John Lear Tells All:

transcript - Part 1

This page is a reformatted version of the original Project Camelot publication.

John Lear Tells All
Part 1

Las Vegas, Nevada, April 2008

(continued in Part 2, Part 3 and Part 4)

John Lear: Absolutely would be probably what they’re going to do.

...They’re going to put a hologram and say, oh, we’re being attacked, you know, by aliens, ah, we’ve made a deal with the ambassador. And he says that they feel that Earth is a threat and that - but if you all take all, any, weapons you have and turn them in, that that they’ll give us a second chance...

J: I would take them and freeze them in a position twenty miles out at 7,000 feet, at 560 mph, put them in the seat, say, you know, and then give them two minutes of looking at the horizons, show them where the World Trade Center is, and ah say, I’m about to release you and when I do, ah, you’ll have a minute and fifty seconds to hit dead center. It’s, it’s impossible. At the height of my career, as proficient as I was in every kind of airplane, there’s no way I could have done that, I mean, it’s just too complex.

J: It’s the same thing with 2012. It’s just going to be a year like every other year. We’re going to have, to continue to have these wars. We will probably have a nuclear war, you know, but things are just, you know, going to go along fine.

Kerry Cassidy: And I even have a hunch that you might have been part of MJ-12, at one point...

J: It was December 6th, of 1988. Bob comes, sits down, and [pauses] he says: “I saw a disk today,” and I’m writing out checks there, you know, and I’m not paying attention and I say “WHAT?” He says “I saw a disk today”, and I, “A disk, theirs or ours?” And he says, “theirs”. I said, “You went to Groom Lake?” And he said “Yeah.” And I said, “What are you doing HERE?” I said. “Obviously they’re going to follow you. Why don’t you just, you know, work there for a while and then come and tell us what happened? And he says, “Because I’ve seen you take so much crap, over the past six months about this. I’m telling you its real, I saw it, I touched it.”

J: I’m looking at him, saying, “What, what, what?” He said, “John, you will never know what it’s like to see your first alien.” I said, “You saw one, you saw one?” “Yup”. I said, “It couldn’t have been a doll? It couldn’t a been...” “No! It was one”.
And, you know, these days you ask him that question he says, “Well, I don’t know, coulda been a doll. They were doing all this weird stuff.” But that night, that’s exactly what he said.

J: You know the deal, the way security like that works, is, when they give you a clearance and when you’re deep inside like that, they tell you: “Look, John, we’ve given you this clearance and, of course, we expect you to keep it secret. But we know every once in a while, you may accidentally mention something at a party. You may have had too much to drink - and you think it would be interesting to talk about this - and we just want you to know that, you know, we don’t really care. We won’t hurt you. But, we will kill your wife, your children, your mom, your dad, your parakeet, your dog...”

Start of interview

Kerry Cassidy: Hi, I’m Kerry Cassidy and this is Project Camelot and we're very happy to be returning to see John Lear, and do a retake and a new interview, to get...he’s going to tell all, basically. Is that right, John?

John Lear: Yeah.

K: You’re going to absolutely charm us and, and dazzle us with new information.

J: I’m going to tell what I know up to this point.

K: Okay.

J: And I’m not saying it’s absolutely ironclad - what’s really going on - but it’s what I think is going on.

K: Great.

J: But I’d first like to say...I can’t believe it’s been two years since we did this - it seems like only about six months. But first of all, let’s talk about what happened at ATS. What do you know about it?

K: Okay, I know you, you’ve been banned. That’s the extent of it, and we don’t actually know why. What we know about it is that, or what we think we know is that it’s a CIA front and managed by the CIA, so if you’ve been banned, it might be that you’re getting too hot.

J: That’s what I think, and when I first joined ATS, maybe three years ago, I thought, you know what, this is just a collection point for what people think is going on. So that THEY KNOW what the general public thinks is going on and they have a bunch of debunkers there that are, you know, paid to go in there and somebody talks about something and they say “oh, no, no, here’s what really going on.” You know...

K: Right...

J: they generally just influence public thought. But then, I started to throw some, you know, interesting stuff in there and they didn’t say anything, so I thought, well maybe it’s ok.

K: [Chuckles]

J: So, starting about four months ago, I started throwing some really secret stuff in there, which I’ll tell you later, and it has to do with Navy submarines. It has to do with what the space shuttles do and then, pretty soon, you know, I’m gone. And the mechanics of exactly why I’m gone is Jeff Ritzmann and David Biedne, were two of the main Meier debunkers. Now, the Meier story is true. There’s no doubt about it.

K: Oh yeah, absolutely.

J: He took pictures, he went on rides. I don’t care whether you say that, you know, “There were pictures of dinosaurs,” or “The lady came out of Sears Magazine.” That’s all contamination. The fact is, it was true. And so, I really don’t have time to support the Meier thing, other than, in the thread, I would come up every once in a while and say, “Hey look, you know, I’m busy with other things. If I had time, you know, I’d tell you exactly how the Meier thing happened and why I believe it, but all I want to tell you is: the Meier case is true and John Lear believes it’s true, and that’s the bottom line there”.

And I’m telling you, I would get hit SO hard on ATS... pages and pages of people knocking me, particularly Jeff Ritzmann and David Biedne. So one day, I got a list of everything, all the insults they made of me, and there were sixteen of them. And I put them, you know, at the end; I said, “You know it’s funny that any other thread, people would be taken to task for insulting another person. But apparently, on the Billy Meier thread it’s okay to insult John Lear.” And I put these sixteen things.

Well that was on a Sunday evening. Monday morning I wake up, go to log on, and here’s Skeptic Overlord... what’s his name, Bill...

Bill Ryan: Bill Irvine?

J: Bill Irvine.

B: Mark Allen is the other one.

J: Says, you know, we’ve post-banned you here until you can prove that what you said that Ritzmann and Biedne posted, was true. We’ve had our best moderators and they can’t find a single quote that was true. So all we need is your help. And I’m thinking, “Holy smokes, I just, you know, got all that, copied all that yesterday”. So, I started to worry, because it never even occurred to me to go back and check to see if it was still there.

K: Wow.

J: I just assumed, if Bill Irvine said it wasn’t there, and his moderators said it wasn’t there, then it wasn’t there. And so, what I thought was one of the moderators was in on it and it’s gone. And the only hope I have of recovering it, is going into the archives.

So that was like about eight in the morning, and the whole day long, here’s Bill Irvine coming back, every two hours, “John, you know, we can’t find any of this. We need your help.” You know, with a few little minor digs in it.

So I’m waiting for Ron Schmidt to get off work at six, so he can show me how to go into the archives. So, finally, just before I went over to Ron Schmidt’s that Monday about five o’clock I said, “You know, I’m just going to take a look and be SURE that it’s not there” and I found every single quote still there. So I laboriously took the time to copy every one, and paste it on this one piece of paper exactly where it was, send it to Bill Irvine, and he sends me back an e-mail says: “Jeff admitted it, it’s a done deal.”

K: So, in other words, the moderators were kind of like in collusion with this guy, Jeff....

J: No, no... it turns out that none of them were colluding.

K: They didn’t know?

J: It turns out that everything was still there. But Irvine said all his guys couldn’t find those quotes.

K: But, but that’s what I’m saying. If they couldn’t find the quotes, then they suddenly found them, then in a certain sense it sounds like they’re working with Jeff.

J: That could be. Anyway, Bill said, “If we all agree to keep this between us.” I said, “No, I don’t agree to keep that between us. I want everyone to know EXACTLY what happened here. You know, you say this is Above Top Secret and we’re trying to get all this information. Why should this little feud, in which you’ve caused me an entire day of grief, and really...”

