)
I guess my own belief system pushes me to that position on the graph. Can I say everyone who doesn't fall into my quadrant is wrong, or needs re-educating. I would defend my ideas if pushed and I'm somewhat ashamed to admit that.

Should a perfectly balanced person fall on (0, 0). I doubt it. Maybe the test is flawed, the questions were limited, and fairly yes, no type responses. Various circumstances would have led to different answers had the options been more in depth.

It is a guide, nothing more.

Perhaps Robert Anton Wilson said it best...

“Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence.”

Well damn. I guess I'm a Libertarian too. Looks like even a bit further to the Left than you and just a bit higher on the Authoritarian. Who knew. Smh

[ExomatrixTV]

Most far-left & some center left want you to accept THEIR cooked up labels and if you do not agree: it is, according to their "logic", proof that you are against them, no matter if your counter-arguments (rebuttal) based on just & good merit you have to offer ... The moment you challenge their claims & judgments ... that act alone is assumed "proof" enough for their twisted fcked up minds.

So in short: you never ever can win an argument on their (pathetic) terms & conditions of validating their perceptional "truths" ... Some are even dumb enough to apologize for the "appearance" of wrong-think & "hate speech" hoping they leave you alone ... When you do that, they mostly can make it even worse for you.

cheers,
John

[atman]

Posted by Mark/Rahkyt (here)

Right and left are real, I have a right hand and a left hand.

Dichotomies are real, there is the world outside of my head and the world inside, there is polarity, in the charge of particles, in day and night and every other polar expression necessary to make the physics of the natural world and creation itself work.

I too have a right hand and a left hand.

But if I was to meet you face to face, your right hand would be to my left and your left hand to my right.

What would be the right... right and what would be the real left, then? The one from your viewpoint or the one from mine?

When it is noon in Texas, it is 3:00 AM in Sydney, Australia.

Is it daytime or nighttime, then, on planet Earth?

[Mark]

Posted by Matthew (here)
The alt-right I've seen around the internets is nothing like anything on this forum. However, trying to deconstruct the term alt-right... it's used as a way to ignore nuances, to say "oh that stuff", and it's dismissed. No need to listen. The term conspiracy theory, alt-right. Even the term right-wing have all become the newspeak, the code to others not to listen to that. So many terms and words, previously powerful, have lost their sincerity and meaning; the language is being broken

Deconstructing the "Alt-Right" phrase is a useful exercise. According to Merriam-Webster:

Definition of alt-right
: a right-wing, primarily online political movement or grouping based in the U.S. whose members reject mainstream conservative politics and espouse extremist beliefs and policies typically centered on ideas of white nationalism
Welcome to the alt-right. The label blends together straight-up white supremacists, nationalists who think conservatives have sold out to globalization, and nativists who fear immigration will spur civil disarray.
— Dylan Matthews
Rather than concede the moral high ground to the left, the alt right turns the left's moralism on its head and makes it a badge of honor to be called "racist," "homophobic," and "sexist."
— Benjamin Welton
Regardless of who triumphs at the ballot box, the biggest winner of this presidential election may be the alt-right: a sprawling coalition of reactionary conservatives who have lobbied to make the United States more "traditional," more "populist" and more white.
— Jonathon Morgan
—often used before another noun
an alt-right manifesto
Secularism is indeed correlated with greater tolerance of gay marriage and pot legalization. But it's also making America's partisan clashes more brutal. And it has contributed to the rise of … the so-called alt-right movement, whose members see themselves as proponents of white nationalism.
— Peter Beinart

I share this quote because, as we define ourselves here in the AltCom, we exist within an overarching global and national structure, where our individuated and sub-group belief systems are hierarchically situated in a nested and branching constellation of understandings. This definition, coming from where it comes from, acts as a foil that we can use to further examine the ideas of Alt-Right and Alt-Left.

For there to be an Alt-Right, there has to be an Alt-Left, right? So how is that defined?

It's not in the Merriam-Webster online dictionary because there is no definition for it that has been explored in any formal fashion. But it does exist.

The Urban Dictionary defines it thusly:

alt-left
1) People, who ban other's freedom of speech, because they feel "uncomfortable" hearing different opinions.
2) People, who physically assault other individuals, and damage both public and private property in the name of "peace" and "love".
3) People, who care more about their selfish desires and arrogant views than about the country they live in.
Why is everyone so supportive of alt-left destroying our nation? When will finally someone stop those alt-left terrorists?

