This page is a reformatted version of the original Project Camelot publication.
Flying into the Sun with John Lear
A video interview with John Lear
Las Vegas, August 2006
Shot, edited and directed by Kerry Cassidy and Bill Ryan
Kerry Cassidy: We were ushered into John’s amazing study. He’s got televisions all over the wall. He’s got photos of airplanes, celebrities, his family...
Bill Ryan: Here we see a photograph of Area 51. This is a real photograph, a high resolution photograph, about 4 feet long, an amazing picture taken from what I believe was called Freedom Ridge. This has now been closed to public access but somebody took a lot of care taking some incredible photos.
And this is something that really captivated my interest. This is the F-19 which is supposed not to exist. John insists that this is flown covertly by the Navy...
Kerry: ...and what would seem to be the planes he loves, the planes he’s flown. He’s a very mysterious man. He has so many top secret contacts you don’t really know what he’s actually flown and what he’s just put on the wall because he loves the look of it.
Bill: Here’s a picture of the moon. It’s about 3 foot by 2 foot. It’s very high resolution and, in John’s own words, this is before it was airbrushed by NASA. And here...
What happened was as soon as we sat down was that John immediately started talking about not the three astronauts that were killed in the fire on the Apollo launch pad on January 27th, 1967, but four astronauts. There was a 4th astronaut whose existence has never been admitted by NASA. The whole thing has been covered up for very specific reasons... and here's John to tell his story.
The 4th Apollo Astronaut / The Secret Astronaut Corps
John Lear: It’s the best kept secret, I mean the best. Now figure all the guys in Mission Control... they were all like between 25 and 35. It’s been 40 years, so now they’re between 65 and 75, so a lot of them are still living. Now, I don’t know whether they keep up with what’s going on.
Kerry Cassidy: You’re saying they knew what happened?
J: Oh, absolutely. I mean, they were all there. They heard. I don’t know if you’ve seen my stuff on the internet about...
J: ...what I assume Gus Grissom said: “OK assholes, you killed us, we’re dead, the fire could have been prevented and you didn’t do it.” He had a long time to say that and all the Apollo records, all this stuff, the accident stuff, and a lot of things happened and the emails that I’ve gotten from Clark on it, you know, are very circumspect, very careful about what he says. But in my mind, he’s been trying, totally, to tell what happened, without saying so in so many words. And basically what I asked him was, “What was the name of the fourth astronaut?” And he never gave it to me, but I found out from other sources who it was. So…
K: Are you at liberty to say?
J: No, and the reason is because I want somebody to come to me and say, ”I know who it was,” and then say the name.
K: Wow, Cool. If we think we know, we could email you, maybe?
J: Absolutely. So what’s so interesting about... the reason they couldn’t talk about the 4th astronaut... and of course, when the fire happened NSA cordoned off everything for 45 minutes while they took that body out. And then they opened it up and then that’s when the official investigation started. Read through all the scenarios. You can see where that 45 minutes fit into there, where they took that body out. Now the reason they didn’t want anyone to know about the body is because he was part of the secret astronaut corps. So… now, if anybody had found out about that body, they would have wondered... who was he, what was his name, what did he do? How come he wasn’t listed here? It would have exposed the entire cover-up. So that’s why they couldn't ....
K: So that secret astronaut corps was a huge secret. I interviewed Gary McKinnon and he tapped into that.
J: He was telling us all about it! I don’t know why people don’t put that together!
K: Yeah, that’s beautiful, that’s beautiful.
J: Gary’s got the whole story there. It was so interesting that Gary would come out at the same time that I uncovered the 4th astronaut.
K: Oh, really? At the same time?
J: Well, it was the same timeframe, plus or minus a couple of months. So, Gary…. boy, I’d sure like to talk to that guy. He talks about the non-terrestrial officers and… I mean, the story just fits together. We are so frigging dense, you know, if we can’t put that together.
K: (Laughs) Absolutely. So we also want to talk a little bit about Dulce? And what you know about Dulce? And I know that people are saying, you know, the Bennewitz story just didn’t happen. And then I know that you confirmed that it did, that Bennewitz was correct.
J: He was, and I got into that when I first got into this UFO deal. I ended up in Crestone, Colorado with Linda Howe and there was about 10 of us there. Somebody had donated a condo in Crestone that had been used by the Aspen Institute for their get-togethers and studies. And we met for three or four days there and talked about what’s going on, what should we do, about the state of Ufology and how each one could contribute. And I ended up leaving there and driving with Linda... and, oh, while we were there, Tom Adams... Do you know who Tom is?
J: He was one of the chargers on weird UFO stuff, mutilations, all that stuff in 1987, ‘88. He ran, put out that flyer called “Stigmata.” It was really something. So anyway, he handed me a note. He said, “John, somebody called me from Las Vegas. And you might want to follow this up because I can’t do it.”
And… it was a hand-written note about a place called Dulce and the person knew somebody that worked there and talked about Dulce. And the thing I remember about the note was it says, “Hallways, down hallways that went on forever.” Boy, this captured my imagination. So anyway, I go with Linda Howe. We go down to Albuquerque and we look up Ernie Edwards and we talk with Ernie Edwards.