I told Bill, I said, “I’ve been posting here for two years. I spend eight to sixteen hours answering questions on ATS. And you accuse me of falsifying information? I mean that’s INSANE”. So I wouldn’t agree not to shut up and they, they didn’t let me on so....

K: So it sounds like they’re playing games.

J: Yes. So they had a lot of people ask about John Lear, and finally on Sunday, the following Sunday, they let me on just long enough I could get in my two cents worth and then I was banned forever.

It was obvious that ATS has been a clearing house. They wanted the information that the public got, to see if they could influence that. They weren’t interested in having good stuff come out there...

K: Right.

J: ...that the public could say. And I’m telling ya, I was telling some good stuff and I was getting away with it! And it was, really...

K: Well, let’s get that good stuff on here today.

J: was really surprising.

K: And we’ll get around that.

J: They were letting me get away with this stuff. And ah, because, you know, I know what’s going on. And so then it rapidly came to a halt. So now we’ve talked to several people at ATS and they said “nobody gets to put anymore good stuff on, you know, it’s got to be backed up a hundred percent or they’re banned and their post is deleted”.

J: I think the crowning blow is when they rolled in Jim Oberg. And Jim Oberg has been NASA’s front man, you know, for thirty years. He knows everything about everything and, when we got into a debate on the neutral point - which I’ll discuss later - which absolutely proves that there’s 64% gravity on the moon. I got Jim Oberg and I’ll read you the exact thing he came back with. You know, he was stuck. There was nothing more for him to say. He was done for and that’s when things started to go downhill, and I’ll read you the exact thing Jim Oberg said.

K: So John, what’s going to be your approach at this point that you’re banned? Because, in a way, that was the kind of a place where you could connect with the public. Are you going to join another...

J: I post on four little forums, and anybody that calls and asks, I give them these forums. And it’s no big deal, there’s like 300 on one and 80 on another. And my bag is not reaching a lot of people; it’s reaching the very few that are interested in what’s going on. And that’s not a threat to the government, really. I don’t think.

K: [Laughs] Okay, well, there are plenty people that visit forums that don’t log on. So, so it’s good news to know that you’re actually still out there and still posting.

J: Yeah, the stuff that we’re going to talk about today is the stuff that’s current on these forums. One is Open Minds; and the other is American Conspiracy; the other is Fantastic Forum; and I think there’s one other. And then I have a website with Ron Schmidt that’s called and I try and keep all the stuff that we find out on there.

K: Okay.

B: is an excellent website. I want to say this for the record. There are not that many websites that we at Project Camelot would be willing to recommend, but that’s a good one.

J: Okay, let me...

B: A very, very good one.

J: ...tell you about the origin of was. When I posted the original HUGE megabyte pictures of the moon on ATS; in other words, I sent them by DVD to... what’s his name there?

B: Bill? Mark?

J: No, the other one, Mark, and he posted them. For the first week people were saying, “Well I don’t see anything, you know, John, and I don’t see what you see there, you know, and everything.” And then this guy called Zorgon started to see the stuff. And so I would lead him to it and I didn’t lead him anywhere, you know. I didn’t say, “Well here it is” - because you can’t do that. You got to let them find it. And Zorgon started coming up with the stuff. And THEN, he started finding more than I did and I said, you know, we got to meet and I’m thinking “Holy shit, this guy lives in New Jersey, you know, and I’m going to have to get back there”. It turns out, you know, he lives a couple miles down the street!

K: Oh my God, that’s great...

J: [Laughing.] So he comes up here, you know, we start trading information. And he already had a website, you know, having to do with medieval stuff, so we just made a part of that. And the information just started to come in from all kinds of sources.

K: Right, yeah.

J: Sources, I had no idea how they got the stuff.

B: Yeah, yeah.

J: But a lot of stuff on the Russian black ships, and it just keeps pouring in...

B: It’s a good site. It’s a good site.

J: 10% of the stuff is posted on there just because we don’t have the time, you know, we’d like to have a secretary, but both of us are broke you know, so we don’t have, you know, we can’t put it ALL on there. So we put the most interesting stuff on there, and Ron works down at the convention center. He’s the guy that sets things up and takes things down. But he comes....

K: Well, that’s fabulous!

J: ...he comes home and every once in awhile we get together, you know, like once a week, and talk about what we’re going to focus on but that’s, that’s it.

B: Let me share this e-mail with you, John. This is from somebody called Gary Dix, who used to work very closely with Simon, Mark and Bill. In the early days of ATS and, after a major disagreement, he quit. He’s based in New Zealand. And he sent me a long e-mail.

J: And the date?

B: A couple of years ago.

J: Yeah.

B: And I’ll just read one of the pertinent paragraphs: “As they become more negative over a topic, they begin to drive the threads using sockpuppets, fake member names, as they don’t want to be seen to be guiding directions in the threads as mods and admin. This is the STYLE of mods and admin in the future - using fake accounts to allow them to freely post their ideas.”

We got this on record from a guy on the inside, okay? Now, of course, they’ll deny it. But if you’ve got someone whose user name is “Skeptic Overlord”, what does that tell us?

J: Yeah.

B: You know, I mean, the truth is in plain sight. ATS is a skeptical site. ATS is a debunker’s site and so what do you debunkers do? It’s this phrase, which you know: you keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

J: Yeah.

B: So you’re an enemy of anyone who wants the truth really out. So they bring you in really close with the intention of controlling public opinion about you.

J: Right.

B: It nearly worked, but not quite.

J: [Laughs]

B: Because they made the mistake of calling John Lear a liar. And John Lear may be all kinds of things but John Lear’s not a liar, and everybody knows that, who knows anything about John Lear.

J: But what are the chances of, you know, me posting those pictures on ATS, you know, and the ONE GUY who starts seeing the good stuff, lives, you know, 3 or 4 miles down the road. I mean it’s really, really great.

K: It’s freaky.

J: But that’s how synchronicity works.

K: Absolutely.

J: And, and every DAY, I see an example of synchronicity.

K: Well, that means you’re really plugged in to what’s going on here, and that you’re getting some unseen help, basically. I mean synchronicity is just being in synch with the universe in a major way...

J: Right.

K: ...and everything is going in that direction – basically, the direction of disclosure and truth. So, on that note, let’s kind of dive in here. We know you’ve got a lot of stuff to cover today, so where would you like to go first?

J: First we’re going to cover the Nibiru scam, Planet X.

K: Okay.

J: It is not there. It is not going to cause a problem in 2012. It’s a scam. I see it working from every different direction. It’s just a PLOT to keep us, you know, in a state of anxiety. Everything’s going to go along just as normal. The world isn’t going to disintegrate. There’s going to be no planet that comes and shakes everything up. Everything’s going to go along just fine.

K: Ok, are you saying this in general about 2012?

J: Yes.

K: Or are you saying this...

J: Specifically about Planet X....

K: Planet X...

J: ...or Nibiru, or whatever you want to call it, AND 2012. 2012 is like...

K: It’s just a year.

J: Is what?

K: Is it just a year, in your opinion?

J: Yeah, it’s just like, what did we call this... Y2K? You know, we all got to get generators and food and everything, and everything was going to collapse. The same thing with 2012. It’s just going to be a year like every other year. We’re going to have, to continue to have these wars. We will probably have a nuclear war, you know, but things are just, you know, going to go along fine. There’s going to be no absolutely...

K: Where do you get your information? Are you just coming to this conclusion in your own head by putting two and two together, or do you have an inside source that’s telling you stuff?

J: No inside scoop. I have never had an inside scoop. Most all of my information, you know, I’ve come out with it myself and its more fun like that. Because people say “Where do you... who told you that gravity on the moon was 64% and there’s an atmosphere”? Well, there’s a lot of books out there but, basically, I’m the guy that came out and said “Yup, there’s gravity on the moon and there’s an atmosphere on the moon”. As far as...