This would include Black Lives Matter as it is understood in this form, as a communist organization, and the Antifascist Movement (ANTIFA) as an extreme environmentalist organization.

It suffices for our purposes. The Alt-Right and the Alt-Left both often believe the

EXACT.

SAME.

CONSPIRACIES.

The only difference between them is where they stand on race, gender and religion issues, usually. There are folks here who can easily find themselves on one side or the other of this dichotomy, another nigh useless yet generalizing foray into separating people based upon what can be shifting and evolving belief systems. I would not agree the language is being broken, I would rather bring nuance even to that and state that the language, English in this case and, generally, the Western European slate of languages (Romance, Germanic), is being revised, meaning is being broadened in many instances, to reflect what these European ethnic nations and America as an ideological nation, have become: more diverse and heterogeneous reflections of a global society, an evolution which was inevitable the first day a European got on a ship and sailed elsewhere and took what he found in the rest of the world back home.

[Mark]

Posted by Ewan (here)

Posted by Mark/Rahkyt (here)
So even if they (individual Libertarians) are not racist or AltRight, the belief that all big government is bad keeps things from changing at the societal level

Please expand this Mark because I don't understand that statement.

A Neo-nazi believes that big government that supports equality across the board for all racial and ethnic populations is bad and so will make decisions that support continuing ethnic domination of Aryan-descended whites.


As per my earlier example, someone who doesn't believe in race-mixing, will make decisions that stop that from happening. That often means stopping things at the highest levels first, then at the state or local level or the other way around. Same thing with rules and laws against homosexuality or any type of behavior or way of being that does not comport with certain cultural and societal beliefs held by members of sub-cultures within a nation.

Also per my earlier example, redlining in neighborhoods had to be outlawed at the national level because, in America, it was a national issue. The same thing with job discrimination and access to resources. Many government programs that went to whites in America also did not apply to blacks, things like farm loans, even the GI Bill, black soldiers often were stopped from getting them. Does that clarify the statement any?

[Mike]

Posted by Matthew (here)
The alt-right I've seen around the internets is nothing like anything on this forum. However, trying to deconstruct the term alt-right... it's used as a way to ignore nuances, to say "oh that stuff", and it's dismissed. No need to listen. The term conspiracy theory, alt-right. Even the term right-wing have all become the newspeak, the code to others not to listen to that. So many terms and words, previously powerful, have lost their sincerity and meaning; the language is being broken

Thanks for opening up the dialogue Mark, first of all.

RE language being broken: it's a very,very serious problem, and I could write endlessly on it. Certain words and phrases have been bandied about so much that they've almost completely lost their meaning. Words like "nazi" and "fascist" and "communist" for example, have been used often to merely describe anyone who disagrees (by both sides, in fairness), and have nothing whatsoever to do with their real meanings. The whole thing confused me for a while. I've had to go the dictionary more than once to make sure I really understood them! No joke! What it is, basically, is a giant gaslighting competition (you're a nazi! no, you're a nazi! no, you are!....)

Not only that, but an entire new language has been invented right before our eyes, and very few people truly understand it. Certain words and phrases have been co-opted and redefined, and are being used whimsically by people who don't realize what they're actually saying, agreeing with, or disagreeing with. Equity, inclusion, and diversity are good examples. So is white supremacy.

Here's an example: When I was a mod, there was concern about the Q material because in some circles it had earned Avalon a reputation as a "white supremacist" space. I was horrified by that! We all were! It's partially why it was made private. Back then I wasn't aware of the newly co-opted version of white supremacy, which was basically assigned to anyone who held enlightenment values, had national pride, voted for Trump, and didn't subscribe to notions of collective guilt. See, I thought these people were talking about real honest to God white supremacists, and I voted to make that thread private because of that misunderstanding. Looking back I feel it was a mistake. I was just naive and uninformed. And many people are! Very few people have the time, desire, or will to read about postmodernism, critical theory, marxism, deconstructionism, and so on. And very few are willing to listen! And if they do, they look at you like your nuts. Believe me, I've tried You shoulda seen my Mom's face (a Biden supporter)...priceless.

