John Lear Tells All:
transcript - Part 3
This page is a reformatted version of the original Project Camelot publication.
John Lear Tells All
Las Vegas, Nevada, April 2008
John Lear: You know, he was going nuts then because they were shooting his tires out. He came here the night... the day they shot his tires out, or the one tire out. And, you know, he came here and said: John, I’m going to turn myself in. And I said: Bob, there’s nobody to turn yourself in TO. Now stop it! You know?
Start of interview
J: Now [holding papers] these are the original Dulce papers. They were written in pencil by Mr. X, who lives in Henderson. And the reason he wrote them down was so that I could distribute them.
And there’s a page of information. And then there’s the drawings here that you can see are of the lab, and the vats with the human meat in it. And [pointing to a page] the test tubes with growing humans and different... [pointing] This is the womb with the different humans. [turning page] And the different vats. And the...
Kerry Cassidy: Where did these papers, the drawings, come from?
J: Mr. X copied them from the photographs that Thomas Castello gave to him to hide.
J: Mr. X got ONE of the boxes. One of the boxes was hidden in the mountains near Dolan Springs, which is southeast of here on your way to Kingman. So the deal was, they were af...
Oh, and then I took these, [shuffles through papers on desk] and what I did was, typed it up and made new black and white drawings from the pencil drawings, ’cause you couldn’t see the pencil drawings very clearly.
[pointing to drawing] So, you see you have the vat here and the little thing that comes down. It says: Seems to keep water vibrated. It was an amber liquid. And it gives the approximate dimensions. It says: Looks like large pieces of pale meat in cloudy water - submerged, not floating.
[turning pages] Each one of these is a description of one of the photos that Castello gave Mr. X. Here’s a picture of the cameras on the doorway to [points to words] scores of tanks or more. [turns page] And this is...
K: Now I forget. What happened to Thomas Castello?
J: I’m going to tell you. So [close-up of drawing] here’s a picture of... These “wombs” are hooked into machines. [reading] Wombs submerged in sort of yellow liquid, looks thicker than water. And these humans are growing there. [pointing to words] Creatures float in amber-colored water. Womb is grayish globs of yellow-white in grooves. Dozens of creatures in each womb. Can’t count the tanks - maybe scores or hundreds.
[points to drawing]These wombs were 2 feet vertically and 3 to 4 feet horizontally. These creatures... if you take them out of this womb... Here’s what it would look like if they placed them in your hands. [reading] They have three fingers, two toes. They’re not human. The color is wrong. Looks blue-gray. They have a very thin skin and they’re about 6 inches high.
[close-up of drawing]. These are what the test tubes look like. The room light was pink/purple, bright in some areas. Hundreds of these various stages of growth. In other words these tubes, these things that grow in here, are in various stages of growth.
Wispy hair, not quite a nose. The mouth looks sealed. The womb looks gray. Veins look dark gray. Creature white, pale eyes, dark lids. Can’t find a gender. Two toes, three fingers. Liquid amber color, not completely clear. Looks like the glass tube is about 5-foot high.
Then, [turning pages] this is various information. We don’t know what that is, but that was in the papers.
So Castello made 5 or 6 of these, waterproof, wrapped in plastic, containers. And they had [reading]: 25 black and white photos, video tape with no dialogue, and a set of papers that included technical information of the alleged jointly-occupied US/alien facility, one kilometer beneath the Archuleta Mesa near Dulce, New Mexico. Several persons were given the above package to hold for safekeeping. Most of those given the package were shown what the package contained, but were not technically oriented, or knew very little about what they were looking at.
So Mr. X was given one, hid it, and the deal was... Thomas was on the run. And Dulce or any of those operations send out bounty hunters. And these are like bikers or stuff, that could go find somebody for money. And they’re very serious about their occupation, and usually it doesn’t take very long to go get somebody.
But anyway, Thomas told Mr. X: I’m going to be here every 4 months, just to show you that I’m alive. Or I’ll be in contact. If I miss TWO four-month contacts, or 8 months - two in a row - then you can release these papers.
So, this all happened in 1987. And I think 1993 or ’94 was when Castello missed his connections. In other words, he missed the contact at the first 4 months and the second at 8 months. So it was decided to go and get the box.
I didn’t go myself, but I believe Bill Hamilton did. I think he was one of them. And I think Tal was another one, but I’m not sure, I don’t remember. It’s been, you know, almost 20 years ago. But I do remember that it was a serious effort, that they made at least 6 expeditions in to find this box and it was never found.
Bill Ryan [off camera]: You said it was buried at the top of the mountain? Is that correct?
J: It wasn’t at the top. I don’t think it was at the top. It was hidden about half way up.
K: We heard there was like a spell or black magic, you know, some kind of spell cast on that whole area around the box.
J: Could have been. I do know that there is nothing secret that any of us do. We’re always on film or video or some kind of camera, have been for 40 years. There’s absolutely nothing we can hide. Nothing we think or say or do is secret.
K: Meaning you guys are surveilled because you were involved?
J: No. Everybody. Every person on the face of the Earth.
K: [laughs] Oh. Right!
J: There’s nothing that anybody does that’s secret. And the Navy... In some of the stuff that Linda Howe came out with...
As a matter of fact I had a chance to talk with her the other day. She had found some papers in her garage that looked pretty technical and she said she had got them in the late ’80s, but she had never read them.
And so now that she had taken the time to read them, she thought they had a lot of value... and were they mine? And I said, No, they don’t sound like mine. And she said, Okay. Well I’m going to post them. So she posted them on her website. And somebody on ATS says: Hey man, ya got to look at this. Or maybe not on ATS. I think it was gone by then. It was somebody, like on Open Minds.
And I said, Okay, I’ll take a look. So I went over there. And it was... You know, you have to pay dues. Or, you know, you have to pay a fee to get on her stuff. So I couldn’t get in.
J: So I wrote her and I said: Linda, I’m a little short at this time. [Kerry laughing] Can you let me look at them? And I never heard from her. So I got somebody to download it and I read it all. And all it was was stuff that me and Tal and everybody else in the industry... Somebody had taken all that and put it together like it was one big, you know, document.
K: Oh. Okay.