K: Is he still alive, by the way?
J: You know, I don’t know. But he was so forthright and, to me, so honest. He said he believed Bennewitz. You know, he talked about during that time when our radar was shut down for a long period. And I said, ”What do you think happened?” And he said, “I think we brought a black ship through there and they didn’t want it on radar.” And I said, “How can you, a colonel – an acting colonel in the Air Force – say something like that?” And he said, “That’s what I believe.”
So anyway, and then we talked about all kinds of stuff and then Linda and I went down to… drove down to Roswell, and that was an interesting trip. We’re driving down to Roswell, and we’re about 10 miles north of Corona and here comes this A-7, just coming down and buzzing us and everything. And I looked at her and said, “Linda, how can this be happening to us?” I know those A-7s. They’re part of the F117A Stealth Fighter squadron up at Tonopah. Anyway, we turn off at Corona, and we go over this little road, then a dirt road over towards the main road that comes down from the highway to Roswell. We get just before the turnoff that goes down to Mac Brazel’s ranch, and we’re bumping along and here’s one dead cow and then another dead cow, then another dead cow...
K: Oh my god...
J. I mean, there’s 30 dead cows there. So we go over to the dead cows and there’s no obvious sign of mutilation. So we go on the road down toward Mac Brazel, what used to be his ranch, and talk to the farmer there and he said, “Yeah, well, we don’t know what happened. We contacted the state veterinarian’s office about [this particular disease, whatever it was].” Anyway, later Linda contacted someone who found out, no it couldn’t have been that disease because there would have been a 50 mile cordon around there. So that was just one of the little interesting things. So then we went down and we talked with Clifford Stone, who I know.
K: Oh… do you.
J: Then I went back up...
K: So Clifford Stone, does he know about the Dulce situation as well?
J: Oh yeah. Clifford, he knows everything. So then I went out... I’m thinking, I’m trying to remember whether I went and stayed at Bennewitz’s house before this happened or after, but at some point I went and spent two days at his house with him and his wife. I listened to their story, spent a lot of time with them, looked at all his pictures, all the stuff showing flying saucers taking off in the Manzano Weapons Storage area, and landing, you know. They were great 8x10 prints. A guy named Chris Lambright had them last that I knew. I was going to steal them from Chris but I gave them back to him. I have one or two 4x5s of those.
K: Oh, do you?
J: (nods yes) Anyway, and then I left Bennewitz and he gave me the big X-ray of the little thing that the girl had in her neck and that I gave to him while I was there and I don’t know what he ever did with it. But anyway, I end up in Dulce, call up Gabe Valdez, say I’m here, he says: “Now, I’ve got patrol tonight between 10:00 and 6 in the morning. You want to go with me?” I said, “Yeah.” So he comes over and I say, “I’m John Lear.” And he says, “I know who you are. I remember you were here 20 years ago in a Lear jet.” And I said “Really?” He said: “Yeah, you brought in steaks for Dean Martin and his girlfriend.” And I remember, yeah, I was flying charter. He jogged my memory. I had been chartered out of Van Nuys to bring in fresh steaks and Dean Martin’s girlfriend to a movie that Dean was filming in Dulce, and Gabe remembered me from that.
K: That’s amazing.
J: So we got in his car and that was the most interesting eight hours winding around on these little roads. It was black as heck, you know, and we talked about Bennewitz, Ernie Edwards... ah, what’s the guy’s name... Doty, Moore, the whole thing. That was just really an interesting drive. We stopped and had some green chili at this little Mexican place. Anyway, I got some sleep the next day and then I had this rented car and I tried to go up the Archuleta Mesa because what I wanted to do was see the spot where the nuclear craft had crashed, where Bennewitz said it crashed, because Gabe said, “As far as I know, it did. It was obvious. You could see the tree that it hit. We found a government pen up there. There was all kinds of evidence that it happened.” But it was in the winter and I had this 2-wheel drive and I tried to go up this back road up to the mesa and I nearly went off into the canyon, so I never got up there.
K: So that wasn’t, like, guarded at that time?
J: No. I don’t think it is today.
K: Oh really? That’s interesting…
J: …I don’t know. I can show you the place where I went to go up there. Anyway, I got back to Vegas and made contact with Bruce and this person tells me the whole thing about.... was his name Castello? What was his last name? The guy who worked at Dulce?
K: Yeah, that sounds right.
B: There’s Castello, and there’s Schneider. They both came out on the public record.
J: We talked for days, weeks, months. And this person gave me pencil drawings of either what she had seen in the video or what Castello had described to her. Those ended up in what were the Dulce papers. Those were my drawings. As I mentioned on some thread the other day, the Dulce papers text is posted on the internet and that’s what I typed from what the person Castello told. That’s my typewriter. That typewriter’s out in the garage. It’s an IBM, what they call Executive that had proportional spacing ...