"Alt right" is another phrase that has been bandied about liberally, so much so that I'm not even clear what it means anymore. I'm glad Mark brought it up because maybe we can nail it down here in this thread. I've been called "alt right" here. I've also been called a "white supremacist". And it's hard to even begin to defend yourself when you can't be sure the person using that type of language even knows what they're saying, or when you yourself are confused about those words as well. This is what I would call a postmodern problem, which is a loss of logic and coherence in favor of the freedom to use words in ways that can mean whatever you want when it's convenient to do so.

Am I alt right? I would have never assigned myself that label in a million years. Ditto "white supremacist". But the bar has been set so low now that you're bound to trip over it. In other words, the co-opted meanings of those words now apply to anyone that isn't "woke". So if you value enlightenment values, are proud of the country, don't subscribe to notions of collective guilt, believe in biology etc...well then you fall under the umbrella of these words and phrases according to the prevailing "wisdom". And you're ostracized, cancelled, ridiculed, so forth.

So much more to say but this post is already too long. More later. Thanks again Mark for opening up the dialogue.

[Satori]

Posted by Ewan (here)

Posted by Mark/Rahkyt (here)
So even if they (individual Libertarians) are not racist or AltRight, the belief that all big government is bad keeps things from changing at the societal level

Please expand this Mark because I don't understand that statement.

Nor does he. I’ll be accused of being racist, but this is not about one’s race. Gracy May is way out in left field too. Rebel rousers they are. They, and those who think like them, are not interested in truth, just stirring the pot and trying to convince people they are so smart is what matters most to them. Yet, they are clueless.

[Mark]

Posted by ExomatrixTV (here)
Most far-left & some center left want you to accept THEIR cooked up labels and if you do not agree ... it is, according to their "logic", proof that you are against them, no matter if your counter-arguments (rebuttal) based on just & good merit you have to offer ... The moment you challenge their claims & judgments ... that act alone is assumed "proof" enough for their twisted fcked up minds.

So in short: you never ever can win an argument on their (pathetic) terms & conditions of validating their perceptional "truths" ... Some are even dumb enough to apologize for the "appearance" of wrong-think & "hate speech" hoping they leave you alone ... When you do that, they mostly can make it even worse for you.

Well, I'm sure that is all true, as far as it goes. But, I would submit to you, that the exact same statement can be made by those on the Left about those on the Right, and there will be some truth to that perspective, as well. What do you think about that?

There is subjectivity and limited compassion for the oppositional side on both sides of the equation. Which is the point and purpose of the divide and conquer game, as you know very well. The expression of this game in the last 5 years or so has been so masterful many of us have taken a side not even realizing that we have been split by the game masters as part of their long-term and overall plan to separate us into experimental and control groups for whatever it is they have going on right now.

Both groups are loosh fodder, in the end, yet many of us will die believing these divisions are the Truth.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Posted by Satori (here)
Nor does he. I’ll be accused of being racist, but this is not about one’s race. Gracy May is way out in left field too. Rebel rousers they are. They, and those who think like them, are not interested in truth, just stirring the pot and trying to convince people they are so smart is what matters most to them. Yet, they are clueless.

You don't know me at all, yet look at you projecting racism already. Talk to me in this thread if you have something to say dude. Bring it. But you better come hard and real.

[Gracy]

It’s not about racism Mark, it’s about ideals.

And acceptance, or none thereof, of other ideals.

[Mark]

Posted by Mike (here)
RE language being broken: it's a very,very serious problem, and I could write endlessly on it. Certain words and phrases have been bandied about so much that they've almost completely lost their meaning. Words like "nazi" and "fascist" and "communist" for example, have been used to merely describe anyone who disagrees (by both side, in fairness), and have nothing whatsoever to do with their real meanings. The whole thing confused me for a while. I've had to go the dictionary more than once to make sure I really understood them! No joke! What it is, basically, is a giant gaslighting competition (you're a nazi! no, you're a nazi! no, you are!....)

I like how you use RE above. I do that too, is it a thing now? Do we all do it?

Agreed. When a term is used that way to describe large groups of people it is always a problem. I've experienced that for an entire lifetime so I get it. That's what the MSM does. The purpose it serves is to reset the normative culture in the United States and to bring to the front perspectives and realities that have been de-centered traditionally.