J: All of our stuff. And there’s some hidden phrases. The one that I remember specifically was talking about a former Attorney General in Nevada named Brian, and I forget what his first name was. His last name was Brian, and it was spelled B-R-I-A-N. And his real name is BRYAN.
For some odd reason I have the capacity to recall stuff that happened, you know, 50 years ago – exactly. And I don’t know what it is, you know? But I can recall stuff I read; stuff, you know... people I talked to. Anything to do with this. [touching papers on his desk] It’s instant. And I don’t know about how it works, because there’s a lot of other stuff I don’t remember.
J: But stuff like... Reading... I can take that document and read right through it and say No, I know who wrote each one of these. You know? And recall that. So...
K: That’s great.
J: The document that she had was not secret at all.
K: So the box was never found? What about the other 6 boxes?
J: Each one was given to a friend and none of them was found.
J: So that’s pretty much the end of the Dulce story. It comes up every once in a while.
K: What about Mark Richards? Have you ever heard of him? He’s the guy... Well, he’s a guy who said he was a security guard, who is in prison right now for another, you know... it was like a set-up. He says he was set up for murder. His wife, Joanne, I guess is out...
J: Total, total unadulterated bullshit!
J: And that’s from three of us who have researched that story backwards, forwards, upside down. That’s The Dark of the Moon, or something like that. I mean, it was crazy. When I started to read that... I actually paid for it! I sent... you know, actually paid real money for that story. And, you know, because he says he was a test pilot for my father back in the late ’40s. And that would have fit because, you know, he did use test pilots back then.
And some of it sounded pretty interesting. But then, when I read the attack on Dulce and, you know, the attack... The Dulce story, the fight, what we call the “Dulce war,” was not a war at all.
What happened is they were in the ... This is like in the late ’70s, I think it was. ’79. The Gray - one Gray - was giving a class to about 40 US scientists. And it was at Dulce. And it was just a class. And guards - our guards, the Delta Force - were advised they were not allowed to go into a classroom with a Gray, or approach a Gray, or be anywhere near a Gray, with a firearm of any sort.
And so, for whatever reason, this security guard walked into this instructional class with a weapon and the Gray killed him instantly. I mean there was no warning, no nothing, just killed him instantly.
K: Oh wow.
J: And so the Delta Force who were watching it on the monitor went in force to get, you know... to take revenge on something they had witnessed. And when it was all said and done, there was 66 people killed and it included all the scientists and all the Delta Force. Now...
B: By the one Gray?
J: By the one Gray. So I had heard this story. And when Bob was at S-4, he read the identical story. He heard the word Dulce. The only difference between the document - the briefing he read on the massacre - was that it occurred at Area 51. And the only possible explanation that I have for that is, his clearance hadn’t advanced high enough for him to know about Dulce. Because it didn’t happen at Area 51. It happened at Dulce. But he did read the whole description, and he talks about that.
Maybe we’ll have time... There’s a videotape over there [points across the room] called The Bob Chronicles and very few people have seen it. And what it was, was when Bob decided not to go back to work at the test site and he was, you know... He was going nuts then, because they were shooting his tires out. He came here the night... the day they shot his tires out – or the one tire out.
And... you know, he came here. He said: John, I’m going to turn myself in. I said: Bob, there’s nobody to turn yourself in TO! Now stop it! [John and Kerry laughing] You know? And so he slept on the couch that night and um... I lost my train of thought there. He slept on the couch... What was I talking about?
B: Before that you were talking about his having seen these documents but he wasn’t cleared to know about Dulce. But he was told about the firefight.
K: But you were saying this tape... the tape that he recorded...
J: Oh, the tape - The Bob Chronicles. So anyway, right after that George Knapp went in and did an hour of interview over at his house to get everything on tape that he could possibly tell us, so that if they did kill him, then that at least we’d have that.
J: And that was before we had made, you know, the Lazar tape. The Lazar tape, you know, took three or four months to do, you know. And then that was a professional one. But what George wanted to do was get the meat of the information right now so that we had a....
K: So you’re saying you have that?
J: Yeah, it’s right there [pointing across the room]. I gave it to Ron, um....
J: Garner... the other day, to put it on DVD.
K: Did you?
J: [nodding] Mm hm.
K: So, are you going to try to sell it?
J: I don’t think so. I told ’im... No, it’s... We tried to get it... I talked to George about it and he said no, technically it belongs to Channel 8. So he can’t do anything with it. So I said, Okay. I just show it to friends, you know, to say that...
K: Yeah, we’d love to see it!
K: That’d be great.
J: So in a few minutes here we’ll take a little break and I’ll show that.
B: I’d like to ask you how that dovetails into the Phil Schneider story about the firefight at Dulce.
J: Well, you know, Phil’s a great guy. I met him on several occasions. It’s a great story. I think there’s aspects of Phil Schneider’s story that are true, but I don’t think the Dulce is. And I don’t think that he was in the Dulce firefight. Because everybody got killed there.
K: Well isn’t it possible there’s more than one?
J: Possible. But Bob only read one. And the guys that I’ve talked to... A few minutes ago we were talking about the insiders that I had met. And then the one insider I told you about - that told me about building the piece of mining equipment that was so huge and he doesn’t know how it went to the Moon - he talked about Dulce. And he said that he knew it as Section D. And there’s other people that know it as section D and not Dulce.
J: That guy specifically... he was the insider. When I talk about an insider, this guy was on the inside, and he said... You know, he told me stuff I hadn’t heard before. For instance, I’d always heard that we’d been to the Moon earlier than 1969. He said: Yeah, we were there in ’62; to Mars in ’66.
J: He was the one that told me about the fourth astronaut being killed in Apollo 1, because he was there two hours later. And they sent him specifically. He didn’t say why they called for him or what he did. But he said that instantaneously as the fire was going out, NSA, who controls everything there – it’s not NASA; it’s the National Security Agency - they locked down the whole area.
Nobody moved while they went in there - NSA guys - and removed that body. They had to, you know, take Grissom and Chaffee and White and get that guy. ’Cause where he was sitting was down by the environmental control unit. And I’ll show you what the Apollo module looks like... because when you first start talking about a fourth guy, it’s: Oh there’s no room, I’ve seen it in a museum.
