and the Nazi Bell
Cassidy (KC): Okay, here we go. Let me ask my question again. Bill,
you’ve just come from experiencing the Nazi Bell and whatever
else was up there.
Ryan (BR): Ah, you can take two on that, because I wasn’t
experiencing the Nazi Bell. I went to take a look at the Henge...
...so, start again.
You don’t know what you’re doing anymore. You have no
idea what’s going on. Go on.
[laughing] No, that is not true. Stop it.
Okay. Maybe, I don’t like.... Okay. So, you just came back from
experiencing the Henge and the surrounding area. What can you tell
me? Was it spooky?
clips of Henge - like structure and surrounding area]
It was a visual experience, because the thing was larger than I had
ever imagined it to be, because on the internet you see these little
tiny pictures taken with a wide angle lens when it wasn’t
nearly so overgrown. And when you’re underneath this thing,
this is a huge, huge thing. It’s supported on these big pillars
that are far larger than a man, and the whole thing is a very
dramatic object indeed. Right in the middle of these woods. It took
us a long time to get there, because the snow is about a foot thick,
and there are a lot of fallen trees and branches and things, so
you’ve got to bushwhack your way through it. And, you’d
But in the picture it looks like it’s out in the middle of [an]
open area with cement.
Those pictures were taken a very long time ago.
I see. And now it’s become overgrown?
It’s completely overgrown. You’d never find this thing...
...unless you knew exactly where to look.
clip showing insides of the tunnels]
Okay. So they used prisoners though, up there...
...isn’t that true?
This is forced labor. The Nazis...
...used forced labor in many of their factories and this is how come
they were able to establish such an efficient industrial machine,
because they were working in a totalitarian environment under
conditions of huge brutality, and if there’s any residue of bad
feeling in these areas...
...it can be easily understood because a lot of people suffered
hugely in those places, in ways that I don’t think we can
imagine these days.
ends and then resumes with Bill Ryan talking in front of a tunnel
Why people come to a place like this is because we all have a
fascination for our own unknown history. This is why Americans come
to Europe. This is why we go to visit ancient castles. This is why
you went to Egypt. It’s to answer questions that we may not
even have properly formulated, but there’s a sense of the
unknown in our own minds, and it’s like an itch that you have
to scratch, however dark it may be.
And so there’s this kind of grim fascination with what
that we’re all jointly responsible for in our society, in our
civilization. What is it, you know, that we’re trying to
whitewash over, these days. And maybe there are clues here to how
savage mankind can be, and it may be very valuable for us to be
reminded of that, even in this day and age where life feels so
comfortable, where life feels so easy, where things feel so safe.
Maybe that’s an illusion. Maybe it’s appropriate for us
to remind ourselves about, you know, how man’s inhumanity to
man is always there, like a dormant volcano.
ends and then resumes with Bill Ryan talking in front of the
So this is Bill Ryan from Project Camelot and it’s the 15th of
October, 2009. And I’ll repeat the month again: it’s
October, it’s not December. So, Robert Felix from iceagenow
would be quite interested in the strange anomalous weather that we’ve
been experiencing here. This is pretty unusual stuff. We’ve got
quite a few inches of snow, maybe even up to a foot in places. And
what you can see behind me here over my left shoulder is this object
that has become a sort of an iconic representation for all that is
not yet fully understood about the Nazi technology, the advanced
there is a lot of evidence that is gradually being accumulated by
Igor Witkowski and others, that during the second world war the Nazis
were experimenting with things that even now, 60 years later, we
might not fully understand in the public domain. And a little later
on in this video you’ll be seeing us talking with Igor in
detail about the evidence that he’s amassed to suggest very
strongly to many other researchers that the Nazis were doing
something very, very strange and that this project here, which has
become known as the Nazi Bell, may well have been the most top secret
of all their top secret projects.
we’ve just been battling our way through the woods and the snow
as you have seen. And the first thing that struck me, is that this
structure here is enormous. I’ve seen photographs of it on the
internet, as many of you watching this video will have done also. And
I had not been prepared for something that was quite this large.
We’ll be talking with Igor later about what this was. It bears
some strong resemblance to water towers, but Igor has done a lot of
research in this area, and we don’t actually know for sure what
it was used for. It’s not the only piece of evidence at all
which suggests the reality of these experiments that the Nazis were
interesting and it’s visible. And as you can see here, it’s
pretty dramatic, but actually the core, the solid core of the
evidence that suggests a reality of what the Nazis were doing,
actually lies elsewhere.
ends and then resumes with Kerry walking inside the tunnels]
They shut these people in the mountain and they killed them with a
chemical weapon before they closed the mountain doors so that they
couldn’t escape even if they were able to crawl through the
tunnels or something of that nature. So it’s really quite a
dark scenario. The whole area feels dark. I mean, it felt dark since
don’t think it’s my imagination that the deeper you go
in, the darker it feels. [video of an old plaque on wall of tunnel] I
don’t actually know if it comes out any better than this. Of
course we can’t read Polish, but apparently they put up a
plaque in 1994. So it’s not all that long ago.
video clips of other areas of tunnels]
BR: Okay, so, this is Bill Ryan with Kerry Cassidy, and this is the
of October, 2009. And we are... what are you trying to say?
KC: [laughs] Start again and say, ‘Project Camelot. Bill Ryan and
Kerry Cassidy from Project Camelot.’
BR: Okay. Did I not say that?
KC: No, you didn’t.
BR: Okay. All right.
KC: Go ahead.
BR: Start again. This is Bill Ryan here with Kerry Cassidy from Project
Camelot, and it’s the 15th of October, 2009, and we have just
come in from trudging
around in the deep snow, to my amazement. On the 15th of October we
shouldn’t be having weather like this, but for some reason we
it’s my personal delight and ours, I think, to be with Igor
Witkowski, who is a Polish researcher. He speaks excellent English.
And he’s written a very wonderful book, the English title of
which would be The
Truth about the Wunderwaffe.
And of course that’s a reference to the Luftwaffe which is the
German Air Force.
he is a military historian and a researcher, and a little bit of a
modern archeologist, I would say, because what we’ve just been
doing this morning is looking at some ruins and relics of some very
interesting structures in the woods that may or may not have
something to do with the fabled Nazi Bell, as it’s become
in this interview, I’m going to talk with Igor about his
research, his interest in this topic, the conclusions that he’s
drawn, some of the other things that he would like to tell us about
which we don’t have the opportunity to visit or check out in
person. And Igor, welcome.
Witkowski (IW): My pleasure.
BR: And for the benefit of the people who are not familiar with your
work, can you give a little introduction to yourself? How come you
came to be interested in this topic? And you’re a pioneer, to
some degree, of studying the possibility – in your view, I
believe, the strong possibility – of advanced Nazi technology
that most people do not recognize ever existed. When you first came
across the Bell, was that in written documentation, or was that in
witness testimony, and was it called the ‘Bell’? In the
German I think it’s called ‘die Glocke.’
IW: Yes, the Germans called it ‘die Glocke.’ The initial
information was interrogation protocols of two Germans involved in
the evacuation of the Bell. And there was no explanation what this
device could be. It was known as the Bell, but it referred actually
to the external appearance, because it resembled a bell to a large
extent, being around ten feet high, three meters and one-and-a-half,
up to two meters wide. It was my task to try to find some analogies
to modern physics and try to unravel what it could be.
BR: And what evidence were you working with? You knew that there was
something called the Bell that was important enough to be part of a
strategic evacuation at the close of the war, right?
BR: And, what you were doing then, was you were putting together the
puzzle from pieces of information that you collected. It started off
with the interrogation protocols which you just mentioned, and there
was something called the Bell but you didn’t know what it was.
It was evidently important enough to be evacuated as part of a major
strategic evacuation, as I understand it, towards the end of the war.
Where did you go from there?
IW: Exactly, and it was stated in the original materials that it was
most secret research project of the Third Reich carried out during
the entire war, and that was so amazing, so unusual, that I, first
and foremost, I tried to verify such a claim. Was it possible for
such a project involving such a strange device to exist?
I have managed to find seven documents confirming that such a project
which was officially code-named ‘Kriegsentscheide’ which
means ‘decisive for the war,’ that such a project did
exist, in fact. And itself, it’s a breakthrough in my opinion,
because, nevertheless, it doesn’t fit any known existing
pattern relating to weapons at all, to known German weapons from time
of the war.
