Light at the End of the Tunnel
Ryan (BR): This is Bill Ryan from Project Avalon, and the date is
Tuesday the 20th of July, 2010.
it’s my great privilege to be talking to Paul Hellyer, who many
people listening to this will recognize as the very courageous
ex-Canadian government minister, Minister of Defense in ’63 to
’67, who spoke out in 2005 about the reality of the
extraterrestrial presence, and in so doing, created so much of a
precedent as a very senior and highly respected government figure,
making a very authoritative statement. And it’s always been
mildly surprising to me that that has never actually achieved more
wide coverage in the mainstream media, and this is one of the things,
of course, that I’d love to talk to you about, Paul.
Hellyer (PH): Good to talk to you.
BR: Absolutely. And, just as a suffix to my little introduction there,
want to say that you are a prolific author and you’ve recently
finished writing and published two books which, I believe, are
extremely important. One is called ‘Light at the End of the
Tunnel’ and the other one is called ‘[A] Miracle in
Waiting,’ and I would highly recommend anyone to buy and read
these books. They’re very readable. They cover an enormous
tapestry of material, and I think the common factor has got something
to do with what is at stake for the future of the human race. Would
you say that’s a fair one-line summary?
PH: That’s as good as you can do it in one line, yes. The two
books were published recently. One of them is new, and the other one,
the ‘Miracle in Waiting,’ is really republishing a book
that was published first in 1996, where in the first two paragraphs I
predicted the meltdown that occurred in 2008 – 2009, and said
that it was absolutely inevitable. So it’s republished with
just some very minor changes and my benevolence towards the banking
the other one is entirely new. It is actually my thirteenth book. The
subject, as you suggested, is ‘Light at the End of the Tunnel,’
but the subtitle is ‘A Survival Plan for the Human Species.’
And in it, I set out several things that I think are absolutely
essential if we’re going to keep planet Earth as a hospitable
habitat for the human species, for our grandchildren and their
that we have to do something about global warming. Two,
that we have to change the banking system that controls the destiny
of the world at the present time, and, three,
that people of different religions who have been fighting each other
for millennia stop doing that, stop thinking that they’re
exclusive and the only way to heaven, and start working together to
build a planet where every person would have enough to eat, clean
water to drink and a roof over their head and some clothing and a
little educational opportunity.
things are all tied in together and I start out the book with the
question of global warming. And I found it quite interesting, and
just recently, I was part of a group that was writing letters to the
President of the United States, the Prime Minister of Canada and the
new Prime Minister of Great Britain, to try and get them to radically
and fundamentally change the banking and monetary system in the
world, because this is one of the essentials, absolutely essential,
things that has to be done, if we’re going to save the planet
as the kind of ecosystem that we have enjoyed ourselves.
what I found during the course of that letter-writing campaign was
the extent to which the oil industry has muddied the waters about the
science. And they’re doing to us exactly the same thing as the
tobacco industry did previously. They’re saying, ‘Well,
the science isn’t conclusive.’ Some people say that
tobacco is carcinogenic and some people say it doesn’t [isn’t].
Until there is absolute proof, why... this is a legitimate business
and we’re going to continue to pursue it.
of course, as we now know, looking back, they had proof in their own
files that showed that it was carcinogenic, and that it was poison
and that they were actually producing a product that was very
detrimental to human health. But for decades, in fact, they managed
to fuzz that knowledge by leaking information and by getting
scientists to raise doubts and questions about it, to the point where
they could really go merrily on their way and not have to concern
themselves about that dangerous fact.
now we’re seeing the oil industry do the same thing about
global warming. And I was amazed with the number of callers and
emails, especially from the United States, where they were claiming
that the global warming is just a hoax, and I’ve bumped into
the odd person here in Canada who is, in my opinion, been equally
the first chapter is really on that subject, and I should say that
since I published the book, I've read a book by Dr. James Hansen, a
NASA scientist in the U.S. who I would consider, of all the people I
have read, the best. And anyone who really has doubts on this subject
should try and get a copy of his book, which is called ‘The
Floods of My Grandchildren.’ [Note: the actual title is ‘Storms
of My Grandchildren.’]
it’s not an easy read, but if anyone takes the subject
seriously enough that they say, ‘No, the scientists are wrong
and we don’t have anything to worry about,’ please get a
copy of that book and go through it. And I would be very, very
surprised if, by the time you’re finished, you don’t
reach the absolute conclusion that Dr. Hansen is right, and that we
have very, very little time in which to do something about it.
when I say ‘little time,’ he thinks that we may have
crossed the Rubicon already. But I’m being a little bit
optimistic on that score and say we have about ten years, plus or
minus a year or two, in which to turn it around. Well, of course, as
you know, most of the politicians of the world are talking about 30
or 40 or 50 years before they reduce the kinds of emissions from
burning fossil fuels that are raising the temperature of the Earth so
rapidly. So, there’s a real selling job that has to be done
there in order to get people to take the whole situation seriously
and do something about it.
then, the next point, of course, is what can be done? We have this
huge oil industry. We operate our automobiles and our trucks and our
tractors and our airplanes. They all burn oil as fuels, and people
say, ‘Well, we can build better engines and we can do this and
we can do that, and we can have wind farms to generate electricity.