J: And, you know, those were my drawings. I made ink drawings from the pencil drawings. I still have the pencil drawings. I think the ink drawings I gave to Val. I haven’t seen them around but they may be around, I don’t know. I have so many files out in the garage, legal files, four drawer cabinets, two or three just full of this stuff.
K: Now, why do you think you’re left alone? Why do you think you know so much, number one. And why do you think that the government leaves you alone?
J: They don't bother anybody with second hand information. They got Phil because he was there and I will forever rue the day for not giving Phil Schneider enough attention, because he was right here, he sat right here and told me his story. And it’s not that I didn’t believe it. It’s that, you know, it’s yeah, well, maybe, you know. And it’s too bad because he did have the story and I wish I had given him more time than I did. And that happened with another person I didn’t give that much attention to: Uhouse, Bill Uhouse. He came here years ago and told me all that stuff. And there’s a guy I didn’t believe until later when that, what’s his name? The S-4 guy?...
K: You’re talking about Dan?
J: Dan!... until I sat here and watched two or three hours of the tapes, and, I thought, you know, that guy’s been there. Nobody can make that stuff up.
J: The Dan Burisch story is simple but it’s complex. He was there. He did work there. I listened to George Knapp the other day. I read his stuff on ATS and he is so down on Dan Burisch. It’s unfortunate.
K: Did you see my interview with Dan? I just did an interview with him. It’s posted right now. You should take a look at it. It’s actually almost two and a half hours of intense testimony.
J: .... describe Area 51 and S-4. There’s no question in mind that he was there. But there’s something that’s happening to Dan, something they’re doing with him, and it all fits into Project Serpo.
K: You think so?
J: I think that, you know, it’s a big long-range disinformation program. But the bottom line is Burisch was up there, he worked up there, and it’s really interesting. It’s too bad people, you know, when they look at these stories, it’s either right or it’s wrong.
J; You can’t know that there’s some parts that are correct and some parts can be disinformation.
J: They want it left, right, bad, good. It’s too bad. But George Knapp, I’ve known him for years. He’s got some good ideas, he’s done some tremendous work but he always seems to be about three years behind me. It takes a while to understand, to get into this stuff.
How John got into UFO Research
K: Well, how did you get into research? Because you were a pilot. You had a lot of other things going on, but what was the trigger that really got you deep into this stuff?
J: I said that on the internet I told what happened. I was across town with a friend of mine named Al Newall. We were shooting buddies together. We met in those days... IPSIC was a big international practical shooting congress and we spent a lot of time together. And I was over at his house and there was a book on the table called Missing Time by Budd Hopkins. I picked this thing up and I said, “This is kind of interesting.” See, I’d always been kind of interested in saucers, but not that much. It turns out my dad was right there. I mean, my mom had a crush on Hoyt Vandenberg, one of the MJ-12. He was at the house. So was Jimmy Doolittle. Dad was on the board of the Lovelace Clinic. Randy Lovelace was a surgeon in Wright Patterson when the Roswell thing happened. They sent him to Albuquerque to form the Lovelace Institute. The Lovelace Institute was where they did the autopsies of the bodies. I mean, the whole group was, you know, my dad, Jimmy Doolittle, Hoyt Vandenberg, all those guys were together.
K: Oh my god… Is your dad still alive?
J: No, he died in 1978.
J: He used to talk about this all the time but not in too much detail. He went down to Bogota in 1953 and made an announcement that he thought UFOs were real and made a thing and of course, MJ-12 came down on Bill – “You can’t say this stuff.” “Well I didn’t tell anything more than anybody else did.” “Yeah, but Bill, you can’t do it.” Now, apparently he was into the antigravity stuff. There’s a video floating around, 3 minutes on the internet, that shows my dad giving a lecture, with my mom standing behind him, with pictures of saucers on the blackboard at the Monson Institute to a group of scientists.
J: There is also more in that video that shows scientists working on balsa wood and tissue, things of UFOs, doing I don’t know what, but there’s a calendar and it’s obvious that somebody is trying to tell us something. On the calendar, days are x’d, marked off. And it’s obvious that whoever made this videotape is telling us something important, that something important was being developed or had to be developed. So...
K: So you saw this book on this table of your friend...
J: Yes, Missing Time. So I picked it up and I read it and it just absolutely hit me: This stuff is real. It’s real. It’s going on right now. So I’m thinking this is like ‘85 or something. At the exact same time we had a reunion of southeast Asia pilots here in Las Vegas and I ran into one of the Ravens. You know who the Ravens were: sheepdipped guys that flew in Laos. Greg Wilson was a Raven and I got to talk to him. “Hey, where you been?” You know. He says, “I was at Bentwaters.” “Were you there in1980?” He said, “I was there. I didn’t see it land but I know the guys who did.” I said, “You mean it’s real?” He said, “Yeah John, it’s real.”