BR: Okay. Now, if this project was labeled as ‘Kriegsentscheiden’
– decisive for the war – but obviously it wasn’t
decisive for the war because of the turn of events in history that we
all know, this implied that this research project, if that’s
what it was, was incomplete in some way. They made some progress, but
they never finished what it was that they intended to start.
IW: Yes. It does seem so, that they didn’t manage to finish. I
mean, the Germans didn’t finish the project. But such a
classification as ‘decisive for the war’ had to be based
on certain science, and that was the most fascinating, encouraging
element of this puzzle.
had to be something that could change the course of war, and I was
trying to – based on my previous experience of military
journalist and a historian – I was trying to develop this piece
of the puzzle into a larger picture and to explain what it could have
been, what generally could be imagined to change the course of war
based on such a physical phenomena as has been described in this
case, which were very strange, very unusual.
was, frankly saying, when I heard about it for the first time, I
mean, I heard about the physical and biological effects of this
device, of the Bell’s operation. The first association that
came to my mind, frankly saying, was the final sequence from the
movie, Spielberg’s movie, The
Raiders of the Lost Ark,
because it was something so amazing for the Germans themselves.
it was, certainly it was worth verifying such a claim, anyway.
BR: What was it that led you to understand that the physical evidence
for the Bell was going to be in this particular location, because you
came here and then you found a whole lot of other stuff, didn’t
IW: Exactly. That was the case, and it was... there was some
geographical names in this original German documents, I mean,
interrogation protocols of these Germans. And among them, this area
has been mentioned around Riese, which is the giant underground
factory. And there was also a mention that a mine that has been
turned over into a military research facility, that this mine was
used for this research from December 1944, if I remember correctly.
first of all, I started to look for a mine which would be in the
vicinity of the Waldenburg town, which is nearby, and I have found
out that there is just only one mine in that area, and indeed it has
been handed over to the military for military research and bears all
the marks of such a complex.
BR: And, in the process then of coming here to check all that out, then
you found this device which, or this structure, which has become
known as ‘the Henge.’ I think... was that your term for
it, or was that invented by Nick Cook who was the first westerner, or
the first guy from America, let’s say...
BR: ...to come and check out this story based on the publication of
book. ‘The Henge,’ where did that come from, and what’s
all that about?
IW: I wrote about it as the first, and the Henge has never been
mentioned in the original document. It’s only my guess that it
might have been used for such purposes. It’s based on certain
similarity to the description of the testing environment of the Bell,
that it has been tested in an underground chamber filled with water
to some level, to certain level; in that place, resembling a pool,
lined up with ceramic tiles and so on.
when I saw the pool around the Henge, it just, I just thought that it
might have been used as a test rig for such a research, but it’s
just a guess. The Henge in fact is not any proof of anything, and
probably it wasn’t used for Germans, but, on the other hand, it
doesn’t resemble any civilian construction as well.
BR: Yes, we looked at that this morning, and I must admit, I was really
struck by how enormous this structure is. It’s much, much
larger than the measurements of the Bell which you just described.
And if it is a test rig, it’s an enormous test rig.
IW: Yes. Because I was writing earlier about various aviation and
aerospace projects, I was familiar with such a kind of test rig which
is called ‘flytrap’ unofficially. The first similarity or
analogy that I saw, was that it resembled such a circular test rig.
Therefore, I was... it has just brought to my mind the idea that it
might have been such a test construction. But...
KC: So are you saying the bottom photograph is the ‘flytrap’
and the top is the ‘Henge?’
IW: Yes. The bottom photograph is the actual modern test rig, tested...
used actually to test helicopters here in Poland.
IW: Yes, but it refers to any...
KC: Fascinating. IW: ...objects of taking off and landing vertically.
It’s the same
IW: And that was the analogy that...
KC: It does look... it looks incredibly like...
IW: ...that struck me, and I was trying to explain it.
BR: Okay. And, now, what is your current theory, just to summarize all
of this, because I know this is a complicated subject. But to
summarize this, and also for people who are seeing this before our
interview with Joseph Farrell. Joseph Farrell went into this in quite
some detail on record with us. And to some degree, we can refer
viewers to this video to that one. But what is your personal theory
about exactly what they may have been doing?
IW: Evidently, on the basis of the original descriptions, the Bell was
kind of a plasma accelerator. Namely, there was high-voltage and
high-intensity electric discharge inside such a... there were disks
or drums inside, which were spinned in opposite directions around the
same axis. And inside of them, there was some electric discharge of
high voltage – around a million volts, as later on it came out
from the documents – and it accelerated heavy ions, namely
mercury, mercuric ions. And it generated very strong magnetic field
and various strange effects. And what I managed to relate it to, is
that... sorry, I will say it again, okay? From some moment.
appears that the Bell created vortices of plasma, of mercury plasma,
mercuric ions, moving with... spinning with very high speeds, and in
this case, the analogy to certain modern research and physics is such
that in such a device, one can achieve the speeds of the order of ten
percent of the speed of sound. And the speeds of the ions, yes and...
BR: Ten percent of the speed of light?
IW: Yes, in some laboratories in New Mexico such a research has been
KC: But did you mean ten percent of the speed of sound or light?
IW: Ten percent of the speed of light.
KC: I see, okay.
KC: So could you say that sentence again?
IW: Yes. It seems quite clearly that the Bell was a kind of a plasma
accelerator. Namely, it accelerated plasma, actually mercuric ions,
up to very high speeds. And I could make a connection with modern
such experiments in which enormous velocities are achieved on the
order of ten percent of the speed of light, and therefore it created,
the Bell created two vortices of plasma containing very high energy
and generating very high, very strong magnetic fields, among other
recently, new documents have surfaced, saying that – original
German documents – saying that in one of the institutions
affiliated with this research project – namely the research in
institute of the AG Consortium – such a research has been in
fact carried out during the war, and there is a clear link to
gravity. Namely, it has been written in the documents by one of the
participants of this project that what they were... excuse me.
has been written in a document by one of the participants in this
research project that, among other things, they measured the velocity
of the propagation of gravity, and other things. Also, it has been
confirmed in a document that they observed very strange physical
effects such as decaying of structures, decaying of neutrons, for
example. Therefore, such a connection can be made.
on, I was able to connect it exactly, or develop this thread relating
to gravity, develop this aspect, gravitational aspect, of this
device. One indication that the Bell was related to gravity research
was the document from the, actually from American archives from the
Paperclip files, saying that there was a link between a certain
project carried out in the AG research institute, which participated
in this project, that there is certain link with gravity.
indication that it was gravity-related comes from the documents
relating to pre-war activity of a scientist named Professor Walter
Gerlach, who was one of the leading scientists of the Third Reich, by
the way. And he tried to make such a link before the war. He carried
out experiments with mercury, and there is scientific publications,
papers about it, and it can be verified.
all this, all such elements created a certain comprehensive picture
saying that the Bell was generating a very peculiar special kind of
vortices, which display gravitational physical effects. Such a
vortices [are] called ‘solitons.’ It’s a kind of
vortex which is isolated from external fields, generally. First and
foremost, the magnetic field in such a vortex is isolated from
external magnetic or electromagnetic fields. It’s completely
isolated. It’s like with superconductors or superliquidity. And
they actually made such a... were making such a connections and it is
such a vortex should have generate strong anti-gravitational field.
It’s based only on theoretical predictions, based on Einstein’s
theory, but I’m not aware of any specific experiment of the
same kind that would test the same circumstances or the same
situation which the Bell was testing. I am not aware of such an
what I can say is that there is a lot of theoretical predictions
presently which say that it should generate gravitation, such a
plasma vortex should generate a gravitational field. And let me show
you something. There is a whole, there are entire books exploring
this subject, this subject of gravity-related plasma research. And I
didn’t take this book actually with me, but it... Sorry. May I?
KC: That’s fine.
BR: Yes, of course, of course.