We can have solar panels,’ and so on. But none of these things
are going to change the situation quickly enough to meet that
ten-year turnaround period that I think should be our goal instead of
a 30 or 40 year timeframe, when I am personally convinced that it
will, in fact, be too late.
this is where we get into the subject that you raised at the outset:
the existence of exotic fuels. In the book I claim that these already
exist. That if one is aware of what is going on in the bowels of the
Earth in Nevada and Arizona and New Mexico, they will know that
somewhere there, U.S. scientists working in conjunction with aliens
from other star systems have developed exotic fuels. I guess a decade
ago, Dr. Michael Wolf, who was one of the best-known scientists who
worked underground there, said that they had developed both cold
fusion, which is quite well known in scientific circles, and also
zero point energy, which is using the energy that exists everywhere
in the cosmos.
we have to go back, now, a few years, I guess, and say, ‘Well,
how did this come about, and why don’t people know about it?’
And you raised that question earlier on. What’s the big secret,
and why is it being held from us? Well, the story goes back many
decades, and usually people tell it as having started with the crash
of an unidentified flying object in Roswell in early July, 1947.
Actually, there were crashes before that, but there was a crash
there, and from that time on, the United States government, through
its armed forces, have been back-engineering the technology that they
found from the visitors’ craft. It has given us a whole range
of things, of course, that are very valuable in our lives, that
include microchips and fiber optics and a whole range of things.
one of the things that is most interesting to people is the question
of energy. How could these craft get to Earth over such vast
distances without having energy forms that we were unfamiliar with?
And without going into that subject in any detail, they are so far
advanced from us technologically, that they were induced or coerced,
when some of them were captured, to work with U.S. scientists in
trying to replicate not only the vehicles that were used to get to
Earth, but also some of the energy sources that are obviously at
this area, it has such a tremendous potential, because I think those
exotic fuels are already in a state where they could be used
commercially. But if they’re not, then I know, from what I have
read and studied about the extraterrestrials, that they would give us
the technology if the United States Air Force would stop shooting at
them, then they would cooperate and work with us in giving us that
technology because they are very concerned about what we are doing to
our planet. They want us to save it, and not to destroy it. And one
of the things that they’re very concerned about is global
warming. There are others, but that is one that concerns them
we have this potential available to us, but most people don’t
even know it exists. A lot of people suspect that there are exotic
fuels, but they have no way of proving that, and it’s going to
be very, very difficult to pry that information out of the people who
guard it so closely. ‘Can be done.’ How could it be done?
Well, ultimately, the United States Congress is going to have to get
BR: Okay, Paul. That’s a wonderful summary. That’s like an
opening chapter to our interview here. And I've got a bunch of
bundled questions that I want to throw back at you, here.
we step back from that scenario that you’ve laid out very
clearly, the words that you used were that those in possession of
this technology guard it closely. And they’re doing this on one
hand, and I fully agree with that of course, and many of the people
listening to this will also be aware of that. And on the other hand,
we look around and we see spaceship Earth being systematically
trashed with not an awful lot of time left, whatever numbers you put
on it. Someone who would be in very strong agreement with that thesis
would be James Lovelock, the founder of the Gaia hypothesis. He also
is concerned that we may have reached some kind of a tipping point.
PH: Yes. I quote him in my book.
BR: Yeah. Regardless of the numbers, clearly we’re in deep
trouble. But why are the people who consider themselves to be in
control of this planet, why, in your view, are they allowing this to
happen? Why are they guarding this? Even if they have free energy
available to them, and I do believe that they certainly have, it
would be quite easy to say, ‘Hey, look what our government
scientists have just discovered. This is wonderful, folks.’ Is
this all got to do with the economy, or is there a larger picture
here whereby some huge crisis is being catalyzed with some purpose
behind that? What are your views on this? You must have spent a lot
of time thinking about it.
PH: I have spent quite a bit of time thinking about it. I don’t
think anybody really knows the whole answer. I know that the secrecy
has existed from the beginning.
had a scientist in Canada, who was sort of in the loop in the early
years of the 1950s, and he claimed that the whole program relating to
the extraterrestrial technology was classified more highly than the
hydrogen bomb. And that, I would say, has been proved conclusively
ever since, and it is alleged, and I believe it to be true, that
there are many aspects of what is being done, even beyond the
knowledge of the President of the United States, and for which he is
not cleared to know what is going on.
it’s an extremely difficult question, and, I guess, originally,
they may have been a little bit concerned about the public reaction
when all of the information finally comes out, bit by bit, as to what
has been going on for the last 60 years. I think, probably more
important for the United States armed forces, was the fear that the
Russians might be doing the same thing at the same time, that they
might have achieved as much, for example, as the Americans themselves
had. This, of course, they have found out not to be true and probably
one reason for the end of the cold war, or our perceived end of it.