K: Well, why, why should we believe that you would know this? I mean is it because you were a pilot, because you’re trained in a certain way? Where is your trail coming from?

J: Well, as far as the gravity on the moon, we’re going to talk about Bullialdus-Newton law of inverse-square. And we’re going to talk about how usually NASA convinces you, using Newton’s gravitational law, which assumes the mass of the earth and the moon - that’s not what you want to use. You want to use Newton-Bullialdus or Bullialdus-Newton law of inverse-square, because you don’t have to CARE what the mass is. All you need to know is what the distance is, and where the neutral point is. If we know where the neutral point is and the size of the planets, we can figure out what the gravity is.

Now, we know what the neutral point is because: 1) Wernher von Braun told us; 2) the crew of Apollo 17 told us; and 3) one of the other Apollo missions told us. And it’s about 38,000 or 39,000 miles and, if you work out the law of inverse-square, it comes out to be that the moon is 64% gravity of the Earth. That’s all there is to it. And you don’t have to assume mass.

And as far as Planet X and Nibiru, that’s based on 65 years of listening to bullshit, you know, about what’s coming on and what disaster’s coming next. It’s just you know, I know that there’s nothing going to be happening.

K: Okay, let me ask you because we have several witnesses that are giving us evidence...

J: I know you do, I know you do and that’s why...

K: ...also some secret evidence in this regard now, were certainly in question about this. We’ve not reached a conclusion ourselves. However, first of all, there’s the South Pole Telescope. There’s also the interest of the Vatican and the Jesuit footage that came out, you know, with [Cristoforo] Barbato. Maybe you’ve seen the footage, maybe you haven’t. Maybe you can give us some background on why you think that footage is not accurate, or not real. And then there’s also the heating of the planets. How do you account for the heating of the planets and the activity on the sun, which is going to reach a peak in 2012 as being meaningless?

J: Are you talking about global warming?

K: But it’s not global, and David Wilcock and Richard Hoagland have gone through planet by planet, and shown you how there’s increased activity all the way down, and there’s actually heating up.

B: There’s information in the public domain that every planet in the solar system is heating up. It seems to be connected with solar cycle 24. And then some people say that there’s something else that’s driving this.

J: I wouldn’t even pay any attention to it.

K: [Laughs]

J: Everybody gets to believe what they want. In 2012 you could look back and say John Lear, on April 2nd 2008 said it was all bullshit, and if it wasn’t, you know, I was wrong, but I think it’s a total scam.

K: I’m sure you’ve rubbed shoulders with the Intel community. You know that your office is bugged - you’ve demonstrated that to us. There’s a reason why they bug you. I mean, first of all, you know, you’re a pilot from way back, you’re incredibly respected, you have a background military, slightly, you know. And I even have a hunch you might have been part of MJ-12 at one point.

J: [Laughs]

K: [Laughs] Okay, so you’ve known all the insiders. You know... tell me why it is that you’re saying you have no inside sources suddenly. I mean, you know, Bob Lazar...

J: Let me correct that. Let me correct that. I had three inside sources. One was Jimmy Doolittle - and he’s the one that told my Mom MJ-12 existed. That story is important because, when I was first getting into all this in 1987, and Shandera and Moore came out with the supposed Eisenhower briefing, and it talked about Majestic 12. I needed to know, is this true? And the only person that I knew that would have known beyond a shadow of a doubt, was Jimmy Doolittle.

K: Okay, who’s Jimmy Doolittle?

J: General Jimmy Doolittle, that’s him behind you taking off to bomb Tokyo. Taking off from the Hornet, incidentally, the same aircraft carrier that picked up Apollo. And that letter that you see is when I had my accidental airplane crash in Geneva, Switzerland, in 1961 and nearly killed myself. He was the only one to take the time to write me a letter and say, “John, we all make mistakes, I’ve made many, plenty of them, but it’s important that we profit, it’s only important that we profit by our mistakes”. And he took the time to write that whole letter so, I have it framed with him taking off on the Hornet to bomb Tokyo.

General Jimmy Doolittle was an incredible General - very respected, and he was involved with MJ-12 up to his ears. He was NOT a part of MJ-12, but he was around our house in Santa Monica, 222 14th Street. He lived down on Third Street with his wife, Josephine, and they were in our house JUST LIKE Vandenberg, just like Twining - all those MJ-12 guys were around our house. But, you know, I didn’t know that at that time and my father never said much about UFOs other than that he believed them.

And I never found out any other stuff until like I got into this stuff in 1985, ‘86 and Doolittle’s name kept coming up, time after time after time. Now, I knew him and I have... there’s autographed pictures all around this den of Jimmy that I’d asked for. And I saw him at various... like SETP, which is Society of Experimental Test Pilots, and to say hello and everything, but I didn’t really know him that well.

But I knew that my Mom knew him and she was as close to Jimmy Doolittle as anybody in her life, Jimmy and Jo. Now, his wife passed away in the 1980s sometime and he was retired, lived in Carmel, California, and I KNEW that. And I also knew that my Mom talked to him every once in a while.

So I knew that the only way I would have of determining whether Majestic 12 was true was to get her to ask him. And it took about six months to get it together, because she’s always hesitant, you know, to do stuff like that. But I finally got her to do it.

And she called up and she said, “Jimmy, how’re you doing and dadadada, and by the way, John’s interested in this stuff, and I just want to know, was Majestic 12 real”? And he said “Yes, Moya, but I can’t say anything about it”. That for me was, you know, the beginning of everything - because, if Majestic 12 is real, it’s a possibility the briefing papers are real and, if they were real, then everything else was real.

K: Right, because why would you put together something like MJ-12 under Truman, to investigate or manage the UFO story unless there was, you know, if there was no UFO story, right? There’s got to be a UFO if you’re going to put together a group.

J: Right. I’d have to say that was my first impression.

K: So now tell me something. You must know the history to some degree. I mean you’ve been around a long time, you’ve seen them in operation. You know, you know, you must have MET some of the insiders and I have to say that I think they would have recruited you. Am I wrong?

J: No, I...

K: You never got an offer?

J: No. I just, you know, I was a pilot. I didn’t know ANYTHING, you know, until 1984 when I, somebody...

K: But you know a lot now.

J: Yeah.

K: Look at this office, it’s incredible.

J: Yeah. You know, up till 1984, my sole interest was SR-71, F-19, Stealth Fighter...

K: Okay.

J: ...stuff like that. As a matter of fact, you can go on the internet: John Andrews, who was Vice President of Testors, and eventually made the ‘Sport Model’.

K: Right.

J: You know he and I had letters going back and forth. He’d say, “Hey, you ought to look into this flying saucer deal.” And I’d say, “No, its bullshit, you know I don’t need to waste my time”. That letter’s on the Internet. You know my interest didn’t start till in 1985, I think. We had a... I used to run the reunion for all the Southeast Asia pilots that, you know, that worked for CIA and I’d run the reunion here in Las Vegas, called “China Post 1”.

And we’d have it every two years and ONE of these years, and I think it was 1985, a friend of mine, whose name was Greg Wilson, he was a Raven. The Raven were the Air Force guys they’d take out of the Air Force, sheep dip them, to give them civilian ID. They’d come into Laos and they’d fly, you know, the 01s and they were the Ravens and they’d go out on the PDJ and all around and do all kinds of amazing things. Anyway, he attended the reunion. His name is Greg Wilson and he got talking to him, “Hey, where-all ya been”? And he said, “Well, you know, here and there, still flying A-10s. I spent a tour at Bentwaters”. I said, “Bentwaters”?