So then at that exact time I ended up, I was based, in New York for this airline, and I called Budd Hopkins and I said, “I’d like to talk to you.” “OK.” I came back from a trip in Europe that was crazy. I had my big suitcase and my flight bag and something else and instead of going to the apartment I lived at and dropping it all off I went to Budd’s house. So I ring the doorbell and he opens it up and he says, “John Lear?” “Yeah.” He says, “What’s all that?” He was afraid I was going to come in and move in with him!
So anyway I spent the evening with him and he did a regression. And he said, ”You can’t be this interested and not be involved.” And he didn’t find anything, but anyway that started my adventures with Budd Hopkins.
All this all happened at the same time. It was... those were crazy years.
K: So you know Bill Cooper. You seem to have known just about everybody who was anybody at the time.
J: Yeah. I was working Paranet at the time. Jim Spicer ran Paranet. I put my hypothesis on Paranet. Then Bill Cooper called and said, “I can vouch for – I forget what he said, 50 per cent, or 100 per cent of what John Lear says” and so I invited Bill Cooper up. He came up, we talked and he told me... At those times Bill was totally sane and rational. He told me that he was the guy at Pearl Harbor who set up the camera and got the documents out of the safe for the briefings of the high level Navy guys who’d go through. Five years later he’s an intelligence officer giving the briefing himself! He wasn’t! He was just the guy in the office that set up the projector, and he did have the key to the safe. He did read all that stuff. But later he got what we call “UFO disease.” And UFO disease is something that we get... we are just so in demand as speakers and we’ve already told whatever we know, so now we got to make up a little more to keep the interest. Being in demand like that is, it’s addictive, so you make up a little more and that’s called UFO disease and that’s what happened to Bill. He started making stuff up.
Bob Lazar and Area 51
J: About this time, Bob... I met Bob here in the summer of 1988.
K: Bob Lazar?
J: Yeah. Bob sat right with Gene Huff. Gene Huff had called me and said, “Hey, can I get a copy of your UFO stuff?” And I said, ”Gene, I’m out of it, my wife’s going nuts.” I said, “I’ve just dropped everything.” So he said, “Well, in case you ever need an appraisal on your house maybe we can work a deal out.” I said, “You’re an appraiser?” At that time I needed an appraisal to get a second [mortgage], because I was totally out of money. He said, “Yeah.” So I said, “Well listen, I’ll give you all my stuff if you’ll appraise my house.” And from that day on he’s always held that against me because he had no idea how big this place was.
J: He claims he got the short end of the deal. But when he came over, the guy that was holding the measuring tape was Bob Lazar.
K: Oh my god…
J: And so, I’m looking over his resume... when I’m talking he handed it to me. That’s when I saw, you know, the degree from MIT and the degree from Cal Tech. But all that stuff, along with Bennewitz’s and some of his photos, were stolen.
K: Out of your house?
J: Yeah. Out of here. I mean, they spent... who knows how much time they spent in this office digging stuff out of my files.
J: All kinds of stuff was missing, as was at Bob’s house. The people we knew at, it wasn’t called Sprint, the telephone company, you know, found Bob’s house was wired. This house was wired.
K: Do you comb this house now? Do you comb your house for bugs and things like that, or do you just not bother anymore?
J: No. I don’t bother. But the telephone guy here that was sent out used to do a lot of switching around of phones for my teenage daughters. So one day he comes in about this time that I’m telling you about. He says, “John, your phone’s tapped.” I said, “Yeah, no kidding.” He said, “You know, I’d like to find out where it’s tapped.” I said, “Hey, be my guest.” So he comes back about half an hour later and says, “It’s not down Monroe, or Hollywood or Bonanza. It’s farther than that.” He said, “I’m going to find out.” I said, “You know, you don’t have to. I know it’s tapped. Don’t worry about it.” He said, “No, I’d like to find out.” So he comes back the next day and says, “John, your phone is tapped at the mainframe.” He said, “I went to my boss and told him about it and he said, ‘If you want to keep your job, you keep your mouth shut.’”
J: He said, “So I’m keeping my mouth shut but I’m telling you. It’s tapped at the mainframe and they don't have the paperwork.” He said, “I looked for paperwork to authorize a tap like that and they don’t have it.”
So anyway, I meet Bob. We talk. He thinks me and Gene are totally nuts. He said he worked at Los Alamos. He said if there had been anything about UFOs, he would have known. He said, “You guys are crazy,” and he sat there rolling his eyes at all this stuff we were talking about. So over the next few months we started giving him information and one of the things we gave him was where we thought the alien was held at…
J: …at Los Alamos: YY-II. And it turns out... we told him some other stuff, I forget what it was, but there were three things we told him and he confirmed all three things. He didn’t confirm that there was an alien at YY-II but he did confirm that it was a mail stop and that it was absolutely secret, I mean, one of the big secrets. So he decided to see if he could get a job up at area 51. So he called Dr. Teller. And I thought I was there for the phone call. I may not have been, I might have been there when Dr. Teller called him back, but I remember Bob saying… ah, Dr. Teller saying: “Do you want to work here at Livermore or do you want to work in Las Vegas?” And Bob said, “I want to work at Area 51.” And Teller says, “Let me see what I can do.”