Well, there’s plenty of room down there because that’s where they stored the Moon rocks... were going to store the Moon rocks. And the guy would stick his feet there and lay his head up on the instrument panel. And the astronauts would be laying this way [motioning behind and over his head] and he’d be laying that way [pointing towards his feet].
And what it was, was there was always a fourth guy there to help them sort out their problems. Now, that particular day, Joe Shea was supposed to be there and for some reason Joe couldn’t be there. And so this astronaut, whoever he was, was in there helping them sort these problems out.
And any book over there [pointing] on Apollo that you read, the official story is that Walt Schirra met with Joe Shea at lunch and said: You know, why don’t you hook up an extra fourth headset in there and send somebody else in to go help them sort out their problems?
And Joe Shea allegedly said: Yeah. I think we’ll try that out. And then each book goes on to say it was too difficult to do; that they woulda had to hang wires out the hatch, and they had to seal the hatch - so they couldn’t do it. And all that, of course, is bullshit. They had everything wired for a fourth astronaut in there just for that specific purpose, to help them sort through the problems.
Now you know Clark McClelland?
B: Clark McClelland, yes.
J: Clark McClelland and I have talked of this at length. And, you know, to this day it hurts him to talk about it, because it was so awful. But, you know, we’ve talked about what happened after that, you know. And his feeling is - he’s the one that told me – he said it was not a specific KILL, but they let it happen. They let them die. And this one really hurts Clark.
Okay, about a week ago CNN said that a 220-mile by 40 or 50-mile chunk of ice had broken off from Antarctica and that it just demonstrated how serious global warming was becoming. And it had a video taken by a British crew in a Twin Otter, flying along this huge chunk of ice that was cut as straight as an arrow for 40 miles.
And, this was trying to be sold to us, the public, as something that had just broken off, when it was obviously a direct energy weapon that had made all the square cuts on this. And they’re using the weapons that they have - the direct energy weapons - to do all kinds of stuff like that.
That one was to cut that piece of ice off so that we would worry about global warming. Which... yes, there is global warming, but we had nothing to do with it. It’s just a natural cycle of Earth that is going to go warm up for a while and then it’ll cool off for a while. There’s nothing we can do about it.
Other things they have done with that... certainly the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, was absolutely a direct energy weapon. No doubt about it. I’m sure that Timothy McVeigh is alive and well now. He was part of the operation. There’s no way that they’d let him die. That was a test for the direct energy weapon, which was pre-assessed for the 911.
And talking about the Atlas 5 mystery launch... Atlas 5 is a missile that we... is one of our current missiles that we use to launch all kinds of things into space. This one was launched 24 hours after Atlantis, the STS-122, was scrubbed at Kennedy Space Center. Patrick AFB is right next to that; it’s the military Cape Canaveral.
And somehow they got this thing launched in 24 hours. And I’m just saying the importance of the story was, something that was going to go up in Atlantis HAD to get up there, and there was no delaying it. So they had to get the range ready and put these astronauts - I’m sure they were astronauts; it could have been cargo, but I’m sure it was astronauts - in this Atlas 5 and launch it.
Now the Atlas 5, of course, has a huge payload on top, and there could be anything in it. I’ve never seen what’s in it. I assume there’s a little spaceship in it and two or three astronauts get in it. When Atlas 5 goes up, it opens like that [motioning with hands cupped and then opening them], and that little spaceship goes out and can maneuver between all the other space platforms we have. And then it can come back in and glide in and land.
What’s so suspicious about this is they got that thing into the air within 24 hours after Atlantis was scrubbed - and the story they put out with it. And later I’ll show you the headlines of that story which made it so suspicious.
One of the things I wanted to tell you about is that I’ve been driving between Las Vegas and Reno for maybe 30 years. My folks moved up there in 1968. I moved here in 1974. And about two-thirds of the way to Reno there’s a nice little town called Hawthorne, Nevada. There’s a nice little lake there. It’s called Walker Lake. It’s about 14 miles long and about 80 feet deep. It’s a very picturesque little place, huddled up against the mountains.
There’s two military operations there. One is an Army ammunition fabrication, where they make different types of explosives - missiles, that type of stuff. That’s on one side of the road. On the other side of the road is a place called NUWC, and that stands for the “Naval Undersea Warfare Center.”
Now, every time I go by there I see that beautiful little sign that says “Navy Undersea Warfare Center,” and I realize we’re about as far out in the middle of Nevada as you can possibly get. All there is, is sand and mountains as far as you can see. And this little teeny lake. It couldn’t possibly be used for undersea warfare training because it’s not that big.
So I’ve always wondered... And you can look down in there - and it kinda slopes down towards the lake - and you see a couple of nondescript buildings, but nothing very interesting. So I’ve always wondered what that place is.
Now over the years, flying for the different airlines that I’ve had, I’ve talked to three different people who have said there’s a submarine base there.
Now, I’ve always, you know, wondered, first of all... Submarines couldn’t come up in Walker Lake. It just can’t happen. It’s too shallow. There’s no way they could do that. And, besides, there’s a bottom to that and they couldn’t come out. So these people have been very knowledgeable who have told me this, and I’ve always wondered what the real deal was.
So last August I gave a talk at the San Jose UFO Expo West. And my topic was The Civilization on the Moon, when I talked about the civilization on the Moon. And, after it, a Navy guy came up - in full dress uniform, young man - and thanked me for my talk.
And I said: Should you be here?
And he said: Oh yeah, no problem.
I said: Great! When were you last down in the tubes? Or I said: Have you been down in the tubes lately?
And he said: Every day.
Now that’s the key question you ask a Navy guy. Because, you know, the Navy has an underground tube system that goes all around the world, and it’s very, very fast. You can go anywhere in the world in an hour. And it’s very secret. It’s been operational since, you know, the ’60s - and everybody knows about it - but it’s a big, big secret. And it’s a big Navy secret.
I’ve known some really, you know, interesting and top level Navy guys, and I’ve never found anybody that actually admitted being down there except this one guy. So when he did that, I said: You know, this guy’s in. He knows it. So I met with him later and he told me a lot interesting things.
K: Well, what’s the description of the tubes? When you say “the tubes,” you’re talking about... like what? A high-speed train?