I think there was some concern about the religious communities and
the effect it might have if all of this information came out too
soon. And you probably noticed that the Catholic Church, in
particular, has been making statements the last two or three years to
sort of get people ready for information in this area. They have now
said that God’s children exist in other parts of the cosmos,
that we shouldn’t be surprised about this. Quite a liberal
attitude, actually, on this subject in the last few months. And that
may have been part of it. And fear of the economic consequences may
have been part of it.
no one really knows, I think, the answer for sure, because no one
knows who controls this group that I refer to in my book as the
‘cabal.’ There is a shadow government in the United
States, and President Clinton confirmed that at a press conference,
where he was asked why he didn’t expose all of the information
in this area, and he told the reporter that there was a shadow
government and that he didn’t control it.
there is within that shadow government a small group, and how small
and how tough is very hard to say, but they are believed to be sort
of the group that reports to what started out as the MJ-12, when
President Truman set up a very, very highly select group to look at
this area of Ufology and alien technology.
now we’re told that it’s the MJ-36 and that there are
Europeans involved. Well, who are the Europeans and why are they
involved? I don’t know, and I don’t think there are very
many people who do know. But I do know that some of them, at least,
represent the wealthiest, most powerful people in the world.
this brings me back to the beginning, of whether or not they want
clean energy resources to be made public yet, until they’ve had
more time to exploit their trillions of dollars of assets in the oil
industry worldwide, and milk them for all they can before they
finally switch over into the new energy and then try and do the same
that’s the long answer to the question, which is really that,
publicly at least, there is no easy answer, and the U.S. Congress has
to take control and insist on getting the people involved to talk,
and even at the risk of threatening to cut off their funds. And it
has to be the Congress and not the President, because traditionally
it’s been too dangerous for any one person to take on this
role, and I certainly would not advise the President of the United
States at the moment to be the one to insist that it be done.
think it has to be the Congress, who have been providing the funds
over the decades and without doing what they were elected to do, and
that is being able to report to the American people what they were
getting for the funds that were being spent, and what ultimate good
they were going to be to the taxpayers who have footed the bill. So,
that’s where, I think, the action has to start, and the sooner
it starts the better. But we can’t get it started until more
people are talking about it and realize the potential, on the one
hand, and the absolute necessity, on the other hand.
BR: Right. Now, just to backtrack on your own journey, Paul, I believe
it all started when you were given a copy of Colonel Corso’s
book ‘The Day After Roswell,’ is that right?
PH: Approximately right, yes. I had watched the ABC two-hour special,
and a friend by the name of Pierre Juneau had been sending me all
kinds of stuff for two or three years which, for the most part, I
hadn’t read. But there were a few things that came along that
sort of tweaked my interest a little bit, but it was Colonel Corso’s
book that made the difference.
BR: I seem to remember you told Paola Harris in an earlier interview
that, after absorbing the book and being fascinated by it, you
consulted a colleague who was a military general, who you never
named, and he was able to confirm for you that the detail in the book
was true. Is that right?
PH: Yes. Though he wasn’t a colleague, he was someone I had met.
Actually, it was a friend of my nephew and I had been reading the
book. And it was my summertime reading. My nephew went past and asked
me what I was reading. I told him. And he said, ‘Well, I’m
a skeptic.’ And I said, ‘Okay, it’s a free country.
You can be as skeptical as you wish.’ He went home then, and
about two or three days later, he phoned me back and said, ‘Well,
I phoned the General, and when I told him what you were reading, he
said, Every word is true and more. Where can I get a copy of the
book?’ So I told him to get a copy of the book and he could
then, that was really the confirmation that I needed, because I had
already come to the conclusion from the book itself that it was
legitimate. I compared it with the best science fiction I had read,
and I thought to myself, ‘Well, no. I’m familiar with too
many of these people by name and the places, and this could not
possibly be fiction.’ So I am convinced that it, in fact, is
real. But it was the General’s confirmation.
before I decided to actually go public... And I felt very strongly
about it because of the issues involved, the question about
Earthlings taking on people from other stars for size, militarily,
for example, and what it does, the possible risk that’s
involved there, all of these tremendously important issues. And I had
decided that it was important for me to say publicly that there was a
need to disclose what was going on and what was known, and to review
the military’s reaction to the visitors and all of this sort of
thing. So I had met the General at a – he was a retired general
– at an aviation conference.
BR: This is a Canadian general, is it?
PH: No, he’s in the United States Air Force.
BR: United States Air Force, okay.