So then that was like in November of ‘88 and I remember Bob going for interviews at EG&G and he told us exactly what they asked in the interviews. And it was very very technical, and he said he did really good in all of them because he really knew... He was really proud of himself. And he said in the second interview, the first question was: “What’s your relationship with John Lear, and what do you know about him?” And Bob said, talking to me, he said, “I told them that I do know John Lear, I go over to this house, I think he sticks his nose in places where it doesn’t belong.” He said, “What I didn’t tell them is I also like to stick my nose in places it doesn’t belong.”
So then the next thing I know, is, I say December 6th... it could have been before or after, I don’t remember... but this table wasn’t here, there were two chairs there, and he came in. It was at night. It was about 7 or 8 o’clock and he sat down. I was writing checks, and he said, “John, I saw a disk today.” And I looked up and said, “What?” And he said, “I saw a disk today.” I said, “Theirs or ours?” He said, “Theirs.” I said, “You went to Area 51?” I said, “What are you doing here? Why didn’t you find out what’s going on and then tell me about it?” He said, “No, you’ve taken so much crap over this thing that I tell you I saw it. It’s all real.”
So we spent a couple hours here. And he said, “I will answer your questions. I can’t volunteer information.” He made me ask questions. Then we went outside, stood outside and looked up at the stars and I said, “Well, if I want to go to Zeta Reticuli, do I go [gesturing in different directions]… which way do I go?” He said, “This way.” [gesturing to the right] and was saying how they take off and he had an explanation for why they had to go to the right first or whatever.
Anyway, that went on for several months. He’d come over whenever he got back and tell me what he saw. One night he comes in and sits down. After the first night we didn’t talk in here anymore. I forget what the trigger was, but we didn’t discuss anything. So he’s sitting there like this, and giving me the eye, so then we walk out that door, out by the pool, and out by the stable, and as we walk by, Marilee, who is always suspicious of everyone, asks, “Where you guys going?” And I say “We’re just going to go out back and talk,” and so we went out in the back alleyway there and I said: “What what what what???”
He says, “John, you’ll never know what it’s like to see your first alien.” I said, “You saw him? He’s alive?” He said, “Yep.” And he told me the circumstances, that he was being led down a corridor, escorted by guards on each side. I have a drawing here of when he told me that. What he said... he said there was a door. He said it had a regular square window about 12 inches by 12 inches with wire going through and inside he saw the back of the Gray, standing with his back towards him, and talking to two scientists who were looking down at this man in their lab coats. And the stories go on...
K: He was sort of... his house was trashed, he basically left the government’s employ. I mean, he was on the run wasn’t he?
J: ...Then it becomes he’s going back and forth up there and so March 21st I’m over at his house and he’s designing a Doggy Death Ray. And the Doggy Death Ray is because the dogs, Marilee’s dogs, are getting in our flowers and he’s going to design a little amplifier with a high-pitched sound which would keep them out of there. It’s Tuesday the 21st. And I remember watching TV. And it was the day they sent up a missile from a boat and it did loop-de-loops. And Bob said, “They’re going to test fly tomorrow night. Do you want to go see?” And I said, “Yeah, but where can we go?” He said, “I know a back road to the test site without getting on illegal property. You can see it.” I said, “Great.”
So the next day he and Gene and his wife Jackie, yeah, there was 4 of us, get in my motorhome in the front here. And this was March 22nd. We drive out to Alamo and turn off the road to Rachel, and we’re almost up that hillway and the transmission went out. “It’s at night,” he said, “so we’ve got to be there at sunset because that’s when they test fly.” So Gene Huff hitchhiked from where we were stuck, back down to Ash Springs, got a couple cans of transmission oil, brought ‘em back up and poured ‘em in and then we continued out. And so we got out there just a little after dark. And we went down the back road into Groom Lake. We went down maybe half way and we pulled in this little area. And I took out the telescope, set it up. Bob had the video camera, he set it up. And we started looking. Then we saw it. It was about 9 o’clock. A light comes up that starts going this way and that way and everything and I’m trying to get this scope with an 8 inch diameter lens focused on the UFO. And of course there’s no way; that thing is too big and too cumbersome. Well anyway, at one point the saucer stopped and I got it nailed in. I said, “I got it! I got it! I got it!” The saucer was about maybe 30, 35, 40, maybe 45 degrees angled. It was yellow and radiating something off it. And I said, “I see it! I see it! Gene, quick take a look.” And so as I stepped away my foot hooked the tripod and it got out of alignment so Gene didn’t see it. It was making a descent behind the mountain (gestures straight down).