K: [Chuckles]

J: “That was the place, supposedly, in 1980, that the flying saucer landed”. He says, “No John, not supposedly - it did”. He said, “I didn’t get to see it because I was confined to quarters, but I know the guys who did”. I said, “What”? I said, “You’re telling me this stuff is real”? He said, “Oh, yeah”.

So here’s a guy that I flew with in Southeast Asia, hadn’t seen for years, I give him this outrageous question about Bentwaters. He says, “Yeah, yeah, I was confined. I didn’t see it, but I know the guys who did”. So that’s what piqued my interest and that’s 1985, you know? So, you know...

K: So, you’ve got more. You’ve got insiders coming to you, you’ve got insiders that are friends.

J: I wouldn’t say he was an insider; an insider like is Bob Lazar...

K: Right.

J: ...and the only other insider, the real insider, I mean the guy, and it’s been like, you know, if you guys were here two years ago, that’s probably been like five or six years ago. I can’t remember when I met. Oh, I know when it was, yeah, it’s been a long time ago. It’s been almost twenty years, Used to live up in Idaho. He was retired. He told friends of mine a lot more than he told me, but, just before he died, he came down to Vegas and more or less said, what do you want to know? And I didn’t even know what to ask!

K: And his name is?

J: Ah...

K: Are you at liberty to tell us?

J: No. Because, you know, the deal. The way security like that works is, when they give you a clearance and when you’re deep inside like that, they tell you “Look, John, we’ve given you this clearance and, of course, we expect you to keep it secret. But we know every once in a while, you may accidentally mention something at a party; you may have had too much to drink; and you think it would be interesting to talk about this, and we just want you to know that we don’t really care. We won’t hurt you. But we will kill your wife, your children, your mom, your dad, your parakeet, your dog, you know, everybody else, but you’ll be okay”.

So that’s why people don’t talk. And then people say, “He’s on his deathbed, why wouldn’t he talk”? That’s why. It’s because they make it clear - not him that’s going to get hurt, it’s every person in his family and then starting with his best friend.

Towards the end of his life, I saw him three times. I drove to Idaho to see him twice and once back here and, when I was in Idaho, he didn’t tell me all that much, but he did tell me one interesting thing that NEVER made sense - until THIS year when I find out. The information I’m getting is just growing exponentially. Every time I get someplace, you know, and then I’m led to someplace else and it just... so much information coming in.

Anyway, what he told me was that he worked on a project, a mining machine for the moon, and this thing was being built in the South somewhere. He didn’t tell me where, but I was imagining Arkansas or Alabama, someplace like that.

He said, “John, this thing was so big”, he said, “that when I finished it”, he said, “I have a private license. I rented an airplane just to go up and fly around to see how mammoth this thing was”. And I said, “Well, can you give me an idea”? He says, “Acres”. I said “Wow”! I said, “How’d they get it to the moon”? And, he said “I don’t know”. [laughs]

And that’s how projects like that work. He doesn’t have a need to know how they got it to the moon, his job was to build it, you know, and they’re not going to TELL him any of that. That’s how compartmentalization works. You know, that’s one...

B: We’ve been told by somebody, he told us that Project Lunex and Horizon were never canceled and just went black.

J: Absolutely, and Project Horizon is on our website, right?

B: Yes.

J: Yeah. The only thing we had. There’s, we got four of the phases of Project Horizon, except one. I think its number two that we need. So I’ll show you that, and show you what we’re still looking for.

K: Can you just tell me one thing? Have YOU been threatened?

J: Never, never the slightest bit.

K: Okay, alright. Well, so, either you’ve never crossed the line, you’ve never revealed anything that you weren’t supposed to, or you don’t know enough. Is that right?

B: Or you’re doing someone a favor.

J: OR, somebody’s protecting me.

K: Okay, so the last...

J: But you are exactly right, either I’m talking through my hat and I don’t have the REAL information...

K: Or...

J: ...or somebody’s protecting me.

K: Do you know who?

J: Oh, I didn’t say which one was true.

K: I understand.

J: I mean, you know, I think a lot of this stuff is true, but how would I know? I’ve never been to the moon. I’d like to go.

K: Uh huh.

J: If I go and somebody can arrange a ride... like Bob Lazar, he says he’s going to have his space suit on while we’re standing in the air lock there. And when it comes up like that he says, you know, “at least I’m going to have some air and I’ll watch you suffocate”. And I said no, no, I’ll be able to breathe normally. Now, when people go to the moon, it takes them two weeks of decompression before they can actually go out and spend some time there.

The fact is you can go right there and breathe but, you know, you’ll get altitude sickness. Just like if you go to climb Everest, you can go right up there, you’ll probably live but, you know, you’ll hurt pretty bad. That’s why they go to the different camps as they go up, is to get acclimatized and the same thing to the moon. It takes about two weeks.

K: Okay. So tell us how the moon got where it is, because, you know that the moon is a satellite, that’s actually a fake...

J: Right. It was. It’s a spaceship that was towed into orbit. I would say thirty to forty thousand years ago. Now the reason I say thirty to forty thousand years ago, is because it’s still within the history of man.

[Immanuel] Velikovsky talks about the different proselynes and the different civilizations, that talked about the time when there was NO moon and then, when there were two moons and now we have one moon. This guy here, Norm Bergrun wrote the The Ringmakers of Saturn. It’s an EXCELLENT book. Norm Bergrun is VERY qualified; was for forty years a scientific part of both NACA and also Lockheed; retired from Lockheed, I think, about fifteen years ago. No more than that...

K: What’s NACA?

J: Ah, National Aeronautics, the predecessor to NASA.

K: Oh, really.

J: National Advisory Commission for Aeronautics.

K: I see, okay.

J: They were the predecessor to NASA.

K: Okay.

J: But when he retired, he somehow got some photos, some really good negatives of Voyager, which went by Saturn. And he set up a little lab in his house, and he started looking these and he ended up writing Ringmakers of Saturn. And what he shows you here is what he found in the rings of Saturn: three vehicles - space ships - the biggest of which is 31,196 miles long and 2,422 miles in diameter.

We’re talking about a fairly large spaceship there. Now Norm Bergrun, when he wrote this book at the beginning - it’s very good - he says “Now look, I’m going to be talking about some stuff that is very interesting, but you can’t skip a page, you can’t skip a word that you don’t know; you have to go from the beginning to end or you won’t understand what I’m saying.” And I did go from beginning to end. Now since...

K: Okay, but when was this written?

J: Ah, this would be 1986.

K: Ok, so it’s not that old.

J: No and I go see Norm...

K: And it’s talking about a huge spaceship. Who built the spaceship?

J: Who builds them?

K: Yeah.

J: We don’t know who builds them. But anyway...

K: Us?

J: No, no. We couldn’t build anything like that. We have some amazing stuff, but, we couldn’t do that.

K: Okay.

J: No, this is somebody else. But what the interesting part in the book and the reason why we’re getting here is because, at the end of this book, he starts talking about the moon and how the moon was towed into orbit. Because the people that towed, that, that operate that stuff and Saturn and also Iapetus, towed the moon into orbit - and he goes into here, explains exactly why he believes the moon WAS towed into orbit, and how it was and how they grabbed on to the Mare Orienel.

K: Who are you saying towed the moon into...

J: We don’t know. Whoever.

K: ...into place. So he doesn’t conjecture on who...

J: No.

K: know, on what alien race, for example.

J: No.

K: I mean obviously, it’s an alien race. Henry Deacon, our secret source, has also substantiated that. The moon was towed into orbit... but have you got an idea what alien race was responsible for that?

J: No, absolutely not.

K: None?

J: What’s interesting here, another interesting thing, I see Norm every year because when I go do the UFO Expo West, which is the only one I do. He lives in Los Altos Hills. And he’s writing about Iapetus, and Iapetus is probably a spaceship too.