PH: Yes. So Philip gave me his number and gave him a heads-up that I
would be calling, and when I called him, again, he just said, ‘Every
word is true and more.’ And he spent the next 20 minutes
telling me a bit of the more which was just absolutely totally
fascinating, going as far as he could without breaking any great
secrets for which he would get himself in trouble.
BR: Is that off record, Paul, what he told you, the more? Are you able
to share any of that with us?
PH: The only thing I will share is that he confirmed that there had
face-to-face discussions between United States military or United
States officials and the visitors from other planets.
BR: Was that the famous Eisenhower meeting in 1954?
PH: He didn’t specify any particular meeting. Just that the...
blanket statement that there had been face-to-face discussions.
PH: So with this assurance, then I felt absolutely convinced and ready
to go public, as I did five years ago.
BR: Okay. Now, after your public statement in September of 2005, you
then must have been on the radar of a lot of other government
ministers, government officials, intelligence agencies, military
personnel in several different countries, and some of those people
may have been friendly, with the same kind of humanitarian concerns
as yourself. Did anyone approach you, off record, saying, ‘Paul,
I’m delighted that you’ve come forward. I can confirm
this. I’ve been on this journey. I’ve had my own
verifications.’ And anyone who came to you to help you build
your understanding of what was happening, on or off record.
PH: On a certain level, yes. I’ve had lots of people talk to me. I
was just a novice at the time, five years ago. Since then, I have not
only read many, many books and many, many documents, some previously
classified and others not. And people have contacted me with their
own personal experiences and confirmed all sorts of things from
actually having seen one of the vehicles, having been inside a
crashed vehicle, and all sorts of verifications of one kind and
another. But this was really related to the people at the working
level rather than at the governmental level, although there were some
government employees, of course, included in the list.
BR: Okay. Is there anything from those subsequent contacts and meetings
that you can share about consolidating and deepening your
understanding of the bigger picture? Because while the summary of
what you’ve stated so far will not be unfamiliar to many people
listening to this, but there are so many questions. And one of the
questions that a lot of people are concerned about… Actually,
there are two questions, really.
is about the agendas of the visitors, and almost everyone who I know
who studied this in depth understands that there is more than one
group and there may well be more than one agenda, and they may not
all necessarily have the welfare of the human race close to their
hearts. And the question that is sort of allied to that, is there is
a huge amount of circumstantial evidence, and perhaps it’s even
more solid than circumstantial, that the military of the world are
preparing for something, defensively. Underground bases, classified
programs that go way beyond the technology that NASA has, that might
be a lifeboat program in case planet Earth really hits a hard time.
this something that you’ve looked at? Do you know anything
about that? What are your opinions about what we may be going into?
Not just about global warming and the financial system and the way
we’re trashing the planet. But is there something else going on
which is leading the military to take defensive measures, and what
role do any of the ETs have in that?
PH: Well I, of course, don’t know the answers to all the
questions. I know that there are a number of species, and, as you
suggest, some may be more benevolent than others. It is my feeling
that most, if not all, are benevolent.
have only two bits of evidence in the whole panoply that I have
looked at that raise any doubt in that, and they are, one, from
alleged briefings of U.S. presidents by the military in the United
States, in which they have said that there was one species that was
not friendly. Well, I’m not totally cynical, but if I were part
of the military-industrial complex, and I wanted to spend a few
hundreds of billions of dollars more gearing up to take on the star
visitors for size, that’s exactly what I would say. I don’t
know whether it’s true or whether it’s not true. If I had
to bet, I don’t know. It would be a close call, but I would
certainly want everyone involved in the whole cover-up to swear under
oath who those people were and to provide evidence and back up their
statements with hard evidence, because without it, I would be
there’s one book I read that had some instances where it
appeared [that] some of the visitors had been less than friendly. But
in each case, you would have to raise the question as to whether or
not they were the trouble makers or whether we started it. Whether we
took them on for size and they retaliated or defended themselves as
they might have considered it.
again, I think we need a lot more evidence than we have so far before
we can take any sort of a definitive stand on that point. Now, as far
as their agendas are concerned, as you suggest, if you have more than
one species, you probably have more than one agenda, and it could be
that in some cases they are primarily interested in genetic material
to produce hybrids, using human genetic material to mix with their
own, and that they may like our planet as a summer playground to
stop-off on when they’re on vacation or whatever. They may have
been taking some of our resources, I really don’t know. There
are some people who think that they’re so sophisticated that
they could take resources from the mountains or the seas and get away
with it, and we would probably never even know about it.
when you talk now about the counteroffensive measures, it’s
hard to know what they’re related to. There are some people who
say, ‘Well, the cabal, in conjunction with those rich people
who have been controlling things, are working out an escape plan to
take a few fortunate people off the planet to another planet in the
event of a catastrophe here.’ Well, you know, that’s a
good story and is there any truth in it? Who knows? I don’t
know. It’s becoming increasingly feasible, I would say,
guessing on how far they are probably advanced, far, far more
advanced in the technologies that they have available than any of us
have been told.
just one more reason for full disclosures, Paola Harris calls it, and
a lot of other people. And one more reason why Congress has to start
prying some of this information out and getting it into the hands of
the public and all cross-examination under oath. And with one other
caveat that I mention in the book – it wasn’t original
with me. It came originally from the star visitors and then through
one of my people that I interviewed at great length – and that
is an amnesty…
BR: This is Jim Sparks, isn’t it?