IW: Because it substantiates, you know, claim. I don’t remember
where it is. Here. Here is the cover of the book. I will say it
again. Actually there is a lot of... no. Once again. I didn’t
manage to find any description of a modern experiment of exactly the
same kind that was carried out in the Bell or by the Bell. But there
is a lot of theoretical predictions by scientists which say that such
a vortices, named ‘solitons,’ should generate
gravitational or anti-gravitational fields. And there is a cover here
of one of such a books, which is dedicated to this problem. The
problem is, however, such that these are only the theoretical
has made or reproduced such a device and tried to check it out, and
it’s a certain quite interesting phenomenon, because in fact
what the Germans were trying to do with the Bell was to explore
quantum approach to gravity. Because if you have ions spinning,
moving, generating fields, it’s very hard to predict or
calculate gravitational effect of quantum phenomena. It’s
that’s the reason why it’s on the margin, this entire
field which the Germans tried to explore, is on the margin of the
modern physics, because it doesn’t fit. Once you have a quantum
theory on gravity, there is a confirmation in modern physics, in
modern science, that the German approach that I have described,
related to the Bell, makes sense.
it’s very difficult, if not almost impossible, to calculate
precisely any force [that] are generated by such device. Because it’s
generally gravity generated as a byproduct of quantum effect. And the
Einstein theory doesn’t allow such a connection to be made. It
just doesn’t see quantum physics, these are two different
worlds. So, what the German represented would, excuse me... no,
that’s it... about it.
KC: Okay, but are you saying this anti-gravitational field, that might
be created within the Bell-like structure or the Henge-structure, are
you saying this would allow, say, if it wasn’t a helicopter,
let’s say even a disk to levitate... is that what they might
have been doing, levitating?
IW: The problem with the Bell, among others, is such that clearly it
was, or was supposed to be, a part of something larger. And I just
don’t know the part of what, and nobody knows. And as far as
the Henge is concerned, I was just... it was my, you know, free
assumption, that there might have been something larger, some flying
object, of which the Bell was a part. But I really don’t know
BR: Now, many people watching this video will be familiar with the
research that’s been done through documents and photographs –
some of which looked to me to be pretty real – of German flying
disks in, I think, it’s the Haunebu series.
BR: Was it you who brought these to the public’s attention or was
that another research? Because this is something, maybe, where we can
maybe make a connection.
IW: I didn’t want to connect this story about the Bell with the
so-called Nazi UFO legend, because I cannot check it out and what I
did is generally based on verifiable facts, mostly, and makes sense.
It can be connected to modern physics, and so on. So I just didn’t
want to, you know, immerse myself into such a hazy stories like the
Nazi UFO. Although I admit such a possibility, that the Bell could
have been part of some larger flying object. But I didn’t write
about it, because I just don’t know that, and I cannot check it
BR: Okay. Now, as a military historian particularly interested in what
the Nazis may have been doing, you must have been interested to check
out the information from other researchers who produced photographs
and, I think, documents, with what look like blueprints. Are those
photographs and documents authentic? Or do you just not know? Why is
it that that doesn’t feel like compelling evidence to you?
Cause it looks very dramatic.
IW: I am not sure if the so-called blueprints of the Nazi UFO’s
look genuine. I just cannot check it out and therefore I... because I
knew that I would not be able to check it out. I was not interested
in this story. I don’t know that. I...
KC: So, but you’re saying, you found the Henge structure and it
was painted with camouflage, isn’t this true?
IW: Yes, the so-called Henge is a... looks like a finished structure
in the case of a supporting structure for a cooling tower, it would
be completely inside the cooling tower, which is generally filled
with very hot water-vapor. And such a green camouflage paint on the
plaster, it wouldn’t make sense, just because, anyway, it would
be hidden inside of a larger structure. So it just didn’t seem
to me to be part of such a cooling tower.
more fact, suggesting that it wasn’t to be a supporting
structure for a cooling tower; is that there are no foundations
underneath the Henge, to support something that large. Because it
would have to be some 13 stories high. There are no foundations for
such a thing.
question that arose in my mind, when I was trying to research or
investigate the physical aspect of the Bell, was that... the question
whether it was in Germany, in the third Reich, any physical theory
that would allow to perceive, at all, vortices of plasma as sources
of gravity. And to my amazement, I have found one. There was a German
professor named Pascual Jordan, who has developed such a theory
during the war and still is almost unknown. But it was the first
physical theory that treated vortices as sources of gravity.
a piece of the puzzle that convinced me that it all makes sense. And
in fact, I have a co-worker who is a scientist specializing in this
field, and for him it also makes sense. So it’s not any pure
fantasy or something. It’s a real scientific challenge to this
BR: Sure. I must say what interests me about this, is that if we take
that sort of logical line of deduction, which you have been
presenting, that there seems to be an experimenting with some
advanced practical technical way of creating an anti-gravity effect –
it really does look like that – and if this was a war-decisive
technology, the next stage in the logic is that they are trying to
get something to fly in an advanced means of flying propulsion.
so I can’t help, then, but take that logic to the fact that
they were trying to get something to fly that might have been a
disk-shaped object. And a disk-shaped object is perfect to have
something rotating inside, some rotating plasma-effect. It does seem
to fit with some of these stories, rumors, photographs, documents,
that we’ve seen, showing the apparent existence of a very
primitive sort of flying-disk. But
... it just interests me that you don’t feel that you can go
there, because there’s no evidence. I mean those photographs
look real to me.
IW: Yes, but looking at such a photographs of the so called Nazi UFO’s
wouldn’t contribute to my research at all. Because they don’t
convey any substantial information and it wouldn’t, you know,
there is nothing... there’s no entry to any new field in this
IW: You said a very interesting and good thing, that connecting this
with a war-decisive, because it would be such a breakthrough.
BR: Now, just looking again at the fact that we know that this was a
war... it was labeled as a war- decisive project. And it seems to
have had something to do with anti-gravity effects. At that time
there were some cutting-edge physics involved. There are some very
smart people involved in this project. And clearly, the Nazi’s
put a lot of resources behind this and labeled it at the highest
level of secrecy they had. What is your personal idea about what this
could have been used for?
IW: It might have been used as a part of strategic weapons.
Namely as an element of the propulsion system and ... the scientist
working with me on this, as a consultant, has once said that if they
would master such a technology, indeed it would be a greater
breakthrough than construct... than building a nuclear weapon.
Because it would be [the] opening of the entire new area of physics,
field of physics. And it would allow them to make a weapon, carrying
chemical or nuclear warheads for example, or weapons, against which
there would be no defense, as against the V2, there was no defense
it would allow them, really, to conquer the world. And I believe that
the war would be over very quickly, in such a case. One may say also
that the Germans didn’t have nuclear weapons to exploit such a
breakthrough, but they also had chemical weapons and they were,
frankly saying, much more deadly and lethal. It was the newest
generation of neuro-gases, so-called, which was so effective that
they really could inflict major losses within a week or within a
couple of days. And such a breakthrough certainly would be decisive
for the war. So, therefore, also from this point of view it makes
KC: I have to say that I don’t understand how the anti-gravity...
how does that link up with the delivery system?
KC: How is that... if it’s not an UFO, what is it?
IW: Such a breakthrough in physics, in mastering gravity, would enable
the Germans to make a kind of platform object, flying object, against
which there would be no defense, which would be able to reach any
corner of the world and deliver the most destructive, lethal weapons
that they had. Perhaps the Germans didn’t have the nuclear
weapons, but they also had a very destructive chemical arsenal
incomparable, in every respect, with the allied chemical or
biological arsenals. It
would be very deadly, and such a weapon that would enable them to
deliver these weapons of mass-destruction to the major cities of the
United States, for example, would certainly be decisive for the war
and the losses would, on the allied side, would rise in such a
dramatic, at such a dramatic pace, that probably it would end the
BR: Now, let me ask you about nuclear weapons, because Joseph Farrell
and I think also Jim Marrs, and they’re both pretty good
researchers, they believe that the Nazis may have been on the verge
of developing a workable nuclear weapon. In your opinion, is this
IW: The Germans were much closer to manufacturing nuclear weapons than
is generally thought. And
I personally have recovered several documents from various archives,
saying that, describing, for example, places where the nuclear
weapons were actually manufactured, or revealing completely new
segments of the German nuclear program, if there was such, by the
way, because it was so... it is called compartmentalization. To
divide various elements so that there is no, I would say, horizontal
connection, between them. And they don’t know about each other.
have personally recovered many such documents, saying that the German
nuclear program was far more advanced than was previously thought,
especially in the West, mostly because this facilities were located
in the so-called latter Eastern zone. Therefore the Allied, the
intelligence services of the Western allies didn’t have any
access to them. They were located here, in the lower Silesia in the
Czech Republic which was nicknamed by Hitler himself as the SS
the Western researchers never had any idea about it. Apart from the
valley with the Henge, there is the Riese facility, which was
supposed to be the second largest underground armament complex of the
Third Reich. And we, in fact, are in the middle of it, I mean very
close to it. And it was supposed to serve as a final production
assembly line of... devoted to the project of the Bell.
one may draw a conclusion that the Bell was supposed to be part of a
larger weapon that was supposed to be produced here, manufactured
here. And although the Riese was supposed to be the second largest
underground facility in the Third Reich, it was also a small fragment
of a much larger complex. I have recovered documents about it, signed
by Kammler, by General Kammler himself, which says that the Riese was
part of a, as they called it, a S3
Special Construction and Undertaking. In German it was
the document signed by General Kammler himself says that it was the
largest SS project of the entire war. And it’s... it could have
been some equivalent of the American Manhattan Project, because there
was a connection between the means of carrying systems for the
weapons of mass-destruction, perhaps involving the Bell, and the
weapons of mass-destruction themselves. One of the prisoners working
here has mentioned that there was a clear connection between this
facility and the chemical arsenal.
the other hand, there is a scientist researcher who worked for the
government, in the early sixties, [who] has found remnants of some
radioactive substances. I could personally mention a couple of names
of people who died because of radioactivity here. And...