K: Okay.

K: So we’ve got to get in touch with this guy.

J: You better, because he’s on his way out. I saw him last September, he was not well, he was finishing up the book on Iapetus. But he wasn’t working on it every day...

K: Okay, was he a scientist?

J: Yes.

K: Okay, but did he, who did he work for? I mean, in other words, he’s government...

J: Give me a second here.

K: He’s in NACA, I understand that, but in a certain level, he’s revealing secret information.

J: No. As what?

K: Well, I’m just asking you. Isn’t this, wouldn’t this be secret?

J: No. No.
Thermodynamicist, Douglas Aircraft 1934-44
Aero Research Scientist, NACA/Ames Laboratory 1944-1956
Lockheed Missile and Space Company, Van Uys, Supervisor Flight Test 1956-68
Manager, Flight Test Analysis, 1958-1962
Manager Test Plans and Direction 1962-63
Manager Re-entry Test Operations, 1966...

K: Okay, but...

J: There’s all this stuff, how qualified this guy is...

K: Right.

J: This is...

K: Why are they letting him talk?

J: Why?

K: Why are they letting him do this? I mean, in other words.

J: What’s he saying? There’s a space ship that’s, that’s 31 miles long in the rings of Saturn?

K: So plausible deniability is....

J: Sure, who’s going to believe that?

K: Okay, okay, alright. So that’s...

J: So anyway, two years ago, at the UFO Expo West, I mean, that was SO interesting because number one, one of my lectures of Apollo 1, and the four people that were in it and there was Grissom, White and Chaffey and then there was a fourth guy - and he was part of the secret astronaut corps.

And the REASON that had to keep it secret is because if they, if the public were allowed to know there was a fourth guy in there, then they would not, want to know who he was. And there was no possible way that NASA could ever reveal that there was another guy in there, ‘cause they would have to reveal the secret space program. And the secret space program started in 1959 and they’re the ones who went to the moon in 1962. They went to Mars in 1966. All, everything we know is a cover for the secret space program.

K: Oh, yeah.

J: Anyway, when, when I give a lecture, if I have two hours, I always give an hour, and then let the public talk to me for an hour, because I’m going to learn more from then than they are going to from me. And one of Chaffey’s relatives got up and said, “John, you’re right, we’ve always known this, there was a fourth man, but we didn’t know who it was.” Now, I know who the name is, but I keep it to myself because...

J: Oh, right.

J: ...if somebody comes to me, you know and says, “I know who it is”. I know who it is. And it’s really interesting because his son is a current shuttle astronaut.

K: Oh, really.

J: Yeah. So anyway, I go to see Norm two years ago, and in talking with him I said: “By the way, the electromagnetic vehicle that towed the moon into orbit, where is it now”? And he said, “I think it’s on the back side of the moon”.

So when I got hooked up with Ron Schmidt, we started collecting photos on the back side of the moon and we found it. It’s in the crater Tsiolkovsky. And the story of how we did it was so interesting and how NASA covered it up. There’s like six different photos of Tsiolkovsky, as they tried to airbrush this electromagnetic vehicle out if the picture by making it an island.

And ah, but we got them. And we got two really good photos. One was discovered by a lady who works for us in Florida, and she discovered it on a thumbnail of Tsiolkovsky. And what happened, was when NASA was advertising this particular photo, you know, they airbrushed the big one, but, when they had the thumbnail, somebody looked at that and said, “Hey, I’m not going to take the time to enlarge that, take the vehicle out and put it down - nobody’ll notice it anyway.”

But we noticed it, and it’s great, and that’s where we got the photo of the EMV on the far side. And then, Apollo 15 flew over it, and they got some movies of it, and it’s just a quick shot but it’s really interesting.

K: The secret astronaut who was killed, his son is a shuttle astronaut.

J: Right.

K: Okay, and this is interesting because it sort of shows how they bring someone into the fold who might have something to tell the world at a later date.

J: Right.

K: But if he’s a shuttle astronaut, he’s not going to talk.

J: Right.

K: Right, he’s in the fold.

J: Right. Same thing with Grissom’s son.

K: Oh, really.

J: He’s in the program.

K: See this would be an interesting investigative angle, would be, what about all the sons and daughters of the astronauts? Do they all work for the company?

J: Yeah, it would be. Now Gus Grissom - when the fire started, you know, every single story you read will say that there were like three words were spoken. Chaffey said, “Fire!” Somebody said “It’s getting hot in here”, but in every single story, Grissom doesn’t say anything.

Now, as you know, Grissom was the most highly critical and vociferous astronaut in that program. He came out before they were supposed to go up, he said, “There are sixty major things with this wrong - how can we possibly be flying this”? He’s the one that hung the lemon over the Apollo.

And NASA hated him. Now I’ve been told by guys I consider insiders - and there’s another one, call him Number Four - that NASA didn’t specifically kill those guys, but they let it happen. They knew it was going to happen and they just let it happen.

K: But why?

J: Well, there were a number of reasons: 1) They needed more time. They needed to get the program back on schedule and the only way they could do that was to have a horrendous accident. And, they wanted to get rid of Grissom. And so the New York Times - and I forget the guy - broke the story the next day was that he talked to NASA, and they said that the tape was gruesome of the last few minutes. And of course we’ve all heard that Grissom didn’t say anything. We all know what he said. He was saying, you know, “You bastards, you’ve...

K: Oh my God.

J: ...YOU’VE KILLED US ALL. I KNEW THIS WAS COMING TO THIS. I HOPE YOU ALL WATCH US DIE.” And just, really bad. So I’m sure that’s what happened and I saw another quote just yesterday and I can’t remember what it was, about how gruesome the tape was.

K: Wow.

B: We’d like to ask you if Clark McClelland has got something to say about this as well.

J: Yeah.

B: We’re in touch with Clark, but we haven’t met him.

J: Clark’s a great guy. I’ve known him since 1990. We’ve never met, but we’ve always talked on the phone. I’ve always tried to get his notes. He has his book ready. He has three books. He doesn’t want to publish one of them - he wants to publish all three. I don’t blame him. He knows a lot of stuff. He knows much more than I’m telling you.

K: Do you think that he’s actually going to get his books published - are they going to let them out there?

J: No way! Not a chance in hell.

K: [Laughs] Okay.

J: The only thing... I’d like to get them, but, you know, Clark is so pissed and I don’t know what happened, but I know he is THE insider, the insider of NASA. There’s nobody in the position that could come out and say more than Clark. I mean, he was there from the beginning.

K: Okay.

B: They’ve done just about everything but kill him, haven’t they? He hasn’t got a penny.

J: Right. And I don’t know why they haven’t killed him.

K: Oh right. Yeah, absolutely.

J: Anyway, one more thing I’m going to tell you about Norm, because we’re going to get into it later. I told Norm the last time, this is last year I went to the UFO Expo and boy, I’ll tell ya, I got some good information. But anyway, I went to see Norm and he’s not well and he’s had several surgeries and I expect to hear any day that he’s passed away. He’s 87, and I said, “Norm, I’m thinking that the airplanes that crashed into the World Trade Center were holograms”. And he said, “John, you’re probably right, and here’s why.”

He said, “Just before I retired I was driving down on the Bay Shore Freeway to Sunnyvale”. and he said, “I had a friend in the right seat of the car”. And he says, “Like, it was about 8 o’clock in the morning, maybe 8:15”. He said, “we’re driving south and we saw this shadow and we looked up, and here...” he says, “It wasn’t a 747, but it was a HUGE four-engined airplane, it wasn’t 200 feet above us”. And he said, “We looked out at, looked at this thing” he said “of course we’re, you know, 20 miles from San Jose, you know, and 30 miles from San Francisco. There’s no possible way an airplane could, you know, legitimately be flying right there”.