I’ll show you if we have time here. I have the tape that’s labeled March 22nd and we videotaped all that was going on. Unfortunately the videotape was sitting on the bumper while all this was going on but we videotaped afterwards, the conversation about seeing it. Anyway., the next Wednesday night .. they always tested on Wednesday nights and at sunset because they determined that was the time with least traffic on that road so that people wouldn’t accidentally see the saucer. So the next night was March 29th and I was on a trip with America Transair in Cleveland and that was when I called Bob Tuesday night and I said, “You know, I’m in Cleveland and I won’t be able...” I said, “What are you guys doing?” He said, “We’re going fishing.” And I said, “Ah cool. I wish I could go.” That was the night he took George Knapp and Jim Taliani. Jim Taliani worked at Tonopah Test Range. And it was the week after that he got fired because when this tape got out that George Knapp shot they could hear Jim‘s voice saying, “Oh neat! Oh neat!” And they called him in and said you’re it. It may not have been the next week, but it was soon.
Then the third Wednesday was April 6th. That was when me, Bob, Gene, Bob’s wife and her sister rented a car because the motor home was out and something else was out so we had to actually rent a car. And that’s when we had the Geiger counter and all the video stuff in the trunk. We went up there, got all ready, we’re driving in. I said, “Come on, we don’t need to go any further. Let’s stop here.” “No, no. Let’s get closer, closer.” Bob’s wife’s sister was driving. And that’s when we saw... You know I said at one time that it was four cars, maybe it was 2, but whatever, there was headlights in front of us, and I said, “We’ve got to get out of here.” So I told... I forget what her name is.... turn around carefully, because we’re in sand here and we don’t want to get caught.
So we turned around to haul our asses out of there and it was obvious we weren’t going to get to the highway before they caught us. So we stopped. Bob says, “Look I can’t afford to get caught. I’m taking my gun (he had a 9mm) and I’m going out into the desert.” He said, “When they leave I’ll come back.” So we stop, he goes out into the desert, I take the telescope and start setting it up and they skid to a stop. And they’re all standing around with machine guns at port arms and... actually I ran up the vehicle and put my hands on the top of it and said, “What are you guys doing here, what’s going on?” They said they need to see my ID. And I said, “I don’t understand. What are you guys chasing us through the desert for?” They said, “Well what are you running for?”
And so things calmed down. We showed our drivers license. They said, you know, they made some calls and said, “Look, we can’t kick you out of here because it’s BOM land, but we can make it awfully uncomfortable if you stick around here. So make your own choice.” So they left. We waited about 15 minutes. The trunk was open because I had gotten the telescope out, so we were kind of blinded. We had no idea that all these guys did was go about 100 yards down the road, turn around, set up all their cameras and parabolic recording equipment and were recording everything that goes on. Bob comes out of the desert with his 9mm. He says, “You know, it’s a good thing they didn’t make any false moves. I would have blasted them to smithereens.” So we talked about 15 minutes and packed everything up and, you know, we go out and hit the highway and there’s the Lincoln County sheriff, all the sirens, red lights and everything. They get us out, you know, hands up, hands against the car, then after about 15 - 20 minutes I made the comment that Bob will never ever forgive me for, when the sheriff says, “I’ll need to see licenses,” and I said, “Mine’s in the trunk.” Of course everything was in the trunk, including the gun, the Geiger counter, all the video equipment and everything. We never let them in the trunk. He said, “All I want to know is why there are 5 people in this car now and at the test site there were only 4. And where’s the gun? That’s all I want to know.”
And we spent a good hour hemming and hawing and at the end of the hour he gets a call and he says, “OK.” His name was Lafrene, Sheriff Lafrene. He said, “I don’t know why I’ve been told to do this, but I’ve been told to let you guys go. Now it doesn’t make any sense to me, but those are my orders. I want you to get in that car and I don’t want to see you ever around here again.” So we left, driving into town. Now it’s like 11 or 12 o’clock. We discussed what was going on.
And the next day Bob gets a call from his boss .. I can’t remember what his name is. He says, “Bob, don’t go out to the airport. I’m going to pick you up.” They drove Bob up to Indian Springs which is the head of all the area test sites. And they literally took him out of the car with a gun in his ear and they said, “Bob, now, we gave you your clearance and told you the secret. That didn’t mean you were supposed to tell all your friends about the flying saucers. Now do you want to work here or not?” And Bob was noncommittal. They had brought the guards that had caught us and who had talked to us, down, to prove that we were there and Bob was noncommittal. And a few days later he said, “I’m not going back to work there.” And we said, “Why?” And he said, “Because the last time I went on that 737...” he said, “I can remember going up the boarding ramp...
K: Oh no...
J: .... and I can remember coming back down the boarding ramp but I cannot remember anything that went on after that, or between that.” He said, “I don’t want to work under those conditions. I’d rather not work under those conditions.”
J: He said, “I know what’s going on and it’s great but I don’t want to work under those circumstances.” So that’s why he never went back.
K: OK. That’s fabulous stuff. I have a question. We met a guy that said that underground in Area 51 that they .. I don’t know if the guy was whacked out or what... but he said they have piles of, like, cocaine, and they’re drugging people to get them to work there, basically. They fly them in, they give them drugs, they give them women... Do you know anything about that?