KC: When you say ‘here,’ where exactly do you mean? Could
you show us on the map, what area we’re talking about?
IW: Yes, I can show you on the map.
IW: This is a map showing only the mountain massive in which the Riese
complex has been excavated. And there are specific facilities, such
as here, here, underground facilities, here, here... A lot of them,
around the entire massive.
along with that, there was also infrastructure for such a
construction site, such as sitings of a narrow gauge railway here,
sub-camps of the concentration camp, barracks of the SS, in various
places around there was around 40,000 people, 40-50,000 people
working on it, for a couple of years.
KC: Where was the Henge in reference to this map?
IW: The Henge, in reference to this, is some five kilometers to the
south. It’s out of the map. Riese,
the underground facility, is inside of the mountain massive, under
the entire mountain massive, and on the other side of this massive,
there was a set of bunkers, much like in the... near the Henge
itself, only that they were located mostly underground. And
in one of such a bunker, supposedly, three people found a substance
resembling mercury, only that it was denser. And all of them died of
leukemia and cancer, and such a things. And I knew one of them and I
can say that... it’s just a fact.
BR: Is that substance, or is it possible that that substance, is what
has been referred to in documents – and you may need to remind
me here – is called ‘Serum 525,’ I think it, have I
got that right?
IW: I know people that were killed, I am only not sure what killed
IW: But... because they died of leukemia, various forms of cancer, it
seems likely to me, they described it, when they lived here, they
described the substance as something resembling mercury, only that it
was something jelly-like, not entirely liquid...
IW: ...such a strange state of matter. And it reminded me of the
substance that was supposedly placed inside the Bell, in the core of
the Bell, not in the cylinders that was [were] spinned, which was
code-named ‘serum’ or ‘serum 525.’
IW: And, just from the description, it just seemed something similar,
but I am not sure because I didn’t see it.
BR: Did they say what color it was?
IW: They didn’t.
IW: They didn’t.
BR: What really interests me, about this, because this is all a big
detective story that you are putting together here, is that it was
the singlemost... it was the largest SS project in the war and yet we
know almost nothing about it. I mean that’s really quite a big
clue in itself as to its importance.
as you said, the level of secrecy like the Nazi-equivalent to the
Manhattan Project. That’s fascinating.
IW: Yes, it is indeed fascinating, but we should bear in mind that the
SS had certain advantages for them, namely that they had, to a large
extent, they had their own financing. They didn’t have to
report to any external institutions outside, I mean outside the
empire. The most significant advantage of the SS, from the point of
view of the Third Reich itself, was that they had their own workforce
in the form of prisoners.
was a specially-raised concentration camp, Gross-Rosen, here nearby,
and such a prisoners were called by them as ‘Geheimnisträger’
which means somebody who is carrying literally the secret, which
means that they were connected with the secret until forever and ever
and ever. They couldn’t come out and say and tell anybody else,
KC: But were there any survivors?
IW: Yes, it’s a very good question. None of the over 20,000
prisoners working in the finished central section of the Riese has
survived. One of the prisoners of the Gross-Rosen, who was a writer
in the camp, has testified after the war to the special commission,
that every day he has reported the number of prisoners, working,
living every day, to the people from the SS. And one day he has told
them that, ‘Sirs, there must have been some mistake, because
the number has changed by over 20,000.’ And they smiled and
told him that, ‘No, there is no mistake, it’s okay.’
BR: That’s really sinister, isn’t it? That’s so...
IW: Yes. And probably they have been closed inside this facility, the
central section of the Riese.
BR: What you are really saying here, then, which is something that many
people in the modern world might not fully understand, is that the
SS, they had their own financing, they had their own resources, they
had their own workforce, they were insulated from the rest of the
Nazi party and, basically, they could do anything they wanted to. And
they had really no controls over them whatsoever, is that right?
IW: That’s exactly true, because the Third Reich has occupied many
countries and they used various or employed various companies, forced
laborers from various countries. And normally it was quite hard to
keep something secret, especially involving tens of thousands of
people. And the SS was the only solution to such a problem, because
they could solve this.
BR: Okay. Yeah, I understand.
KC: Okay, but... I think... What, where were these... you said there is
a camp nearby here?
IW: ...the Gross-Rosen concentration camp.
KC: I see. And is it known, is the location known?
IW: The location is known, but the only... really the only part that
left, is a gate and some foundations for the barracks. Because it
wasn’t a concentration camp like Auschwitz, for example, which
was a mass extermination camp. It was, in this case, the camp
Gross-Rosen was really only a distribution center for the workforce.
And the prisoners didn’t stay there for long. They could stay
for a week or something, but not for long. And the entire workforce,
all the prisoners worked in sub-camps...
IW: ...attached to specific undertakings.
BR: It’s like a temporary holding camp.
IW: Yes, just a distribution center.
KC: So, but where were the prisoners kept?
IW: They were kept in wooden barracks mostly, some of them lived
underground in the tunnels. There is a difference between the parts
of the Riese that we know today, which contribute to some 80,000
cubic meters underground, and the German data from the time of the
the armament minister, for example, has stated, according to some
report from September of 1944, that over 220,000 cubic meters was
already made, underground, so there is some 150,000 cubic meters
it’s certainly, I mean, everything indicates that it’s
the central part of the massive, which holds the finished part, where
the prisoners were working on something, manufacturing something,
already before the end of the war. And probably they have been... the
entrances have been blasted off, and they have been closed
BR: Would that have been part of the strategic evacuation?
IW: Yes, pretty much, probably the same office of the Reich’s
central security office was dealing with that. And evacuations were
just an extension of such measures, aimed at securing crucial
potential, for the post-war period.
BR: When you were traveling here in the car, you used a term that I
found most interesting, which
was ‘strategic evacuation,’ and that indicated to me that
this process of evacuating, to wherever they evacuated to and
whatever they evacuated and whoever they evacuated, after the war,
was something that was carefully planned. It was like a strategic
withdrawal, it wasn’t just everyone running for the door.
was something that was a carefully coordinated military plan. Now,
when do you think that plan was established? How soon, before the
formal end of the war, did they start to think, ‘You know what?
We’re not going to make this through as was planned. We are
have to go to plan B.’ And
what do you think that plan B was? This is something that is hugely
interesting and of course, just to continue that question, for some
people who suspect that many of the key Nazis and maybe much of the
technology survived the war and was exported elsewhere, this is a
really important question.
IW: The Germans were forced, initially, by the allied air raids, to
develop a set of operations, aimed at securing the most crucial
potential. Initially, just to prevent it from being destroyed by the
allied bombs, but the extension of this operations were the so-called
strategic evacuations, aimed at evacuating the most crucial
resources, such as scientific heritage of the Third Reich, and so on,
was a set of deals signed with Japan and with Argentina, that was to
facilitate such evacuations and in fact everything indicates that the
Bell project was evacuated to Argentina and was continued for some
time, because there is a clear connection and continuity. One of
several, I mean not one, but several people, from the project,
continued the work in Argentina. And they also mentioned later on
about gravitational aspect of the plasma physics and so on.
KC: So who were these people that were running this whole part of the
KC: Well, not just evacuation but also the Riese facility. Who were
IW: The institution responsible for this project involving Riese and
latter vicinity, which was code named S3,
Special Construction Undertaking S3, was the Kammler’s office.
It was called ‘SonderStaff,’ which means special staff
for special undertakings related to armament production, the most
state-of-the-art, involving the most state-of-the-art weapons. Sorry
KC: Okay, but... so it was Himmler, you’re saying. [Ed. Note: Igor
Witkowski was referring to Hans
IW: Yes, the SS generally.