K: [Laughs]

J: And he says, “We watched it for about 10 seconds and it went [snaps fingers] just like you turned a light bulb out”. And he said, “So if that was the contemporary hologram, presentation of a hologram” he says, “then you’re right”. And a...

K: Oh, that’s very interesting.

J: ...holograph, the holographic technology is so far advanced that people just wouldn’t believe it. But the other day, I had a lady that was helping Marilee on a casting program. Actually, she hired Marilee. She’s from New York. She had two degrees from Harvard. She was just a wonderful, smart, receptive lady, and we were talking about holographs and she says, “Well let me tell you”, she said “About five years ago, I was invited with about fifteen other television executives into a private showing in Hollywood.

And there was a little auditorium, it wasn’t very big. It could seat like, maybe, thirty people and the presentation was called, ‘The Future of Television’ ”. And she said, “I don’t remember whether Steven Spielberg was there but everyone else was”. And she said it was “brightly lit and there was a stage and a podium on the stage and we’re sitting there, and this guy comes out from behind, and he’s a kind of East German accent, East European accent, white hair, has glasses, and he comes out, and he starts telling us the history of television and how they came up with the first cathode ray tube, and how they did this and how they... and he walks down in front of the stage, walks up one of the aisles, he’s polishing his glasses, walks in front in front of them, walks back up to the stage”. And she says, “It was pretty boring”. She says, “After about twenty minutes, he wraps it up with something ‘and that’s the history of television’ ”. And he puts his glasses on and, [snaps finger] just like a light, goes out”.

K: He disappeared? [Laughs] He was a hologram?

J: Yeah, and so...

K: Oh wow.

J: You know, that was seven years ago. So that’s what television is coming to is, you won’t have a screen...

K: Right.

J: You’ll just turn it on and it’ll be happening right there.

K: It’s right there. That’s great, well that makes sense because the Yellow Book...

J: So, the reason I tell you that story...

K: I mean they had the yellow book, right? From, what, the crash in 1947? So, and that’s substantiated by Dan Burisch over and over again. So that’s a, that’s a hologram. You know, technology, right?

J: So, the reason I tell you that is...

K: They back-engineered it.

J: ...on ATS, when I first went there, one of the things I talked about was that there were no planes on 911. There were no airplanes at Shanksville...

K: This is really dynamite stuff.

J: There was no airplane at the Pentagon, there was no airplane at the World Trade Center and I’m telling ya, when I started talking about holographs, the dissent, I mean the crush...

K: [Laughs]

J: ...of guys that were out to kill me, I mean, it was amazing, there was like twenty guys, “you’re nuts”, you know, “this is absolutely... you’re doing a disservice to the 911 movement”, you know, “to find out the truth” you know. You talk about that and nobody’s going to believe it, but the fact was, it was a holograph and it was CGI and...

K: Right, so can you take us through that? Take us through why you think that’s true. And how you got, I mean, you’re a pilot, you certainly have a vote in whether those planes had the capacity to hit those buildings, because our Henry Deacon has told us some very interesting things also about those planes. Actually, he thinks they were remote controlled. I don’t know if THAT’S true, but basically that planes don’t have the ability to actually steer in to buildings at that level, I mean, I’m not a pilot so I don’t understand the logistics. But, how did you come around to this?

J: Okay, first of all we’re going to talk about... Flight 11 and 77 didn’t exist in the beginning. The Bureau of Transportation Statistics has no record of them taking off, has no, you know, so let’s forget about them because they did not exist.

So now we’re just talking about [Flight] 175 and Flight 93. Flight 93 allegedly crashed in Shanksville. Anybody who has any background in accident investigation or any background at all, can’t possibly believe that an airplane crashed. There was no wreckage. It just simply could not happen.

K: Okay.

J: As far as 175 hitting the South Tower, I just recently put in a call to a Pan American Flight Simulator in Miami to see if I could rent a 767-200, which they have. And what I wanted to do was take six candidates, six candidate pilots. One current and qualified in the 767-200; one maybe qualified, but not current; and then one maybe current in a high speed jet, but not the 767; and then the last three, the same currency as the alleged hijackers, like a couple hours in an Apache, a private license, maybe a commercial, something like that.

And what I would do is in the simulator, you can take them up so that New York is just like it is. I mean the buildings are there. I would take them and freeze them in a position 20 miles out at 7,000 feet, at 560 mph, put them in the seat, say, and then give them two minutes of looking at the horizons, show them where the World Trade Center is, and say, “I’m about to release you and when I do, you’ll have a minute and fifty seconds to hit dead center. Now, the World Trade Center is 220 feet wide, you got to hit to the center. Not left or right, right - to the center.” And explain how it goes, and then I would have one camera pointing at the pilot and one camera pointing at what he’s looking at.

K: Alright.

J: And then say, [snaps fingers] “GO”. And say, “Okay now, show me how easy this is”. You know, ‘cause all the guys on ATS, “Oh, I did that in flight simulator, no problem”, you know. It’s, it’s impossible. At the height of my career, as proficient as I was in every kind of airplane, there’s no way I could have done that. I mean, it’s just too complex.

First of all, the airplane can’t fly above 560 pmh. It can’t fly more than 360, which is its Velocity Max Operating. Maybe could fly, maybe, thirty, forty miles an hour faster than that, but at VMO the clacker comes on. The clacker is an FAA required safety device which clacks LOUD: clack-clack-clack, clack-clack-clack. And it clacks at a rate and a cycle that irritates the pilot, so that he can’t ignore it. He has to slow down, you know. Now, there’s no possibility a hijacker, first time in the airplane, is not only going to, you know, fly it at 390, 400 mph...

K: [Laughs]

J: ...but do it with that clacker...

K: Right.

J: ...and descend and hit that thing center. Can’t happen. No.

B: I have a question here, if I may.

J: Yeah.

B: We have a credible witness, who says that the planes weren’t piloted, but they were remotely controlled, like unmanned vehicles from thousands of miles away.

K: I just said that.

B: And he said... Yes, but I’m asking John to comment on that, from the point of view of, this also answers the question raised by the fact that no human pilot could have hit that small target.

J: No airplane crashed in the World Trade Center. First of all, remote controlling an airplane that size or any size is very difficult. I don’t believe you could remote control an airplane the size of a 767-200 anyway, particularly to hit dead center of the World Trade Center. But the fact is, there was no wreckage from ANY airplane in the World Trade Center.

And by “no wreckage” I mean, nothing was found of any size anywhere around. Now, there was a panel of a fuselage that you see with five window shades, but when each airplane, American Airlines in the North Tower and United Airlines in the South Tower, hit, it was two-fifths of a second while they disappeared in the airplane. So, in two-fifths of a second you’re not going to have a panel about seven feet long drift down and just be lying there in almost perfect condition, unless it was accompanied by Mohammed Atta’s passport.

K: [Laughs]

J: The only other thing that was found was the engine on Murray Street. And, the engine on Murray Street has been identified as either a CFM-56 - CFM stands for Snecma - OR the CF-6, which was a 767 engine, which was developed out of the CFM-56. But whichever one it was the CF6 or the CFM56, it had to be General Electric and unfortunately, or fortunately, United Airlines used strictly Pratt and Whitney. So that engine you see flying off and that engine they say is from 175, isn’t from 175, because the guys, whose job was to dump it off there you know, and a smoking, smoldering thing, dumped off the wrong engine. There were a lot of things that the perps did that were suspect here. The collapse of building number seven is just absolutely ridiculous.

K: Right.

J: And the reason they had to do it that way is because, I suspect, the holographic projector, that projected flight 175 and flight 11, somehow became disabled - because Flight 93 was the one that was supposed to crash into building seven and when they couldn’t do it, they had to do things quickly. They could fake 93 crashing in Shanksville and I could imagine these guys, all day long, “What are we going to do?”