J: No, but I have every reason to believe that’s true. I mean, the underground facilities up there are so enormous, they’re so big, they stretch on forever, they have many levels. I have a friend of mine at the Goldmine. The people that originally ran that mine, one of the guys is in jail up at Winnemaka, and one of the guys that’s in there is a security guard and he tells them.... and the reason a security guard from Area 51 is in there is because he started to talk. And he’s in there for life. He tells... what could they do to him now... that it goes on forever.
There is no doubt in my mind. You see the stuff on Area 51 and they say, “Oh, I know guys that work there and they said there’s no underground.” Of course. Because, you know, there’s maybe 1900 people who work above ground. There’s no reason for them... When you work at Area 51 they don’t give you a briefing and say, “Now don’t tell anybody about the aliens we’ve got up here.” Guys who work on airplanes, mechanics, they have no reason to know that stuff. Security doesn’t work that way.
K: Is it your understanding that Bennewitz was basically messed with through mind control?
J: (nods head yes) Bennewitz was on to some very good information, real information. He’s the one that discovered Dulce. He’s the one that knew about the black ship, the Grays, the Archuleta Mesa. He’s the one that knew about stuff, Manzano Weapons Storage. Doty was sent to disinform him along with Bill Moore, to make him look like an idiot.
K: And you knew Bill Moore, right? Is that right? Because Bill Moore has kind of gone black. He’s not out in public really right now. I guess he was messed with a lot. But he knows a lot as well, wouldn’t you say?
K: What about Serpo? I understand on ATS you basically said Serpo is disinfo in general but that yes, we obviously sent astronauts...
J: We sent a team. We did send a team. They went to Zeta Reticuli. There was three of them. That could be misinformation... who knows? Maybe there was five of them.
J: But the problem with Serpo as we’re seeing now and with Burisch is that there’s males and females and that’s not right.
K: What do you mean males and females?
J: From Zeta Reticuli.
K: You mean, aliens that are male and female?
J: ...that are male and female
K: Are you saying there aren’t?
J: No. They are cybernetic organisms. They, the guys who made those guys, which they call all the J-Rods and the Grays, whatever, those guys are just cybernetic organisms. They come here. Their job is to see if this farm... I used to call it an experiment, it’s not an experiment ... it’s a farm, a soul farm... if things are going along fine. I used to think it was evil. It’s not. We’re just developing and those guys, the Grays, are just here monitoring, seeing everything’s going OK. They pick up kids when they’re 3 to 4; they pick them up when they’re 7 to 8; then once they’re 13 to be sure everything’s OK. That’s all their job is.
K: Genetic manipulation, in other words, upgrading the race.
J: Right now we’re arrogant murderers, thieves, you know, and we learn to grow out of it. When we grow out of that we’ll be able to go and play with everybody else in the universe, which is a great big wonderful place.
K: So where do you get your certainty from?
J: My what?
K: Your certainty about what you know? You know what I mean? Is it because you’ve talked to so many people who’ve been in deep?
K: But have you yourself had any ET interaction that you know of?
J: Probably but I don’t have the slightest memory. The only thing, you know, that ever happened was when I was 9 or 10 years old. I used to go down to... on Saturday mornings... to Brownie Brown’s Dance Studio where I took tumbling, ballet, and tap dancing. It would end at 12. I’d walk outside the door to Ocean Park Boulevard, get on the bus and go back to my house at 222 14th Street. It was about 30 minutes. So one day I get on the bus after dancing school and I get to where I’m getting off at my house 30 minutes later. And I remember stepping off, down the stepway on the bus and looking up at the driver and I was so shocked. I said... I couldn’t say anything for a minute, then I said, “Didn’t I just take this bus home?” And he looked at me... it was just the strangest... thing... It’s gone.... time. Who knows where it went?
K: How much time was that?
J: Ah, probably, well, who knows? I don’t remember being conscious of one hour, two hours. It could have been an hour or so.
K: Do you feel that the Grays are malevolent?
K: OK. And are you aware that we are basically kind of building a shield around the planet, to bounce off, you know, basically to have a war with aliens and that sort of thing?
J: It’s hilarious. I mean, our government is so arrogant, you know. They know so little. Here they are, they’re building... they think they’re going to build a shield against the Grays or whoever. There may be some kind of a war going on, but the basic theme, basically what Earth is all about, is development of soul. There’s billions of us in the universe. Billions just like Earth in various stages of development. Some of them are not as advanced as we are, and some are more advanced. But it’s all about the soul, our nature, not being such murderous arrogant thieves. Going on, we have to develop.
The sun is not a series of thermonuclear explosions. The sun is an electromagnetic sphere and what it does, it reacts with the electromagnetics of certain planets, all the planets in the solar system, which enables them to have atmospheres and environments just like Earth. Mercury is not hot enough to melt lead, it’s just like Earth. Neptune is not a big gas giant, it’s just like Earth. The only big gas giant in our solar system is NASA.
I’m just talking now about what they’re trying to feed us now on Project Serpo and the reason is I believe that there is no way the government can hide any more the Grays. They have to come up with a story. But since they don’t know who they are or what they’re doing, they just want to say, “Yeah, they’re from Zeta Reticuli. Yeah we’ve been there. Yeah it’s a mom and pop deal. We played soccer with them. Yes. It’s no big deal....”