KC: Yeah, but who particularly from the SS when you say they also
continued their work in South America? What, who are we talking
KC: The SS was coordinating the research, the project, as such, but
wasn’t involved in the research. There were no scientists in
KC: Who was involved? Do we know the names of anybody?
IW: Yes, we do. The most important was Professor Walter Gerlach who was
responsible for the physical aspect of this project. The project was
code named Chronos/Laterned
Trigger. The one code name referred to the physical aspect of it. The
other one referred to medical or biological aspect. And it is not
certain which one referred to which one, but the project was code
named Chronos. [Ed. Note: further research and discussions about the
Bell, who was involved, and code names can be found here]
BR: Which means time.
IW: It doesn’t mean time exactly. It means a Greek god...
KC: Yes, it is a god.
KC: And he was the god...
IW: ...who gave people something.
IW: I don’t remember now ... but it is a very interesting legend
about it. I mean as far as Greek mythology is concerned. It is not
time, as such.
IW: It’s interesting. We are checking it out. The most important
person was Professor Walter Gerlach in this project, who was
responsible for the physical aspect of it. He researched on the
spinning of mercuric ions, extensively before the war. Tried to
connect it with the so-called isolated vortices which means solitons.
It’s all verified, published and so on.
other person was SS Gruppenführer Ernst-Robert Grawitz. He was
the only SS scientist in the team who was responsible for the medical
and biological effects, aspect of this project and he was Chief of
the Institute of Hygiene of the Waffen SS. But he committed suicide
before the end of the war.
KC: What about Wernher von Braun?
IW: There is no indication saying that Wernher von Braun or all the
rocket scientists were involved in this project, except for one.
There is one whose name was Kurt Debus who was responsible for the
high voltage equipment related to the Bell. And he worked later for
NASA. He was one of the directors of NASA.
BR: Joseph Farrell showed us some interesting photographs of Kurt Debus
and Wernher von Braun together at NASA, which is an interesting
question. It remains unanswered.
KC: He’s working on rocket, not just NASA but working in Florida
on a rocket program.
IW: Debus was one of the few, the only one scientist that was recruited
And that is probably why he has been employed by the NASA after the
war, becoming one of its directors. There is no indication at all, I
mean, at least I didn’t found any, saying that this project or
this entire field of physics was continued in the United States after
couldn’t find anything except for the very modern research by
Sandia Laboratories which were experimenting with such vortices and
so on. But shortly after the war, no, I couldn’t find any
confirmation that it was continued in the United States or evacuated
to United States.
BR: But the implication of what you are saying is that if the personnel
and resources and the Bell itself were evacuated maybe to Argentina,
then presumably that would have been with the intention of the
project being continued there. What happened to that?
IW: The continuation of the project in Argentina took place until the
fall of the Perón government. After that the entire research
team has been disbanded. The main scientist, which was Ronald
Richter, started fearing about his life, and, as far as I know, he
has escaped from Argentina. So it was continued but to some extent.
I’m not sure if it was finished. When I was talking with one of
the directors of the research center built for the Germans there, he
suggested to me clearly that it is still a subject of secrecy and
that he has no access to such documents.
BR: But that’s fascinating. I mean, this is something which we
haven’t heard about in this detail. That’s fascinating.
So you are saying that it is known that there is a research facility
in Argentina that was devoted to this Nazi science and you’ve
got access into some of those details.
IW: Yes, there is a set of documents pertaining to work carried out in
the Research Institute of the AG Consortium during the war by Debus
and by Richter who was continuing the project in Argentina. There is
a clear reference in these documents, a connection between plasma
physics and gravity, and the same connection appears later on in the
Argentine context, but it was discontinued for unclear reasons.
KC: Okay, but what are you saying in terms of the evacuation committee,
the relationship between the evacuation committee and these
scientists who were working here?
KC: Wasn’t there some relationship between the SS who were in
charge of the evacuation and the scientists who were working on the
IW: There was no such direct relation because a different body was
responsible for the evacuation. Different institution was responsible
for the evacuation and different one coordinated the research itself
here. So there is no connection between the evacuation, the personnel
from the evacuation and the scientists, no direct connection.
KC: But weren’t the scientists evacuated?
IW: Some of the scientists were evacuated but not all of them. Two went
up in Argentina, ended up in Argentina, which is Richter; there was
some engineer from the AG, associated with the AG Research Institute
named Hermann, who continued the work there in Argentina, but I don’t
remember all the details of it.
KC: Okay, and where are the other scientists, where did the other
scientists go, if not to Argentina?
IW: Frankly saying, I know only about three, four or five persons
associated with this project. Of course the number has to be higher,
but I know just about a few of them and the most significant,
Professor Walter Gerlach, stayed in Germany after the war but he
never, not only returned to what he was doing during the war, but he
never published any scientific publications about the same subjects
in which he was involved in before the war, for example. He just
completely detached himself from this field of physics.
KC: What about the other four?
IW: Debus was employed by NASA in the United States, although he was an
SS officer. And an ardent one. And he never, wasn’t interested
as well to go back to such a subjects, because one can imagine that
it involved possible accusations about experiments on humans or
wanting to, you know, wipe out some significant part of the
population of the United States, for example, which implied him. So
he wasn’t interested in going back to such subjects either.
of the scientists, professor and SS Gruppenführer Ernst Grawitz,
committed suicide before the end of the war, so there is a... this
story has disconnected. And the other ones... I don’t know
details about their fates.
BR: Okay. What happened to Hans Kammler? And, maybe just tell us a
little bit about who Hans Kammler was...
BR: ...and why he was such an important figure.
IW: Because of various reasons, Hitler has decided to entrust the
management of the most secret and most state-of-the-art armament
projects in the hands of one man who was SS General, Hans Kammler,
who was very skilled organizer and very ruthless as well. But he was,
in a way, [a] materialization of a certain trend of SS grasping even
more fields of the German economy and, among other things, Kammler
has controlled all the production of jet fighters, of jet airplanes,
of the rocket missiles and various other fields, and he became [a]
very influential person in the Third Reich.
it is completely unclear what happened to him. He has disappeared in
the occupied Czech territories and there is no... never any traces
surfaced which would indicate that he ended up in some other country
or something. I don’t know but he...
KC: So he was instrumental, though, you are saying that he was
running, for all intensive purposes, this Riese...
IW: Facility, complex. Yeah.
KC: ...facility or complex or whatever you want to call it.
IW: Both. Mm-hm. Mm-hm. Yes, he was instrumental in controlling not
the Riese and the larger S3 undertaking, but virtually all the most
state-of-the-art and crucial armament projects of the Third Reich by
the end of the war. And then he has vanished. He just disappeared
somewhere in the occupied Czech territories and there was never any
trace of him after the war.
KC: Was there ever any indication that Hitler visited the Riese?
IW: There are rumors that he did but... and nearby there was
headquarters, Hitler’s headquarters, under construction. But
personally, I believe that he didn’t visit it, because it would
attract attention of the enemies to this place which was still almost
unknown except for the Russians which were very well oriented in this
KC: What do you mean the Russians were well oriented in this business?
IW: Several years ago, I have talked with a man who was employee of the
Academy of the General Staff in Poland, military, and he told me
about who coordinated, for example, the scientific aspect of the
intelligence reconnaissance of this area on the Russian side. And he
has mentioned certain person who... Lev Andreevich Artsimovich,
academician – which is something higher than professor in the
former Soviet Union.
as later I have checked out, he was specializing in thermonuclear
physics and plasma physics and exactly was more or less the
equivalent of Gerlach. So they had to have a pretty good and clear
idea about what was going on here, contrary to the Western allies.
KC: This sounds like there must have been some kind of on-the-ground
relationship between the Russians and the Germans during that time.
IW: Yes. It is a very interesting question and such a relationship can
be traced back to the pre-war period. In a very strange and amazing
way. Namely that Professor Walter Gerlach was trying to make
something on the basis of such a vortices that I mentioned on the
solitons, has consulted the Soviet Nobel Prize winner, Pyotr Kapitsa
– who was of Polish origins by the way, his parents were Polish
– and because Kapitsa has developed theory describing such a
vortices before the war. It pertained to so-called super fluidity but
the description is the same because this are almost the same kinds of
vortices. So there was such a cooperation...
IW: ...probably Kapitsa, or the Soviet partner of Gerlach, wasn’t
aware of what was the purpose of that. And, obviously it was before
the beginning of the war with the Soviet Union. But there are certain
connections between the Third Reich and the Soviet Union in this
respect, often amazing ones.