Nobody’s going to believe this thing just collapsed, you know, from a little fire, and about 5 o’clock, you know, they said well, let’s go ahead and do it, maybe no one will notice. So they collapsed this forty-seven story building into its footprint, and expect everybody to believe it - and of course they did.

K: Okay, so they collapsed it into its footprint... but what did they use? I mean, don’t they have scalar weaponry? Can’t they just hit it?

J: Yes, we do but, that particular thing was collapsed because it had controlled demolition just like the World Trade Center.

K: Right.

J: The World Trade Center, what they did with controlled demolition is the FIRST part was to make what we call the Wily Coyote Cutout in the face, like an airplane crashed in it, which is absolutely, insanely ridiculous - but a lot of people believed it. And then the other thing is they had to controlled demolitions to cut each girder to 30 feet, so it would fit on Rudy Giuliani’s trucks going out of town.

The World Trade Center was collapsed by a direct energy weapon, being operated from one of the outer space weapons platforms, and the reason we know is because of the size of the dust that was left of the concrete. It was approximately 80 microns, and that’s what a direct energy weapon collapses when it’s pointed down. That’s what it uses, it’s called “molecular disassociation”. I mean, it just disassociates the molecular structure of concrete and that’s why all that dust was there. There was just nothing left.

K: Nice one...

J: And that’s why the basement of the World Trade Center was molten for six weeks, is because, when it finally does hit the ground, it heats it up so much. You can pour as much water as you want, it’s not going to cool off for a time. So I believe all of this was controlled by the E-4B, the Doomsday airplane, the 747 that was seen flying over the White House.

I think there is the one that did the holographic projection, and they also transmitted the CGI, computer graphics, to the different TV channels, to show the airplanes allegedly crashing. That’s why we had the accidental nose out on one of the, on one of the buildings. They were the ones that sent the alleged cell phone messages, which never occurred. They did all kinds of stuff. They made probably transponder things for the different ATCs to phone.

K: So you’re saying the hologram had to come out of, had to be done by a plane in the air?

J: Yeah.

K: Really.

J: It was done by a projector. A holographic projector.

K: Oh, yeah. Okay, so, the technology exists out there. Have you, I mean, and I understand that you talked to your friend, who wrote the book...

J: Norm Bergrun.

K: Norm, but where else have you heard about this holographic technology?

J: Ron Blackburn... you know who he is?

K: No.

J: [To Bill] Do you know who he is?

B: No. I don’t.

J: Ron Blackburn was with Lockheed for 30 years. He was with the stealth program, stealth program project up at Groom Lake for 20 years. He was the one that I first heard there was aliens at the test site. Now, when I first met him 10, 15 years ago, he denied knowing everything, now he’s gotten a little bit more lax about what he says. I mean he said up at Groom Lake there was an administration building just for the aliens up there. Ron was at my birthday party here.

K: [Laughs] So we need to get to this guy as well.

J: He’s retired now, he’s retired. He’s very careful about what he says.

K: Okay.

J: He still has a retirement. But he came to my birthday party, and a he told us about holographic projections. He says they contain the sound, light, heat, everything, I mean everything is there. One of the people, one of the problems that people have with holographic projections... Well I saw it, it couldn’t have been. You know, like, they think of holographic projections like you see in Las Vegas or at a birthday party, you know.

K: Right.

J: Where it’s a little dancing light like there.

K: Where you can see through it.

J: Yeah, and they say...

K: And, so you know it’s there.

J: “Well, I saw it, couldn’t be”. You know it’s ridiculous. And then they say, “well, how would they have done the sound, they would have had to have speakers all up and down, you know, the street.” It’s too bad people, you know, they don’t really realize how far we are advanced with our technology. They were fooled, it was a scam. It was a psi-op.

K: Okay, so who ran it?

J: Basically I call them the “Nasty NASA Nazis”, in the middle of the military-industrial complex. Hoagland tells exactly who they are and how they took over, and that’s who ran it. Now, in March 31st, 2007, last year, a guy named Morgan Reynolds, if you’ve heard the name?

K: Yes.

J: Okay... he filed a suit called the Qui Tam Complaint, against these 22 companies. And we’re talking about major companies here. Science Applications, International Corporation, Applied Research, Hughes - all these companies right here are being sued, and what they’re being sued for is accepting money for providing a government agency with fraudulent information.

The government agency they provided with this fraudulent information is NIST - The National Institute of Standards in Technology. NIST was asked by President Bush to determine exactly why the World Trade Center collapsed. What actually caused it to collapse. And they came up with a reason that, you know, the jet fuel and it was just so far ridiculous, that Morgan filed this suit and it’s FORTY PAGES and he outlines everything that they got wrong. And so the suit has been going along in court now.

K: And you testified as to the holographic planes as part of the suit, right?

J: Well what I did is I filed an affidavit on January 28th, 2008, this year, in support of the Complaint and in opposition to the Motion To Dismiss. And basically, what I testified is: 1) why the airplanes couldn’t have traveled as fast as they did and HOW they couldn’t be flown as well as they were, and why there, you know, there was no wreckage in there. And I think this book...

K: It’s amazing that other pilots haven’t come forward because this is...

J: Well, other pilots are employed; they can’t afford to come forward. There’s very few, you know, people, there’s a lot of...

K: But this is our COUNTRY we’re talking about...

J: They can’t do it. A lot of my information was taken from Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators [holds up the booklet] and I explain WHY an airplane cannot fly 500 mph at a thousand feet. It has to do with drag, and it has to do with power and it has to do with the fact that they use turbofans. It just can’t happen. So anyway the government’s and NIST’s contention is that they flew 500 mph - it didn’t happen. It couldn’t happen.

So basically that’s what I explained in my suit. Now, you say why don’t many pilots come forward? Many have, there’s an organization called and I’m a member, one of the earlier members of that, and there’s a lot of people that realize that this couldn’t have possibly happened. There was no, an airplane like a Boeing 757 flying into the Pentagon. No, that didn’t happen.

K: So what happened at the Pentagon?

J: At the Pentagon, a bomb went off to make that hole there and they had a 55 gallon drum of diesel fuel that a guy lit, to make all that black smoke there. And April Gallup who...

K: Yeah, I think the April Gallup story is fascinating.

J: ...April Gallup was a...

K: Okay, so let’s, let’s go back where we were, which is...

J: Okay, we’re talking about April Gallup.

K: Right, April, okay.

J: April Gallup was an Army Specialist, and I forget what her job was but, she was - she had a Top Secret clearance. She was sitting about 40 feet from the - where the explosion made the hole in the front of the Pentagon and she had her six-month-old son right below her desk and she thought that was odd because, usually, when she went to work, before going through security, they had to put the little kids in day care, but on that day, security said, “No, take the kid in with you”.

So, she had it - she had the kid right below in his little holder there, and she says it was really strange because as she pressed the ON button for her computer, that’s when the building exploded, and she said a lot of debris came down on her and she saw the hole over there and she thought, “I got to get out of here”. So she picked up her kid, put him over her back, and went towards that opening and she got through that opening onto the grass - which is where, eventually, the triage was set up.

But she said she saw no missile, saw no airplanes, smelled no fuel. There was no airplane in there. And later in the hospital she got interviewed by Army Intelligence and they asked her what she saw, and she started to say “I didn’t see anything” and they said “No, yes you did. You saw a Boeing 757 crash into there”. She says “No, no, no, I didn’t. There was nothing there”. And she’s gone through hell for the last four or five years trying to get medical care.