BR: Yeah. I know Jim. We’ve spoken to him.
PH: And Jim and I talked at great length and he gave me permission to
quote from his book at some length, where I went into this question
of the amnesty, just copying what he had from the extraterrestrials.
And I can understand why, because they have broken just about every
law in the book here, they, the cabal, the shadow government, and
there is no way most of them would give testimony, probably even
under oath, if they thought they were going to spend the rest of
their lives in jail for doing it.
amnesty, I think, is an essential part of the whole thing, and then a
very systematic cross-examination by some of the best legal talent in
the United States, and just determine to get all the facts bit by bit
until the whole picture is out and understood.
BR: Right. Now, if you've spoken at length with Jim, and he has some
extraordinary stories to tell. Let me just explain, for the benefit
of anyone listening to this who doesn’t know who Jim Sparks is.
He is a multiple abductee. He has been abducted hundreds, if not
thousands, of times. And, initially, he put up what could be called a
‘brave fight.’ He resisted and he swore at them and he
refused to be controlled.
eventually, he grew to trust these extraterrestrials, realizing that
they were functioning in a very different way from the way that
humans were. And as he trusted them, it seemed that they then shared
more information with him about what it was that they were concerned
about. Would you agree to that summary?
PH: Absolutely, yes. Very good.
BR: Yeah. And one of the things he grew to understand that his
were concerned about, was a possible future that didn’t look
very good at all. And of course, this is a running theme among
contactees and abductees, and people who have had dreams and visions,
and goodness knows what. And it does tie in with what we were talking
about a few moments ago, about what seem to be defensive preparations
that the military of various countries seem to be taking.
my own view about this, is that the future is not fixed and we do
have choice, we do have free will and it may be that there are some
probable and improbable futures, but we still have a degree of
control over where we are headed, and that the visions or the
information that has been presented to us by, for example, Jim
Spark’s abductors, may be more of a warning than a prediction.
And I wondered what your view was about that, because having spoken
so deeply with Jim, you must have spent a lot of time thinking about
this as well.
PH: Absolutely, and I think you are absolutely right that the future is
uncertain. This is really what my book, ‘The Light at the End
of the Tunnel’ is all about. Saying we have been given the
power of choice as to what we are going to do, but it depends totally
on what we do as to what the future is going to be.
we can blow up the planet. We have more than enough nuclear material
to make the planet uninhabitable totally. And if we were ever crazy
enough, if we ever had a lunatic in charge of one of the stock piles
and they decided to use it, it would be goodbye Earth, certainly for
most of us, if not the great majority of us.
the same thing is happening to a lesser extent with the global
warming. So we have choices there.
then the third area that I raise in the book, which is related, of
course, in a direct way, is changing the banking and monetary system
so that individual governments have the financial resources to
finance the transition from the old regime of the oil consumption to
the new exotic fuels, and also from a military-industrial priority to
a peaceful priority.
are tremendously expensive undertakings involving trillions of
dollars, and if you look at the way the system is being run now, with
them agreeing to cut back and balance budgets and do all of these
things, then there is very little hope for the planet, because
governments are not going to have the financial resources to do what
we have to do physically.
just to add for the benefit of anyone who says, ‘Well, what
then do you do?’ And I, of course, have been promoting for 60
years, that governments are going to have to end the private bankers’
monopoly to print money and to take back some of that power, and to
share the money creation process between the governments on behalf of
the people who own the patent, and the private banks who have been
exploiting it for their own benefit now for a couple of centuries or
if we do that, then we would have the resources to meet the problems
of poverty and poor health and all of these things, and to, at the
same time, finance the transition from fossil fuels to exotic fuels.
So this all ties in and this is all choice, but at the moment, in
this area in particular, we are making all the wrong choices. And
that is the reason I was so active at the time of the G20 and hoping
for a little common sense and was so disappointed when I didn’t
see any, and will continue the fight in the months and years ahead if
I still have strength to do it.
BR: Now, are these choices being steered by an elite group which
actually don’t want to release this technology? They don’t
want to reform the financial system. They want to keep a financial
grip on the planet. Or do you think that that is dissolving and
melting away in some way and they are looking for ways to come clean?
The announcement of the Vatican last year about our brothers and
sisters under God might be an indicator that they are looking for a
way to disclose what they know. I wondered if you felt that you could
trust the insiders enough, to feel that there really was a genuine
hope that things could actually unfold in a positive direction?