BR: Let me ask you a question which goes into a different area here.
still really interested in the Argentina connection...
BR: ...and how you say that, as far as you can tell, that activity
ceased around about the breakup of the Perón administration.
But surely after the war, the Americans would have been very aware of
what was happening in Argentina. Their intelligence capacity would
have informed them of what they were doing. Surely the Americans knew
about all of this.
IW: I’m not sure if the Americans knew this because – just
an example to give you some idea – there was a very ambitious
effort by the Israeli Special Services [Mossad] to kill the Nazi war
criminals hiding in Argentina after the war. And it all failed, and
as far as I know from the materials that I saw – commonly known
only that it may not be known in the UK or the United States, but it
is based on the materials published in Poland – it seems that
they didn’t even manage to work out how the Nazi organizations
work in Argentina.
didn’t really have an idea. That is my impression. So I’m
not really sure. It was a very well organized system created by the
Germans in Argentina. It was not a group of amateurs. They were all
professionals and it was pre-arranged and very well planned. And it
worked like a professional system and had backing of the Argentine
services, such as counter intelligence. They co-worked
with each other. And I wouldn’t say that it is so obvious that
the United States knew about what was going on at the time. I’m
not that sure.
BR: There must have been something in it for Argentina as a state
though. There must have been some quid
some exchange for Argentina, for them to have taken this risk of
harboring all of this activity, these resources, these scientists,
IW: Yes, there was a kind of a deal...
IW: ...between the Germans and certain people or services from
Argentina, because... not with Argentina as such; a deal in which the
Argentines got the technology which they tried to develop later on.
They got a lot of money from the capitals of the Nazi party, of the
SS, of the Third Reich as a whole, in exchange providing security and
some kind of hideout for these people. It was kind of a deal and
KC: But didn’t you say that there were companies that developed
relationships – I think maybe you even said...
KC: ...even before the war with the Germans... with Argentine
because there were materials in Argentina that they were bringing and
shipping over here for use.
KC: Even perhaps in the Riese area.
IW: Yes. Always the Germany maintained a very high-level industrial
links with Argentina, or commercial links, even before the war. And
because there is – that is one of the reasons – because
there is a very high German minority there. It may not be very
numerous but it is influential and always was influential. And these
personal connections or connections between institutions, for
example, Peròn was educated in a German military academy,
later on he served as an Argentine military attaché in Berlin.
so they didn’t really have to look far for such a connection.
It was natural and that natural extension of such links was that,
during the war, Argentina as a neutral country has provided precious
for the war raw materials for the Third Reich. And later on the same
connections, the same links, the same organizational infrastructure
was used to evacuate certain things to Argentina, so there was a
fluent transition from one stage to another. It was...
KC: But weren’t there also certain raw materials that are special?
In other words, they can’t be found in Europe, that you said
that Germany was getting from Argentina.
IW: Yes, Argentina was a kind of a gateway to the entire South America
from which they could obtain various precious materials such as
platinum, such as tungsten ... a whole lot of stuff, and it worked
very well. Argentina could ship it to Spain, for example, or to
Sweden. Even grains, such as rye, food in large numbers and it worked
KC: What about the close proximity to Antarctica ... of Argentina?
IW: [sigh] For a long time, I thought that it’s a kind of a
fantasy that Antarctica, the Antarctic played a role in such
measures, but once I have received a signal saying the contrary. It
was very strange, because I just thought that... I just couldn’t
imagine the Antarctic being used for such a... to build a base, for
example. Because there is, it is not a place to live. There is no
infrastructure, nothing at all. Moreover, everything is visible from
apparently there was some ... a net of supplying bases, provisional
bases out there, maybe not exactly in the Antarctic but on the
islands surrounding the Antarctic, lying between the Antarctic and
South America, for example. Because once I have had such a signal,
yes, that there was some Germans who were performing some duty there.
BR: What do you mean a signal? Do you mean a clue? Do you mean some
information? Do you mean something that somebody told you? What does
that mean, a signal?
IW: One of the clues that our services had after the war about
evacuation of this things, about the activity of the special
evacuations commander to be exact, was coming from a German courier,
which was contacting the agents left here. I mean not exactly in this
area but somewhere else, but also related to this research and to the
activity of the evacuation commander. And he was arrested, and
testified, but he didn’t know very much.
the only thing that he knew is that these things had been evacuated
somewhere, to some place lying far in the South. He came from Uruguay
so one could guess that it’s about South America or farther in
the South. But he has only mentioned one geographical name of a
company. It wasn’t certain what it was, name anyway: Aborus
[Ed. Note: spelling uncertain].
for years and for decades various people, as far as I know, were
trying before me, trying to unravel what it was, what it could have
been. And nobody has ever found any clue about it. But once,
unexpectedly, I have received such a signal, such an information,
namely that one of the crucial persons involved in the evacuations,
generally – evacuations of the SS. I don’t know if he
knew anything about the Bell and so on – but one of the crucial
persons on the part of the SS as far as the evacuations were
concerned to South America was a certain officer named Gottfried
Sandstäter [Ed. Note: we were unable to track the correct
spelling of this name] working there as an agent.
my friend, a friend of mine calling, has managed to talk to his son.
And his son has said two things. That the Aborus
existed. I mean, he didn’t really want to talk about it but...
it was uneasy subject for him. But such a thing as Aborus did exist
and it was a base for the submarines in Argentina. And the other
thing, he has just shortly mentioned that his father has shortly, for
a short time, for half a year after the war, has served duty on the
Antarctic. And it was the only confirmation saying that the Antarctic
played some role in such an evacuation. Although I disregarded this
initially because it didn’t seem possible for me to establish
anything of that.
BR: I remember that Joseph Farrell showed us some photographs of this
huge Junkers six-engine plane that was known to have evacuated a lot
of material to Norway, I believe it was. Is that right? Have I
understood that right?
BR: And if so, what happened after that?
IW: Yes. There was a special plane, in fact appropriated by Hans
who was coordinating, who played some part in the evacuations as
well. And this plane supposedly took the – I’m not sure –
something related to the Bell Project or to the Chronos Project. I’m
not sure if it was the Bell itself or just the documentations, but
something related to the project, and landed in Norway, in the border
base in the north of Norway which was one of the few relatively safe
airbases that the Germans had at the end of the war.
then for some time, the trace has vanished. I mean no plane, nothing.
And only after many years, my coworker from South America, from
Uruguay, has reported to me that there is a photograph of this plane
that was supposedly made near the town – on the airstrip in the
jungle – near the town of Gualeguay
in Uruguay. And supposedly the shipment has been moved to Argentina,
evacuated to Bariloche in Argentina, and they just got rid of the
plane in the... leaving it in the... pulling it into the Uruguay
River and supposedly it is still lying on the river bed. I didn’t
check it out.
BR: That’s a fascinating story. That plane could have, it had the
range to go from Norway to Argentina or to Uruguay if necessary.
IW: It didn’t have the range to go to Argentina directly because
it’s around 15,000 kilometers or so from Norway, but it could
go to Uruguay. And in fact it was one of the very few airplanes able
to refuel in flight.
BR: That’s interesting. I didn’t know they had that
technology in the war.
IW: And they did.
KC: Okay. But also, didn’t you say that there were thousands
IW: I mean... not...
KC: ...there a number? Did you say 50,000?
IW: There are around 50,000 Germans emigrated, or more officially or
unofficially, or under false names, to Argentina. That’s what
is estimated. And the question is, how many of them were really
evacuated in a pre-planned way. It is estimated that the order of
5,000 or ten percent. It’s hard to say, really.
BR: That’s a fascinating mystery again. We’ve got mysteries
within mysteries here. There’s so much...
BR: ...that’s still unknown, even 60 years later. We still
IW: I remember in [unclear] but for the record, as you wish, but just a
curiosity... I remember a documentary in which some Jew was telling
his story about his emigration to South America where he had some
family, shortly after the war. He wanted to go to Argentina, but they
didn’t let him in, obviously. So he took a ship to Uruguay
which is on the other side of the La Plata River. And he recalled one
day in the afternoon on the ship, somebody has raised a glass of wine
or something, and saying to somebody else by the other table, that,
‘Herr Captain, you have killed 5,000 Jews,’ and raised
BR: That’s amazing.
IW: No it was really... what they were doing out there in Argentina.