J: Yeah. It’s a high-speed train. It’s about the diameter of this room. And they have little cars that you get into and you lay kind of prone like this [leaning back in chair], and you pull the hood down there [simulating by putting hand over his head and down in front of him]. And WHOOSH! And you’re, you know, anywhere in the world in an hour.
J: I talked to this guy and one of the things I said, you know: Do you know anything about Hawthorne? [Kerry laughs]
And he said: No. He said: Why?
And I said: Well, you know, there’s the Naval Undersea Warfare Center there.
[He said]: Oh yeah. I know what you’re talking about. Yeah, he said. The entrance is in... north of Fort Ord on Monterey Bay. [Kerry laughs]
He said that the Pacific Ocean underlies California, Nevada and Idaho. And he said [pointing to map of the western US] that’s the channel that goes from Monterey Bay to Hawthorne, and then there’s an elevator at Hawthorne that goes down 4300 feet - because the altitude of Hawthorne is 4300 feet - and the elevator takes them down to sea level under Hawthorne.
And that’s why the Army base is there, is because they make the ordnance that goes in the submarines. And that’s why you never see, or nobody’s ever seen, any ordnance-laden trucks come out of Hawthorne either south or north. They don’t. They go right down to the Pacific Ocean where the submarines go in and they load up there and they come out here [pointing to California coast on map].
And there’s also... Now I know what a friend of mine was... Scottie Lyon, SEAL Team 6, one of the original SEAL Team founders. Great guy, passed away now, so now I can tell. He told me there was a secret Navy base in Lake Tahoe. He didn’t tell me more than that. But now I see what everybody is talking about. There’s underground bases, Naval bases, that - connected by the Pacific Ocean - that go all over.
There‘s some up in Idaho. And who knows? You know, a few months ago on ATS a guy said that his father worked on nuclear submarines in St. Louis, Missouri. So, you know, and he went down there and he saw the lake and everything. So my question was: Did they come up the Mississippi? Or did they come eastbound in the Pacific Ocean to there? So then the question is: Does it connect with the Atlantic? And it’s very possible it does.
Two of the original nuclear submarines that were lost by the Navy, as you remember, were the Thresher and the Scorpion. And both of them had fantastic stories of, you know, a valve coming apart, or attacking a Soviet submarine, and that kind of stuff.
But if you go into the Branton Files and read about that story, those subs were lost exploring this area here [pointing to map of California to Nevada]. Both of them... the Thresher and the Scorpion.
And what was interesting is... on ATS when I first started talking about this [laughing] they called in the big team from the Pentagon. [Kerry laughs] And this blowhard Navy guy comes in, you know, all huffy and huffy, and: I hear somebody wants to talk about the Thresher and the Scorpion, you know.
And I let him have it. And of course he’s gone the next day. He didn’t realize, you know. He thought he was going to, you know, intimidate us there. That was really interesting.
Now one of the other things I heard about was a computerized battleship. It’s called Fleet 21. It exists. They just finished their sea trials southwest of Coronado. It’s going into full operation now.
It’s 600 feet long, and just exactly like any other battleship, except there’s not one person on it. It’s all computerized. There’s a helicopter landing pad on the back, that if anything goes wrong, they bring in a team with nine members, and they go down and they get to the computer room and they fix it, and then take off. But what that allows us to do is make total attacks with a battleship with nobody being hurt.
J: The other thing I heard was we have [holding a drawing] what’s called a Fast Attack Submarine.
Now, the stuff that I’m telling you is technically not classified, for this reason: Several years ago it was determined that the minute you classified something, you had to do so much paperwork that it became unclassified. Too many people had to know about it. So the best to do was not tell anybody about it except those people that knew about it and not classify it. And that way you can keep it more secret - if that makes any sense.
[showing diagram] This is the nuclear-powered Fast Attack Submarine. The interesting thing about this is, I believe it uses fusion instead of fission. It’s only 70 feet long. Imagine a nuclear source that could power that thing within that small a space.
[pointing to side of vessel] This is a 12-man SEAL Team Lockout. And this is the submarine. I think there’s about 70 of them now. That’s the one, I believe, that cut the cables, because they can dive down deep enough, get down there and have their 12-man team go out there and do whatever they want with the cables. This thing is very highly advanced. It’s 70 feet long, goes 120 knots and has a nine-man crew.
[pointing] The ROV here stands for Remote Operated Vehicles. They’re tucked in there and there’s three of them. One of them can fly. They can actually go up and fly around and take pictures or do whatever you want.
Now, you look at the 120 knots speed and say: John Lear, now come on, we know that planing and submerged hulls cannot possibly go that fast. Well, the fact is, now they’ve found, or they’ve perfected, solved, “boundary layer control.” And boundary layer control is that portion of the sea that comes in contact with the ship and creates friction.
B: So it’s similar to the technology they’ve got on the wings of the B2 Bomber?
B: But applied to water.
B: I understand.
J: And they make the stuff up in space in manufacturing plants. When the shuttle comes back and when other airplanes... (I’ll show you another picture of an airplane here that was seen over Ireland a couple years ago) ...come back, they’re bringing parts. And they bring it back in sheets, rolls and bars.
And it’s a stuff that’s fantastic, and you can do all kinds of stuff. But what the most important thing you can do... Like on submarines, it keeps the boundary layer - that layer between the hull and the sea - about 3 to 5 centimeters away, so there’s absolutely no friction. Nor is there any noise associated with that.
So they use that not only on their new battleships, but on their submarines, and on their airplanes. It’s a really, really fantastic piece of material.
So that’s how they can go 120 knots. We know that the displacement hull of a boat, like say, the Ronald Reagan... Thetheoretical max speed is 1.34 times the waterline. So we know the waterline of the Ronald Reagan is about a 1000 feet. So you take 1.4 times the square root of that and you come out with about 32 knots. And that sounds reasonable to most people. You know, as aircraft carriers going 32 knots – man, that’s really hauling.
The fact is, I think the Ronald Reagan goes about 90 knots. The reason I think that is because the Enterprise definitely went 75 knots. I have friends that operated on that, and they said that whenever they had to go some place fast, they would tell everybody to get below decks - you know, because weather was coming. And then they’d get it up to 75 knots.