PH: I personally don’t believe that that is likely. I think you
could find some individuals who would think that way. But they are
not the ones who have been in charge; they are not the ones who are
in control. And I think you have to separate the Vatican sort of
preparatory pronouncements and changes in policy. I think that is to
prepare people for getting a little bit of knowledge, which is
already coming out from several governments where they are releasing
files, but the most primitive of files that really say nothing that
isn’t well known by everyone who has even taken a few minutes
to study this whole matter.
when it comes to the hard evidence of what has been achieved in
back-engineering and the new exotic fuels and changing the banking
system, I think that the tightly-knit little group is just as
powerful and just as all-pervasive today as it has been, and that
this is probably the number one problem when it comes to looking at
the future of the world.
BR: So what can be done, then? Do you really think that the kind
congressional hearings for example that are advocated by Stephen
Bassett and others can actually pry open this oyster’s shell
that is so tight shut and has been for such a long time. What do you
think the process would be? If you could fast forward in this movie
for the next ten years to a good ending, what do you think it might
look like? And what can you and I and the people listening to this do
about this? Or are we just helpless spectators?
PH: I think the, realistically, nothing is going to happen without a
popular revolution. And by a revolution, I don’t mean people
taking shotguns and baseball bats. I’m talking about a
revolution of the mind and heart which would be sufficiently
widespread that people would say to their elected representatives,
‘Unless you do certain things we will not vote for you,
is the only thing that politicians understand, because on the other
side, you have this powerful group that we were just talking about
who have all the money, most of the potential for propaganda through
papers and other media that they own. They are the top dogs and they
know it and they have been enjoying it and they like to enjoy it, and
hope to continue enjoying it. So they can control the congresses and
parliaments of this world to a considerable extent by simply
discreetly financing the campaigns of people who are not too critical
and who are not likely to spend too much energy challenging them.
the only way to really change that, is to get the kind of popular
movement which, ten years ago, would not have been possible, but with
the Internet, is increasingly possible, where millions of people
around the world say, ‘Hey, political buddy of mine. Change
your ways and do A, B, and C or don’t count on my vote. And on
the contrary, I will vote against you if you don’t do
something, because this is just so serious.’
I think, as improbable as it seems, that that is the best hope. A
little public education wouldn’t hurt. Of course, it’s
all part and parcel of getting the kind of massive movement that I
was just describing and hoping for and praying for. But it is hard to
get it out. I just succeeded, a couple of weeks ago, in getting a
piece on monetary reform in the main English language newspaper in
the City of Ottawa, the capital of Canada, and it was a real
took a month to get the editor to agree to print it, simply because
this is one of the three things that the mainline press embargo, and
I list them in my book. They are the monetary system, the banking
system, total disclosure of the extraterrestrial presence and
technology, and the negative effects of globalization; and they just
don’t print these things. So it was a tiny breakthrough, but at
least it is the kind of thing that gives you hope and keeps you
BR: That was one of the questions that I wanted to ask you, because you
are so high profile and you are so well known in Canada that one
would have expected the mainstream media to jump all over you after
your revelations in September 2005. But it sounds as if that hasn’t
happened. It sounds as if you have been sort of quietly ignored,
because nobody really knew what to do. Is that right?
PH: At the beginning, it was worse than being ignored. They took
interest in asking what I was going to say when I spoke, but then
didn’t report anything that I did say. It’s only, I
guess, in this last twelve months or so, that there have been any
reports in the mainline press on this subject of the extraterrestrial
presence that haven’t had an element of ridicule or that have
been straight, and just reported the facts as presented to them. So,
at least that much is encouraging.
BR: Do you see signs of what you described earlier as a popular
revolution? In the five years that you've really been involved in
this topic, have you seen or felt things change around you? Do you
feel that there are signs of hope?
PH: I would have to say yes to that. There have improvements, both on
the side of disclosure – more people are coming forward. There
are more whistle blowers. There are more books being published. Some
of them as fiction, but still revealing a lot of facts – and
then this improvement in the popular media. Several people have been
on the ‘Larry King Live Show,’ where they have discussed
they usually have a debunker on with them, like the argument over
global warming or nicotine: you get both sides and confuse it. But,
nevertheless, there has been some considerable improvement in the
mainline treatment of the subject of the extraterrestrials, and I
think this is a significant move forward. And if we could just get
the same kind of thing going now with the banking issue, that would
give me also great hope. So, yes, but on a scale of one to ten, we’re
maybe at one now, and we have got to get up to six or seven before we
get the kind of popular movement we really need to change the system.