K: Except that they were doing genetic engineering and they took the parts of one astronaut, the body parts, and were cloning him. That’s part of the Serpo story as well.
J: I didn’t realize that.
K: Yeah, a lot of people miss that.
J: Which astronaut?
K: One of the astronauts that died. On Serpo....
J: Oh, oh, yeah, OK.
K: .... and was basically found to be cloned. And so supposedly they almost started a war over finding they couldn’t do last rites on the body of their fellow astronaut. It’s a great story, but who knows if it’s true.
J: It’s a great story. I may be wrong, but I believe it’s disinformation.
K: But we’ve been to Zeta Reticuli. The root of the story is actually true, as far as you’re concerned, because of what you contact are telling you?
K: Because there are some pretty decent people....
J: I’ve seen... the day is 90 Earth hours long. I haven’t seen that information come up. It’s the 4th planet from Zeta Reticuli 2. So if you’re standing on Reticulum 4 you can see both suns, Zeta 1 and Zeta 2.
K: Wow. Yes, because apparently there are pictures of some things like that.
K: Now are you saying that you don’t believe there are pictures?
J: No there could be, there could be. What do I know?
Bobby Ray Inman, Bob Oeschler, MJ-12
K: Well, you seem to know a hell of a lot! So we’re just trying to get to the root of what you know. What about Bobbie Ray Inman? Do you know what his involvement is?
J: ….he got involved in MJ-12… Remember who Bob Oeschler was? Bob Oeschler was really a neat guy. He charged into this, with me. I mean he stood right there in that door (pointing across the room) and saw some kind of a beam come out of this place back here. We know, or I believe, that this whole mountain is combed with, you know...
K: That’s quite a mountain you have behind you…
K: It’s incredible.
J: We believe it’s all these kind of bases or whatever you call them inside of this thing. Oeschler saw that. Oeschler was the guy and if you haven’t read this story or heard it. You’ve got to read it. He was back east one day, and I went with him, drove around for hours with him when I was flying cargo. I’d get out of my airplane at 10 o'clock at night and we’d drive until 6 in the morning. We did all kinds of crazy things. But Bob one day walked into EG&G and says, “How do I get into the saucer program?” Or something like that.
K: But what’s Bobby Ray Inman got to do with all this?
J: OK. So Bob Oeschler finds Bobby Ray Inman at some public attendance, and goes up to him and says, “How do I get in touch with MJ-12?” And Inman looked at him and says, “Let me see if I can help you.” And so that started the interaction between Bob Oeschler and Bobby Ray Inman.
K: Why was Bobby Ray Inman so helpful?
J: To Oeschler?
K: Yes. Is he sort of like a fan of disclosure, would you say?
J: Yeah. There’s always been part of MJ-12 that wants to disclose and they always get up to the threshold of “Let’s tell the public,” then they always back away, and I don't know why they always back away.
K: That’s really fabulous. We want to thank you.
J: You asked the right questions. I was just waiting to see which direction you were going to take. I’m just telling the story of what happened. That doesn’t mean I’m right, you know. That just means what happened.
J: Zero point energy? I’ve never heard so much bullshit in my entire life. I mean, that is just, if you’ll excuse the expression, crap. I mean it’s not going to happen. It didn’t happen. It won’t happen.
K: Are you familiar with Hal Puthoff?
J: Sure. Fantastic work at Stanford and University of…
K: Well, he’s involved with something to do with zero point…
J: Absolutely, yeah, and he keeps sending all this stuff on zero point energy and...
K: …and you just don't believe it.
J: No. It’s a scam.
K: You think so? You think it’s a scam because scientifically you think it’s a scam or because people have told you, your contacts, are saying it’s a scam?
J: No. I think it and I’ll take the blame if it’s not.
K: What about 2012? You think that’s a scam?
J: Yes. We’re continually in wars. Continually the world’s going to end. It’s to keep us all riled up and worried and everything. All of us just want to go home, we just want to make a living and go home and be with our family and kids. That’s all we want to do. But we’re continually going after the Moslems you know and continually being, you know, this is a threat and this is a threat. If it's not gels and stuff like that then it’s just, you know, it’s just too bad. Those of, you know, hey, it’s all bullshit.
J: [showing a round shiny object: a model of the back-engineered UFO power plant from Area 51] Joe Vananetti made this and it’s just exactly like it was. In here is the 115. And Bob had three of these and they came from Los Alamos. And the government stole two of them and one of them is in a secret place in Vegas. And I thought that me and... there’s only three guys in the world that knew where it was and reading George and stuff on ATS, he claims to know where it was but I don’t know whether he does or not. But that’s the halfscale model and I’ve got the drawing that Bob made for me in February of ‘90, of how it worked. The 115 was bombarded with protons and the heat through a thermionic generator provided the positive voltage to run the ship and then the gravity 'A' wave was drawn off so that they could use it to go travel throughout the universe…