The reason they did that is: Number 1 - they didn’t want anybody figuring out how fast they went. And they didn’t want to get them blown off deck. Because 75 knots is really rolling - that’s almost 90 miles an hour! And you don’t want anybody trying to walk across on the deck when they’re used to just maybe walking around at 30 knots.
And then when you say: Well, when they got there, wouldn’t they ask any questions? No. The fact is nobody asks any questions.
TWA 800 was shot down by a Navy submarine. It’s been kept under wraps like that. I often hear people say: Well that’s not possible because we know that Navy guys are the most talkative in the world and certainly somebody would talk.
That’s not true. Navy is one of the closest-knit forces in the world. Nobody says nothing unless they’re supposed to. And there’s no possible way that anybody on that submarine would have ever told anything. Yes, one person did call his Dad. And that person called Jim Sanders, who wrote The Downing of Flight TWA 800. But that was the only one who said anything.
B: Which missile was it?
J: I don’t know. But it was one that was aimed at a drone. And when they launched it, the drone was between TWA 800 and the submarine. And for some reason, when the missile was launched it lost - instantaneous, just for an instant - a lock on the drone. And when it reacquired a lock, it reacquired TWA 800. And when it went through TWA 800, it went through first class, you know, knocked the nose off, and caused the center tank, you know, to explode.
K: So you’re saying it was an accident.
J: It was an accident. It was a Navy accident. They were just using it for live-fire exercises.
J: And they had done that forever. And that was the fifth airplane - civilian airliner - that the Navy had shot down since 1963.
The first one was Flying Tiger Line, who I worked for. A Lockheed Constellation over Guam, where a Navy pilot went up and he was just doing some, you know, aiming at the airliner going by because he had nothing else to aim at, and accidentally let a missile go. And it shot down, killed everybody on board. And that accident was always, you know, “unknown causes.”
But it caused Flying Tiger Lines to be the largest cargo carrier during the Vietnam War and the Pentagon to authorize a separate Flying Tiger Airline, which was called Flying Tiger Air Services, to run the extra flights down from Japan, down to Vietnam. I mean, Flying Tigers made a fortune off that accident. And I was in close con...
B: Just before I lose the point, I’d like to compare the testimony here. Because we were told by Henry Deacon - now he actually asked us to take this off our website - because he was curious about what had happened to TWA 800. So when he was on the inside, he asked around.
He said it was a Stinger missile. They aimed exactly at the drone and just missed. This is exactly the way he said it. He said it was a Navy genuine accident. He said the whole thing was covered up. He said the thing was right at the top of its classified altitude limit - which is higher than is publicized - about 14,000 feet.
J: That’s possible. Because it’s publicized at 8,000 feet. And that’s why all this cancelled the Stinger out.
B: Yes. Is it possible that a Stinger would be fired from a submarine? I thought this thing was hand-held.
J: No, I think the Stinger story and its classified altitude is... Maybe we’re trying to make it like... terrorists fired it instead of the Navy. We would rather have terrorists fire it instead of our Navy. Because our Navy just shot down the Iranian ship, so why did they shoot down...
B: What Henry said was that it was a Stinger, but it was a Navy accident.
J: It could have been. Whatever it was, I doubt if a Stinger would be fired from a Navy vessel. There’s too much evidence that the Navy did it. They did it and I doubt if they did it with a Stinger.
J: A Stinger has an explosive on it and there were no explosives in TWA 800. There was only the fuel which damaged anything. And that’s for the record.
J: Sanders did an excellent thing on that. But anyway, so that was TWA 800. And it affected me directly because what the FAA came up with as an excuse – and you know, this is all Richard Clark’s fault - you know, trying to blame it on a center tank, exposed wiring in a fuel pump.
That’s SO impossible, I cannot even tell you! During the time of this investigation I was flying a Lockheed L1011, which was a huge cargo airplane. It had a mammoth cargo door. and I was taking Boeing 777 cowlings from Wichita, where they were made at Boeing, to Seattle.
And when we’d wait for this thing to be loading, and we’d talk with the Boeing guys, they were just furious that the FAA and the NTSP were trying to lay this on arcing wiring in a fuel pump. Because there IS no wiring in a fuel pump that’s anywhere near the fuel.
It’s just ridiculous. And everybody was pissed off about the whole thing. I was pissed off because the FAA then said that you had to keep enough fuel to cover the fuel pump so that it wouldn’t arc – because, you know, if there’s fuel there, it can’t arc. Like it’s only if there’s fumes there, will it arc.
Well, on the L1011 we had about 115,000 pounds of cargo capacity. And if we kept the center tank fuel pump covered, we lost about two or three thousand pounds. And that was the make-or-break. And it eventually bankrupted Kittyhawk, who I was working for. But anyway...
K: I want to ask you a question. Did you know Ben Rich?
J: No. But I talked to people who did. Now I’ll tell you what Ben Rich had to do with this. First of all, do you know where he was born? Ben Rich was one of the most, the biggest, Mossad spy in the United States. I mean, he got the most classified information.
Here’s what happened. Here’s how we got messed up with Israel. In 1947 when Israel became a state, James Angleton was chief of CIA in Rome.
J: Okay. They sent Angleton down to Tel Aviv, along with some guys at MI-6, to form Mossad. And for some reason, whoever, or however it happened, James Angleton got allied with Mossad like this [crosses fingers] forever. He was the mole.
If you remember, in 1960 he was the head CIA Director of Foreign Intelligence and he was the guy that always was looking for the Russian mole. [laughing] HE was the Russian mole! Because, you know, he was so friends with Mossad, he’d tell Mossad stuff and Mossad would pass it on to Russia.
So when David Ben-Gurion, in the summer of 1963, said, you know: We have to kill Kennedy. We have to. I’m tired of him threatening us with inspecting Dimona. It’s none of his friggin’ business. I don’t want to hear any more from Kennedy. You kill him. He gave that order to Mossad and then resigned so that he couldn’t be held responsible for it. Mossad then went to Angleton.
The Kennedy assassination was not a CIA job, but it was greased by the CIA only because Angleton was in there with his buddies at Mossad. And he’s the one that greased the skids for everything that happened in Dealey Plaza and the escape and everything. There were Corsican sharpshooters there, hired by Mossad.