They knew that they are safe and they did it pretty much openly. I
IW: ...for example, one of the key persons in the Nazi structure, in
organization, in Bariloche,
had a false name, for example, but when he establish a company, the
company had the assessorants in the name, in the log. So it was
pretty much open.
BR: Yeah there’s so many... There’s so...
KC: Oh, very interesting. What is, I just have to ask, this mountain,
you say that the entrance or...
IW: I mean ... here, yes?
KC: Yes, here. You’re saying that we’re quite close to.
You’re saying the entrance seems to have been bombed or closed.
IW: Blown up.
KC: Blown up.
IW: Because you know, if you want to blow up entrance to a tunnel, you
drill holes at that of, actually in this case, the order of two
meters, and the explosive charge is placed on the end of that hole.
So, when it explodes,
you then have pieces of rock with holes going through from one side
to another, you know. So, from that you can guess that it has been...
it didn’t collapse naturally.
BR: Yeah. I understand that, I’ve seen things like that in mines.
IW: I will show you that because it’s a...
IW: ...15 minutes walk.
KC: But where...
IW: Not in this conditions.
KC: I see. But do you have any evidence or have you gotten any
KC: ...that when it was closed down, when did they close it off?
IW: No, nothing. Only that piece of information from the former
presenters, from Gross-Rosen. Very few people have survived
I mean, there was evacuation in March of 1945. The trains going from
one station to another and then back because the front has shifted
from unexpectedly, and such a things, and sometimes it happens that a
prisoner managed to escape from such a train. You know, it was
complete chaos at that time. But, as I mentioned, all those who
worked in the finished part of the Riese have been... just never left
BR: Yeah. Their secrets died with them.
IW: That was the simplest method.
BR: The simplest method. These guys, it’s very, very hard for us
IW: A practical approach.
BR: Yeah, pragmatic.
KC: So what you’re saying is... you’re talking about 20,000
IW: Just over 20,000, yeah.
KC: Now, in terms of...
IW: Supposedly they were driven underground, it took three days.
you know, 20,000 it’s a population of a small town. You just
don’t... it’s not like entering the bath, you know, just
go in. So it’s a lot of people. So whole trains.
KC: You’re saying it took three days. Are you saying...
IW: Supposedly. I knew a guy from our services who got locked at [name
unclear and our search wasn’t conclusive; sounds like “Matt
Unions”]. He’s dead. I’ve collected sessions [same
name, unclear] and among other things, supposedly, he had such a
testimony or document. I don’t know what it was.
KC: But wouldn’t this, I mean, in a sense... I don’t know
what the actual numbers were for the death of the people in the
various camps in Nazi Germany, but the overall numbers.
KC: How does this 20,000 compare, for example, to the number who died
Auschwitz and so on?
IW: It’s very little. All this prisoners, the number of all this
prisoners going through the Gross-Rosen concentration camp was
relatively known to us. I don’t know really, I don’t
know, but it’s the order of 100,000 compared to around three
and a half millions, exterminated in Auschwitz I guess. I’m not
sure. So it wasn’t much, but you know, all the combined number
of prisoners going through the subcamps of the Riese was around
40,000 or 50,000. So 20,000 in this respect was quite a lot. So,
generally, very few people have survived who have anything to say
IW: Very few.
BR: Yes. It’s not a question of these guys going into an
extermination camp. They were just presumably exterminated once they
ceased to become useful. It’s... this is the expedient
IW: Mm-hm. Exactly.
BR: ...which these guys had.
IW: Only the project, generally the project, may I say? It’s...
BR: Yes? Best of all.
IW: Apparently the entire project was a result of a cooperation between
the SS and the Luftwaffe who had a monopoly on the Air Force,
generally. Luftwaffe is ‘air force’ in German. And the
Luftwaffe wanted to create much better conditions for the prisoners,
and according to the prisoner who worked in technical chancellory
of the Gross-Rosen camp, there was a special commander of prisoners
in Ludwikowice and Ludwigsdorf, where the Henge is, which was under
supervision of the Luftwaffe, not of the SS, which had pretty
exceptional conditions, exceptionally good.
meals with milk, warm dinners, unlike in the concentration camp of
the SS. But supposedly it was some special commander working on
something very important. And obviously, as one can guess, they
didn’t survive. Sometimes such exceptions had happened that the
conditions were much better. There
was also a special commander of children here used for the
experiments, around 200 children, supposedly.
IW: I have to check it out, but there is a researcher specializing in
KC: Well, that would be of special interest because the use of children
IW: Mentally handicapped children.
KC: Oh mentally hand... really? Do you know, were they autistic?
IW: I don’t know that.
BR: Mmh. Okay.
KC: Because there is some new information coming forward about autism
and the link between autism...
KC: ...and being precognitive. In other words, seeing the future.
IW: I mean, there is a...
KC: And there would be some link to Chronos.
IW: There is an assumption that they were used for the experiments,
because one of the persons playing a crucial role here, which I just
forgot to say about him, was Professor Hubertus Strughold who was
pioneer of space-medicine and he ran an underground facility nearby
which is, as I mentioned, there was an SS, special S3 undertaking
encompassing Riese, probably the Ludwikowice-Ludwigsdorf and various
other places, facilities, and one of them was the underground
space-research facility run by Professor Hubertus Strughold.
said about it in an interview for a Polish journalist in the 1960’s
or something, I don’t remember, and he has said that he has
tested some kind of... he said that it was a simulator of space
flight, but actually it was controllable. Namely, that when the
propulsion worked very intensively or high energy – it was in
volts, something like that – the thing, the cabin
capsule-system, whatever, I don’t know, was hard to control,
for example. And it was known that this command of children was
dedicated to his research post.
it was assumed that they were used, these children, for experiments,
but it cannot be certain, perhaps for other reasons. He was a
professor of medicine. So various things are possible. I just don’t
KC: Okay, but Chronos. To get back to the notion of the top secret sort
IW: Uh-huh. I would just recommend checking it out in the internet or
KC: Yes, but no, I’m saying that there is something to do with the
idea of seeing into the future in Chronos. In other words, I believe
it’s the father of...
IW: Yeah, I under...
KC: ...of time or seeing forward...
IW: I under... I understand that but...
KC: ...and there’s a link between the Bell and antigravity, and
IW: You know...
KC: ...being able to move into or see through the future...
KC: ...because there is a link with – of course you won’t be
familiar probably with the looking glass, what we know of as looking
KC: ...that Dan Burisch talks about.
IW: No, I do not.
KC: But this is the technology in which you can see into the future.
IW: You know, gravity is about time space, so there is no way to
disconnect space from time, and gravity from time in this respect,
but I don’t think that they would be interested in time.
Namely, it wasn’t useful in any, say, in any way to save the
KC: Not in any obvious way...
KC: ...except for the chosen name Chronos. One...
IW: No, I...
KC: ...would say that it can’t quite be made accidental.
IW: I wouldn’t... yeah... I... yeah. I wouldn’t worry about
it, because code names by definition are misleading.
KC: Do you think so?
IW: [laughs] That is cruel.
BR: Well, an example of that is Project Paperclip. What does that mean?
IW: The purpose of it. So...
KC: Well, they may be misleading on the surface and yet there may be a
deeper meaning in terms of the occult...
IW: As I mentioned...
KC: ...because there is often an occult significance that does have
actual... between science and symbols.
IW: It had to be related to time anyway, so it is possible. But I don’t
think that they would be interested in using time.
KC: Okay, but in terms of an antigravity, using antigravity as a
propulsion system or as a method of what you called getting... in
other words, if you’re getting, distributing...
IW: Making a weapon to...
KC: ...a weapon’s, a delivery system...
KC: ...it almost seems that that in itself wouldn’t be an
IW: It could be. Right.
KC: ...because if you have to... if you use antigravity to get
from one place to another, isn’t it possible that you also, the
thing itself, cannot be... it has to lose mater... because it must
dematerialize in a sense...
KC: ...to get from one place to another.
IW: No. No.
KC: Isn’t there a sense of that?
IW: No. Because various experiments on gravity were conducted and I
didn’t hear about such a thing.
BR: No. She’s sure. I would actually say that this would be pure
cutting edge research that they were doing. They didn’t know
where this was going to lead, but they knew that this was something
that was unknown and therefore potentially useful, because that’s
the way they looked at everything.
KC: Well, wouldn’t the...