That is uncomfortable and ugly. When people who have been disenfranchised get a voice and people get to hear it, you hear from all kinds of people like that, from uneducated to educated. And that is where we are.

Folks venting and upholding unsustainable and binary positions, finding others like them and figuring out the efficacy of their systems of belief and whether or not they are viable. In many cases they are not, for a global population or even local populations seeking a way to move forward together.

Posted by Mike (here)
Not only that, but an entire new language has been invented right before our eyes, and very few people truly understand it. Certain words and phrases have been co-opted and redefined, and are being used whimsically by people who don't realize what they're actually saying, agreeing with, or disagreeing with. Equity, inclusion, and diversity are good examples. So is white supremacy.

How else do you define and talk about things that have been pushed under the rug for decades? Except by redefining words and using them more broadly or to express specific ideas? I guess we really could make words up for stuff. That might veer off into the ludicrous and subvert the entire idea of helping society to evolve to become more expressive of multiple perspectives, though.

Posted by Mike (here)
Here's an example: When I was a mod, there was concern about the Q material because in some circles it had earned Avalon a reputation as a "white supremacist" space. I was horrified by that! We all were! It's partially why it was made private. Back then I wasn't aware of the newly co-opted version of white supremacy, which was basically assigned to anyone who held enlightenment values, had national pride, voted for Trump, and didn't subscribe to notions of collective guilt. See, I thought these people were talking about real honest to God white supremacists, and I voted to make that thread private because of that misunderstanding. Looking back I feel it was a mistake. I was just naive and uninformed. And many people are! Very few people have the time, desire, or will to read about postmodernism, critical theory, marxism, deconstructionism, and so on. And very few are willing to listen! And if they do, they look at you like your nuts. Believe me, I've tried You shoulda seen my Mom's face (a Biden supporter)...priceless.

You're a great storyteller, Mike. Thanks for sharing that relevant happenstance that those who were present for that can easily remember.

This 'newly co-opted version of white supremacy in italics' is not new. It comes from the perspective that we are all ignorant to that which we do not know. I personally believe that racism is very specific a word and should be used to describe encounters and systemic variables that have specific outcomes, whether intended or unintended. The way the word is being used is way too encompassing of folks who just don't know any better.

Now, as far as examples of direct enmity that can be expressed and that can be pointed to? Those are no-brainers.

Posted by Mike (here)
"Alt right" is another phrase that has been bandied about liberally, so much so that I'm not even clear what it means anymore. I'm glad Mark brought it up because maybe we can nail it down here in this thread. I've been called "alt right" here. I've also been called a "white supremacist". And it's hard to even begin to defend yourself when you can't be sure the person using that type of language even knows what they're saying, or when you yourself are confused about those words as well. This is what I would call a postmodern problem, which is a loss of logic and coherence in favor of the freedom to use words in ways that can mean whatever you want when it's convenient to do so.

Am I alt right? I would have never assigned myself that label in a million years. Ditto "white supremacist". But the bar has been set so low now that you're bound to trip over it. In other words, the co-opted meanings of those words now apply to anyone that isn't "woke". So if you value enlightenment values, are proud of the country, don't subscribe to notions of collective guilt, believe in biology etc...well then you fall under the umbrella of these words and phrases according to the prevailing "wisdom". And you're ostracized, cancelled, ridiculed, so forth.

So much more to say but this post is already too long. More later. Thanks again Mark for opening up the dialogue.

I've never called you Alt-Right or white supremacist. That I can recall, anyway. That's really a thing in general, Mike, in regards to language and how it is used. We all use words we may not necessarily know all the means of, or even the direct meanings of some of them sometimes and we hope that we get it right, contextually! I know as a write and poet I often use words creatively, in order to increase the metaphoric or visual expanse I'm attempting to communicate, but it is a very real thing that we cannot often be certain that we know what anybody else understands in the words we say!

Why would you call it postmodern?

That bar you speak of is one for the game Limbo, right? Let's see how low we can go!

And that is an old trope, as well. Want me to talk about my experiences in that arena? Being stereotyped? It is certainly not new, from my perspective. It might just be something humans do, to create in-groups and out-groups. Another tool used by savvy folks to divide and conquer.