They pulled off the whole thing and everybody says: Oh, they think the mob killed Kennedy or maybe Johnson did or, you know, Castro. It wasn’t. It was Israel. And the reason they did is because David Ben-Gurion didn’t want any more inspections of Dimona. And that’s all.
K: And that’s their nuclear... That’s where they do their nuclear/biological testing?
J: That where they do the nuclear bombs, with plutonium they stole from us.
K: But what’s Ben Rich got to do with that?
J: Okay. So Ben Rich was born to a very wealthy Jewish family in the Philippines, and very highly educated. And he was slipped into Lockheed in 1953 as Kelly Johnson’s second-in-charge. And he was there for the development of the U-2 and he was there for the development of stealth.
K: There are a lot of Ben Rich, famous... kind of UFO quotes, that kind of allude to things... technology. Right?
B: Yeah. There’s nothing about it in that book [referring to book John’s leafing through]. That book‘s the inside story about what happened to the U-2.
K: I understand.
B: And the XR71.
K: But he did say... What’s the exact quote? You probably remember it.
J: We have stuff that would make George Lucas jealous. WE could take ET home.
K: Yeah. So, I mean, he was an insider from way back, is what you’re telling me. Right?
J: Yeah. But he was a Mossad spy, and I’m going to tell you how they did it. Okay now so...
K: But, on some level, if he’s a Mossad spy... Because the Mossad seems to be in cahoots with - if you want to call them – you, know, the Nazi, NASA-Nazi group.
J: I’m glad you understand that, because when people say: Did Israel have anything to do with 911? I say: As much as Santa Claus had to do with Christmas!
J: [laughing] So anyway...
K: So, yeah, they’re all working together. You’re telling me Angleton was involved with Mossad. You’re telling me Ben Rich was involved with Mossad. You know, we’ve got the whole... There’s a whole alignment there.
J: Absolutely-positively-beyond-a-shadow-of-a-doubt. So now we get ready to build the stealth fighter. And this was the beginning of the real secret stuff that went on within our government.
The Navy wanted a secret stealth fighter of their own. It was called the F-19. And it gets confused here, because people say: Oh, the F-19. That was really the F-117A. They just renamed it.
No. No, the F-19 was a separate airplane. They made 62 of them. I had a friend that not only worked in avionics, but I had a friend that knew about it. He didn’t fly it, but he knew the guys who did. So they were completely separate airplanes.
At the Skunk Works in Burbank... There was a gray iron kind of curtain that went down at the Skunk Works and [gesturing right] you had the 117A on this side and the [gesturing left] F-19A on this side. They used, both, F404’s, the engines. They used, both, the same landing gear. And the reason was that they were trying to build this secret Navy airplane without any money, using spare parts from the F-117A, so they’d keep it absolutely, totally secret.
And you know what? They have, to this day. Because you can’t find a person... That’s one of the big problems I had on ATS. People would come down on me. I’d start talking about the F-19, and boy, I’ll tell you, you talk about a sensitive subject! They didn’t want to hear that.
So here we have Ben Rich on page 48 [holding up book] talking about the Skunk Works and how it works. And he says: Meanwhile, the Navy came to us to test the feasibility for Stealthy weapon systems and set up their own top secret security system that was twice as stringent as the Air Force’s. We had to install special alarm systems that cost us a fortune at the section of our headquarters building devoted to Naval work. [Kerry laughs]
Okay, now here’s the set-up. All they wanted was stealthy systems.
OK. In the next paragraph he says: In the midst of all this inter-service rivalry, security and hustle and bustle, Major-General Bobby Bond, who was in charge of tactical warfare, came thundering into the Skunk Works with blood in his eye on a boiling September morning.
The Santa Ana winds were howling and half of L.A. was under a thick pall of smoke. My asthma was acting up, and I was in no mood for a visit. But General Bond was a brooder and a worrier and drove me and everybody else absolutely bonkers at the time, as he followed the progress of the F-117A.
He always thought he was being short-changed or victimized in some way. He pounded on my desk and accused me of having some of my best workers of his “Have-Blue” airplane – which was the 117A - to work on some rumored Navy project.
I did my best to look hurt and appease Bobby and even raised my right hand in a solemn oath. I told myself: “So what? It’s a little white lie. What else can I do? The Navy project is top secret and Bonds has no need to know. We could both go to jail if I told him what was really up.”
So here he says: Unfortunately, on the way out to lunch the General spotted a special lock and alarm system above an unmarked door which he knew from prowling the rings of the Pentagon was used only by the Navy on its top secret projects.
Bond squeezed my arm: “What’s going on inside that door?” he demanded to know. Before I could think up another lie, he commanded me to open the door. He said: “Rich, you devious bastard! I’m giving you a direct order! Open the goddamn door this instant or I’ll smash it down myself with this goddamn fire-axe!”
The guy meant every word of it. He began pounding on the door until a crack finally opened. He forced his way in, and there sat a few startled Navy Commanders. “Bobby, this isn’t what you think,” I lied in vain. “The hell it isn’t, you lying SOB!”
I surrendered, but not gracefully. “Okay, you got me. But before we go to lunch you’re going to have to sign an ‘Inadvertent Disclosure’ form or they’ll both have our asses!” The Navy, of course, was outraged at both of us. The Air Force General seeing their secret project was as bad as handing a blueprint to the Russians.
J: OK. So...
B: That’s the F-19. You’ve got an artist’s impression of on the wall up there, isn’t it?
J: At the end? Yeah. Those are artist’s renderings.
B: Beautiful plane.
J: Okay. Now, [pointing to book] see this little thing at the bottom of the page? It says General Bond was later killed in a test flight. Because of the tragedy, the Pentagon ruled that general officers could no longer do test flights.
That was in 1984. You know what he was killed in? The story was a MIG-23 - which we all knew was bullshit. He was killed in an F-19 because he demanded the Navy let him fly it. And what they did is, they disabled... electronically disabled... the control system and killed him.
And the reason they did, is they didn’t want the Air Force to know about the Navy project. And the reason they didn’t want them to know about the Navy project is, part of those airplanes were going to carriers and part were going to Israel. And THAT’S the story of Ben Rich.