BR: Understood. Are your colleagues, your colleagues ex-ministers,
people in the armed forces, for example, in Canada and in other
countries, the people who you are bound to be talking with
back-channel, are they saying to you, ‘Well, I guess I support
what you are doing, but I’m sure pleased that you’re
doing it because I don’t dare do it myself because of the
repercussions,’ or are you playing a role in encouraging other
high-profile figures to come forward with what they know? Because you
can’t be alone in your understanding of the situation at a high
PH: I would be very hesitant to encourage someone who is 40 years
younger than I am and had a family, to speak too openly…
PH: …because I understand the risk involved. There would be or
has been, traditionally, quite a considerable risk. And the whistle
blowers are not really appreciated by the cabal and its cohorts in
the intelligence communities. One has to be a little careful there.
At my age, I figure it doesn’t matter. There isn’t much
they can do about me except put me under, which is going to happen
PH: And it’s a risk I’m quite willing to take, but if I were
40 years younger and my family were still in school, I don’t
want to mislead you into thinking that I would just stand up and put
my head on the chopping block, because I’m not the least bit
sure that I would. I just don’t know what I would do under
BR: That’s extremely honest of you and I salute your courage. But
on the other hand, presumably, knowing that this interview will be
listened to by people who are in some considerable positions of
authority... This interview will be listened to by the military and
the intelligence services. These people are doing their job. It is
naïve to think otherwise. Is there something that you would want
to say to them, knowing that you have an opportunity to talk to them
PH: Yes. There is safety in numbers, and this is the encouraging part
what is happening now, with so many people speaking out: you reach a
critical point where they just really can’t discipline all the
people who are beginning to tell the truth. And if you get enough
people telling the truth, why then, I don’t think that there is
likely to be any repercussions. It just wouldn’t be feasible on
their part any longer.
BR: That is very well said. I would add to that, if I may, by saying
that there are probably a lot of people, on the inside, who signed up
for political service or for service in the intelligence agencies or
for service in the military when they were young men and women,
really sincerely believing that they were doing the best thing they
possibly could do to make the world a better place. And then they
get lied to, just in the same way, by those forces and factors who
want to control them.
then they are in a very difficult situation, because they are on the
inside, they've got security clearances, they have signed their oaths
of office, they have families to worry about. But some of these
people must be deeply troubled, because what they signed up for isn’t
the game that is actually being played around them.
I guess I would urge those people to have the courage to come
forward. Because if we do have that safety in numbers, it’s
going take some of those people to come out first, and of course, you
are among those first to come forward. So now I wondered what you
could say to encourage those people to follow your example?
PH: I think it would be very brave of them and I think it would be one
of the greatest contributions that they could make to society. I know
that there are people who feel that way, because I have talked to
people who feel that way. They feel absolutely betrayed by what they
have learned from the inside, but stepping out and risking all is a
big decision, and it has to be weighed very carefully. So I never
criticize people who won’t do it, while at the same time, if
they are in a position where they can take the risk, I certainly
encourage them to.
know, it was the same way in Cabinet. I went through a number of
Cabinet colleagues who, at one time or another, wanted to resign
under question of principle, which I had done. And they didn’t,
simply because, for them as individuals and as heads of family, they
felt that the risk that they were taking was too great.
anyone who can take the risk or who is so profoundly certain that
they have a responsibility to humanity to speak the truth, why, more
power to them. That’s just what we need at this particular
juncture, in particular, when every time I pick up a newspaper, I see
more cases of betrayal by public servants and others, milking the
system for their own benefit, committing all sorts of things
I just say to myself, you can’t run the kind of world that we
are all hoping for and that is possible, and that is really essential
for the long-term benefit of the planet, unless the people start
acting in a more moral and spiritually-inclined way. I think that is
probably the overriding, or overarching, aspect of what people have
to do as they face the future on this broad front.
BR: That’s a wonderfully inspirational message, and thank you for
being so clear and eloquent about that. As you probably are aware,
there are an increasing number of young people who feel just as
passionately as yourself. I get messages from teenagers, sometimes,
who are far more concerned about the world than I ever was when I was
18 years old. And I’m very impressed with a lot of the young
people, their sense of responsibility, their strength of passion,
their awareness of the problems in the world that they have been born
into. What message would you have for them, because it is very easy
for a young person to feel very powerless, isn’t it?
PH: It is. You're absolutely right, and many of them are a real
inspiration. And I just say, all the best to you. Keep it up. Because
some of them have tremendous power. I’m a supporter of an NGO
operating in Lesotho, where the Chairman of the Board was recruited
into the business by her son, by her teenage son, who heard about
this at school, and who came home and said, ‘Mother, we’ve
got to do something about this.’
so, from someone who was just on the sidelines before, the mother was
recruited and is now the Chairman of the Board, a tremendous
influence and a tremendously positive development. I guess there has
to be more of that. We hope and pray that these idealistic young
people remain that way and don’t get seconded as they go along
and people start putting pressure on them for various reasons of
BR: It has always seemed to me that there has to be significant hope
ahead. Otherwise, [laughs] these young people wouldn’t be here.