IW: The most striking, sorry, the most striking thing for me is that
they had developed theory, as I mentioned. Professor
Pascual Jordan, in connection with Professor Gerlach, had developed a
theory describing this on the basis of quantum physics, which could
be a breakthrough. Almost nobody knows about it. He was supposed to
be, to receive a Nobel Prize after the war for that.
after his connections, you know, links from the time were revealed
partially, somebody else has got the Nobel Prize. But that’s
strange thing, because it cannot be debunked. And it was itself a
breakthrough. It was... I don’t have to add...
IW: ...that Einstein’s approach wasn’t that obvious for
them, for ideological reasons. That’s one reason. And the other
one, Germany was amateur on quantum physics.
IW: And they had no reasons to believe a theory which is abstracted
everything else in the physical world. That’s... okay. [laughs]
KC: Well, maybe because I’m not a physicist, but...
KC: ...is there some way you can draw some kind of parallel into... I
mean, because you’re acting as though everything needed to be
very practical, and yet this in itself is a theory of matter, right?
KC: So in a sense, the experiments that, if there was such a thing as
the Bell and if they were experimenting with antigravity, in a
sense... and it was a delivery system was the end result, then what
would be the method of delivery, using antigravity? Would it be a
craft of some kind?
IW: A craft of some kind.
KC: Would it be...
IW: There, there would...
KC: ...a craft that would, in other words – just let me finish
this thought – because thinking about this mountain that you
told me, asked me to take a look at, and this sort of rocket or
whatever, and I’m wondering would it be useful if the rocket...
KC: ...were to use antigravity. In other words, to use a normal
propellant to get up...
IW: It wouldn’t be...
KC: ...but at some point...
IW: It wouldn’t be a rocket. The subject has been described as
oblong or ball shaped, and it would just fly everywhere. You know,
one of the unresolved aspect of this physics based on these theories
is such that in the documents relating to Richter in the American
Paperclip files, it has been described... very strange thing. I’m
not sure if it will be familiar to you or not, but certain... it
could stay behind this decomposing or decaying structures. It’s
a long story.
will not tell about it because it will be very long. But as it has
been described in this document, a certain exchange mechanism of
energy has been detected... discovered. And the result of that was
such that apparently energy has appeared out of nothing, which means
that, which could have mean, that such a vortices... I just wanted to
say that perhaps it didn’t even need any significant amount of
power except for the setting it in motion.
such a vortex... it’s also called as a ‘ball-shape type
vortex’. The main feature of such a thing is that it is
isolated from the external... no, I will say differently. I was
talking with plasma physicists about vortices in plasma, and he was
saying that generally if you have a discharge, electric discharge in
plasma, often some vortices are generated, but they are visible only
on ultra-fast photographs, because they live for microseconds or
nanoseconds or something.
it’s a gas, generally, which is under very high pressure. Very
hot. And it dissipates the energy and just didn’t live very
long. But on the other hand, you have ball lightning, for example,
which lives for a minute.
BR: Or sometimes longer.
IW: Or sometimes longer. And there is a different, completely different
mechanism. It’s not such a normal vortex as we can see
normally. Because the fields are isolated, then it’s almost
entirely a different world in itself, such a bubble of closed
time-space in a way. Because it penetrates obstacles such as glass
IW: ...metal and...
BR: It goes right through it.
IW: It doesn’t need energy. It needs energy to create it, but once
it spins, it don’t, it doesn’t...
IW: ...almost, when compared to, when you compare microsecond with a
minute, you have the order of millions.
BR: Yes. Yup. Understood.
IW: Perhaps it wouldn’t even need a source of energy, significant
source of energy.
BR: Yes, once it’s created.
IW: Various interesting...
BR: Fascinating topic.
BR: Fascinating. So, Igor, thank you so much.
IW: Yeah, no problem. My pleasure.
BR: I have a request for you, actually, this evening if possible.
BR: I know there’s a beautiful new book, and I can’t read a
word of it, but I’d love to look at some of the images.
KC: Oh, but it is also striking, this picture that you had.
IW: There is one more interesting things, maybe not for the camera.
KC: You could turn it off.
IW: There is a document about Professor Strughold, the one that was...
BR: Strughold, yeah.
IW: ...a pioneer of space medicine.
KC: Oh really.
BR: And he was taken over in Paperclip.
IW: As I mentioned, what kind of experiments you can adapt here. And
there is some... it’s from American author, so it’s in
English. The Chief of the Department of Space Medicine, at Randolph
Air Force Base, he said yesterday, ‘In the field of space
medicine, we are not behind anyone. The same things that the Russians
are doing with a dog, we are finding out with men.’
BR: And that is interesting. Yes, yes.
IW: You know, if you place it in a different context...
BR: Yes. This is the...
IW: It’s written by Strughold.
IW: It is written by Strughold. Okay.
BR: Yes. They may be talking about the dog Laika.
IW: They didn’t need to...
KC: Is it the dog that went into space?
IW: They didn’t need any dog.
BR: Yes, the name is Laika.
IW: ‘We’re not behind anyone.’
KC: The Philadelphia Experiment took place in what year?
IW: I don’t know. I know almost nothing about the Philadelphia
BR: I think that was...
KC: Well, it’s just that it happened after the war, though.
BR: No no, it’s before the war. That was ‘42.
IW: I will show you one more thing.
BR: Yeah. That was ‘41 or ‘42 I think.
IW: That is Ludwikowice here.
BR: Yeah. I’d be interested to... I don’t know whether
KC: Are there Russians living in this part of Poland?
IW: No. Not at all.
BR: Okay. So I’m looking... now I’ve got an image of the
IW: Excuse me.
BR: Okay, go ahead.
IW: May I say something?
IW: There is the valley, where the Henge is. The Henge is... that’s
the general place, structure, and all this roads here lined up with
concrete and they lead to other objects in the entire area. The
entire valley was turned into, transformed into a closed, Area
BR: Yup. That’s a... I’ve got a good image of that.
IW: That’s the mountain massive. And that’s, for example,
one of the underground facilities. You can see the pattern here.
These are sightings of the narrow gauge railway, so you have some
idea about infrastructure. It was pretty extensive.
KC: The railway. You’re talking about a railway. Is that a railway
on top of the ground or underneath?
IW: On top, entering the underground facilities then.
KC: I see. Was it used originally by the mine?
IW: No. There was no mine. It’s the Riese. The mine was on the
IW: ...side of the map. Sorry my hand’s shaking.
BR: Okay. Is that a special map about war time activities? Is that what
BR: I saw the swastika on it. Yes.
IW: So, maybe you’ll... for example...
BR: These docu.... yeah that’s...
IW: It’s good. You may possess it later.
BR: Yes, and this was... yes.
IW: It’s Sonderbauvorhaben
S3. It says that there was a larger undertaking than the Riese, and
that it was the largest such a project of the SS at all. And the
BR: Which part of it...
IW: ...is signed by Kammler.
BR: Does it say Kammler?
IW: Here. It doesn’t say but...
BR: It doesn’t...
IW: ...it’s just his signature.
BR: Okay. Is it important stuff, where it says that it’s the
IW: Just a moment. Okay.
BR: ...just that little phrase.
IW: The document says that... right here it says: which means Himmler,
has ordered certain things to do, but Kammler responds that it is not
possible because the office C-4, because there’s this office,
is completely engaged with Sonderbauvorhaben S3, and therefore cannot
execute such a tasks. It’s absorbed with all its forces, ‘mit
allen Kräften,’ with this project. And therefore cannot
execute anything else.
IW: ‘With all its forces.’ You know, when Kammler responds
that all his forces of his office are engaged in something...
BR: Yeah. It means he’s doing something that’s top priority.
BR: Yes, I understand. Fascinating.
IW: And at the same time, something unknown, completely.
BR: Yes, yes, yup.
IW: I have a, it not says that it’s Riese, but just a moment. I
have such a state from a, it’s a book, it’s called List
of Code Names of German Underground Undertakings.
BR: Oh that’s interesting. Mm-hm.
IW: ...which says that the S3
encompassed the Hitler’s headquarters in East Prussia, Riese,
Bashalottenbau [Ed. Note: name unclear and correct spelling was not
found] was about of the Riese, Rudiger which is a communication
center for the Riese, and for the entire area here, and Fürstenstein
which was Hitler’s headquarters. Also within the S3
15 kilometers from here.
BR: Okay. Got it. Thank you. All right. So, thank you very much, Igor,
for this fascinating testimony. I know that this is a research in
progress. It continues, and I would really like to keep in touch with
you to learn what you continue to learn as you’re following
this very interesting trail. Thank you.
IW: Thank you too. It’s my pleasure.
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