B: Are you saying that Israel had, or has, the F-19?
J: The F-19. Yeah. I mean, it’s 25 years old. I mean, it’s a big deal? Israel has... Does Santa Claus have Christmas?
[John and Kerry laughing]
K: Great stuff! Okay. I want to ask you something else also. The General who Bush just fired, or whatever you want to call it...
J: Admiral Bill Fallon! I’ve got a whole... I’ve got an Esquire story! When I heard that, I went right down to Borders and I bought that thing and brought it home and read it word for word! [Kerry laughing] I mean you talk about a good guy! You know?
K: Yeah! Absolutely.
J: Oh absolutely! I made Marilee read that. I said: You read that, because that’s the difference between war and not war!
K: Yeah, absolutely!
J: I said: If there isn’t any Navy good guys, HE’S the Navy good guy. Now, you know, he’s been involved in a lot of bad stuff. He knows about the alien... He knows about everything. But he was trying to do a good job. So that was a bad...
K: So that’s a real red herring, right?
K: So we’re on a fast train somewhere right now?
B: That’s bad news that he quit, I mean, or is that just his way of...
K: He didn’t quit. He was fired, wasn’t he?
B: No, he quit.
J: No, he quit.
K: I know the story...
J: He probably knew it was coming. But the fact that he would actually say this in Esquire magazine, you know - two or three months before, knowing it was going to be published - now, you know, tells me he knows we are fast-tracking, you know, a nuke war in Iran. And there will be no war there without nuclear bombs. That’s a given.
B: What would Mike McConnell’s position be on this?
J: Mike McConnell... I’m sure, you know, he was MJ1. I think he’s a good guy. We’ve clued him in on our “Qui Tam” complaint because I think he can help. What he’s doing now doesn’t make any sense to the overall program, but, you know... I don’t know. I’m just hoping Mike is a good guy. What do you think?
B: We believe he’s a good guy. And it’s interesting...
J: You know about his complete tie-in with Dan right?
K: Oh yeah, absolutely.
B: It’s interesting to speculate that the reason for the release of the National Intelligence Estimate in early December was to spite Bush’s guns. Because that’s what it looks like... there was an attempt to stop the war.
J: And because of his tie-in with Dan, I think he’s a good guy.
K: Right. Yeah, that’s basically what we think, but because of what we’ve heard from Dan about him, you know.
J: So what I’ve told the guys in the “Qui Tam” complaint... Jerry Leaphart is the attorney; Morgan Reynolds filed it. Judy Wood filed her own separate suit. She’s the one that’s the expert in molecular disassociation - DEW’s. There’s a few people participating, including myself.
And, you know, I told these guys... I’ve been following along Morgan’s efforts. And in November I called him to make him aware of certain things I knew about airplanes that he didn’t know about. And he said: Are you the aviation guy? And I said: Yeah. And so we started an email dialogue.
And then in December he was going to take over Jim Fetzer’s program for a couple of days and he said: Would you like to be interviewed? And I said: Sure. So I went on there and then he found out just how much else I knew about 911.
And then, a couple days after that, he and Jerry emailed me and they said: You know, we’re honored at what you said. We believe, you know, you are very informed. Would you agree to help us? Would you be interested in filing an affidavit? And I said: Yeah! Tell me what you want. So I wrote that 15-page affidavit and ...
K: That’s great stuff.
J: ...and I’ve been with them ever since. But when I was getting into it I said: Now I want you guys to understand this – there is NO WAY we’re going to pull this off by ourselves. All we’re doing is opening the door for somebody to help us. There’s no way we can bring this. There’s too much power overhead.
I’m hoping that there’s guys like McConnell and Fallon that will see what they’re doing and figure out a way to help us - because we’re not going to do it ourselves.
K: Okay. Do you believe that America is going to dissolve into civil war sometime in the next few years?
J: I don’t think so.
K: You don’t?
[John shaking his head no]
K: Okay. Well, what do you think of the fact that a lot of stuff, a lot of government stuff, is being sent to Colorado? I mean, some say Denver is basically, you know... The Pentagon and everything else is moving to Colorado.
J: I think it’s Sandia, but I think Colorado’s a cover story. But I could be wrong. I think it’s all being sent right up there [pointing off camera]. As a matter of fact, let me undo this.... [John undoes mike and is now standing across the room]
20 years ago they were having trouble with keeping programs secret by using secret names. So what they did is, they would name a program a name that was common - like the Sandia Mountains, the Sandia Corporation, you know, the Sandia Desert, all that - and called it “Sandia.” So that if it ever came up, everybody would think: Oh you’re just talking about Sandia Corporation. I drove by there the other day. [Kerry laughs] You know, but no, that’s the way they keep something secret.
[John pulls out enlarged photo] Here’s the spaceport on the far side of the Moon. And I can just show you the NASA book with the NASA photographs and you can just take your own magnifying glass and see that spaceport. [Kerry laughs]
There’s no doubt about it. And you know why? Because the photo was taken in ’68, and NASA didn’t get serious about airbrushing until 1970. So I bought all those pre-1970 NASA photos, um... books, because they hadn’t developed their technique to airbrush...
K: Have you ever told Hoagland about that?
J: Yeah. As a matter of fact, we were on the George Noory show and George showed him that. And I said: Now does that look like a space terminal to you, Richard? And he said: No, it looks like an airline terminal.
Well, look. You can even see the tubes, the tube supports. I mean, there’s no doubt about it. Here’s the other thing... [pulls out another photo] Here’s a crater called Damoiseau. There is no doubt, you know, that areas like that... Those are all houses, buildings, stuff like that. I mean, there’s just no doubt.
So anyway, the other day I thought, you know, I’d just like to see...I’ve got this photo - was taken by Lick Observatory. So I got the other day... I was going to enlarge it to see if I could see that. So I take this photo here [holds enlargement] and I say: Okay it’s right here near Grimaldi, and I look. It’s all whited out!!! Look it... Here’s the beautiful fucking craters, and you look at that spot! Aren’t there any craters? No!!! It looks like there’s a fog! You’re talking about something that really pissed me off!!
J: So anyway I’m looking to show you Sandia. [unfolding large map]
K: Yeah. Please do.