They wouldn’t be here on planet Earth as souls having
incarnated, as it were, whatever one’s spiritual model might
be. These young people are coming in hundreds of thousands, and they
seem to be reporting for duty, almost. It’s like, ‘Here I
am; give me a job; tell me what’s happening. I want to get
going. I realize the problems.’ And, I just wondered whether
you shared that view to any degree.
PH: I think it is a very profound spiritual orientation, not
religious, but very spiritual. And whatever it is, it is the kind of
dedication and vision and inspiration that, as you put it, is the
only hope of the world.
BR: Well, that [laughs]… that is… that is so true. And
there are significant numbers of young people who will be listening
to this, and I myself am on the wrong side of 50, and I dearly would
love to be an angry energetic young 18-year-old ready to take the
world on. Somebody I knew, just a few days ago, we were talking about
anger, and they postulated a wonderful equation that I would like to
share with you. And they said that, ‘Anger plus love equals
that really made me stop and think. I wrote that down straight away.
[laughs] I thought that was an inspiring little formula.
PH: As long as you are angry about the right things, it’s
absolutely true and it’s a powerful statement. But I would say,
don’t worry about being on what you call the wrong side of 50…
PH: …all I can say is, it’s just yet to come.
BR: [laughs] You are so right. I have been delighted with this
conversation. Is there anything else that you would like to cover,
you would like to say, you would like me to ask you, you would like
to ask me? Is there anywhere else you would like to go, or do you
feel, as they say in Hollywood, ‘This a wrap.’
PH: I think we have pretty well covered the waterfront. There are so
many things, but we have touched most of the important buttons, I
think. And if we could just start by getting people of vision and
hope and dedication to educate themselves, as to what can be done.
And then recruiting others, starting with the youngest of the young,
and carrying on. Then a miracle could happen, and miracles are
book on economics, called, ‘A Miracle in Waiting,’
indicates that we could revolutionize the world by changing the
banking system. We could revolutionize the world by spending the
money that we spend on arms, on building houses and providing
healthcare, and portable water for the people who don’t have
any. There are just so many miracles in waiting if we would just get
out there and make them happen.
we can’t just wait around for intervention from
extraterrestrials or anyone else. We have to do it, because that is
what we are here for. And if we were all to work together, we can
make the miracle come alive, and be thankful that we were part of it.
BR: Beautifully said, and it is a very inspirational title to that
Let me ask you possibly the most difficult question here, and that
is, are the benevolent extraterrestrials just watching and hoping
that somehow we are going to pull off this miracle, or are they in
some way subtly steering us along, and supporting, and intervening in
non-obvious ways. What are your views on that?
PH: My views are very strong. I think they are pulling for us. They’re
cheering for us. They want us to succeed. They want us to maintain
the planet as a hospitable habitat for our species and for their
visits, and perhaps maybe for some migration. I don’t know. I
think for the most part – and this goes back to the interviews
I’ve read that people had 50 or 60 years ago – they are
pulling for us and they are on our side. And they just wish that
under their rules, they were allowed to intervene directly, but
apparently they are not.
they can do is help and pass along information, and they are doing
that as best they can. But, it must frustrate them considerably that
we are such slow learners and that we are so slow to act on the
things that are obvious to them, and which they think should be
equally obvious to us. So what we have to do is become more familiar
with what they are saying and what their concerns are, and then
incorporate those into our daily living. And perhaps do a little less
grandstanding and trying to be the hero of the thing and working more
as a team, team world, to make our world the kind of place we want it
BR: A team world. Yeah, that is a good concept, isn’t it? Okay,
Paul. Is there any last word that you would like to say, as a final
PH: Thank you for a great interview. It has been a real pleasure to
BR: Well, thank you. I hope this is not the last time we talk, and I
really want to extend my admiration and congratulations to you for
having the courage, in your position, to stand up so tall and to say
all the things that you have been, and to be an example not only for
your own peers but also for the younger people of the world. And I
really want to thank you on behalf of everyone for the role that you
PH: Well, you are very kind and I do appreciate it.
BR: Paul, thank you so much. Wonderful interview. I’m very
grateful to you. [pause] Hello, Paul, are you there?
PH: Yes, I’m still here.
BR: [laughs] Okay. All right, good. I think that’s a great wrap
and I’m really delighted and I do want to thank you personally
PH: You are not exhausted?
BR: No, not at all. No no no.
PH: Was it…
BR: The night is yet young. It’s only ten o’clock here.
PH: Well, if you come to Canada, why, give us notice and we’ll buy
you dinner or something or other.
BR: That would be a very great pleasure. I will let you get on with
busy day, and thank you so much for everything that you are doing to
help the world be a better place. Bless you and thank you so much.
PH: Not at all. Thanks a million. Bye.
BR: Good bye.
here for the audio interview
| Support Project Avalon
- make a donation:
Thank you for your help.
Your generosity enables us to continue our work.