It’s been a really very, very sad story. But, one of the things I wanted to show this is a page from a military manual talking about stuff that they would like to get in the year 2025. This is called airborne holographic projector, you can see where I got it. You can’t get it any more here, was and I got about 250 pages of this stuff...

K: It’s talking about a hologram machine.

B: It refers to enemy perception management, is that right? That’s such a wonderful euphemism. Have I remembered that right?

J: Yeah, it says... brief description: “The holograph projector plays a three dimensional visual image in a desired location, removed from a display generator. The projector can be used for psychological operations and strategic perception management. It is also useful for optical deception, and cloaking, providing a momentary distraction when engaging an unsophisticated adversary. And it has capabilities, precision projection of a three dimensional visual images into a selected area. Supports [si-op and strategic deception management and provides deception and cloaking against optical centers.”

K: Okay, and when was that written, do you know?

J: I think in ‘99. I’m not sure. I’ll give you an address where you can get it NOW.

K: Okay.

J: It’s not at THAT address.

K: Right.

J: But I think it’s at Maxwell Air Force Base.

K: We have to believe if that’s out in the public sector, that this is just the tip of the iceberg as far as this technology goes.

J: Absolutely.

B: Strategic Perception Management. Isn’t that just wonderful?

K: It’s great.

B: I just think that’s so great.

K: Alright.

B: An unsophisticated enemy, like the people in the streets of New York.

J: [Laughs] I was going to say that.

B: [Laughing]

J: And I thought, you know what - I don’t think that I’ll say that!

K: [Laughing]

B: Nothing personal against New York.

J: But they have, and when you go into it, they have what they call the hybrid high energy laser system [HELWEPA...High-Energy Laser Weapon Systems Applications]. But when you go in here and get a close up of this system, it’s showing you how they could attack right between Iran and Afghanistan. It’s hilarious, you know, it’s - that’s where they’re going to be attacking and that’s where they knew they were going to be attacking back in, you know, 1999, you know. And that, that was published then so, you can see how far ahead they plan this stuff. I mean they plan it thirty years ahead. I was looking for that page...

K: Okay, when you say they’re going to be attacking between Iran and...

J: Afghanistan. That’s where the pipeline is coming, they want that area.

K: Okay, right, so that’s why we’re going to war with Iran, is what you’re saying.

J: Yeah, we want to clear that area so we can run the pipeline down there.

K: It sounds like you’re saying they’re going to use a special kind of weapon to attack there.

J: Well they could use that hybrid high energy laser, you know, they got plenty of stuff they could use.

K: Right.

J: But it was just odd that, you know, that it would be all ready on PAPER, available to the public to show them where they’re going to be attacking.

K: Okay, this is...

B: What you said to us off-camera, just before we started, was you felt there was going to be, I think you used the words nuclear war.

J: Oh yeah, I have no doubt that we’re going to nuke Iran. I’m sure that’s in the plan and Cheney certainly wants to do it. I don’t know have any inside information, but It looks to me, like, one of the scenario, possible scenarios, would be that Bush gets assassinated in October. Cheney becomes President and then declares Martial Law. And then something happens and where we “have to” attack Iran. Of course, we won’t attack Iran - we’ll get Israel to do it. And, they’ll attack them with their nukes and then we’ll slap them on the wrist by saying we’re going to give you 50 billion dollars for a rehabilitation program here, so that you won’t nuke anybody else. Psychological rehabilitation program. We’ll give them, you know...

K: Okay, but nobody’s going to get away with nuking anyone, I mean, in other words, you’re going to have China, you’re going to have Russia, I mean, basically we’re going to be at World War III at that point, right?

J: Yeah, but it won’t be that big. What they’re going to do is cut the cables, communication cables...

K: Oh, the undersea cable thing.

J: Yeah, so that there’s not a lot of communications, so that they can give...

K: So no one knows what’s really happening.

J: No one really knows what’s happening. It will all be handled on an upper level. All this is handled on an upper level. All this has been planned in communication with, and in agreement with China and Russia. They all know what’s going on. So it’ll be, you know, just to try out new weapons and...

K: Well, actually, this is what, again, our Henry Deacon says. He says China’s in on it. There’s going to be a war with China, but they already know it’s planned.

J: Yeah, of course. And like everybody was ready for the Japanese Yakuza and the Chinese satellite and on ATS they said “they’ll tell us what’s going on, they’ll give us the real picture” and all they did was recycle old NASA pictures, you know. And of course China was very embarrassed. You know they said “these are not recycled NASA pictures”, but you could go right to where, you know, yes, that was an old recycled NASA picture. Now, what they’re doing up there orbiting the moon, if they ARE orbiting the moon, I don’t know. But they’re certainly not taking pictures, you know, that they could use for themselves. [pause]

K: Why not?

J: Because they’re already in on it, they already know what’s there, I mean, you know we mined them...

K: So what’s the modus operandi behind doing all of this? I mean, why are they, why are they going to plan wars - nuclear you’re talking about - nuclear wars where, you know, millions of people are going to die, land is going to become uninhabitable. I mean, you know, this is crazy - even if they wanted to keep a pipeline...

J: That sounds like a good reason.

K: There, what’s the point of making the LAND, I mean, you know...

J: You know, they’ve cleaned up nuclear weapons in the past thirty years, they don’t have that much radiation.

K: Why go nuclear though? I mean it’s so messy. Why would, I mean, you know, I’m not a military guy, but if they’ve got scalar weaponry and they’ve got HAARP, I mean, you know; they’ve got earthquakes they can cause, I mean, there are a lot of other things they can do besides going, I mean, that just seems like the nth degree of insanity. Why would they do it?

J: You know it’s like asking when I talk about Endeavor and the space shuttle being such an outmoded method of getting to the ISS...

K: Right.

J: ...and people say “well if we have all this cool stuff that you say like, you know satellites and anti-grav stuff and everything, why do they use the space shuttle?” It’s the same thing with the nuke thing. There’s levels of secrecy, levels of intelligence, you want to keep a certain segment of the people knowing just, you know, thinking that the space shuttle is all we got, you know, and nuclear weapons are “all we got”, so we use those. It’s that type of deal.

K: Okay, so you’re going to kill millions of people, eliminate...

J: I don’t think it’ll be MILLIONS, but it’ll be a few.

K: And what is Iran going to do at that point? You know?

J: Oh, they’ll get all pissed off. I don’t really know what they’ll do.

K: Uh huh. Ok, do you have any inside contacts about THIS?

J: Ahh, let’s see. About Iran, about nuking Iran?

K: Yeah.

J: No.

K: Okay, [long pause] What about 2012 and a hologram of an alien invasion, have you heard this scenario?

J: Absolutely. It would be probably what they’re going to do.

K: [Laughs]

J: They’re going to put a hologram and say “Oh, we’re being attacked by aliens. We’ve made a deal with the ambassador and he says that they feel that Earth is a threat and that; but, if you all take all, any weapons you have and turn them in, that they’ll give us a second chance.

K: So at that point we have one world government because...

J: Yeah.

K: ...they could put everybody under the same roof and basically all the countries, your talking not individuals bringing their rifles...

J: Yeah, individuals. Yeah that’s one of the things the aliens want is for all you guys, you know, to turn in your individual weapons so that they don’t feel so much of a threat.

K: But aliens, come on, okay, so this is a scenario...

J: It’s a scenario where the government wants to disarm us and they way is to put a hologram up there of an attack and they say we’ve been in communications with them and...

K: A common enemy and...

J: Right.

K:’s a fake enemy.

J: ...and you can really help us if you’ll turn in all your weapons. Of course by the time we’ve turned in all weapons, there’s not much we can do, when we find out it’s just a scam - like 911 was. Yeah, that’s a scenario I’m sure that’s going to happen.

(continued in Part 2, Part 3 and Part 4)