J: This is my BEST map. [pointing to map] Here’s Las Vegas; here’s Groom Lake; here’s the Tonopah Test Range.
J: And here’s Sandia. It’s on the Paiute Mesa. There’s a strip up there and then there’s two new strips out on the dry lake there. And then up here they got a really neat secret base... Ely. Let’s see... here’s Wilson Creek, Lincoln, Welch. Oh, Ely, right out about here. That’s a dry lake there.
K: Well, that’s in the middle of nowhere.
J: That’s a 10,000-foot strip there. That’s a really secret one. You can drive by at 2 o’clock in the morning and every once in a while you will see the lights go on. Now, the way you can tell secret bases is, the runway lights are blue.
J: That’s the Air Force.
J: But they’ve got these...
K: Why are they blue? What’s the significance of blue?
J: That’s just what the Air Force secret-base runway lights are ... Blue. So they’ve got this new deal here that’s been in effect for like 20 years. Most of these things are underground. And when a pilot comes for an approach - only when he gets to be about 500 feet - the ground unzips like that [gestures, fingertips and palms together, then palms apart] and he just lands. And the ground... could be forest; it could be a desert; it could be a cotton field, it just unzips like that. He lands. It zips back up, and they take an elevator and go down.
K: Wow! That’s great.
J: So that’s Sandia. And that’s why it’s called Sandia. It’s to make people think that it’s just a regular place.
K: So you haven’t had any exposure to time travel, to jump rooms, to...
J: No, the jump room is great. And the other day Ron Blackburn was over here because he gave my 6-year-old a computer. (And I’ll have to think about whether we should edit this out or not.) But I was talking about the jump room and Ron said: Oh yeah, I know that. It’s jump technology. He said it just like that: Oh, that jump technology. I know that. [Kerry, John laughing]
Okay, here’s the space plane that the guy saw over Ireland. [reading from a hand-drawn diagram]: It’s 10 times bigger than a Boeing 747.
K: Wow. Incredible.
J: Twin tails slightly visible. Engine bay jet black. No nozzles.
K: So you’ve never seen anything like that, have you?
J: No. He saw it at sunset. He said: Sun angle very low, almost setting. Viewed at directly 7 o’clock, directly above, and it took 7 seconds to get to the horizon. He said: Disappeared over Belfast out of sunlight. A white small nose and no vapor trail, no sonic boom. Demarcation of body sections visible, all dark gray.
B: I had some correspondence with this guy.
J: Oh you did?
B: Yeah, just a couple of months back. And we figured things out together. The thing must have been going 18,000 miles per hour.
J: Miles Johnston?
B: Yeah. That’s correct.
J: These are his original drawings.
K: Oh wow.
J: When he first called me, he said: Would you have any interest in this? I said: Of course, Miles! Send it, send it! And he said: Well...
B: Now what I did, John, was I put him in touch with Mark McCandlish so that Mark McCandlish could make a real professional drawing for him. And so the two have been working together so that Mark can add it to his file. And so those two have been having a lot of fun.
J: If I had one planet I could go to, I’d pick Saturn. Because they say that, if you even get a look at it, your mind would be so boggled that you couldn’t do anything for three days.
I found a thread called Are Extraterrestrials Real, As Real As the Nose On Your Face? And it was 108 pages long and it had been closed. It had been closed because the guy, “Sleeper,” had been getting irritated with the questioners.
So I started reading this thing, and about page 18, I said: This is real. This guy knows what he’s talking about. This fits in with everything I’ve ever read. I need to talk to this guy. So I finished the 118 pages and I put them in that book over there that says Sleeper.
And so I emailed him, PM’d him, and eventually got to talking with him. And it was so fascinating. I said: Would you mind coming back? People got to hear this stuff!
He said: No, no, I’ll come back.
And I said: Okay, now just let me run interference for you. Don’t talk back to anybody. Let me do it.
So I went to Mark Allen and I said: I’d like to see if we can get Sleeper back.
And he said: Well he better behave himself.
I said: Okay, he’ll behave himself.
And that started the I’m Coming Clean on Extraterrestrials. And that ran 250 pages. He had the most views, the most posts of any other thing. I mean it was just an enjoyable... Everybody’d get up every day to see what, you know, the answers were to some of the questions.
K: So, is this stuff still up there?
J: Yeah. I believe so. And, you know, people... It eventually got very few insults. Of course, you know, you’re always getting the guy who comes on and says: This looks like a whole load of horse pucky to me, you know and I’d handle it. I’d always get on there first thing in the morning and handle the guys so Sleeper wouldn’t have to do it.
It was great up until the very end. I mean, even at the very end, it was wonderful. And we had a LOT of fun with it.
And then, along with that, he wrote a blog called: What It’s Like to Spend a Day with an Extraterrestrial. And it’s the most fascinating space story you’ve ever read. And he said at the beginning, he said...I forget exactly what he said. He says: This is written as a screenplay, but believe it or not, every word of it is true.
And it’s about going to Uranus and the people that live on Uranus. And what the buildings look like. It’s absolutely fascinating. So I think Sleeper is 110% genuine. And, you know, if it proves he’s not, I’ll be shocked beyond all possible belief, because everything he says is dead on.
And, you know, when I talk about... And he’s taught me a lot of stuff. Because, you know, in the last few years and people ask me: Well, what’s it all about? Well I don’t know... maybe the Grays are selling our souls, or, you know, doing the... harvesting us. I was wrong. They’re here to do a job.
And Sleeper’s the one that told us - and he puts this all throughout - he says: Just try and live your life without envy, hate, and greed. Love your family. He says that’s the only way you’re going to move on. And you have to keep coming back to Earth, you know, and doing this until you learn how to do it right. And when you learn to do it right, then you get to go out and play with the adults.
So Sleeper’s the one that, you know... And when I started out... It’s really interesting to see the general transformation because, you know, in the beginning he says... People would say: Is John Lear right? Are there cities and people on the moon? And: No, no. There’s nobody up there. And at the end he said: Yeah, John Lear’s right. There are cities and people on the Moon.
It was really a neat transformation. It took a while to do, for him to come out, but it was really cool.
K: That’s great.
(continued from Part 1 and Part 2)
(continued in Part 4)